few bad apples unlikely; entire bunch rots

[poopyhead]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5024068/


By Campbell Brown
Correspondent
NBC News
Updated: 7:06 p.m.*ET May*20, 2004

BAGHDAD - With attention focused on the seven soldiers charged with abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison, U.S. military and intelligence officials familiar with the situation tell NBC News the Army’s elite Delta Force is now the subject of a Pentagon inspector general investigation into abuse against detainees.

The target is a top-secret site near Baghdad’s airport. The battlefield interrogation facility known as the “BIF” is pictured in satellite photos.

According to two top U.S. government sources, it is the scene of the most egregious violations of the Geneva Conventions in all of Iraq’s prisons. A place where the normal rules of interrogation don’t apply, Delta Force’s BIF only holds Iraqi insurgents and suspected terrorists — but not the most wanted among Saddam’s lieutenants pictured on the deck of cards.

These sources say the prisoners there are hooded from the moment they are captured. They are kept in tiny dark cells. And in the BIF’s six interrogation rooms, Delta Force soldiers routinely drug prisoners, hold a prisoner under water until he thinks he’s drowning, or smother them almost to suffocation

[Neserk]

violence begets violence... it is not surprising when those who have been abused and have had that abuse justified and even praised are going to turn around and pass it along.

[Frohickey]

violence begets violence... it is not surprising when those who have been abused and have had that abuse justified and even praised are going to turn around and pass it along.

Huh? What does that have to do with the pMSNBC article?

[skunk]

Huh? What does that have to do with the pMSNBC article?
I think the point is that if you train soldiers with brutality, after a while that's all they know. The level of inhumanity which is seen to be acceptable in these places surely tells you SOMETHING?

[Neserk]

I think the point is that if you train soldiers with brutality, after a while that's all they know.

Exactly.

[zimv20]

and the torture bus rolls on...

[Frohickey]

I think the point is that if you train soldiers with brutality, after a while that's all they know. The level of inhumanity which is seen to be acceptable in these places surely tells you SOMETHING?

History is replete with long lost and dead civilizations that were not brutal when it came to war and protecting its own interests.

You do not win wars and survive by hoping that your enemy would *NOT* be brutal. Therein lies the problem with Neserk's analysis of the situation.

[Taft]

History is replete with long lost and dead civilizations that were not brutal when it came to war and protecting its own interests.

You do not win wars and survive by hoping that your enemy would *NOT* be brutal. Therein lies the problem with Neserk's analysis of the situation.

OK, then how about not letting average soldiers, with little to no training in the handling of prisoners and interrogation, handle detainees and other POWs? How about training the people who do handle the prisoners in the Geneva convention, proper interrogation techniques and allow the process to be overseen to prevent human right's abuses?

If we are prosecuting a war, I have no problem with brutality on the battlefield. But brutality should not extend into the prisons we are using to hold POWs. The average soldier, who is trained only in combat and army procedure, should not have access to the prisoners.

Any disagreements with that statement?

Taft

[skunk]

History is replete with long lost and dead civilizations that were not brutal when it came to war and protecting its own interests.

You do not win wars and survive by hoping that your enemy would *NOT* be brutal. Therein lies the problem with Neserk's analysis of the situation.
This is where we differ. Well, one place among many, probably. You seem to have a "Thousand Year Reich" delusion (I'm not imputing any Nazi thinking here). Empires come and go. More brutality is not the answer. Your way is not necessarily the best. Be gracious in decline, not vicious.

[takao]

OK, then how about not letting average soldiers, with little to no training in the handling of prisoners and interrogation, handle detainees and other POWs? How about training the people who do handle the prisoners in the Geneva convention, proper interrogation techniques and allow the process to be overseen to prevent human right's abuses?

i have to agree with your comments but the quite more disturbing thing is that 2 of the soldiers which now face punishment for prisoner abuse _had_ already been working as prison guards in america before they joined the army.....

[Taft]

i have to agree with your comments but the quite more disturbing thing is that 2 of the soldiers which now face punishment for prisoner abuse _had_ already been working as prison guards in america before they joined the army.....

I hadn't heard that. Well, I guess that just adds to the case for greater oversight of military prisons.

Taft

[Frohickey]

If I remember correctly, Military Police units and Infantry units are among the first to be activated during a conflict. This is what happened during the 1st Gulf War. I remembered coworkers being activated, before I had to finally go to active duty.

Infantry units to do the fighting, and MP units to do the prisoner handling. Of course, there are other support units to go along, such as Water Purification units, Maintenance units, etc.

Most of the cops that I knew were also doing MP or Infantry duties in the National Guard or Reserve. Not saying that all MPs are civilian cops. But civilian cops usually know how to deal with prisoners/suspects since that is what they do in their regular jobs.

[Taft]

If I remember correctly, Military Police units and Infantry units are among the first to be activated during a conflict. This is what happened during the 1st Gulf War. I remembered coworkers being activated, before I had to finally go to active duty.

Infantry units to do the fighting, and MP units to do the prisoner handling. Of course, there are other support units to go along, such as Water Purification units, Maintenance units, etc.

Most of the cops that I knew were also doing MP or Infantry duties in the National Guard or Reserve. Not saying that all MPs are civilian cops. But civilian cops usually know how to deal with prisoners/suspects since that is what they do in their regular jobs.

That does make sense. Nonetheless, the "assignment of military duty by civilian job held" is not exactly an assurance of proper training and behavior, is it? Also, if I'm not mistaken, many (all?) of the soldiers implicated in the abuse scandle are NOT MPs. So obviously the MPs are not the only ones handling the POWs in Iraq.

I think the armed forces could stand a review of how assignments to military prisons are made, how those soldiers assigned to the prisons are trained, and what procedures are in place to prevent human rights abuses.

Taft

[Frohickey]

That does make sense. Nonetheless, the "assignment of military duty by civilian job held" is not exactly an assurance of proper training and behavior, is it? Also, if I'm not mistaken, many (all?) of the soldiers implicated in the abuse scandle are NOT MPs. So obviously the MPs are not the only ones handling the POWs in Iraq.

I think the armed forces could stand a review of how assignments to military prisons are made, how those soldiers assigned to the prisons are trained, and what procedures are in place to prevent human rights abuses.

Taft

Never said it was. And being a civilian cop does not mean you are a paragon of law and order either. Its just a data point that I would like to present here. That the predisposition makes it 'less likely'.

One thing that I did notice was that not many of the police supervisory positions were held by drilling reservists or National Guardsman. These would be the watch commanders, police lieutenants and police captains. These would be the people responsible for the proper functioning of the police station and the precinct.

[skunk]

One thing that I did notice was that not many of the police supervisory positions were held by drilling reservists or National Guardsman. These would be the watch commanders, police lieutenants and police captains. These would be the people responsible for the proper functioning of the police station and the precinct.
In essence, then, you are saying that the lack of preparedness was both systemic and avoidable. This is exactly why it was ESSENTIAL to enlist the UN to help out. But your control-freak of a Defence Secretary thought he could wing it. Like on the peace-keeping front. Co-operation is everything. Remember Sesame Street?

[numediaman]

U.S. admits to secret interrogation site in Baghdad

Friday, May 21, 2004 Posted: 6:37 PM EDT (2237 GMT)

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- As hundreds of detainees were released from Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad, a senior U.S. official Friday confirmed that a previously undisclosed U.S. military interrogation facility at or near Baghdad International Airport does indeed exist.

The official said the site was run in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and all detainees were afforded their rights under that international document.

"That's not to say somebody didn't get their head dunked in the water," he said . . .

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/21/iraq.main/index.html

"head dunked in the water" -- ha, ha, ha. Boy, those guys really crack me up.

In other news:

Soldier Who Failed to Return to Iraq Is Convicted of Desertion
By MARIA NEWMAN

Published: May 21, 2004

Florida National Guard sergeant who failed to return to his unit in Iraq after a leave home, saying he no longer believed in the war, was found guilty today of desertion by a military jury in Fort Stewart, Ga., a military official said.

Staff Sgt. Camilo Mejia was found guilty of one charge of desertion by a jury of four officers and four enlisted soldiers today, said Dina McKain, a public affairs officer at Fort Stewart.

He faces up to a year in prison, and Ms. McKain said he will be sentenced later today after a hearing in which character witnesses are testifying on his behalf.

Sergeant Mejia, 28, served six months in Iraq, went home to Miami on a two-week furlough in October, and failed to return to his unit when it ended.

In March, he turned himself in to military authorities in Boston, where he had been in hiding, and said he wanted to be considered a conscientious objector. Peace activists have taken up his cause.

I feel sorry for the kid. But, of course, you can't desert and not expect the military to come after you. Afterall, that's why there is Canada.

[skunk]

a senior U.S. official Friday confirmed that a previously undisclosed U.S. military interrogation facility at or near Baghdad International Airport does indeed exist.

The official said the site was run in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and all detainees were afforded their rights under that international document.
I'll bet the ICRC is having a good laugh at that one. How could it be secret and also within the GC? Impossible. This bunch are taking the piss.

[Frohickey]

In essence, then, you are saying that the lack of preparedness was both systemic and avoidable. This is exactly why it was ESSENTIAL to enlist the UN to help out. But your control-freak of a Defence Secretary thought he could wing it. Like on the peace-keeping front. Co-operation is everything. Remember Sesame Street?

What makes you think asking for the help of the UN would have changed anything? We already have the help of the British, Japanese, and others that were already willing to help out.

The UN gets its resources from member nations. If the member nations do not want to help, they will not send their help. So, what is gained?

[Frohickey]

I feel sorry for the kid. But, of course, you can't desert and not expect the military to come after you. Afterall, that's why there is Canada.

Used to be that desertion in time of war is grounds for immediate firing squad.

Execution by firing squad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_by_firing_squad)
The method is also the supreme punishment employed by courts martial for crimes such as desertion such as in the execution of Private Eddie Slovik by the U.S. Army in 1945 (Slovik was the first US soldier executed for desertion since the Civil War).

Hmm... desertion is not at all uncommon, even WW2!
21049 soldiers were sentenced for desertion during WWII, 49 to death, but only Slovik's death sentence was carried out.

[skunk]

Used to be that desertion in time of war is grounds for immediate firing squad.
Yes, but is this a time of war?

[skunk]

What makes you think asking for the help of the UN would have changed anything? We already have the help of the British, Japanese, and others that were already willing to help out.

The UN gets its resources from member nations. If the member nations do not want to help, they will not send their help. So, what is gained?
Moral cover.

[zimv20]

What makes you think asking for the help of the UN would have changed anything? [...] So, what is gained?
how about accountability?

[skunk]

So, what is gained?
Legitimacy.

[skunk]

So, what is gained?
Troops.

[skunk]

So, what is gained?
Friends.

[skunk]

So, what is gained?
Consensus. A way forward. Trained peacekeepers. Respect. Humility.

I could go on. But you get the idea. ;)

[skunk]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1222348,00.html

US general linked to Abu Ghraib abuse

Leaked memo reveals control of prison passed to military intelligence to 'manipulate detainees'

Julian Borger in Washington
Saturday May 22, 2004
The Guardian

Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, head of coalition forces in Iraq, issued an order last October giving military intelligence control over almost every aspect of prison conditions at Abu Ghraib with the explicit aim of manipulating the detainees' "emotions and weaknesses", it was reported yesterday.

The October 12 memorandum, reported in the Washington Post, is a potential "smoking gun" linking prisoner abuse to the US high command. It represents hard evidence that the maltreatment was not simply the fault of rogue military police guards.

The memorandum came to light as more details emerged of the extent of detainee abuse. Formal statements by inmates published yesterday describe horrific treatment at the hands of guards, including the rape of a teenage Iraqi boy by an army translator.

At present, one prison guard has pleaded guilty to abuse of detainees, and six more are facing courts martial. A separate inquiry is underway into the role of military intelligence, but it is unclear whether any private contractors implicated will face prosecution.

The October memorandum also calls into question General Sanchez's sworn testimony to the US Senate. At a hearing this week of the Senate armed services committee, he was questioned about an order he had given in November placing Abu Ghraib prison under the command of a military intelligence brigade. He insisted the order referred only to the defence of the jail.

"All of the other responsibilities for continuing to run the prison for logistics, training, discipline and the conduct of prison operations remained with the 800th [military police] Brigade commander," General Sanchez told senators.

He specifically rejected the findings of the official report into the Abu Ghraib abuse by Major General Antonio Taguba, who concluded that military intelligence officers had told the guards "to set the conditions" for interrogations.

However, according to the leaked memorandum, General Sanchez had explicitly given military intelligence interrogators control over the "lighting, heating ... food, clothing and shelter" of the detainees being questioned.

It also called for military intelligence officials to work more closely with the military police guards at the prison to "manipulate an internee's emotions and weaknesses".

The New York Times yesterday reported that the military intelligence brigade that took control of the interrogation centre was deployed direct from Afghanistan and brought with it harsh procedures it had developed there. The US military deems US military prisons in Afghanistan to be outside the jurisdiction of the Geneva conventions because it defines al-Qaida and Taliban fighters as "unlawful combatants".

In the Washington Post report, one detainee, Kasim Hilas, describes the rape of an Iraqi boy by a man in uniform, whose name has been blacked out of the statement, but who appears to be a translator working for the army.

"I saw [name blacked out] ****ing a kid, his age would be about 15-18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets. Then when I heard the screaming I climbed the door because on top it wasn't covered and I saw [blacked out], who was wearing the military uniform putting his dick in the little kid's ass," Mr Hilas told military investigators. "I couldn't see the face of the kid because his face wasn't in front of the door. And the female soldier was taking pictures."

It is not clear from the testimony whether the rapist de scribed by Mr Hilas was working for a private contractor or was a US soldier. A private contractor was arrested after the Taguba investigation was completed, but was freed when it was discovered the army had no jurisdiction over him under military or Iraqi law.

Another inmate, Thaar Dawod, describes more abuse of teenage Iraqis. "They came with two boys naked and they were cuffed together face to face and Grainer [Corporal Charles Graner, one of the military policemen facing court martial] was beating them and a group of guards were watching and taking pictures from top and bottom and there was three female soldiers laughing at the prisoners," he said.

According to most inmate statements, Cpl Graner ran the night shift at Abu Ghraib's interrogation wing, and dealt out the worst of the abuse.

Ameen al-Sheikh testified that: "The night guard came over, his name is Graner, open the cell door, came in with a number of soldiers. They forced me to eat pork and put liquor in my mouth. The second night Graner came and hung me on the cell door. I told him I have a broken shoulder. I am afraid it will break again ... the doctor told me 'don't put your arms behind your back'. He said : 'I don't care.' Then he hung me to the door far more than eight hours."

Mr al-Sheikh's testimony suggests military intelligence interrogators were also directly involved in the abuse. When he fails to identify a picture of a man suspected of giving him some pistols, he said the interrogators "point a weapon to my head and threaten they will kill me; sometime with dogs and they hang me to the door allowing the dogs to try to bite me."
Heads must roll. This cannot stop with the grunts.

[poopyhead]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1222348,00.html


Heads must roll. This cannot stop with the grunts.

I agree
as I read more and more I become yet more disgusted with my country, I hope and pray that after this entire ordeal, the rapes, killings, molestations, humiliations, attempted forced christian conversions, and over all inhumanity
that the tens to thousands of americans who perpetrated these crimes along with those in the administration who turned a blind eye will be throughly admonished and harshly punished by some form or world court. I feel that this is possibly americas darkest hour since slavery, tonight I hang my head in shame for being an american.

[skunk]

I agree
as I read more and more I become yet more disgusted with my country, I hope and pray that after this entire ordeal, the rapes, killings, molestations, humiliations, attempted forced christian conversions, and over all inhumanity
that the tens to thousands of americans who perpetrated these crimes along with those in the administration who turned a blind eye will be throughly admonished and harshly punished by some form or world court. I feel that this is possibly americas darkest hour since slavery, tonight I hang my head in shame for being an american.
Don't. Just work like crazy till November!

[blackfox]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1222348,00.html


Heads must roll. This cannot stop with the grunts.
A dirty sanchez?...

[numediaman]

Heads are rolling, so to speak. Those that came forward to report abuse are having their careers ended.

THE OCCUPATION OF IRAQ: TIPSTER DISCIPLINED

Sergeant `flagged' for telling news media about prison abuses

By Mike Dorning
Washington Bureau

May 22, 2004

WASHINGTON -- The Army on Friday disciplined a military intelligence analyst who told The Tribune about the mistreatment of a 16-year-old boy and other abuses by interrogators at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

Sgt. Samuel Provance, 30, said his battalion commander instructed him to turn in his top-secret clearance and was informed he would be reassigned.

Provance said he also was told his record is "flagged," meaning he cannot receive promotions, awards or honors. He added that he was warned he might be subject to further disciplinary action for discussing abuses at the prison with the news media.

"It's in reference to what's happened--for going public," the sergeant said. "It's not unexpected."

Now stationed in Germany, Provance recently completed an assignment at Abu Ghraib, outside of Baghdad. He also gave on-the-record interviews describing interrogators' roles in the abuses to ABC News, the Washington Post and The Associated Press.

A lawyer familiar with the case said Provance also was ordered Friday not to discuss abuses at the prison with other government agencies, which the lawyer said appeared intended to bar him from giving information to congressional investigators.

Army spokesman Paul Boyce said he could not discuss the sanctions, saying that Pentagon policy is to keep personnel actions private.

But he said Provance is considered a material witness in the investigation of abuses at Abu Ghraib prison and has been admonished not to discuss matters that could come up in future testimony to a court-martial.

This week Provance described how interrogators abused the 16-year-old to end his father's resistance to questioning. The teen was stripped naked, thrown in the open back of a truck, driven around on a cold night, splattered with mud and then presented to his father, he said.

The father then broke down and cried after the incident, and told interrogators he would tell them what they wanted, Provance said.

The Tribune site requires registration -- therefore, no link.

[zimv20]

what does it say when the person who told of the crime is disciplined more severely than the person who committed the crime?

[skunk]

what does it say when the person who told of the crime is disciplined more severely than the person who committed the crime?
US Justice is blind?

[numediaman]

I would highly recommend listening to this week's edition of "On The Media". The online version includes an MP3 of the show that can be downloaded.

The story that should be of interest in the first one of the show:

Don't Shoot the Translator
In a closed session with the 9/11 Commission, a former FBI translator named Sibel Edmonds reportedly made an explosive charge. She described documents that crossed her desk in the summer of 2001, detailing plans for an Al Qaeda attack on U.S. skyscrapers with hijacked airplanes. Her allegations were picked up by news media throughout the world, but hardly at all in the U.S. And the Justice Department is doing its best to keep it that way. It has blocked Edmonds from testifying in a 9/11-related lawsuit, and this week took the rare step of retroactively classifying records about her given to Congress two years ago. Bob talks to washingtonpost.com staff writer Jefferson Morley about the Edmonds story.

Link here: http://www.wnyc.org/onthemedia/

[trebblekicked]

what does it say when the person who told of the crime is disciplined more severely than the person who committed the crime?

"military justice is to justice what military music is to music" - groucho marx

[zimv20]

"military justice is to justice what military music is to music" - groucho marx
:-)

hadn't heard that one before

[numediaman]

"military justice is to justice what military music is to music" - groucho marx

A great quote, no doubt about it. And perfect to this situation.

But here is one that I think has a great deal of relevance to the war, overall:

When force is necessary, it must be applied boldly, decisively, and completely. But one must know the limitations of force; one must know when to blend force with a manuever, the blow with an agreement.

Anybody know the source? (No cheating. That is, no googling!)

[Frohickey]

Link here: http://www.wnyc.org/onthemedia/

She's a hottie! :p