Apple.com blocked in China?

[MacRumors]

According to one report, Apple.com appears to be blocked in China and has been for the past 3 weeks.

[BakedBeans]

According to one report, Apple.com appears to be blocked in China and has been for the past 3 weeks.

Any Reason??

[Digital Hybrid]

Why would China want to block apple.com?
It would have made sense if it was North Korea who was blocking, but China? China is one of the most "western" asian countries.

[Wonder Boy]

could it be technical issue as opposed to a economic/political? im going to go with technical. it doesnt make much sense otherwise.

[ingenious]

maybe M$ has a deal with China. Maybe They're going to start a worldwide revolt against the United States!

LOL

ne way

it must be a glitch or the great firewall of china has something to do with it. :mad:

[Digital Hybrid]

it must be a glitch or the great firewall of china has something to do with it. :mad:
Which has lasted for three weeks? Don't think so.

[hedgecore]

they are deffinately thinking more freely every day, but maybe the govt doesn't think that they are ready to "think different"...

haha

[ingenious]

Which has lasted for three weeks? Don't think so.

then what about the Great FireWall of China?

[AmigoMac]

for the people there, attached to a PC for ever :( , Maybe it's because they are going to start soon a Linux project and don't want people to know about other OSes :( , or is it because lot of apple products are assembled in Taiwan?, Unlikely but sometimes someone has to give the stupid reasons and wait goos reasons from the next people... :o

[Digital Hybrid]

then what about the Great FireWall of China?
May be. But the "why" still remains :p

[JeffTL]

or is it because lot of apple products are assembled in Taiwan?

Well, Apple uses fabrication plants in Communist China as well, if I recall, so that seems unlikely.

[Mr. Anderson]

According to one report, Apple.com appears to be blocked in China and has been for the past 3 weeks.

very strange - but where's the link to the *report*?

D

[junior]

very strange - but where's the link to the *report*?

D

maybe it's just one user having a specific problem with a provider? I had that problem once.

[mrsebastian]

m$ is buying china?! :eek:

[Demon]

strange... because technically, i am living in China...
but i go to www.apple.com... daily, almost religiously! haha. don't seem to have a problem.
but i don't know, maybe it's just me?

[paulbarton]

"Maybe They're going to start a worldwide revolt against the United States!"

LOL


"START"!!! ? ... you're joking right?

[Digital Hybrid]

strange... because technically, i am living in China...
but i go to www.apple.com... daily, almost religiously! haha. don't seem to have a problem.
but i don't know, maybe it's just me?
may just be certain regions in China that are having problems then.

[wdlove]

This story is sounding better. Just hope that the glitch will be corrected soon!

[qubex]

I live in China and I can confirm that Apple.com has been blocked for the past three weeks or so.

This is not unusual - they were blocked for a long time during November, too.

It isn't a glitch - there is definitely some form of logic to what sites are blocked, though it is often haphazard. For example, cnn.com has always been available since I arrived in China back in November, but news.bbc.com has always been blocked. However, it doesn't really affect me because:

(1) I get all my Apple news here.
(2) All the "collateral" Apple webservers - AppleDeveloperConnection and .Mac operate fine.
(3) Softwareupdate works fine.
(4) If push comes to shove, there are always proxy servers...

Actually I'm relieved to see this report - sometimes I'm not sure whether it's problems with my internet connection (and/or DNS server) or Chinese "Great Bamboo Firewall of China" policy decisions. The former is easier to overcome (fix it), but it also requires activity on my part.

Oh well.

[ryanw]

Well, I know there are ways to work around the "great firewall of china", but the biggest problem with blocking apple.com isn't getting just the "apple news". It's if you ARE running OSX and wanted to do software updates n' stuff, you'd be unable to patch your system with security updates or software updates.

[dizastor]

I just found out there actually is a "Great firewall of china"... I'm so disappointed that it wasn't just a joke. :(

[qubex]

if you ARE running OSX and wanted to do software updates n' stuff, you'd be unable to patch your system with security updates or software updates.
It is www.apple.com that is blocked. As I mentioned, softwareupdate and .mac work fine in China. I live here. I should know.

[qubex]

It is www.apple.com that is blocked. As I mentioned, softwareupdate and .mac work fine in China. I live here. I should know.

My guess - and mind you it is only a guess - is they don't want people to find out about Final Cut Pro HD, or Motion. The authorities here seem to be very sensitive about anything that can be used for the purposes of creating good-level content.

Probably once those products are gone from the mainpage (are they still there?) the site will be re-enabled.

Incidentally could one of you be so kind as to post a screenshot of the Apple website as it currently stands? That would be very useful for the purposes of "differential censoranaylis". ;)

[junior]

My guess - and mind you it is only a guess - is they don't want people to find out about Final Cut Pro HD, or Motion. The authorities here seem to be very sensitive about anything that can be used for the purposes of creating good-level content.

Probably once those products are gone from the mainpage (are they still there?) the site will be re-enabled.

Incidentally could one of you be so kind as to post a screenshot of the Apple website as it currently stands? That would be very useful for the purposes of "differential censoranaylis". ;)[

I don't understand... How are TV ads, programs and movies edited if they don't use stuff like finalcut, avid or inferno?
I worked with a production company from China last year for an ad they were making for China and the producer had a powerbook with Final Cut on it.
Why would the government hide what is already known and used by people?

[qubex]

The difference lies between "people", as a potentially subversive rabble, and "the producer", who is supposedly "authorised" (business licences etc.) to peddle his trade.

But it's only a guess. Once one of the border guards asked me if my "Apple computer" had "Movie" on it. In the end I had to trash iMovie. But no panic - iLife '04 CD in my backpack.

After you live here for a while, you tend to realise certain things are impossible to decypher. You just accept, move on, and wait for them to change - because they usually do... in unpredictable directions.

[lostngone]

They still have www.mammals.org. I knew that would come in handy one day!

[centauratlas]

That is what you get with a socialist/totalitarian state. It sucks for Apple, but it sucks even more for the people who are controlled by their government.

[crees!]

Hey the Rolling Stones were banned. I believe ColdPlay is banned as well... what's new?

[Awimoway]

Incidentally could one of you be so kind as to post a screenshot of the Apple website as it currently stands? That would be very useful for the purposes of "differential censoranaylis". ;)

If mammals.org doesn't work for you, here's this:

[BillClinton]

maybe M$ has a deal with China. Maybe They're going to start a worldwide revolt against the United States!

LOL

ne way

it must be a glitch or the great firewall of china has something to do with it. :mad:

the chinese government hates Microsoft. I think they were trying to create their own linux distro

[micvog]

Wasn't Apple, the computer company, in some kind of legal fight with Apple, a Chinese clothing manufacturer, over who had the legal right to the name "Apple"? If so, I wonder if this is China taking sides?

[windowsblowsass]

They still have www.mammals.org. I knew that would come in handy one day!
hey you foroit www.iphone.org

[nagromme]

Wow, that's almost as scary as things are here in the US!

[hob]

But it's only a guess. Once one of the border guards asked me if my "Apple computer" had "Movie" on it. In the end I had to trash iMovie. But no panic - iLife '04 CD in my backpack.

After you live here for a while, you tend to realise certain things are impossible to decypher. You just accept, move on, and wait for them to change - because they usually do... in unpredictable directions.

Ummm.... :eek:

I guess a lot of us take freedom of speech/expression for granted - my god that's completley random! Video editing software as basic as iMovie (i'm not knocking it! i love it!) is illegal now?! Think i'll stick to Japan on my tour of asia... :P

Hob

[chuckzee]

why would they block it? apple has a presence in china.


http://www.apple.com.cn/

[pimentoLoaf]

Didn't PRC buy into AST as the official nationwide computer company a few years ago? That would mean that China prefers Mr Bill to Mr Steve.

[encro]

as well as http://www.apple.com.cn there is also http://www.asia.apple.com

I don't see what the big deal is?

[Steven1621]

i question the political significance of this happening, and more so there is little support to the rumor.

[coumerelli]

hey you foroit www.iphone.org

eh hmm.... ikids.com (http://www.ikids.com)

[SoGood]

Yes, I have also heard the same for a few weeks. A number of other possibilities,

1. Maybe Apple wants more people to make use of their Chinese language site <http://www.apple.com.cn/>? Is it possible for the block to be on this end? I gathered that their Chinese site had an update not too long ago, along with a all Chinese discussion forum.

2. Some pirate web site has an IP address that is close to Apple's? And the bamboo blocked a range of IPs.

From my other observation is that Apple has been lost to the bulk of broadband subscribers while not to many of the dial-up users. And yes, there's regional difference too. All very interesting!

[mustang_dvs]

This is really nothing new, and highly unsurprising. Mainland China has consistently blocked the ability of the majority of its citizens to have access to non-Official news and is highly restrictive of the individual's ability to spread ideas that are not explicitly approved. I don't get why people are so willing to excuse and explain this away as a corporate plan or DNS error - the Government is blocking the site. (Thankfully, at least, the PRC's IP blocking seems to be provincially-based, and is not universally managed, meaning some people in Shenyang get sites that those in Beijing don't, and vice-versa.)

While the Government has become much more savvy about how it restricts individual freedoms (expression, in particular) since the 1989 Tiananmen democracy protests, it has also become much more effective in its "fight" against dissenting opinions. No longer does the government arrest en masse, instead, they make surgical arrests and detentions. Internet access is much more widespread in urban areas, but the use and navigation is monitored and restricted. Many iconic American websites are blocked, as are British and a majority of western news sites are blocked.

It also makes a great deal of sense as to why the Beijing regime would fear Apple - although a relatively elite brand, it often advertises via both populist and rebellious messages and it seeks to ease the ability to share and present information. Final Cut and iMovie, in particular represent a great threat in a nation suffering widespread illiteracy and generally poor education amongst the majority of its citizens. Images carry much greater impact than any pamphlet, newsletter or book.

In part, this is because of the continued secessionist desires of the muslim Uighur people in the west and because of the increasing use of well-crafted homemade video messages within the largely uneducated Islamic world - the Chinese fear the impact that a well-made, persuasive and iconic underground video might have if it were to spread, not just amongst the already discontent Xinjiang province, but through just part of China's larger population.

(Few people realize that the primary reason why the Daniel Pearl video so shocked defense analysts was not because of the brutality of the murder, but the relatively sophisticated and compelling arrangement of the message portions of the video, which used complex image layering, synchronized music and very effective titling - elements previously unseen in video messages released by islamic fundamentalists which had a persuasive impact in western Pakistan, the eastern Caucuses and other parts of central Asia where literacy is low and the faith in images runs high - something which Hezbollah and Hamas have been relying upon for years with billboards and flyers.)

Beijing is also acutely aware of what happened in the Soviet Union, when dissidents were ignored and then deported -- a large network of sympathizers upset with the regime's repression used an underground network of hand-copied and mimeographed pages to spread the ideas of Sakharov and Soletsnetsin, even while in exile. The mainland government realizes that you can't arrest a concept, you can't kill ideas. Imagine what one person could do with a popular website and a small web-movie.

Even Hong Kong is being pulled closer and closer to the political and personal repression suffered by the mainland, with restrictive elections, mainland military presence and the recent "visit" by the largest PLA Navy flotilla to sail in years.

And I take exception to those people who make the "amusing" inference that somehow what is going on in the U.S. is worse. No, I'm not happy with the practices of the current, very secretive and stubborn administration, but we have it 10,000 times better here than every single person in China -- and come November, we at least get the choice to throw these clowns out on their arses, unlike the Chinese mainlanders, who didn't even get a say in who the CPC Central Committee chose (Hu Jintao) to act as Jiang Zemin's personal puppet after Jiang reached the mandatory 'retirement' age (Jiang still controls the military, a first amongst 'former' PRC leaders).

[singletrack]

Hey the Rolling Stones were banned. I believe ColdPlay is banned as well... what's new?

So it's not all bad then. ;-)

[xy14]

hey you foroit www.iphone.org
You also forgot www.ipodrocks.com (http://www.ipodrocks.com)

I love how Apple makes these weird names. Also, the Chinese government sucks, so just somehow get out of there and move to the US or at least eastern Europe (not the middle east though).

[Makosuke]

Thanks, mustang_dvs, for the detailed lowdown on the logic of the Chinese government as it at least might relate to this issue; that's more or less what I've gathered from the people I know who're studying or living in mainland China, but you laid it out pretty clearly there.

This does point out just how futile it must feel for the traditionalist Chinese government to be trying to plug the holes in the dike trying to hold back information and popular dissent from the outside. Truth is, with the waves washing back and forth between freedom and crackdown gradually wearing away at the power of the state, it just doesn't seem like this anomaly in Chinese history is going to last much longer, and it might not even take a bloody revolution to get it there.

[PerMalum3]

Wasn't Apple, the computer company, in some kind of legal fight with Apple, a Chinese clothing manufacturer, over who had the legal right to the name "Apple"? If so, I wonder if this is China taking sides?

In the June issue of MacAddict they talk about this legal fight. "Apple is the grieved party in this trademark dispute with China's Guangdong Apples Industrial (www.apples.com.cn), which produces leather accessories and apparel bearing a logo similar but not identical to Apple Computer's." Perhaps this is why Apple Computer is blocked in China. Does anyone know if Apples Industrial is blocked over there as well?

[Chaszmyr]

I guess China doesn't want thier people to Think Different.

[G5orbust]

China censoring stuff? What a novel concept...

[rinseout]

For example, cnn.com has always been available since I arrived in China back in November, but news.bbc.com has always been blocked. However, it doesn't really affect me because:

I don't think news.bbc.com resolves for anybody, but news.bbc.co.uk (http://news.bbc.co.uk) does.

[qubex]

If mammals.org doesn't work for you, here's this:
mammals.org, whatever it is, is blocked too. Thanks for the screenshot.

Notice how the chinese one at www.apple.com.cn does not feature iTunes 4.5 or Motion, nor the new laptops. Any one of those items could be the reason for the blockade.

[qubex]

i question the political significance of this happening, and more so there is little support to the rumor.
You have people living in China, myself included, confirming this fact - and you still say there is "little support"?! Are you joking or what?

As for the BBC URL: My bad. I haven't typed it in so long I forgot what it was meant to be! But yeah, it still doesn't work, even when I type the right one. :mad:

[mustang_dvs]

Again, why does anyone actually think that this is a technical glitch or typographic error?*

As it is, I wouldn't be surprised if Beijing isn't also blocking environmental websites -- the PRC is tearing itself apart environmentally and socially and it's trying to take the world with it.

China's indigenous automotive industry (in which Jeep of China is one of the most popular brands) has emission standards that lag about 15 years behind the rest of the world (currently, Chinese auto makers must meet the obsolete "Euro 2" standard (Euro 4 kicks in next year in the EU), a regulation just enacted by the government). SUVs are becoming increasingly popular and it is expected that within 3-5 years, the Chinese SUV market will be larger than the American market. This, of course, is unusual, given that the average car sells for 10 times the average annual wage (vs. US figures where the average auto is priced at 70-85% of the target groups average annual income). This continues to expand the Chinese gap between the emerging upper-middle consumer class and the poor, uneducated, agrarian-environment majority.

As it is, China already burns more coal than any other nation and is the largest producer of greenhouse gases in the world. Furthermore, since the population is becoming increasingly urban and the ground in central and eastern China is particularly ill-suited to farming, the PRC has one of the highest rates of deforestation and is suffering severe topsoil loss and floods exacerbated by the use of mountainsides as farmland.

But Beijing's government is trying to put on a good face, not only for its population, but for the rest of the world - through such measures as rushing the 3 Gorges Dam, which some studies indicate will cause a great deal of long-term environmental damage on the rivers and newly-enacted fines intended to discourage the practice of public urination and defecation common not only in rural areas, but urban centers, as well. (They're concerned that the rest of the world would be aghast if such things happened while visitors were attending the 2008 Summer Games in Beijing.)

Of course, the ugly truth is that the PRC is as corrupt and repressive as ever, even moreso since the power-hungry CPC has also found material wealth by embracing an open-market and laissez-faire economy (versus the doomed command economy which undermined the Soviet Union in the late 1970s and early-to-mid-1980s.)

About the only nation that could be considered more repressive and paranoid about outside influence is the DPRK (North Korea), which has about 100 approved internet users (entirely within the power elite) and manufactures specialized televisions and radios that only receive uncommon frequencies which Pyonyang uses to ensure that the TVs and radios are only receiving official broadcasts. (Most North Koreans are so disconnected from the outside world that they believe that Kim Il Sung, "Great Leader" invented electricity, the internal combustion engine, the airplane and television and that North Korea is so wonderful compared to the rest of the world, that everyone, especially Americans, would do anything to take over that little patch of heaven. They've also been led to believe that Kim Jong Il, "Dear Leader" was prophetically born atop Mount Paektu, rather than in a Soviet Gulag - which wouldn't have been such an emphatic portent of his "eventual" role as world leader and that the majority of the people who died in the recent train explosion died in valiant attempts at saving pictures of him.)

So, yeah, I guess the Mainland Chinese people do have it pretty good... compared to the wonderland that is the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea.

* Note: A recent series of "typographic errors" found within official statements by the Government of Nigeria indicated that the Governments of Pakistan and North Korea were providing technical and material assistance in Nigeria's new effort at developing and manufacturing nuclear weapons. (The foreign and defense ministries both later retracted the statements, owing them to mis-typed information.)

[iMan]

I just found out there actually is a "Great firewall of china"... I'm so disappointed that it wasn't just a joke. :(

Oh well, you do know that there is one for the US of A also? And all other countries...
And btw: BB is watching you... ;)

[iMan]

While the Government has become much more savvy about how it restricts individual freedoms (expression, in particular) since the 1989 Tiananmen democracy protests, it has also become much more effective in its "fight" against dissenting opinions. No longer does the government arrest en masse, instead, they make surgical arrests and detentions. Internet access is much more widespread in urban areas, but the use and navigation is monitored and restricted. Many iconic American websites are blocked, as are British and a majority of western news sites are blocked.

mmm... sounds like the old censorship is still there, yes... let me see, some other big issues this year about censorship... ahh.. yes, SUPERBOWL :D oh, yes.. and the ingenious Paul Bremer - introducing democracy by banning newspapers... a wonderful concept LOL

Ahh.. behold the delirious' right to free speech - and the ability to look for other reasons than the slavery that comes of history ;)

[fixyourthinking]

I live in China and I can confirm that Apple.com has been blocked for the past three weeks or so.

It isn't a glitch - there is definitely some form of logic to what sites are blocked, though it is often haphazard. For example, cnn.com has always been available since I arrived in China back in November, but news.bbc.com has always been blocked...

Actually I'm relieved to see this report - sometimes I'm not sure whether it's problems with my internet connection (and/or DNS server) or Chinese "Great Bamboo Firewall of China" policy decisions. The former is easier to overcome (fix it), but it also requires activity on my part.

I think this could be partially due to some people updating to the latest version of Airport

You bring up another point of sarcasm: CNN.

If the letters CNN mean anything it is: Communist News Network . The reason you don't get the BBC News is because occasionally they will have a story that's reported with some thought and insight based on reality or not politically motivated. (Though rarely)

[Shagrat]

As it is, China already burns more coal than any other nation and is the largest producer of greenhouse gases in the world. Furthermore, since the population is becoming increasingly urban and the ground in central and eastern China is particularly ill-suited to farming, the PRC has one of the highest rates of deforestation and is suffering severe topsoil loss and floods exacerbated by the use of mountainsides as farmland.


Well the USA isn't exactly the "good Guy" when it comes to GHG emissions, either, George Bush and his mates in the Oil business seem to have scant regard for the arguments for reducing GHG emissions. Let alone their environmental (lack of) policy in areas like Alaska, etc.
INteresting graphs on a "by country" comparison can be found here.

http://www.grida.no/db/maps/collection/climate6/

Also interesting to note that if these figures are correct, that the UK is almost down to the levels agreed on by the Kyoto meeting. Wheras the US...

SO, when in the next few decades the Gulf Stream conveyor switches off as a result of global warming, and Britain ends up with the same climate as Alaska, we'll know who to blame, then!

[SoGood]

Mustang_dvs, you have way too much time. Or you are obssessed driven by a complex.

[amnesiac1984]

SO, when in the next few decades the Gulf Stream conveyor switches off as a result of global warming, and Britain ends up with the same climate as Alaska, we'll know who to blame, then!

I thought that was disproved and that we get most of our warmth from air currents as opposed to sea currents. We do get lots form sea currents and it is the reason why our summers are relatively mild and winters are not too cold, I think we will have very hot summers and very cold winters if the gulf stream goes to crap.

[Shagrat]

I thought that was disproved and that we get most of our warmth from air currents as opposed to sea currents. We do get lots form sea currents and it is the reason why our summers are relatively mild and winters are not too cold, I think we will have very hot summers and very cold winters if the gulf stream goes to crap.

Apparently not. It would seem that past events which have turned of the gulf stream have coincided with periods of severe drought in the tropics and severe cooling in northern europe. Plus the winds pick up or lose most of their heat from the sea as they approach, in our part of the world, the Atlantic, or North sea.
One of the most worrying measurements that has been recently discovered is the sudden decrease in salinity of the area north of Greenland where the conveyor dives down to the sea floor, thus constituting the "return leg" of the gulf stream. This is in part due to the ice cap on Greenland itself thinning at a markedly increased rate, compared to only 15 years ago. The glaciers there have increased their speed by 150% during this time. So the fresh water run-off (thus the decease in salinity in the area) is interfering with the return flow. Also, the big russian and siberian rivers which also contribute to the increase in fresh water in this area of the sea just compound the problem. All directly linked to a warmer climate.
What could happen is that the Titanic would be unlikely to get far from Southampton without encountering icebergs, if it were to be launched in the next 50 years. Possibly 20.

[herrmill]

I live in Shanghai & have noticed the same for 3 weeks. No conspiracy running through my mind; it's just something you come to expect. For weeks I could not gain access to several certification agencies that are big for business over here & now they are all open. Even my favorite porno sites are back!

[Irafas]

No-one's mentioned this but there are a whole lot of movie trailers at apple.com/trailers that maybe the Chinese government don't want their citizens to see.

And the person *technically* in China? Please say either Hong Kong or Taiwan - it's misleading to say otherwise and there's no great firewall in either of those mini-states.

[qubex]

I live in Shanghai & have noticed the same for 3 weeks. No conspiracy running through my mind; it's just something you come to expect. For weeks I could not gain access to several certification agencies that are big for business over here & now they are all open.
Yeah, I know what you mean - it's just normal around here, too. I remember back in December the whole Sourceforge website was unavailable, so not having access to www.apple.com is rather minor.

I don't know if you have noticed, but using Pod2Go I somehow get all the BBC news right on my iPod, even though I can't access BCC News over the web. Weird. Very, very weird. But useful!

And the person *technically* in China? Please say either Hong Kong or Taiwan - it's misleading to say otherwise and there's no great firewall in either of those mini-states.
I live in Guangzhou by the way - as my location identifier notes - that is within the Mainland. Not Hong Kong, not Taiwan, and not even Macau. The Real Deal.

[qubex]

I get most of the news I need by RSS. God bless the bloggers!

[Traveler]

Truth is, with the waves washing back and forth between freedom and crackdown gradually wearing away at the power of the state, it just doesn't seem like this anomaly in Chinese history is going to last much longer, and it might not even take a bloody revolution to get it there.

Actually, studies of the human condition have shown that throughout history the vast majority of humans have lived under the rule of some type of autocracy. Democracy is not a new concept, nor does it require high technology, and yet very few societies have adopted this form of government. Even today, over half the world's population live in states ruled by authoritarian leaders who maintain their power through force and intimidation.

This observation has led many reputable scholars to conclude that subjugation is a default human preference. That we prefer to live under the protection and guidance, but also whimsy and cruelty, of singularly strong individuals. This is not to say people dislike choice, simply that we naturally abhor the responsibility that comes with it and prefer to pass it on to those relatively "anomalous" individuals who enjoy wielding power.

Even in a supposedly democratic nation such as the United States you can see evidence of how the population readily offers up their freedoms on a platter to appease a highly fallible leader simple because he scolds those who dissent. Bad journalists! Knock me in your article and I won’t let you on my plane. Bad citizen! Speaking out against me and my cronies during a time of war is unpatriotic!

So, no, the current Chinese administration is not an anomaly. In fact, the emperors of yore yield equally broad powers, and their citizens didn’t hold the modern tools of communication at their fingertips. I certainly hope China finds it way to elected leadership and full democracy but I’m not holding by breath. And if, and when, it comes… it will be as much a result of outside influence from the bigger kids in the nation block… like the US… as it is because of spontaneous internal changes of policy.

Feudalism continues to persist in the modern world. The only thing that has changed is the scope. Today, it is larger than ever. Powerful global hegemonies push around smaller states to serve their own interests. I believe the US has shown time and again that it is willing to kill, destroy, backstab, colonize, mold and otherwise dominate any entity that threatens the status quo power distribution.

[dizastor]

I just found out there actually is a "Great firewall of china"... I'm so disappointed that it wasn't just a joke.

Oh well, you do know that there is one for the US of A also? And all other countries...
And btw: BB is watching you... ;)

Damn. My calendar is 20 years fast... I didn't realize it was 1984.

[F/reW/re]

That is what you get with a socialist/totalitarian state. It sucks for Apple, but it sucks even more for the people who are controlled by their government.
And what do you get for living in the land of the "free"..? Kids running around playing war in the schoolyard with real guns...

[nagromme]

Side note: iTunes is now getting pre-installed on PCs by China's largest supplier, Founder.

[fixyourthinking]

And what do you get for living in the land of the "free"..? Kids running around playing war in the schoolyard with real guns...

But stupid parents are found worldwide

[F/reW/re]

But stupid parents are found worldwide
Stupid parents dont give birth to killers, it's the envirement, the influens, the life they grow up in that deside who they will be.

[qubex]

It's the combination of unsound environment and influences (media, etc), coupled with an inadequate level of education - which stems at least partly from the media aspect.

This is totally off-topic, but has anybody here ever read Amusing Ourselves to Death? It's a study of the influence of TV on political and social life in the USA. It was published way back in the early 1980s (remember that? the Regan years?) but it has turned out to be highly prophetic. I really suggest you go and read it if you have the chance.

[Puppies]

Responding to 3 separate people here, but I’m just running it together.

That is what you get with a socialist/totalitarian state. It sucks for Apple, but it sucks even more for the people who are controlled by their government.

China is neither a Socialist, nor Communist state. Just saying they are doesn’t make it so. They’re totalitarian, period.

And I take exception to those people who make the "amusing" inference that somehow what is going on in the U.S. is worse.

Obviously what’s happening in the United States is nothing compared to China (and it’s in very poor taste IMO for anyone to say that), but what’s happening in the U.S. is still inexcusable.

No, I'm not happy with the practices of the current, very secretive and stubborn administration, but we have it 10,000 times better here than every single person in China -- and come November, we at least get the choice to throw these clowns out on their arses

Do we? We didn’t vote Bush in. He won neither the popular, nor (more to the point) electoral vote, and yet he’s acting as President. The really scary thing is that the election was as close as it was. In a well educated society, Bush would have received almost no votes at all (maybe his close family and friends, and the super-rich, but that’s it). The so-called “conservatives” have done a brilliant job manipulating the media and the populace to their ends.

Actually, studies of the human condition have shown that throughout history the vast majority of humans have lived under the rule of some type of autocracy. Democracy is not a new concept, nor does it require high technology, and yet very few societies have adopted this form of government. Even today, over half the world's population live in states ruled by authoritarian leaders who maintain their power through force and intimidation.

This observation has led many reputable scholars to conclude that subjugation is a default human preference. That we prefer to live under the protection and guidance, but also whimsy and cruelty, of singularly strong individuals. This is not to say people dislike choice, simply that we naturally abhor the responsibility that comes with it and prefer to pass it on to those relatively "anomalous" individuals who enjoy wielding power.

That’s such a croc. Democracies require a well educated populace, that’s both knowledgeable and capable of THOUGHT. That’s difficult to achieve, and the natural tendency is for those in power to want to remain in power, gather more power, etc.

Just because most people have lived under totalitarian states doesn’t mean a person fully educated about the possibilities would willingly choose that.

Even in a supposedly democratic nation such as the United States you can see evidence of how the population readily offers up their freedoms on a platter to appease a highly fallible leader simple because he scolds those who dissent. Bad journalists! Knock me in your article and I won’t let you on my plane. Bad citizen! Speaking out against me and my cronies during a time of war is unpatriotic!

And it’s sickening, isn’t it. Sometimes I almost think we deserve Bush.

Going even further off topic, this thread shows how important it is to keep modern technologies and communications OPEN. Yet another reason we don’t want all this DRM crap. People NEED information and communication to help them get a real idea of what’s going on in the world, and challenge it.

Feudalism continues to persist in the modern world. The only thing that has changed is the scope. Today, it is larger than ever. Powerful global hegemonies push around smaller states to serve their own interests. I believe the US has shown time and again that it is willing to kill, destroy, backstab, colonize, mold and otherwise dominate any entity that threatens the status quo power distribution.

Yup. Also completely disgusting.

“If the provisional government asks us to leave we will leave," Bremer said, referring to an Iraqi administration due to take power June 30. "I don't think that will happen, but obviously we don't stay in countries where we're not welcome." :D

[F/reW/re]

“If the provisional government asks us to leave we will leave," Bremer said, referring to an Iraqi administration due to take power June 30. "I don't think that will happen, but obviously we don't stay in countries where we're not welcome." :D
You mean where there's no oil.
I wish all americans know what people around the world think of when they hear the letters USA. I can tell you one thing, its nothing close to freedom!

USA will not be the "world leader" for much longer if they keep on acting like they do!

God bless THE WORLD

[good citizen]

All of this speculation is pretty funny. You guys will grasp at just about any straw to find a reason for something that happens in the world of Apple.

The reason apple.com is blocked in China is because of their hosting of "Grass Born to be Stepped On: Women's Rights in China," the first-place winning entry in the iLife Educator Awards competition this year. The ILife awards are not on apple.com.cn, therefore that's why that site is not blocked. Look at the information that they are allowing and what they're not. It's easy to discern.

http://www.apple.com/education/ilifeawards/project_grassborn.html

[yamabushi]

I am constantly amazed by companies that ignore or accept the political risk of doing business in China. Apple could build computers just as cheaply in India, Thailand or the Philippines without the political risks to business involved with dealing with a totalitarian government. If the Chinese government interferes with your business, you lose money. It doesn't make sense to ignore the large and rapidly growing Chinese market but you can reduce risk and improve productivity by concentrating on other parts of Asia and transporting products to China by truck, train, or ship.

[ClimbingTheLog]

strange... because technically, i am living in China...

What do you mean, "technically"? Are you living in Taiwan or something (which technically has nothing to do with this).

[ClimbingTheLog]

Wasn't Apple, the computer company, in some kind of legal fight with Apple, a Chinese clothing manufacturer, over who had the legal right to the name "Apple"? If so, I wonder if this is China taking sides?

My thinking too - the timing is to cooincidental. The Apple t-shirt company probably got an injunction against the website or something equivalent in their whacked legal system. Y'know, guilty until proven innocent and all.

It's amazing that such an oppressed people can turn out such damn good food. Damnit, now I need to go get some dimsum. Thanks guys.

[Traveler]

All of this speculation is pretty funny. You guys will grasp at just about any straw to find a reason for something that happens in the world of Apple.


I both agree and disagree. While this thread started off with some pretty lame (and humorous) conjecturing about the causes of Apple's blockage, it switched tracks midway and then moved well beyond Apple. While I generally read this board for Apple related news my comments this time had nothing to do with Mac. Rather, I saw an opportunity to engage in thoughtful conversation with several participants who clearly held reasoned global viewpoints.

Incidentally, while your theory is far more sound than most of the others it is not necessarily correct. As some have mentioned, the logic behind the firewall is often lacking. Moreover, the bamboo is not nationally effective. Therefore, your imperious and condescending tone is both unwarranted and ironic.


I am constantly amazed by companies that ignore or accept the political risk of doing business in China. Apple could build computers just as cheaply in India, Thailand or the Philippines without the political risks to business involved with dealing with a totalitarian government. If the Chinese government interferes with your business, you lose money. It doesn't make sense to ignore the large and rapidly growing Chinese market but you can reduce risk and improve productivity by concentrating on other parts of Asia and transporting products to China by truck, train, or ship.

India suffers from dreadful infrastructure. Roads, electricity grids, ports and plumbing are at least 30 years behind China. So, while the labor costs of producing computers in the Sub-Continent might be on par with the PRC, Apple would either have to lay down serious upfront cash to build a decent facility with reliable supply lines or put up with subpar operating conditions with even more instability than it currently experiences in Taiwan.

Thailand isn't really set up to manufacture hi-tech equipment. They are a center for textiles and clothing manufacturing but essentially it is a small environmentally sensitive country whose potential (and actual) eco-tourism value is much higher than it would be to strip its rainforests only to play industry catch-up with already established neighbors. Taiwan is, afterall, fairly buffered from the political instabilities of the mainland.

You may have a point with the Philipines. Although, I believe it shares many of the same traits and concerns that I described for India and Thailand.

On a slight tangent... the Apple site being down in China is really no big deal at all. Most people don't speak English there (Trust me, I know from experience dude) and couldn't give two hoots if the English website isn't up. As long as apple.com.cn is still running the only people affected are obsessive weiguoren who should probably be focusing on making the most of their cultural experiences rather than surfing apple's website. Apple's major problem in the region is its relative expense. In a country where even U.S. beige boxes can't compete with the beige-er than beige Chinese knock-offs, an apple computer selling at $1000 or more is a ludicrous expense affordable to very few.

I do somewhat agree with your point about corporate responsibility though. You weren't really arguing this but I strongly believe U.S. companies have an obligation to export not only their products but also the ideals that allowed them to exist in the first place. And I'm not just talking about cut-through meritocracy.

[ClimbingTheLog]

Thailand isn't really set up to manufacture hi-tech equipment.

It was reported that the hard drives in the iPod Mini are being made in Bangkok.

I strongly believe U.S. companies have an obligation to export not only their products but also the ideals that allowed them to exist in the first place. And I'm not just talking about cut-through meritocracy.

Hey, we're not treating people in third world countries worse than we treated our slaves pre-civil-war, we're giving them opportunity. If it wasn't for us they'd just be gathering mud all day long.

[herrmill]

I think what the earlier posting basically referred to was that China has a better overall infrastructure for high tech companies than India, Thailand, etc.. Another consideration be the relationship Apple has with companies that they have used in the past for OEM work. Components are made all over Asia & have been for years, but most of the companies Apple subcontract their box & notebooks manufacturing to are Taiwanese-based companies & logically most of these have factories in China to take advantage of the lower labor costs. G5s & iPods are currently made here; notebooks in Taiwan.

Let's just hope Apple's quality standards for China-made product is higher than what Sony Ericsson allows on their mobile phones - my Chinese-made T68 is a piece of crap compared to the original model I use in the States!

[taos_ranch]

On a slight tangent... the Apple site being down in China is really no big deal at all. Most people don't speak English there (Trust me, I know from experience dude) and couldn't give two hoots if the English website isn't up.

Very true. If the site's currently being blocked, my suspicion is that (as mentioned above) the reason is either some IP business conflict or, more likely, similarity of the URL to that of the HK Apple Daily. Taiwan/Tibet/Hong Kong/Falungong are the hot-button areas that seem fair game for censorship and Apple Daily is one of the most anti-mainland in tone.

At the same time, many of the comments in this thread about "totalitarianism" in China strike me as so oversimplified as to be silly. China is a vast place, with different regions having greatly differing languages, cultures, governmental practices, and local customs. The central government tries to pretend it's in charge, but for the most part that's far from clear. And judging from my anectdoctal experience traveling around and speaking with people, many average Chinese welcome central government intrusion--they're seen as the *good guys*, protecting the working people from abuses by local authorities. Compared with a generation ago there's much more freedom of speech, with extensive private criticism of all manner of formerly forbidden topics. China's internet policy and it's clumsy use of firewalls (built by Sun and Cisco, word has it) are as much part of a struggle within the bureaucracy to create new fiefdoms and gain power as they are about squelching ideas. In short, the situation is far messier and more complex than it seems from 1000s of miles away.

[herrmill]

Very true. If the site's currently being blocked, my suspicion is that (as mentioned above) the reason is either some IP business conflict or, more likely, similarity of the URL to that of the HK Apple Daily. Taiwan/Tibet/Hong Kong/Falungong are the hot-button areas that seem fair game for censorship and Apple Daily is one of the most anti-mainland in tone...

...China's internet policy and it's clumsy use of firewalls (built by Sun and Cisco, word has it) are as much part of a struggle within the bureaucracy to create new fiefdoms and gain power as they are about squelching ideas. In short, the situation is far messier and more complex than it seems from 1000s of miles away.

Very correct you are - the situation is far messier & harder to quantify that some of what has been suggested as a cabel of red communists running a "great firewall" office in Beijing. I live & work in Shanghai & can't access many sites that we use for our sourcing business half of the time. We just called China Telecom asking why UL's www.ul.com website is blocked at my office yet I can access at my apartment from 3km away! Same goes for the NY Times website. Go figure!

[meta-ghost]

At the same time, many of the comments in this thread about "totalitarianism" in China strike me as so oversimplified as to be silly. China is a vast place, with different regions having greatly differing languages, cultures, governmental practices, and local customs.

i'm with you. why can't americans understand that accidents of history can lead another land on a different road. china has problems no other nation faces. nearly 20% of the world's population. it has, existing simultaneously, every type of economy imaginable (the village, the industrial revolution, the high tech, and everything in between). somehow, someway, we demand they mimic us now.

american's were recently aghast at the fact the government shut down "internet cafes" within a certain distance of schools. looked like censorship straight and clear. well i can tell you something about it. i lived in beijing and used those cafes. and the typical visit was as follows: enter thru doors to a room with about 40 large computer screens. one young girl would be in the back typing an email to a friend and the other 39 screens with young men in front of would have nothing but the worst pornographic material you've ever seen.

was the government wrong? maybe. but there are a few fcc restrictions i'd like to talk about.

i don't mean to go easy on what are most certainly repressive elemants in the chinese government. awful things do happen. but the government is also full of people who do genuinely care about china.

[ClimbingTheLog]

it has, existing simultaneously, every type of economy imaginable (the village, the industrial revolution, the high tech, and everything in between). somehow, someway, we demand they mimic us now.

Are you suggesting liberal democracies don't scale past a certain number of citizens?

Most of the great western democracies were founded in an agrarian society and progressed through all of those stages. Some states such as India are very much in all of those stages now as well. Yet we find from those examples that Stalinist human rights abuse is not a necessary condition for a state in those various stages of development.

[mustang_dvs]

Great catch, Good Citizen! Here's the link for those behind the Great Firewall: http://www.mammals.org/education/ilifeawards/



Mustang_dvs, you have way too much time. Or you are obssessed driven by a complex.

Hmm... well, 1) I'm stuck at home with a nasty cold, 2) perhaps you noticed that I'm in D.C. -- did it ever occur to you that, perhaps, I work in something related to foreign/national security policy? (In fact, my principal focus has traditionally been on former-Soviet and Chinese issues, though since early 2000, I've been focused almost exclusively on violent fundamentalist islam.), 3) I read newspapers, news magazines, books and occasionally watch the news and PBS's Nova (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/worldbalance/) -- perhaps if you did you'd be aware of a few of these things, too...

[iMan]

Hmm... well, 1) I'm stuck at home with a nasty cold, 2) perhaps you noticed that I'm in D.C. -- did it ever occur to you that, perhaps, I work in something related to foreign/national security policy? (In fact, my principal focus has traditionally been on former-Soviet and Chinese issues, though since early 2000, I've been focused almost exclusively on violent fundamentalist islam.), 3) I read newspapers, news magazines, books and occasionally watch the news and PBS's Nova (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/worldbalance/) -- perhaps if you did you'd be aware of a few of these things, too...


He he, you gotta be joking... no? :D

[meta-ghost]

Are you suggesting liberal democracies don't scale past a certain number of citizens?

Most of the great western democracies were founded in an agrarian society and progressed through all of those stages. Some states such as India are very much in all of those stages now as well. Yet we find from those examples that Stalinist human rights abuse is not a necessary condition for a state in those various stages of development.

i'm not at all suggesting that. what i am saying is that there are no other examples (past or present) that work as a model for china. it has all of the "stages" of world history(since the village) exist simultaneously in 20% of the worlds population. this isn't a small point. it's a huge burden.

having lived in china, i'm perfectly comfortable that a liberal democracy can exist there. i'm expecting it. it's just not going to happen overnight no matter how much we want it to.

[KingJobs]

Apple might be trying to save their Chinese presence now with the whole Apple-Founder deal regarding iTunes. :confused:

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/may/18founder.html

[mustang_dvs]

He he, you gotta be joking... no? :D

No, I'm not kidding. What makes you think that I am?

I don't work for the Bush Administration, but I do work for a think tank that serves more or less in an advisory role for the White House and Pentagon -- however, my recommendations and warnings fell on deaf ears from December 2000 until September 11 and during most of the planning and execution of the 'liberation' of Iraq and the subsequent occupation.

And yes, my formal education was in Soviet/former-Soviet and Chinese affairs and strategic/tactical military analysis, but since early 2000 a vast majority of my work has involved researching, assessing the threats posed by and advising courses of action regarding violent radical islamic groups.

And yes, I have an unusually persistent head cold and feel like a$$.

[qubex]

i'm not at all suggesting that. what i am saying is that there are no other examples (past or present) that work as a model for china. it has all of the "stages" of world history(since the village) exist simultaneously in 20% of the worlds population. this isn't a small point. it's a huge burden.

having lived in china, i'm perfectly comfortable that a liberal democracy can exist there. i'm expecting it. it's just not going to happen overnight no matter how much we want it to.
I've been living and working in Southern China for more than six months now, and from what I can ascertain, these people are not ready for liberal democracy. Much as I admire their culture and social resilience, I don't see the Chinese population as an aggregate whole possessing the necessary forebearance, altruism, education and civic sense to institute self-governance.

At the moment, as far as I can see it, the PRC Central Government is pretty much the glue holding the country together, rather than the Universal Subjugator some here have mentioned. I'm not a fan of many of their policies - far from it - but running a country such as China is a truly hapless task.

Note: I am not an anthropologist nor a sociologist, and I'm not yet a political analyst - but I am an economist. So take my comments or leave them.

[meta-ghost]

And yes, my formal education was in Soviet/former-Soviet and Chinese affairs and strategic/tactical military analysis,


say 'stang, how much time have you spent in china? how is your hanyu/guoyu?

[mustang_dvs]

say 'stang, how much time have you spent in china? how is your hanyu/guoyu?

I studied tactics and policies, not literature and culture, so I have very little hands-on experience with the Chinese. Since you weren't specific about "which" China - I've never been in the PRC, spent a couple of weeks in the ROC and my Mandarin is extremely basic - which could prove embarrassing in two weeks when my boss and I have dinner with Ambassador Yang at his residence.

[meta-ghost]

I studied tactics and policies, not literature and culture, so I have very little hands-on experience with the Chinese. Since you weren't specific about "which" China - I've never been in the PRC, spent a couple of weeks in the ROC and my Mandarin is extremely basic .

sorry 'stang but i have a problem with what you've done in this thread. you've presented one of the longer analysis on why and how china is a totalitarian state and you've never even been there. while this isn't necessarily always a pre-requisite, it's usually best to lay your cards on the table early. people will then know where your coming from.

china is a funny place. the more you spend time there and think you understand it, the more it surprises you. people who travel to only beijing come away with the idea of an incredibly controlled place. it just so happens that everywhere else is complete chaos. i've lived, studied, travelled and worked in china for 16 years. speak a bit as well. in between reading this thread, i'm actually working on a project in guilin and was there 4 weeks ago.

needless to say, studying military tactics and policies without the benefit of fieldwork can leave one subject to outdated ideological thinking and political gamesmanship. spending time there, on the other hand, will blow away all preconceived notions.

one of the things that struck me about this thread was the strong reaction when someone suggested we in the u.s. get our own act together certain issues. in my youth, i once spent an evening with mairead corrigan (who had won the nobel peace prize in 1976) and i was eager to talk about what we as americans can do to get rid of totalitarian states and fix human rights abuses around the world. she let me know in no uncertain terms that the most useful thing i could do would to fix the problems here, not somewhere else. the words were of course more poetic but time has lost them. the point being, people would do better to focus on (and bring into every discussion) our own problems with economic differences, unequal schools, the death penalty, handguns....

[mustang_dvs]

Well, meta-ghost I'm truly sorry that I don't yet have the life experience that you do... but I've only just turned 25. (Or 26 for those living in either of the two Chinas.)

I never stated that I was all-knowing or superbly experienced. And I never said that this country is perfect. I simply stated verifiable facts about the systematic repression of personal freedoms (including access to information and the ability to share opinions) and the continuing decline of the environment within mainland China, which could have severe humanitarian and economic consequences within a decade, not to mention the global repercussions.

But at least I realize that I am young and that I have much to learn and experience and that my opinion is not carved in stone. If only national security work paid better (no one ever said non-profit work was glamorous -- if I'd wanted to make money, rather than a difference, in D.C., I'd have gone to law school or become a lobbyist), I'd travel the world. ;)

[qubex]

Well, meta-ghost I'm truly sorry that I don't yet have the life experience that you do... but I've only just turned 25. (Or 26 for those living in either of the two Chinas.)
I hate to point this out, but the "time since conception" thing really is an anachronism. I've never encountered anybody here in China who really does that.

So, without puttinig too harsh a point on it, perhaps a little insight into the underlying cultural subtext would be in order. It's not that I don't respect academia and so forth, but knowledge deprived of context is a very dangerous thing indeed.

"Knowledge is a powerful thing to have underhand,
But I'd gladly give it up if I could only understand."

[pawn]

here ya go screenshot of apple.com
the snap shot was taken on the 19th of may
http://everlasting.fastpalaces.com/apple.jpg

[PTM]

You know, I have read this message board from time to time, but never had the desire to contribute until now.

Mustang_DVS: I envy your job, but you are full of it. Close your textbook and experience the world outside of acedemia and the beltway. China is in no way comparable to the DPRK. The way you preach the gospel, you'd think you'd been to hell and personally met the devil. But anyway, enjoy the Koolaid.

I've only been here a while, and I realize that I've only been to a few cities, but I have to say, China is not such a bad place to be. The people are great, society is remarkably open, and most people here are well aware of what is and is not real. You can buy the Economist, read almost any website you want, order any book, CD or DVD that Amazon carries, buy ANY movie on the street for $1.00 (not that I am in favor of piracy - but access is not controlled).

Yes the news can be full of mild propoganda, but at least here (as opposed to the US) people know it and don't care. Fox "Fair and Balanced?" That's not only propoganda, but a lie.

It is true that some websites are blocked. For example, I can get to bbc.com, but not the news page. I am quite sure that I visited apple.com within the last week or two. I downloaded ITunes yesterday, though at a whopping 564 bps. It took 6 hours.

On the upside, I have a 2 MBit dsl at home for 1500RMB per year. That's less than $200, and anyone can get it - I don't live in special "Laowei" housing.

As far as a border guard asking if a laptop had iMovie? That's crazy. I can believe it, but it is in no way the norm. At PuDong airport, you can watch thousands of people stream off airplanes from all corners of the globe. They have like one customs guy, and I have never seen them stop anyone. On the other hand, they screen everyone with thermal cameras to see if you have SARS. (Humorous sidenote - Shanghai, a city of 18 Million, had 8 cases of SARS. Toronto had 400 or 500. But because of the scare, they clean elevator buttons here every two hours. Yes - I know that Beijing had a lot of cases and that the government initially hid them from the WHO.)

Anyway, back to the good. There are great restaurants, great shopping, amazing history, and people here love to have fun. It is commonplace to see people dancing on the bars singing at the top of their lungs on any given Wednesday. Image isn't everything here, people can just be. There is almost no crime of any sort. Shanghai is far safer than any American city, with very few violent crimes. Theft is not much of a problem. There are pickpockets, but many of my friends (Chinese and Expat) don't lock their doors - even when they are not there. (I think people are afraid of the punishment.)

Okay, yes, there is a lot of bad. It can be very badly polluted, especially in Winter. It is crowded. There are a lot of poor people. Healthcare is a bit sketchy, though there are Western Clinics. The government does target and harass certain groups and people, often without cause. When Beijing was bidding for the Olympics, I heard they actually painted the grass green when the IOC cam to visit.

Anyway, I digress. My point is - all sorts of rumors fly around the expat circles here. The cab drivers are trained to listen to foreigners, hotel rooms are bugged, blah blah blah. Don't talk about Taiwan or Hong Kong or Tibet. Big Brother is watching and listening and if you slip up, you are gone to a labor camp for life.

It simply is not a significant factor in daily life. The quality of life is great, the people are wonderful and friendly, love their kids, pet their dogs, want to live the "American Dream" of owning a car and a flat and occasionally vacationing by the beach. And they are starting to.

So instead of talking about how horrible life is in "Communist China," come and visit.


P.S. - Allow me to preempt. No I am not Chinese. I do not work for their government or any agency or contractor of their government. I am not an apologist. I have not consumed and Koolaid since arriving in the PRC. I am not trying to minimize human rights abuses or the plight of those people and groups persecuted by the government. It concerns me as much as it concerns you. Are you doing anything about it...?

[qubex]

Censorship or no censorship, we're still able to post here, right? :D
This place is not North Korea. Unpleasant sometimes, but we're a trillion parsecs from that kind of lunacy.

It may have been that way back in the day, but not now. Not anymore.

[iMan]

No, I'm not kidding. What makes you think that I am?

Because:
1. You speak as you've seen the worlds come and go - and yet you say you are only 25 years old and sit put in a country with merely 200 years of history with your brains full of ancient theories
2. China is a vast and complex society - largely agricultural/early industrial - finally moving to open up to the world, something which has not been done - nor been needed - for thousands of years (!) (remember this country was an empire of proportions you americans will never obtain thousand years before USA even existed - that actually gives people some kind of heritage - you should experience it).
3. USA is a highly complex societey - largely high-tech - decidedly closing themselves to the outside world. This actually based on one (in historic perspective minor) incident. The US government is increasingly controlling its own people, censoring the news - all for the "best of the people" - this should sound familiar to you...
4. Within the next 50 years EU, India and China (+ maybe some other areas) will all have passed the US as the major forces in the world; economically, industrially and technologically - one thing you might actually still have is the military - and frankly; it scares me a lot!

I just hope Apple is still there making great experiences for me then :)

[Jerry@Beijing]

As a 100% Chinese and a huge Apple fan, I often visited this site, as well as other major English apple sites, looking for interesting information about Apple and its stories. I never wanted to post anything, maybe because there are very few China related threads here. This is the first China related rumor and I have to say I hate it.

Before I get off the topic, let me say that I did notice that apple.com was sometimes, not always, inaccessible recently, because I visit apple.com more than ten times a day. I have no problem visiting apple.com at work (maybe because I work for an American company, but this is off the topic.) I called Apple China office and they said I was not the first one who called them for this issue. They have sent their employees to various Internet Cafes on the streets but found out Apple.com worked just fine. Their local site, by the way, has been up all the time. One interesting fact I would like to point out is that when I visit apple.com at home, it was much much slower than other English apple sites, such as macworld.com.

Local Chinese apple fan sites, such as www.macfans.com.cn, also reported this problem and offered links to some proxy servers that can help connect. Nobody made a big deal of it, by the way. Chinese mac fans, in general, care more about where to buy the cheapest mac computers and how to use them, as they are so expensive to us and not 100% localized. (There are Chinese mac fans, however, who spend their six or even 12+ months income on their macs.)


Now please forgive me to get off the topic to say a few words about my country. As many people pointed out in this thread already, China is a big, diversified country with 20% of the world's population and a history of more than 5000 years to deal with. We have a lot of problems, some of the ones stated earlier in this thread are not included though, and there are a lot Chinese people, in power or not, are trying their best to make China a better place, for our 1.3 billion folks, for foreigners who choose to visit and spend their time here, for the rest of the world. We are the ones that care about this land most, more than anybody else in the world. Moreover, we understand this land and the people living here the best. Sometimes, we do make mistakes, but we are the first victims of those mistakes, and we are the first ones to take actions to correct those mistakes. We welcome and take suggestions from other cultures whenever and wherever we see appropriate, but we do not see that the United States, or any other country, is a "city upon the hill" for us to look up and follow. We also respect other nations and their values, and we don’t try to impose our values upon them.

When people asked me why I don't move to the United States and make 10 times or even more than what I am making now, I said I don’t agree with a lot of American values, and above all, I love China, because of and despite of a lot of things. As we say in Chinese “A child should not be shamed of his/her not-good-looking mother.” Interestingly, this thinking is somewhat shared by the American culture. I was told that many Americans think the United States is the best place in the world, despite its many problems. The difference might be China does not intent to make the rest of world Chinese, but the United States goes out of the way to do so.

Finally I would like to share a short story that I read as a little child but only understand its meaning until a couple years ago.

A little horse is stopped by a monkey before he is about to go across a river. "The river is very deep," said the monkey, "a friend of mine got drowned in it and died yesterday." The little horse hesitated but thinks he needs a second opinion. So he asks an OX nearby, "is the water deep?" "Not at all, it just got to my ankles," answered the OX. Confused and puzzled, the little horse goes back to see his Mom, who says to him, "why don't you try it out by yourself?" So he did. The water is not as deep as the monkey said, nor is it as shallow as the OX told him.

Welcome to China everyone. Sometimes you love it, other times you may hate it. It is a real world.

------------------------------------------------------
I am sure that one day I can afford a mac in China.

[paulbarton]

For what it's worth, I don't think many countries look up to America.
Most people in the UK are becoming aware of Americas dreadful foreign policies that have angered so many people around the world. I just wish I was exposed to less US culture (it's hard to avoid) and more from other places (such as China).

Do we really want perfect hollywood smiles masking poor educational standards?.. and as for the fast food!

[qubex]

Not to swerve off on a complete tangent, but I for one have grown completely disillusioned with the concept of America. "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Quite frankly, noble as the concepts may be, all I see issuing forth from American officialdom is a neverending stream of hypocrisy and crass injudiciousness. </rant>

I shall not pursue this line unless provoked.

"Hell hath no fury as an idealist scorned."

[iris_failsafe]

Every country screws up, the US did it, punish the guilty and move on.


As for this China thing, it is a dictatorship, buying a mac doesn't compensate for freedom and access whatever page you want to

[mhar4]

For what it's worth, I don't think many countries look up to America.
Most people in the UK are becoming aware of Americas dreadful foreign policies that have angered so many people around the world. I just wish I was exposed to less US culture (it's hard to avoid) and more from other places (such as China).

Do we really want perfect hollywood smiles masking poor educational standards?.. and as for the fast food!

Ahem... I hate to point this out, but the UK is the US's number 1 ally and has followed US foreign policy lock-step for years.

And as for the food! Have you eaten food in the UK???!!! The worst food in the world.

[mhar4]

I've been living and working in Southern China for more than six months now, and from what I can ascertain, these people are not ready for liberal democracy. Much as I admire their culture and social resilience, I don't see the Chinese population as an aggregate whole possessing the necessary forebearance, altruism, education and civic sense to institute self-governance.


Well, people said that about the Taiwanese for years. Including many Taiwanese themselves. Same goes for China, and you'll hear many Chinese saying that 'the people' aren't ready for democracy. But hey, look at India. Less educated population overall, but with a democracy that just about works. It's communism followed by robber-baron capitalism that has attenuated civil society in China.

Note: I am not an anthropologist nor a sociologist, and I'm not yet a political analyst - but I am an economist. So take my comments or leave them.

I *am* a sociologist specializing in China and Taiwan.

[iMan]

It's communism followed by robber-baron capitalism that has attenuated civil society in China.

With a good deal of help from western opportunists, I might add... :)

Still; why do we in the west always want things to change right away (to what we see as right) - MTV like action? Why can't we let this process in China just follow it's course - it will be a rightful democracy in time, and no good will come of overturning the system in a vast continent like this.
What the coalition wants to achieve in Iraq would most certainly have been solved with less pain, loss of innocent lifes and time letting the diplomacy and course of history do the work.
War and violence has rarely solved any issue through history - much less been the successful road to build nations from the outside.

Even if things take 10, 20 or even 50 years, that is just minutes in the 5000 years of human civilisation. Patience is a virtue... (and one that Mac-lovers should have learned quite well ;) )

[SoGood]

At the moment, as far as I can see it, the PRC Central Government is pretty much the glue holding the country together, rather than the Universal Subjugator some here have mentioned. I'm not a fan of many of their policies - far from it - but running a country such as China is a truly hapless task.

America is working for the good of the Chinese people? No! It's working for the interest of the US. And splitting up and weaking of China is to its benefit. Simple as that. The Iraq war has quite simply unmasked the true driving force of US foreign policies.

[SoGood]

I studied tactics and policies, not literature and culture, so I have very little hands-on experience with the Chinese. Since you weren't specific about "which" China - I've never been in the PRC, spent a couple of weeks in the ROC and my Mandarin is extremely basic - which could prove embarrassing in two weeks when my boss and I have dinner with Ambassador Yang at his residence.

Holy ****! Without knowledge of the cultural background, how can you ever start to understand the intricacies of a society, a country? Maybe you and your boss should uncap the cold-war mentality cap first. You know... Think Different!

[mhar4]

America is working for the good of the Chinese people? No! It's working for the interest of the US. And splitting up and weaking of China is to its benefit. Simple as that. The Iraq war has quite simply unmasked the true driving force of US foreign policies.

Huh? What is America doing to split and weaken China? A weakened and divided China is the last thing the US wants.

[mhar4]

With a good deal of help from western opportunists, I might add... :)

Still; why do we in the west always want things to change right away (to what we see as right) - MTV like action?

Even if things take 10, 20 or even 50 years, that is just minutes in the 5000 years of human civilisation. Patience is a virtue... (and one that Mac-lovers should have learned quite well ;) )

What if Chinese people want change right away? 500,000 Chinese in Hong Kong protesting against Article 23 seemed in a hurry.

[iMan]

What if Chinese people want change right away? 500,000 Chinese in Hong Kong protesting against Article 23 seemed in a hurry.

Oh, well... that would be quite understandable, no.. ? ;)

If the people needs change, the people should change it. Besides - a minority, as Hong Kong represents, could hardly dictate the fate of all of China. That would not be democracy now, would it?

[mhar4]

If the people needs change, the people should change it. Besides - a minority, as Hong Kong represents, could hardly dictate the fate of all of China. That would not be democracy now, would it?

Yikes. Are you a party member? That's real Maoist logic!

[meta-ghost]

What if Chinese people want change right away? 500,000 Chinese in Hong Kong protesting against Article 23 seemed in a hurry.
hey mate, there were plenty who were also in a "hurry" during the british colonial period. only back then, the queen surely wouldn't allow 500,000 to gather.

relax, the reference to a long chinese history isn't an apology. just a reference point to the west.

[ergman]

just a confirmation. my access to apple & more importantly all blogspots (including my own) have been blocked for almost 3 weeks as well. being in china for a few years, i can tell you there's definitely IP/internet censorship but you didn't hear that from me.. you can try a proxy server(i find s.korea's effective) but you will have to keep switching. keep the faith

[mhar4]

As we get closer to the fifteenth anniversary of June 4 1989, the government is blocking more and more sites.

[iMan]

Yikes. Are you a party member? That's real Maoist logic!

So you favour a selected few to do the change? Or even a foreign power?
Well, if that is the american logic bless you, but it sounds a lot more like someone feels a little more equal than others...

Like it or not, but it just might happen that the west does not have the optimum solution for everything all the time... Remember also that if China for instance should instantly move to our "standards" - which also requires a surge in living standards - it might well prove that they also inherit some of our lesser sides; the pollution, traffic congestion, overly consumer focusing and such... when we have not solved these issues, we certainly can't expect others to just by following us...

[mhar4]

Again, huh??

This is nothing to do with Western hegemony over China, quite the reverse. It is suggesting that cultural relativism not be an excuse for political reform. Chinese civilization has been "ahead" of the West for centuries, but being dragged out of your home in the middle of the night, as recently happened to three members of Mothers of Tiananmen, is just not right and not Chinese, either.

[reyesmac]

There is a Powerbook that says "Tokyo" on it on the front page of Apple.com. Maybe the chicoms have a problem with that.
Its ok for the government there to allow people to manufacture american goods of all kinds there but when it comes to the peoples choice of where they want to go on the internet they get all repressive?

[qubex]

Well, people said that about the Taiwanese for years. Including many Taiwanese themselves. Same goes for China, and you'll hear many Chinese saying that 'the people' aren't ready for democracy.
Hrm... funny you should bring up Taiwan. Tell me, exactly how much mutual forebearance is implicit in refusing to acknowledge a newly-re-elected President? Is that indicative of a mature and functional system of democratic government?

Perhaps the Taiwanese naysayers were right?

Anyway, thank you for bolstering my case with evidence I hadn't considered yet. ;)

And allow me to pre-empt the obvious Bush-vs.-Gore analogy: in the end, albeit reluctantly, Gore and the whole Democratic Party did acknowledge George W. Bush as President, despite their reservations. Forebearance and sound compromise are vital ingredients of a democratic system. Gratuitous polarisation will only result in complete chaos: at the end of the day, any President is better than no President at all.

[SignTist]

I've been a member here for quite some time... just post very rarely. I gotta say this has been the best thread I've read in a long time... I've yet to see the contentions gathered here arise in another forum elsewhere, be it political, amusement, or computer related. I have to aplaud all the people who replied and made their case/ presence known about how things are with their side of the world through experience either in life or because of business. Absolutely amazing.


BTW, I'd just like to point out one small factor: I see so many here that have made their choice about what US foreign policy is doing to nations across the world, not just one's that we chose to go to war with. I have a small thought about this, and it's that the entire world has changed since 9-11. And it may be due to foreign policy, but it is entirely possible that it's also because of the censorship that others (think middle east) feel they should have the control over others and thier "school of thought" (think muslim extremists). I don't believe people are born evil, or bad or however you want to explain it... but I do believe it is instilled through some culture, through poverty and the need to do something about it. Is the Muslim world so pissed at the US because we went to war? Yes, but I believe tha'ts a small factor compared to the bigger picture. For decades many were suffering under oppresive rule, witnessing murder, executions, brutality, and torture. These are all ways to instill how people think and understand how humanity and respect for others is handled. A cheating spouse is stoned... a thief has his hands cut off, and standing up for a political belief is execution. The middle east is more pissed by the fact that it took the US THIS long to come in and do something about it... but now there are so many extremists, that the one's that do appreciate what has been done are probably too old to do anything about it, and you all know that nothing major is done by the old... it's done with the new and the young.

I cried like a baby watching that poor bastard in the beheading video. I was thrown with nausea, and couldn't believe that this is the Modern world. But truth be told, the world is not that modern for some other countries, and they are content with that. They want to be able to carry weapons, and stone, and torture, and the list goes on... I"m sure you've had feeling of " I'd kill him for doing this to me"... but do you? of course not... having several muslim friends, and talking to them about life there, severe punishment for some type of betrayal, or even a remark doesn't go without punishment! I and possible many of you consider that completely rediculous, but without a fair judicial system, without some type of representation which holds some responsibility to itself and regard for the law, things won't change for the different... they'll just remain moderately adjusted so that all this information is kept inside and not visible to people like you and I, and once again... we return to oppressed information which leads me back to the beginning of my point. Hope you all take care, it'll probably be another year or two before I post again.

[fixyourthinking]

... (think muslim extremists). I don't believe people are born evil, or bad or however you want to explain it... but I do believe it is instilled through some culture, through poverty and the need to do something about it.... possible many of you consider that completely rediculous, but without a fair judicial system, without some type of representation which holds some responsibility to itself and regard for the law, things won't change for the different... they'll just remain moderately adjusted so that all this information is kept inside and not visible to people like you and I, and once again... we return to oppressed information which leads me back to the beginning of my point. Hope you all take care, it'll probably be another year or two before I post again.

There was NOTHING modern or even regressive to caveman about that beheading - it was ANIMAL - not human - whether instilled, inherently evil, or vengeful.

The last time I saw something as brutal and gruesome I was watching the Discovery Channel - Tigers were fighting over territory.

Please don't say that the people in "that video" were human or give them ANY defense . (Which I realize you were not doing - but nothing is to blame for that!)

[iMan]

I cried like a baby watching that poor bastard in the beheading video. I was thrown with nausea, and couldn't believe that this is the Modern world. But truth be told, the world is not that modern for some other countries, and they are content with that. They want to be able to carry weapons, and stone, and torture, and the list goes on... I"m sure you've had feeling of " I'd kill him for doing this to me"... but do you? of course not... having several muslim friends, and talking to them about life there, severe punishment for some type of betrayal, or even a remark doesn't go without punishment!

Oh well. I feel like I am about to appear anti-american - but I am certainly not! I admire a lot about the american heritage - and maybe that is why I am so disappointed with the americans now involved in things like the Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, the wedding party killings, the support of the israelis killing innocent demonstrants/refugees with rockets... all of these are things that make me cry. And get real angry! This is torture and suppression at its worst and most ugly - and a lot of why other terrorists (Bush is no less in my opinion) is on the rise; violence gives birth to more violence. I am sorry, but I believe that the rage in muslim societies and the attacks the US har experienced they have brought upon themselves with the arrogance they have acted towards certain populations - lately also the european. I really feel sad about it, because I really believe the road for a better world is of tolerance, understanding and mutual respect for those not alike - and not forcing our ways onto others.

I should probably leave this discussion now too... :)

[SignTist]

There was NOTHING modern or even regressive to caveman about that beheading - it was ANIMAL - not human - whether instilled, inherently evil, or vengeful.

The last time I saw something as brutal and gruesome I was watching the Discovery Channel - Tigers were fighting over territory.

Please don't say that the people in "that video" were human or give them ANY defense . (Which I realize you were not doing - but nothing is to blame for that!)
Good point... but I didn't make an excuse, I was merely trying to point out that it isn't just American foreign policy that is the culprit for all this... it's also soemthing that is bred into people in places that believe in sun gods and the likes or think that everything that falls upon them is an attack on their religion. Sheesh... why are people not reading?

[qubex]

Good point... but I didn't make an excuse, I was merely trying to point out that it isn't just American foreign policy that is the culprit for all this... it's also soemthing that is bred into people in places that believe in sun gods and the likes or think that everything that falls upon them is an attack on their religion. Sheesh... why are people not reading?
As a non-American, I can reliably inform you that this is exactly the kind of attiutude that infuriates the rest of the world. It's not that other peoples percieve the USA to be out to get them, or that they consider everything to be an attack on their religion. It's the condescending tone and the belitteling that Americans so successfully engage in whenever they discuss other people's beleifs, cultures and religions. "Sun Gods"?! WTF? Islam is one of the great monotheistic religions and has in the past (and does in the present) inspire great learning, great tollerance and humanity.

Have Muslim fundamentalists ever come forth and told the American people how they should run the internal affairs of America? Not to my knowledge! No: they've been making demands relating to the Middle East, their own homelands. It is America that continually intervenes (clumsily, I may add) in the affairs of other nations. The methods of the terrorists are despicable, to be sure, but to ignore this crucial distinction is tantramount to intellectual dishonesty. People are sick and tired of being looked down on. The world is rebelling against America's holier-than-thou attitude.

That said, the violence is inexcusable. When I saw that video I was physically sick to my stomach. I still see it in my nightmare sometimes. The barbarity is beyond compare. Those who did this are truly animals. My civility does not permit me to entertain the punishment that should be metered out to them - suffice it to say that at the end of it, they'd be begging for death.

[herrmill]

As of yesterday afternoon, I've been able to access Apple.com again here in Shanghai

[qubex]

As of yesterday afternoon, I've been able to access Apple.com again here in Shanghai
I confirm. It works from here in Guangzhou (Canton) too.

[SignTist]

Did you notice me saying something negative about anything muslim? I don't recall saying it.. and I didn't read it. I wrote about the "extremists"... which is what they do. They have their fairy tale beliefs which is why I compared it to sun gods. What you need to do is get off the high horse, and start to see that everything is there in plain english, but you want to see it another way. Don't know why... mb it's because you live in another culture, well that's great... I hope you enjoy that lifestyle and it benefits you and your loved ones as much as you wish it to. But understand that this is why so many people feel so indifferently about us as americans and as a culture. Because we don't want to see stupid fairy tale crap...we want to work hard at something and turn it itno some type of a fruit that will blossom. I myself don't have much respect for these brain washed nutcases, but I do pity them. They are the product of a society that you so desperately are trying to defend, for unknown purposes.

[Unclezeppy]

It used to blocked here in Shanghai but now it's working again. I thought first maybe the reason is the Apple store; you can check the prices around the world and then go to local Apple store and complain, and end up getting the laptop from Hong Kong or some other country. Then I realized the store is accessible directly (store.apple.com). The blockage was annoying mostly because even the Chinese website has always worked (www.apple.com.cn) there were some things I needed to see in English.

I think in the future things might be the otherway around, the Chinese Apple site will be blocked from outsiders. According to my source all the Apple computers are made in China and there will be cheaper models targeting the local market. The new iMac G5's are made here but production is very slow (lack of CPU's?). They must be just filling the pipeline.

[iMan]

Did you notice me saying something negative about anything muslim? I don't recall saying it.. and I didn't read it. I wrote about the "extremists"... which is what they do. They have their fairy tale beliefs which is why I compared it to sun gods. What you need to do is get off the high horse, and start to see that everything is there in plain english, but you want to see it another way. Don't know why... mb it's because you live in another culture, well that's great... I hope you enjoy that lifestyle and it benefits you and your loved ones as much as you wish it to. But understand that this is why so many people feel so indifferently about us as americans and as a culture. Because we don't want to see stupid fairy tale crap...we want to work hard at something and turn it itno some type of a fruit that will blossom. I myself don't have much respect for these brain washed nutcases, but I do pity them. They are the product of a society that you so desperately are trying to defend, for unknown purposes.

You should be real careful - what you describes as brainwashed nutcases living in a fairytale is a lot like how people from other parts look upon americans... Just thought you should know...

As for the american working hard part; get real! visit some other cultures and see what working hard and creating really is about.

As for the Gods; I have seen your Chief summoning yours also - no better than any "Sun God" you may think of.

Good thing though; apparently the Sun Gods has released the Apple.com in China - so then the world can move forward again :D

[qubex]

Post-modern diatribe aside, cultural relativism is inescapable.

Tell me, objectively, how latter-day American liberal concepts of "Freedom", "Rights", and "Progress" differ from "Sun Gods". How does fanaticism in the name of Islam differ from the single-minded pursuit of extending American hegemony.

There is no difference. Every concept is exactly as hollow as all others, and based on equally arbitrary cultural axioms.

(Feel free to debate otherwise but don't complain when your arguments get shot down in flames.)

[mhar4]

Hrm... funny you should bring up Taiwan. Tell me, exactly how much mutual forebearance is implicit in refusing to acknowledge a newly-re-elected President? Is that indicative of a mature and functional system of democratic government?


Well, this issue is much debated in Taiwan Studies. see
http://www.soas.ac.uk/departments/departmentinfo.cfm?navid=529
(I'm in panel 8) But I think the Taiwanese have done pretty well. They didn't start shooting and most of the protesting was pretty good natured. And they don't block Apple's website, and that's got to be a good thing!

[qubex]

True, true.

It can be reasonably used as evidence either way.

[herrmill]

Unclezeppy, nice to see another mac user in SHA. I know what you mean by prices here - ouch! I just had a buddy of mine to switch from his Dell to a 17" iMac & he dropped a bundle at one of the local Apple "lite" stores. Considering they are made now in Shanghai Quanta's plant in Songjiang Industry Park & the cost savings obtained by relocating their production to China, I'd like to know what is their net margin is after factoring out the VAT.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=231

I'm always looking for another laowai to have a beer with should you be interested. I live in Puxi off Xinhua Lu & have my office on YanAn West. Drop me a note at herrmill@mac.com. Gubex, the same offer goes out to you should you ever be in the neighborhood.

[PTM]

What do you do here?

PTM

another Mac user in shanghai

[herrmill]

Damn, another one! I thought everyone used on Legend pcs here! Maybe we should start on our local Mac users group to give our girlfriends another reason why we need go to Malones alone.

Product development, sourcing & QA for the building materials industry. Primarily we act as an agent on behalf of OEM manufacturers & distributors who want to outsource their production or want to gain a foothold into the local market. Overall, rather boring stuff but it pays the bills.

What about you & the rest of us hardy souls who happen to be in this amazing place called China?

[SoGood]

This is nothing to do with Western hegemony over China, quite the reverse...

It's US hegemony! Don't confuse "Western" to "US". There are too many distinctions.

[dwater]

I haven't noticed apple.com being inaccessible from Beijing; not since last November or so.

I *have* had trouble loading their page. This, I'm told, is due to them moving their images (for the buttons) to akamai.net and access to that place it appaling from here. It makes using apple.com impossible. Unfortunately, blocking images from akamai.net doesn't help much since the page becomes almost blank - no text to help me navigate (yes, the page loads in just a few seconds though).

I filed a bug against them moving their images pointing out how unusable the site is for some of us (ie me).

[mustang_dvs]

Webmaster Finds Gaps in China's Net (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50496-2004May23.html)

By Philip P. Pan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, May 24, 2004; Page A01

GUANGZHOU, China -- When Wu Wei's Web site was shut down for the 23rd time, police in the western Chinese city of Chengdu replaced it with one of their own. For a few days last summer, people trying to reach his Democracy and Freedom discussion forum instead found an odd message in large red characters on their computer screens.

"Because this site contains illegal information," the message said, "the webmaster is asked to quickly contact Officer Hu of the Chengdu Public Security Bureau Internet Supervision Department." Helpfully, the officer left a phone number.

Wu, 34, a part-time college lecturer living hundreds of miles away in Guangzhou on China's southeast coast, ignored the request. But users across the country called and berated Officer Hu for closing the site.

Wu said the officer eventually called his cell phone and offered to reopen the site if he turned over data that could help police identify people who had posted essays there.

Wu refused. Instead, he found another company, in another city, selling space on the Internet for personal Web pages. And five days after it was closed, the Democracy and Freedom site was online again.

The authorities have shut down, blocked, hacked or otherwise incapacitated Wu's Web site 38 times in the past three years, repeatedly disrupting the discussions it hosts on political reform, human rights and other subjects the ruling Chinese Communist Party considers taboo. Each time the site has been closed, though, Wu and the friends who help him run it have found a way to open it again.

Their cat-and-mouse game with the country's cyberpolice highlights the unique challenge the Internet poses to the party as it struggles to build a free-market economy while preserving the largest authoritarian political system in the world. It also illustrates how the bounds of permissible speech in China are blurring.

Nearly three decades after the death of Mao Zedong, Chinese enjoy greater personal freedom than ever before under Communist rule, and they routinely criticize the government in private without fear. But people are increasingly using the Internet to broadcast their opinions in public, challenging a key pillar of the party's rule -- its ability to control news, information and public debate.

The party is swift to jail some people who criticize senior leaders or express dissent on sensitive subjects such as Tibet, Taiwan and the Tiananmen Square massacre; at least 55 people are in Chinese prisons on charges related to their Web postings. But others who express the same views go unpunished, because police officers are sometimes apathetic about tracking them down and local Internet businesses are often more interested in attracting customers than enforcing vague rules.

More than 80 million people use the Internet in China, according to official surveys, and the figure has been doubling every 18 months. Unlike authoritarian governments elsewhere, China's rulers have chosen to promote Internet access, aiming to nurture a tech-savvy workforce, stimulate economic growth and improve government efficiency.

But the Internet has become the most unpredictable and difficult to control of the nation's mass media. While Chinese newspapers, radio and television stations are all owned by the state and must follow the party's orders, the country's most popular Web sites are privately owned, driven by profit to expand their audiences and less strictly regulated by government censors. These Web sites are at the cutting edge of an epic struggle unfolding in China today between the authoritarian state and those seeking more freedom.

Several times, the sites have drawn national attention to incidents of perceived injustice, prompting ordinary people to flood the Internet with angry messages. In a country where public demonstrations are forbidden, the government has felt compelled to respond to these online protests. In one case, after an outcry over the death of a young college graduate in police custody, it repealed a decades-old law giving police wide-ranging power to detain people not carrying their residency permits.

Worried about these challenges, the leadership ordered tighter controls on news Web sites this year. The government has also upgraded the technology it uses to block content from overseas and, according to the state media, has begun to install new surveillance software in Internet cafes. Nationwide, China employs an estimated 30,000 people to enforce vague regulations against using the Web to spread rumors, organize cults or disseminate "harmful information."

"The most important battleground for freedom of speech in China is on the Internet now. The authorities realize that, and they are trying to suppress it," Wu said recently, peering at his smudged computer screen and giving a tour of his Web site. "At the same time, we are continuously challenging their bottom line, and pushing them back. . . . This is a critical time."

A New World
A trim man with a wide, square face and large glasses that sit a little too low on his nose, Wu talks fast, with a thick Cantonese accent. His tiny apartment holds only a bed and a small desk for a computer he assembled himself. A plastic cup he uses as an ashtray sits near his keyboard, and newspapers are taped on the only window to keep the sun from overheating the room. The neighborhood is a slum, located far from the college where Wu teaches a class on public administration once a week, and even farther from the factory where his wife works. But the couple chose the room because the rent was cheap and the landlord had wired the building for high-speed Internet access.

The eldest son of party officials, Wu joined the Communist Youth League in middle school and had planned to join the party in college because he believed it was China's best hope for a democratic and prosperous future. But as a freshman, he participated in the pro-democracy demonstrations that swept the nation in 1989, and changed his mind about the party after the Tiananmen massacre.

Wu had his own brush with the power of the state. During the crackdown, party officials demanded he identify teachers who led protests at his university, threatening to kick him out of school if he refused, Wu recalled. After several days of questioning, Wu gave them a name. He immediately regretted it, and decided then he would never give in like that again.

After graduating, Wu was assigned a job in a local office in charge of libraries and bookstores. He was frustrated and bored, until one day in 1998 a colleague introduced him to the Internet. Before long, Wu stumbled onto bulletin board sites hosting lively discussions on history, politics and current affairs. At first, Wu said, he only read what others had posted. But he was drawn into a new world.

When a popular discussion site was shut down in June 2001, he and two doctoral students he met online decided to launch the Democracy and Freedom forum, using a free bulletin board site. "I felt if I didn't speak out, I might not speak forever," recalled Wu, who adopted the Internet name Yedu, from a Tang Dynasty poem describing an empty boat on a river in the wilderness.

The new forum drew hundreds of visitors daily. Wu and his friends moderated debates on such sensitive subjects as President Jiang Zemin's plan to allow entrepreneurs into the party, independence for Tibet and whether China deserved to host the Olympics. Every Friday night, users gathered in an online chat room to continue the discussions in real time.

But less than three months after the Democracy and Freedom forum opened, authorities suddenly shut down the Web site hosting it. Neither police nor the site's managers contacted Wu. He simply clicked on his forum's address one day and saw a message on a white screen indicating the page was unavailable.

Wu and his colleagues set up the forum again on another free discussion site, and it flourished undisturbed for six months. Then, one day, as a group of users planned to meet in person, agents of the Ministry of State Security visited one of Wu's two partners. They pressured him to stop participating in the forum and threatened to withhold his doctoral degree, Wu said. After the student's wife also urged him to stop, he agreed to quit.

"We all could understand his decision," said Wu, whose own wife has urged him to give up the Web site. "People have to make their own choices."

Over the next six months, the authorities shut down Wu's forum 12 times. On a few occasions, the entire Web site hosting it would disappear. Other times, only his forum was closed, replaced by a message that said, "This forum has already been deleted."

Wu said he was not afraid back then because the government had not yet arrested many people for Internet activities and because he believed he was doing nothing illegal. "I mainly felt angry," he recalled. "We had freedom of speech on the Internet, but now the authorities wouldn't even let us have that space."

Still, Wu began taking precautions. When posting his own essays, he used a software program that allowed him to sign on to the Internet through a proxy server, making it difficult if not impossible for the authorities to track him down.

Despite the shutdowns, his forum continued to attract new users. Each time it closed and opened, Wu sent out a mass of e-mails with its new location, and flooded the Internet with similar notices.

(cont.)

[mustang_dvs]

Webmaster (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50496-2004May23.html), cont.

Then, in November 2002, police in Beijing arrested two of his site's regular essayists. The same day, Wu's supervisor at the library and bookstore oversight office accused him of keeping "extremely reactionary essays" on his office computer and suspended him pending a party investigation.

For the first time since setting up the site, Wu was frightened and nervous. He was ordered not to leave his home. "Any time an individual faces the huge state organ, you feel alone and weak," he said. So he stayed off the Internet.

As the months passed, his friends online grew anxious. "We were worried he might have been arrested," recalled Mou Bo, 28, a medical student in Shanghai and one of the site's co-founders. But Mou and others kept the forum running.

In the end, the officials investigating Wu never asked about his Web forum or inspected his home computer, which he used to manage it. Instead, he recalled, they examined the essays he had downloaded at the office from dissident Web sites overseas. That was enough for him to lose his job.

Thriving Underground
In April 2003, after moving to Guangzhou in search of work, Wu finally signed on to the Internet again. To his surprise, the Democracy and Freedom forum was thriving. Authorities had not shut it down in months. Wu said police appeared distracted by the SARS crisis.

The next time police shut down the site, in May 2003, Wu and his friends changed tactics. Instead of moving to another Web site hosting discussion forums for free, they decided to design a site of their own and rent space from an Internet service provider. More people could sign on simultaneously, and the discussions could be expanded and organized. Most important, they would be able to save a copy of the site so the material would no longer be lost every time authorities pulled the plug.

They named the main forum the Sound of Freedom and set aside another section to mark the 15th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre. They also began offering downloads, including the texts of banned books and a variety of video and audio files. Among the recent offerings was footage of the huge anti-government protests in Hong Kong last year and a bootleg copy of the movie "1984," based on George Orwell's novel.

One page on the site, titled "Freedom of Speech is Not a Crime," highlighted the danger of their endeavor. It listed the names of 20 people jailed for expressing their views on the Web, including several who were regular essayists on the site. Wu never deleted their writings after the arrests. Unlike the hosts of most Chinese Web sites, he has also refused to employ a software filter to block messages with sensitive phrases such as human rights.

A dozen other friends scattered across 10 provinces were helping Wu and Mou now. They were civil servants and computer programmers, entrepreneurs and scholars, even a government official and a well-known novelist, all using Internet pen names. Only a few had ever met. Instead they communicated using Microsoft's free instant messaging system, which allowed them to hold conversations and meetings online.

They rented Web space, available in China for about $15 a month, and the new site debuted in June 2003. Two days later, it was shut down. The Internet firm explained that police in Beijing ordered them to do so, Wu said.

Wu and his partners tried again with an Internet firm in Chengdu a few weeks later. The site stayed up about two months before the message from Officer Hu appeared.

Over time, a pattern emerged. Wu used the Google search engine to find a company renting Web space on a monthly basis and using software compatible with his. The process involved clicking on link after link, and could take days. Then he contacted the firm by instant messaging, and a partner would send the payment electronically.

The company usually put up the Web site immediately, without asking questions. Then, within a few weeks, it would shut it down. Often, an employee warned that police had ordered the closure and launched a criminal investigation.

But only once did police follow through and question Wu or his colleagues. Last September, police in Jiangsu province detained the Web manager from Wu's site who had contacted and paid the last Internet firm. At about the same time, officers from the Ministry of State Security detained another of the site's managers.

Wu and the others prepared for the worst. They stopped trying to rent Internet space. They also destroyed personal letters and meeting notes that might be used against them or their friends.

As he waited, Wu began rereading essays written by dissidents who had spent time in prison. "This was the most tense time," he recalled. "We had already lost several Internet friends. We knew what was possible."

But then his two partners were released. Days and then weeks passed without a knock on his door or word of any other arrests. Eventually, Wu and his friends concluded they were safe. And they began renting Internet space again.

Eluding the Police
As time passed, Wu and his colleagues came to a series of surprising conclusions about the men and women shutting down their Web site.

First, the Internet service providers didn't seem to care until police stepped in. State regulations require the providers to monitor the sites they host, save data about the users who visit them and ensure that discussion sites are registered with the government. But the companies appeared more interested in winning customers than screening them.

There was a pattern to the behavior of the police too. It would have been possible to track down Wu and his partners, given the electronic trail they left by renting the server space and using it regularly. But the police didn't seem interested. The officers were usually in the same city as the Internet service provider, and they rarely left the jurisdiction.

It also would have been easy for the authorities to shut down the site quickly. Wu gave out the new address to anyone who asked. But the site often stayed open for weeks before police acted.

"The party is not a monolithic block," Wu said. "The police may feel, 'If we can avoid the trouble, let's avoid the trouble.' No one wants to go out of their way to hurt people."

Many officers and officials appear more concerned about profiting from the Internet than policing it. For example, a campaign to regulate Internet cafes has faltered because local authorities often look the other way when cafe managers fail to record customers' names or install surveillance software, as long as they pay taxes and fees.

"There are more and more of us mice, but the cat, for various reasons, is less interested in its work," said one of Wu's partners, a woman who helps manage Shanghai's economy. Another partner, a computer technician in Nanjing, added, "The cat is too busy making money."

'We're Not Going to Stop'
Wu said he cannot compete with the government's resources or its access to high technology. When he attempted to establish the site on a server overseas last year, for example, the authorities blocked users in China from seeing it. But Wu said he and his friends are more committed to their cause.

In December, they took the fight to a new level, organizing a petition drive on the site for the first time. Wu drafted an open letter calling for the release of Du Daobin, a regular writer on their site who had been arrested and charged with "inciting subversion against the state" after posting essays supporting last year's protests in Hong Kong. "This is a case of criminalizing speech," Wu wrote, urging the government to clarify the nation's subversion laws and stop using them to "suppress the people from carrying out peaceful criticism."

Wu circulated the petition among liberal intellectuals and legal scholars, who made improvements, then posted it on his site on Feb. 1. Police were slow to respond, and it quickly drew more than 1,400 signatures.

About two weeks later, Wu noticed that someone had deleted pages from the online petition. Then people began to have trouble accessing other pages on the site. Messages appeared telling users that essays were inaccessible because they contained "illegal phrases." Some indicated "Communist Party" was an illegal phrase.

On Feb. 19, the site was shut down. The Internet firm hosting it said it had acted under orders from the Ministry of State Security. Since the beginning of March, the site has opened and closed five more times.

"We're not going to stop," Wu vowed. "We'll try again in a few days."

© 2004 The Washington Post Company

[mustang_dvs]

FYI: I posted the entire text of the article b/c www.washingtonpost.com is blocked throughout [most of] the PRC.

[mhar4]

FYI: I posted the entire text of the article b/c www.washingtonpost.com is blocked throughout the PRC.

Nice one. I assume Macrumors is not blocked!

[herrmill]

Nice one. I assume Macrumors is not blocked!

That's funny, I am in Shanghai & reading the Washington Post online as we speak. What they should block is FOX News, but then THAT would send the wrong message!

[mustang_dvs]

I *have* had trouble loading their page. This, I'm told, is due to them moving their images (for the buttons) to akamai.net and access to that place it appaling from here.

Akamai has been experiencing some serious problems, of late:
http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/44517

[ImaMacAddict]

for the people there, attached to a PC for ever :( , Maybe it's because they are going to start soon a Linux project and don't want people to know about other OSes :( , or is it because lot of apple products are assembled in Taiwan?, Unlikely but sometimes someone has to give the stupid reasons and wait goos reasons from the next people... :o

Actually, little or NO manufacturing is done in Taiwan (for Apple or a lot of companies). The business front is in Taiwan, but the actual manufacturing is done in mainland China where they make 1/4 of what a Taiwanese worker would....I recently ordered a new 17" PB, and it was shipped from Shanghai(sp) city... Friends of mine at work, who ARE from Taiwan, concur....

[herrmill]

Was in Ningbo's airport last night & saw a Taiwanese in the net cafe with a 15" Ai PB just like mine. Great to see more of us who "Think Different" in the area. :)

[windowsblowsass]

It used to blocked here in Shanghai but now it's working again. I thought first maybe the reason is the Apple store; you can check the prices around the world and then go to local Apple store and complain, and end up getting the laptop from Hong Kong or some other country. Then I realized the store is accessible directly (store.apple.com). The blockage was annoying mostly because even the Chinese website has always worked (www.apple.com.cn) there were some things I needed to see in English.

I think in the future things might be the otherway around, the Chinese Apple site will be blocked from outsiders. According to my source all the Apple computers are made in China and there will be cheaper models targeting the local market. The new iMac G5's are made here but production is very slow (lack of CPU's?). They must be just filling the pipeline.
did i just here imacg5 confirmation?

[mcjazz]

Interesting thread.

I've just returned from my first foray into China - in Beijing.

Normally, when staying in hotels, getting an internet connection is a pain - and a cost! But in Beijing it was a breeze. I was logging on for a couple of hours every day for 8 days - at a total cost of 78 yuan. Never any engaged signals either.

My browsing habits are a bit "anti-state" - and I regularly visit controversial news sites - and while in Beijing was able to visit all my usual haunts :)

In fact, I "tested" the system by being deliberately controversial.

My other observations were that China is not as restricted as I had thought - and in some ways, people are less "tied up" than those of us in the west - witness the millions of people on bicycles - without stupid helmets!

It was a most fascinating week - and I find it interesting that as such countries become more free - our developed western countries become less so.

[topicolo]

I don't know about you, but qubex's statement about the condescending attitude that the world loves so much to hate about Americans is pretty evident in your response...

...But understand that this is why so many people feel so indifferently about us as americans and as a culture. Because we don't want to see stupid fairy tale crap...we want to work hard at something and turn it itno some type of a fruit that will blossom. I myself don't have much respect for these brain washed nutcases, but I do pity them. They are the product of a society that you so desperately are trying to defend, for unknown purposes.

So in summary, all of the anti-American sentiment stem from closed minded conclusions which, being superior, Americans don't fall for "Because we don't want to see stupid fairy tale crap."

Closed mindedness? Why does that sound familiar? Maybe we should look at the Bush administration's excuses for going to war with Iraq? What did they do when weapons inspectors returned with overwhelming lack of evidence for WMDs in Iraq? They chose to ignore the real data and fabricate better "evidence".

Of course, the administration must have thought that they could just slip the important info under the rug because the rest of the world sees "fairy tale crap" and don't "want to work hard at something and turn it itno some type of a fruit that will blossom"

Well thank you Mr. Enlightened person. This nutcase must go now back to the nuthouse to reinforce my "fairy tale crap" beliefs and not work hard.

[brittmyers]

I have been in Shanghai for the past week and Apple.com has been working fine.

Some sites have trouble loading over here for technical reasons, I believe because of erratic and unsecure servers, from what I've been told. Technical, not political. I can load pretty much anything I want to, but sometimes it takes a couple of tries. Not to say that some sites ARE censored, they just aren't any of the typical "American" sites I visit on a regular basis.

But right now and for the last week Apple.com has been fully operational. I've gone to it almost every day (the home page).

[iLilana]

i guess that means no itms for china

[MeMac]

I went to China a the last week of June and it was not blocked. Quite sometime ago someone else also reported such proble. I think it was just newsmaker ot purely coincidental.
Apple.com is accesable in China.

[mhar4]

It might have been due to the fifteenth anniversary of the June 4 Incident. A lot of sites were blocked around that time.

[sushi]

china is a funny place. the more you spend time there and think you understand it, the more it surprises you.
I think to a degree that this statement applies to Asia as a whole and not just China. Too often the typical American tries to apply their viewpoint to a culture that does not fit their paradigm. The result in an inaccurate perception.

Sushi

I hate to point this out, but the "time since conception" thing really is an anachronism. I've never encountered anybody here in China who really does that.

So, without puttinig too harsh a point on it, perhaps a little insight into the underlying cultural subtext would be in order. It's not that I don't respect academia and so forth, but knowledge deprived of context is a very dangerous thing indeed.

"Knowledge is a powerful thing to have underhand,
But I'd gladly give it up if I could only understand."
Very well put!

Sushi

[MacMoot2]

According to one report, Apple.com appears to be blocked in China and has been for the past 3 weeks.

For the past 3 weeks or so the link to the Beijing Daily newpaper has not worked also. The server link can't be found.

[acdninjapan]

There is a Powerbook that says "Tokyo" on it on the front page of Apple.com. Maybe the chicoms have a problem with that.
Its ok for the government there to allow people to manufacture american goods of all kinds there but when it comes to the peoples choice of where they want to go on the internet they get all repressive?

That would be a definite yes! Anti Japanese rhetoric is at an all time high right now. I have a Japanese IP address and have been constantly blocked from accessing any Chinese sites. Also, the Gaimusho, Boecho and Japanese Education Ministry were attacked by Chinese Cyberhackers and all this was coordinated with the attack on the Japanese Embassy and Japanese businesses.

[acdninjapan]

Well, this issue is much debated in Taiwan Studies. see
http://www.soas.ac.uk/departments/departmentinfo.cfm?navid=529
(I'm in panel 8) But I think the Taiwanese have done pretty well. They didn't start shooting and most of the protesting was pretty good natured. And they don't block Apple's website, and that's got to be a good thing!

The Taiwanese expressed their displeasure but, they are pragmatic and will do whatever is necessary to make things work out.The PRC believe that they are Asia's true rulers and are taking steps to exercise what they believe is their 'Manifest Destiny'. They've done this by hiding parts of their history such as the Great Leap-which was a fiasco and the wholesale bloodletting which was the Gang of Four (I was there for that). They're extorted money from their neighbours (the Japanese), browbeaten and threatened lesser countries (the Vietnamese) when their policies were questionned (as in their support of the Pol Pot regime) and have carried on as if they were the US of A of the early 1900's -1960's.

I have no faith in the Bush regime and an equal amount of faith in the PRC regime.

[acdninjapan]

Damn, another one! I thought everyone used on Legend pcs here! Maybe we should start on our local Mac users group to give our girlfriends another reason why we need go to Malones alone.

Product development, sourcing & QA for the building materials industry. Primarily we act as an agent on behalf of OEM manufacturers & distributors who want to outsource their production or want to gain a foothold into the local market. Overall, rather boring stuff but it pays the bills.

What about you & the rest of us hardy souls who happen to be in this amazing place called China?

Hi people,

I'm just your typical gaijin/ang mor (Japan/Singapore) graphic designer and animator. I'm interested in finding out if there are any animation houses in China and what sort of work they do. I'm familiar with Japanese work, having with with Tezuka's Neontetra Production and Aoni Pro here in Tokyo.