PDA

View Full Version : Jaguar in August?


arn
Jul 4, 2002, 12:57 PM
CNet also (http://news.com.com/2100-1040-941394.html) provides information about Jaguar's release:

The new version, code-named Jaguar and officially known as Mac OS X 10.2, is now expected to ship in early August, barring unforeseen difficulties, said sources familiar with Apple's product strategy.

Jaguar appears to sport a "toned down" Aqua interface... as reported by Railhead Design (http://www.railheaddesign.com/) and ThinkSecret (http://www.thinksecret.com)

King Cobra
Jul 4, 2002, 01:18 PM
So, there you go, folks. Jaguar is 10.2, according to the passage. It won't be called 10.3, 10.5 or XI. It will apparently be 10.2.

I just want a faster interface. On my G3 (man, I am too used to G3s in the iBooks) Firewire iBook the computer takes around 2 minutes to start up with 10.1.5, and another 2 minutes for OS 9 to load. On the Cube at home OS X and OS 9 load in about 90 seconds flat. (And don't tell me 33MHz makes that much of a difference.)

TeraRWM
Jul 4, 2002, 01:29 PM
I'd like to know what people think of the new Aqua style interface. Personally when I first saw the toned down version I was very disappointed and unhappy with it. Now of course it is a trade-off, less complicated interface=faster acting system.

I think Apple should allow the user to customize the UI for high-end or low-end Aqua so people like me that like the original and don't mind the slow-down can change back to the way it was in 10.1.5.

What do you think?

Megaquad
Jul 4, 2002, 01:29 PM
finally,they fixed aqua
thank you apple!

AlphaTech
Jul 4, 2002, 01:33 PM
I just have to wonder if they will be offering it for either 0$ or $20 for people that purchased systems this year, or that came with 10.1.4 or newer. Or since Jaguar was announced. I still have the OS coupons that came with my new TiBook, so I am covered there. If they are going to offer it for free, I will have to get to wherever they are doing that. If only at Apple stores, then I will get my mother to go there on that day (she lives under 10 minutes from one). Otherwise, I have a snowball's chance in hell of getting to the Apple store while they still have the free copies.

boobers
Jul 4, 2002, 01:41 PM
god i hope so..but i highly doubt it..Apple programmers gotta eat something!..seriously Apple can't afford to pay coders for many months to just give away a major OS update..i wish it was the case, but its not..i'm sure they will charge something for it..hopefully no more than 20 bux though.

Megaquad
Jul 4, 2002, 01:42 PM
mm..i dont believe it,i think it'll come out in september

AlphaTech
Jul 4, 2002, 01:43 PM
Update for free, only with the coupons... everyone else should have to pay. :D

Blackcat
Jul 4, 2002, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by AlphaTech
I just have to wonder if they will be offering it for either 0$ or $20 for people that purchased systems this year, or that came with 10.1.4 or newer. Or since Jaguar was announced. I still have the OS coupons that came with my new TiBook, so I am covered there. If they are going to offer it for free, I will have to get to wherever they are doing that. If only at Apple stores, then I will get my mother to go there on that day (she lives under 10 minutes from one). Otherwise, I have a snowball's chance in hell of getting to the Apple store while they still have the free copies.

Please don't take this personally :)

Why do 90% of Mac users expect free OS upgrades for life, and moan about a $20 upgrade fee? 10.1 was a massive improvement over 10.0 so $20 seemed a bargain to me.

I sent off my coupon, I waited 2 weeks and I still got my upgrade pack before the people who were driving about looking for free versions. And I got a bonus Project Builder CD too.

I dread to think what it cost Apple to develop Jaguar, the least we can do is help them recoup the cost so that they do 10.3, 10.4 etc etc

tjwett
Jul 4, 2002, 01:56 PM
did anyone see the 10.2 screenshot on Railhead? it looks awful(opinion)! they changed buttons and stuff and now they look very 2D. they look like the buttons that come with Flash. i much prefer the look of 10.1. they probably did focus-group tests with Windows users in hopes to make it more Windows-like to attract PC converts. it looks like XP. gross.

AlphaTech
Jul 4, 2002, 02:02 PM
You asked for it Blackcat...

I am NOT the one saying that we should get "free OS upgrades for life" just reduced updates for people that purchased new systems since the next OS was announced. Apple gave out free copies of 10.1 to people that made it in time to get them (minus the developers cd). They include software update coupons with both the retail OS boxes AND with the computers. The purpose of those IS to allow you to pay less for a future update.

For the record, I went out and purchased 9 when it first came out (first day it was available, I have the t-shirts to proove it too). I purchased 10.1 (full retail of ~$130) and got my new TiBook a couple of weeks after those were announced. I have paid Apple for both computers and enough OS's over the years to want a reduced cost update. They HAVE offered either free, or $20 cd, updates in the past, so they should continue with it in the future. That is one of the selling points I make to people when they are trying to decide between a Mac and peecee.. the cost of OS updates in the future. With the coupons, you get the next update for $20 (on cd) where m$ charges you at least 5x-10x that for an update (if you are lucky).

Go jump in the pool to put out those flames, you are really starting to smoke the place up. :eek: :D

syntax
Jul 4, 2002, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by TeraRWM
I think Apple should allow the user to customize the UI for high-end or low-end Aqua so people like me that like the original and don't mind the slow-down can change back to the way it was in 10.1.5.

What do you think?

Dude, I don't think the refinements constitute a "low-end" Aqua. If anything, the various updates implement a lot of new snazziness (subpixel rendering, for starters) ... Apple is just doing what Apple does best -- it's simplifying the interface, making it more elegant, based on a year and a half of user feedback. The 10.2 evolution of the interface *IS* "high-end," if you need to characterize it as such. I mean, what, you were hoping for lens flares, sparkles and spoilers?

King Cobra
Jul 4, 2002, 03:40 PM
>you were hoping for lens flares, sparkles and spoilers?
What a day to bring that up, huh? :D

Personally, I like the way OS X is designed. And, from what I have personally seen via the pictures about Jaguar I have a few quick comments:
(1) Go brushed metal!
(2) I like the old, pulsing blue buttons. That lighter blue kind of turns me off.
(3) Revive the spring-loaded folders from OS 9!
(4) Surprise me with some new/rare features.

dobbin
Jul 4, 2002, 03:57 PM
Its stupid to say that Apple have spent a fortune developing 10.2 and that we should pay for this.

We already have paid for it!

Previous and current versions (10.0.x and 10.1.x) were incomplete and anyone who has bought it already has effectively paid up front to support the continuing development of 10.2

Selling these versions that are not 100% optimised has helped with the cash flow.

10.2 will be the full and 'finished' version. Of course there will be 10.3 or something else in the future with even more bells and whistles and I think it would be fair for Apple to charge for that.

Back on topic though..... I hope it does come out in early August - thats only 4 weeks away!!!!

:D

whawho
Jul 4, 2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by tjwett
did anyone see the 10.2 screenshot on Railhead? it looks awful(opinion)! they changed buttons and stuff and now they look very 2D. they look like the buttons that come with Flash. i much prefer the look of 10.1. they probably did focus-group tests with Windows users in hopes to make it more Windows-like to attract PC converts. it looks like XP. gross.

I guess I am one of the few that think it looks better, more crisp...I do like the current look but 10.2 seems to look more crisp to me.

mymemory
Jul 4, 2002, 04:42 PM
OS 9 still my best friend :)

billiam0878
Jul 4, 2002, 04:44 PM
Sounds great, but what do you think they mean by "barring unforeseen difficulties?"

Bill

Hey that's 100 Posts! Too bad I don't have anything really compelling say...

LethalWolfe
Jul 4, 2002, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by billiam0878
Sounds great, but what do you think they mean by "barring unforeseen difficulties?"

Bill



That' means that it should be out in Aug unless something unforeseen pops up to delay it. Ummm... a natural disaster destorying the fabrication plant where the discs are made is one example. ;)


Lethal

rice_web
Jul 4, 2002, 06:05 PM
I love the new look of Aqua. It looks more professional, in my opinion. And it sure seems to follow the look of their computers (it reminds me of the Quicksilver--maybe a new case isn't on it's way)

alex_ant
Jul 4, 2002, 06:14 PM
I don't see a lot of difference between the old and new Aquas. The blues are a bit bluer, the buttons are a bit flatter. What's the big deal? It isn't the end of the world, is it? XP my arse. I only wish Aqua were that colorful and appealing. :)

jaredbkt
Jul 4, 2002, 09:28 PM
I want to hear some of the new system sounds. Anyone got any to post?

kansaigaijin
Jul 4, 2002, 10:08 PM
nobody commented on the cnet article, how about them analysts?

they are compareing Apples product cycles to MS, wich is a mistake I think, Apple is a hardware company. The OS allows it to sell its hardware.

Yes it does need to recover Jag development costs, but 10.1 was not a finished product, and the updates came as soon as they were ready, not when they needed a revenue boost.

Apple and OSX is such a good deal compared to the other OS company, I can't understand why that alone does not sell more machines, for the average user the G4's are pretty snappy. Why be forever enslaved to redmond?

Quartz extreme putting a load on old graphics cards? I was under the impression that if you have the hardware to support it, QE will run, if not, 10.1.5 graphics system will have to suffice.

I like the new Aqua, but is it aqua anymore, really? Actually i don't care, as long as my themes work, I changes the look a long time ago, and continue to tweak it. Don't like the curved edge drawer on Mail though.

nero007
Jul 4, 2002, 10:39 PM
I like the refined look of Aqua. Definetly looks cleaner, crisper and more professional. It immediatly caught my eye (in a good way).

I'm looking forward to this update and can understand if they charge for it. 10.1 is a great OS and 10.2 will be even better and worth whatever Apple charges (within a reasonable amount of course).

icetraxxg5
Jul 4, 2002, 11:19 PM
I didn't like the new AQUA interface at first until I went into REALbasic and made a window just like the example AQUA jaguar window at railhead and I find the new interface more crisp and more "Glassly" looking (is that a word?). The things I don't like are the new buttons, Yuck! and the new checkboxes/radio buttons look to much like glass and are ulgy! The new tabs and sliders look better though.


All the interface needs in jaguar is shadowing under the buttons/checkboxes/radio buttons like in MacOS X 10.1 that give it a more appealing look. (I REALLY HOPE THE NEW INTERFACE IS OPTIONAL!) (If you don't know what I mean by shadowing under the interface elements go to the railhead design website and compare the MacOS X jaguar example window with buttons/radio buttons/checkboxes in MacOS X 10.1)

big
Jul 5, 2002, 12:54 AM
finally, a real build of OSX, I can't wait. If its not perfect asthetically I will be pleased to run it still.

danman
Jul 5, 2002, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by TeraRWM
I'd like to know what people think of the new Aqua style interface. Personally when I first saw the toned down version I was very disappointed and unhappy with it. Now of course it is a trade-off, less complicated interface=faster acting system.


I perhaps can understand some people not liking the changes in 10.2, but can I say, from the minute I booted up 6C75, I was -very- pleased by the changes.

The reduction in shadow, flatter elements, tighter tabs, and (am I imagining it?...) smaller fonts in places make a -huge- difference.

As a power user, who wants a more effective, and efficient (and faster) user interface the changes are nothing short of inspirational. (ok ok.. cut the fawning)

Also, on my B&W G3, the whole system is at least twice as fast, and I mean everything. Running CocoaBench gave a figure of 7.4, whereas on 10.1 it's more like 4.9

Be Happy.

Foocha
Jul 5, 2002, 02:58 AM
The 10.2 interface is clearly not a simpler version of the 10.1 interface - substituting one graphic for another is a trivial change from a system point-of-view.

I think the new interface keeps the best aspects of OS X, but improves it by making it easier to read. it's an evolution of Aqua, and I suspect once users get used to it, the 10.1 Aqua will look quite crude by comparison. The edges of the system widgets are now more clearly defined. It's very subtle, very clever - a great job.

Regarding paying for upgrades - 10.0 was clearly not a complete operating system, and it would not have been reasonable to charge for the upgrade (10.1 upgrade was free, but incurred a handling charge). 10.1 is an excellent, usable OS - I do all my production work on it. It is entirely complete (albiet with some irritating networking bugs) and I see no issue with Apple charging full whack for the 10.2 upgrade. IMHO.

DannyZR2
Jul 5, 2002, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by kansaigaijin
nobody commented on the cnet article, how about them analysts?

they are compareing Apples product cycles to MS, wich is a mistake I think, Apple is a hardware company. The OS allows it to sell its hardware.



Nope.. Apple, according to Steve himself -- co-founder, is a software company first, then a hardware company. You've got it backwards.

Oh - and WinXP. . .the folks at MS were so uncertain about the look of the OS that they made it so easy to go back to the "classic" look as THEY call it - certainly not a pun off of OS 9 as being "classic" in PPC hardware. EVERY person I know of personally that has "upgraded" to XP has since removed it and gone back to prev version.. in some cases all the way to win98.. pathetic! if you ask me. which you did since you are reading this.

Q-bert
Jul 5, 2002, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by tjwett
did anyone see the 10.2 screenshot on Railhead? it looks awful(opinion)! they changed buttons and stuff and now they look very 2D. they look like the buttons that come with Flash. i much prefer the look of 10.1. they probably did focus-group tests with Windows users in hopes to make it more Windows-like to attract PC converts. it looks like XP. gross.
No way do the changes in Jaguar look like WindowsXP by any stretch of the imagination. I run XP at work every day, and if you think that hot purple, green and blue interface with oddly-proportioned title bars looks anything like OS X Jaguar you need to check your eyes. :confused:

But seriously though, I looked at the screenshots posted around the web, and I rather like the new UI. It's easier to read, like others have said here, especially on an LCD monitor with the new variable anti-aliasing settings. I highly doubt that the new look came as an attempt to be more Windows-like, that's just strange to even suggest that.

Foocha
Jul 5, 2002, 03:25 AM
XP Rocks

It's a great OS, and Microsoft's best to date - it's almost as good as OS X ;)

I can't imaging anyone prefering Windows 98 - the issue is probably just to do with a lack of driver availability for older hardware - a familiar story for OS X users as well.

ShaolinMiddleFinger
Jul 5, 2002, 03:37 AM
For all the people that want the features and speed of OS 9 but want the look of aqua...go find the theme online. That's what I did.

I still haven't fully converged to OS X because I don't have the cash for FCP3.

I do hope that 10.2 will be faster, though. I saw the screenshots and they look okay. Not that big of a change. If you saw that before the original OS X, you would've been amazed. Stop complaining about it, and just accept it

Foocha
Jul 5, 2002, 03:45 AM
Aqua is the least important aspect of OS X (even though it's pretty cool!)

It's the rock solid system with pre-emtive multitasking & memory protection that really counts.

OS 9 skinned to look like OS X is a sheep in wolf's clothing!

backspinner
Jul 5, 2002, 04:32 AM
As a hardware developer, I know that making refinements cost lots of effort and therefore money. Bringing Jaguar out before schools start in Europe is such a good idea! I will buy it and I'm happy to pay for it. You have to pay for everything, also if it isn't as finished as you wish. Come on, 10.1 worked for most of the tasks and people so 10.2 is something new. 10.1 isn't unfinished, it just doesn't include features that you would like to have. Changing the look a little surely helps speeding the interface but will also work as a selling point.

Kid Red
Jul 5, 2002, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by DannyZR2


Nope.. Apple, according to Steve himself -- co-founder, is a software company first, then a hardware company. You've got it backwards.

Oh - and WinXP. . .the folks at MS were so uncertain about the look of the OS that they made it so easy to go back to the "classic" look as THEY call it - certainly not a pun off of OS 9 as being "classic" in PPC hardware. EVERY person I know of personally that has "upgraded" to XP has since removed it and gone back to prev version.. in some cases all the way to win98.. pathetic! if you ask me. which you did since you are reading this.

What? lol, Apple is a hardware company. Their software sales are no where near what the hardware sales are. No one goes to the conventions to see their new software, haha. "Who care's about the G5, when iMovie 3 coming out!?!!?" "If Apple doesn't release a mjor update to iTunes, Apple is dead and buried" hahaha

Yea right, someone does have it backwards.

Megaquad
Jul 5, 2002, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Kid Red


What? lol, Apple is a hardware company. Their software sales are no where near what the hardware sales are. No one goes to the conventions to see their new software, haha. "Who care's about the G5, when iMovie 3 coming out!?!!?" "If Apple doesn't release a mjor update to iTunes, Apple is dead and buried" hahaha

Yea right, someone does have it backwards.
apple doesn't make any of its hardware..not even case!
as for new aqua..finally!! usable aqua,thats what i was waiting for..

rice_web
Jul 5, 2002, 12:27 PM
Apple makes very little of their hardware, but they do charge an arm and a leg for it. Apple is a hardware company indeed.

Catfish_Man
Jul 5, 2002, 04:00 PM
...is faster? They're replacing one picture (a TIFF IIRC) with another the same size. How could it improve performance? It gives a whopping 0% speed improvement. All the speed improvement you see is from other things. This is entirely a cosmetic change, I didn't like it at first, but (like the new iMac) it's starting to grow on me. I think I will get used to it fairly quickly.

Just to make sure no one mentions this: The button shadows in OSX are NOT like the drop shadows of windows. They are just a picture of a shadow, so making them smaller won't help performance any. (I really hope no one was going to say this).

btw, 10.2 kicks ***.

rice_web
Jul 5, 2002, 04:48 PM
The complexity of an image matters greatly. The more complex an image is, the larger in bytes it becomes. Thus, a less complex image will take fewer resources.

boobers
Jul 5, 2002, 05:25 PM
are probably already in development..similar to the unsanity haxie's or tinker tool. you can customize X any which way you like with these..removing drop shadows or making them smaller etc..windowshade..if Apple won't do it somebody else will. Eventually we will see an appearance panel with fully customizable widgets in osx..its just a matter of time..

BOOMBA
Jul 5, 2002, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by TeraRWM
I'd like to know what people think of the new Aqua style interface. Personally when I first saw the toned down version I was very disappointed and unhappy with it.

What do you think?

I don't see a difference, really, not in anything that matters.
Check boxes?
Who gives a ....darn?

j763
Jul 5, 2002, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by dobbin
Its stupid to say that Apple have spent a fortune developing 10.2 and that we should pay for this.

We already have paid for it!

Previous and current versions (10.0.x and 10.1.x) were incomplete and anyone who has bought it already has effectively paid up front to support the continuing development of 10.2

Selling these versions that are not 100% optimised has helped with the cash flow.

10.2 will be the full and 'finished' version. Of course there will be 10.3 or something else in the future with even more bells and whistles and I think it would be fair for Apple to charge for that.

OK, so now you're nominally in charge of what prices Apple should charge to be 'fair'. Great :rolleyes:

foniks2020
Jul 6, 2002, 02:47 AM
Regarding the interface tweaks... within a week of 10.2 release you will be gauranteed to have a Theme for 'classic' OS X. Count on it.

I don't use the default Aqua interface anyways so this is such a small concern to me compared with the many expected performanced enhancements 10.2 promises to bring.

I'm especially looking forward to being able to completely augment my CPU with the GPU.

Think about it. By offloading all rendering 2D/3D/4D(video/anim) to the GPU/graphics card we will be seeing a huge increase in performance and at a very low price point.

Have you ever looked at the price comparisons of graphics cards to CPUs? There is a very large disparity. In all desktops you are going to be able to upgrade your entire systems performance for $200 by purchasing a faster/more MB of RAM graphics card. This is a huge revolution in how computers work.

CPUs were never meant to handle the kind of day to day minute to minute tasks we ask of them.... rendering of visuals. They were meant for serious processing of code, not the non-stop always the same math routines of graphics.

Add to this that the CPU will now be free of all that and able to focus on it's real purpose... Photoshop!;) and you will see that 2x speed improvement described above or better... that guy was on a G3!

Megaquad
Jul 6, 2002, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by BOOMBA


I don't see a difference, really, not in anything that matters.
Check boxes?
Who gives a ....darn?
try doing something creative with aqua,or just compare it with os9 platinum interface..
they had to fix buttons and other elements of interface,because it was unusable! too large! too crapy!

mmmdreg
Jul 6, 2002, 06:51 AM
Although I felt almost intimidated by the original aqua interface when I moved from OS9, i got completely used to it in about the first 1-2 days...I'm sure basically everyone will quickly grow used to the Jaguar interface and will wonder how they ever used anything else...

Sun Baked
Jul 6, 2002, 08:17 PM
Just wait, there should be an update soon on what Apple is going to charge for the next version of OS X.

It would be nice to see it flat rated to $99, but look at how much MS charges for the full fare and upgrade versions of Windows.

And to those of you complaining that you've supported Apple for 10 years by buying hardware and software and therefore deserve free upgrades for life - go buy a Dell, I hear the super deluxe model includes a tube of MS-branded KY Jelly.

AlphaTech
Jul 6, 2002, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by Sun Baked
go buy a Dell, I hear the super deluxe model includes a tube of MS-branded KY Jelly.

I hear that they send the bottle that includes the crushed glas and/or sand. :eek: :eek: :D

theaz
Jul 7, 2002, 07:12 AM
i am glad that Jaguar is coming on nicely and that we can expect to see it soon(ish)! I continue to be amazed by the huge number of improvements that it contains :)

I am not so sure of the use of "toned down" in the original post. I can not see where this direct quote came from, and have never seen it on either railhead design or thinksecret (please correct me if i am wrong). On the other hand, i do note that railhead says that it is "new, refined", and thinksecret refers to the "remarkable tweaks to the Aqua user interface," and the "clearer, crisper, and more refined look" of the user interface elements. To me this does not sound like a 'toned down', but rather a 'toned up' aqua. Better still, you could call it a 'better toned' aqua :)

mmcneil
Jul 7, 2002, 10:25 AM
I feel fairly certain that this upgrade will be much like 10.1 - the primary cash flow for this release will be NEW SALES!! The majority of Apple's primary markets have not switched to OS X yet - they are waiting for the non "public beta". 10.2 sounds like the real thing and combined with some new hardware will significantly boost sales for Apple.:p

As far as software company vs hardware company - I think apple uses its software to sell its hardware. This is the only company that maintains 24% margins on its hardware. The PeeCee companies are lucky to make as much as they pay in sales tax on each box:D

OSeXy!
Jul 8, 2002, 01:54 PM
I think it's natural (and good) that Apple is refining the Aqua GUI. From the screenshots, I agree the tweeks make it look a bit more 'professional' -- but without being boring or overly corporate. To get that balance really takes some doing, in design terms. I also think it will be easier to read on smaller screens: on 10.1 some windows can look a bit crowded and busy... Go Apple.