Forget about the draft, here comes the IRR

[Ugg]

Link (http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_irs_051804,00.html)

Unknown to most Americans, though, is the existence of the Individual Ready Reserve, which has more than 280,000 members.

The IRR is a distinctly different animal than the drilling reserves or National Guard.

Those in the IRR are people who have completed their active-duty tours but are subject to involuntary recall for a certain number of years. For example, a soldier who serves four years on active duty remains in the IRR for another four years.

During that time, however, they receive no pay, do not drill with a unit and are otherwise completely civilian.

FORT WORTH, Texas - The Defense Department, strapped for troops for missions in Iraq and Afghanistan, has proposed to Congress that it tap the Internal Revenue Service to locate out-of-touch reservists.


The unusual measure, which the Pentagon said has been examined by lawyers, would allow the IRS to pass on addresses for tens of thousands of former military members who still face recall into the active duty.

The proposal has largely escaped attention amid all the other crises of government, and it is likely to face opposition from privacy rights activists who see information held by the IRS as inviolate.


So, you signed up, served your time and now the US can come and demand that you go back to work. Not only that, but it is trying to subvert laws governing IRS info to find these people. This is bad news.

Can you imagine? You've got a real job, a home, bills, etc and NOW the government comes in and says that you have to give it all up and go to work for them probably at a fraction of your current wage.

[Desertrat]

Whoa up. Part of the deal about the Ready Reserve is that you will tell the Gummint your current address. You don't keep them informed, you've broken the deal and you're the bad guy.

For some 62 years to my awareness, millions of guys have gone into the service, leaving behind jobs and wives and kids and suchlike. Your gripe should be about the uses of the military, not the system which provides for it.

This came up, peripherally, at brunch this AM. Five of us Old Farts were reminiscing about our military years. One mentioned the attitude of the dentists at Elmendorf AFB, who'd been drafted for two years and had left quite lucrative practices. But: Would you be happier that the Airmen there had no dentists at all?

'Rat

[pseudobrit]

Whoa up. Part of the deal about the Ready Reserve is that you will tell the Gummint your current address. You don't keep them informed, you've broken the deal and you're the bad guy

Fine. I understand. But really, does the government breaking the law to catch lawbreakers fly with you?

[Frohickey]

Military enlistments or commissions are always in quanta of 8 years.
You could do the full 8 years in active duty.
You could do the part of the 8 years in active duty, part in reserve, and part in the individual ready reserve.
You are considered part of the military up until the day you receive your DD214, which are your discharge papers.

Why is anyone surprised that the government can use government (IRS) resources in order to locate members of the IRR?

[Ugg]

Military enlistments or commissions are always in quanta of 8 years.
You could do the full 8 years in active duty.
You could do the part of the 8 years in active duty, part in reserve, and part in the individual ready reserve.
You are considered part of the military up until the day you receive your DD214, which are your discharge papers.

Why is anyone surprised that the government can use government (IRS) resources in order to locate members of the IRR?

So when is the last time the IRR was called up? Shouldn't something like that be used for national emergencies instead of unjustified wars? Or, is this just another indication of poor planning on the neocons part?

The IRS should never be used for such purposes. Taxes and military service don't mix, IMHO this is an indication of nascent fascism. Hasn't the Pentagon heard of the internet?

[numediaman]

IMHO this is an indication of nascent fascism.

By George I think he's got it. It took you guys long enough.

[Frohickey]

So when is the last time the IRR was called up? Shouldn't something like that be used for national emergencies instead of unjustified wars? Or, is this just another indication of poor planning on the neocons part?

The IRS should never be used for such purposes. Taxes and military service don't mix, IMHO this is an indication of nascent fascism. Hasn't the Pentagon heard of the internet?

Actually, the IRR has never been called up, because you can't really call up the IRR. The only thing you can do is call up individual soldiers in the IRR 'program' to report to a particular place and time. Then, depending on their military readiness, meaning fitness, finances, etc, they are either put into a training battalion where they are treated like new recruits for a few weeks until they are back in shape, or they put with a new unit that needs their skill set.

As far as your comment about 'something like that be used for national emergencies', I think you are confusing IRR with the militia. The militia can be called up, but we have not done that for generations. And even if the militia were called up, chances are you would not want to use militia in foreign engagements. Better to use them in defense of their homes/CONUS, where they have the advantage of familiar territory, since militia, especially when it has not been called up in any regularity for such a long time would probably be poorly-equipped and probably worse off in fitness than the IRR soldiers.

[mactastic]

Why is anyone surprised that the government can use government (IRS) resources in order to locate members of the IRR?

You know they'll come and take you away AT THE POINT OF A GUN!!! :eek: I mean, that's your objection to taxes in general, right? That the IRS agents will come to your house against your constitutional rights and haul you off AT THE POINT OF A GUN!!! :eek: But since it's military related it's ok with you, just as it's ok by you for taxes to be wasted on NMD, but not on anything like National Health Care or Social Security... noooo not that. If you mention that then the badnasty gummint comes and takes you away AT THE POINT OF A GUN!!! :eek:

[Ugg]

Actually, the IRR has never been called up, because you can't really call up the IRR. The only thing you can do is call up individual soldiers in the IRR 'program' to report to a particular place and time. Then, depending on their military readiness, meaning fitness, finances, etc, they are either put into a training battalion where they are treated like new recruits for a few weeks until they are back in shape, or they put with a new unit that needs their skill set.

As far as your comment about 'something like that be used for national emergencies', I think you are confusing IRR with the militia. The militia can be called up, but we have not done that for generations. And even if the militia were called up, chances are you would not want to use militia in foreign engagements. Better to use them in defense of their homes/CONUS, where they have the advantage of familiar territory, since militia, especially when it has not been called up in any regularity for such a long time would probably be poorly-equipped and probably worse off in fitness than the IRR soldiers.

The militia is a moot point in this day and age unless you're one of those types holed up in the backwoods issuing your own currency and denying the legitamacy of the US govt because it is a member of the UN. So, I don't see why you brought it up.....

So what you're saying is that the IRR has never been utilized by the US or are you just avoiding the issue?

My point was that the IRR should only be activated during times of extreme crisis. This war IMHO does not qualify as such yet the US after hiring 20,000 mercenaries and having over 135,000 troops in Iraq is saying that the numbers are insufficient. This means that either a the IRR are called back or a draft in instituted. Don't you think this is an extreme use of military power? Aren't you concerned that the IRS is being utilized as a tool of the Pentagon PRECISELY because it planned this war so poorly? Don't you feel any outrage that people's lives will be totally disrupted if the IRR is called up because gw wanted to avenge his Daddy? Oh, that's right, if there's a gun involved then it is perfectly ok by you, isn't it!

[Frohickey]

You know they'll come and take you away AT THE POINT OF A GUN!!! :eek: I mean, that's your objection to taxes in general, right? That the IRS agents will come to your house against your constitutional rights and haul you off AT THE POINT OF A GUN!!! :eek: But since it's military related it's ok with you, just as it's ok by you for taxes to be wasted on NMD, but not on anything like National Health Care or Social Security... noooo not that. If you mention that then the badnasty gummint comes and takes you away AT THE POINT OF A GUN!!! :eek:

Did I indicate my approval or disapproval by that statement?
Do you see an explicit approval or disapproval from my statement? Kinda jumpy there, aren't cha? :rolleyes:

What if I were to tell you that during December 31, 1999, I was really, *REALLY* wishing that all governmental computers and governmental databases would succumb to the Millennium computer bug? That, it would be an extremely good idea to start from zero again?

I'm getting tired of spanking you, thread after thread, though, its a bit enjoyable too. :cool:

[mactastic]

Did I indicate my approval or disapproval by that statement?
Do you see an explicit approval or disapproval from my statement? Kinda jumpy there, aren't cha? :rolleyes:

You give explicit disapproval of using the IRS for things you don't agree with. I'm just calling you out on your hipocrasy.

What if I were to tell you that during December 31, 1999, I was really, *REALLY* wishing that all governmental computers and governmental databases would succumb to the Millennium computer bug? That, it would be an extremely good idea to start from zero again?
Huh? I'd say you were crazy. What's that got to do with the price of beans?

I'm getting tired of spanking you, thread after thread, though, its a bit enjoyable too. :cool:

No wonder you're getting tired, you're working like a dog and I can't feel a thing! Spank it harder big boy!

:cool:

That does seem an admission that you are taking this a little too personally though.

[Frohickey]

The militia is a moot point in this day and age unless you're one of those types holed up in the backwoods issuing your own currency and denying the legitamacy of the US govt because it is a member of the UN. So, I don't see why you brought it up.....

So what you're saying is that the IRR has never been utilized by the US or are you just avoiding the issue?

My point was that the IRR should only be activated during times of extreme crisis. This war IMHO does not qualify as such yet the US after hiring 20,000 mercenaries and having over 135,000 troops in Iraq is saying that the numbers are insufficient. This means that either a the IRR are called back or a draft in instituted. Don't you think this is an extreme use of military power? Aren't you concerned that the IRS is being utilized as a tool of the Pentagon PRECISELY because it planned this war so poorly? Don't you feel any outrage that people's lives will be totally disrupted if the IRR is called up because gw wanted to avenge his Daddy? Oh, that's right, if there's a gun involved then it is perfectly ok by you, isn't it!

Not avoiding the issue at all. The IRR has been utilized by the US. I remember during the build-up to the first Gulf War, I asked the 'training' sergeant who those guys where. You see, before you are assigned to a Basic Training company, you might be put into a small 'training' company that gathers up the various recruits as their enlistments start. BT companies have start and stop dates. Lets say, a BT company started training this week, then 11 weeks later, they graduate the recruits and can start Basic training on a new group of recruits. You have multiple BT companies, but sometimes, you get a hole in the schedule where all the BT companies are within the 11 week cycle. So, you end up waiting at the 'training' company for a few weeks.

Anyway, when I was waiting to be assigned to a BT company, I, and other recruits noticed a smaller group marching to chow after us, composed of older people. After asking around, we found out that these older people were part of the IRR, or even Reservists that are going into the Active Army. The 'training' sergeant also said that some of these people could be there until they pass the physical fitness test. Some of them were out of shape.

So, to answer your question, the IRR has been used in the past, usually, when there is a critical skillset required. Why have an IRR if you are not going to need it from time to time?

As to the use of IRS records, I am not the least bit surprised that the government would use IRS records, since IRS records are governmental records. Do I agree with it? No, not particularly, but I am not surprised that the government would use this information. (Since you mention guns. ;), why do you think that I'm also against the requirement of licensing or registration of guns and gun owners? In this instance, you have seen that the government can and is willing to use IRS records to locate IRR soldiers. Its not far-fetched to think that a government can also use gun licensing/registration records to initiate gun confiscation when it suited them!!! :eek: :eek: )

[Frohickey]

No wonder you're getting tired, you're working like a dog and I can't feel a thing! Spank it harder big boy!

:cool:

That does seem an admission that you are taking this a little too personally though.

Nah, that just means you don't have any live pain receptors anymore. :eek: ;) Must be after getting repeatedly reamed by high taxes. :eek:

[mactastic]

Nah, that just means you don't have any live pain receptors anymore. :eek: ;) Must be after getting repeatedly reamed by high taxes. :eek:

That's funny, I can feel a distinct pain in my ass right now. :D

[Frohickey]

Huh? I'd say you were crazy. What's that got to do with the price of beans?

No records would mean no chance of inappropriate use of those records.
Sometimes, its also nice to wipe the data trail clean because you don't know how much of the data is stale, inaccurate or just plain wrong.

Besides, if you wanted to get back in, you could always present your paper documents.

As you might be able to tell, I am not a big fan of 'touch-screen' or electronic voting. Give me ballots with chads, baby!

[Frohickey]

That's funny, I can feel a distinct pain in my ass right now. :D

Don't look at me. I'm not a backdoor adventurer. :eek: :p
Though, I hear lubrication helps. :eek: ;) :D

[mactastic]

Sure, it'd be great to wipe the slate clean for child molesters and rapists just so Frohickey can be sure none of his info is 'stale, inaccurate or just plain wrong'. How about taking some personal responsibility and checking the info yourself?

[LethalWolfe]

Link (http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_irs_051804,00.html)






So, you signed up, served your time and now the US can come and demand that you go back to work. Not only that, but it is trying to subvert laws governing IRS info to find these people. This is bad news.

Can you imagine? You've got a real job, a home, bills, etc and NOW the government comes in and says that you have to give it all up and go to work for them probably at a fraction of your current wage.


Damn dude you make it sound so sinister like this is some cloak 'n dagger loop hole the military wants to keep quiet. If you go into the service you are aware of this. Of course *most* Americans don't go into the service so it makes sense that *most* Americans aren't aware of it. There is also the Retired Reserve. Which is basically anyone who's retired from the military, but still under the age of 60 can be called back (this included my dad up until a few years ago).


Lethal

[zimv20]

What if I were to tell you that during December 31, 1999, I was really, *REALLY* wishing that all governmental computers and governmental databases would succumb to the Millennium computer bug? That, it would be an extremely good idea to start from zero again?

yes, a lot of people who were in debt were thinking that way. those of us w/ actual retirement accounts and positive balances were glad to keep what we'd saved.

[Frohickey]

yes, a lot of people who were in debt were thinking that way. those of us w/ actual retirement accounts and positive balances were glad to keep what we'd saved.

You do have paper copies of the account statements they mail to you, don't you?

As I said, I like having a paper trail.

[Frohickey]

Sure, it'd be great to wipe the slate clean for child molesters and rapists just so Frohickey can be sure none of his info is 'stale, inaccurate or just plain wrong'. How about taking some personal responsibility and checking the info yourself?

Do you know where every single piece of data about you is at? I sure don't. If I did, I wouldn't be getting junk mail, and email spam!

[Desertrat]

Calling up individuals from the IRR was done in Korea, I know; and in Vietnam as well as later on. It's built into our system. That's why I spoke of the issue of the uses of our military, not about the system.

Since when has it been "illegal, immoral or fattening" for the IRS--or any other agency--to provide information on the whereabouts of anybody? Isn't that public information? Even so, those who don't fulfill the requirements of which they were told upon leaving active duty can't claim privacy rights against IRS or the IRR; they broke the rules.

Sure, it's a relatively trivial level of criminality, but the government has no legal bar against its efforts to locate a law-breaker. Going to the IRS is easier than going to the driver's license bureaus of 50 states, where any of us can find the same info.

'Rat

[Frohickey]

Damn dude you make it sound so sinister like this is some cloak 'n dagger loop hole the military wants to keep quiet. If you go into the service you are aware of this. Of course *most* Americans don't go into the service so it makes sense that *most* Americans aren't aware of it. There is also the Retired Reserve. Which is basically anyone who's retired from the military, but still under the age of 60 can be called back (this included my dad up until a few years ago).


Lethal

hehehe... yeah, Ugg was going for the full governmental conspiracy Chicken-Little routine. You get more play if its done that way. :rolleyes:

And, you are right too, that Ugg probably hasn't served or has any inclination going into the service (otherwise, he'd know). That stuff is only for the poor people who have no other choice, or the ones that volunteer in order to claim military veteran status when they run for higher political office. :eek: ;)

I still like the idea in Robert Heinlein's book, Starship Troopers, about only people that have served get to vote or run for office. That, and co-ed showers! :p (if you saw the movie, which didn't follow the book at all, you'd know)

[Desertrat]

Yeah, Frohickey, Heinlein had a bunch of good and/or interesting ideas. What a lot of people ignore about Starship Troopers is the amount of discussion of ethics he puts forth.

The comments from many university professors after WW II about the comparative advantage in maturity for the ex-GIs over those who hadn't served are spot-on. That hasn't changed at all, whether student or non-student. Just knowing you might get shot at tends to inculcate a different view of reality.

'Rat

[mactastic]

hehehe... yeah, Ugg was going for the full governmental conspiracy Chicken-Little routine. You get more play if its done that way. :rolleyes:
Do you know where every single piece of data about you is at? I sure don't. If I did, I wouldn't be getting junk mail, and email spam!

Little government-conspiracy-Chicken-Little-paranoid yourself, aren't you? Ah well, you get more play that way, right?

[Frohickey]

PARAMILITARY FORCES AND RESERVES: Rare Reserve Call Up (http://www.strategypage.com//fyeo/howtomakewar/default.asp?target=HTPARA.HTM)

May 24, 2004: The U.S. Armed Forces are calling to active duty the Individual Ready Reserve (IRR). These are soldiers in the reserve who are not assigned to a unit (and are thus not paid), but are still serving out there remaining time (that they signed up for) in the reserves or active duty. Until their time is expired, they are liable to call up. Some are going to be called up. This is rarely done.

There are 118,000 men and women in the IRR. All have received their military training, served on active or reserve duty and been honorably discharged, but still have several years of military service remaining to serve. When you join the armed forces, you agree to a certain number of years of active service, plus some more in the inactive reserve. There are also soldiers who joined the reserves and* ended up in the inactive reserve. This is because they moved and could find no reserve unit near where they lived, or none with a need for their particular skills. Those in the IRR are supposed to keep the military aware of their current address and health status, but this is often not done. The National Guard has a similar category, the Inactive National Guard (ING).*

By law (10 USC 12302), the president can declare a partial mobilization (which he has done) that allows putting reserve and National Guard troops on active duty for up to 24 months. The president can mobilize up to a million personnel this way. To mobilize more personnel requires a full mobilization, and only Congress can do that, at the request of the president. With a full mobilization, an unlimited number troops can be called up for the duration of the war, plus six months. A full mobilization allows the use of the Standby Reserves (former active duty or reserve troops who volunteer to make themselves available for wartime service) or the Retired Reserve (all retired military personnel automatically pass into the Retired Reserve.) The Standby and Retired reserves provide over 100,000 well trained and experienced personnel. The number is vague because eligibility for active service depends on whether the reservists could pass the active duty physical exam.

=====

Partial mobilization == Individual Ready Reserve
Full mobilization == Standby Reserve/Retired Reserve

Since I'm prior military, that would mean I'm in the Standby Reserve.