Monaco GP

[virividox]

What are your thoughts on this years gp?

[virividox]

finally not schumi

[CmdrLaForge]

Montoya shoots Schumi out of the race ! And that during the safety car phase ! Unbelievable.

[Gee]

JB's on a charge...!

[CmdrLaForge]

finally not schumi

Right. But whats the reason ?!? That the stupid asshole Montoya shoot him out of the race. And that during the SC phase. How stupid is Montoya ? And after the race I already can imagine his babyface saying it was Schumis fault. Schumi was the leader and he has to take care when driving behind.

I say it was on purpose. Because he said he wants to do this before. And thats not acceptable at all.

[virividox]

montoya has always had it out for schumi.

its a sad way to go out.
this is fuel their rivalry even more; but its not much of a rivalry schumi being 6 times champion and montoya being 0

[CmdrLaForge]

Congrats Trulli !

This was definitly the best race of the year ! It was really so much fun to watch.

[Belly-laughs]

Montoya shoots Schumi out of the race ! And that during the safety car phase ! Unbelievable.

To me it looked like Schumis own fault. He locked the brakes, hardly necessary. And that´s nothing the guy behind expects in a safety car situation.

[russed]

russell's theory:

no schumacher = interesting race

bit gutted button didnt get the elusive victory but hat off to trulli though.

[CmdrLaForge]

To me it looked like Schumis own fault. He locked the brakes, hardly necessary. And that´s nothing the guy behind expects in a safety car situation.

Are you blind ? Schumi was in lead. He makes the pace. Period. After several laps after the safety car you need to heaten up your brakes. Thats what he did. Montoya was much to near behing Schumi. If you look at Trulli - he had much much more distance. Again - I think it was on purpose.

[russed]

hows about this for a new rule:

if anyone manages to take out schumacher, that person gets 10 bonus championship points.

it would give us crashes (= good) and no schumacher (= very good)

as you can probably tell i dont like him, i think he breeds dullness

[CmdrLaForge]

hows about this for a new rule:

if anyone manages to take out schumacher, that person gets 10 bonus championship points.

it would give us crashes (= good) and no schumacher (= very good)

as you can probably tell i dont like him, i think he breeds dullness

I really never heard such an un-sportive statement. Good that nearly nobody thinks like you.

Its not Schumis fault that its boring. Its the others fault

[russed]

if i remember correctly - schumacher isnt the most sporting himself, thinking back to something like 1995, the last race of the season, he took out hill because he didnt want to be overtaken and thus lose the championship. i think that isnt the only time he has done it.

[CmdrLaForge]

if i remember correctly - schumacher isnt the most sporting himself, thinking back to something like 1995, the last race of the season, he took out hill because he didnt want to be overtaken and thus lose the championship. i think that isnt the only time he has done it.
Wrong Hill and Schu crashed in 1994. And no - that was not un-sportive.

Other thing was 1999 with Villneuve. That was not fair and he was punished by FIA.

But I was talking about you for your comments !!! And not about Montoya.

[russed]

Wrong Hill and Schu crashed in 1994. And no - that was not un-sportive.

it was schumachers fault though, i remember, it wasa right hand bend with schumi on the inside and hill on the outside, then schumi slammed his steering wheel all the way to the left, i remember this because i was watching it at the time and the papers were full of it. they took pictures from the on board camclearly showing he was steering left when he should be going right!

But I was talking about you for your comments !!! And not about Montoya.

come on you really do have to admit he is a bit boring!

[AmigoMac]

it was schumachers fault though, i remember, it wasa right hand bend with schumi on the inside and hill on the outside, then schumi slammed his steering wheel all the way to the left, i remember this because i was watching it at the time and the papers were full of it. they took pictures from the on board camclearly showing he was steering left when he should be going right!



come on you really do have to admit he is a bit boring!

It's pretty impossible to discuss such things with german people... if it was up to them, schumi would have a place in the church... I live in Germany, ooppps, I like this place :) :D ... Now I want to read comments about Ralf's fault ... or, was it Alonso? :D ... The BILD has done a monster from Montoya... since Brazil 2001! I like the way he drives...

Cheers!

[Sparky's]

What are your thoughts on this years gp?

Are you speaking from a certain link? If so don't see it.
I am a major F1 fan but since they moved the TV coverage to Speedvision I don't see the races anymore. I hear the occasional report but it's usually just the results of each race. I guess I need to find the "Difinitive" web site for it and play catch-up. :o

I can still remember Jackie Stewart running not only F1 but the old Can-Am series. Riverside was always one of my favorite tracks. I had a '67 Mini I raced in C-Sedan for a couple of years and had a ball.

[Blackstealth]

...it wasa right hand bend with schumi on the inside and hill on the outside, then schumi slammed his steering wheel all the way to the left...

That's pretty much the way I remember it too, Schumi took Hill out. I was absolutely livid at the time.

[russed]

ralf should lose his liscence, he is a liability he causes most of the crashes. well i suppose that is a good thing then. i wonder if schumi is a bit miffed with montoya? they dont like each other as it is!

[russed]

That's pretty much the way I remember it too, Schumi took Hill out. I was absolutely livid at the time.

at last someone is on my side! i remember at the time they showed a pic of schumi on a wall having just got out of the car looking quite happy with himself once he had heard hill had retired in the pits!

[iGav]

if i remember correctly - schumacher isnt the most sporting himself,.

That's 'cos he's from the Prost and Senna school of racing ;) :p

Schumacher, had hit the wall and his car was damaged, all Hill had to do was wait till the next corner and he would have been through (no different to what Prost did to Senna at Suzuka in '89, and no where near as dangerous as what Senna did to Prost the following year at the same track) yet they never get the same degree of stick. :confused:

[CmdrLaForge]

That's 'cos he's from the Prost and Senna school of racing ;) :p

Schumacher, had hit the wall and his car was damaged, all Hill had to do was wait till the next corner and he would have been through (no different to what Prost did to Senna at Suzuka in '89, and no where near as dangerous as what Senna did to Prost the following year at the same track) yet they never get the same degree of stick. :confused:

Thanks iGAV. I have seen that race as well and and you are absolutly right about that incident.

But that was another time.

[JFreak]

if i remember correctly - schumacher isnt the most sporting himself, thinking back to something like 1995, the last race of the season, he took out hill because he didnt want to be overtaken and thus lose the championship. i think that isnt the only time he has done it.

that hill incident was in 1994, his first championship, and that has has given a bad name for all his achievements - because his legend started with bad sportsmanship.

the 1995 season was his, there's no comparison, really.

when he went to ferrari in 1996 he didn't have a car he could compete with, so there was little results for him. but again, in 1997 he tried to take villeneuve out in the last race. fortunately it was schumacher who had to retire from the race and villeneuve got the title.

and in 1998 & 1999 it was mika häkkinen who took the title in front of schumi, and hakkinen is still the last man who has succeeded in beating the man.

2000 - 2002 was ferrari's golden age. it was schumi who was the only one competing for the championship. but in 2003 he didn't really deserve the title, once again. it was the european gp where he spun off but the race stewards pushed him back to the race again, which gave him three points in the final results. but back in the 1989-1990 when ayrton senna and alain prost had similar battle between them, the "outsider help" was considered illegal and points were disqualified after the race. but now schumi got to keep his points giving him the title (because raikkonen was only two points behind after the season ended).

so schumi has only four titles in my book. that's plenty, and i'm not denying that he is one of the greatest. but because his career begun with a bad light, he is always the anti-hero.

this season is schumi's, there's no competition. that's why many of us europeans wish schumi to retire. the f1 isn't interesting anymore.

--

the reason of f1 being not interested is not schumi, in my opinion. it's because fia allows high-tech brakes in f1 cars. take a look at cart cars for example, they have such a bad brakes that it's really up to the driver how early one brakes when cornering. in f1 it's only up to the tyres how well you can brake, and there's not enough difference between cars and drivers. it was a 1982 champion keke rosberg who back in the year 2000 commented that current cars stop too easily and there would be much more competetition by simply reducing the braking force of the cars. no need to reduce engine power or aerodynamic grip - just make the braking more difficult and the skill of a driver jumps up. he also had an opinion of denying the use of automatic gear box, which i agree, but in my opinion his point about brakes was a bigger one.

schumi's not as good fellow as he pretends to be now. his career started badly. there has not been anyone that has behaved worse than schumi in the beginning of his career.

[JFreak]

Wrong Hill and Schu crashed in 1994. And no - that was not un-sportive.

Other thing was 1999 with Villneuve. That was not fair and he was punished by FIA.

hill - schu battle was indeed in 1994 but it was unsportive at the greatest degree! one point difference before the last race and schumi knowing he would have to retire, so he just took the rival out and thus took the title. he didn't deserve the title at all. thank god hill took the title in 1996.

the battle with villeneuve was in 1997 and thank god villeneuve took the title. schumi's action was just plain stupid.

in 1999 it was mika hakkinen who took the title for the second time, the first being in 1998.

[kettle]

Wrong Hill and Schu crashed in 1994. And no - that was not un-sportive.

Other thing was 1999 with Villneuve. That was not fair and he was punished by FIA.

But I was talking about you for your comments !!! And not about Montoya.

What the Schu did today is what he has always done, he brake tests his opponents, he was always doing it to Damon Hill because it was the only way he could keep ahead. The Schu would brake test on the sling shot corner before a passing place.

Hill could always find a smoother route through a corner due to a smoother throttle control, hill is at heart a bike racer, and this made him a very smooth F1 driver. The Schu on the other hand has a go-kart background using a "throw" your car around a corner and accelerate out in a straight a line possible making use of horse power advantages through the mid ranges. This is usually how the Schu seems to drive lesser powered/top speed cars better than opponents.

In the tunnel today, the Schu was trying to use foresight to his advantage, I think he was relying on the fact that the creator of a pile up usually gets to drive off scott free, today his tactical genius came up and bit him on the arse literally.

I laughed my flipping head off!!


While I'm at it, people who have a downer on Damon Hill.... Coulthard once said that anyone with the best car could win a World Championship, he has since spent his career disproving this point.

Which drivers have had best opportunity and done least with it?

[Belly-laughs]

Are you blind ?

No, but you could argue Monatoya is. Still, if you need to heat your brakes, why do it in the pitch black darkness of that tunnel? The safety car still had the whole dockside, laid in beautiful sunshine, to go before going in the pit lane. Even though the car in lead dictates the speed, the driver should know the risk of dropping speed so suddenly. Maybe a little hint of what he´s about to perform would be appropriate? If Schumi and Montoya has a thing going, Schumi had even better reason to be aware.

I still say it was an accident. If Montoya wants to be a contender of the race and in this year´s championship, surely he wouldn´t jeopardise his chances by ramming people with the very vehicle that will take him to the finish line. He was very lucky he too didn´t hit the wall.

[JFreak]

Which drivers have had best opportunity and done least with it?

coulthard, as you stated, has always driven in best cars available, but achieved nothing. he has always stated at the beginning of a season that this time the chamionship is his, but has always been in the shadow of his team mate. notably behind hakkinen and raikkonen, the two finns making him at shame recently.

[iGav]

No, but you could argue Monatoya is. Still, if you need to heat your brakes, why do it in the pitch black darkness of that tunnel?

The tunnel isn't actually that dark in the flesh, it's the TV camera's that make it appear far, far darker than it actually is, the darkness had nothing to do with the collision, it was Montoya driving too close to Schumi at too fast a speed when they weren't under racing conditions.

It also takes a substantial amount of time to heat Carbon brakes, all the other drivers were doing exactly the same thing as Schumacher was, it's just that they weren't driving so close to the car infront, that they couldn't take evasive action. ;)

What the Schu did today is what he has always done, he brake tests his opponents, he was always doing it to Damon Hill because it was the only way he could keep ahead. The Schu would brake test on the sling shot corner before a passing place.

Brake testing?? hahahah... He was warming his brakes during a safety car period... period. Just like every other driver in the pack at the time.

But he wasn't brake testing for a couple of reasons. 1. They weren't racing at that time, they were in a safety car situation, with half a lap to go. 2. it's not Schu's fault that Montoya was going at such a speed that under SC conditions, he couldn't take evasive action.

It wasn't deliberate by Montoya, but it was an avoidable incident, he just needs to be more careful in situations like that, that's all.

[johnnyjibbs]

I admit we all laughed out loud when we saw Schumacher. Of course, he is the best driver, but it's nice for him to make a stupid mistake once in a while (I don't believe Montoya did anything wrong).

I was routing for Button but then hats off to Truli. At least it was a great race. Those accidents also show just how safe F1 cars are. Nows lets get rid of the silly rules such as qualifying and the 1 engine rule.

[CmdrLaForge]

hill - schu battle was indeed in 1994 but it was unsportive at the greatest degree! one point difference before the last race and schumi knowing he would have to retire, so he just took the rival out and thus took the title. he didn't deserve the title at all. thank god hill took the title in 1996.

the battle with villeneuve was in 1997 and thank god villeneuve took the title. schumi's action was just plain stupid.

in 1999 it was mika hakkinen who took the title for the second time, the first being in 1998.

Yes, you are correct about the dates. But not about that in 1994 it was such a unsportive action.

1) You should remember formula one back then. It was really much more agressive and you should remember Sennas actions against Porst.
2) It was Hills own fault. If he just had waited a little bit and not tried to push trough he had won that championship.

[CmdrLaForge]

No, but you could argue Monatoya is. Still, if you need to heat your brakes, why do it in the pitch black darkness of that tunnel? The safety car still had the whole dockside, laid in beautiful sunshine, to go before going in the pit lane. Even though the car in lead dictates the speed, the driver should know the risk of dropping speed so suddenly. Maybe a little hint of what he´s about to perform would be appropriate? If Schumi and Montoya has a thing going, Schumi had even better reason to be aware.

I still say it was an accident. If Montoya wants to be a contender of the race and in this year´s championship, surely he wouldn´t jeopardise his chances by ramming people with the very vehicle that will take him to the finish line. He was very lucky he too didn´t hit the wall.

1) That tunnel is not that dark how it looks in TV
2) All drivers where doing that.
3) In a interview Coulthard and Lauda clearly stated that it was Montoyas fault. BTW they also clearly stated that the other incident was Alonsos fault and not Ralfs.

[iGav]

in 1997 he tried to take villeneuve out in the last race. fortunately it was schumacher who had to retire from the race and villeneuve got the title.

Yep, and he was stripped of his position as well, which was only fair. But then why wasn't Alain Prost stripped of his WDC in 1989?? (in almost identical circumstances). Or why wasn't Senna stripped of his 1990 WDC when he took Prost out at the first corner in Suzuka??, arguably the most stupid piece of driving in the history of the sport, using his McLaren as a guided missile at 160MPH, in very close proximity of grandstands, when both cars could have gone into the crowd, is worse than anything Schumacher has ever pulled off (he's only ever closed the door, like Prost at low speeds, not rammed another driver off at 160MPH)


and in 1998 & 1999 it was mika häkkinen who took the title in front of schumi, and hakkinen is still the last man who has succeeded in beating the man.

I have alot of respect for Häkkinen, he was an incredibly smooth and fast driver, especially when the car was set up perfectly for him, a gentleman sportsman too.

He wasn't necessarily the best driver in the rain, and he used to struggle though if he was stuck mid-field, almost like he lost interest.. but when he was out front, damn was he fast!

It was a shame to see how he lost form and was a shadow of his former self in 2001 being consistanly outraced by D.C., if his heart wasn't in it, he should have retired at the end of 2000. It was a pleasure to watch him race though.

As for 1998 Häkkinen deserved the title, in what was clearly the best car of the field, but Schu ran him surprisingly close that year, in a much inferior car.

1999 is a moot point, Schu missed several races after breaking his leg at Silverstone, although Häkkinen made very tough work from then on, generally driving quite poorly, and even making an enforced error at Monza and very nearly came close to losing the title to Irvine... which really would've been unthinkable.


but in 2003 he didn't really deserve the title, once again. it was the european gp where he spun off but the race stewards pushed him back to the race again, which gave him three points in the final results. but back in the 1989-1990 when ayrton senna and alain prost had similar battle between them, the "outsider help" was considered illegal and points were disqualified after the race. but now schumi got to keep his points giving him the title (because raikkonen was only two points behind after the season ended).

He didn't deserve the title in 2003?? :eek: you're jesting... :D he was on inferior tyres all year, and won 6 races. To Kimi's 1.

The European GP when Schu spun, well his car was in a dangerous position, and the engine was STILL running, pushing a car back on track isn't actually illegal (unless he has stalled) so his result was justified.

Senna's disqualification in 1989 wasn't just because he received a push start, it was because he joined the the track at a different point to where he'd left it.. and missed out an ENTIRE chicaine in the process.

All this talk of old rules is irrelevant, however by your thinking and just to be abit naughty...

Had the points system not been changed after 2002, then Schu's winning
margin would have been much greater, infact Schu would have sealed the title at Indy, instead of Suzuka.

Had 1988's rules existed in 2003, Raikkonen wouldn't have even been close to winning, because of the difference in points structure, and because only the best 11 results counted, and Schu with his 6 wins, would have trumped it. ;)

Or to be really controversial, how about Senna in 1988, not actually being World Champion with the 1989 rules. Prost actually scored more points than Senna in 1988, but because of the 11 Best Results rule Senna edged it, and that with his WDC which he didn't really win in 1990 because he purposely took Prost off at the first corner in Suzuka... Senna could have been infact only a 1x World Champion. :eek: :p

schumi's not as good fellow as he pretends to be now. his career started badly. there has not been anyone that has behaved worse than schumi in the beginning of his career.

*cough* SENNA *cough* check his early history ;)

[iGav]

Nows lets get rid of the silly rules such as qualifying and the 1 engine rule.

Ditto.. Mosely seems to think that the old 12 lap qually is coming back... boy do I hope so, it was incredible watching Schu and Montoya duel it out... and Hakkinen, and especially Senna. :D

[iGav]

No action is to be taken against JPM... hmmmm, no I do wonder how they came to that conclusion, it wasn't on purpose, it wasn't a racing incident, but it was an avoidable incident. Talk about muddying the waters of the rule book. :rolleyes:

http://www.itv-f1.com/news/news_story/21313

Anyway... onto the Nurburgring :D

[JFreak]

2) It was Hills own fault. If he just had waited a little bit and not tried to push trough he had won that championship.

yes, hill would have won if he had the brain to wait for schumi to retire, but that's not the point... the fact is, schumi did wrong by trying to take hill out (and succeeding), and it is completetly schumi's unsposrtsmanship that took him the title instead of his superioirity in that season. it is a sure thing he was a better driver overall having a lesser car than hill in 1994, but it's the points that count and the situation was clear: hill was going to take the title after schumi was about to retire, and schumi decided he's entitled to take hill out of the race. that's not a behaviour of a champion, is it?

[VincentVega]

Are you blind ? Schumi was in lead. He makes the pace. Period. After several laps after the safety car you need to heaten up your brakes. Thats what he did. Montoya was much to near behing Schumi. If you look at Trulli - he had much much more distance. Again - I think it was on purpose.

Schumi was in the lead, in a dark tunnel, where there's very little visibility (the cameras make it look a lot lighter than it is). And he decides to brake hard (his front left tyre locked up). How's Montoya going to anticipate that happening?

You have no proof it was done deliberately. It was quite likely that Montoya would have sustained damage as well, he's just lucky that he didn't retire as well. It was an accident, plain and simple.

Remember Monza 2000? Schumi brakes behind the safety car, everyone gets caught out, Button goes off and has to retire. All because of the mighty Schumacher. Well, this time he got caught out. What a tragedy! :)

Ah, the deluded rantings of the Schumi fan-boi! How very quaint they are...

[russed]

Yes, you are correct about the dates. But not about that in 1994 it was such a unsportive action.

1) You should remember formula one back then. It was really much more agressive and you should remember Sennas actions against Porst.
2) It was Hills own fault. If he just had waited a little bit and not tried to push trough he had won that championship.

it wasnt Hill's fault, schumi blatently steered into him. just because it was more agressive back then it doesnt mean you can try crashing into someone to take them out and guarantee the victory and thus the championship. he knew he was going to lose the race and championship if hill got past him and he knew he was going to do so. he cheated and so deserves the tainted reputation he has as a result.

[russed]

Ah, the deluded rantings of the Schumi fan-boi! How very quaint they are...

here here! at least it appears im not the only one who is against him.

[Belly-laughs]

Schumi was in the lead, in a dark tunnel, where there's very little visibility (the cameras make it look a lot lighter than it is). And he decides to brake hard (his front left tyre locked up). How's Montoya going to anticipate that happening?

You have no proof it was done deliberately. It was quite likely that Montoya would have sustained damage as well, he's just lucky that he didn't retire as well. It was an accident, plain and simple.

Glad to see others having that point of view too. :) The length of the lock-up must have caused a dramatic reduction in speed. I´m sure the drivers further back, keeping their brakes warm, didn´t lock-up as much as Schumi did. Either it was a break-system failure or he made a mess of it himself. If he did it deliberately, trying to cause a hold up and possible contact between cars further back, I say he bloody well deserved it.

[iGav]

The length of the lock-up must have caused a dramatic reduction in speed. I´m sure the drivers further back, keeping their brakes warm, didn´t lock-up as much as Schumi did. Either it was a break-system failure or he made a mess of it himself. If he did it deliberately, trying to cause a hold up and possible contact between cars further back, I say he bloody well deserved it.

The fact that Schu locked up is irrelevant, the brakes were cold, they snag when they're cold, you frequently see drivers locking up brakes on the parade lap, it's not uncommon. F1 brakes take a good lap to come up to temp, and they don't come up to temp when they're stuck behind a safety car doing 50-100mph, with next to nothing load through the brakes.

Had Montoya not being following so closely, and left enough room to be able to take evasive action (like all the other drivers were doing) then there would not of been a problem.

Also remember, they weren't under racing conditions at the time so there was no need for Montoya to be shawdoing Schu so close, only half way round the track, with the SC only 30 yards in front of Schu. :rolleyes:

[kettle]

There are just too many Schu obsessed opinions, this is a married man you guys are dribbling over, please stand back, put your hearts somewhere safe and start approaching this situation with a rational mind. :D

[Savage Henry]

I only managed to see the final 30 laps, and it was by far the best racing F1 has seen all season.

Sure, it would have been better had Trulli and Button achieved the result they had with Schu still in the race, but these things do happen. And unless the incidents, circumstances and implications are identical (which they never are) it seems rather pointless digging up old events from seasons past with which to make comparitives.

Schu, will still get the title, and deservedly so. So Monaco will be a mere insignificant glitch in an otherwise successful season.

[JFreak]

I have alot of respect for Häkkinen (...) It was a shame to see how he lost form and was a shadow of his former self in 2001 being consistanly outraced by D.C.

well, häkkinen used to always talk about the car balance, and it is well known that häkkinen enjoys a car that oversteers a little (but d.c. likes an understeering one). in fact all great drivers (schumi, senna, jpm...) like oversteering better, because that gives more control over how the car can corner. understeering drivers (d.c., ralf, barrichello...) tend to be the safe-and-sound second drivers that never become a legend.

anyway, häkkinen's fault was that he let d.c. do most of the testing in 2000 & 2001, and naturally d.c. developed the car into the direction he himself likes. that is, understeering one. and häkkinen couldn't edge it, because he couldn't trust the car like before. given a car häkkinen could trust and a car d.c. could enjoy, häkkinen was always half a second quicker.

too bad häkkinen couldn't take the 2000 title. i would've want to see him retire as a 3x champion.

[iGav]

start approaching this situation with a rational mind. :D

I am... :D Montoya shouldn't have drove into him... heh heh heh.

Once Schu ties up the title, he'll put him in the wall... Senna style. ;) :D

[JFreak]

Once Schu ties up the title, he'll put him in the wall... Senna style. ;) :D

i hope not. here's for schumi: "break a leg" :D

[Sol]

Monaco was the first good race of 2004. There was plenty of drama from the start to the end.

For me what happened to Michael Schumacher is not important. I love Formula 1 for the race, not for one over-rated team and its number 1 driver. Renault and BAR earned their victories while that break-testing stunt cost both Schumacher and Montoya their races. Montoya has nothing to apologise for; if the driver in front of him was more responsible they would both have continued to race. It is too bad that Michael Schumacher is treated with kid gloves by the FIA and stunts like that go un-punished.

[Belly-laughs]

The fact that Schu locked up is irrelevant, the brakes were cold, they snag when they're cold, you frequently see drivers locking up brakes...

Typical woman´s excuse when hit by car behind :)

[whookam]

lol, I think its funny that people think the camera makes the tunnel appear darker than reality. What makes you think that? I can imagine the director sitting back thinking, 'now if we could just make that tunnel a little darker so it looks really dramatic.'

If you are driving into a tunnel from bright sunshine at SC speeds, your are going to be out the other side before your eyes/brain can compensate and adjust. The camera exposure is balanced so that we, the viewers, can see what is happening.

And of course Martin Brundle said it was darker for the drivers in the commentry... can't really argue with that.

[CmdrLaForge]

Sure, it would have been better had Trulli and Button achieved the result they had with Schu still in the race, but these things do happen. And unless the incidents, circumstances and implications are identical (which they never are) it seems rather pointless digging up old events from seasons past with which to make comparitives.

Schu, will still get the title, and deservedly so. So Monaco will be a mere insignificant glitch in an otherwise successful season.

I think you are right, even with Schumi still in the race Trulli and Button would have finished first and second. They both made the very good decision of coming in during the beginning of the SC phase. Schumi slept there.

For the FIA the incident between Schumi and Montoya was not worthful any further action. Everybody happy ? I wonder what the international reactions would have been if Schumi kicks someone out of the race and the FIA decides no further action needed.

I think we discussed this incident in detail and every side sticks happy with her/his opinion. And thats fine.

Hopefully we see in the near future more races like the one yesterday. I love to see good racing. No need that Schumi wins. I would be glad if there would be a real competitor for him like Damon or Mika was. Unfortunatly they both stopped driving.


;)

[iGav]

lol, I think its funny that people think the camera makes the tunnel appear darker than reality. What makes you think that?

Because I've been there... :rolleyes: and it ain't all that dark. Much the same way as how you can judge speeds and distances of road cars when entering the tunnels around London (and they're alot darker than the Monaco Tunnel. You don't become blinded by the sudden transition at SC speeds.

Either way it still doesn't justify Montoya driving so close at such a speed, with half a lap to go before the restart, when he was completely aware that there was a safety car in front of Schu, and he's very much aware of the accelerate hard, brake heavy routine because it's done on all the parade laps before every GP.

What was Montoya doing so close to Schu when other drivers give space in the same situation??

Let us not forget that this isn't the first time Montoya has hassled Schu in a SC period. If memory serves, either 2003 or 2002 at the A1 in Austria, under a SC Montoya who was 2nd at the time was crawling all over Schu, and even pulled up alongside trying to get Schu to speed up, because he thought Schu was bunching up the pack too much, well it's not up to the 2nd place driver to dictate the pace of the pack during an SC period, it's for the leader to decide.

Had it had been the other way around, they'd still be a bunch of people blaming Schu no doubt :rolleyes:

[iGav]

Typical woman´s excuse when hit by car behind :)

Well it's the car behinds fault isn't it. :rolleyes: You're supposed to leave a big enough distant to be able to either stop, or take avoiding action if the car infront gets into difficulties or has to stop suddenly.

If you hit the car infront, you're driving without due care and attention. simple. ;)

[Belly-laughs]

Well it's the car behinds fault isn't it. :rolleyes: You're supposed to leave a big enough distant to be able to either stop, or take avoiding action if the car infront gets into difficulties or has to stop suddenly.

If you hit the car infront, you're driving without due care and attention. simple. ;)

That´s just plain unfair! :mad:

[iGav]

That´s just plain unfair! :mad:

Why is it??

If you're stuck on someone's bumper, and they have to brake suddenly, because say a child runs out in front of them, and because you're so close to them that you can't react quick enough to stop before hitting them, then it's the following driver who is at fault.

It's not the other drivers fault for braking heavily to avoid an accident, it's the driver behind for not giving himself enough space to stop. Hence the 'without due care and attention'.

Remember only a fool breaks the 2 second rule. ;)

Interestingly, according to recent stats released here, women are more likely to crash into somebody from behind than be hit from behind by a man ;)

[Blackstealth]

Remember only a fool breaks the 2 second rule.

Yet you leave a 2 second gap to find some jerk decides to pull into it, and then stomps on the brakes! :rolleyes:

[robbieduncan]

The "2 second rule" does not apply in racing! It is often necessary and indeed desirable for 1 car to follow another very closely. Whilst this is normally during actual racing conditions it is also normal under SC. The reason that the cars can drive right under each other gear boxes (which are at the back of an F1 car) is that they all respect a common set of rules, namely that a driver will not break apart from in the normal breaking zones. If drivers start breaking all over the place then there will be a spate of accidents followed by a complete lack of overtaking as no driver will be willing to slipstream another.

[iGav]

The "2 second rule" does not apply in racing! It is often necessary and indeed desirable for 1 car to follow another very closely. Whilst this is normally during actual racing conditions it is also normal under SC.

I know it doesn't apply in racing... :rolleyes: :p :p

But during a SC period, the cars aren't racing each other, and also the behaviour is exactly the same as when the F1 cars do the parade lap, all the drivers do practice starts and heavy breaking to put temp into the tyres and the brakes. It's NOT unusual to do this, and EVERY driver was doing it during both SC periods, in every race that an SC car has been required. Schu was only doing what other drivers were doing at EXACTLY the same time.

The ONLY difference is that the Magnificent Montoya (who was also apparantly a lap down on Schu) drove so closely and at such a high speed that he couldn't take avoiding action, when it is COMMON knowledge amongst the drivers, that the you need to carry out such maneuvers to bring up tyre and brake temp.

Here's a quote from Trulli...

"I tried to keep my distance from them," said the Italian. "Montoya wasn't leaving any space between himself and the Ferrari.* They were really fast down to Mirabeau.* I thought 'maybe they're going to crash'."

Montoya wasn't leaving any space... well there you go... ;)


If drivers start breaking all over the place then there will be a spate of accidents followed by a complete lack of overtaking as no driver will be willing to slipstream another.

And that has absolutely nothing to do with what happens whilst following a SC. :rolleyes: you don't need to be slipstreaming the car in front doing 80mph behind an SC. period. :rolleyes:

[Belly-laughs]

Why is it??

If you're stuck on someone's bumper, and they have to brake suddenly, because say a child runs out in front of them, and because you're so close to them that you can't react quick enough to stop before hitting them, then it's the following driver who is at fault.

It's not the other drivers fault for braking heavily to avoid an accident, it's the driver behind for not giving himself enough space to stop. Hence the 'without due care and attention'.

Remember only a fool breaks the 2 second rule. ;)

Interestingly, according to recent stats released here, women are more likely to crash into somebody from behind than be hit from behind by a man ;)

Relax, I know. It was a joke. Now, seriously, if you look at the incident, it looks to me as Montoya saw his only way out trying to avoid hitting the Ferrari by going between Schumi and the right hand wall of the tunnel. The contact happened when the Ferrari closed the gap. So to Montoya´s defence, it looked like he tried to avoid contact, only to be squashed between the Ferrari and the wall.

[iGav]

Relax, I know. It was a joke.

I missed that... :eek: :D :)

heheh, it's hard to know if people are aware of these things (not everyone is a driver for example) or maybe laws are different in other countries etc etc... :)


Now, seriously, if you look at the incident, it looks to me as Montoya saw his only way out trying to avoid hitting the Ferrari by going between Schumi and the right hand wall of the tunnel. The contact happened when the Ferrari closed the gap. So to Montoya´s defence, it looked like he tried to avoid contact, only to be squashed between the Ferrari and the wall.

I've seen it many a time now... heheh,

I don't think Montoya purposely took him out, they're both competitive son's of b*tches which is what makes it so frustrating, yet so fun (it's the nearest we've got to the Prost/Senna fued), and they are both awesome drivers.

But I just think there was no need for Montoya to be tailgating him only halfway around lap. He certainly made an effort to avoid the collision, but he put himself in that position, when he really didn't need to.

Anyway... onto the 'Ring. :D

[takao]

i would say it's a
55-60 percent montoya's fault
45-40 percent M. schumacher's

but for the alonso-ralf accident...well that is a complete different story.... :rolleyes:

[iGav]

but for the alonso-ralf accident...well that is a complete different story.... :rolleyes:

Ralf is abit of a hazard lately isn't he. :eek: :rolleyes:

[Counterfit]

I think it's funny how Alonso managed to flip off Ralf while he was still crashing :p

And the last few laps of this year where quite similar to the last few laps of last year, With JPM leading Kimi by very little, then Schumi joining with about 5 laps left.

[CmdrLaForge]

Ralf is abit of a hazard lately isn't he. :eek: :rolleyes:

Well, do you mean that it was Ralfs fault that Alonso tried to overtake him at 300km/h on the dirty side of the street and then couldn't manage to stay on the street because the grip suddenly dropped ?

[JFreak]

Well, do you mean that it was Ralfs fault that Alonso tried to overtake him at 300km/h on the dirty side of the street and then couldn't manage to stay on the street because the grip suddenly dropped ?

ralf was blue-flagged many corners ago, so it was ralf who should've driven the dirty side, not alonso. plus, in the tunel, something weird was going on. ralf braked, accelerated, and braked again, and effectively got alonso confused what's he doing.

nobody really knows, but ralf cannot avoid the fact that he is involved in many such dubious accidents...

[CmdrLaForge]

ralf was blue-flagged many corners ago, so it was ralf who should've driven the dirty side, not alonso. plus, in the tunel, something weird was going on. ralf braked, accelerated, and braked again, and effectively got alonso confused what's he doing.

Ha ha ha ! Alsonos was completely confused by Ralf and then forgot NOT to drive on the dirty side of the road in a curve at 300km/h :D :D :D

That is really funny.

Well, I think we can put for this accident aside what Ralf did in previous corners.
If he ignored the blue flag, stewards of the race must give him a drive through penality.

[iGav]

If he ignored the blue flag, stewards of the race must give him a drive through penality.

The stewarding at this race were some of the worst I can remember.

They didn't pick up on Sato's dodge jump start. Then after Sato blew up, first they put the Red flag out, and then the SC came out :rolleyes:

After Klein went off into the barrier, a steward was standing bang on the racing line, and several cars had to take avoiding action to miss him.

Button has said that De Matta held him up for almost 4 laps, totally ignoring blue flags, and only got a drive through after the damage was done.

And Ralf with a shafted car (losing gears) continued to drive around ignoring several blue flags... Williams should have pulled him in to retire, just seeing the carnage Sato's accident caused at the start should have made them do that.

Ralf is just driving really poorly at the moment, Montoya is crucifying him at every race, and Ralf is getting himself tangled up in all kinds of bother, particularly Bahrain, but it's not the only time that has happened.

[JFreak]

That is really funny.

actually, no. ralf had a malfunctioning gearbox and he stated that he only had the fourth gear available during that accident, so that's why he was driving slower than alonso thought he were.

the race stewards should have given him the black flag for technical problems, if the situation was that bad ralf stated. why they didn't react? nobody knows.

had alonso had more experience he wouldn't have crashed, period.

[CmdrLaForge]

had alonso had more experience he wouldn't have crashed, period.

Thats what I was saying. The crash was Alonso fault

And yes you are right. Ralf is a poor driver and I don't understand why he is ignoring blue flags or even staying on the track with a defect car.

And yes. The stewards of that race where really really bad. All points iGav mentioned are true. I saw the red flag as well - and then SC ?!?!?
:mad:

Thats not acceptable.

[ianboro]

I watched the best Grand Prix in ages this weekend.

Firstly Montoya did take avoiding action in the tunnel and was alongside the Ferrari which Schumi instinctively or habitually turned right into him, This bounced Schumi up and the momentum pushed him across the track into the wall. The irony is that Montoya would have probably got a drive thru for overtaking behind the safety car.
Had Montoya hit him from behind with this much forct it would have broken montoya's nose cone or front wing off.

I am amazed nobody noticed this and nobody recalls the immediate "talking too" Schumi got behind a clipboard as he got out of the car. Presumably saying don't speak about this until we sort out the press release.

The Alonso crash in the tunnel is more ambiguous as Fernando's rage at the time could really be frustration with himself for a schoolboy error, or aimed at Ralph for either refusing to see blue flags or brake testing him.

Surely both brothers telemetry can confirm Alonso's allegations that Ralph stamped on the brakes and the odd steering inputs of the Ferrari

[JFreak]

Thats what I was saying. The crash was Alonso fault.

well it wasn't alonso's fault, but had he been more experienced, he could have easily avoided the incident. it was ralf or the race stewards who whould take the blame, but hey... at the end of the day it is the driver who need to make the decisions, and in that light you're right: alonso screwed up.

but it wasn't his FAULT.

[iGav]

Firstly Montoya did take avoiding action in the tunnel

We know that... ;) he had to, because he was driving too fast without leaving enough space. :rolleyes: Trulli has already said that Montoya was hassling Schu all the way around the lap, and he (Trulli) kept a safe distance, like all the other drivers were doing in the pack at the same time. ;)

There was no need to for Montoya to be sat on Schu's gearbox, when he was a lap down, he wasn't even fighting for position... that makes it even more absurd for him to be hassling, as even if he could've overtaken Schu once the race was restarted, it wouldn't have been for position. :rolleyes:

What I don't understand is how the stewards could say it was a "racing incident" when it was NOT under "green flag" race conditions?? :eek: :rolleyes:

Either way Schu's comment I thought, was a real kick in the balls... heheh

The situation is that the race leader was knocked out of the race after being hit by a backmarker. backmarker... :p :p :p

[Counterfit]

the race stewards should have given him the black flag for technical problems, if the situation was that bad ralf stated. why they didn't react? nobody knows. I'm not sure that they would be able to tell. Spain '94, Michael could only use 5th gear after the first stop. No black flag, and he even managed to finish second.

[CmdrLaForge]

I'm not sure that they would be able to tell. Spain '94, Michael could only use 5th gear after the first stop. No black flag, and he even managed to finish second.

Yes you are right. I think it somehow depends on the top speed a car can go and if its a pain in the ass for all the others trying to pass this car. Michael finished second - so can't really say he stopped others from competing :D