Why doesn't Apple try to make Windows as seamless as OS X?

[dotdotdot]

Though at first it seems obvious why Apple would not put all their effort into making Windows run as flawlessly as OS X on their hardware, after thinking about it Apple should try and make Windows on the Mac run as seamlessly as possible.

Yes, one would think that if someone puts Windows on a MacBook Pro and finds annoyances, they would switch to the Mac OS. But this is not usually the case - people will keep using Windows, even with its flaws which are mostly due to Apple's bad drivers, because many people are simply unable to leave that platform.

If I bought an Apple product, put Windows on it, and it ran just as well or better than an equivalent Windows-based laptop, it would surely reinforce the notion that Apple is synonymous with quality and care. But when a cheap $500 laptop can run Windows better than a $3000 MacBook Pro, it just negatively reflects on the company.

Why can't Apple try and optimize the battery life in Windows, allow 9400m graphics, monitor fan control, and turn off the backlight on the keyboard?

[TJRiver]

Have at him boys..................:D

[steveza]

It's a good question. Microsoft has to ensure that their software runs on every possible hardware configuration - Windows 7 will even 'run' on a Pentium 2 from 1997 - but Apple only has two platforms to worry about. With the release of SL that will reduce to one. I know that Microsoft tests the software patches it releases in boot camp to make sure there aren't an incompatibilities. The beta release of XP Service Pack 3 even mentioned boot camp in it's release notes.

I think the SL version of boot camp will play better with Windows so maybe Apple have actually tried to make some improvements in this area.

[Anuba]

Obviously they want it to make it look as crap as possible, but I found it fairly easy to bypass those obstacles and get a kickass Win7 x64 installation up and running.

Initially I was concerned about things I've heard about Boot Camp on unibody MBPs - overheating, bluescreens and poor battery life - but I'm not noticing any of that. The temperatures are fine, a couple degrees more than in OS X but lightyears from overheating. Battery life is great; obviously 9400M is a no-go but I get the same battery life in Win7 as I get with the 9600M in Leopard. All drivers are working perfectly, and for an RC, Win7 is in amazing shape.

I'll still be using OS X for music production -- Microsoft has a lot of work left to do in terms of native low-latency support, aggregate audio interfaces etc -- and I'm really looking forward to taking Snow Leopard for a spin... but I couldn't possibly find myself leaving Win7 for Leopard, the Vista of the OS X family. After god knows how many maintenance updates of Leopard, I'm still having more issues in this supposedly mature version of Leopard than I have in the Win7 RC. On a Mac. Annoying little crashes and freezing, occasional inability to shut down/reboot, third party stuff like Logitech drivers are awful -- not Apple's fault, but still a detriment to the user experience.

I wouldn't hold my breath for Apple improving Boot Camp support in any meaningful way, or implement full trackpad functionality with the Win7 multitouch API, but whatever... as long as they provide support for stuff like the pure Apple stuff like the keyboard and the backlight adjustment, the OEMs will take it from there.

[stainlessliquid]

I just wish the trackpad wasnt such a piece of crap in Windows. I cant stand not being able to tap to click, all PC laptops Ive ever tried have supported this.

[Anuba]

I just wish the trackpad wasnt such a piece of crap in Windows. I cant stand not being able to tap to click, all PC laptops Ive ever tried have supported this.
Huh? Tap to click works fine in Windows, you just have to enable it in the Boot Camp settings. Tap with one finger for left-click, two fingers for right-click.

The real bummer is that it doesn't disable the trackpad while you're typing, but I guess I can live with that.

[stainlessliquid]

Oh, it must be new, thank god

[Galley]

Install Windows on a Mac? That's crazy talk! :eek:

[Nohg]

What I wish they'd do is make their own built-in version of MacDrive.

Apple pioneered HFS, and if a third party can make the disks display (most of the time) Apple should be able to do it ten times better.


I mean, that would really make Windows on the Mac seamless.

[Stridder44]

If I bought an Apple product, put Windows on it, and it ran just as well or better than an equivalent Windows-based laptop, it would surely reinforce the notion that Apple is synonymous with quality and care. But when a cheap $500 laptop can run Windows better than a $3000 MacBook Pro, it just negatively reflects on the company.

This is just plain false. A $500 laptop cannot run Windows better than a MacBook Pro. Yes, the Boot Camp drivers are pretty old now (they're pretty terrible actually), but that will (hopefully) change with Snow Leopard. As long as you install Boot Camp 2.1 and the latest video card driver, a MBP would run circles around that crappy little $500 laptop. In fact, PCWorld rated the MacBook Pro as the fastest Windows Vista laptop (http://www.pcworld.com/article/136649-3/in_pictures_the_most_notable_notebooks_of_2007.html) in 2007. 2007, yes I know, but I'm just making a point.

What I wish they'd do is make their own built-in version of MacDrive.

Well, Apple is actually doing just that in Snow Leopard; HFS+ (read only) drivers for Windows. Now you can access you HFS formatted drive(s) from Windows just like you would any regular NTFS formatted drive.

[The Flashing Fi]

Huh? Tap to click works fine in Windows, you just have to enable it in the Boot Camp settings. Tap with one finger for left-click, two fingers for right-click.

The real bummer is that it doesn't disable the trackpad while you're typing, but I guess I can live with that.

Only works on the unibody Macbooks and Macbook Pros. Older models are just SOL.

Have at him boys..................:D

You act as if he's not bringing up valid points. His points are all very valid.

Apple's Boot Camp drivers are absolute crap. Why doesn't the web cam on my Macbook Pro work in Vista or Windows 7 (it does in XP though). Why no tap to click on older Macbook Pros? Why do we not see regular driver updates for Windows from Apple?

To my knowledge, there has been one driver package update from Apple for older Macbook Pros. For people with Macbook Pros from 2007, before Apple supplied 64-bit drivers with newer Macbook Pros, we have to hunt down 64-bit drivers for our Macs, even though our laptops are fully 64-bit capable and fully capable of using 4 gigs of RAM.

Our trackpads are capable of tap to click in Mac OS X, so what's stopping Apple from releasing drivers that include tap to click for older Macbook Pros? Not a damn thing. Every other manufacturer has offered tap to click since Windows 95 on their laptops, yet I don't get it because Apple can't be arsed to support their bloody product?:confused:

[Nohg]

Well, Apple is actually doing just that in Snow Leopard; HFS+ (read only)

So, the Mac Drives will be read only? Read/write would be more useful IMO, as a simple app like HFS explorer can handle the reading.

But, it's good to know Apple's gonna take a crack at that, thanks!

[Stridder44]

So, the Mac Drives will be read only? Read/write would be more useful IMO, as a simple app like HFS explorer can handle the reading.

But, it's good to know Apple's gonna take a crack at that, thanks!

Yes. When you open My Computer, you'll see your NTFS formatted partition (the Windows drives) and the HFS+ partitions (the OS X drives), but you'll only be able to read them. Which honestly is a good thing.

[Nohg]

Oh well, I suppose it's rather like having to choose between one eye and being totally blind, I'll take the one eye.

Thanks for the infos.

[jaw04005]

So, the Mac Drives will be read only? Read/write would be more useful IMO, as a simple app like HFS explorer can handle the reading.

Apple's HFS+ read support likely ignores file permissions just like Apple's NTFS read support in Leopard. Therefore, the chances of critical system files or data being accidentally modified within Boot Camp would be significant.

I've corrupted my Mac partition using MediaFour's MacDrive before. It's fairly easy to do, and I would consider myself an advanced user.

You could always create a small FAT partition to share and modify files between the two partitions.

[NovemberWhiskey]

I totally agree with you, OP.

I love OS X, I love Apple, but at this point in time, I cannot live without windows.

Gates and Msft just made the right business plays early on, and currently Windows is the dominant force in the software/OS market. I wish it were different, but nothing can change the fact that they are and that many people still need to be able to run windows for work.

As long as they are, and as long as Apple promotes bootcamp as a way to run windows on an Apple, I think they should put out the best support for Bootcamp.

I keep hearing that Win7 works very well in bootcamp, and I really hope this is the case. I will def be running win 7 via bootcamp or Vmware.

[blackhand1001]

This is just plain false. A $500 laptop cannot run Windows better than a MacBook Pro. Yes, the Boot Camp drivers are pretty old now (they're pretty terrible actually), but that will (hopefully) change with Snow Leopard. As long as you install Boot Camp 2.1 and the latest video card driver, a MBP would run circles around that crappy little $500 laptop. In fact, PCWorld rated the MacBook Pro as the fastest Windows Vista laptop (http://www.pcworld.com/article/136649-3/in_pictures_the_most_notable_notebooks_of_2007.html) in 2007. 2007, yes I know, but I'm just making a point.



Well, Apple is actually doing just that in Snow Leopard; HFS+ (read only) drivers for Windows. Now you can access you HFS formatted drive(s) from Windows just like you would any regular NTFS formatted drive.
The whole macbook pro being the fastest windows vista laptop was a bunch of ************ anyway. There were far faster laptops out at the time with REAL graphics cards (quadro/firegl or gaming cards) and core 2 extreme processors.

[Stridder44]

The whole macbook pro being the fastest windows vista laptop was a bunch of ************ anyway. There were far faster laptops out at the time with REAL graphics cards (quadro/firegl or gaming cards) and core 2 extreme processors.

You mean like that Alienware crap that weighs 20 pounds and has a 10 minute battery life and cost 4 grand? Yeah, totally mobile. But I'm glad to read your in-depth explanation of why it was "a bunch of ************". :rolleyes:

[Anuba]

Apple's Boot Camp drivers are absolute crap. Why doesn't the web cam on my Macbook Pro work in Vista or Windows 7 (it does in XP though). Why no tap to click on older Macbook Pros? Why do we not see regular driver updates for Windows from Apple?
iSight also works fine on unibody MBPs, but anyway -- this has nothing to do with Apple's reluctance to support Windows properly, this is about Apple pooping on customers who haven't given them more money in the last 10 minutes. You mean nothing to them after you've made a purchase. They only have their eyes on the present and the future and never gave a rat's ass about legacy compatibility and support.

The other day I installed a music app called ReBirth on a Windows 7 machine. It's a great little program, but the final version was released in 1998. In that time, Apple has...

1) Ditched their OS and built a new one from scratch
2) Made a half-assed attempt at legacy support through Classic mode (ReBirth never worked in Classic... nothing that relied on low latency audio did), only to scrap it shortly thereafter
3) Switched from PPC to Intel
4) (soon) ditched PPC support in the upcoming version of OS X

So there's not only one but four brick walls between OS X and ReBirth. Mac users can still enjoy ReBirth, though... in Windows. To run a native Mac app from 1998 you basically need a Mac from 1998 with whatever OS version it shipped with. I fully expect every little third party thingamabob like DivX, Logitech Control Center etc to stop working when Snow Leopard is released (and/or wreak havoc on the system, causing perpetual blue screens or whatever) because Apple just can't be arsed to worry about support for anything except their own software. Meanwhile, Microsoft are bending over backwards to make everything old and new work with Win7, and they'll release compatibility updates for stuff that won't work, and if that's not doing the trick you can try running the apps in compatibility mode for any earlier Windows version of your choice, and if that doesn't work you can try the virtual XP mode that's included with all high-end version of Win7. A lot can be said of the boys in Redmond, but you certainly can't excuse them of jamming their heads in the sand when it comes to legacy support.

[nbnbcar]

Though at first it seems obvious why Apple would not

[FCzenit]

Though at first it seems obvious why Apple would not put all their effort into making Windows run as flawlessly as OS X on their hardware, after thinking about it Apple should try and make Windows on the Mac run as seamlessly as possible.

Yes, one would think that if someone puts Windows on a MacBook Pro and finds annoyances, they would switch to the Mac OS. But this is not usually the case - people will keep using Windows, even with its flaws which are mostly due to Apple's bad drivers, because many people are simply unable to leave that platform.

If I bought an Apple product, put Windows on it, and it ran just as well or better than an equivalent Windows-based laptop, it would surely reinforce the notion that Apple is synonymous with quality and care. But when a cheap $500 laptop can run Windows better than a $3000 MacBook Pro, it just negatively reflects on the company.

Why can't Apple try and optimize the battery life in Windows, allow 9400m graphics, monitor fan control, and turn off the backlight on the keyboard?

What does he mean by the part that I highlighted?? :confused::eek:

[Anuba]

What does he mean by the part that I highlighted?? :confused::eek:
You can't use the integrated 9400M GPU in Windows, it defaults to the faster but more energy consuming 9600M. Windows would detect it on a normal PC, but not a unibody MBP...

[palane]

Why can't Apple try and optimize the battery life in Windows, allow 9400m graphics, monitor fan control, and turn off the backlight on the keyboard?

That would be the job of VM/Ware etc.

BB

[Mackan]

Battery life is great; obviously 9400M is a no-go but I get the same battery life in Win7 as I get with the 9600M in Leopard. All drivers are working perfectly, and for an RC, Win7 is in amazing shape.

I am surprised. Running XP, Vista or 7 on my Unibody Macbook with the 9400M gives at best half the battery life of what I get in Leopard. I've checked the power consumption in Watts as well. Suddenly both Leopard and Windows are equal in battery life with the 9600M?

Particulary the lack of power management drivers for Boot Camp, and terrible trackpad support make my MacBook almost unusable as a portable machine when running Windows. It makes me angry how Apple don't give a **** about me, their customer, if I run Windows, which they advertise support for via Boot Camp.

Obviously, I have doubts of buying any more Apple hardware even if I like their design and products.

[Consultant]

Thanks for the laugh.

Windows is windows. It's buggy, poorly designed, and inefficient. Apple hardware is not going to make windows, a poorly put together knockoff, run like OSX.

I just wish the trackpad wasnt such a piece of crap in Windows. I cant stand not being able to tap to click, all PC laptops Ive ever tried have supported this.

Tab to click on pc is there because
- pc use very tiny trackpads which won't be hit accidentially by user's hand, but also means it lacks accuracy due to small size
- very tiny trackpads = very tiny buttons, hard to use, thus need to use the trackpad to tab

Macs have
- Large trackpads that ignores accidental input
- Much larger button
so there is no need for the pc tiny trackpad workaround, but it's there if you want it.

I am surprised. Running XP, Vista or 7 on my Unibody Macbook with the 9400M gives at best half the battery life of what I get in Leopard. I've checked the power consumption in Watts as well. Suddenly both Leopard and Windows are equal in battery life with the 9600M?

Particulary the lack of power management drivers for Boot Camp, and terrible trackpad support make my MacBook almost unusable as a portable machine when running Windows. It makes me angry how Apple don't give a **** about me, their customer, if I run Windows, which they advertise support for via Boot Camp.

Ever use a pc laptop? Same behavior as any laptops running windows. Apple does not advertise boot camp will equal to osx at all.

You need to update the nvidia drivers. Just because you don't know how to update video drivers (defaults to the more power hungry discreet card) you shouldn't blame it on apple. Nvidia does the GPU drivers in windows. Apple has nothing to do with it.

[Tallest Skil]

Why should Apple help their competitor?

Let them flounder.

Oh, but Apple IS trying to make the Boot Camp experience better, and in Snow Leopard, we're reportedly getting HFS+ read/write support to read/write the OS X partition from within Windows.

[windywoo]

Apple aren't competing with Microsoft on any sort of scale that matters. Fact is, they are dependent on Windows users since they represent the majority of their iPhone and iPod users.

If Apple pride themselves on delivering high performance goods and their goods are not performing they should be addressing that. Microsoft can't' be blamed in this situation; they provide the OS, its up to Apple to provide decent drivers.

[andiwm2003]

i haven't read all of the thread so sorry if it has been answered: don't parallels and other virtualization apps solve those problems?

[jaw04005]

Why should Apple help their competitor?

Let them flounder.

Your comment makes little sense considering Apple is the OEM. It's Apple's responsibility to maintain the driver catalog for its hardware.

Most of the Boot Camp drivers are provided by Apple's third-party suppliers anyway (ATI, Nvidia, Realtek, Intel, etc). It would take minimal work on Apple's part to release a Boot Camp driver update every three or so months.

Oh, but Apple IS trying to make the Boot Camp experience better, and in Snow Leopard, we're reportedly getting HFS+ read/write support to read/write the OS X partition from within Windows.

We're getting read, not write, support in Snow Leopard as already mentioned above.

HFS+ read support in Boot Camp.
Boot Camp now includes HFS+ read support that enables you to access the files on your Mac OS X partition from Windows. It’s read-only to prevent PC viruses from affecting Mac OS X, but you can easily save your work to your Windows partition and access it later from Mac OS X.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/refinements/enhancements-refinements.html

[Anuba]

i haven't read all of the thread so sorry if it has been answered: don't parallels and other virtualization apps solve those problems?
Sure, but virtualization is slow as molasses and provides a crippled Windows experience without Aero and without access to the better part of the hardware resources (RAM, CPU cores). It's about as slow and jerky as screen sharing between two Macs. Parallels is great if you need to do some quick lightweight work and can't be arsed to reboot into Windows, but it's not a functional working environment, more like a Windows simulator.
Tab to click on pc is there because
- pc use very tiny trackpads which won't be hit accidentially by user's hand, but also means it lacks accuracy due to small size
- very tiny trackpads = very tiny buttons, hard to use, thus need to use the trackpad to tab
Right, and tap-to-click is available in OS X because the idiot who designed the trackpad to act as a mega-button made it so hard to press (and uneven) that it makes a clicking noise so loud it wakes the neighbors. When I was on a PC I was able to work late at night without waking my girlfriend... then I got a Mac with its awful startup BINGGGGG!!!! that I had to hush with third party sysprefs, and a trackpad that goes CLICK CLACK THUMP no matter how softly you try to press it. Multitouch works as advertised, but clicking is awful -- I enabled tap-to-click 2 minutes after unboxing my MBP.
You need to update the nvidia drivers. Just because you don't know how to update video drivers (defaults to the more power hungry discreet card) you shouldn't blame it on apple. Nvidia does the GPU drivers in windows. Apple has nothing to do with it.
Apple has tweaked the way the hardware is wired which is why standard Windows drivers don't work in some cases, and the iSight is proprietary and couldn't possibly work in Windows without Apple's assistance. Windows 7 has installed on every single PC I've tried without needing to download drivers from third parties, until I tried on the MBP 17". The horrible Realtek soundchip that Apple uses (worst S/N ratio ever, constant popping and glitching in both OS X and Windows) can normally use the default HD Audio Codec, but on Macs that doesn't work. So yeah, it's perfectly reasonable to blame Apple. It's a PC with custom Apple tweaks (no BIOS etc) and if Apple advertises Windows compatibility then it's their responsibility to make sure that compatibility goes all the way.

[Eidorian]

It's quite annoying to have to go out of my way to get a disc image of a newer version of Boot Camp online because my MacBook didn't ship with 64-bit drivers.

The Boot Camp driver package and how Apple is handling deployment is miserable. You'd have to keep buying new hardware just to get the latest package.

[stainlessliquid]

When you open My Computer, you'll see your NTFS formatted partition (the Windows drives) and the HFS+ partitions (the OS X drives), but you'll only be able to read them. Which honestly is a good thing.
Its not a good thing when you want to share a data partition between them without using useless fat32.

You have to wonder though, maybe the reason the 9600 is forced instead of the 9400 is because Apple doesnt want OSX to look bad since Windows can switch video cards on the fly. It wouldnt be the first time they do something like that.

[blackhand1001]

You mean like that Alienware crap that weighs 20 pounds and has a 10 minute battery life and cost 4 grand? Yeah, totally mobile. But I'm glad to read your in-depth explanation of why it was "a bunch of ************". :rolleyes:

I am not talking about the alienware system (I mentioned quadro eg. professional machines) and am not saying that the macbook pro is a bad product. What i am saying is that their were much faster laptops out at the time and that the whole thing was not true. Any of dell precision line was faster as was many thinkpads and HP elitebooks. The macbook pro at that time either used the radeon 1600xt or the 8600m gt. There were other laptops with the quadro 3600m. That card is 3 times as fast as the 8600m gt and probably 4-5 times as fast as the radeon. And if your doing anything in maya its probably 8-10 times as fast than cpu rendering. And if your worried about battery life these cards have REAL powermizer and are much more agressive at saving power.

[andiwm2003]

Sure, but virtualization is slow as molasses and provides a crippled Windows experience without Aero and without access to the better part of the hardware resources (RAM, CPU cores). It's about as slow and jerky as screen sharing between two Macs. Parallels is great if you need to do some quick lightweight work and can't be arsed to reboot into Windows, but it's not a functional working environment, more like a Windows simulator.

................................................

Well, i have parallels from a macheist bundle. i might give it a try if i have some spare time. i thought it was 80% as fast as bootcamp (not including gaming) and allows file transfers and runs all hardware (camera, FW, USB) and such. I thought for office use and email, surfing, Picasa it would be fine.

[CrazyLexx]

Huh? Tap to click works fine in Windows, you just have to enable it in the Boot Camp settings.
Nope, those drivers only work on MB/Ps with a multitouch touchpad on it. :mad::mad:

[Hugh]

Install Windows on a Mac? That's crazy talk! :eek:

My roommate has my Mac Mini Solo and he as XP home on it ONLY. It has no Mac OS X installed. Although we had to use the drives from the DVD. :eek:

And just for a side note: He says this is the best computer he had. He hardly get any crashes, BSOD and so on.... He's have had a lot of computers over the years. They just didn't hold up compared to Mac Mini.

Now he wishes that he could use a Mac and sat goodbye to Windows. He can't because he is blind that force him to use a screen reader. The one he likes is JAWS. I don't know why there can't be a good screen reader for the Mac. :confused:

Yes I know in some screen reading build into Mac OS X, but it's not good enough to:

To move around the computer you still need a mouse.

::: Looks at what he just wrote ::::

Sorry for going off topic there, I just like to tell people that my roommate is using my Mac Mini for a Win Home...........

Hugh

[Nohg]

Anyone looking to make their video drivers more up to date should look into:

http://laptopvideo2go.com/


Bit hard to understand their modded INF system at first, but I eventually got it sorted, and can update Nvidia drivers.


Most of you already know of this, but for those that don't....there you are.

[Eidorian]

Anyone looking to make their video drivers more up to date should look into:

http://laptopvideo2go.com/


Bit hard to understand their modded INF system at first, but I eventually got it sorted, and can update Nvidia drivers.


Most of you already know of this, but for those that don't....there you are.nVidia now provides mobile drivers now on their website.

[dotdotdot]

I would like to add that I just downloaded the Boot Camp 3.0 drivers that will come with Snow Leopard, and on the older MacBooks that used to not have Tap to Click, tap to click (and 2 finger tap to right click) now works. Two finger scrolling is also better on these laptops.

So finally, in mid-2009, two years after my mid-2007 MacBook was purchased, Windows runs well.

There doesn't seem to be any power changing settings however. I really hope the new MacBooks and Unibody MacBook Pros will see improvements in Snow Leopard as well.

[Eidorian]

Was this in Windows 7? The two finger scroll drivers in 2.1 are terrible in 7.

[dotdotdot]

Was this in Windows 7? The two finger scroll drivers in 2.1 are terrible in 7.

Yeah, this is Windows 7, and the new 3.0 drivers are much better in this release for the trackpad.

----------

On a side note, just today I encountered a scenario where my friend was fully prepared to buy a 17" MacBook Pro but needs Windows for some college classes, but really wanted a Mac as well for editing video, and thanks to Apple's shoddy Windows drivers, particularly his concern that a $3,000 laptop would have a shortened lifespan due to overheating, he chose to buy a PC (the Dell Studio XPS 16) instead.

Just an example of how Apple making Windows perfect on their hardware would lead to more people using OS X as well.

[Eidorian]

The Dell Studio XPS 16 is a nice machine. Did you take a look at Apple's refurbished MacBook Pros though? The 9600M GT models are starting at $1,349.

[Gyrferret]

Only works on the unibody Macbooks and Macbook Pros. Older models are just SOL.


My "tap to click" is weird. Tap to click works. To right click, however, I have to use THREE fingers and physically CLICK the trackpad. It's a weird thing...



That's the reason I enabled it. I HATED being in my college class and having to hear myself clicking every couple of seconds. So friggin' loud..... seriously.....

[spinedoc77]

Any links?

I would like to add that I just downloaded the Boot Camp 3.0 drivers that will come with Snow Leopard, and on the older MacBooks that used to not have Tap to Click, tap to click (and 2 finger tap to right click) now works. Two finger scrolling is also better on these laptops.

So finally, in mid-2009, two years after my mid-2007 MacBook was purchased, Windows runs well.

There doesn't seem to be any power changing settings however. I really hope the new MacBooks and Unibody MacBook Pros will see improvements in Snow Leopard as well.

[w00t951]

Apple's Boot Camp Drivers are all terrible. However, you should update all of the ones that are not completely Apple hardware. One of the major ones is the NVIDIA drivers, and I am still waiting for updated Intel drivers. Everything else except for the trackpad works pretty well.

[Mackan]

Thanks for the laugh.

Windows is windows. It's buggy, poorly designed, and inefficient. Apple hardware is not going to make windows, a poorly put together knockoff, run like OSX.



Tab to click on pc is there because
- pc use very tiny trackpads which won't be hit accidentially by user's hand, but also means it lacks accuracy due to small size
- very tiny trackpads = very tiny buttons, hard to use, thus need to use the trackpad to tab

Macs have
- Large trackpads that ignores accidental input
- Much larger button
so there is no need for the pc tiny trackpad workaround, but it's there if you want it.



Ever use a pc laptop? Same behavior as any laptops running windows. Apple does not advertise boot camp will equal to osx at all.

You need to update the nvidia drivers. Just because you don't know how to update video drivers (defaults to the more power hungry discreet card) you shouldn't blame it on apple. Nvidia does the GPU drivers in windows. Apple has nothing to do with it.

You are one of those clueless Apple fanboys. A shame.

[Infrared]

Why should Apple help their competitor?

Let them flounder.

Oh, but Apple IS trying to make the Boot Camp experience better, and in Snow Leopard, we're reportedly getting HFS+ read/write support to read/write the OS X partition from within Windows.

While that isn't such a bad idea, Apple ought to concentrate
on the fundamentals first and get those done right.

[DataCabbitKSW]

I bought a new laptop for my ex about 6 months back, and it had a gaming level graphics card, running a core 2 Duo 2.6Ghz, 64-bit Vista (we will switch this to Windows 7 when it comes out on October 22nd) and 4GB of RAM. DVD-RW, good networking, bluetooth, large hard drive (250GB is large for a laptop) and a decent built in web-cam. It cost US$750 before tax/shipping. Besides a snazzy case, the multitouch trackpad, and the backlit keys, it features darn near all the _HARDWARE_ capabilities you could get in a MacBookPro. Mind you I own a bit older MBP (and dual-boot 10.5 and Windows 7). I'll need to try out the new 3.0 beta BootCamp driver set. There are some tweaked and proprietary devices in Apple's equipment that could work wonderfully in Windows (and linux) if they put in the effort. I applaud that they are getting some of it to work passably, but they could do so much more. I will have to agree that Windows has never been really good for low-latency audio work. They have improved the audio interfaces as far as usability and mixer issues in Windows 7, but I really can't say as I don't do music authoring on a level any farther than amateur, and haven't installed my sequencing software on my Windows 7 RC box, nor the dual-boot section of my MBP. I would be really surprised if they enabled real multi-touch capability with the newer touchpads under Windows 7. Right now the multi-touch is really designed to work for touchscreen style. Still, being able to adapt it to a smaller pad would be nice. I currently do stuff with a Wacom tablet for pen-input things, as I don't have a touchscreenmachine, let alone a multi-touch capable.

Enough with my rambling though. The basic point I have to make is that Windows 7 runs pretty well as-is on Apple hardware, but it could run a lot better given proper support for Apple's proprietary modifications. There are laptops that are cheaper and just as capable hardware-wise as Apple's MB and MBP. They may not be as sexy externally, but they certainly fill all the different portions more than adequately and at a lesser price. For those of us who do have MB/MBP, we would certainly appreciate it if we could get the full usage of the hardware. We almost can, but there are specific, noticeable things lacking. Hopefully this will change.

[Leo72]

I hope that SL will support NTFS completely, because i don't want to use a third party software, i need a good performance :D.

[ajpl]

Thanks for the laugh.

Windows is windows. It's buggy, poorly designed, and inefficient. Apple hardware is not going to make windows, a poorly put together knockoff, run like OSX.Leopard is very buggy, I'm on the 6th bug fix [10.5.7] and considering Finder is part of OSX how on earth can you think it efficient. First thing I do with a new mac install is make sure Finder is used as little as possible or modified to work less badly. PathFinder and Default FolderX help a lot, without them, I would not bother with OSX.
I use both OSs, side by side. Both are better at some things than the other. But Apple software is often simplistic, not simple and at times really difficult to use as a result. You will probably laugh at me for saying such a heinous thing, but i came across an interesting article a few days ago which basically said exactly the same thing, though it was phrased slightly differently. As this article was written by someone who worked at Apple for a long time and was responsible for lots of their fundamental UI stuff, maybe his view may count for more, despite being fundamentally the same as mine.
http://www.asktog.com/columns/075AppleFlatlandPart1.html



Tab to click on pc is there because ...[ It's very useful.
- pc use very tiny trackpads which won't be hit accidentially by user's hand, but also means it lacks accuracy due to small size
- very tiny trackpads = very tiny buttons, hard to use, thus need to use the trackpad to tab bigger is not necessarily better and having separate buttons is easier for some work. mouse gestures are a pain to do with the Apple no button trackpad, a doddle on any other. Also to underline what you say is fanboi bollox, there's a PC on desk here next to me with massive buttons. In fact they are slightly more than a third of the size of the current Mac trackpad. I find I rarely make mistakes with PC trackpads, even ones with small buttons, but often do with the new MacBook design.

Macs have
- Large trackpads that ignores accidental input After a lot of complaining how dreadful it was otherwise. It's still very easy to right click by accident. And the tap click is very, very temperamental in use.

- Much larger button
so there is no need for the pc tiny trackpad workaround, but it's there if you want it.It's not a workaround, it was simply a good idea first used on PCs and ignored by Apple for a long time as they are too up themselves to ever admit MS did things first/better. Just like the idiocy regarding single button mice despite how clumsy they are in comparison to multibutton mice with scroll wheels. Besides Apple only recently had big trackpads and can only do that by using a crappy compromised keyboard with buttons missing. I have a 13" PC with much better ergonomics than my MBP 17" and no sharp abrasive edges to irritate one's forearms like the new MBP has. Which is a remarkable dreadful design and shows how little function plays a part in designing Apple kit compared to looks.
I also use tap click as it's sooooo much easier than actually clicking with the Apple trackpad and also I don't annoy others with it's loud click.

[Gav Mack]

I would like to add that I just downloaded the Boot Camp 3.0 drivers that will come with Snow Leopard, and on the older MacBooks that used to not have Tap to Click, tap to click (and 2 finger tap to right click) now works. Two finger scrolling is also better on these laptops.

So finally, in mid-2009, two years after my mid-2007 MacBook was purchased, Windows runs well.

There doesn't seem to be any power changing settings however. I really hope the new MacBooks and Unibody MacBook Pros will see improvements in Snow Leopard as well.

I'll second all of that, I ran into problems with the boot camp drivers supplied with my uMBP with 7 32 Bit but thanks to a developer mate who gave me the Snow Leopard Beta 3.0 drivers which work excellent in comparison to my previous XP Pro with BC 2.1. No more sudden blue screens with the touchpad driver and KbdMgr spiking the CPU at irregular intervals. However compared to Leopard with the 9600 enabled the battery life is poor no matter how I tweak the power options in control panel. I have newer builds of the drivers to try, but it works and by the time they go gold will probably mean it's only weeks until I get 7 Pro in October.

I can't help but laugh with the comment about Windows being inefficient. Vista certainly was but that's history already. I'd look forward to reading the excuses why 7 starts 30 seconds quicker than Leopard and Windows versions of CS3 and Quark are about 20 percent faster than the Mac side.