Talk Show Host Calls Nick Berg's Father a "Scumbag"

[IJ Reilly]

Ain't this fun, folks?

ONE WEEK after release of the shocking video showing the beheading of Nick Berg, the political battle for the soul of the slain West Chester man rages on.

Yesterday, a new, liberal-leaning media-criticism Web site, Media Matters for America, called attention to comments about Berg's father, Michael, by a Philadelphia-based, nationally syndicated talk-radio host, Glenn Beck.

The group listens to conservative talkers all day and then posts what it considers to be outlandish comments.

It highlighted comments Beck made Friday, when he called anti-war activist Michael Berg "a scumbag" for blaming his son's death - at the hands of unknown terrorists - on the Bush administration.

"I'm beginning to question, you know, 'Can you let your son's body become the same temperature as your son's head before you turn this into a political campaign against the president - could you do that?' " Beck said on the show, heard locally on The Big Talker, 1210-AM.

"I find this guy [Michael Berg] despicable. Everything in me says that... I think he is grieving, but I think he's a scumbag as well. I don't like this guy at all."

Beck said last night that he didn't get more complaints than usual about his Michael Berg comments, and he has no second thoughts about what he said. He added that, as time passes, "I think public opinion will grow closer and closer to mine."

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/breaking_news/8693451.htm?1c

[Neserk]

Let me summarize:

An idiot talk show host called Nick Berg's father a Scumbag for blaming Georgie for his son's death.

This comment (an example of idiocy) was made more public by a liberal media source (I was beginning to wonder if there were any around anymore) which does this on a regular basis.

I think that is what the above says.

[IJ Reilly]

Yes, that's correct. And when he was called on his massively crude and insensitive remarks, Beck essentially redoubled. Apparently he thinks he's in the avant guarde of crudeness and insensitivity, and it's only a matter of time before everyone else is dragging their knuckles. Now, there's a bold vision for a better America.

Actually, this is just one of a piece. We could easily start an entire thread on these scary monsters of the right.

[Neserk]

Yes, that's correct. And when he was called on his massively crude and insensitive remarks, Beck essentially redoubled. Apparently he thinks he's in the avant guarde of crudeness and insensitivity, and it's only a matter of time before everyone else is dragging their knuckles. Now, there's a bold vision for a better America.

Actually, this is just one of a piece. We could easily start an entire thread on these scary monsters of the right.

Since Conservative Howard Stern has now become Liberal (in some ways) Howard Stern I guess someone has to take his place...

[IJ Reilly]

Another recent quote from that leading scary monster, Michael Savage:

Look the enemy is taking advantage of America’s moral code. America is being exploited by their own -- or they’re being hung by the petard of civil rights and human rights. …The problem is the Liberals in this country and the -- the gooney birds at the UN are arguing that the terrorists are not combatants but only criminals, and therefore we’re not allowed to drop a bomb on them. ... There is no greater friend of Al*Qaeda than the ACLU. There is no greater friend of Al*Qaeda than Human Rights Watch. There is no greater friend of Al*Qaeda than the National Lawyers Guild. And if we don’t understand that they would use their power if they had it then we’re really crazy.

[Backtothemac]

Well, I will say this. I think that the guy has every right to morn the loss of his son. However, to blame the administration is short sighted. The man was not in the military, he was there by his own choice. He was offered a flight out of the country. He chose to be there. All of us in the world know right now the risks that are involved by going there.

I just think the man was lashing out because of the death of his son, and that is fine.

Now, I personally think the talk show host was a morron for choosing the choice of words that he did, but I do agree that it is a foolish notion to blame the administration for his son's death.

[Neserk]

Well, I will say this. I think that the guy has every right to morn the loss of his son. However, to blame the administration is short sighted. The man was not in the military, he was there by his own choice. He was offered a flight out of the country. He chose to be there. All of us in the world know right now the risks that are involved by going there.

I just think the man was lashing out because of the death of his son, and that is fine.

Now, I personally think the talk show host was a morron for choosing the choice of words that he did, but I do agree that it is a foolish notion to blame the administration for his son's death.

Why? If it wasn't for Georgie's desire to go and play cops and robbers in Iraq his son would have never been there... When you use your power to take people into an illegal and unwarranted war you *are* to blame for these things.

[kgarner]

Why? If it wasn't for Georgie's desire to go and play cops and robbers in Iraq his son would have never been there... When you use your power to take people into an illegal and unwarranted war you *are* to blame for these things.

His son was not in the military and, therefore, was never forced to go to Iraq. Sure if the war had never happened he may never had gone over there, but that doesn't meant that because it did happen he should have gone.

[IJ Reilly]

Well I suppose he ought to blame the people who did the deed first and foremost, but I can hardly imagine what the Berg family must be going through right now. It's impossible for me to wrap my mind around the concept of having a son murdered in such a horrific public spectacle on the other side of the world, only have some cold, heartless SOB on the radio back home throw your expressions of grief back into your face.

And since we seem to be asking ourselves who condemns what -- where are the condemnations for these radio hoodlums?

[pseudobrit]

Now, I personally think the talk show host was a morron for choosing the choice of words that he did, but I do agree that it is a foolish notion to blame the administration for his son's death.

I might be wrong, but I believe that when Mr. Berg criticized the administration, it was not for the war in general but specifically for their actions in regards to his son.

In particular I think he was upset that the late Mr. Berg missed his scheduled flight out of Iraq because the US had him detained.

[Backtothemac]

I might be wrong, but I believe that when Mr. Berg criticized the administration, it was not for the war in general but specifically for their actions in regards to his son.

In particular I think he was upset that the late Mr. Berg missed his scheduled flight out of Iraq because the US had him detained.

Well, this is a subject of debate. The US says they never detained him, that the Iraqi's did. And, you have to admit the way he has a strange connection to Mossaoui, then he shows up in Iraq with a Tora, etc. Just odd, so they checked him out. If they had not, and the guy was a terrorist and had killed 50 people, then we would all be bent out of shape.

Actually the stuff I have heard was that he was denouncing the war, and the administration on all levels.

IJ, Sean Hannity blasted the guy who said that about Berg's Dad today, and said the guy has every right to feel any way he chooses too, but basically said what I did that his pain is steering his retoric right now, and rightfully so.

Neserk, not wanting to steel the thread, and it you think it will, please start another and I will respond, but how exactly was the war illegal?

[Frohickey]

Well, I will say this. I think that the guy has every right to morn the loss of his son. However, to blame the administration is short sighted. The man was not in the military, he was there by his own choice. He was offered a flight out of the country. He chose to be there. All of us in the world know right now the risks that are involved by going there.

I just think the man was lashing out because of the death of his son, and that is fine.

Now, I personally think the talk show host was a morron for choosing the choice of words that he did, but I do agree that it is a foolish notion to blame the administration for his son's death.

Wasn't his son in Iraq to partake in the lucrative rebuilding contracts and jobs? He was a telecommunications expert, who had some knowledge of the language as well. He probably made more money than the guy on television saying 'Can you hear me now?'

[Backtothemac]

Wasn't his son in Iraq to partake in the lucrative rebuilding contracts and jobs? He was a telecommunications expert, who had some knowledge of the language as well. He probably made more money than the guy on television saying 'Can you hear me now?'

Yes, he was, but that still doesn't mean that the father doesn't have the right to lash out.

[Frohickey]

Yes, he was, but that still doesn't mean that the father doesn't have the right to lash out.

The father should lash out at the 5 that were in the same room as his son was when he was killed. He'd get more satisfaction that way.

[mactastic]

Beck should apologize. It's indefensible to attack someone like Micheal Berg right now. Anything Berg says now comes from a places of pain and grief and rage, and shouldn't be the fodder for some right-wing talk show host with microphone-envy of Limbaugh to try and out-outrage the rest of the AM dial.

On a side note, it's quite amazing the level of hate these radio guys spew, just in general. Limbaugh calls torture a 'fraternity prank' yet he is outraged by the Berg murder? How partisan can you be? And, as has been noted by others, nary a word is said by the FCC. And it is bought wholsale by a group who has managed to convince themselves that they are the only unbiased source of news in the world! This while Disney will proudly carry Limbaugh but won't distribute Farenheit 9/11 because it might be controversial...

[Backtothemac]

Beck should apologize. It's indefensible to attack someone like Micheal Berg right now. Anything Berg says now comes from a places of pain and grief and rage, and shouldn't be the fodder for some right-wing talk show host with microphone-envy of Limbaugh to try and out-outrage the rest of the AM dial.

On a side note, it's quite amazing the level of hate these radio guys spew, just in general. Limbaugh calls torture a 'fraternity prank' yet he is outraged by the Berg murder? How partisan can you be? And, as has been noted by others, nary a word is said by the FCC. And it is bought wholsale by a group who has managed to convince themselves that they are the only unbiased source of news in the world! This while Disney will proudly carry Limbaugh but won't distribute Farenheit 9/11 because it might be controversial...

Well, I can say this, the pictures of the Iraq "torture", I got worse than that when I was a pledge at my Fraternity. Seriously. It is wrong, and it should be punished, but torture? Like I said, I went through far worse as a pledge.

So, when Rush is outraged by the Berg killing. yea, there is a huge difference.

[mactastic]

Well, I can say this, the pictures of the Iraq "torture", I got worse than that when I was a pledge at my Fraternity. Seriously. It is wrong, and it should be punished, but torture? Like I said, I went through far worse as a pledge.

So, when Rush is outraged by the Berg killing. yea, there is a huge difference.

Were you sodomized with a blunt instrument at your Fraternity? Doused with cold water, chained to a wall, and left outside in the winter by your Fraternity? Heard of any pledges being beaten to death by your Fraternity?

[JamesDPS]

I just got a strong image of Jeff Bridge's character in The Fisher King there....

It is understandable that the father would lash out at every conceivable person or group to blame for his son's death - I would do the same, it is a natural emotional response - and to call him a scumbag is deplorable, goes without saying. It's also truly indicative of the mindset that anyone who questions Bush, his administration, or national policies, "hates America" and is open to any kind of abuse.... this talk show host sounds like he's in the same category as the likes of Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly.... shameful. Either that, or he's just really good at getting attention without consideration for other people, a la Fisher King...

[Backtothemac]

Were you sodomized with a blunt instrument at your Fraternity? Doused with cold water, chained to a wall, and left outside in the winter by your Fraternity? Heard of any pledges being beaten to death by your Fraternity?

Hmmm.

No, Yes, Yes, Yes, No. Also, forced to clean the bathroom with Muratic Acid. Forced to sleep in vomit. Forced into Elephant walks, Forced into Bones and Toes.

Yea, it was other than the sodomy pretty equal to or worse than what they went through over there.

As for the beatings. That is totally uncalled for, and what, 10 or 20 out of thousands. There are mistakes made in everything in life, but what happened to Berg is totally different.

[mactastic]

Hmmm.

No, Yes, Yes, Yes, No. Also, forced to clean the bathroom with Muratic Acid. Forced to sleep in vomit. Forced into Elephant walks, Forced into Bones and Toes.

Yea, it was other than the sodomy pretty equal to or worse than what they went through over there.

You had a choice about your fraternity experience. You could have chosen to not go through with it, unlike a prisoner. Also, I'm sure your experiences weren't prolonged, nor did you have a view of that situation being unending until your will broke. You knew if you toughed it out, you'd come out on the other side.

As for the beatings. That is totally uncalled for, and what, 10 or 20 out of thousands. There are mistakes made in everything in life, but what happened to Berg is totally different.[/QUOTE]

So if thousands of our citizens were captured, and only a handful were killed you'd view that as an OK deal?

And besides, do you think what I mentions is the complete list of horrors that have occured?

[zimv20]

Yea, it was other than the sodomy pretty equal to or worse than what they went through over there.

i'm not sure the "i've had it worse" discussion is the one to have. i'm more interested if the Geneva Convention was violated. however, if *you* were the one captured by enemy troups and subjected to all the things you've described in your fraternity hazing, would you be so quick to brush it off?


As for the beatings. That is totally uncalled for, and what, 10 or 20 out of thousands.
i'm guessing we've seen only the tip of the iceberg.

[Backtothemac]

It is a catch 22. Really it is. If they captured Al-Zaqari (SP?) we know he has massive amounts of info. So what do we do? Do we torture him to get it? If it saves the lives of thousands of people?

I have no correct answer to the question. And I am not pretending to be more mighty than anyone, but there is a distinct difference between Berg's violent killing, and the mistreatment of the Iraqi POW's. Were we wrong. Yep. definately, was Al-Zaqari wrong. Oh, yea, on a whole new plain.

[pseudobrit]

It is a catch 22. Really it is. If they captured Al-Zaqari (SP?) we know he has massive amounts of info. So what do we do? Do we torture him to get it? If it saves the lives of thousands of people?

I have no correct answer to the question. And I am not pretending to be more mighty than anyone, but there is a distinct difference between Berg's violent killing, and the mistreatment of the Iraqi POW's. Were we wrong. Yep. definately, was Al-Zaqari wrong. Oh, yea, on a whole new plain.

Torture is counterproductive to interrogation. It hardens your target in the best of cases.

[diamond geezer]

Hmmm.

forced to clean the bathroom with Muratic Acid. Forced to sleep in vomit. Forced into Elephant walks, Forced into Bones and Toes.



Sounds like the sort of defense a torturer would use, when asked to explain how he could do such things to other people.

"it's not my fault, it's how I was brought up"

Did you find this abuse "character building"?

[Frohickey]

Torture is counterproductive to interrogation. It hardens your target in the best of cases.

Maybe we should tell the Saudis/Egyptians that they are doing it all wrong, that torture isn't supposed to work.

[pseudobrit]

Maybe we should tell the Saudis/Egyptians that they are doing it all wrong, that torture isn't supposed to work.

We can't do that! They're our allies! And we all know friends of the Bush family are off-limits.

[IJ Reilly]

Keeping in mind, we saw only the least offensive of these photos, apparently. The members of congress who saw the others were, to a man and woman, regardless of party, deeply affected. And of course, nobody saw what wasn't photographed.

BTW, I pledged a fraternity long ago, and I can tell you if anything like what's being described happened to me, I'd have walked out that door and never come back. Now, that's one option these people never had. So I'm sorry, but I find the hazing analogy to be pretty darned creepy.

[Backtothemac]

Sounds like the sort of defense a torturer would use, when asked to explain how he could do such things to other people.

"it's not my fault, it's how I was brought up"

Did you find this abuse "character building"?

Actually I did find it to be character building. I know there is nothing that I can face that I can't take.

[IJ Reilly]

Hazing doesn't build character, unless you count as character the desire to do it yourself to the next group that comes along. This is why it's prohibited on most campuses.

[Ugg]

Well, I can say this, the pictures of the Iraq "torture", I got worse than that when I was a pledge at my Fraternity. Seriously. It is wrong, and it should be punished, but torture? Like I said, I went through far worse as a pledge.

So, when Rush is outraged by the Berg killing. yea, there is a huge difference.

To get into this fraternity were you yanked out of your house at the middle of the night by a bunch of goons carrying guns, screaming in a foreign lanuguage? Were you locked up for months on end with no contact to the outside and no idea what you were in for?

Context is all dude.....

Maybe what is needed is that all frats spend a few weeks at Abu Ghraib, maybe there would end up being fewer trigger happy yahoos in the WH and the pentagon.

[Backtothemac]

To get into this fraternity were you yanked out of your house at the middle of the night by a bunch of goons carrying guns, screaming in a foreign lanuguage? Were you locked up for months on end with no contact to the outside and no idea what you were in for?

Context is all dude.....

Maybe what is needed is that all frats spend a few weeks at Abu Ghraib, maybe there would end up being fewer trigger happy yahoos in the WH and the pentagon.

Hang on a sec. There is a massive diffference between the treatment of the prisioners at the prison (even those that were killed) and the killing of Berg. Huge difference.

IJ, I never, not one time hazed anyone after pledging. But, it did build character in me that I could do anything.

[mactastic]

Hang on a sec. There is a massive diffference between the treatment of the prisioners at the prison (even those that were killed) and the killing of Berg. Huge difference.


Yeah, Berg's murder took less than 15 minutes. Some of the prisoners who died in our custody took days to torture to death. Huge difference indeed.

[IJ Reilly]

I think maybe we're all barking up the wrong tree here. The prisoner abuse and the Berg murder are connected only by politics. They are both wrong, and can be discussed as immoral acts independently, without reference to each other.

[mactastic]

Agreed, it's just frustrating when people compare our torture to fraternity hijinks, but their torture is the most awful thing in the world. Both are abhorrent acts that deserve condemnation on every level.

[IJ Reilly]

All of which brings up a question: Who is working so diligently to connect these two events? Well, the terrorists, for one. And for another...?

[Chip NoVaMac]

I might be wrong, but I believe that when Mr. Berg criticized the administration, it was not for the war in general but specifically for their actions in regards to his son.

In particular I think he was upset that the late Mr. Berg missed his scheduled flight out of Iraq because the US had him detained.

Not to mention reports of a prisoner exchange request....

[Chip NoVaMac]

Beck should apologize. It's indefensible to attack someone like Micheal Berg right now. Anything Berg says now comes from a places of pain and grief and rage, and shouldn't be the fodder for some right-wing talk show host with microphone-envy of Limbaugh to try and out-outrage the rest of the AM dial.

On a side note, it's quite amazing the level of hate these radio guys spew, just in general. Limbaugh calls torture a 'fraternity prank' yet he is outraged by the Berg murder? How partisan can you be? And, as has been noted by others, nary a word is said by the FCC. And it is bought wholsale by a group who has managed to convince themselves that they are the only unbiased source of news in the world! This while Disney will proudly carry Limbaugh but won't distribute Farenheit 9/11 because it might be controversial...

What is not being talked about is the deaths of detainees in Ira at coalition hands....

This is more than just "errors in judgment".

[Backtothemac]

Agreed, it's just frustrating when people compare our torture to fraternity hijinks, but their torture is the most awful thing in the world. Both are abhorrent acts that deserve condemnation on every level.

Allow me to clarify. The prisioners that died from abuse, like the guy that was shot trying to escape (although we don't know the whole story) there is no justification for it. All I was saying is that the pictures of,

aw forget it. Nothing I say ever matters anyway.

[Ugg]

Allow me to clarify. The prisioners that died from abuse, like the guy that was shot trying to escape (although we don't know the whole story) there is no justification for it. All I was saying is that the pictures of,

aw forget it. Nothing I say ever matters anyway.

I think I understand where you're coming from and the point you're trying to make. My point however, is that Frat houses are frat houses and prisons are prisons. You choose to join a frat, you don't choose, or at least the ICRC says that 70-90% of the prisoners in Abu Ghraib did NOT deserve to be there. Even more important, where do you draw the line? It's one thing to look at a photo of someone with a bag over his head standing on a pedestal, it's another to see the anguish that person is experiencing. In a frat house, it may be a character building experience. In prison the reason is to break down the prisoner.

Yes, some of the photos that we saw are not that horrifying to Americans, accustomed as we are to non stop, on demand sex and violence. In the middle east and especially in Iraq where few people had ready access to western media, such actions are not only extremely degrading within the context of Islam society but are in line with how SH treated his prisoners.

Don't fall into Rush's trap. There's no way out of it, because once you allow the abuse in Iraq to be considered little more than a frat prank then 9/11 has to be seen in the same light, just a handful of upper middle class Saudis out to prove themselves to their frat.

[Backtothemac]

No, I think it is despicable what happened. And you are right there is a big difference between being in a frat and being in a prison. My point, and only point was that the people that were trying to say the abuse was just as bad as Berg's death were misguided. That there was a difference.

That was my only point, that and the dad had a right to lash out. Even though I think he was misguided to blame the administration for his son's death.

[mactastic]

No, I think it is despicable what happened. And you are right there is a big difference between being in a frat and being in a prison. My point, and only point was that the people that were trying to say the abuse was just as bad as Berg's death were misguided. That there was a difference.

Are you talking only about 'the abuse' seen in the photos? Because sure, there is a world of difference between prisoner humiliation and a slow decapitation. If you are talking about 'the abuse' in total, then I think you are misguided in saying Berg's death is worse than being tortured for days before you are killed. But remember, there are many photos yet to come, and from what the senators who have seen them have said, they document rape and murder.

[Ugg]

I think Berg's death is more horrifying simply because it was filmed. Seeing a beat up dead body in a casket with ice isn't as disturbing as seeing someone's head cut off. Such executions in the middle east aren't nearly as disturbing to those who live there as they are to us. I don't know whether beheading was ever a part of American justice but it certainly has a history in the west.

Being fried on an electric chair seems equally as horrifying to me and I think many people around the world are astounded that the US which is one of the world leaders in "legal" executions is so upset over the Berg video. Yes, it is disturbing because we are not accustomed to such bloody scenes, but why the outrage? No, I mean that, why the outrage?

As far as his father's comments, let's face it, it's a murky case, with shadows of terrorist connections in Nick's background, questions over whether he was held by the Americans, perhaps even questions about his connection to the Mossad. It must be horrible to see your son's execution being so publicly displayed and it doesn't surprise me that he has lashed out at the US and gw and blamed them for his death. Mourning for a son must be ahorrible thing and for this talk show host to lash out at him is one of the sickest things the right wing media has done. Let the parents mourn, don't turn their mourning into political fodder.

[Frohickey]

I think Berg's death is more horrifying simply because it was filmed.

How about this (http://rawasongs.fancymarketing.net/movies/zarmeena.mpg) one?
Or this (http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/handcut3.htm) one?

[Backtothemac]

How about this (http://rawasongs.fancymarketing.net/movies/zarmeena.mpg) one?
Or this (http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/handcut3.htm) one?

No offense, but what does that have to do with anything being discussed here. And how about a warning.

Mactastic, I am talking about the pictures that are already out. Not what is to come.

[mactastic]

Mactastic, I am talking about the pictures that are already out. Not what is to come.

OK, fair enough. That's where the confusion lies. I see those photos as the tip of an iceberg. Apparently you don't. But with 20 some-odd deaths in US custody being investigated I don't have much faith that this abuse scandal will end with the pictures we've seen thus far. And like I said before, some of what's to come is supposed to be far worse than what we've seen to date.

[Backtothemac]

OK, fair enough. That's where the confusion lies. I see those photos as the tip of an iceberg. Apparently you don't. But with 20 some-odd deaths in US custody being investigated I don't have much faith that this abuse scandal will end with the pictures we've seen thus far. And like I said before, some of what's to come is supposed to be far worse than what we've seen to date.

And as I have said before, if it is. Then the soldiers that committed the crimes should be put to death. Period.

[skunk]

And as I have said before, if it is. Then the soldiers that committed the crimes should be put to death. Period.
Is that even possible? And what about the higher-ups?

It's just as important that the "Miller Heavy"™ interrogation routines at Guantanamo and Bagram get sorted out as well. Either this treatment is acceptable, or it's not. Why keep Miller in place? Miller should go, as should whoever sent him to Iraq. After all, he seems to have instigated the enlightened regime at Guantanamo, and somebody obviously thought that was "effective" enough to want to export it to Bagram and Iraq. This will not blow over.

[pseudobrit]

Actually I did find it to be character building. I know there is nothing that I can face that I can't take.

The US military (quite possibly the authority on character building) doesn't use hazing to shape its soldiers. Are they wrong or are frats that haze just full of immature sadists?

[Backtothemac]

The US military (quite possibly the authority on character building) doesn't use hazing to shape its soldiers. Are they wrong or are frats that haze just full of immature sadists?

LOL. That is the funniest thing I have ever heard you say! Have you ever gone through basic training? All it is is character building through hazing.

[pseudobrit]

LOL. That is the funniest thing I have ever heard you say! Have you ever gone through basic training? All it is is character building through hazing.

Oh really? Drill sergeants are allowed to beat their recruits?

[Frohickey]

Oh really? Drill sergeants are allowed to beat their recruits?

They used to. As recent as WW2.

[takao]

LOL. That is the funniest thing I have ever heard you say! Have you ever gone through basic training? All it is is character building through hazing.

basic training: yes
character building: yes ..i'm more pacifist than ever before..
was there hazing in basic training: no
would it have been allowed (here in austria): no

my experience was:

1 week field exercise: a few liters of sweat
1 week NBC scout course: a few gallons of sweat
correcting a badly written letter from your former drill instructor and seeing his face when pointing out all the errors he made: priceless

[Neserk]

LOL. That is the funniest thing I have ever heard you say! Have you ever gone through basic training? All it is is character building through hazing.

Sorry, I"ve seen a video from VMI that depicts this Hazing (shot by a real person, not a tv camera) Abuse in the form of hazing does not build character not matter what they tell you. Abuse is never character building.

[mactastic]

Oh really? Drill sergeants are allowed to beat their recruits?

There is most definetly a culture of hazing in the military. It's officially frowned upon, but since it's traditional it's a pretty open secret. Ask about the guys who get their medals pounded into their chests.

[diamond geezer]

My point, and only point was that the people that were trying to say the abuse was just as bad as Berg's death were misguided. That there was a difference.


Although I'm sure you wouldn't admit it (even perhaps to yourself), the big difference was that Berg was American and therefore his death was much worse.

[Backtothemac]

Oh really? Drill sergeants are allowed to beat their recruits?

Hazing goes far beyond things that are physical. Now a days, no, but I bet Rat got ruffed up by a DI or two. I know my dad did. And, yes, I saw my DI smack a couple of people around.

[Backtothemac]

Although I'm sure you wouldn't admit it (even perhaps to yourself), the big difference was that Berg was American and therefore his death was much worse.


Actually if they would have shot him, it would have been much better. Beheading is beyond sick, cruel, and disgusting.

So, I was just as outraged about Daniel Pearl. I am just as outraged about any Iraqi prisoner that was killed in custody.

[Backtothemac]

Sorry, I"ve seen a video from VMI that depicts this Hazing (shot by a real person, not a tv camera) Abuse in the form of hazing does not build character not matter what they tell you. Abuse is never character building.

There is a fine line between abuse and harsh disipline. A very thin line. It does build character, it builds mental and physical toughness, and makes you either believe in yourself above everything else, or breaks you.

Those that break don't wear the uniform.

[takao]

There is a fine line between abuse and harsh disipline. A very thin line. It does build character, it builds mental and physical toughness, and makes you either believe in yourself above everything else, or breaks you.

Those that break don't wear the uniform.

well i hate the army more than ever before..if you call that "build character" and i do not 'believe in myself above everything else' and yeah i didn't break during basic training...
we were far from 'prussian discipline' but the command still tries to get us into the army permanently...in the last year i got multiple invitions for information-seminars about careers in the army...just like everybody else who was in service in the last 5 year...they don't care who you are as long as you join

[skunk]

There is a fine line between abuse and harsh disipline. A very thin line. It does build character, it builds mental and physical toughness, and makes you either believe in yourself above everything else, or breaks you.
Or makes you into a complete a-hole with a determination to mete it out to the next victim you find? Where is the "fine line" between shoving a broomstick up somebody's arse and harsh discipline? If you think these two things are virtually indistinguishable, we have a serious communication problem.

Those that break don't wear the uniform.
And those that do wear the uniform? Are they doing these things because they want to build the Iraqis' characters? Passing on the benefit of their experience?

[Backtothemac]

Or makes you into a complete a-hole with a determination to mete it out to the next victim you find? Where is the "fine line" between shoving a broomstick up somebody's arse and harsh discipline? If you think these two things are virtually indistinguishable, we have a serious communication problem.


And those that do wear the uniform? Are they doing these things because they want to build the Iraqis' characters? Passing on the benefit of their experience?

WTF, take the wax out of your ears and listen will ya. I am not talking about the Iraqi's, I am talking about acts that I WENT THROUGH AS A PLEDGE, AND A RECRUIT. I AM IN NO WAY TRYING TO JUSTIFY WHAT IS NOT JUSTIFIABLE IN IRAQ. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR WHAT THOSE MEN WENT THROUGH BECAUSE THEY WERE IN A PRISION. ALL I HAVE TRIED TO SAY IS THE PICTURES THAT I SAW WERE SIMILAR TO WHAT I WENT THROUGH AS A PLEDGE. GET OFF MY ASS ABOUT THINGS I AM NOT SAYING. I HAVE SAID THAT THOSE THAT ARE GUILTY SHOULD SUFFER THE HARSHEST PENATLY POSSIBLE.

I never said that in basic they shove brooms up peoples asses. Go back and re-read what I posted before you try to put words into my mouth

[skunk]

WTF, take the wax out of your ears and listen will ya. I am not talking about the Iraqi's, I am talking about acts that I WENT THROUGH AS A PLEDGE, AND A RECRUIT. I AM IN NO WAY TRYING TO JUSTIFY WHAT IS NOT JUSTIFIABLE IN IRAQ. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR WHAT THOSE MEN WENT THROUGH BECAUSE THEY WERE IN A PRISION. ALL I HAVE TRIED TO SAY IS THE PICTURES THAT I SAW WERE SIMILAR TO WHAT I WENT THROUGH AS A PLEDGE. GET OFF MY ASS ABOUT THINGS I AM NOT SAYING. I HAVE SAID THAT THOSE THAT ARE GUILTY SHOULD SUFFER THE HARSHEST PENATLY POSSIBLE.

I never said that in basic they shove brooms up peoples asses. Go back and re-read what I posted before you try to put words into my mouth
I did read it. With astonishment.

[mactastic]

Yeah that prisoner abuse is ok because WE don't behead people. We only haze them. :rolleyes:

[poopyhead]

There is a fine line between abuse and harsh disipline. A very thin line. It does build character, it builds mental and physical toughness, and makes you either believe in yourself above everything else, or breaks you.

Those that break don't wear the uniform.

I've been through hazing
I went through "tap-ins" (like being a pledge) a couple of times, and I have hazed other individuals though I never used sexual humiliation
and as I understand it for both the military and greek orgs. the whole idea is to break you and then build you up as a group and to have fun seeing how far you can push others before they push back
in effect it is those who were broken who serve
those with "character" who do not yield to the abuse end up spending time in the brig or are kicked out
the idea of the military is being mentally weak as an individual but strong as a group when led by a controlling authority

[skunk]

greek orgs
??? :confused:
What are these?

[zimv20]

i'm not at all clear how this gloating is any different than showing off nick berg's head:

[poopyhead]

??? :confused:
What are these?

fraternities and sororities

they are fairly popular in american universities
they are basically very selective social clubs that typically using hazing upon their recruits

[poopyhead]

i'm not at all clear how this gloating is any different than showing off nick berg's head:

these are from the disk of new pics found today, right?

[skunk]

fraternities and sororities

they are fairly popular in american universities
they are basically very selective social clubs that typically using hazing upon their recruits
Ah. Hence the greek letters to designate them. I see. Thanks. :)

[Backtothemac]

Oh ****. For the love of christ. PEOPLE. I am not trying to justify the actions of those soldiers. They should be shot if they killed an iraqi detainee, and should be in jail for many years for what they did on the pictures that have been released.

There is that clear!

:mad:

All I said is that the pictures released so far remind me of pledging. Why am I wrong for saying that? Exactly, I am not. Get over it, and quit attacking me for **** I am not saying!

[zimv20]

these are from the disk of new pics found today, right?
found them here (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6217.htm)

[poopyhead]

found them here (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6217.htm)

thanks, I think these pictures are part of this
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5012911/


MSNBC News Services
Updated: 8:03 p.m.*ET May*19, 2004

WASHINGTON - The top military commander in Iraq told Congress on Wednesday that U.S. personnel who have received relatively light punishment in the prisoner abuse scandal may yet face criminal charges.

Meantime, the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee revealed that the Pentagon has recovered another disk containing more photos of prisoner abuse.

Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez said that as the investigation into prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad and elsewhere progresses, others who have received reprimands or not faced any punishment may be charged.

[IJ Reilly]

All I said is that the pictures released so far remind me of pledging. Why am I wrong for saying that? Exactly, I am not. Get over it, and quit attacking me for **** I am not saying!

As you know, I don't necessarily agree with you on your theories about hazing building character, but I said my piece on it, and that was that. Now I think everybody's who's still pounding on your case should cut you some slack.

Enough already with this, people. Time to move on.

[skunk]

As you know, I don't necessarily agree with you on your theories about hazing building character, but I said my piece on it, and that was that. Now I think everybody's who's still pounding on your case should cut you some slack.

Enough already with this, people. Time to move on.
Now THAT'S leadership! :D

[Backtothemac]

As you know, I don't necessarily agree with you on your theories about hazing building character, but I said my piece on it, and that was that. Now I think everybody's who's still pounding on your case should cut you some slack.

Enough already with this, people. Time to move on.

Thanks buddy ;)

I agree with everyone here that it is an outrage, as blemish on an otherwise great military. I don't condone it. It isn't hazing. It is torture. Some of it reminded me of hazing, that is all.

[skunk]

Thanks buddy ;)

I agree with everyone here that it is an outrage, as blemish on an otherwise great military. I don't condone it. It isn't hazing. It is torture. Some of it reminded me of hazing, that is all.
OK :D

[Backtothemac]

OK :D

Thanks man. I think it was just a misunderstanding over several posts that lead to a mistaken belief of position.
:D

[zimv20]

Thanks man. I think it was just a misunderstanding over several posts that lead to a mistaken belief of position.
:D
WHAT?!?!? how could you call the torture at abu ghrain a misunderstanding?!?!

just kidding!

:-)

[Neserk]

There is a fine line between abuse and harsh disipline. A very thin line. It does build character, it builds mental and physical toughness, and makes you either believe in yourself above everything else, or breaks you.

Those that break don't wear the uniform.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. When you talk about people getting smacked around you are talking about abuse.

[pseudobrit]

All I said is that the pictures released so far remind me of pledging. Why am I wrong for saying that? Exactly, I am not. Get over it, and quit attacking me for **** I am not saying!

I hope your outlook on the torture has changed in light of the photos zim posted and also in reference to the written reports of much more horrific acts.

Or was posing with dead pledges packed in ice and ramming broomsticks up their asses part of the hazing ritual too?

[Backtothemac]

I hope your outlook on the torture has changed in light of the photos zim posted and also in reference to the written reports of much more horrific acts.

Or was posing with dead pledges packed in ice and ramming broomsticks up their asses part of the hazing ritual too?

Dude, I have said all along that if the pictures and video ARE worse, then punish those dumb asses to the end of the earth. The ****s that are posing with the dead body. AT THE VERY LEAST, should get conduct unbecoming a Marine, and be discharged and serve 3 years in a military prison. The asshole that killed the Iraqi should get death before a firing squad. Send a message to the world that it was isolated, and will NOT be tollerated.

[zimv20]

Send a message to the world that it was isolated, and will NOT be tollerated.
how do you wish bush/rumsfeld would have handled this differently?

[pseudobrit]

Dude, I have said all along that if the pictures and video ARE worse, then punish those dumb asses to the end of the earth. The ****s that are posing with the dead body. AT THE VERY LEAST, should get conduct unbecoming a Marine, and be discharged and serve 3 years in a military prison. The asshole that killed the Iraqi should get death before a firing squad. Send a message to the world that it was isolated, and will NOT be tollerated.

We have no quarrel then.

But the problem is that such punishment, though you and I would find it adequate, is not enough for the Iraqi people nor the Arab world as a whole, and that's what's truly important in the long run.

They want to see people swing.

They see such torture and humiliation as an attack on their dignity and honour as a people, not just infractions of the Geneva convention or violations of the codes of military justice. This goes beyond simple abuse and strikes at something cultural that is bigger than we can understand.

There's a documentary out on DVD, The Fog of War, about Bob McNamara. I highly suggest you rent it. One of the lessons he says he learned from his tenure was that you must be able to empathise (not sympathise, but be able to really put yourself in their skin) with your enemy in order to defeat him. That, he says, is precisely why we averted WW3 during the Cuban missile crisis even though we were at a disadvantage and why we lost in Vietnam even though we won the individual battles.

I don't think the Bush administration understands this. Which is why Iraq is now an impressive military success with an unachievable victory.

[skunk]

Send a message to the world that it was isolated.
Was it?