Apple Issues Advisory Regarding Third-Party Devices Syncing With iTunes

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/06/16/apple-issues-advisory-regarding-third-party-devices-syncing-with-itunes/)

Daring Fireball highlights (http://daringfireball.net/linked/2009/06/16/apple-itunes-pre) a new support document (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3642) from Apple addressing the issue of "unsupported third-party digital media players" syncing with iTunes. The brief document warns users that Apple does not test its software with such devices and thus their ability to sync with iTunes may be broken by future software updates.Apple is aware that some third-parties claim that their digital media players are able to sync with Apple software. However, Apple does not provide support for, or test for compatibility with, non-Apple digital media players and, because software changes over time, newer versions of Apple's iTunes software may no longer provide syncing functionality with non-Apple digital media players.The new Palm Pre has received a significant amount of attention (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/05/28/palm-pre-to-sync-with-itunes-on-macs/) for its ability to sync with iTunes despite the lack of support from Apple. The Pre has been discovered to accomplish this feat by emulating an iPod (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/06/05/palm-pre-roundup-public-launch-tomorrow-syncs-with-itunes-8-2/) by transmitting Apple-specific vendor and product IDs to iTunes.

Article Link: Apple Issues Advisory Regarding Third-Party Devices Syncing With iTunes (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/06/16/apple-issues-advisory-regarding-third-party-devices-syncing-with-itunes/)

[cptchipjew]

!pwned. A C&D would be pwnage. This here is what we call "classing up the joint".

[neoserver]

This is a typical response from Apple, I mean were people really expecting them to go out of their way to support the Pre? (This is regardless of whether they should or not.)

[harodude]

Well deserved!

All the more reason just to stick with a better device (iPhone) , and network (AT&T) at that~~~Never having to worry about compatibility!

[NateDMB]

Palm = Psystar. lmao

[ghettochris]

death to palm, though i'm kicking myself for not buying their stock after their january announcement. it jumped 35% in a day to close to $5, thought i missed out, now it's almost triple that. @$^@#$%

[Shake 'n' Bake]

Palm is going to look at the code in each new release and just keep changing WebOS's code so that it will still work with iTunes. Then they'll distribute it as an update.

[atticus18244fsa]

Wonder who this is directed towards. :p

[Eidorian]

Palm is going to look at the code in each new release and just keep changing WebOS's code so that it will still work with iTunes. Then they'll distribute it as an update.I suspect the same as well. It'll be another messy game of catch up.

[Infrared]

Looks like a scare tactic to frighten buyers off the competition.

[travisjacques]

Palm is going to look at the code in each new release and just keep changing WebOS's code so that it will still work with iTunes. Then they'll distribute it as an update.

Sucks for the pre owners who have to update their phone anytime apple says, wouldnt it be nice if your phone just worked? Oh, wait, mine does.

[jaw04005]

Palm is going to look at the code in each new release and just keep changing WebOS's code so that it will still work with iTunes. Then they'll distribute it as an update.

Not if Apple starts authenticating the iPods and iPhones. Right now, the exchange between those devices and iTunes is relatively simple.

DVDJon explains:

So how has Palm most likely enabled the Pre to sync directly with iTunes?

• When you select “Media Sync” on the Pre, it will switch its USB interface to use Apple’s Vendor Id and the Product Id for a specific iPod model
• The Pre exposes a filesystem through Mass Storage Class that mimics the structure of an iPod
• The Pre responds to Apple’s custom USB command and returns XML info about the device

http://nanocr.eu/2009/05/28/syncing-music-and-video-to-the-palm-pre/

Haha. Look what Palm's press release regarding the feature includes in the footnote section:

(2) Compatible with iTunes 8.1.1 on Windows XP/Vista and Mac OS X version 10.3.9-10.5

[SG1-1]

As Flounder Say's

"This is GREAT" :D

[heisetax]

Apple has done such a good job with the iTunes Store that others want to use it. Apple actually makes more money, but Apple's paranoia will keep their legal department busy. Maybe some Palm Users can make up for some Mac & iPod people that do not se the iTunes Store. Having the iTunes Music Store being the only source for software for the iPod Touch & iPhone has kept me away from buying a couple of them. It sounds like a monopoly that everyone around here scowls about when other companies do the same.

[laughingperson5]

July 7th:
iTunes 8.2.3
-Opens iTunes to sync with Palm Pre-
-Plugs in USB-
-Palm Pre crashes-
Palm Pre crash screen says:
"Erasing Data and Firmware Files"
iTunes says:
"That's for buying a Palm Pre. Next time, buy an iPhone. -iPhone 3GS shows up on screen.-"

[commander.data]

Well I don't think many people expected Apple to officially support newer third-party devices in iTunes beyond whatever previous agreements they had with older devices. The support document is just legal clarification to discourage people from blaming Apple when things don't work.

I think as long as third-parties don't promote iTunes support too hard, like running entire commercials demoing it, Apple probably won't mind too much beyond occasionally breaking things with iTunes updates. This is kind of like their more passive response to community hackintosh projects. However, if third-parties push iTunes support too hard as a feature then I can see Apple fighting back legally or with active protection measures in software kind of like their response to Psystar.

Does Apple own the trademark to the "iTunes" name? I would think that would make it a bit harder for other companies to directly advertise iTunes functionality.

[HiRez]

Palm is going to look at the code in each new release and just keep changing WebOS's code so that it will still work with iTunes. Then they'll distribute it as an update.So Pre owners have their syncing broken every few months? No, I don't imagine that's going to go over very well. Palm had to see this coming so I assume they're working on a solution of their own (ie. iTunes clone) that's just not ready yet.

[thevofl]

Didn't Apple send out a message like this before releasing the 1.1.1 software effectively bricking a number of phones?

[Fenir]

so if people use their pre with it, then just don't update to the next iTunes?

[lapis]

hate hate hate

Why are they so afraid of hardware competition that they go out of their way to shut out software support for anything other than the mighty ipod? They want us all in, on everything. And you know what? They are not necessarily the best choice for everything.

(Needing freaking mobileme in order to remotely zap your data? Shameful.)

Lest anyone think I'm not an Apple person, I bought the first iphone on Day 2 and will be purchasing this one on Saturday. And all my personal computers are Macs.

But that doesn't mean I don't see an ***hole company when I see one.

[treyjustice]

hate hate hate

Why are they so afraid of hardware competition that they go out of their way to shut out software support for anything other than the mighty ipod? They want us all in, on everything. And you know what? They are not necessarily the best choice for everything.

(Needing freaking mobileme in order to remotely zap your data? Shameful.)

Lest anyone think I'm not an Apple person, I bought the first iphone on Day 2 and will be purchasing this one on Saturday. And all my personal computers are Macs.

But that doesn't mean I don't see an ***hole company when I see one.

itd be dumb for them not to

[birch25]

Palm is going to look at the code in each new release and just keep changing WebOS's code so that it will still work with iTunes. Then they'll distribute it as an update.

Exactly. This is really the best we could have hoped for from Apple. The Pre pretends to be an iPod for iTunes and allows its users to easily sync their media to their prone. This is great stuff and fortunately, unlike their statement that jailbreaking/unlocking one's iPhone is illegal, they're merely saying that they don't provide support for other devices and iTunes' code may change in ways that will make other devices no longer sync properly (until Palm issues a patch of their own).

Seriously though, what's with all the hate on these forums? I'm a huge Apple fan as well but wishing Palm to "die" is quite irrational. Boo on competition...?

[travisjacques]

Apple has done such a good job with the iTunes Store that others want to use it. Apple actually makes more money, but Apple's paranoia will keep their legal department busy. Maybe some Palm Users can make up for some Mac & iPod people that do not se the iTunes Store. Having the iTunes Music Store being the only source for software for the iPod Touch & iPhone has kept me away from buying a couple of them. It sounds like a monopoly that everyone around here scowls about when other companies do the same.

Apple does not make more money if people can sync their pre to their itunes, then what is the point of them buying an ipod or iphone? Itunes software is free and i dont know anyone who still pays for music so apple makes next to no money for allowing this to continue

[Shake 'n' Bake]

Palm may abandon iTunes all together.

Palm may give instructions to the Pre users to use iSync to sync their iTunes music located at ~/Music/iTunes. That may be simpler, but you'll be without your iTunes metadata and (probably) album artwork.

[bladehavoc]

So Pre owners have their syncing broken every few months? No, I don't imagine that's going to go over very well. Palm had to see this coming so I assume they're working on a solution of their own (ie. iTunes clone) that's just not ready yet.

Too bad there are a mysterious things called options for syncing. Something that apple doesn't provide. The pre can be used as a mass storage device for drag and drop media access, not to mention there are third party apps that sync the pre, such as the Missing Sync, etc.

[Goona]

Looks like a scare tactic to frighten buyers off the competition.

Scare tactics eh, so Im guessing Apple adviced Palm to advertise iTunes sync, now they are changig their minds. Palm knew what they were doing, they deserve what comes to them.

[cliffrouse11bas]

As much as I did love my iPhone, I was tired of slow internet and paying outrageous service fees to AT&T. I switched to the Pre and have 3G in my town and all around me. My plan went down by $70 a month. There are some things I miss, but for me it is not worth $70 a month, and I have super-fast internet. It is user preference. I do not sync my Pre through iTunes, because there are many other ways to do it without going through iTunes. I never buy my songs on iTunes anyway. I either buy the CD and import or use Amazon.

[nagromme]

They should just send the ID of one of those older non-Apple players. (Synching those may be more limited, but has worked for years.)

[TheSpaz]

Hahahahahaha!

Palm sucks... everyone knows it! Apple pwns!

Okay... that felt wrong but oh well. In my opinion, who cares? Oh yeah, that's right, Palm users care! Hahahahahahaha!

[Goona]

hate hate hate

Why are they so afraid of hardware competition that they go out of their way to shut out software support for anything other than the mighty ipod? They want us all in, on everything. And you know what? They are not necessarily the best choice for everything.

(Needing freaking mobileme in order to remotely zap your data? Shameful.)

Lest anyone think I'm not an Apple person, I bought the first iphone on Day 2 and will be purchasing this one on Saturday. And all my personal computers are Macs.

But that doesn't mean I don't see an ***hole company when I see one.
Why don't you tell Palm to get of their lazt behinds and develop a proper iTunes syncing program like RIM did.

[Ansuz]

Too bad there are a mysterious things called options for syncing. Something that apple doesn't provide. The pre can be used as a mass storage device for drag and drop media access, not to mention there are third party apps that sync the pre, such as the Missing Sync, etc.

This is true, but Apple's entire approach to the iPod and iPhone (marketing-wise, at least) has been hardware/software synergy. The devices compliment each other in ways that would prevent the average user from wanting to sync via another method.

It doesn't surprise me at all that Apple would want to keep that dynamic exclusive to the "i" family of products.

[AidenShaw]

I will be laughing so hard if Apple manages to brick some Ipods while trying to screw Palm! :D

[quagmire]

Seriously though, what's with all the hate on these forums? I'm a huge Apple fan as well but wishing Palm to "die" is quite irrational. Boo on competition...?

Boo on competition that has to hack another companies IP in order to create the same experience as that company. Palm needs to create its own software to sync with the Pre.

[Shake 'n' Bake]

Why don't you tell Palm to get of their lazt behinds and develop a proper iTunes syncing program like RIM did.

Because it seems that Palm is going for the Apple theme. Looks good, pretty good hardware, awesome OS, seamless experience, etc. I took a look at that program and it didn't look seamless.

[HiRez]

hate hate hate

Why are they so afraid of hardware competition that they go out of their way to shut out software support for anything other than the mighty ipod? They want us all in, on everything. And you know what? They are not necessarily the best choice for everything.First, this may just be legal CYA in case compatibility does break, they haven't actually shut anything down explicitly yet. This washes their hands of the matter should anything happen.

Second, Apple spent a lot of time, money, and effort developing iTunes. The iPod would not have been successful without it. Palm doesn't have any right to piggyback on that effort to sell their own competing hardware. If they want a music management and sync solution, the onus is certainly on them to write and maintain their own software for it. Nothing is stopping them from doing that. Now if Apple were building into their chips or OS something that blocked using other manufacturer's hardware with a Mac, I might feel differently.

[Eidorian]

I will be laughing so hard if Apple manages to brick some Ipods while trying to screw Palm! :DI wouldn't be surprised.

On another note I mistook Goona's posts to be Doctor Q.

[adbe]

hate hate hate

Why are they so afraid of hardware competition that they go out of their way to shut out software support for anything other than the mighty ipod? They want us all in, on everything. And you know what? They are not necessarily the best choice for everything.
.

FFS.

Faced with a number of entirely mundane explanations, why does half the Internet always manage to go off the deep end.

Is it not even vaguely possible that this is just bog standard CYA copy from Apple?

Even if Apple don't give a flying toss about Palm, they're not going to go out of their way to rigorously test compatibility with the Pre, and as such they're making that clear *before* the inevitable bitching when something goes tits up.

[edit HiRez beat me too it]

[Hot Snowboarder]

I will be laughing so hard if Apple manages to brick some Ipods while trying to screw Palm! :D

...you don't think they might be monitoring the compatibility of their own devices a little more closely than those of palm?

[Eidorian]

...you don't think they might be monitoring the compatibility of their own devices a little more closely than those of palm?The Apple that releases software updates on "their" hardware only to pull them? Not to mention firmware updates on the computer hardware. It can happen.

[HiRez]

Too bad there are a mysterious things called options for syncing. Something that apple doesn't provide. The pre can be used as a mass storage device for drag and drop media access, not to mention there are third party apps that sync the pre, such as the Missing Sync, etc.Oh, I agree, I just think it was silly for Palm to openly encourage users to use iTunes for sync. Most users won't know about options and won't care when it breaks, because they were pointed to iTunes. Palm should have had their own software ready to roll and included with the Pre.

[Creative One]

I assume this is a Apple making sure they don't get screwed. Perhaps they let Palm piggy, but as soon as they surpass iPhone - Bye bye iTunes Pre users.

[batchtaster]

This is the right way to go about this sort of thing. It doesn't say "we're gonna break it, na-na-na", it's just a simple statement of fact that you takes your chances.

I run across this all the time. I develop integration solutions, including SOE images and other things. And when my solutions are mis-used, deliberately misconfigured or outright ripped off, when someone comes to me complaining, for example, that they lost all their data when they installed my image, enabled and logged in as root (true story), well.... sorry, but tough luck.

I don't develop with the intent to maliciously outright block or destroy or anything, but at the same time, I have no obligation to develop with the rogue element in mind - how can I when I can't really predict what they're going to do? The only thing I can do is develop with the genuine, true intention of what my product is supposed to do/achieve, and, as Apple has done here, state that any use outside its original intention is neither supported nor my problem.

I'm inclined to give Apple the benefit of the doubt here and take them at what they say (ie: the opposite of "if in doubt, assume the worst of someone" which seems to be the norm here), that they're probably not going to go out of their way to block Palm devices, but at the same time, if there's an issue, it's not their problem and they're not going to go out of their way to fix it.

[awulf]

hate hate hate

Why are they so afraid of hardware competition that they go out of their way to shut out software support for anything other than the mighty ipod? They want us all in, on everything. And you know what? They are not necessarily the best choice for everything.

(Needing freaking mobileme in order to remotely zap your data? Shameful.)

Lest anyone think I'm not an Apple person, I bought the first iphone on Day 2 and will be purchasing this one on Saturday. And all my personal computers are Macs.

But that doesn't mean I don't see an ***hole company when I see one.

I also don't understand why people are against the Palm Pre syncing with iTunes, don't people want choice? How does it hurt them when the Pre can sync with iTunes? Apple isn't our friend, they are a business, and their main goal is to suck as much money as possible from us.

Also there are other ways to sync with iTunes, via third party programs, should Apple block all those programs from running under Mac OS X? Maybe Apple should make an Mac OS X app store and only programs approved by Apple can run on a Mac. After all most people here seem to hate choice.

[inkswamp]

Why are they so afraid of hardware competition that they go out of their way to shut out software support for anything other than the mighty ipod? They want us all in, on everything. And you know what? They are not necessarily the best choice for everything.

I have no doubt that Apple sunk a lot of money and time into the R&D for iTunes and iPod and that's to say nothing of the seemingly thankless efforts they made to convince content providers that digital distribution was the way to go. After having taken the big risks and put in all the work, why should they be expected to share any piece of that?

Piggy-backing on Apple's products isn't "hardware competition." That's just lazy. Why shouldn't Palm develop and promote their own music store? That would be true competition. I wonder why you're not angry at Palm for their reluctance to embrace competition on that level.

This reminds me of the silly message that Netflix posted about how Apple wouldn't license their DRM so they couldn't offer streaming to Mac users yet. Just because Apple developed the content-protection scheme that Netflix needed didn't automatically mean Netflix had any rights to it. Netflix should have put in the time and energy to develop their own DRM if they needed it. Likewise, Palm has no business intruding on iTunes.

Apple's business model has always involved eschewing the tech industry's conventional wisdom that you need to license your software to all takers. That's Apple's business model. Differing types of business models also represent a type of competition. Would you deny Apple's right to compete in that way?

[barkomatic]

hate hate hate

Why are they so afraid of hardware competition that they go out of their way to shut out software support for anything other than the mighty ipod? They want us all in, on everything. And you know what? They are not necessarily the best choice for everything.

(Needing freaking mobileme in order to remotely zap your data? Shameful.)

Lest anyone think I'm not an Apple person, I bought the first iphone on Day 2 and will be purchasing this one on Saturday. And all my personal computers are Macs.

But that doesn't mean I don't see an ***hole company when I see one.

Maybe, but maybe not. It could be just as apple mentioned--that they don't guarantee that itunes will work the third party devices like the Palm Pre.

I could see someone getting a Pre then finding it doesn't sync after a particular update and blaming Apple and itunes for the malfunction. If Apple were expected to make sure all third party devices work with itunes it could get very, very expensive.

[blur35mm]

hate hate hate

Why are they so afraid of hardware competition that they go out of their way to shut out software support for anything other than the mighty ipod? They want us all in, on everything. And you know what? They are not necessarily the best choice for everything.

(Needing freaking mobileme in order to remotely zap your data? Shameful.)

Lest anyone think I'm not an Apple person, I bought the first iphone on Day 2 and will be purchasing this one on Saturday. And all my personal computers are Macs.

But that doesn't mean I don't see an ***hole company when I see one.

Because then you get a bunch of idiots trying to synch a third party knock off product hacked together in eastern europe or china (but by pirates I mean) with drivers that are scrapped together and hardly work and then their support teams are inundated with frustrated customers and calls bitching them out for not working.

Now, did I just describe Microsoft Windows or what????

[Goona]

Only on the Internet is leeching of someone's product in an illegal manner competition.

[dieselpounder]

Sucks for the pre owners who have to update their phone anytime apple says, wouldnt it be nice if your phone just worked? Oh, wait, mine does.

Weird, mine doesn't. Hope Palm figures out online synching. Carrying a laptop around is so 1998.

[dukebound85]

good thing there is doubletwist (http://www.doubletwist.com/dt/Home/Index.dt)

seriously, who needs itunes when you have this program?

[uaaerospace]

Why are they so afraid of hardware competition that they go out of their way to shut out software support for anything other than the mighty ipod? They want us all in, on everything. And you know what? They are not necessarily the best choice for everything.

I don't think that's the main issue. If Apple releases an update to iTunes that happens to not work with the Pre, they don't want Palm and the Pre owners crying foul. It's better to lay the claim up front than for it to be a surprise.

The same can be said of web broswers. My college's online courses are designed/tested to work with IE, Firefox, and Safari. Does that mean you can't use something else? No, but it's not guaranteed to work. Same with Apple in this situation...

[uaaerospace]

On another note I mistook Goona's posts to be Doctor Q.

Arg, I did the same thing!

[Michael73]

I think most people who love macs love 'em because they just work. What's wrong with a company putting out software and issuing a statement that says we guarantee that our software will work with our devices and we don't test other devices therefore cannot guarantee they will always work with our software? I don't see this as a black and white statement, either you're with us or you're against us. I just see it as apple telling the world we QA for our devices and that's it. If it happens to dissuade some people from buying third party devices and getting apple devices well then that's a bonus too.

[blur35mm]

I also don't understand why people are against the Palm Pre syncing with iTunes, don't people want choice? How does it hurt them when the Pre can sync with iTunes? Apple isn't our friend, they are a business, and their main goal is to suck as much money as possible from us.

Also there are other ways to sync with iTunes, via third party programs, should Apple block all those programs from running under Mac OS X? Maybe Apple should make an Mac OS X app store and only programs approved by Apple can run on a Mac. After all most people here seem to hate choice.

Really a dumb feature by PALM if you ask me. They should have gotten it sanctioned from the beginning positioning themselves as no threat to the iPhone. Instead they just pissed Apple off and this is what they get.

Most of my friends that like PALM (note they are not upgrading to Pre's just yet) HATE anything to do with Apple in the first place so they won't be using iTunes.

The only people who own PRE's using this feature are the ex-Apple engineers and management they hired away from Apple.

Duh....

[blur35mm]

I think most people who love macs love 'em because they just work. What's wrong with a company putting out software and issuing a statement that says we guarantee that our software will work with our devices and we don't test other devices therefore cannot guarantee they will always work with our software? I don't see this as a black and white statement, either you're with us or you're against us. I just see it as apple telling the world we QA for our devices and that's it. If it happens to dissuade some people from buying third party devices and getting apple devices well then that's a bonus too.

Exactly. It just works. Case in point. Last night plugged my Mac Pro and PowerBook into a NetGear gbit switch. Also plugged in my wife's Vista laptop and son's XP desktop into the other ports.

My Mac's worked flawlessly with their internet connection. I couldn't have gotten the Vista and XP machines working if my life depended on it so I gave up completely. Someone said something about an IP conflict, but why the FUDGE do my Macs work flawlessly???

Also, I love how on Best Buy's site if you click to buy the Palm Pre there is a banner strip above it that says "iPhone 3GS coming soon!"

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9337595&st=palm+pre&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1218087261903

And why the heck is it $849????

PALM has blown this one completely...

[Eidorian]

good thing there is doubletwist (http://www.doubletwist.com/dt/Home/Index.dt)

seriously, who needs itunes when you have this program?I'll have to give them a try again. I'd like my iTunes music to be accessible on other devices and not deal with iTunes.

[Infrared]

This is true, but Apple's entire approach to the iPod and iPhone (marketing-wise, at least) has been hardware/software synergy.

Yes. They both fail together ;)

[cliffrouse11bas]

I have no doubt that Apple sunk a lot of money and time into the R&D for iTunes and iPod and that's to say nothing of the seemingly thankless efforts they made to convince content providers that digital distribution was the way to go. After having taken the big risks and put in all the work, why should they be expected to share any piece of that?

Piggy-backing on Apple's products isn't "hardware competition." That's just lazy. Why shouldn't Palm develop and promote their own music store? That would be true competition. I wonder why you're not angry at Palm for their reluctance to embrace competition on that level.

This reminds me of the silly message that Netflix posted about how Apple wouldn't license their DRM so they couldn't offer streaming to Mac users yet. Just because Apple developed the content-protection scheme that Netflix needed didn't automatically mean Netflix had any rights to it. Netflix should have put in the time and energy to develop their own DRM if they needed it. Likewise, Palm has no business intruding on iTunes.

Apple's business model has always involved eschewing the tech industry's conventional wisdom that you need to license your software to all takers. That's Apple's business model. Differing types of business models also represent a type of competition. Would you deny Apple's right to compete in that way?

I agree with you that Apple has devoted a lot of money to into iTunes, but hey they have spent a lot of money developing Safari, yet they allow that on a Windows machine. If they can make money of Pre customers so be it. Apple's should make their products superior, then customers would buy them over another product regardless of their syncing abilities. Until they open the iPhone up to more than one carrier I will never on a iPhone again. AT&T is the crooked company not Apple. I was tired of having my 1999 Blackberry speeds (AT&T still Edge in my neck of the woods unless I go 100 miles away from my home town) on my iPhone so I switched to the Pre(Which I have 3g speeds in my home town and pretty much the majority of North Carolina) and so far am not looking back. Again, I do not use iTunes to sync my music. There are too many other options out there.

[kdarling]

Compared to Apple's own licenses, that help topic article is downright mild. The article:

However, Apple does not provide support for, or test for compatibility with, non-Apple digital media players and, because software changes over time, newer versions of Apple's iTunes software may no longer provide syncing functionality with non-Apple digital media players.

Versus the Apple software license (caps are theirs, bold is mine):

TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, THE iPHONE SOFTWARE AND SERVICES PERFORMED BY THE iPHONE SOFTWARE ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE", WITH ALL FAULTS AND WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, AND

APPLE DOES NOT WARRANT AGAINST INTERFERENCE WITH YOUR ENJOYMENT OF THE iPHONE SOFTWARE AND SERVICES, THAT THE FUNCTIONS CONTAINED IN OR SERVICES PERFORMED BY THE iPHONE SOFTWARE WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, THAT THE OPERATION OF THE iPHONE SOFTWARE AND SERVICES WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, THAT DEFECTS IN THE iPHONE SOFTWARE OR SERVICES WILL BE CORRECTED, OR THAT THE iPHONE SOFTWARE WILL BE COMPATIBLE OR WORK WITH ANY THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE, APPLICATIONS OR THIRD PARTY SERVICES.

Apple has constantly disclaimed that anything they write is guaranteed to work with any device, including their own products.

[QCassidy352]

hate hate hate

Why are they so afraid of hardware competition that they go out of their way to shut out software support for anything other than the mighty ipod? They want us all in, on everything. And you know what? They are not necessarily the best choice for everything.

(Needing freaking mobileme in order to remotely zap your data? Shameful.)

Lest anyone think I'm not an Apple person, I bought the first iphone on Day 2 and will be purchasing this one on Saturday. And all my personal computers are Macs.

But that doesn't mean I don't see an ***hole company when I see one.

Don't be naive. Palm is a competitor. They're piggybacking off of apple's IP and using it as a selling point. Apple can do something about that. Therefore they will (and from a business perspective, should).

[Goona]

I hope Apple bricks the Palm Pres that connect to iTunes.

[nws0291]

And why the heck is it $849????

PALM has blown this one completely...

You can buy the phone for $550 from Sprint. The $849 is just Best Buy's price which is always inflated like other phones they sell out of contract.


Also I have decided to stay with the Pre since it is a better complete phone and I am an Apple fanatic. The way the Pre syncs with iTunes can't be broken without Apple completely changing the way they allow iPods to sync. They would need to push an updated firmware to every iPod. Also I can easily edit the code if apple decides to update it. Palm may not update it but since it's so easy to root the phone and change stuff I don't have to rely on Palm to fix things. I can do it myself.

[blur35mm]

You can buy the phone for $550 from Sprint. The $849 is just Best Buy's price which is always inflated like other phones they sell out of contract.


Also I have decided to stay with the Pre since it is a better complete phone and I am an Apple fanatic. The way the Pre syncs with iTunes can't be broken without Apple completely changing the way they allow iPods to sync. They would need to push an updated firmware to every iPod. Also I can easily edit the code if apple decides to update it. Palm may not update it but since it's so easy to root the phone and change stuff I don't have to rely on Palm to fix things. I can do it myself.

Cool good luck! I had a Treo755p bought it the week before iPhone 1G. Had it for 18months paid my insurance then one day it just died. Stuck on the Access Powered boot screen. Took it to Sprint store guy said I had to pay $50 deductible for a new phone EVEN THOUGH I had paid $7 insurance for 18 months up until then.

Told him forget it and canceled my phone right there on the spot.

Sprint sucks butt. Not to mention that everyone complained whenever I called them that the service sounded terrible. Sorry PALM, you lost me. iPhone 3GS here I come. I want it as a micro computer with all the apps phone service is secondary to me.

My work blackberry on Sprint sounds a lot better than the Treo. Maybe Pre is a lot better but wait until the defects start coming to light they won't be able to adapt as quickly as Apple has in the past.

[drewsky5]

July 7th:
iTunes 8.2.3
-Opens iTunes to sync with Palm Pre-
-Plugs in USB-
-Palm Pre crashes-
Palm Pre crash screen says:
"Erasing Data and Firmware Files"
iTunes says:
"That's for buying a Palm Pre. Next time, buy an iPhone. -iPhone 3GS shows up on screen.-"

haha. this made me laugh.

hate hate hate

Why are they so afraid of hardware competition that they go out of their way to shut out software support for anything other than the mighty ipod? They want us all in, on everything. And you know what? They are not necessarily the best choice for everything.

(Needing freaking mobileme in order to remotely zap your data? Shameful.)

Lest anyone think I'm not an Apple person, I bought the first iphone on Day 2 and will be purchasing this one on Saturday. And all my personal computers are Macs.

But that doesn't mean I don't see an ***hole company when I see one.

Apple isn't in the business to sell the Palm Pre, or even give anyone a reason to buy one (IE iTunes Support)

[alhedges]

I think Apple's comment has to be taken at face value: there is no guarantee that future updates will be compatible with third-party devices.

I think that Apple does want to be careful to avoid running afoul of antitrust regulators, which could happen if they deliberately broke syncing with third party devices.

[cliffrouse11bas]

haha. this made me laugh.



Apple isn't in the business to sell the Palm Pre, or even give anyone a reason to buy one (IE iTunes Support)

But Apple is in the business of selling music, movies, and etc. More money for Apple. If someone that can't have AT&T why not give them another choice and at least sell them media off iTunes and quite possible even sell more macs.

[twoodcc]

apple needs to stop the pre from syncing with itunes anyways, and they just might tomorrow!

[nws0291]

Cool good luck! I had a Treo755p bought it the week before iPhone 1G. Had it for 18months paid my insurance then one day it just died. Stuck on the Access Powered boot screen. Took it to Sprint store guy said I had to pay $50 deductible for a new phone EVEN THOUGH I had paid $7 insurance for 18 months up until then.

Told him forget it and canceled my phone right there on the spot.

Sprint sucks butt. Not to mention that everyone complained whenever I called them that the service sounded terrible. Sorry PALM, you lost me. iPhone 3GS here I come. I want it as a micro computer with all the apps phone service is secondary to me.

My work blackberry on Sprint sounds a lot better than the Treo. Maybe Pre is a lot better but wait until the defects start coming to light they won't be able to adapt as quickly as Apple has in the past.


Did you even read the TEP insurance plan. There has always been a deductible from day one. You agreed to that when you started paying for the insurance.

The 755p sucks and is nothing like the Pre. Sprint in South Florida is better than AT&T which is over saturated and has crap speeds. The Sprint data network is much faster. Obviously this can be very different where you live.

Also "adapt as quickly as Apple has in the past" is kind of funny because they are slow as hell to push updates.

I will agree with most people that the Pre's WebOS was pushed out premature and I would still consider it beta level. The way the OS was designed from a coding perspective is very friendly and there is HUGE potential for this platform. I would recommend anyone to get a pre to try even if they plan to return it before the 30 days. It's nice to see what the device/OS combo is capable of. Then push Apple to adopt some of the concepts. Right now the iPhone is the better complete package being held down by a couple software restrictions and being tied to AT&T.

[Rootus]

I think that Apple does want to be careful to avoid running afoul of antitrust regulators, which could happen if they deliberately broke syncing with third party devices. Apple is nowhere near having a monopoly, so those rules don't apply to them.

[cocky jeremy]

hate hate hate

Why are they so afraid of hardware competition that they go out of their way to shut out software support for anything other than the mighty ipod? They want us all in, on everything. And you know what? They are not necessarily the best choice for everything.

(Needing freaking mobileme in order to remotely zap your data? Shameful.)

Lest anyone think I'm not an Apple person, I bought the first iphone on Day 2 and will be purchasing this one on Saturday. And all my personal computers are Macs.

But that doesn't mean I don't see an ***hole company when I see one.
You're an idiot if you think they don't deserve to keep their own software to themselves and if you think they shouldn't be allowed to keep it away from other companies. What did you expect? Them to hold Palm's hand and say, "Sure, use our software."?

[AidenShaw]

But Apple is in the business of selling music, movies, and etc. More money for Apple. If someone that can't have AT&T why not give them another choice and at least sell them media off iTunes and quite possible even sell more macs.

Be careful, you could be banned from the forum for showing evidence of rational thinking.... :eek:


Apple is nowhere near having a monopoly, so those rules don't apply to them.

Better check the rules again....

(And note that the anti-trust laws don't mention having a certain percentage of the market as the definition of a monopoly.)

[Goona]

Apple is nowhere near having a monopoly, so those rules don't apply to them.

People should stop talking about this monopoly crap. These guys at Palm are just being plain ol' hackers. Instead of creating a program to sync with itunes or even better maybe even try to license it from Apple, they want to become hackers. Imagine if Apple had hacked Microsoft Exchange instead of licensing it from Microsoft and advertising it as a feature with Snow Leopard, there would be outrage and Microsoft would have their lawyers lined up.

[thescort]

This is Apple, iMean we should know already how they approach this type of thing.
They provide compatibility with a select number of devices in pretty much all scenarios. Select graphics cards, ram, routers, blah blah blah. The same goes for peripherals. They only support the Iphone/pod.

Ideally this means fewer drives, less complication, easier and better support, and that things, for the most part, just work.

I really doubt this is a scare tactic or anything insidious. As many have mentioned before, this is apple telling users of 3rd party devices that there will be no support. Apple does not want to deal with that ****.
One(ish) device keeps things simple. Just imagine if iTunes was bogged down with drivers same way OSX is bogged down with Printer drivers!!

[walnuts]

Boo on competition that has to hack another companies IP in order to create the same experience as that company. Palm needs to create its own software to sync with the Pre.

Your comment is fair, but at the same time, I don't want to have to move my music collection to Palm's proprietary software. Does every device have to have its own iTunes?

I wasn't up on all this when iTunes first started, but it seems to me that it swindled its way into a dominant position. In the beginning, it lured others in by supporting other devices, by fooling them into thinking that iTunes would serve as a universal jukebox that would work with all of your devices. However, once iPods had a dominant market share, iTunes stopped supporting competitors.

IMHO, apple should give up this petty attempt to oust other hardware to support its music store and not force users into the iPod ecosystem by holding their music collections hostage. I have read the rumors that the music store breaks even to sell ipods, but still, if we truly own our music, why make it hard for other devices to access it.

Don't get me wrong though I still like the stuff- I'm getting the 3G S on Friday...

[commander.data]

...you don't think they might be monitoring the compatibility of their own devices a little more closely than those of palm?
Well seeing there are reports that 10.5.7 is causing problems with the Bluetooth Mighty Mouse it's been known to happen.

[gwangung]

Be careful, you could be banned from the forum for showing evidence of rational thinking.... :eek:




Better check the rules again....

(And note that the anti-trust laws don't mention having a certain percentage of the market as the definition of a monopoly.)

Aw cripes, I expect better thinking out of you than this, Aiden.

Gonna be hard to raise anti-trust issues. Gonna have to show Apple is raising barriers to entry to OTHER music providers, not just raising barriers to their own service to devices other than their own. Apple is not compelled to make it easy for other devices to access their software when there no barriers for Palm to work with other providers---as you imply, size, in and of itself, is not a barrier to entry into a market place.

[dukebound85]

Your comment is fair, but at the same time, I don't want to have to move my music collection to Palm's proprietary software. Does every device have to have its own iTunes?

.

thats exactly th purpose of doubletwist (http://www.doubletwist.com/dt/Home/Index.dt)....to prevent each device from needing its own software

[eastercat]

hate hate hate

Why are they so afraid of hardware competition that they go out of their way to shut out software support for anything other than the mighty ipod? They want us all in, on everything. And you know what? They are not necessarily the best choice for everything.
Palm is piggybacking on the hard work of the people who created and maintained iTunes. That's not competition. That's stealing. iTunes isn't Linux. It belongs to Apple. Not Palm.
As others have pointed out, Palm could've sucked it up and developed their own means of syncing. But they didn't.
It's one thing to be angry at Apple for something they legitimately did wrong (e.g., taking away matte as an option for 15" MBPs). However, this is not one of them.

[DaGreat01]

Thats the problem you get when you have people that work for you and then leave with all you secrets...:rolleyes:

[cliffrouse11bas]

Palm is piggybacking on the hard work of the people who created and maintained iTunes. That's not competition. That's stealing. iTunes isn't Linux. It belongs to Apple. Not Palm.
As others have pointed out, Palm could've sucked it up and developed their own means of syncing. But they didn't.
It's one thing to be angry at Apple for something they legitimately did wrong (e.g., taking away matte as an option for 15" MBPs). However, this is not one of them.

I guess your definition of stealing is a little different than mine. PALM would be stealing if they were claiming it was there software. Theft occurs when you take something that is not yours and claim it as your own. I don't think PALM is doing that at all. If anything it makes Apple more competitive because they have more devices using iTunes. If Apple were to publicly open it up they would be better off. Then there sales would blow everyone off the charts.

[seedster2]

Looks like a scare tactic to frighten buyers off the competition.

Yep, also plainly stating that the device isn't supported. I doubt :apple: has much better recourse at the moment.

The comments regarding bricking PRE devices upon syncing are asinine at best:rolleyes:

[iphones4evry1]

The Pre has been discovered to accomplish this feat by emulating an iPod (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/06/05/palm-pre-roundup-public-launch-tomorrow-syncs-with-itunes-8-2/) by transmitting Apple-specific vendor and product IDs to iTunes.
Is that even legal to "emulate Apple-specific vendor and product IDs" ?????

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/06/16/apple-issues-advisory-regarding-third-party-devices-syncing-with-itunes/)
"The brief document warns users that Apple does not test its software with such devices and thus their ability to sync with iTunes may be broken by future software updates."
I don't think Apple should specifically try to block out 3rd party MP3 players. I think they should just continue to make updates and do business as usual and whatever happens, happens. The victims will be the consumers of other devices (sometimes generic MP3 players that poor people buy for half the price of the iPod - these people should not be intentionally blocked out). However, upon second thought, maybe Apple should jump on this ASAP and block the Pre and others and make sure the public knows NOW before future customers run out and buy those devices. Maybe that is the better plan. Plus, I'll bet the Walmart $19 MP3 players don't even sync to iTunes. Is the Pre the only non-Apple MP3 player that syncs to iTunes?

[Jimmetry]

Good ol' MacRumours forums overreacting again :rolleyes:

- Vendor ID
- Product ID
- Firmware Version

Unless Apple has hidden authentication protocols in their hardware and suddenly decide to use them for no reason at all, the Pre will always be able to communicate with iTunes because it can emulate those details unless:

- Apple stops supporting one of their own devices. Won't happen. The only reason to exclude an old driver would be to stop the emulation specifically, which would get a pretty big backlash.

- Apple issues a firmware update for each and every iPod and makes the upgrade mandatory (i.e. can't sync until you update). Won't happen. Nearly 200 million iPods have been sold worldwide, and you would get an incredible backlash for an update that is apparently necessary for every single one of them including ye olde clickwheelpod.

tl;dr

The pre is safe with supporting basic functions. Genius and future changes may well be unsupported, but basic syncing will remain.

[Jimmetry]

Is that even legal to "emulate Apple-specific vendor and product IDs" ?????

Not 100% certain, but I'm quite sure it is, and has been used for a long time.

For example.. older sound cards could emulate a Sound Blaster if the driver wasn't available so that the user would at least have basic functionality... and video cards had certain reference alternatives for basic unaccelerated VGA etc.

Don't quote me on this, because I haven't researched it, but it seems the logical way to go when you're trying to get a device to map to a driver that doesn't exist (which means the computer has no idea what how to communicate with it.. if you emulate something common, the protocol is defined and your device isn't a paperweight).

[mambodancer]

The statement made by Apple says they don't support "Syncing" by third party devices and warns that future software updates may break this feature. That is very different than saying that the device won't support manual file transfers within iTunes (drag and drop) of which there have been dozens of devices over the years that have supported this feature in the past.

The distinction is key, I think. It implies, at least to me, that any playlists, photos, contacts, calendars or email accounts that "might" sync AUTOMATICALLY within iTunes now, might not later. What no one on this forum has said, is whether this is in fact what the PRE is doing...automatically syncing with the iTunes playlists and libraries. If someone with a Pre could definitively answer this question, I think a lot of misinformation could be cleared away. If, on the other hand, all the Pre supports is Manually dragging and dropping music and playlists to the Pre under the iTunes Devices list, that is a different thing entirely. Do changes in iTunes Playlists update automatically on the Pre? Do Photos from iPhoto sync automatically on the Pre? What about Contacts and Calendars and integration with AddressBook and iCal? There has got to be some user on this forum with a Pre that can answer this question for us all, isn't there?

Finally, DoubleTwist is an excellent application for moving and converting Media from your Mac or PC to your mobile device but while some mention is made for "syncing" no demo or further explanation on their website explains exactly what that means. All of their demos show simple "drag and drop" to and from the device to the computer (although definitely not music from the device back into the iTunes library).

In the end, you will still need a second piece of software like Missing Sync to sync Contacts and Calendars.

[Goona]

I guess your definition of stealing is a little different than mine. PALM would be stealing if they were claiming it was there software. Theft occurs when you take something that is not yours and claim it as your own. I don't think PALM is doing that at all. If anything it makes Apple more competitive because they have more devices using iTunes. If Apple were to publicly open it up they would be better off. Then there sales would blow everyone off the charts.

It makes Apple more competitive, how is hacking Itunes making any one competitive, if Palm was developing an alternative to itunes you could talk about competition but this, come on. :rolleyes:

[amorican]

Breaking the iTunes sync would have no significant affect to Pre owners. You can hook the Pre up as a USB drive and drag your music straight into the music folder on the Pre. I have a Mac, and use iTunes yet all the music I have on my Pre I've just transferred via the USB drive method. No big deal.

[kdarling]

Is that even legal to "emulate Apple-specific vendor and product IDs" ?????

Emulating Apple's vendor id is a violation of the agreement that companies make to get a USB certified label.

So, in theory, the USB-IF could revoke Palm's ability to put one of those red white and blue USB labels on their equipment.

[Goona]

Breaking the iTunes sync would have no significant affect to Pre owners. You can hook the Pre up as a USB drive and drag your music straight into the music folder on the Pre. I have a Mac, and use iTunes yet all the music I have on my Pre I've just transferred via the USB drive method. No big deal.

If it's no big deal why then heck is Palm touting it as a feature?

[ALUOp]

I hope this won't result in the inability of future jailbreaking due to tighter control in future iTunes. Stupid Palm.

[173080]

Apple has a great opportunity to screw with Palm.

Although the Pre identifies itself as an iPod there must be something that gives it away. Perhaps it's the available memory, the read/write speeds, the file system structure, etc.

Every time a Pre tries to sync with iTunes it would work, but Apple could screw up the software and system on the Pre pseudorandomly, completely transparent to the user. Maybe even lower the music quality, add some pops and crackles. Screw up the number of a contact here and there, disable the alarm for an appointment or change it from 2:30 p.m to a.m., etc. Just general screwing around that would annoy the user, but not too evidently to give Apple away.

This would slowly aggravate Pre users and they'd have no one but Palm to blame. Slowly but surely they'd start dumping the Pre and they would be left with a sour image of Palm.

[AidenShaw]

Gonna have to show Apple is raising barriers to entry to OTHER music providers, not just raising barriers to their own service to devices other than their own.

Apple is not compelled to make it easy for other devices to access their software when there no barriers for Palm to work with other providers---as you imply, size, in and of itself, is not a barrier to entry into a market place.

Raising barriers to other devices is an anti-trust issue, is it not?

It's not just about music sellers, it's about MP3 players as well.

If Apple uses their dominant market share in music sales to protect their dominant share in MP3 players - that raises antitrust issues.

[amorican]

If it's no big deal why then heck is Palm touting it as a feature?
Because syncing to iTunes at least for the moment IS a feature that the device possesses. My point is that owning a Pre myself, I prefer just dragging and dropping my music to using iTunes. The larger point is that it's just as easy, if not easier, to drag and drop, as it is to use iTunes...:eek::apple: is god.

[Sehnsucht]

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr214/TheDavidFrom1988/eusa_boohoo.gif

Big deal.

EDIT: Meaning, big deal...the Pre can sync with iTunes. So what...

[iMaggot]

This is going to get fun soon.

[Dmac77]

So this is Apple speak for, "we're going to kill the Pre's ability to sync in the next update." Right?

Don

[MagnusVonMagnum]

I can't believe...I take that back. I CAN believe some of the responses from the typical fanatics on here. But regardless, Apple should simply license iTunes sync support to companies like Palm. Now that DRM is no longer an issue for music, any excuses Apple makes for not supporting more hardware even if the companies are willing to pay for that support just doesn't hold water. Not wanting to compete with other companies goes down that same road of conflicting interests of running both hardware and software businesses by the same company. A software only company would support as much as possible. A hardware company would pay to get support and one that does both tries to use one business market (software) to prevent all competition for their other market (hardware).

In these cases, supporting more hardware means more software sales (i.e. songs, etc. from the iTunes Store). Now why in the world would a company NOT want more sales from their store? Well, only when there's a conflict of interest that generates more money. In other words, Apple makes larger profits from iPod sales than selling the music in their store so it's in their interest to not allow anyone else to use iTunes. And basically, I read between the lines this warning basically means they will actively try to thwart all such functionality in the future. That probably IS illegal since it's active anti-competition (similar to Microsoft trying to prevent others from using hooks in their operating system to achieve similar functionality to what Microsoft themselves have access to), but they'll claim it's just "coincidence" that it no longer works in the future. But doing things like encrypting certain key files in iTunes so that 3rd party programs in the Linux world can no longer function with iTunes databases, etc. have already been done by Apple. They always claimed it had to do with their DRM encryption, but now that it's gone, it'll be all too obvious that they simply want to prevent as much competition as possible.

I wonder what will be next. Maybe if you want to release software for Snow Leopard, you HAVE to distribute it via the Apple Store online and iTunes like with the iPhone and give Apple 30% of your profits??? Crazy? I don't think so. Apple has already done it with the iPhone and iPod Touch and they seem to believe because they're a smaller player than Microsoft that no rules apply to them and they're free to do any dirty underhanded tricks they feel like doing when it comes to the Mac market place. The fanatics wouldn't mind. They'd just remind us that it's Apple's operating system and they're allowed to do anything they want with it including telling you that you must give them your first child if you want to use OS X. After all, you can always go to Windows if you don't like it. You have no rights as a consumer as far as they're concerned.

[amorican]

I assume it's a warning of sorts. I could be wrong though, who knows really? For people who don't understand the drag and drop method I speak of for transferring music, Apple is just losing money off of music sales. More Pre owners will just use Amazon. The Pre syncing to iTunes makes more money for Apple.

[Beric]

So this is Apple speak for, "we're going to kill the Pre's ability to sync in the next update." Right?

Don

No, because Apple makes money when Pre owners buy songs from iTunes.

Apple is simply saying they "can". An idle threat that will most likely not be realized.

[Sehnsucht]

I can't believe...I take that back. I CAN believe some of the responses from the typical fanatics on here. But regardless, Apple should simply license iTunes sync support to companies like Palm. Now that DRM is no longer an issue for music, any excuses Apple makes for not supporting more hardware even if the companies are willing to pay for that support just doesn't hold water. Not wanting to compete with other companies goes down that same road of conflicting interests of running both hardware and software businesses by the same company. A software only company would support as much as possible. A hardware company would pay to get support and one that does both tries to use one business market (software) to prevent all competition for their other market (hardware).

In these cases, supporting more hardware means more software sales (i.e. songs, etc. from the iTunes Store). Now why in the world would a company NOT want more sales from their store? Well, only when there's a conflict of interest that generates more money. In other words, Apple makes larger profits from iPod sales than selling the music in their store so it's in their interest to not allow anyone else to use iTunes. And basically, I read between the lines this warning basically means they will actively try to thwart all such functionality in the future. That probably IS illegal since it's active anti-competition (similar to Microsoft trying to prevent others from using hooks in their operating system to achieve similar functionality to what Microsoft themselves have access to), but they'll claim it's just "coincidence" that it no longer works in the future. But doing things like encrypting certain key files in iTunes so that 3rd party programs in the Linux world can no longer function with iTunes databases, etc. have already been done by Apple. They always claimed it had to do with their DRM encryption, but now that it's gone, it'll be all too obvious that they simply want to prevent as much competition as possible.

I wonder what will be next. Maybe if you want to release software for Snow Leopard, you HAVE to distribute it via the Apple Store online and iTunes like with the iPhone and give Apple 30% of your profits??? Crazy? I don't think so. Apple has already done it with the iPhone and iPod Touch and they seem to believe because they're a smaller player than Microsoft that no rules apply to them and they're free to do any dirty underhanded tricks they feel like doing when it comes to the Mac market place. The fanatics wouldn't mind. They'd just remind us that it's Apple's operating system and they're allowed to do anything they want with it including telling you that you must give them your first child if you want to use OS X. After all, you can always go to Windows if you don't like it. You have no rights as a consumer as far as they're concerned.

Can I have your MacBook Pro? :D

[mc3s]

This is sooooo non-news. It would cost Apple money to make sure iTunes had satisfactory support for third party devices. In many cases it is up to hardware manufacturers to create drivers for their own hardware to remain compatible with OS's. This is very similar to that.

If Palm wants bragging rights about being able to sync with iTunes then they are going to have to be the ones to keep their device compatible with it. This isn't Apple's responsibility. To think Apple would spend the time and money on someone else's hardware is foolish.

All this means to me is if the Pre works with iTunes then that's fine but don't expect any help and support from Apple, call Palm with your problems.

[slapppy]

If Palm wants an iTunes type store, then build it. Instead they are acting lazy and hacks into iTunes. The sooner Apple cuts them off the better.

[oticon6]

If Palm wants an iTunes type store, then build it. Instead they are acting lazy and hacks into iTunes. The sooner Apple cuts them off the better.

That's exactly what we need... a million online music stores :rolleyes:

While this may impact Apple's hardware sales, they still benefit.

- They're holding the backbone of something critical to a competitor. It's like when MacOS relied on Internet Explorer as the browser.. or how even now, we're forced to use a shoddy implementation of Office (08) that is quite deliberately terrible.. knowing that there's a native, streamlined, well-developed Windows counterpart (07). Constant advertising

- Apple can treat the Palm as an old, outdated iPod. If you want the Genius feature on your iPod Nano, you have to buy the new version. Using iTunes and saying "man, I wish I could do -x- on my device... if only I had an iPod/iPhone" is pretty effective advertising. I only started buying Apple hardware because I started using OSx86, really liked it and wanted the hardware to be more compatible

- iTunes is a store. At the moment, it's run at cost... but as everyone moves digital and the RIAA b-stards crack down on file sharing, the profit margin will begin to show.

[BongoBanger]

*looks at article*

Oh look, it's Gruber senseationalising things again. This is a standard disclaimer nothing more.

As for you who hate the Pre or Palm - get a life, kids, it's just a consumer device, not an invading army.

[SeaFox]

I'm surprised it hasn't been on there before this, I mean, this isn't the first time Apple's said "oh well we wont try to change iTunes to keep it from working with _________, we're just sayin', ya know.... accidents happen".

Also, classic reaction here. Everyone's all Yea Apple, Boo Palm. But none of them except Aiden Shaw see this for what it is, yet another form of DRM and product lockin.

[Abstract]

I don't like this.

This is too much on the same level of what MS did with Internet Explorer, and we all know how that ended up (in Europe, anyway).


It's one thing to include the music software on all Macs, but I hope they don't go out of their way to break compatibility with every non-iPod. If compatibility accidentally breaks, then it breaks, and there's an update by Palm. Fair enough. Otherwise, this is Apple locking down the music software bundled with Macs to be compatible only with Apple's own music player, and that's an abuse of their position, essentially eliminating competition using their position rather than by strictly by developing a superior product. It's anti-competitive, and anti-competitive behaviour is one of the reasons why Mac users jumped on the bandwagon of criticising Microsoft's unethical business practice. ;)

In comparison, companies can make their mp3 players compatible with WMP on Windows if they want. That's called choice, folks. The other fair option would be to not bundle audio software on the Mac, and have people download the music player of their choice, which is what is done in Europe with regards to internet browsers.

Personally, I hope Apple gets called on this, perhaps penalised. It wouldn't happen in N. America, but perhaps in Europe. :)

[andrew.bussman]

This story actually reminds me of what happened with Audion. Of course that situation was in reverse (Panic trying to write an app that could sync with the iPod) but Apple soon pulled the plug on that one by releasing a firmware update, retiring Audion permanently. It seems to me Palm could have seen this coming given such a history.

[mc3s]

In comparison, companies can make their mp3 players compatible with WMP on Windows if they want. That's called choice, folks.

But Palm DID make the Pre compatible with iTunes. It's just their responsibility to keep it compatible before Apple gets complaints from angry Pre owners discussing something they have nothing to do with.

If Apple pulls the d**k move of intentionally stopping third party hardware from working with iTunes I'll be right there with you with my dissatisfaction. At this point though I think its just standard fare for Apple to release some info that they aren't going to be spending the time and money it would take to make sure each update to their software is going to be compatible with someone else's hardware.

[bruinsrme]

Exactly. It just works. Case in point. Last night plugged my Mac Pro and PowerBook into a NetGear gbit switch. Also plugged in my wife's Vista laptop and son's XP desktop into the other ports.

My Mac's worked flawlessly with their internet connection. I couldn't have gotten the Vista and XP machines working if my life depended on it so I gave up completely. Someone said something about an IP conflict, but why the FUDGE do my Macs work flawlessly???

Also, I love how on Best Buy's site if you click to buy the Palm Pre there is a banner strip above it that says "iPhone 3GS coming soon!"

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9337595&st=palm+pre&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1218087261903

And why the heck is it $849????

PALM has blown this one completely...

simply laughable

Why in the world are you blaming Palm for Best Buy posting the $849 price?

[Abstract]

But Palm DID make the Pre compatible with iTunes. It's just their responsibility to keep it compatible before Apple gets complaints from angry Pre owners discussing something they have nothing to do with.

You're right, but they don't make it clearly compatible either. See any "Compatible with iTunes" stickers on other mp3 players? Nope. You'd see that on the Windows side though. WMP is bundled with the OS, but in consequence, there are non-Zune players that officially work with WMP. It's organised to be like this. In the case of the Pre and iTunes compatibility, it isn't the case.

No, Apple doesn't get in your way. However, they bundle a software with Mac OS, and Macs, and make sure that other manufacturers have to trick the software they bundled into thinking it's an iPod, when in fact, it's not. There's no way to ensure that the same set of data is passed from iTunes to non-iPods, which breaks lots of compatibility with features.

If Microsoft did that, they'd be in trouble in Europe. I think Apple should be as well. It keeps both companies on their toes.



If Apple pulls the d**k move of intentionally stopping third party hardware from working with iTunes I'll be right there with you with my dissatisfaction.

Fair enough. :)

[Phil A.]

You're right, but they don't make it clearly compatible either. See any "Compatible with iTunes" stickers on other mp3 players? Nope. You'd see that on the Windows side though. WMP is bundled with the OS, but in consequence, there are non-Zune players that officially work with WMP. It's organised to be like this. In the case of the Pre and iTunes compatibility, it isn't the case.


The really funny thing with the Zune is that it isn't compatible with Windows Media player and requires it's own software to sync and manage it. Talk about an own goal from Microsoft!


As others have said this is just a CYA statement from Apple. As far as all those people saying Palm should develop their own syncing, they have: it's called drag and drop!

iTunes syncing is just provided as a convenience and an option for the user. If Apple were stupid enough (which they aren't IMO) to go out of their way to break iTunes specifically for Pre's, the winner would be Palm who would very quickly put out a press release proclaiming Apple were so scared of the Pre that they had to go out of their way to inconvenience their users.

Apple (unlike some people on the internet - I can't believe there are people who think bricking a Pre would be a good idea: This isn't grade school!) are very smart and this statement simply states their position in a clear way that puts the cost of supporting the Pre squarely in Palms hands.

[bruinsrme]

This is sooooo non-news. It would cost Apple money to make sure iTunes had satisfactory support for third party devices. In many cases it is up to hardware manufacturers to create drivers for their own hardware to remain compatible with OS's. This is very similar to that.

If Palm wants bragging rights about being able to sync with iTunes then they are going to have to be the ones to keep their device compatible with it. This isn't Apple's responsibility. To think Apple would spend the time and money on someone else's hardware is foolish.

All this means to me is if the Pre works with iTunes then that's fine but don't expect any help and support from Apple, call Palm with your problems.

Exactly how much money did it cost Apple to make sure the Pre was compatible?
It emulates an ipod. from what Ihave read so far is Apple is chaning the way things communicate with the ipxx devices. All apple has to do in not change the communication protocol to block other devices.

[booksacool1]

iTunes syncing is just provided as a convenience and an option for the user. If Apple were stupid enough (which they aren't IMO) to go out of their way to break iTunes specifically for Pre's, the winner would be Palm who would very quickly put out a press release proclaiming Apple were so scared of the Pre that they had to go out of their way to inconvenience their users.

Apple (unlike some people on the internet - I can't believe there are people who think bricking a Pre would be a good idea: This isn't grade school!) are very smart and this statement simply states their position in a clear way that puts the cost of supporting the Pre squarely in Palms hands.

Finally a sensible statement. This isn't a 'we are going to deliberately break compatibility with your product', this is a 'we are not responsible if our updates break compatibility with your product'.

I personally am disappointed that Apple hasn't opened up iTunes to other manufacturers. iTunes is much more important to me than ipods/iphones etc. I would gladly pay for this feature.

[Sehnsucht]

I wonder when Microsoft will make the Zune software Mac-compatible? :p

[MacFly123]

TOLD YA SO!!! Lol. :p

Apple will find a way to break it so that Palm can't keep fixing it, trust me!

I don't blame them at all.

[plinkoman]

Some people need to stop freaking out about this, and stop bringing up the same tired arguments that have been going around for years about the Mac and Mac OS. A closed system isn't a monopoly, and Apple has every legal right to have their software only be compatible with their hardware. Apple is doing nothing to prevent people from buying a pre or anything else, just as long as they're not using apple's software. It would only be monopolistic if they bought all competing software and locked it to the iPhone too.

The iPhone, iPod, and iTunes are all products I very much like and support, and I am glad to see Apple taking steps (or merely threatening such) to protect them.

That's all I have to say about that.

[ibosie]

Well deserved!

All the more reason just to stick with a better device (iPhone) , and network (AT&T) at that~~~Never having to worry about compatibility!

What's wrong with the natural form of competition? Apple are right to clarify the relationship with 3rd party hardware but, if it is happening, wrong to be deliberately destructive over the use of iTunes. Apple needs to project confidence not cowardice. Making iTunes the defacto centre of media for many devices is not a bad idea.

[peterdevries]

I don't like this.

This is too much on the same level of what MS did with Internet Explorer, and we all know how that ended up (in Europe, anyway).

No it isn't. Microsoft had a monopoly with the Windows and IE combo AND there were few alternatives. Apple isn't anywhere near a monopoly with iTunes AND there are lots of alternatives. People can download MP3's now anywhere. You won't have a crippled Pre if Apple disables the iTunes sync.

As the Pre is directly targeting the iPhone, it is common sense that Apple would block the synching. It would eat into the amount of sold iPhones. Remember that there are many people that love the iPhone, but would favor the Pre because it has a hardware keyboard. For these people the iTunes-Palm Pre combo could be a winner. The few iTunes songs that will be sold for the Pre may not compensate for the loss of iPhone sales.

In addition: most customers (except the ones here obviously) will not read those support statements from Apple. If Apple keeps the sync open and Pre's for whatever reason start experiencing problems (how about music goes missing that you purchased over iTunes?), the pre owners will not blame themselves or Palm but Apple. It's better to block it now and stay in control.

I say, let Palm build an app that interfaces with Amazon, and it's good to go. No need to build an own music store or to rely on Apple.

[plinkoman]

What's wrong with the natural form of competition?...

How is there anything anti-competitive about it? Is there not other software alternatives out there? Shouldn't said software makers be trying to compete with iTunes? Palm did a reasonable job in creating a competitive piece of hardware, can't they do the same with software?

[knightlie]

I hope Apple bricks the Palm Pres that connect to iTunes.

Your post is a perfect example of the kind of pathetic nastiness that has become prevalent on Apple forums in recent years whenever any kind of competition is mentioned.

I hope someone breaks into your home and drives a nail through all your Apple hardware. See how childish and irrational that sounds? :rolleyes:


And the people claiming that Palm's actions are illegal should provide a link to back that up, because I doubt very much that it's true. I don't support their actions, but it's hardly encroaching on Apples IP or breaking the law to give a fake USB device ID. :rolleyes:

[AlmostThere]

What Apple should do is work (lead!) other companies to develop an open mobile synchronization API (and it is not as if there isn't anything to go on).
This really just shows them up as hypocrites, touting open standards when it suits them and clamming up whenever someone else wants inter-operability.

Apple should be supporting people like Palm on this - if people know their devices "just work" with OS X, I am more likely to get a Mac. Unfortunately, the "just works" maxim is another feature Apple conveniently leave to one side when it suits them.

[peterdevries]

Apple should be supporting people like Palm on this - if people know their devices "just work" with OS X, I am more likely to get a Mac.

Yeah, but you won't buy an iPhone if you already have a perfectly syncing Pre.

[Phil A.]

Wirelessly posted (iPod touch 32GB: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_0 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7A341 Safari/528.16)

Apple should be supporting people like Palm on this - if people know their devices "just work" with OS X, I am more likely to get a Mac.

Yeah, but you won't buy an iPhone if you already have a perfectly syncing Pre.

I've read some strange statements on here in the past but that has to be up there with the best (or worst) of them!

Are you seriously suggesting for a single second that the only reason people buy iPhones is because they sync with iTunes and they'll stop using them as soon as a competitor can use their beloved iTunes?

[peterdevries]

I've read some strange statements on here in the past but that has to be up there with the best (or worst) of them!

Read my post a little bit more thoroughly. There's no need for that arrogant tone.


Are you seriously suggesting for a single second that the only reason people buy iPhones is because they sync with iTunes and they'll stop using them as soon as a competitor can use their beloved iTunes?

No... That's not what I'm suggesting. Again, read my post more thoroughly :rolleyes:

I also refer you to my previous post above.

[JQW]

Why all the fuss?

I've seen advisories of this nature for around 20 years or so, issued by many software and hardware companies. Their purpose is always the same - to prevent the issuing company from having to spend time and resources supporting their products from being used in situations which are not fully under their control. After all Palm's attempt to get their device to work with iTunes is nothing more than a cruel hack which just so happens to appear to work at the moment.

I've been in similar situations in the past. I worked for the UK supplier of one networking system some years ago. We had terrible problems with some third party ISDN routers which had attempted to emulate the networking protocol of the host operating system, but as they'd gone about it via unofficial means their implementation had several subtle and unpredictable bugs. This lead to unstable behaviour, particularly regarding corruption of routing tables. leading to many long-winded support calls. We had to issue a similar advisory stating that we simply wouldn't handle support calls for this hardware.

So this advisory is probably something very similar

[MH01]

Sucks for the pre owners who have to update their phone anytime apple says, wouldnt it be nice if your phone just worked? Oh, wait, mine does.

Guess you did not buy the first gen iphone then. Actually you must have just bought your iphone, cause some of us who bought the 1st get Iphone have had to go through a heap of updates cause apples said we did, but hey in the 3rd year we get copy and paste...so yeah take that Pre owners, sucks to be you!!!!!

[Mackan]

death to palm, though i'm kicking myself for not buying their stock after their january announcement. it jumped 35% in a day to close to $5, thought i missed out, now it's almost triple that. @$^@#$%

Apple fanboys at their finest.

[DELLsFan]

Looks like a scare tactic to frighten buyers off the competition.

No ... not scare ... more like arrogance. And it's interesting how Apple's "support" of third party devices depends on how much money the vendors are willing to fork over to Cupertino. It's not like there aren't any other non Apple devices able to sync to iTunes.

It seems to me, if Palm and Apple had come to some sort of midnight-at-the-gay-bar agreement on revenue and sharing of technology, all of this hype over the Pre and iTunes would have become moot.

[goosnarrggh]

It all comes down to backwards compatibility.

At this stage of the game, for example, Apple is extremely unlikely to ever issue a new firmware release targeting, say, the black & white 4th generation iPod.

Which means, if they want iTunes to maintain compatibility with such older iPod models, iTunes will have to continue to be capable of communicating with such models in pretty much the same way that it does today. Certainly, any changes they make on the iTunes side will still have to be limited to the confines of what's possible within the existing 4th generation iPod communication protocol.

So, if Palm (or any other 3rd party vendor) designs their device's iTunes compatibility layer to strictly simulate the communication protocol present in one such older iPod model, they stand a pretty good chance of maintaining compatibility with iTunes.

Obviously, though, it's not Apple's job to guarantee that compatibility exists, and rightfully so. Which means, if Apple does modify some aspect of the way in which iTunes communicates with such older iPods, and it exposes a bug in the 3rd party manufacturer's compatibility layer (ie an inaccuracy in some aspect of its simulation), then it would be entirely up to the 3rd party manufacturer, not Apple, to make things right.

By posting this disclaimer, Apple is just reminding users of 3rd party devices of the fact that compatibility with 3rd party devices is not Apple's responsibility. It is not necessarily an indication that any future intentional incompatibility is planned, or even that any future unintentional incompatibility is significantly probable.

[zey]

Second, Apple spent a lot of time, money, and effort developing iTunes. The iPod would not have been successful without it.
Glad for you that you have the iTunes love, but, I beg to differ. I've always liked the look of the high capacity storage of iPods, but, the fear of the need for proprietory iTunes is what has always held me off buying one.

MP3 players that show up as USB mass storage devices (and, ideally, able to be formatted in my filesystem of choice) are much more intuitive and trustworthy to me than music organiser software probably most known for its DRM. Is this iTunes thing going to be phoning home every week or what?

[gnasher729]

hate hate hate

Why are they so afraid of hardware competition that they go out of their way to shut out software support for anything other than the mighty ipod? They want us all in, on everything. And you know what? They are not necessarily the best choice for everything.

Very emotional. Apple doesn't shut anyone out. Apple just tells you very clearly that they are not testing any iTunes upgrades with any devices that are not officially supported (which is probably what their legal team advises them to do anyway, because they might be on slightly shakier grounds if they tested an upgrade and _know_ that it doesn't work with some device).

On the other hand, Palm has made the Palm Pre so that it _pretends_ to be an iPod when connected to iTunes. Excuse me, but Apple is absolutely in their rights to make the assumption that _any_ device connected to iTunes that shouts "hey, I'm an iPod" _is_ in fact an iPod, so if new iTunes versions are tested against any iPod that Apple has ever built then they have done their duty.

[Goona]

I don't like this.

This is too much on the same level of what MS did with Internet Explorer, and we all know how that ended up (in Europe, anyway).


It's one thing to include the music software on all Macs, but I hope they don't go out of their way to break compatibility with every non-iPod. If compatibility accidentally breaks, then it breaks, and there's an update by Palm. Fair enough. Otherwise, this is Apple locking down the music software bundled with Macs to be compatible only with Apple's own music player, and that's an abuse of their position, essentially eliminating competition using their position rather than by strictly by developing a superior product. It's anti-competitive, and anti-competitive behaviour is one of the reasons why Mac users jumped on the bandwagon of criticising Microsoft's unethical business practice. ;)

In comparison, companies can make their mp3 players compatible with WMP on Windows if they want. That's called choice, folks. The other fair option would be to not bundle audio software on the Mac, and have people download the music player of their choice, which is what is done in Europe with regards to internet browsers.

Personally, I hope Apple gets called on this, perhaps penalised. It wouldn't happen in N. America, but perhaps in Europe. :)

You are deluded if you believe this is in the same manner as what Microsoft is doing, anyways I don't blame you.

By the way does Microsoft allow all mp3 players to sync with the Zune store, where is the choice, I wonder why Palm isn't targeting the Zunes store.

What's wrong with the natural form of competition? Apple are right to clarify the relationship with 3rd party hardware but, if it is happening, wrong to be deliberately destructive over the use of iTunes. Apple needs to project confidence not cowardice. Making iTunes the defacto centre of media for many devices is not a bad idea.

So Palm hacking itunes, is considered competition?

Your post is a perfect example of the kind of pathetic nastiness that has become prevalent on Apple forums in recent years whenever any kind of competition is mentioned.

I hope someone breaks into your home and drives a nail through all your Apple hardware. See how childish and irrational that sounds? :rolleyes:


And the people claiming that Palm's actions are illegal should provide a link to back that up, because I doubt very much that it's true. I don't support their actions, but it's hardly encroaching on Apples IP or breaking the law to give a fake USB device ID. :rolleyes:

And your post is a perfect example of some of the deluded bitterness that we've seen from people like you ever since Apple became a company.

I also hope the next time someone hacks into your computer, you find nothing wrong with it and have a big smile on your face.

Instead of developing their own store which actually brings competition or if they don't have the resources to do that, develop a proper software to sync with Itunes like RIM did, they've turned into two time hackers, and you have the audacity to support such nonsense.

Apple fanboys at their finest.

Apple haters at their best.

[djpic]

Ok, here is an interesting move by Apple. If you think about it, iTunes is fully DRM free now, which once Apple made that announcement, I knew that either companies would try and partner with Apple or someone would try and find a way to sync thrid-party devices.

You can see it as an advantage to Apple to allow more third-party devices to use iTunes. More iTunes store revenue. But Apple as always portrayed iTunes as just a gateway drug to their products (ipod, macbooks, etc.) therefore would it be in their best interests to do such a thing?

Personally I am split on the issue. How much more store revenue would they gain vs iPod business they would lose? Do people use iTunes because of the store or because they have iPods? I see myself buying a new iPod / iPhone every two years which would be about $500. I spend well over a thousand a year on iTunes Store.

It all depends on the numbers and Apple's plan for the future. I see Apple fighting opening up iTunes to third-party but within the next few years, I could see them being forced to either by a lawsuit or pressure from the Market. That is my view on the issue.

[Test17]

WMP is bundled with the OS, but in consequence, there are non-Zune players that officially work with WMP.
I love this, the Zune CAN'T sync with WMP, other players can't sync with the "Zune Store", and the Zune can't be used with PlaysForSure music services even though Microsoft could presumably license the system... to themselves... for free. :p

I still think Apple has more to gain from other devices syncing with iTunes, especially if were getting "licencing fees" (I know it doesn't sound right) from Palm, RIM, etc, for hardware support.

I also think people should wait for Apple to do something (or say they're going to) before they start complaining about it.

[hachaboob]

This is hardly news. If Apple were actively barring non-Apple devices from syncing in iTunes now that would be different. Where is the leaked memo? :p

[HyperZboy]

Raising barriers to other devices is an anti-trust issue, is it not?

It's not just about music sellers, it's about MP3 players as well.

If Apple uses their dominant market share in music sales to protect their dominant share in MP3 players - that raises antitrust issues.

Complete Hogwash!

The Palm Pre is illegally using Apple proprietary info without permission to sync.

There are many ways to put music and content on third-party devices.

iTunes is neither a monopoly or an illegal monopoly.
There are plenty of other ways to purchase music.
Last I checked Toyota was not required to support or service Chevys!
Similarly, iTunes and Apple are not required to support Palm Pre's!

Apple has no anti-trust requirement to go out of their way to support 3rd-party devices.

There are no anti-trust issues here whatsoever.

The Apple document is best described as "CYA" (Cover Your Ass).
This means Apple is stating it's not legally responsible for supporting the Palm Pre, so they have given notice that they cannot be sued for problems related to it. Very simple.

What will happen if Apple blocks this illegal method of mimicking an iPod to iTunes?

Absolutely nothing. The 5 Palm Pre users will complain. End of story. :D

[goosnarrggh]

The Palm Pre is illegally using Apple proprietary info without permission to sync.


Careful with that point - Apple has gone out of its way so far to make sure it has not accused Palm of doing anything illegal. Such an accusation would require proof.

Admittedly, it is possible that they may have broken a law by using insider information in order to achieve interoperability with iTunes. However, we do not have proof of that, and the fact of the matter is, it is also entirely possible for them to have achieved the same position, even without Apple's permission, and yet still have done nothing illegal in the process.

If Palm can prove through its engineering records that it lived up to the definition of cleanroom reverse engineering in its iTunes synchronization, and that it did not duplicate any of Apple's own copyrighted code, or make use of algorithms covered by Apple's patents, or make use of secret information directly or indirectly disclosed to them by Apple or a current or former Apple employee in violation of an NDA, and they did not make unreasonable use of Apple's trademarks, then they will not, in fact, have done anything illegal.

[Mal]

Careful with that point - Apple has gone out of its way so far to make sure it has not accused Palm of doing anything illegal. Such an accusation would require proof.

Admittedly, it is possible that they may have broken a law by using insider information in order to achieve interoperability with iTunes. However, we do not have proof of that, and the fact of the matter is, it is also entirely possible for them to have achieved the same position, even without Apple's permission, and yet still have done nothing illegal in the process.

If Palm can prove through its engineering records that it lived up to the definition of cleanroom reverse engineering in its iTunes synchronization, and that it did not duplicate any of Apple's own copyrighted code, or make use of algorithms covered by Apple's patents, or make use of secret information directly or indirectly disclosed to them by Apple or a current or former Apple employee in violation of an NDA, and they did not make unreasonable use of Apple's trademarks, then they will not, in fact, have done anything illegal.

The one thing that is fairly certain (perhaps not proven by the strict definition of the word, but I think has been shown clearly) is that Palm is using Apple's vendor ID's in the USB handshake process with iTunes. While perhaps not illegal (someone with more knowledge could possibly shed light on that point), it is against the rules of the USB Consortium, and could definitely get Palm in trouble there if they decide to take action.

jW

[peterdevries]

Raising barriers to other devices is an anti-trust issue, is it not?

It's not just about music sellers, it's about MP3 players as well.

If Apple uses their dominant market share in music sales to protect their dominant share in MP3 players - that raises antitrust issues.

No, there are enough alternatives if Apple raises barriers to the iTunes store.

Just compare this to the fact that your printer comes with dedicated software to show ink status etc. This software doesn't work with printers from other manufacturers.

It's the same here. You have a Palm printer posing as an Apple printer trying to use the ink management software. As soon as Apple starts changing the management software, the Palm printer will have a problem.

[Rich1963]

There's an even simpler explanation for all of this, and after 6 pages, I cannot believe no one has thought of it yet. Has it occured to anyone yet that Apple is already receiving a large amount of calls from Pre owners asking for support and troubleshooting assistance with the Pre/iTunes sync, and Apple is simply notifying everyone to "stop calling us and call the handset manufacturer, as we didn't build, nor license the damn thing". Just my $.02.

[AidenShaw]

iTunes is neither a monopoly or an illegal monopoly.
...
There are no anti-trust issues here whatsoever.

And you are a judge in which court?

What is an "illegal monopoly" anyway?


There are plenty of other ways to purchase music.

And, there were many other operating systems, and many other browsers available when Microsoft was taken to court.

That defense didn't hold then, and it won't hold now.

[*LTD*]

And you are a judge in which court?

What is an "illegal monopoly" anyway?




And, there were many other operating systems, and many other browsers available when Microsoft was taken to court.

That defense didn't hold then, and it won't hold now.

There have already been legal rulings with respect to this (iTunes/iPod monopoly) issue in the US, prior to 2006, and in 2007 at which time the EU was involved, but the latter was about pricing.

With respect to the question of Apple and its locking of OS X to its own hardware, there were rulings about this in the past, and most recently, by Judge Alsup in the Psystar case in 2008.

What he meant by "illegal monopoloy" (not the best term) is a monopoly in which the entity abuses their position.

[johnqh]

Palm is going to look at the code in each new release and just keep changing WebOS's code so that it will still work with iTunes. Then they'll distribute it as an update.

Actually, there is a very easy way for Apple to make it hell for Palm.

Simply, the iTunes and iPod can have a very complicated protocol for establish communication, but do not activate it at the beginning. For example, let's say there are 100 commands which iPod has to respond for iTunes to sync.

Right now, iTunes only uses 1 command, which Pre emulations.

Someday in the future, iTunes will use used either command 1 or 2, which Palm engineers have to reverse engineer and then update the firmware.

Then, another week later, iTunes randomly picks from command 1, 2 or 3, and Palm has to update again.

The beauty of that technique is, Apple doesn't have to even update iTunes and iPod firmware (assuming all the protocols are already working, just not activated). iTunes can gradually activate new commands based on date.

[bartzilla]

Seriously though, what's with all the hate on these forums? I'm a huge Apple fan as well but wishing Palm to "die" is quite irrational. Boo on competition...?

Because some Apple fans are too busy trying to think the same different as everyone else they've not allowed their emotional responses and general maturity to progress beyond that of an especially obnoxious 12 year old?

[awulf]

Instead of developing their own store which actually brings competition or if they don't have the resources to do that, develop a proper software to sync with Itunes like RIM did, they've turned into two time hackers, and you have the audacity to support such nonsense.


What Palm did seems to be a good solution. They COULD create a "hack" on the computer's side to extract info/sync from iTunes (like RIM did), but why not make it simpler? and develop the syncing software on the phone's side? It makes it that much more simple for the end user. Either way is doing something without Apple's blessing.

iTunes can sync with some old MP3 players from when it was SoundJam.


No, there are enough alternatives if Apple raises barriers to the iTunes store.

Just compare this to the fact that your printer comes with dedicated software to show ink status etc. This software doesn't work with printers from other manufacturers.

It's the same here. You have a Palm printer posing as an Apple printer trying to use the ink management software. As soon as Apple starts changing the management software, the Palm printer will have a problem.


Printers are slightly different, the printer driver does all the work for the specific hardware, and the custom utility application has tools for that specific printer. There is absolutely no point for HP to reverse engineer their printers to pretend to be Canon printers, that requires a lot of effort and will limit the functionality of the HP printer.

Actually most printers with network connectivity have all their utilities displayed in a web interface, is it bad for them to use Safari to show the ink level?

The iTunes -> Pre thing is a totally different scenario, you have all your music all nicely set up on iTunes, rated and organised.
iTunes is great for organising music, it also came with support to sync with a few MP3 devices for people who want their music on the go. Now a user with an iTunes library just bought a Palm Pre, what's the easiest way for them to stick their music on their Pre? By having direct syncing capability! Its brilliant!

This isn't a feature that will decrease sales from iPhones and increase them on the Pre, because there are alternative ways to sync with 3rd party computer programs (or should I say hacking programs).


Now i don't care how the Pre will sync with iTunes (or if it doesn't) because I'm not going to buy one. I think its a great phone, but its not for me. I am considering buying an iPhone, but still on the fence whether or not as my SE P1i still adequately serves its purpose.

I'm on the palm defending side of this discussion because I see nothing done wrong here. The only thing that can go wrong, is that Apple releases a software update which breaks the syncing software, but that has happened to any program that has interacted with iTunes, weather it be a 3rd party syncing software or a sound enhancer like SRS iWOW.

Here's another similar situation, was/is it illegal for Sonnet and PowerMax to make CPU upgrade cards for Apple Macs? Like they "hack" the ZIF sockets for a G4, and prevent the user from buying a new Mac because they can prolong the life of their current Mac.

[HyperZboy]

There's an even simpler explanation for all of this, and after 6 pages, I cannot believe no one has thought of it yet. Has it occured to anyone yet that Apple is already receiving a large amount of calls from Pre owners asking for support and troubleshooting assistance with the Pre/iTunes sync, and Apple is simply notifying everyone to "stop calling us and call the handset manufacturer, as we didn't build, nor license the damn thing". Just my $.02.

I think you just hit the nail on the head.
Sorta like I said, CYA (Cover Your Ass legally) + Please don't bother us with your problems Palm Pre owners. Thank You, Apple, Inc. :)


And you are a judge in which court?

What is an "illegal monopoly" anyway?




And, there were many other operating systems, and many other browsers available when Microsoft was taken to court.

That defense didn't hold then, and it won't hold now.

Apple has as competition to iTUNES... Amazon, Microsoft, Rhapsody (which btw claims to be the #1 Rated Music Download service, whatever the hell that means, hehe, it made me laugh reading it on the website though.)

Apple does NOT have the market share that Microsoft was taken to court for in either music sales or computer sales, so the whole monopoly thing at this point is a non-issue, illegal or otherwise. A monopoly, btw, is not by definition, illegal. Only Microsoft and the original US oil company, and the Bell System have ever been declared as illegal monopolies, so there's your answer to that question. It's a rare event.

And almost nothing but a slap on the wrist happened to even Microsoft with a 90%+ illegal monopoly conviction!

So what bad exactly do you think is going to happen to Apple from the Palm Pre non-story ???

Please, the answer is NOTHING!

Even if Apple blocks the device TOMORROW there will only be a whimper from 5 people! LOL

[kdarling]

Complete Hogwash!

The Palm Pre is illegally using Apple proprietary info without permission to sync.


Okay, I'm curious.

What law do you claim that Palm is breaking?

Thanks!

[phelix_da_kat]

Wonder who this is directed towards. :p

Everyone is blowing this out of proportion!

I would say with all the hype and the "selling point" that the Pre can sync with iTunes.. Apple had to make it clear that it would not be their problem if it stopped working in the future. With the fact that there are likely more iTunes updates a year than new Palm phone, there is always a chance it may not sync (initially) in the future.

It is NOT an intention - just a heads up, not to call them if it stops working - call Palm!

So, in the end, Palm will just issue patches... if it wants to keep its userbase.

Everyone jailbreaks iPhones, why not Pres/iTunes.

[Brycew]

If your buying the Pre because of it's Itunes capability, your gonna get screwed. If your buying the Pre because you like it, and the Itunes feature is just something nice, don't get to excited, unless you never want to upgrades Itunes. I love the little "Future updates might "Break" the ability to sync with the pre" in other words, it won't last for long.

[steviem]

Yet Apple uses threaded SMS - something first thought of by, oh yeah, Palm.

What would be nice is for Apple to let Palm use these reverse engineered techniques for syncing with iTunes in return for.... iPhone Synergy, the main featre on the Pre that I want on the iPhone, to have all types of conversation with contacts in one application on the iPhone.

Come on Apple, pleeease?

[SG1-1]

If your buying the Pre because of it's Itunes capability, your gonna get screwed. If your buying the Pre because you like it, and the Itunes feature is just something nice, don't get to excited, unless you never want to upgrades Itunes. I love the little "Future updates might "Break" the ability to sync with the pre" in other words, it won't last for long.

Please People, The Pre was Not Mentioned Buy Name, Please Re read the posting again, it seems folks what this to be something that is singling out only One (1) Manufacture, it is not, nor does it mention any (Electronic Device Manufacturer By proper Name)

"Apple is aware that some third-parties claim that their digital media players are able to sync with Apple software. However, Apple does not provide support for, or test for compatibility with, non-Apple digital media players and, because software changes over time, newer versions of Apple's iTunes software may no longer provide syncing functionality with non-Apple digital media players".

I do agree with this Statement, if you Like the Palm for it's features buy it, But counting on another feature that is not controlled or Coded and made by another company is just plain Gambling with disappointments sure to come.

[Goona]

Yet Apple uses threaded SMS - something first thought of by, oh yeah, Palm.

What would be nice is for Apple to let Palm use these reverse engineered techniques for syncing with iTunes in return for.... iPhone Synergy, the main featre on the Pre that I want on the iPhone, to have all types of conversation with contacts in one application on the iPhone.

Come on Apple, pleeease?

So go tell Palm to sue Apple instead of turning into hackers.

[citi]

If your buying the Pre because of it's Itunes capability, your gonna get screwed. If your buying the Pre because you like it, and the Itunes feature is just something nice, don't get to excited, unless you never want to upgrades Itunes. I love the little "Future updates might "Break" the ability to sync with the pre" in other words, it won't last for long.

true, and Apple warned against future updates breaking Jailbroken Apple devices. The hackers found a way around that. It's just a support warning. Nothing more.

[cg0def]

First of all Apple has absolutely no use for other devices their own network and will not earn more money if they allow them. In fact it will likely destroy the reputation of the service since there would be a ton of unsupported half-arse working devices and people will start blaming Apple for the poor service. So it is in Apple's best interest to prevent unsupported devices from ever using their software and services.

2nd eventually the only way for a 3rd party device to connect would be to break Apple's EULA and at that point Palm is really *********. And considering how easy it is for Apple to do that I would be surprised if the Palm freeloading last more than 6 months. Well see how it all plays out but to one I am really glad that Apple takes steps to defend their IP. The sad part is that a high ranking ex Apple employee should have know that this won't last but I guess Palm is really in for some quick cash.

[globalhemp]

Once more, if you sync via iTune's XML Library, then you should have nothing to worry about by means of it not working.

If Palm was "open source" minded in building the Pre to sync with iTunes, I would have to assume that they have not developed a proprietary method for synching, rather have stuck with importing XML Library and "adopted" it as a standard. Apple would have to change their own XML standard or encrypt it, then change encryption with each update to lock-out people who hack it.

[awulf]

First of all Apple has absolutely no use for other devices their own network and will not earn more money if they allow them. In fact it will likely destroy the reputation of the service since there would be a ton of unsupported half-arse working devices and people will start blaming Apple for the poor service. So it is in Apple's best interest to prevent unsupported devices from ever using their software and services.

2nd eventually the only way for a 3rd party device to connect would be to break Apple's EULA and at that point Palm is really *********. And considering how easy it is for Apple to do that I would be surprised if the Palm freeloading last more than 6 months. Well see how it all plays out but to one I am really glad that Apple takes steps to defend their IP. The sad part is that a high ranking ex Apple employee should have know that this won't last but I guess Palm is really in for some quick cash.

1) An EULA is questionable if it can be held up in court
2) Can't find anything in here http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/itunes.pdf that says no third party software or hardware is allowed to interact with iTunes.

If Apple does do something that stops the Pre syncing with iTunes directly, can always use other "hacking" techniques like DoubleTwist, MissingSync, make an AppleScript, or manually copy songs across.

[MagnusVonMagnum]

If Palm wants an iTunes type store, then build it. Instead they are acting lazy and hacks into iTunes. The sooner Apple cuts them off the better.

So you're saying Apple should push customers away from its music and movie store? That's what you're saying, after all. I don't see how that benefits Apple unless the entire iTunes store is just a front to push hardware. They do want to sell music, don't they?

No it isn't. Microsoft had a monopoly with the Windows and IE combo AND there were few alternatives. Apple isn't anywhere near a monopoly with iTunes AND there are lots of alternatives.

That seems to be the Apple excuse for EVERYTHING. We aren't Microsoft so the rules don't apply to us for ANYTHING. We can do anything we want. We have 30 billion in cash reserves but we're a TINY insignificant company so don't complain when we try and avoid all competition and control all markets. We don't have to compete because Microsoft holds 90% of the OS market. Never mind we control huge portions of the smart phone market, online music market and have zero hardware competition for the OS X operating system which allows us to rake in HUGE amounts of money (along the lines of $30 billion which could bail out all three auto companies in the U.S.). No, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. We're the all powerful Jobz!

[Sehnsucht]

That seems to be the Apple excuse for EVERYTHING. We aren't Microsoft so the rules don't apply to us for ANYTHING. We can do anything we want. We have 30 billion in cash reserves but we're a TINY insignificant company so don't complain when we try and avoid all competition and control all markets. We don't have to compete because Microsoft holds 90% of the OS market. Never mind we control huge portions of the smart phone market, online music market and have zero hardware competition for the OS X operating system which allows us to rake in HUGE amounts of money (along the lines of $30 billion which could bail out all three auto companies in the U.S.). No, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. We're the all powerful Jobz!

I don't think that's what he said/meant.

If you've got such a deeply-held resentment of the way Apple does things, why don't you start a Cindy Sheehan-style protest group? Actually going out and rallying the people would probably be more effective than writing wall after endless wall of grumblings on an Internet forum.

Just my $0.02. You better come get it quick before I send it as an offering to Steve Jo....er....I mean God. ;)

[mc3s]

Since becoming DRM free I don't see how anyone with any device can't still use iTunes. The "sync with ipod/iphone" feature is a bonus for people who also buy Apple hardware. If Pre wants to take advantage of that feature then its up to them to make it work. Again, why would Apple make their brand specific feature work with all other third party devices?

If you own a Zune you can still use iTunes to purchase music until you are blue in the face and then put that music on your Zune. Will it sync? No, thats a feature for iPods and iPhones. Considering the amount of time and money it would take to make sure each update was compatible with devices across the spectrum I think we can all agree its best for whoever makes the hardware to make sure that it works with the software. What benefit would Apple gain from spending money on making sure a competitor's device worked just like an iPhone with iTunes?

Apple makes iTunes and the iPhone and only guarantees that the products they make will work with each other (with all features). This notice is just letting everyone know who's responsible for the Pre and other devices that aren't made by Apple. I doubt Microsoft spends time and money making sure all hardware devices work with the Zune store exactly like the Zune does.

You don't need to give Apple a penny to use iTunes. If you want a guarantee to have all the features of an iPhone + iTunes don't whine if Apple doesn't go out of their way to make sure you get the same experience with a Pre.

Regarding all this monopoly talk: It doesn't matter if they have a monopoly with iTunes. That in and of itself isn't illegal. Using that monopoly to leverage themselves up in other markets would be illegal. For example if the content bought on iTunes only worked with iPods. That's not the case here, though. We're not talking about not being able to get that purchased content onto another device such as a Pre. No one is stopping you from doing that. But if you want to do that by way of syncing a Pre to iTunes then its up to Palm to make that happen.

[ibosie]

How is there anything anti-competitive about it? Is there not other software alternatives out there? Shouldn't said software makers be trying to compete with iTunes? Palm did a reasonable job in creating a competitive piece of hardware, can't they do the same with software?

Is that what people want though, multiple access points to purchase digital media? I think it would benefit iTunes to compete on the hardware connecting to it than the software alone, if nothing else Apple's bargaining power with the film, tv and music industry would be that much greater with a user base spread across more businesses than computers alone.

[chukronos]

I have no beef with Apple doing this. They are just making sure that they don't look bad when alternative hardware fails at iTunes. Besides, Apple did all the work and marketing to make iTunes the powerhouse that it is. I don't think other people should be able to cash in on that without paying Apple for their effort. My .02

[kdarling]

Doesn't look like anyone's posted this yet...


Palm responds to Apple's warning (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10266423-1.html):

"Palm's media sync works with the current version of iTunes. If Apple chooses to disable media sync in a future version of iTunes, it will be a direct blow to their users who will be deprived of a seamless synchronization experience.

"However, people will have options. They can stay with the iTunes version that works to sync their music on their Pre, they can transfer the music via USB, and there are other third-party applications we could consider. "

.

[peterdevries]

That seems to be the Apple excuse for EVERYTHING. We aren't Microsoft so the rules don't apply to us for ANYTHING.

It's not what Apple says. It's what the internationally agreed definitions about monopolies say. The overseeing organizations test situations according to these definitions. These definitions are readily available on the internet (and no, I'm not going to look them up for you).


We can do anything we want. We have 30 billion in cash reserves but we're a TINY insignificant company so don't complain when we try and avoid all competition and control all markets.

It's not about money in the bank. It's about the market size a company controls.


We don't have to compete because Microsoft holds 90% of the OS market.

So is Apple competing or not? Last time I looked they are taking market share away from MS..

Never mind we control huge portions of the smart phone market, online music market and have zero hardware competition for the OS X operating system which allows us to rake in HUGE amounts of money (along the lines of $30 billion which could bail out all three auto companies in the U.S.).No, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. We're the all powerful Jobz!

Your reasoning is so incredibly flawed, I'm almost starting to feel sorry for you.

[peterdevries]

What is an "illegal monopoly" anyway?

Legal monopolies exist, like in the case of providers of utilities (electricity and such). The media-player and windows combo was judged to be a monopoly for Microsoft. That was an illegal monopoly.




And, there were many other operating systems, and many other browsers available when Microsoft was taken to court.

That defense didn't hold then, and it won't hold now.

That's not necessarily true. Microsoft was able to abuse the situation because they owned a massive amount of the market. Whether there were alternatives or not, was at that point not relevant. MS has already been convicted and was/is therefore guilty. In Europe they have been fined billions of dollars for abusing their market position.

[AidenShaw]

Legal monopolies exist, like in the case of providers of utilities (electricity and such). The media-player and windows combo was judged to be a monopoly for Microsoft. That was an illegal monopoly.

I disagree, as have others. It was judged to be illegal abuse of monopoly power. The monopoly itself is not illegal.


That's not necessarily true. Microsoft was able to abuse the situation because they owned a massive amount of the market. Whether there were alternatives or not, was at that point not relevant. MS has already been convicted and was/is therefore guilty. In Europe they have been fined billions of dollars for abusing their market position.

And Apple doesn't hold a massive amount of the market?

The monopoly law doesn't automatically apply once you get more than 89.238576% (or some other arbitrary percentage) of the market.

It's a fluid call - if a company's business share is large enough to distort the "free market" system, then it can be declared a monopoly.

The government has already seriously threatened Google with anti-trust proceedings, and Google's share of the search market is less than Apple's online music share.

[Sehnsucht]

I just sent an email to Microsoft complaining that their Zune desktop software can't sync with my iPod.

WHY, MS? WHYYYYYY????!!!!! :eek:

[peterdevries]

I disagree, as have others. It was judged to be illegal abuse of monopoly power. The monopoly itself is not illegal.

Ah! we're disagreeing on semantics. I agree that the monopoly itself was not illegal, just the abuse of it's position by MS. Legal monopolies exist though.



And Apple doesn't hold a massive amount of the market?

The monopoly law doesn't automatically apply once you get more than 89.238576% (or some other arbitrary percentage) of the market.

It's a fluid call - if a company's business share is large enough to distort the "free market" system, then it can be declared a monopoly.

The government has already seriously threatened Google with anti-trust proceedings, and Google's share of the search market is less than Apple's online music share.

I agree again. My point is (sorry if I wasn't clear enough) that once the market share grows so large that alternatives are not a viable choice anymore AND the company starts abusing this position, THEN that company is in trouble. As yet, the competition for iTunes and iPod/iPhone is only growing. We do not yet know exactly what the Touch HD will do with Zune. In addition many phone manufacturers are starting upgrading their bottom line phones to smartphones (Samsung, LG, Nokia). All these phones come with MP3 player abilities, bespoke apps etc. IMHO a lot still has to happen before Apple reaches a point where they are in a position to abuse their market position and anyone to care (I mean regulators, not the fanboys here..;))

[MagnusVonMagnum]

It's not what Apple says. It's what the internationally agreed definitions about monopolies say.

I couldn't care less about your definition of a monopoly as it's not relevant. Given Microsoft doesn't control 100% of the OS market, it's not a monopoly either. It's completely beside the point. Anti-trust laws do not require a monopoly. They require companies to not actively try to prevent competition. But that's what Apple is best at. The fact Apple has conflicting interests between running a music store, an operating system and selling 100% of the hardware for that operating system means nothing to you and neither does Capitalism and competition. Maybe you would prefer to live in China if you do not like competition. I think you'll like their hypocritical "Buy China" program while our country calls that protectionism. Maybe we are the hypocrites for not standing by our own country and our own products.


The overseeing organizations test situations according to these definitions. These definitions are readily available on the internet (and no, I'm not going to look them up for you).


Why bother. They're meaningless, just like your posts.


It's not about money in the bank. It's about the market size a company controls.


And how much of the online music market does Apple control? How much of the smart phone market does it control? Why do Apple fanatics always think that their tiny OS share has a freaking thing to do with their hardware, phone and music sales? Why do fanatics always try write Apple off as insignificant when they have more hard petty cash than most of the tech companies on the planet and could have bailed out the entire auto industry by themselves? Why do they pretend anti-trust laws don't apply to a company of their gigantic stature because their OS share is small? Why do fanatics like yourself always defend Apple no matter how dirty their hands are?


So is Apple competing or not? Last time I looked they are taking market share away from MS..


What does their OS share have to do with this thread anyway? NOTHING. This thread is about the iTunes store and the Palm Pre. Their market shares are MUCH higher there. Their integration of several different market places (media, smart phones, software, operating systems and various computer hardware) makes them a trust player. They use one market as leverage to try and force sales in another market. Again, this is a trust. Anti-trust rules were written precisely to prevent companies like Apple from abusing their strong positions in various markets.



Your reasoning is so incredibly flawed, I'm almost starting to feel sorry for you.

Don't bother feeling sorry for me. I'm not the one that needs sympathy.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Sherman+Anti-Trust+Act

Try reading this web page and take a close look at the section on "tying". It fits Apple to a T. It's exactly how they manipulate one market against another by participating in multiple markets and then tying one of their products to another of their products in a different market (e.g. tying the iPod/iPhone market to the iTunes store and the iTunes App store and not allowing any other competition by refusing to allow other stores to sell software for that product without giving 30% to Apple and using THEIR storefront and no other store. This both prevents store competition for the iPhone/iPod Touch and prevents others from using their software (i.e. 3rd parties syncing to their software). Apple ties the OS X operating system to their hardware and actively try to stop others from installing that software on competing hardware. In effect, they are preventing active commerce by attempting to prevent sales of competing hardware by trying to force you to use THEIR hardware if you purchase OS X. Apple's anti-trust behavior is SO BLATANT only a blind fanatic could NOT see it. The typical response is that they are not a monopoly. But as the article indicates, they DO NOT HAVE TO BE. They only have to try and actively restrain commerce and competition and have the clout to do so. There can be no denying their clout in the online music and smart phone sales, even if you don't accept the Mac hardware market as significant.

The sad thing is the only thing Apple has to do to be compliant with the law is STOP trying to prevent competitors from selling products and services for their products that are in differing markets. In other words, their iPhone has competition in the phone market, but tying it to media/software market and preventing others from participating in selling software/apps for that phone is a violation. Similarly, trying to tell people in a license that they MUST purchase Apple brand hardware to use Apple software is a violation. It is called TYING and it is ILLEGAL. And if you cannot see how NOT having competition for Apple hardware or iPhone Apps that garner 30% of ALL developer sales is a MAJOR MAJOR benefit to Apple's bottom line and contributes to their market standing as one of the richest companies out there in sheer cold hard cash then I have some swamp land I can sell you in Florida.

[peterdevries]

I couldn't care less about your definition of a monopoly as it's not relevant. Given Microsoft doesn't control 100% of the OS market, it's not a monopoly either. It's completely beside the point. Anti-trust laws do not require a monopoly. They require companies to not actively try to prevent competition. But that's what Apple is best at. The fact Apple has conflicting interests between running a music store, an operating system and selling 100% of the hardware for that operating system means nothing to you and neither does Capitalism and competition. Maybe you would prefer to live in China if you do not like competition. I think you'll like their hypocritical "Buy China" program while our country calls that protectionism. Maybe we are the hypocrites for not standing by our own country and our own products.

I would like to apologize for my previous arrogance. It was uncalled for.

As Aiden Shaw stated before, it's not only a 100% market share that defines a monopoly. It is also how a company uses that market share and whether there are alternatives to the service or product.

In the case of iTunes and Ipod/iPhone it's definitely true that Apple controls 100% of the players for that service and also controls a large portion of the online music market, which flows through iTunes.

However, Apple does not have 100% market share (as you are stating correctly) and there ARE alternatives. For the players you can choose from the Zune, Zune HD, several cellphones, sony players and hundreds of low cost mp3 players. The list goes on and on. The same freedom of choise is present with MP3 download services: amazon.com, legalsounds.com, freerecordshop.nl, emusic.com. Also here the list goes on and on.

The moment a company has a product or service in a monopoly status, is when the customers do not have anywhere else to go for that service. At that point that company can do whatever it wants: deliver an inferior product, stop innovating and raise prices. I do not deny that Apple hasn't done any of these things to some extent (recent price changes in the iTunes store). But you HAVE alternatives if you decide that your iPod isn't fulfilling your needs anymore. I'm sure there are many people that own iPod Touches now that will look at the Zune HD and seriously contemplate switching.

The reason Apple gets away most of the time with less innovation (than we would like) or higher prices is because Apple has a very loyal customer base and we would buy their new gadgets anyway.

Again, sorry for my previous arrogance. I had a bad day. :o

Edit: I just read your link (dry stuff, will have to look up some pr0n later to compensate..:D). The important paragraph in this piece is this:

In focusing on market shares, courts will include not only products that are exactly the same but also those that may be substituted for the company's product based on price, quality, and adaptability for other purposes. For example, an oat-based, round-shaped breakfast cereal may be considered a substitutable product for a rice-based, square-shaped breakfast cereal, or possibly even a granola breakfast bar.

Apples iPod/iPhone and iTunes combination (oat-based, round-shaped breakfast cereal) has numerous substitutable products that can be considered such as the aforementioned MP3 players from Sony, Samsung, Microsoft and all that Hello Kitty chinese and japanese MP3 player cheapo crap (rice-based, square-shaped breakfast cereal).

Edit number two: on the tying paragraph.... I do not know whether they are already under scrutiny for this, but I'm also not sure whether this paragraph completely applies. After all, as an owner of iPod, your are not forced to download music through iTunes. You can download music anywhere and import this into iTunes and transfer those songs to your iPod. I'm assuming that the fact that you have to load your iPod through iTunes (which is free) is no object as it is readily available for Windows and OS X.

The same applies to the restriction of OS X to Apple Hardware. You are free to install whatever OS you would like on a piece of Apple hardware, so that shouldn't be a problem. The other way round is not possible/allowed (installing OS X on other hardware), but there are alternatives (Linux, Unix, Windows). So what is the general problem here? People want to use OS X on hardware that is not supported by Apple. Why doesn't Apple do this?

1. The official reason would be that they cannot provide full support for their OS on other hardware (just look at the problems MS has making windows compatible to every piece of hardware on the planet).
2. The inofficial reason is of course that Apple wants to sell hardware.

I'm sure Apple values both of these reasons probably equally high (one increases efficiency, while the orther increases profitability).

Just to differentiate this a bit consider the following: suppose you like the Zune OS, but hate the Zune as a piece of hardware. Should Microsoft enable the Zune OS also for other hardware such as the iPod? Alternatively: should Garmin navigation software run on TomTom hardware? Should Metroid for Nintendo WII be converted/coded or whatever, to play also on XBOX?

[Sehnsucht]

I couldn't care less about your definition of a monopoly as it's not relevant. Given Microsoft doesn't control 100% of the OS market, it's not a monopoly either. It's completely beside the point. Anti-trust laws do not require a monopoly. They require companies to not actively try to prevent competition. But that's what Apple is best at. The fact Apple has conflicting interests between running a music store, an operating system and selling 100% of the hardware for that operating system means nothing to you and neither does Capitalism and competition. Maybe you would prefer to live in China if you do not like competition. I think you'll like their hypocritical "Buy China" program while our country calls that protectionism. Maybe we are the hypocrites for not standing by our own country and our own products.

Why bother. They're meaningless, just like your posts.

And how much of the online music market does Apple control? How much of the smart phone market does it control? Why do Apple fanatics always think that their tiny OS share has a freaking thing to do with their hardware, phone and music sales? Why do fanatics always try write Apple off as insignificant when they have more hard petty cash than most of the tech companies on the planet and could have bailed out the entire auto industry by themselves? Why do they pretend anti-trust laws don't apply to a company of their gigantic stature because their OS share is small? Why do fanatics like yourself always defend Apple no matter how dirty their hands are?

What does their OS share have to do with this thread anyway? NOTHING. This thread is about the iTunes store and the Palm Pre. Their market shares are MUCH higher there. Their integration of several different market places (media, smart phones, software, operating systems and various computer hardware) makes them a trust player. They use one market as leverage to try and force sales in another market. Again, this is a trust. Anti-trust rules were written precisely to prevent companies like Apple from abusing their strong positions in various markets.

Don't bother feeling sorry for me. I'm not the one that needs sympathy.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Sherman+Anti-Trust+Act

Try reading this web page and take a close look at the section on "tying". It fits Apple to a T. It's exactly how they manipulate one market against another by participating in multiple markets and then tying one of their products to another of their products in a different market (e.g. tying the iPod/iPhone market to the iTunes store and the iTunes App store and not allowing any other competition by refusing to allow other stores to sell software for that product without giving 30% to Apple and using THEIR storefront and no other store. This both prevents store competition for the iPhone/iPod Touch and prevents others from using their software (i.e. 3rd parties syncing to their software). Apple ties the OS X operating system to their hardware and actively try to stop others from installing that software on competing hardware. In effect, they are preventing active commerce by attempting to prevent sales of competing hardware by trying to force you to use THEIR hardware if you purchase OS X. Apple's anti-trust behavior is SO BLATANT only a blind fanatic could NOT see it. The typical response is that they are not a monopoly. But as the article indicates, they DO NOT HAVE TO BE. They only have to try and actively restrain commerce and competition and have the clout to do so. There can be no denying their clout in the online music and smart phone sales, even if you don't accept the Mac hardware market as significant.

The sad thing is the only thing Apple has to do to be compliant with the law is STOP trying to prevent competitors from selling products and services for their products that are in differing markets. In other words, their iPhone has competition in the phone market, but tying it to media/software market and preventing others from participating in selling software/apps for that phone is a violation. Similarly, trying to tell people in a license that they MUST purchase Apple brand hardware to use Apple software is a violation. It is called TYING and it is ILLEGAL. And if you cannot see how NOT having competition for Apple hardware or iPhone Apps that garner 30% of ALL developer sales is a MAJOR MAJOR benefit to Apple's bottom line and contributes to their market standing as one of the richest companies out there in sheer cold hard cash then I have some swamp land I can sell you in Florida.

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr214/TheDavidFrom1988/eusa_boohoo.gif http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr214/TheDavidFrom1988/blahblah.gif

What a ridiculous bunch of condescending, arrogant drivel. Sorry to rain on your little nationalistic, self-righteous parade there, but you seriously don't expect me to believe that Apple is really under any kind of legal obligation to allow other devices to sync with iTunes? Seriously? Apple doesn't *have* to allow that! I don't even see what the big whoop-de-doo over syncing is all about, anyway. Music sold through iTunes can play on the Pre, and every other smartphone out there with the capability to play the AAC format. Therefore, if Apple does update iTunes and blocks the Pre, its users are still able to move their music/contacts/whatever, except they'll have to drag-and-drop manually to the Pre while in USB mass storage mode. I have never heard of anyone actively campaigning for the Zune desktop software to allow syncing with the iPod. Hell, I've never heard of anyone campaigning for McDonalds to sell Whoppers or Pizza Hut to sell $5 Footlongs, either. And you know what, Mr. Von Magnum? Microsoft sells the Zune, and the Zune desktop software, which is only available on THEIR OWN PLATFORM, *WINDOWS*. There is no Mac OS X version of Zune Desktop. Or Linux, or Solaris, or AIX, or IRIX... OH MY GOD! Let's go on over to the Zune forums and start a s**tstorm! Let's scream "evil monopoly" a thousand times to make ourselves look well-versed in economics and trade!! :rolleyes:

Don't even get me started on that FUD about Apple's vertical integration being a monopoly.

[Eidorian]

I think we complain enough about the lack of Zune software for OS X here. It's a tougher nut to crack than the iPod but people have been trying. There are plenty of third-party iPod managers as well. Your mileage may vary with them though and if you're already using them to begin with.

[peterdevries]

I think we complain enough about the lack of Zune software for OS X here. It's a tougher nut to crack than the iPod but people have been trying. There are plenty of third-party iPod managers as well. Your mileage may vary with them though and if you're already using them to begin with.

Now you have changed your avatar again! What is the world coming to? :D

[Eidorian]

Now you have changed your avatar again! What is the world coming to? :DI have plenty of them.

[MagnusVonMagnum]

[IMG]Sorry to rain on your little nationalistic, self-righteous parade there, but you seriously don't expect me to believe that Apple is really under any kind of legal obligation to allow other devices to sync with iTunes?

Apple isn't under any obligation to do anything. Quite the opposite, their legal obligation begins and ends with NOT doing something. That is to say, that while they don't have to support Palm, they are not legally allowed to actively PREVENT Palm from syncing with their software, so long as Palm is not violating any other laws in doing so. Anti-trust is all about NOT PREVENTING competition. It's not about "supporting" your competitor. If a company wants to sync a Zune or sync their device with Zune software and is able to do so, Microsoft would be under the same rules. Giving another bad example of a misbehaving company does not validate the first one. Two wrongs do not make a right. By doing things like telling consumers they MUST buy hardware (different market) to install software, they are TYING. There is no ambiguity here. Tying is DEFINED as using one market to ensure sales in another market. Markets must compete on their own merits. You're not even allowed to force someone to buy a box of cereal to enter a contest for goodness sake (an alternative MUST be provided). What makes companies like Apple think they can use a strong standing in one market to shore up sales in another market or vice versa? Even though OS X is a relatively small market compared to Windows, it's still a SIGNIFICANT market. There are no claims of anti-competition against OS X, for example. They are against TYING OS X to Apple brand hardware. There is no technical reason that it would be needed or required. This is where Apple's legal arguments fall apart and I only wish a company with enough money to fight Apple could get this to court. There is nothing wrong with vertical integration so long as you do not actively oppose competition within any of those integrated markets. Put simply, Apple should COMPETE with its products, not litigate its way into cornering a market or part of a market. Why certain people cannot see this is good for Capitalism and good for all consumers is beyond me. Perhaps you only care about your Apple stock or simply have a fan love for Apple that you think they shouldn't have to follow the laws. Some of us don't see things that way.

[Sehnsucht]

Hey, next I bet MVM is going to dismiss me as a biased Apple shareholder, or maybe just a "fanboy."

Wait for it.......waaaait for it......

Why certain people cannot see this is good for Capitalism and good for all consumers is beyond me. Perhaps you only care about your Apple stock or simply have a fan love for Apple that you think they shouldn't have to follow the laws. Some of us don't see things that way.

AND HE DOES!!

LOL @ the "good for capitalism" part. Did you not catch the results of our most recent election? Capitalism is on the way out anyway...;)

[AidenShaw]

Hey, next I bet MVM is going to dismiss me as a biased Apple shareholder, or maybe just a "fanboy."

Wait for it.......waaaait for it......



AND HE DOES!!

LOL @ the "good for capitalism" part. Did you not catch the results of our most recent election? Capitalism is on the way out anyway...;)

Stay away from the ad hominem attacks - it doesn't look good for you, and the moderators might decide to delete your posts or even ban you.

[Sehnsucht]

Stay away from the ad hominem attacks - it doesn't look good for you, and the moderators might decide to delete your posts or even ban you.

Well, we certainly wouldn't want that, now would we? :D

You should see me when I'm in a bad mood... :p

I'd venture to say that all necessary statements have been made: I don't care if the Pre syncs with iTunes, or if the Pre is suddenly and mysteriously unable to sync with iTunes. And I am not an Apple fanboy. ;)



[/http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr214/TheDavidFrom1988/SuperStock_1614R-9370.jpg]

[AHughes]

July 7th:
iTunes 8.2.3
-Opens iTunes to sync with Palm Pre-
-Plugs in USB-
-Palm Pre crashes-
Palm Pre crash screen says:
"Erasing Data and Firmware Files"
iTunes says:
"That's for buying a Palm Pre. Next time, buy an iPhone. -iPhone 3GS shows up on screen.-"

With the added message of...well we did warn you :rolleyes::apple: