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Soc7777777
May 20, 2004, 05:08 PM
ok so this is my rant about apple and the ONLY reason i did not buy an apple a month ago when i bought my computer...

there are two trends in laptop computers now
1. bigger screen, bigger hard drive, more power
2. smaller everything, longer battery life

The first trend is satisfied by apples offerings of the 15" and 17" powerbook and more recently also with the 14" ibook

The second trend is where apple is missing the mark... it seems that dell and ibm and sony and toshiba and gateway are all producing ultraportable notebooks that do very well (aka ibm x40, dell 300m, toshiba portege r100, sony vio gateway 200 or something like that)

all those notebooks seem to be in the 2.5lbs - 4lbs and about 1" tall with the lid shut... apple does not have an offering that can comptete with these notebooks in that size range... i think that apple should have added a 1.25 Ghz G4 that was in a much smaller form factor... like a 3lb 12" 1" tall form

They could even call this the powerbook mini and eventually spin it off into its own devision within apple and put ol stevo in charge of it

this would appeal to the student and business men who are more worried about mobility than power (which is a large percentage of users)

Sun Baked
May 20, 2004, 05:18 PM
Yes they are smaller, but you also have to lug around more crap (drives/docking station) if you need to read a CD/DVD.

Plus these ultra small PCs are competing with PDAs and PocketPCs.

haiggy
May 20, 2004, 05:19 PM
Thank you for your opinion.

Kwyjibo
May 20, 2004, 05:23 PM
first off, don't start your threads in caps, it just annoying

second this are pretty baseless points,
all of their smaller notebooks have cd drives and reasonable hard drive sizes. Battery power can be improved but that will probably be solved into the future.

they work around a great compromise between all of these great features which creates a successful line.apple has had a very protable computer for a long time in their 12" models. first with the iBooks' and then last year with the 12" powerbook which I own. An extra pound should not matter to the average consumer. And before you give me the do you know speech, i'm a college student whos sucessfully carried books and my 12" powerbook with me and had no troubles. Maybe its time to quite complaning about a pound and a few ounces.

Soc7777777
May 20, 2004, 05:24 PM
Yes they are smaller, but you also have to lug around more crap (drives/docking station) if you need to read a CD/DVD.

Plus these ultra small PCs are competing with PDAs and PocketPCs.


see thats the thing, you really dont, the only time i have ever used my external cd drive is the first time i use the cd, then i use a program called alcohol 120% (wierd name) to create a cd image and a virtual drive to mount this image, so basicly i NEVER need a cd... all the cds i have are stored on my hard drive in the form of virtual cds... these virtual drives run the program at 200x compared to like 24x that actual drives get... i think this is a much better solution to the size problem... i think eventaully cds will be completely gone and dvds will be used, but only in the form of external, and software will come in the form of like a usb flash drive (this is based on the assumption that the flash drives get lowered enough in price to make this beneficial to the software companies)

i just know from experience that i hardly ever lug around my external combo drive, it goes with me, but never leaves the laptop bag... its there just incase i need to install someting or view someting

Fukui
May 20, 2004, 05:28 PM
all those notebooks seem to be in the 2.5lbs - 4lbs and about 1" tall with the lid shut... apple does not have an offering that can comptete with these notebooks in that size range... i think that apple should have added a 1.25 Ghz G4 that was in a much smaller form factor... like a 3lb 12" 1" tall form

All apple laptops are 1" except the iBook. But point taken. I saw sony's new 13.3 inch laptop, and even though the price was a little high (even compared to apple) I was thinking...13 inch PB 13 inch PB 13 inch PB!! And since the iBooks are using much slower CPU/HD etc, they definitely should be half as thin and light as they are now. Your not the only one that wants a thinner-lighter apple laptop...I just dont wanna give the CD-Drive up...

slipper
May 20, 2004, 05:28 PM
i totally agree. thats the reason why i bought a 12" g4 iBook. though i do think the ultra small untra portables are a lost cause, having no optical drive or modem. Creating a lighter and skinnier notebook with an optical drive and modem would be great!

Soc7777777
May 20, 2004, 05:33 PM
Maybe its time to quite complaning about a pound and a few ounces.

im thinking maybe its time that you go take a economics class and learn that companies are succesfull by offering what consumers want, and if a consumer wants a 2.99lb computer like i have now (enough consumers), then it becomes smart for the company to produce that product... im not complaining about existing lines, i think they are great, i just think they need an ultraportable offering such as toshibas 2.4 lb r100 or my dell 300m 2.99lb or the new sony which is supposed to get down to 2.2lbs... all im saying is that these computers have a strong demand (hence all the companies offering them) and that apple would be smart to make an offering like that

so dont tell me my points are baseless, because your logic without merit

patrick0brien
May 20, 2004, 05:47 PM
im thinking maybe its time that you go take a economics class and learn that companies are succesfull by offering what consumers want, and if a consumer wants a 2.99lb computer like i have now (enough consumers), then it becomes smart for the company to produce that product... im not complaining about existing lines, i think they are great, i just think they need an ultraportable offering such as toshibas 2.4 lb r100 or my dell 300m 2.99lb or the new sony which is supposed to get down to 2.2lbs... all im saying is that these computers have a strong demand (hence all the companies offering them) and that apple would be smart to make an offering like that

so dont tell me my points are baseless, because your logic without merit

-Soc7777777

If I were you I'd have done some research before pulling the market research card out of your hat. The 12"PB's are very difficult to keep on the shelves. Remember, even to this day, the 12"PB is the smallest, lightest full function notebook computer on the market. Only required out-of-the-box peripheral is the power cube, which, in itself, is more portable than any of my PC bricks.

It's just a matter of physics, you want a DVD burner, Wireless, Full-size keyboard, USB, DVI, FireWire, RJ-45, RJ-11, the 12"PB is as small as anything can get. And the PB has one more port that the fullfunction definition: FireWire.

I can't wait to see what Apple will do when the 1.5" and 1" drives get affordable :O

Sure, there is a market for the machines you refer to, and it appears that you are one of them, but it's not as bg as the business travelers who cannot afford to chase external components about.

dopefiend
May 20, 2004, 05:54 PM
Remember, even to this day, the 12"PB is the smallest, lightest full function notebook computer on the market.

Uh....You are incorrect.

Go have a look around at laptops on cnet. You will find a few that are smaller than the 12 incher that are full function notebooks.

Sun Baked
May 20, 2004, 06:04 PM
If you bought the Dell, why are you here?

You should be orgasmically happy with your thinner, lighter, faster, cheaper purchase.

Plus it should last you far longer than the years people spend with their Macs. http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6694&stc=1

tamara6
May 20, 2004, 06:04 PM
My Pismo's dvd drive went out about a year ago, so I know what it is like to have a portable with no optical drive. I didn't think it was much fun. Either I had to tote my external combo drive along (bleh!) or explain to people that I'd have to take their cd home and load it there. I felt like a fool.

I'm glad the no optical drive solution works for some people, but for me, the primary reason I bought my new PB was so I'd have a functioning optical drive again.

Just my point of view.

G4scott
May 20, 2004, 06:51 PM
I have a 12" PowerBook, and I wouldn't trade it for a smaller computer unless it had a DVD burner, FireWire, a 60 gig HD, DVI out, and a full size keyboard. Believe it or not, I actually use my DVD burner on the go! FireWire makes it easy to transfer pictures to my computer, and burn them onto a CD, or make a DVD from them. My 12" PowerBook is my desktop replacement, and I do a bit more than surf the internet and chat online. It's powerful enough for me to do the things I need to do at home and on the road without having to carry a ton of crap with me, or get a second, smaller computer.

I don't think there are too many super-thin notebooks that can easily serve as desktop replacements. Besides, if I wanted something to take with me to take notes on, store contacts, and things like that, I'd get a PDA. It's much lighter, and syncs better with my main computer.

You may have your reasons for getting a notebook like that other than the Apple notebooks, but Apple's notebooks lead the way in notebook design and technology. The Aluminum PowerBooks (as well as the iBooks) are amazingly durable, and Apple was the first to bring DVD burners, 17" screens, FireWire, and wireless networking to the world of laptops (just to name a few things...) The ultra-portable notebook market is relatively small, because not many people are looking for an underpowered, de-centralized computer as their main machine. Maybe as a second computer, but there aren't too many. Not many people know how to rip their CD's to their hard drive, and you can only rip so many before it fills up. I have a 40gb HD right now, and it's full to the brim with my video projects, music, and applications.

Besides, Apple's notebooks aren't really made to compete with the no-optical drive ultra thin portables. They're made to be as thin and light as possible with all the features you would want or need.

patrick0brien
May 20, 2004, 07:01 PM
[QUOTE=dopefiend]Uh....You are incorrect.QUOTE]

-dopefiend

Well, it's happened before! How long has the 12PB been unseated?

johnnyjibbs
May 20, 2004, 07:03 PM
The 12" PowerBook (my computer) is so small and light anyway that it's hardly a chore to carry round. It's only 4.6 pounds. Yours may only weigh 2-3 pounds but the external drive you carry round must bring the total weight to more than the 12" PB. Its size is limited by the screen limite and the full size keyboard. Sure, it could be ever so slightly thinner but it's hardly what I call a thick notebook. It's got a good price and it does everything you want it to.

So why doesn't Apple give you a choice? Because they believe that a quality computer requires a certain number of minimum features to be functional, and one of those is a full size keyboard and another is an optical drive. So you won't see any underpowered, ultra-expensive, featureless ultra-notebooks from Apple in the near future.

My 12" PowerBook is ultra-portable. I take it everywhere with me. And I have the features to go with it.

Soc7777777
May 20, 2004, 07:09 PM
-Soc7777777

If I were you I'd have done some research before pulling the market research card out of your hat. The 12"PB's are very difficult to keep on the shelves. Remember, even to this day, the 12"PB is the smallest, lightest full function notebook computer on the market. Only required out-of-the-box peripheral is the power cube, which, in itself, is more portable than any of my PC bricks.

It's just a matter of physics, you want a DVD burner, Wireless, Full-size keyboard, USB, DVI, FireWire, RJ-45, RJ-11, the 12"PB is as small as anything can get. And the PB has one more port that the fullfunction definition: FireWire.

I can't wait to see what Apple will do when the 1.5" and 1" drives get affordable :O

Sure, there is a market for the machines you refer to, and it appears that you are one of them, but it's not as bg as the business travelers who cannot afford to chase external components about.


i think the point your completely misunderstanding, is that i think the current powerbooks are GREAT for what they are meant for... i just think everyone (well a good number) at this website hear a suggestion/criticism of apple and they immediately go into defense mode and start shutting down all suggestions....

ONCE AGAIN, i NEVER said that the current models need revisions or changes, i'm suggesting an ADDITION... and for those who think that there isnt a market for ultraportables, you are completely wrong, ibm has done AMAZING with their x30s and x40s and dells 300m has done very well also... there is a reason companies are putting reasearch into making their computers as small as possible, and that is because people are buying them (even without the drives)... all im saying is that the addition of a powerbook mini product would bring a new group of people to apple and their far supperior apps and OS... this group of people isnt even looking at apple because their isnt a product to match their needs...

final note: read my lips, i like the 12" powerbook, but it is the same argument for making an ipod mini, the ipod was a good size for anything you wanted to do, but they offered a smaller version and people ate it up (i know this is a loose comparison, but it still is an interesting point of view)

Kwyjibo
May 20, 2004, 07:18 PM
Well after you get done with your basic econ class, why don't you delve into business strategies.

Your asking apple to adopt a focus strategy and work toward accodomating a very niche market. I goto a large university, most students who buy laptops get regualr sized or clunky pc laptops. People who saw my twelve in powerbook thought it was tiny. Over the course of the year i'd estimate i saw atleast 500 different people with laptops, like out on their desk, at a library or at a coffee shop. ONE , JUST ONE was a 10" sony subportable with the tiny camera. So don't lecture me that students demand these machines which is obviously not as apparent as you imagine. I'm sure some people would like these for easy of travel at work and to sync with a desktop computer but they would not be using them as a primary work machine whereas the average student does.

also people way feature sets as a whole not typically by themselves as you seem to think which is the point everyone else is making. and consumer demand isn't quite as fickle as you mention. I would have thought that someone buying an ipod mini at 4gb would desire a lower price, but apple can't take enough preorders for that.

Sir_Giggles
May 20, 2004, 07:21 PM
Yeah, I think it's pretty ghey to have an ultra-light ultra-thin notebook that sacrifices an optical drive, firewire and modem ports. The new IBM x41 is like .7" thin at one point, but loses all functionality that Apple has with their pb laptop line. An extra pound and .2" extra thickness is not going to kill you if it means you have all the functionality that you'd get from your desktop computer.

Perhaps Apple can somehow shrink their motherboard to the size of a MiniDisc as what Sony has achieved on one of their notebook lines. That would be ultra cool, and could probably shave .3" off the 12" PB and make it 1/2 lb lighter. My only wish for the 12" PB is if they could make it as thin as the 17", that would be perfect.

tamara6
May 20, 2004, 07:29 PM
You could be right, Apple might be missing out on a considerable amount of revenue by not making tiny portables that are missing things like optical drives. I guess we'll know they think this market is big enough to go after when they come out with them.

Personally, I think they should consider a tablet notebook. They are just the sort of cool innovation that Apple should have been the first to introduce. Now they've been around for a couple of years and Apple still hasn't made one. Probably because the market is not just not big enough.

I'm guessing that right now Apple is more concerned with just getting a G5 into any size/weight powerbook.

mkrishnan
May 20, 2004, 07:31 PM
Well after you get done with your basic econ class, why don't you delve into business strategies.

Hmmm...in Soc777777's defense, there apparently is a big enough market for IBM and Dell to go after it. :( But I think you are right that the vast majority of ultraportable users are not: students, home users, SOHO users, etc. They are predominantly business or (maybe?) gov't workers who have very heavy travel schedules. For them it absolutely makes sense. And probably the kind of work they do doesn't need an on-the-go optical drive.

But I think the question is...if Apple made such a thing, would anyone besides Soc buy it? I tend to reject that there are all that many non-business buyers of ultraportables, so I think you have to ask in terms of the biz buyer.

Would IT departments really give a PB to travelling users, when the rest of the network is PC? Would travellers at companies where the criteria to use Apple on the desktop are actually met be able to live with the ultraport compromise?

Of course, I personally was drawn to the 12" apples *because* of how Apple worked the compromise. I wanted a small laptop but didn't want any external pieces beyond the power brick (a very nice one at that).

Personally I think this compromise seems to work much better for Apple's target market, although if they had an additional ultraportable, who knows? Besides which, looking at Apple's mix of desktops to laptops and so on, it seems hard to say they're really not doing this right. My impression is that their ratio is the envy of most of the Windows market....

Soc7777777
May 20, 2004, 07:36 PM
Well after you get done with your basic econ class, why don't you delve into business strategies.

Your asking apple to adopt a focus strategy and work toward accodomating a very niche market. I goto a large university, most students who buy laptops get regualr sized or clunky pc laptops. People who saw my twelve in powerbook thought it was tiny. Over the course of the year i'd estimate i saw atleast 500 different people with laptops, like out on their desk, at a library or at a coffee shop. ONE , JUST ONE was a 10" sony subportable with the tiny camera. So don't lecture me that students demand these machines which is obviously not as apparent as you imagine. I'm sure some people would like these for easy of travel at work and to sync with a desktop computer but they would not be using them as a primary work machine whereas the average student does.

also people way feature sets as a whole not typically by themselves as you seem to think which is the point everyone else is making. and consumer demand isn't quite as fickle as you mention. I would have thought that someone buying an ipod mini at 4gb would desire a lower price, but apple can't take enough preorders for that.

here is the problem here, most students who bought their computers bought them BEFORE they went to school, and they DO NOT buy new computers every year or two...so the computers you were looking at were ranging from 1-4 years old, and the ultraportable market has just started to take off, you call it a niche market, yet sony makes enough money in it to focuse their research on it... you cannot argue that its too small of a market to worry about when sony and dell and ibm do excellent in the market, AND apple already has like 1.5-3 percent of market share and 5-7 percent of computers in use due to their greater longevity, the thing about apple is once you go apple its impossible go to back to pcs, so why wouldnt apple try to take advantage of a market that they could dominate and get those wealthy students and busnessmen to use the apple ultra portable and maybe buy a powermac to go with it and hold down homebase... but anyway, ultaportables WERE a niche market, but just wait, they are becoming more popular

GiantsFan
May 20, 2004, 07:43 PM
i'm a student and i love my new 12" pb. i researched other laptops before i decided on the apple. it costs waay more money to configure pc laptops to be thin but with "same" specs as the 12", ie 60 gig drive, built in ethernet, builtin wireless. i also like that macos x is based on unix and i just install the developer package and i can code on it. anyways, some of those thin and mobiles from dell n other companies have bad performance (reading the reviews by ZDnet). Why are you on this forum if you do nothin but hate on apples?

Soc7777777
May 20, 2004, 07:49 PM
i think apples strategy of attracting students is a great strategy b/c like i said before, once you go apple, you never go back...

i also think that there should be mabye a first time buyers discount also, or maybe the first time you buy an apple you get the applecare free, or half off or something like that to encourage people to switch...

also offering more of a slection would help also (although they really do a good job)

the last thing i would like to say is that i think apple should run a promotion to inform people that the "incompatability of macs" is a myth and that the new apples are compatable in everywhere anyone can think of... to many of my friends when i told them i was thinking of getting an apple said "eww, apples arent compatable with anything and are overpriced"... two myths that apple needs to address...

finally i would just like to say that garage band would have to be the most fun application to just play with that i have ever used (thank you apple store in MO)

i just think that too many people in this site (95 percent or so mac users) tend to believe that what they want is what everyone wants... but you are the people who have already switched so something about the laptops attracted you to buy them instead of windows machines... the people who are looking for ultraportables dont look at apple so no apple users are ultraportable fans... so that is why we could poll this site and 99 percent would disagree and say that no one wants an ultraportable...

eventually i imagine that those mini dvd disks that some dvd camcorders use will be the standard for optical drives (i do not know much about those disks, but i do think that people would want an optical drive it if were that small, me included)

btw ive used my cdrw/dvd drive 2wice since i bought my computer (2 months)

apple does a good job, im just giving suggestions

Apple of my eye
May 20, 2004, 07:50 PM
As soon as anyone types on the mini-keyboard of one of those "smaller laptops" they soon realize an immense sense of frustration. This post would be peppered with typos if I was using one of those mini keyboards. The 12" is amazing and uses a near full sized keyboard (that fills the entire width of the notebook!)

Soc7777777
May 20, 2004, 07:54 PM
Why are you on this forum if you do nothin but hate on apples?


THIS IS THE REASON THAT THIS SITE IS HARD TO POST SUGGESTIONS ON... I NEVER IN THIS ENTIRE POST SAID THAT I THINK APPLES ARE POOR COMPUTERS OR THAT THEY NEED AN "IMPROVEMENT", I JUST SUGGESTED AN ADDITION... WOW... OBVIOUSLY THIS GUY CANT READ, BECAUSE I HAVE STATED MANY TIMES THAT I LOVE APPLES... I WILL OWN ONE IN 2 YEARS... ALSO THE PERFORMANCE ON THESE PCS GET BAD REVIEWS BECAUSE THE PEOPLE BUY THEM GET A WHOLE BUNCH OF PREINSTALLED SOFTWARE FROM DELL OR COMPAQ OR SONY THAT SLOWS THE COMPUTER AND THEY DONT KNOW HOW TO REMOVE THE SOFTWARE... ANOTHER REASON FOR APPLE TO OFFER AN ULTRAPORTABLE, BECAUSE THEY COULD DO IT BETTER!!! DANG THIS SITE IS FRUSTRATING SOMETIMES....

Sun Baked
May 20, 2004, 08:03 PM
http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12951&stc=1

What's with all the CAPS in this thread? Doesn't help the argument.

Though it is a common tactic of those darn flaming trolls.

dopefiend
May 20, 2004, 08:04 PM
Though it is a common tactic of those darn flaming trolls.[/SIZE]

Takes one to know one :p

Apple of my eye
May 20, 2004, 08:04 PM
Soc7777.....I don't think you are Apple bashing, but I think the market would be better for an Apple PDA or Tablet Computer rather than a mini notebook. :) I love these heated forums.

Soc7777777
May 20, 2004, 08:24 PM
Soc7777.....I don't think you are Apple bashing, but I think the market would be better for an Apple PDA or Tablet Computer rather than a mini notebook. :) I love these heated forums.

yeah me 2... haha i love heated forums.. i just thing that tablets will die off b/c they are hard to navegate with while using the touch screen, and then i dont really see any use to the touch screen, and when using it in normal mode, i is a mini notebook

also the ibm x40 has about the same size keyboard as the apple

Soc7777777
May 20, 2004, 08:31 PM
ok since everyone here seems to love the idea of an optical drive, i just wanted to know WHILE TRAVELING, what do you do with your internal drives that a program like alcohol 120 percent woulndt fix (and maybe with a small removable flash drive)????

i say this because with alcohol 120 i never use my cd drive except to install stuff... so i dont need cds for games or anything like that.... and a 60 gig hard drive is plenty to store a bunch of cd images on (use about 10-15 gig for that)

so what does everyone use it for?

parrothead
May 20, 2004, 08:32 PM
THIS IS THE REASON THAT THIS SITE IS HARD TO POST SUGGESTIONS ON... I NEVER IN THIS ENTIRE POST SAID THAT I THINK APPLES ARE POOR COMPUTERS OR THAT THEY NEED AN "IMPROVEMENT", I JUST SUGGESTED AN ADDITION... WOW... OBVIOUSLY THIS GUY CANT READ, BECAUSE I HAVE STATED MANY TIMES THAT I LOVE APPLES... I WILL OWN ONE IN 2 YEARS... ALSO THE PERFORMANCE ON THESE PCS GET BAD REVIEWS BECAUSE THE PEOPLE BUY THEM GET A WHOLE BUNCH OF PREINSTALLED SOFTWARE FROM DELL OR COMPAQ OR SONY THAT SLOWS THE COMPUTER AND THEY DONT KNOW HOW TO REMOVE THE SOFTWARE... ANOTHER REASON FOR APPLE TO OFFER AN ULTRAPORTABLE, BECAUSE THEY COULD DO IT BETTER!!! DANG THIS SITE IS FRUSTRATING SOMETIMES....


Don't blame the site too much. A lot of people dont read all the posts and many people will only look at what you called the thread. "apple laptops missing the mark." You should have known that a statement like that would result in angry comments from people on a Mac site. If you didnt want to get flamed then maybe you should have said I really like Apple laptops, but....

In my opinion the ultraportable laptops and regular laptops are two very different animals. Trying to say that compare the two is like trying to compare the towing capacities of a Porsche 911 and a Dodge Ram. Both are good cars for what they are meant to do, but no one is going to be towing a boat with a 911 and you aren't going to be able to do 180mph in a Ram.

When you are a relatively small company like Apple, sometimes it is best to limit what you produce to a few quality models instead of trying to cover all the bases. If an ultra-portable, but less capable computer is what you wanted, then I can't fault you at all for not getting a Mac. But I can fault you for being naiive enough to think you wouldn't get flamed after starting the thread like you did. Enjoy your new tiny computer, meanwhile I will build my arm muscles lugging my heavy 15" albook around. :D ;)

Soc7777777
May 20, 2004, 08:34 PM
Don't blame the site too much. A lot of people dont read all the posts and many people will only look at what you called the thread. "apple laptops missing the mark." You should have known that a statement like that would result in angry comments from people on a Mac site. If you didnt want to get flamed then maybe you should have said I really like Apple laptops, but....

In my opinion the ultraportable laptops and regular laptops are two very different animals. Trying to say that compare the two is like trying to compare the towing capacities of a Porsche 911 and a Dodge Ram. Both are good cars for what they are meant to do, but no one is going to be towing a boat with a 911 and you aren't going to be able to do 180mph in a Ram.

When you are a relatively small company like Apple, sometimes it is best to limit what you produce to a few quality models instead of trying to cover all the bases. If an ultra-portable, but less capable computer is what you wanted, then I can't fault you at all for not getting a Mac. But I can fault you for being naiive enough to think you wouldn't get flamed after starting the thread like you did. Enjoy your new tiny computer, meanwhile I will build my arm muscles lugging my heavy 15" albook around. :D ;)

oh i knew i was going to get a rise out of people, and i did that for the sole purpose of keeping the posting going for a while... i was just hoping for logical arguements... and mostly i have... i may disagree with most, but save the person i ranted at, they all had logic to back them up

dopefiend
May 20, 2004, 08:36 PM
and you aren't going to be able to do 180mph in a Ram.


Unless that Ram has a good ole viper engine in it with some crazy gearing! :D

Sun Baked
May 20, 2004, 08:41 PM
Unless that Ram has a good ole viper engine in it with some crazy gearing! :DGet a Dakota instead... http://www.bankspower.com/Banks_Sidewinder.cfm

http://www.bankspower.com/index6_images/sidewinder-rotation.jpg

parrothead
May 20, 2004, 08:50 PM
Get a Dakota instead... http://www.bankspower.com/Banks_Sidewinder.cfm

http://www.bankspower.com/index6_images/sidewinder-rotation.jpg


Yeah, yeah, I knew somebody would find something like that. :D :D

wide
May 20, 2004, 09:01 PM
As soon as anyone types on the mini-keyboard of one of those "smaller laptops" they soon realize an immense sense of frustration. This post would be peppered with typos if I was using one of those mini keyboards. The 12" is amazing and uses a near full sized keyboard (that fills the entire width of the notebook!)

Not true, only in some cases. The IBM X series has an incredible keyboard, and the keyboards Dell uses on their ultaportables aren't half bad. I have used both the Apple iBook (G3 and G4) and the Apple PowerBook (all sizes) and I am comfortable saying that the X series keyboard is as good if not better than the PowerBook keyboards.

7on
May 20, 2004, 09:09 PM
I agree with the previous poster about not seeing a small form factor in use. My aunt has an old small form factor from 99 or so. She is the co-owner of Sonoco (Offshore catering) and received it from someone.

Anyway, small form factors have been around for a while. And other than the one my aunt had I haven't seen any. Apple can't make a laptop and then only sell like 500. Same with the Cube. Someone could have said the same about small-form factor computers (they still do) however with Apple being such a small company they couldn't sell enough to make good profit out of it. So they canned it. Apple knows this.

Fukui
May 20, 2004, 11:04 PM
If apple took the iBook, stretched the screen an extra inch, trimmed the borders around the LCD (like the PB), chopped the weight in half, and halved the thickness, all while keeping the Optical Drive, I think everyone here would want it more than what is available now...nothing wrong with improvements is there?

I think some people are too defensive!

Sun Baked
May 20, 2004, 11:19 PM
If apple took the iBook, stretched the screen an extra inch, trimmed the borders around the LCD (like the PB), chopped the weight in half, and halved the thickness, all while keeping the Optical Drive, I think everyone here would want it more than what is available now...nothing wrong with improvements is there?One of the major feature about the current constuction method is that the LCD and/or backlight is easily replaceable by the user.

In the PowerBook 15/17 the LCD panel is bonded together, meaning you'll have to pay to replace the entire panel -- or send it off to a specialist that can open the panel.

thehuncamunca
May 20, 2004, 11:32 PM
it would be really nice if apple could make more user servicable parts it should take 1 2 mins to add a new HD or switch optical drives you can do this on almost all PC laptops but not on any of the new apple laptops, which is in my opinion a BIG design flaw

One of the major feature about the current constuction method is that the LCD and/or backlight is easily replaceable by the user.

In the PowerBook 15/17 the LCD panel is bonded together, meaning you'll have to pay to replace the entire panel -- or send it off to a specialist that can open the panel.

Mr. G4
May 20, 2004, 11:40 PM
... to create a cd image and a virtual drive to mount this image
Mac OS always done it that way.

i just know from experience that i hardly ever lug around my external combo drive, it goes with me, but never leaves the laptop bag... its there just incase i need to install someting or view someting

What is the point of having an ultra small and ultra light computer if you have to carry extra stuffs with you all the time it defeats its purpose itsn't it?

bastardx
May 20, 2004, 11:51 PM
ok since everyone here seems to love the idea of an optical drive, i just wanted to know WHILE TRAVELING, what do you do with your internal drives that a program like alcohol 120 percent woulndt fix (and maybe with a small removable flash drive)????

i say this because with alcohol 120 i never use my cd drive except to install stuff... so i dont need cds for games or anything like that.... and a 60 gig hard drive is plenty to store a bunch of cd images on (use about 10-15 gig for that) so what does everyone use it for?
Um, well, just for the record, such a program really isn't needed in OS X. Since you can create a new image from a device, using Disk Utility, you can store images of CDs, DVDs, etc, on your hard disk, and use them, mount by double-clicking on the image. I do like the fact that all Apple laptops do have Optical Drives in them, because I watch movies on my Powerbook on occasion, and I like the ability to burn disks when I need to, since not all computers can natively use flash drives yet.

jtgotsjets
May 20, 2004, 11:56 PM
what are the two biggest demographics that mac sells to?

ill tell you one thing
neither uses ultra-thin laptops.

Mr. G4
May 21, 2004, 12:04 AM
I agree with the previous poster about not seeing a small form factor in use. My aunt has an old small form factor from 99 or so. She is the co-owner of Sonoco (Offshore catering) and received it from someone.

Anyway, small form factors have been around for a while. And other than the one my aunt had I haven't seen any. Apple can't make a laptop and then only sell like 500. Same with the Cube. Someone could have said the same about small-form factor computers (they still do) however with Apple being such a small company they couldn't sell enough to make good profit out of it. So they canned it. Apple knows this.

We know that Apple priced it too high...that's why they got a bad press.
Now those cube are collector items.
Plus, just look at Shuttle, the PC cube, they are making a killing

hulugu
May 21, 2004, 12:06 AM
ok so this is my rant about apple and the ONLY reason i did not buy an apple a month ago when i bought my computer...
2. smaller everything, longer battery life
The second trend is where apple is missing the mark... it seems that dell and ibm and sony and toshiba and gateway are all producing ultraportable notebooks that do very well...all those notebooks seem to be in the 2.5lbs - 4lbs and about 1" tall with the lid shut... apple does not have an offering that can comptete with these notebooks in that size range... i think that apple should have added a 1.25 Ghz G4 that was in a much smaller form factor... like a 3lb 12" 1" tall form...this would appeal to the student and business men who are more worried about mobility than power (which is a large percentage of users)

There are two reasons why Apple does not buy ultralight notebooks, the case to which you are referring. First, the market is very narrow for ultralights, you can find sales figures I'm sure to back this up, but it is a minority of users. So for Apple to build their own version of the Ultralight, they would be an even smaller portion of the market. The R&D costs alone might never be overcome by sales for such a small number of machines. Now it might be possible that more people would by Apple's Ultralight, but even that would be a very small number of people.
The reason the market is so tiny compared to the growing laptop market is because Ultralight machines entail compromises that may not be worth the 3.1 pound weight.
SONY
Now Sony has the TR3, which is a 3.1 pound machine with a 10.6" screen, 1Ghz Pentium M, on chip shared video, a CD-R/DVD and a 3.0-5.0 hour battery life, a nubbin (electrostatic touchpad), and is 1.37 inches thick. Oh and it's got a little camera.
Compare this to the 12" Powerbook, which weighs 4.6 pounds, has a 12" screen, a 1.33Ghz G4, a real video card, the Superdrive, a real touch-pad, a 3.0-5.0 hour battery life, and 1.18 inches.
So for 1.5 pounds, I get more power, a real touch-pad (I personally hate the nubbins) the ability to burn DVDs, more screen real-estate and it's slightly thinner. Oh and the 12" Powerbook costs 1899 while the Sony costs 2299.
DELL
Now Dell has their own Ultralight notebook the Inspiron 300m, which weighs 2.9 pounds and is .9 inches thick. This machine has a 12" screen, a 1.25Ghz Pentium 4, and is 2054 after pricing it out. I couldn't find specific data on battery life, and I'm not sure if the CD-R/DVD bay is external or not, but that gives you an idea of the main Ultralight market.

Apple can't build a computer for everyone, they can't build a Powerbook that is the lightest, thinest, most powerful, most useful (drives, wireless options, connectivity options), without sacrificing somewhere and neither can anyone else. Now, the Sony might be a good machine, the camera could be neat if it were comparable to the iSight, but it's really not much lighter than the 12" Powerbook, but is smaller and less powerful.
Now, I can understand a buyer shrugging off the Powerbook for a much lighter Fujitsu Lifebook because ounces are important—I go rock climbing and I know people who cut off the end of their toothbrush to save a few ounces. That's entirely your decision, but the Powerbook is a very nice machine.

hulugu
May 21, 2004, 12:09 AM
What is the point of having an ultra small and ultra light computer if you have to carry extra stuffs with you all the time it defeats its purpose itsn't it?


This always drives me crazy, have you seen the power bricks on some of the PC laptops? Some of them are a whole other pound of gear, with extra cords, a thick heavy brick, and more cords. Now compare that to the iBook and Powerbook powerbricks which are elegant and light. That matters when it's in your bag all day.

dopefiend
May 21, 2004, 12:10 AM
Im willing to bet those ultra thins still out perform a 12 inch PB hulugu ;)

Soc7777777
May 21, 2004, 12:26 AM
There are two reasons why Apple does not buy ultralight notebooks, the case to which you are referring. First, the market is very narrow for ultralights, you can find sales figures I'm sure to back this up, but it is a minority of users. So for Apple to build their own version of the Ultralight, they would be an even smaller portion of the market. The R&D costs alone might never be overcome by sales for such a small number of machines. Now it might be possible that more people would by Apple's Ultralight, but even that would be a very small number of people.
The reason the market is so tiny compared to the growing laptop market is because Ultralight machines entail compromises that may not be worth the 3.1 pound weight.
SONY
Now Sony has the TR3, which is a 3.1 pound machine with a 10.6" screen, 1Ghz Pentium M, on chip shared video, a CD-R/DVD and a 3.0-5.0 hour battery life, a nubbin (electrostatic touchpad), and is 1.37 inches thick. Oh and it's got a little camera.
Compare this to the 12" Powerbook, which weighs 4.6 pounds, has a 12" screen, a 1.33Ghz G4, a real video card, the Superdrive, a real touch-pad, a 3.0-5.0 hour battery life, and 1.18 inches.
So for 1.5 pounds, I get more power, a real touch-pad (I personally hate the nubbins) the ability to burn DVDs, more screen real-estate and it's slightly thinner. Oh and the 12" Powerbook costs 1899 while the Sony costs 2299.
DELL
Now Dell has their own Ultralight notebook the Inspiron 300m, which weighs 2.9 pounds and is .9 inches thick. This machine has a 12" screen, a 1.25Ghz Pentium 4, and is 2054 after pricing it out. I couldn't find specific data on battery life, and I'm not sure if the CD-R/DVD bay is external or not, but that gives you an idea of the main Ultralight market.

Apple can't build a computer for everyone, they can't build a Powerbook that is the lightest, thinest, most powerful, most useful (drives, wireless options, connectivity options), without sacrificing somewhere and neither can anyone else. Now, the Sony might be a good machine, the camera could be neat if it were comparable to the iSight, but it's really not much lighter than the 12" Powerbook, but is smaller and less powerful.
Now, I can understand a buyer shrugging off the Powerbook for a much lighter Fujitsu Lifebook because ounces are important—I go rock climbing and I know people who cut off the end of their toothbrush to save a few ounces. That's entirely your decision, but the Powerbook is a very nice machine.

first of all i have the dell 300m and i paid 1280 for it and its a 1.2 ghz pentium M not pentium 4 huge difference... that included 4 yr onsite warrentee

also, i dont lug around my case everywhere

my computer is small and light enough that i just treet it like a book with a small hard sleve and throw it in my backpack or just carry it...

mj_1903
May 21, 2004, 12:52 AM
First of all, please drop the caps, I find it slightly immature to be yelling at someone, whether on a board or in real life.

As for the topic of the thread, I have faith in Apple. There are a lot of experienced and educated marketers at Apple who do a lot of market research both externally and by listening to their customers. If they saw a market for an ultra-light laptop, they would build one, I can assure you.

Case in point, the 12" and 17" PowerBook's. Both required a market before Apple would build them.

The reasoning behind this is simply because of the risks involved. It costs a fair bit of money to do the R&D to create a new laptop, especially one that does not use existing hardware. The PowerBook's really all use the same components, they don't have to do heavy engineering work to design those models. Designing an ultra-light laptop would require many engineering hours and it would be a recurring fee as they tried to compete with the likes of Dell and IBM.

Simply put, I have faith in the paid employees of Apple to make the correct decision. There is no reason for me to say "Apple should incorporate RAID into all PowerBook's because it will sell more to businessmen" because Apple are not going to hear nor will they pay attention to a person who knows little/nothing about making or marketing a new laptop.

On the other hand, Apple are only to happy to listen to software developers like myself when it comes to improving Mac OS X, so possibly you should do an engineering course and marketing and then be an armchair CEO. :)

hulugu
May 21, 2004, 01:16 AM
first of all i have the dell 300m and i paid 1280 for it and its a 1.2 ghz pentium M not pentium 4 huge difference... that included 4 yr onsite warrentee...my computer is small and light enough that i just treet it like a book with a small hard sleve and throw it in my backpack or just carry it...

I'm sorry it is a Pentium M, not a Pentium 4. Big difference in performance and power-usage I agree, not a big difference in keystrokes though.:)

Im willing to bet those ultra thins still out perform a 12 inch PB hulugu

Anecdotal evidence not being evidence aside, I was not impressed with the Sony a buddy of mine bought.
The Pentium M is quite the chip, but on-chip video has always bothered me; benchmarks may prove that this doesn't matter.
I'm not saying the Sony isn't a good machine, I'm saying the Apple Powerbook flirts with Ultralight status, but has fewer compromises.
Hey Soc77...how much does the power-brick for the Inspiron weigh? And what is an Inspiron anyway, I never seen one, maybe it's a mythical creature. Who names these things? :D

Sir_Giggles
May 21, 2004, 01:27 AM
Suppose Apple created an ultralight portable thats under 2lbs and .5" thick, and you'll end up with something like this Sony model.

But as a reviewer said, its for looks and ain't really practical in the real world.

http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20040513.html

Gherkin
May 21, 2004, 07:17 AM
Way to start off on the wrong foot Soc7777777. If you really, really believe, like you said, that Apple's current line of laptops are great and would be complimented with ultraslim models, why did you scream in caps in the topic that Apple laptops are missing the mark? Apparently they are not missing the mark, they just need more options. So why demand that Apple's laptops are inadequte if you went on in the topic to say the current lineup is great?

Why not start his topic off as "Do you think there is an ultralight market Apple could cater to?" Or maybe "Thinner Powerbooks to compliment the current lineup?"

Honestly, people need to learn how to argue on the internet. Everyone needs to stop being such asses and learn how to discuss stuff in a civilized manner.

tamara6
May 21, 2004, 08:12 AM
You asked how much people use their drive while travelling. Actually, I use it more while on the road. When I'm travelling, I am with my family, including my kids. We play DVDs for them in the car and at hotels, just to kill the boring time between when we leave home and when we get to where we are going.

Now, when I am working I typically take my powerbook from home to work, about 15 minutes away. On any typical day I don't use my drive at all. But there have been maybe 4 or 5 times over the past year when some PC user has wanted to give me a lot of data or images (and in one case his photo CDs), and I had to explain that my Pismo couldn't read them anymore. Most of the time I took the CDs home. One guy actually had a server that he could put his stuff on and then let me download it. Basically, not only was it really inconvenient (for me and my colleagues), it was also kind of embarrassing.

I'm not saying there is no market for computers without optical drives. I'm just responding to your question/challenge about people actually using the optical drives they have. I lived without a built-in drive for about a year. It was a pain. I'm glad to have a new powerbook now, with a funtional optical drive. I feel like a full citizen again.

Krizoitz
May 21, 2004, 08:35 AM
Ok, I've read this thread and wanted to point out a few things.

1) Soc77 if you start a thread with an inflammatory title you are going to get upset responses. If that is what you are looking for thats sad, its called trolling. If its not then don't start a thread with an inflammatory title and then complain about the results.

2) As a college student who has gone through three computers in 5 years (by choice, I've upgraded) and who has seen a plethora of laptops that people have bought throughout that time, I concur with the opinion that this wouldn't have any sizable market on college campuses. Students don't mind hauling around an extra pound especially as most people I know use their optical drives alot. As some people have mentioned playing movies is a big hit here. Also people burn CDs of stuff (some of it illegal MP3's and software most likely) all the time. Not to mention games. Alot of games you can't copy the disc image, or atleast not easily.

3) This one bothers me not just about this post but about other posts as well. APPLE IS NOT OUT TO SCREW THE CONSUMER. Everyone always complains about how Apple isn't doing this because they don't care or not making that product because they are stupid, but honestly do you really think that a company would AVOID making a profitable product? What possible reason would they have to do that?
Apple does market research Believe me they do. They don't just sit there and think, "gee I wonder what products we can avoid making that the consumers will want, we sure don't like making money."
I gauruntee you there are people whose sole job at Apple is to explore current and possible new markets to see where best to spend their money. If Apple had reason to believe that an ultra-light portable market would be worth investing in they would do so. But Apple only has a certain amount of resources and they are going to focus those resources in areas where they cna be the most succesful and make the most money. Thats good buisness.
I don't know if people have forgotten but Apple used to be spread really thin when it came to models. They had more styles of computer than you could shake a stick at. Seriously I remember this big ol chart my CS teacher in high school had. Steve came back and we have simplified things alot. This is a good thing.
Yes its possible there is a market out there for ultra-lights. And yes I'm sure Apple could come out with a fantastic model if they wanted to, but right now it just doesn't make sense for them to do so. Buisness 101 don't waste your money/time/resources on a product that won't give you a good return on your investment.

gekko513
May 21, 2004, 09:36 AM
... I NEVER IN THIS ENTIRE POST SAID THAT I THINK APPLES ARE POOR COMPUTERS OR THAT THEY NEED AN "IMPROVEMENT", I JUST SUGGESTED AN ADDITION...
I see your point and I too think that some people are getting a bit more defensive on behalf of Apple than necessary.

I would just like to add something to our economics class. When Apple adds a new product to their line, it also comes with a large research, development and design cost. To justify this cost, they need to have a high enough demand.

Let's say the market for ultraportables are 10% of the regular laptop market. Then Apple can expect the PowerBook Mini to sell less than a third in numbers of each PowerBook model.

Maybe this isn't enough to make up for the development cost. If the market for ultraportables turns out to be large enough, then I'm sure Apple will add an ultraportable to the line.

denm316
May 21, 2004, 09:46 AM
THIS IS THE REASON THAT THIS SITE IS HARD TO POST SUGGESTIONS ON... I NEVER IN THIS ENTIRE POST SAID THAT I THINK APPLES ARE POOR COMPUTERS OR THAT THEY NEED AN "IMPROVEMENT", I JUST SUGGESTED AN ADDITION... WOW... OBVIOUSLY THIS GUY CANT READ, BECAUSE I HAVE STATED MANY TIMES THAT I LOVE APPLES... I WILL OWN ONE IN 2 YEARS... ALSO THE PERFORMANCE ON THESE PCS GET BAD REVIEWS BECAUSE THE PEOPLE BUY THEM GET A WHOLE BUNCH OF PREINSTALLED SOFTWARE FROM DELL OR COMPAQ OR SONY THAT SLOWS THE COMPUTER AND THEY DONT KNOW HOW TO REMOVE THE SOFTWARE... ANOTHER REASON FOR APPLE TO OFFER AN ULTRAPORTABLE, BECAUSE THEY COULD DO IT BETTER!!! DANG THIS SITE IS FRUSTRATING SOMETIMES....

I think reviewers from ZDNET or CNET know how to uninstall the the useless software that is pre-installed.

Coolvirus007
May 21, 2004, 10:27 AM
Don't post in caps!

Soc7777777
May 21, 2004, 11:04 AM
Maybe this isn't enough to make up for the development cost. If the market for ultraportables turns out to be large enough, then I'm sure Apple will add an ultraportable to the line.

This arguement and others that are similar i agree with... apple doesnt think that the market is big enough... yet...

smaller is the future (probibly with some type of optical drive though), but when a cd drive is made that is small enough, light enough, and quit enough to fit in the ultraportables we have talked about, then dell, sony, etc will have in advantage in that market when it arrives because they are already used to dealing and developing tiny computers

mouchoir
May 21, 2004, 11:18 AM
first off, don't start your threads in caps, it just annoying

second this are pretty baseless points,
all of their smaller notebooks have cd drives and reasonable hard drive sizes. Battery power can be improved but that will probably be solved into the future.

they work around a great compromise between all of these great features which creates a successful line.apple has had a very protable computer for a long time in their 12" models. first with the iBooks' and then last year with the 12" powerbook which I own. An extra pound should not matter to the average consumer. And before you give me the do you know speech, i'm a college student whos sucessfully carried books and my 12" powerbook with me and had no troubles. Maybe its time to quite complaning about a pound and a few ounces.

If you're going to complain about people using CAPS, you should probably try running a spell check over your own post to make sure there are no mistakes...

Unless 'protable' was the the intended word and you want someone to 'quite complaning'.

'it just annoying'

What are you studying at college?

Soc7777777
May 21, 2004, 12:38 PM
here is an interesting point of view... simple, but intereseting...ok everyone here seems accept three facts

1. apple produces a good product

2. apple's marketers do a good job with marketing/promotion

3. apple has a small market share

now 3 is not debatable.... its a fact

my question is how can apple have a good product and do good promotion and still not have computers fly off of the shelves at the same rate that dell does...

it seems to me that good marketing + good product = good sales

but according to people here, apples equation reads....

good marketing + good product = bad sales (bad in comparison to other companies) so something is wrong, either they do not have a good product, or they do not have good marketing...

so lets compare apple to dell for a bit...

i believe (like everyone here) that apple produces a better computer than dell

i believe also (maybe not like everyone here) that apple does a poor job promoting their product...

for the average pc user who does not do research on a computer and just looks a gigahertz and listens to what dell tells them, they have no reason at all to try an apple... i mean honestly, (in their eyes) 1500 dollars is alot to spend to 'test' an apple out to see if it is better... they would rather stay safe and go with what they know...

seriously, all i see on the idiot box (TV) is a bunch of ipod ads, (itunes included), but NOTHING about computers from apple... apple should actively try to disprove all the myths about macs.. like...

1. macs are incompatable with everything, and therefore are only for the music and video editing community

2. Macs cannot network with pcs

3. Macs are not powerfull machines... just built to look impressive for rich people

4. Macs are overpriced (this is a combo of everything though... people think low compatablity means they wont pay as much)

5. Ghz is the most important measure of speed on a computer

Ok so these are arguments that i have actualy heard for not buying a mac... from real people... i try to argue, but its useless because they dont hear anything from apple telling them differently... they see apples' silence and acceptance... somone here said that the ultraportable market is a niche market (that can be argued both ways), but to the entire community of computers apples ARE a niche market...

final solution... i think apple should run a marketing campaign like they have for itunes to dispel some myths about apples... this would spread knowledge through some pc users and maybe get alot of them to switch, (because alot of them hate windows)

blue&whiteman
May 21, 2004, 12:58 PM
THIS IS THE REASON THAT THIS SITE IS HARD TO POST SUGGESTIONS ON... I NEVER IN THIS ENTIRE POST SAID THAT I THINK APPLES ARE POOR COMPUTERS OR THAT THEY NEED AN "IMPROVEMENT", I JUST SUGGESTED AN ADDITION... WOW... OBVIOUSLY THIS GUY CANT READ, BECAUSE I HAVE STATED MANY TIMES THAT I LOVE APPLES... I WILL OWN ONE IN 2 YEARS... ALSO THE PERFORMANCE ON THESE PCS GET BAD REVIEWS BECAUSE THE PEOPLE BUY THEM GET A WHOLE BUNCH OF PREINSTALLED SOFTWARE FROM DELL OR COMPAQ OR SONY THAT SLOWS THE COMPUTER AND THEY DONT KNOW HOW TO REMOVE THE SOFTWARE... ANOTHER REASON FOR APPLE TO OFFER AN ULTRAPORTABLE, BECAUSE THEY COULD DO IT BETTER!!! DANG THIS SITE IS FRUSTRATING SOMETIMES....

anyone who types in all caps should be banned. period. its quite rude. is this your first time on the internet?

Fukui
May 21, 2004, 01:08 PM
final solution... i think apple should run a marketing campaign like they have for itunes to dispel some myths about apples... this would spread knowledge through some pc users and maybe get alot of them to switch, (because alot of them hate windows)
Oh, they hate windows alright, but unfortunately, those same people have been so desensitized by the virus/pop-up/bug-ridden eXPerience, that they think thats just the way computers should be....I once brought my G4 cube (my first mac) to a friends office, and while he was a windows user, he said Steve Jobs is a genius(!), but when asked if he would use a mac, he said he's too used to windows...and there lies the problem. Its hard to advertise an OS on TV, which is why apple is opening stores in high traffic areas, and seems to be working...even if it is slowly doing it...give it time...notice that a great number of people buying iPods are younger? I seem to notice a lot of younger people using macs too...give it time. Those same students will be executives and CEO's in the future....

Soc7777777
May 21, 2004, 01:15 PM
Oh, they hate windows alright, but unfortunately, those same people have been so desensitized by the virus/pop-up/bug-ridden eXPerience, that they think thats just the way computers should be....I once brought my G4 cube (my first mac) to a friends office, and while he was a windows user, he said Steve Jobs is a genius(!), but when asked if he would use a mac, he said he's too used to windows...and there lies the problem. Its hard to advertise an OS on TV, which is why apple is opening stores in high traffic areas, and seems to be working...even if it is slowly doing it...give it time...notice that a great number of people buying iPods are younger? I seem to notice a lot of younger people using macs too...give it time. Those same students will be executives and CEO's in the future....

oh i completely agree, but i think an ad or two could go a long way... but yeah i do notice alot of younger users going to apple.... actually i think that apple should start a promotion where a first time student buyer should get the student discount PLUS a free applecare warrentee... because get a pc user to buy a mac once, and he will again and again even if he doesnt get the discount

tamara6
May 21, 2004, 01:16 PM
Well, now you've changed the subject. The new title should be "Apple should market their computers and OS better." No one will disagree with you, this has been a major source of frustration for Mac users for many, many years.

As to why people don't just flock to the Mac, I don't know. I work at a university where the main computer tech guy hates Macs - practically foams at the mouth when he even looks at one. Our chair recently updated the office computers (G3s and Quicksilver G4s) with new Dells. Why? Because the tech guy "has nothing but trouble with Macs" but presumably knows how to fix pcs quickly and easily. I don't think any amount of ads would have prevented this new purchase.

Many, many folks around the world make their decisions based on the opinions of "experts" that tell them that pcs are better. Ads don't seem to play a role in the way the "experts" think, because they have "lived life" and simply "know" that pcs are better. I don't know how you make these people change their minds. But if Apple could, *then* they'd see an increase in market share.

Earendil
May 21, 2004, 01:39 PM
AND apple already has like 1.5-3 percent of market share and 5-7 percent of computers in use due to their greater longevity,...
...but anyway, ultaportables WERE a niche market, but just wait, they are becoming more popular

1.5-3 percent, but they have 7-9 percent of the portable market according to whoever does the computer base numbers. These numbers were released in Jan 2004. Wish I still had the link, but you'll have to trust me ;)

I have a 15" 1in thick 4.9 lbs Powerbook on me. It's so loaded my PC geekin' friends can't stand it. I carry in it a backpack and sometimes I check to make sure it's actually in there. And it's not like I'm a big man, I only weight 125lbs :D I took in with me on a 6 week back packing trip across Central America. I burned everything from CDs to DVDs while on the road. I used everything from my internal modem to ethernet to wireless to get myself on the web so I could upload picture/video/website. In a scenario where everything was carried on my back did I say to myself "gee, I wish I could ditch components to make this computer 1lbs and .3in lighter/smaller.

As someone else noted, to make a Notebook super light and thin with todays technology you have to sacrifice a LOT of that technology. Cutting edge tech, all in one able to do everything computers is what Apple is ABOUT. To rip everything out of the computers just to make it lighter would be against what Apple is about. They could also rip everything out of the eMac and sell it cheaper. but do they do that? No, because that's not what Apple as a company is about.

Also, I'm betting everyone buying "ulta portables" already has a different computer that they can actually USE as a computer. In that case there REALLY isn't a point to Apple selling them. What % of the 1.5-3.0 Apple base are going to buy an Ultra Portable? People don't switch to Apple and give up the windows would because it's 1lbs and .3in smaller :(

I hear Barbi's are selling well right now too :rolleyes:

Tyler
Earendil

musicpyrite
May 21, 2004, 02:11 PM
THIS IS THE REASON THAT THIS SITE IS HARD TO POST SUGGESTIONS ON... I NEVER IN THIS ENTIRE POST SAID THAT I THINK APPLES ARE POOR COMPUTERS OR THAT THEY NEED AN "IMPROVEMENT", I JUST SUGGESTED AN ADDITION... WOW... OBVIOUSLY THIS GUY CANT READ, BECAUSE I HAVE STATED MANY TIMES THAT I LOVE APPLES... I WILL OWN ONE IN 2 YEARS... ALSO THE PERFORMANCE ON THESE PCS GET BAD REVIEWS BECAUSE THE PEOPLE BUY THEM GET A WHOLE BUNCH OF PREINSTALLED SOFTWARE FROM DELL OR COMPAQ OR SONY THAT SLOWS THE COMPUTER AND THEY DONT KNOW HOW TO REMOVE THE SOFTWARE... ANOTHER REASON FOR APPLE TO OFFER AN ULTRAPORTABLE, BECAUSE THEY COULD DO IT BETTER!!! DANG THIS SITE IS FRUSTRATING SOMETIMES....

DUDE! It's called the caps lock, turn it OFF! Typing in all caps doesn't make you any more persuasive.

(Included is a pic of the caps lock, incase you forgot what it looks like ;) )

DGFan
May 21, 2004, 02:26 PM
im thinking maybe its time that you go take a economics class and learn that companies are succesfull by offering what consumers want, and if a consumer wants a 2.99lb computer like i have now (enough consumers), then it becomes smart for the company to produce that product... im not complaining about existing lines, i think they are great, i just think they need an ultraportable offering such as toshibas 2.4 lb r100 or my dell 300m 2.99lb or the new sony which is supposed to get down to 2.2lbs... all im saying is that these computers have a strong demand (hence all the companies offering them) and that apple would be smart to make an offering like that

so dont tell me my points are baseless, because your logic without merit

Here are a few facts for you:
- The top selling laptops are large, heavy, desk hoggers for coporate use (because they are fast and inexpensive yet fairly portable)
- Apple currently sells light, thin laptops that many consider "too expensive"

Your solution to growing Apple's market share seems to be convincing Apple to put more focus on an incredibly small portion of the market where it already enjoys great success as opposed to focusing on the largest part of the market where Apple has no products at all.

Yes, I think your logic is without merit.

Show me a study indicating that huge number of people would switch to Apple if only Apple would come out with a 12" powerbook with no cd drive. Then we can talk.

DGFan
May 21, 2004, 02:31 PM
so what does everyone use it for?

Step 1: Take digital photographs
Step 2: Download photographs from CF card to computer
Step 3: Burn a CD copy of the photographs to give to someone

All done while on vacation
:)

DGFan
May 21, 2004, 02:33 PM
Unless that Ram has a good ole viper engine in it with some crazy gearing! :D

You do know that the Viper was basically a thought, "hey, let's see what we could do with this 10 cylinder Ram engine in a sports car" right?

I get to see all the new toys at work. I work in the same small building as the Chrysler Performance Vehicle group.
:D

DGFan
May 21, 2004, 02:36 PM
This always drives me crazy, have you seen the power bricks on some of the PC laptops? Some of them are a whole other pound of gear, with extra cords, a thick heavy brick, and more cords. Now compare that to the iBook and Powerbook powerbricks which are elegant and light. That matters when it's in your bag all day.

It's the pricing equivalent of a product selling for $5 with $7.50 for shipping and handling. By taking some of the necessary hardware out of the laptop they make it appear lighter. But the overall weight is still as high (or higher).

wide
May 21, 2004, 02:49 PM
Soc777777777777777777777, I agree with you on that Apple should make a smaller computer. They should compress the slot-loading drive and make a laptop under an inch thin and under three pounds in weight. Unfortunately, these computer will never become cheap because Apple insists that the quality of their machines is very, very high. Also, due to Apple's small market share, I believe designing such a computer might be suicide for their company--making a small and inexpensive computer would be very demanding of their resources and would have a very large risk. Most people would opt for an iBook or PowerBook that would give them more power rather than a slower, similarly priced miniBook. Once Apple gains more market share, maybe 10 to 15 percent, this would be a great idea for them, but for now I think it would be asking too much of their already limited consumers.

Another issue that just crossed my mind after writing the above: what chip would they use? Both Intel and AMD have multiple chips (Athlon Mobile, Pentium-M, Pentium 4, Athlon (regular), Pentium 4-m, Pentium 3-m, Celeron, and Celeron-M, and thats just off the top of my head). Unfortunately for Apple, they only have the G4 and the G5. G5s in notebooks are currently out of the question, and even in the PowerBooks, overheating is an issue, so making a thinner computer with the PowerBook chip (G4) would essentially be a piece of paper that can reach around 373 Kelvin. Not a good idea.

Perhaps Motorola's souped-up G4 may solve this problem, though. I do predict the new Moto chip in the next line of PowerBooks, maybe MWSF 2005...

dopefiend
May 21, 2004, 03:14 PM
You do know that the Viper was basically a thought, "hey, let's see what we could do with this 10 cylinder Ram engine in a sports car" right?

I get to see all the new toys at work. I work in the same small building as the Chrysler Performance Vehicle group.
:D


Not to sway this thread off topic extremely, but thats cool, hehe.

Have you been able to see the Tomahawk in person? viper engine -motorcycle!

And you mentioned Chrysler Performance.....What the hell were they thinking with the Crossfire? Bad ass design...low performance! :mad:

DGFan
May 21, 2004, 03:22 PM
Not to sway this thread off topic extremely, but thats cool, hehe.

Have you been able to see the Tomahawk in person? viper engine -motorcycle!

And you mentioned Chrysler Performance.....What the hell were they thinking with the Crossfire? Bad ass design...low performance! :mad:

I don't know where the Tomahawk was made. I certainly never saw it here. Work here is done on the Viper, Dodge (Ram) SRT-10, Dodge (Neon) SRT-4, and the Chrysler (Crossfire) SRT-6. There are also some Prowlers and the like around.

The basic Crossfire was priced too high. It's come down a lot since then and sales have picked up. But it was never really intended to be a performance car. That's what the Crossfire SRT-6 is for. It's got a 330hp supercharged V-6. That will take you to 60 in less than 6 seconds. If you see a Crossfire with a fixed rear spoiler, it's an SRT-6.
:cool:

I am really impressed with the Chrysler 300C. I have a Saab 9-3. It's not a super sports car but it goes 0-60 in about 7.3 seconds. It has punch!! I was behind a 300C with the Hemi at a light a few months ago and I had trouble keeping up with it! It's a stately-looking sedan but boy can it move. I would love to test drive one sometime.

mkrishnan
May 21, 2004, 11:36 PM
I am really impressed with the Chrysler 300C. I have a Saab 9-3. It's not a super sports car but it goes 0-60 in about 7.3 seconds. It has punch!! I was behind a 300C with the Hemi at a light a few months ago and I had trouble keeping up with it! It's a stately-looking sedan but boy can it move. I would love to test drive one sometime.

The 300C's the most affordable Bentley yet! :) As for Saab, I think they need to bring back the Viggens. :p

zach007
May 22, 2004, 12:26 AM
THIS IS MY RESPONSE TO THIS..just kidding.. I just got my first apple/laptop powerbook G4 1.5ghz.. I don't really see the need for any lighter or thinner.. 1.1inch thick compared to a little less than an inch thick? does it really take up that much more room, i guess you could put an extra pamphlet or something in your bag, but thats about it. And yes its 5 pounds, but its not like im carrying out of a bag all day. To me, poundage and thinnage isnt really that big of a deal.. as long as its not, say.. 4 inches thick and 9 pounds.. Although this is my first laptop Ive seen other ones and I am completely satisfied.

patrick0brien
May 22, 2004, 01:58 AM
I NEVER IN THIS ENTIRE POST SAID THAT I THINK APPLES ARE POOR COMPUTERS OR THAT THEY NEED AN "IMPROVEMENT", I JUST SUGGESTED AN ADDITION

-Soc7777777

Ah. I see the issue here. Your points are valid. But when you start a thread with anything that could be taken as inflammatory, persons can immediately go into defense mode - and have difficulty listening to your words as they will feel them to be just as biased.

By the way, you didn't suggest an addition overtly. Mac users are so used to disdain that that will be the feeling they get given the opportunity to make the assumption.

You made some good points, but they were buried in strong emotions, of yours and others. I would suggest you aproach your posting with a measure of diplomacy. Then your points would be considered with a more even hand.

Soc7777777
May 22, 2004, 02:07 AM
You made some good points, but they were buried in strong emotions, of yours and others. I would suggest you aproach your posting with a measure of diplomacy. Then your points would be considered with a more even hand.

so true... my first post was very factual... (well in a sense that it wasnt emotion based) and i got emotional responses, and i responeded with more emotion... haha... easier said than done when talking about a subject that you have so much passion for...

haha btw my strategy for naming the post such an insulting name was to draw attention... i just didnt know that people considered the name of the post more than the content... if i named my post bush sucks, then posted about how good bush was, then bush supporters shouldnt get defensive, but just see that the name was to draw attention (and it did, 80 posts is really good for a thread started by a user and not based on news, rumors, or any type of facts, just opinions)

dbirider
May 22, 2004, 03:17 AM
You have to understand that since you dont use a cd drive, doesnt mean that everybody doesnt use one. I personally dont know of one person who could live without one. People who buy laptops usually want it to be there portable work station. having to carry around a cd or dvd drive doesnt seem to fit in with the portability.

Im sure it would be great to see lighter and thinner 12" 15" and 17" powerbooks (and ibooks), but i doubt that apple is going to take steps backwards like putting in a tiny hard drive, lowering the amount of ram that can be put in, taking out the cd/dvd drive, and removing ports just to make an as light as possible laptop. I think as time goes on and technology increases, apple will slowly update there lines to be more powerful AND light...

Why dont you call up apple, write a letter, or write an email and ask about your idea. It would get alot more done then just complaining on a message board alone.

ginner
May 22, 2004, 06:24 AM
I think the original poster is trying to suggest that choice and flexibility are a good thing. I accept that the R&D for Apple would be too expensive but I reject the arguement that a CD drive is absolutely necessary to take with you (as either built in or external), it's not, once you've installed your programs it's quite possible to leave the thing at home and just take the main unit, without any of the additional peripherals, docking stations or the power supply unit.

I'm a student, in the UK, Apple's portables are too expensive for me to purchase but my ideal laptop would be small, light, with a docking station, with a good battery life when travelling, nice screen resolution to make up for the small screen size and built in WiFi on all models . No internal optical drive, no modem.

I may be a niche market but, at least for the moment, a PC is my only choice.

thatwendigo
May 22, 2004, 09:06 AM
so true... my first post was very factual... (well in a sense that it wasnt emotion based) and i got emotional responses, and i responeded with more emotion... haha... easier said than done when talking about a subject that you have so much passion for...

Actually, you had very little factual content. The only things you said that couldn't be disputed are that some companies have tiny notebooks, that Apple could (in theory) make one, and that they could call it a certain name. The final part of that last point was pretty insulting to Steve Jobs and the Apple corporation, but I think it was more a failed attempt at humor.

Most of what you've done so far is baseless opinion and saying that Apple needs to do something because you want it. Par for the course, but hardly impressive.

haha btw my strategy for naming the post such an insulting name was to draw attention...

It's called trolling, and it's technically against the rules. Read the TOU for the site before you do something like that again.

i just didnt know that people considered the name of the post more than the content... if i named my post bush sucks, then posted about how good bush was, then bush supporters shouldnt get defensive, but just see that the name was to draw attention

I've read the content and I'm not impressed. Others have already done the work of breaking you down and countering your shaky argument, but I thought that I'd chime in and tell you that there's a lot more to presenting a case than doing the equivalent of standing on a street corner and yelling inflamatorry things, only to act surprised when people don't like you. Honestly, did you expect people not to react a certain way when you throw that title up and then proceed to do nothing but attack the PowerBook line's path, with a single line to the contrary?

Later on, I can see that you were pushed towards admitting that you thought the current line was okay. That's great and all, but you could have structured the argument differently and avoided it to begin with. This whole thing has read as if you wanted people to be angry.

(and it did, 80 posts is really good for a thread started by a user and not based on news, rumors, or any type of facts, just opinions)

Wait a minute...

"so true... my first post was very factual..."

Which is it? Factual or opinion?

Soc7777777
May 22, 2004, 11:42 AM
Wait a minute...

"so true... my first post was very factual..."

Which is it? Factual or opinion?

all i was trying to say in the first quote was that it was factual in the sense that it wasnt all emotion... but the overall idea was an opinion and was based on some facts... like dell sony toshiba and those companies are all doing better than apple (in a business sense)

so it all comes down to one fact... apple makes a superior product, but has poor poor sales... thats doing a bad job in marketing whether my suggestion would help or hurt... and you cant say its because people inherently look down upon apple due to the past because people have embraced the ipod quite nicely (b/c apple promoted it)...

Apple //e
May 22, 2004, 12:11 PM
I think the original poster is trying to suggest that choice and flexibility are a good thing. I accept that the R&D for Apple would be too expensive but I reject the arguement that a CD drive is absolutely necessary to take with you (as either built in or external), it's not, once you've installed your programs it's quite possible to leave the thing at home and just take the main unit, without any of the additional peripherals, docking stations or the power supply unit.

I'm a student, in the UK, Apple's portables are too expensive for me to purchase but my ideal laptop would be small, light, with a docking station, with a good battery life when travelling, nice screen resolution to make up for the small screen size and built in WiFi on all models . No internal optical drive, no modem.

I may be a niche market but, at least for the moment, a PC is my only choice.

i agree. give people the option

if you say "i dont need an ultrathin" or "i need an optical drive" or ".5"/lbs is no big deal" then the ultrasmall laptops are not for you

also, these laptops are not aimed at the student market.

they are intended for people who already have desktops and need a really small machine to do simple tasks on the road. students usually dont have a desktop from which to load apps via lan.

i have a 8x10x1" thinkpad that weighs 2.5 lbs. i use it for presentations, slides, showing movies, word, excel, distilling pdf, light pshop, itunes, and internet. i love it and i think even ibooks are too big. the lack of weight is noticable on my thrice fractured collarbone. but if it were my only machine, it would not work out

im sure im not the only person out there that appreciate these machines

iJon
May 22, 2004, 12:31 PM
ok since everyone here seems to love the idea of an optical drive, i just wanted to know WHILE TRAVELING, what do you do with your internal drives that a program like alcohol 120 percent woulndt fix (and maybe with a small removable flash drive)????

i say this because with alcohol 120 i never use my cd drive except to install stuff... so i dont need cds for games or anything like that.... and a 60 gig hard drive is plenty to store a bunch of cd images on (use about 10-15 gig for that)

so what does everyone use it for?
well when im on a plane or trip i dont get to excited about spending a day ripping 9gb dvd's onto my 40gb hard drive, i would rather just slide them in and watch them, WOW what an awesome idea. you mean instead of dedicating my life to alcohol 120 (wtf) i can just use the dvd rom. also, does alcohol 120 burn cd's without the drive, that would be pretty cool as well.

iJon

bousozoku
May 22, 2004, 12:38 PM
Ultraportables have always been meant to appeal to the executive who wants to show up the other people in the office and to take on the road with a plethora of marketing materials.

Does it matter that the keyboards are too small? No, because he can only type with two fingers.

Does it matter that the optical drive is an external add-on? No, because he has a docking station at home and at work so he barely has to connect anything, which is good because he's usually lost doing that.

Ultraportables have been popular in Japan and there was a PowerBook once that fit that niche, made by IBM Japan. If it sold well, would Apple still have one in the market? Of course they would. It would just need to be profitable.

For most of us though, simplicity is the answer. If you have everything in one box, it's certainly more appealing. It is intruiging to me that people who would normally complain about 12 inch LCDs can cope with 10.4 inch LCDs. For executives this is rarely an issue because they don't really work on the machine--they simply present the material. I'm surprised that anyone else would try to use one.

Earendil
May 22, 2004, 12:42 PM
so it all comes down to one fact... apple makes a superior product, but has poor poor sales... thats doing a bad job in marketing whether my suggestion would help or hurt... and you cant say its because people inherently look down upon apple due to the past because people have embraced the ipod quite nicely (b/c apple promoted it)...

No, that is not the only fact that keeps Apple from growing. I will not argue that Apple could do more for marketing, but there is more to it than that.

Take Toshiba for example, have them spin off a new company under a new name without anyone knowing it. Have them sell all of the SAME computers, this time running OSX. Now give those computers the same marketing that Toshiba now enjoys, heck, give them MORE marketing. Do you really think that the same Toshiba's, under a new name running OSX are going to sell just as well as the current line up running windows?

There are a few other facts that lead to Apple not growing.
A: One of the things that Makes Apple so great is also a downside, OSX, it aint Windows.
B: Many people not in the "know" don't know Apple exists, and people not in "the know" are the ones currently buying the bulk of computers.
C: People still have MANY misperceptions concerning Apple computers.

Example: Many people on these boards have told stories about how people commented on their Powerbooks ect on airlines and such. These people thought the Apple computers looked awesome, but preceded to ask - "Which IBM model is that?". They didn't even know what to think of the Apple symbol on the back. Same thing has happened with the iPod, but not so much.

My Girl Friend who happens to not be blond, is one of those people that enjoys knowing lots of stuff, and knows at least a little bit about everything. She isn't a nerd when it comes to computers, but she knows her way around Windows fairly well. She herself thought that Apples could only use a 4 button mouse when I first met her. Today, after letting her use OSX on my PB, she is more than willing to get a Mac the next time around.

It's pretty easy to think that the world views the tech world the way we do, but in reality, they don't. They will buy what they're friends have, and they won't take risks. If they don't see it, they won't buy it. The internet is bring about huge market research before a purchase, but most people don't use that yet. I think with the next generation, and the introduction of the iPod (some of the best marketing money can by IMHO) will will see a slow change in market share over the next 10-30 years.

The fact is most of the major companies could STOP marketing and the user base and word of mouth would carry them for a long time. Anyone ever see Microsoft adds on TV? no. Because they don't need it. The user base carries it's self. When billy joe goes to buy a computer, he's going to buy what timmy down the street has, and more than likely, that is going to be a Widows based machine.

Tyler
Earendil

ps
anyone care to give numbers on what the individual PC manufacturers actually hold in laptop user base? I know Apple has like 7-9%, and I can think of 6 other laptop manufacturers off the top of my head (IBM, Sony, Toshiba, HP, Fuji, Dell) And I know there are many other minor ones (AlienWare?). So if we put Apple at 8% market share, that leaves the other 6 (not counting companies I'm forgetting) at 15.33% a piece. That's not even twice Apples market share. I'd say that seeing as Portable sales are looking up for Apple (not down) that they are doing QUITE well considering mind share and past history. But does anyone have real numbers?

Earendil
May 22, 2004, 12:48 PM
i have a 8x10x1" thinkpad that weighs 2.5 lbs. i use it for presentations, slides, showing movies, word, excel, distilling pdf, light pshop, itunes, and internet. i love it and i think even ibooks are too big. the lack of weight is noticable on my thrice fractured collarbone. but if it were my only machine, it would not work out

im sure im not the only person out there that appreciate these machines

But for the very reason you state is why I don't think it would work out for Apple, where they stand today. As easy as they could try and make it for Windows users, no one is going to by an Apple ultra thin and take it home to their windows box. Why would you do something like that? So that leaves only people in the currently installed Apple base to purchase ultra thins, which I don't think would generate all that many sales.

And does the dress up class of business man really work with anything but black windows notebooks? noooo (at least none of the ones I've seen).

Tyler
Earendil

Apple //e
May 22, 2004, 02:25 PM
But for the very reason you state is why I don't think it would work out for Apple, where they stand today. As easy as they could try and make it for Windows users, no one is going to by an Apple ultra thin and take it home to their windows box. Why would you do something like that? So that leaves only people in the currently installed Apple base to purchase ultra thins, which I don't think would generate all that many sales.

And does the dress up class of business man really work with anything but black windows notebooks? noooo (at least none of the ones I've seen).

Tyler
Earendil

box an external fw powered superdrive with it

a matte black anodized xbook would be sexxxy.

its a small market, but its aimed at the people who make top level decisions

DGFan
May 22, 2004, 03:51 PM
Anyone ever see Microsoft adds on TV? no. Because they don't need it.

Really? I see about five a DAY. Maybe it's because I watch thing like CNBC but every single day I am treated to tv ads with people hugging in offices and having meetings on the top of mountains.

sethypoo
May 22, 2004, 04:13 PM
DUDE! It's called the caps lock, turn it OFF! Typing in all caps doesn't make you any more persuasive.

I think it made him more persuasive.....more people have responded to that post than any other.

Earendil
May 22, 2004, 04:32 PM
Really? I see about five a DAY. Maybe it's because I watch thing like CNBC but every single day I am treated to tv ads with people hugging in offices and having meetings on the top of mountains.

I see many adds for Dell, Intel, and HP, but not Microsoft. Interesting... Maybe because I'm in the NW they don't bother :D

Tyler

Mord
May 22, 2004, 06:00 PM
My Pismo's dvd drive went out about a year ago, so I know what it is like to have a portable with no optical drive. I didn't think it was much fun. Either I had to tote my external combo drive along (bleh!) or explain to people that I'd have to take their cd home and load it there. I felt like a fool.

I'm glad the no optical drive solution works for some people, but for me, the primary reason I bought my new PB was so I'd have a functioning optical drive again.

Just my point of view.

some life for your pb:

http://store.mcetech.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=MTOS&Product_Code=XP2KDVDR2


look at a powerbook then look at a dell if you dont think: wtf i dont want that ugly peice of crap dell you are mentaly unbalenced goodbye