iPhone 3GS Has More Powerful PowerVR SGX 535 GPU? [Archive]

MacRumors

Jun 25, 2009, 08:10 AM

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/06/25/iphone-3gs-has-more-powerful-powervr-sgx-535-gpu/)

Despite the fact that it seems to be common knowledge that the iPhone 3GS uses the latest PowerVR SGX graphics processors, the specifics have remained a bit of a mystery. In an in-depth "under the hood" analysis, Anandtech (http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3579&p=3&cp=6) guessed that Apple uses the low end 520 model in the iPhone 3GS. The PowerVR SGX chips, however, have a range of models which each carry a different set of performance characteristics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerVR). SGX520 (7 MPolys/s, 250Mpx/s) for the handheld mobile market
SGX530/1 (14 MPolys/s) for the handheld mobile market
SGX535 and SGX540 (28 MPolys/s) for handheld high end mobile, portable, MID, UMPC, consumer, and automotive devices
SGX540 (1000M pix/s, 20-35M Polys/s), SGX545, SGX555
The Palm Pre, for example, uses (http://www.weboshelp.net/webos-mojo-development-resources/palmprespecifications) the SGX 530 designed for the handheld mobile market.

iPhone developers, however, have discovered that the iPhone 3GS has extension files named "IMGSGX535GLDriver" suggesting that the new iPhone uses the more powerful graphics processor intended for "high end" mobile devices. This may not be entirely conclusive evidence by itself but it is consistent with a report (http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3579&p=3&cp=6) from a Anandtech commenter who claims to have heard directly from Apple engineers at WWDC that the iPhone 3GS does indeed use the SGX 535. As seen from the above list, the 535 seems to deliver much greater performance over the originally believed 520 model as well as the 530 model found in the Palm Pre.

Article Link: iPhone 3GS Has More Powerful PowerVR SGX 535 GPU? (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/06/25/iphone-3gs-has-more-powerful-powervr-sgx-535-gpu/)

ViRGE

Jun 25, 2009, 08:19 AM

That's all well and great, but what does this mean for battery life? The iPhone 3G was already pretty bad about depleting itself in short periods of time on intensive games.

csmitty

Jun 25, 2009, 08:30 AM

This is not helping me hold off on buying one. I frequently get frustrated my the slowness of the 3G, and it seems a bit worse with the 3.0 OS. Oh well, only money.

Kiwi616

Jun 25, 2009, 08:31 AM

Great, hopefully the 3rd Gen iPod Touch uses the higher end one also and doesn't under clock it. /crossfingers/

entropy1980

Jun 25, 2009, 08:36 AM

Could mean a lot when openCL hits iPhone OS.

PhilipOrr

Jun 25, 2009, 08:37 AM

I was the one who commented on the report at AnandTech, and yes, it was one of the development team for the OpenGL|ES2.0 that I was talking to. He made really clear that it was the 535 processor.

Another, almost oddity, was with a question I had put to the Grand Central guys. They told me to ensure that I keep my coding complient with OpenCL. When I told them that I was developing for the iPhone and not the Mac itself, they basically said, Yeah I know, just make sure that you can be complient with multi-core devices when you need to introduce extra horsepower to your apps.

Does this mean that in a later minor update we'll see OpenCL being used with the current iPhone 3GS or, as I've heard rumor, a multi core main processor, allowing the iPhone to switch between cores, based on preference settings and/or CPU workload.

All looking very nice for the future of mobile devices.

Pressure

Jun 25, 2009, 08:41 AM

This is great news if true, especially if you want to use it as a mobile gaming device.

soup4you2

Jun 25, 2009, 08:46 AM

Am I the only one who is tired of constant iPhone news?

jrsdead

Jun 25, 2009, 08:48 AM

Unspoken Demise

Jun 25, 2009, 08:51 AM

Am I the only one who is tired of constant iPhone news?

I love all the iPhone news, but I can see your point.

ImNoSuperMan

Jun 25, 2009, 08:51 AM

Am I the only one who is tired of constant iPhone news?

I agree with you completely. You may be the only one.:p

I cant get enough of 3GS news. Unfortunately I cant get it until Aug, so these news do interest me a lot and further solidifies my decision of getting one as soon as it arrives here.

sammich

Jun 25, 2009, 08:52 AM

I'm just waiting for the day when my old 12" 867 Powerbook will be outpaced CPU and GPU-wise by something the size of an iPhone.

How far technology has come in 6 years. Wow.

Shasterball

Jun 25, 2009, 08:53 AM

Am I the only one who is tired of constant iPhone news?

I think it's great for people who are still thinking about getting a 3GS. If you are not, I can see it getting stale...

Thex1138

Jun 25, 2009, 08:55 AM

rols

Jun 25, 2009, 08:58 AM

Am I the only one who is tired of constant iPhone news?

probably not, there must be others. News like this however I find very interesting, it shows (to me) a concerted effort by apple to do more than the minimum to stay ahead of the competition and the comments on the story, if they are accurate, say something about where the OSX family of OSes are going and how they may appear on all platforms.

diamond.g

Jun 25, 2009, 08:59 AM

Nice :). Now we all know the iPod touch is going to get a nice bump in power as well. I wonder how long before devs take advantage of the power. It sounds like enough to keep up with the Wii pretty easily...

Roamerick

Jun 25, 2009, 09:01 AM

I knew there was a reason I got mine on launch day! All I need now if an optimised version of F.A.S.T and I'm all set :)

psonice

Jun 25, 2009, 09:05 AM

Does this mean that in a later minor update we'll see OpenCL being used with the current iPhone 3GS or, as I've heard rumor, a multi core main processor, allowing the iPhone to switch between cores, based on preference settings and/or CPU workload.

Depends on 2 things really: when it happens, and how you look at it. Multi-core mobile CPUs won't be here until next year, unless apple are building something themselves (and I doubt that'll happen just yet). So if they were thinking fairly short term, then it's not likely to be the CPU.

Another way to look at it is to consider the GPU as an extra core, as you can run parts of you app on it with CL. Split the app into kernels, assign the kernels to cpu or gpu depending on what they need. I guess they could release an iphone os update with snow leopard, to support some of the new stuff. Adding openCL to the iphone at that point could make some marketing sense.. maybe. I'd have thought something like openCL would come in a major update (i.e. 4.0) though.

Well, multi-core and openCL are pretty much guaranteed in the next few years, perhaps they're just asking you to plan ahead?

krye

Jun 25, 2009, 09:06 AM

Palm: IN. YOUR. FACE!

BeyondtheTech

Jun 25, 2009, 09:06 AM

I love pissing matches.

"I have the 530..."

"Yeah, well, I have the 53FIVE..."

"I have a keyboard."

"Yeah, well... you're on Sprint."

"Hmm... touché."

Mr. Wonderful

Jun 25, 2009, 09:09 AM

I was the one who commented on the report at AnandTech, and yes, it was one of the development team for the OpenGL|ES2.0 that I was talking to. He made really clear that it was the 535 processor.

Another, almost oddity, was with a question I had put to the Grand Central guys. They told me to ensure that I keep my coding complient with OpenCL. When I told them that I was developing for the iPhone and not the Mac itself, they basically said, Yeah I know, just make sure that you can be complient with multi-core devices when you need to introduce extra horsepower to your apps.

Does this mean that in a later minor update we'll see OpenCL being used with the current iPhone 3GS or, as I've heard rumor, a multi core main processor, allowing the iPhone to switch between cores, based on preference settings and/or CPU workload.

All looking very nice for the future of mobile devices.
This is my problem, however. I'm about ready to upgrade to an iPod Touch, waiting for the September update, of course, but then I keep hearing about the dual core processors that will be coming in next year's revisions and keep thinking how it would be worth waiting, particularly for the possibility of true multitasking capabilities. But then I also keep hearing about how much faster the 3GS and therefore the Touch 3G is/will be, and I think twice again.

Eh. I'll probably just wait and use the money to buy an SSD this year instead after the next Intel price cut.

diamond.g

Jun 25, 2009, 09:15 AM

Depends on 2 things really: when it happens, and how you look at it. Multi-core mobile CPUs won't be here until next year, unless apple are building something themselves (and I doubt that'll happen just yet). So if they were thinking fairly short term, then it's not likely to be the CPU.

Another way to look at it is to consider the GPU as an extra core, as you can run parts of you app on it with CL. Split the app into kernels, assign the kernels to cpu or gpu depending on what they need. I guess they could release an iphone os update with snow leopard, to support some of the new stuff. Adding openCL to the iphone at that point could make some marketing sense.. maybe. I'd have thought something like openCL would come in a major update (i.e. 4.0) though.

Well, multi-core and openCL are pretty much guaranteed in the next few years, perhaps they're just asking you to plan ahead?
The only problem being OpenCL support would be non existent on the 3G and 2G as the MBX Lite has a fixed function pipeline. Apple would have had to phased out the older units or provide some way of gracefully falling back (especially since it appears OpenGL ES 2.0 is not backwards compatible).

John Jacob

Jun 25, 2009, 09:19 AM

I don't understand why the GPU model couldn't be determined from the teardown (http://www.isuppli.com/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=20398) conducted by iSuppli.

diamond.g

Jun 25, 2009, 09:26 AM

I don't understand why the GPU model couldn't be determined from the teardown (http://www.isuppli.com/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=20398) conducted by iSuppli.

The GPU and CPU are on a single die.

ironman159

Jun 25, 2009, 09:26 AM

I love pissing matches.

"I have the 530..."

"Yeah, well, I have the 53FIVE..."

"I have a keyboard."

"Yeah, well... you're on Sprint."

"Hmm... touché."

HAHAHAHAHAHA you made my day. :D Also, does this is a sign of the battery life problems some people are having with their iPhones 3GS? :confused:

scottuf

Jun 25, 2009, 09:29 AM

I love pissing matches.

"I have the 530..."

"Yeah, well, I have the 53FIVE..."

"I have a keyboard."

"Yeah, well... you're on Sprint."

"Hmm... touché."

:D

dagamer34

Jun 25, 2009, 09:30 AM

diamond.g

Jun 25, 2009, 09:42 AM

Well, a year from now the iPhone 3G will have been 2 years old. Just about everyone who has an iPhone 3G would be eligible to upgrade.

True, I also believe that the OS that supports it (OpenCL) won't run on the older hardware.

ddTaylor

Jun 25, 2009, 09:48 AM

Am I the only one who is tired of constant iPhone news?

I could NOT agree more! I realize this is a Mac rumors forum but constant iPhone news causes me to reduce my time checking these sites. I have a 3G and 2nd generation iPod Touch and I play games on both - but only things like Paper Toss and Vegas Pool - and the Star Trek game - all relatively low-complexity games.

That being said maybe with OpenCL the extra horsepower will help even basic applications and speed if Apple allows the OS itself to take advantage of the multi-processor technology...

See - even I commented on the iPhone! I am slowly falling into the iPhone talk and I cannot stop myself!

D

bytethese

Jun 25, 2009, 09:51 AM

Am I the only one who is tired of constant iPhone news?

Yes. :)

iSee

Jun 25, 2009, 09:52 AM

mudenza

Jun 25, 2009, 10:00 AM

It sounds like enough to keep up with the Wii pretty easily...

Whoa slow down there tiger :D

psonice

Jun 25, 2009, 10:01 AM

The only problem being OpenCL support would be non existent on the 3G and 2G as the MBX Lite has a fixed function pipeline. Apple would have had to phased out the older units or provide some way of gracefully falling back (especially since it appears OpenGL ES 2.0 is not backwards compatible).

We'd have to write fallbacks, yeah, but it's nothing new. The same is true with opengl es 1/2, but it's easy enough to add a check to see what is supported. The downside is you have to write a lot of your graphics code twice.

For openCL, you'd just have a CPU fallback. The code would be fairly similar at least (with opengl it's a totally different beast), so it wouldn't be too much work at a guess - it'd just run way slower on older hardware.

nomad421

Jun 25, 2009, 10:02 AM

I, for one, have been waiting for this story to break. I've been asking this question around the forums for a while, but obviously there wasn't a whole lot of evidence about the GPU used by the 3GS. I likely just find this so interesting because I'm a nerdy grad student who studies computer graphics for a living, but the performance gap between the 520 and the 535 are significant. If the 535 is really the chip in the new iPhone, this really blows the roof off. It really, really, *really* opens the door for some incredible looking apps (both games and non-games).

alexacker

Jun 25, 2009, 10:03 AM

I tell you, as a new 3GS owner having recently upgraded from a 2G phone, it's like Olympic running versus crawling out of a bar, half-drunk. I actually turn off Wi-Fi because I find that 3G was plenty fast in NYC. But, when at home and connected to WiFi, CNN.com pops up within 1sec.

I'm simply amazed and sooooo glad I skipped the 3G!

psonice

Jun 25, 2009, 10:04 AM

Seems like someone familiar with this line of processors who has access to a couple different devices should be able to test this: (1) write an iPhone app that benchmarks the iPhone 3GS GPU, (2) write the equivalent benchmark app for a device with a known GPU, (3) compare.

I'm pretty much assuming Apple doesn't provide a reliable way to query an iPhone's GPU to find out what chip it is. If they do, so much the better.

You'd also have to ensure that the drivers were pretty near identical, and that the OS/cpu/everything else doesn't interfere. I.e. it's much harder than it sounds..

There's no way to query the exact GPU afaik, but it's easy to tell opengl es 1.x / 2.x parts. That's the important thing to know, after that it's just a case of how fast it is.

*LTD*

Jun 25, 2009, 10:06 AM

But will it run Crysis?

ny3ranger

Jun 25, 2009, 10:12 AM

They should have used the 540.

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/06/25/iphone-3gs-has-more-powerful-powervr-sgx-535-gpu/)

Despite the fact that it seems to be common knowledge that the iPhone 3GS uses the latest PowerVR SGX graphics processors, the specifics have remained a bit of a mystery. In an in-depth "under the hood" analysis, Anandtech (http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3579&p=3&cp=6) guessed that Apple uses the low end 520 model in the iPhone 3GS. The PowerVR SGX chips, however, have a range of models which each carry a different set of performance characteristics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerVR). The Palm Pre, for example, uses (http://www.weboshelp.net/webos-mojo-development-resources/palmprespecifications) the SGX 530 designed for the handheld mobile market.

iPhone developers, however, have discovered that the iPhone 3GS has extension files named "IMGSGX535GLDriver" suggesting that the new iPhone uses the more powerful graphics processor intended for "high end" mobile devices. This may not be entirely conclusive evidence by itself but it is consistent with a report (http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3579&p=3&cp=6) from a Anandtech commenter who claims to have heard directly from Apple engineers at WWDC that the iPhone 3GS does indeed use the SGX 535. As seen from the above list, the 535 seems to deliver much greater performance over the originally believed 520 model as well as the 530 model found in the Palm Pre.

Article Link: iPhone 3GS Has More Powerful PowerVR SGX 535 GPU? (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/06/25/iphone-3gs-has-more-powerful-powervr-sgx-535-gpu/)

OneMammoth

Jun 25, 2009, 10:13 AM

But will it run Crysis?

LOL :D

DaBrain

Jun 25, 2009, 10:17 AM

Am I the only one who is tired of constant iPhone news?

Nope! The obsession here has been relentless since the iPhones inception! Just take a look and you'll see the largest percentage of front page news for the last year or more is iPhone elated. That's just the way it is here. ;)

Jamie 360

Jun 25, 2009, 10:19 AM

That's all well and great, but what does this mean for battery life? The iPhone 3G was already pretty bad about depleting itself in short periods of time on intensive games.

I am honestly finding myself having to charge my 32 gig 3GS the same amount of times as I was charging my 2G with the same application usage. Not impressed. I know that my 2G had great battery life left, and I am now wishing I stuck it out and waited for the next upgrade. I'm on Wifi at home and at the office, so the only time I'm accessing data/email via AT&T is while commuting or when I'm out. The 3G network is obviously faster than 2G Edge was, but again--it just drains the battery even more AND I'm paying $15 more a month just to have data during those times. I was excited over Tom-Tom coming to the Iphone (especially when I heard you can download Homer's voice! :D ) but obviously that will be even more of a battery hog. I just don't get the hype, sorry I tried. And I'm still bitter over my Vibe Duo answer call/track buttons not functioning properly on the 3Gs.

mashkina

Jun 25, 2009, 10:21 AM

I'm simply amazed and sooooo glad I skipped the 3G!

Enjoy. You are discovering a world of GPS maps, fast Internet, that many are enjoying for over one year already. Next year, when I upgrade to the iPhone 4G OpenCL, I will be as glad as you are now :-)

jimsowden

Jun 25, 2009, 10:23 AM

Could mean a lot when openCL hits iPhone OS.

I was thinking the exact same thing. All this talk of super-GPUs gets me giddy.

masse

Jun 25, 2009, 10:23 AM

I knew there was a reason I got mine on launch day! All I need now if an optimised version of F.A.S.T and I'm all set :)

Hands down the best game or iPod / iPhone. Papertoss comes second.

sschwar4

Jun 25, 2009, 10:24 AM

The only problem being OpenCL support would be non existent on the 3G and 2G as the MBX Lite has a fixed function pipeline. Apple would have had to phased out the older units or provide some way of gracefully falling back (especially since it appears OpenGL ES 2.0 is not backwards compatible).

Or just not support it on the older models. We have already seen that with the video capability on the 3G vs. 3GS. Jailbroke 3G phones have this capability, so it can be done, they just chose not to do it. I also hear that the Nike + was only a BT function, still the 3G does not support or have it.

Planned obsolescence, just like every other cell phone provider.

diamond.g

Jun 25, 2009, 10:35 AM

Or just not support it on the older models. We have already seen that with the video capability on the 3G vs. 3GS. Jailbroke 3G phones have this capability, so it can be done, they just chose not to do it. I also hear that the Nike + was only a BT function, still the 3G does not support or have it.

Planned obsolescence, just like every other cell phone provider.

As someone else pointed out it would just fall back to the CPU. The GPU in the 3G and iPod touch can't support OpenCL. They don't support shaders (nevermind unified shaders).

jholzner

Jun 25, 2009, 10:39 AM

Well, a year from now the iPhone 3G will have been 2 years old. Just about everyone who has an iPhone 3G would be eligible to upgrade.

True but Apple is still selling the 3G for 99 bucks.

wizard

Jun 25, 2009, 10:43 AM

I was the one who commented on the report at AnandTech, and yes, it was one of the development team for the OpenGL|ES2.0 that I was talking to. He made really clear that it was the 535 processor.

That is good to hear. Not that it means a huge thing to me right now for the code I have in mind. Good for apps from others though.

Another, almost oddity, was with a question I had put to the Grand Central guys. They told me to ensure that I keep my coding complient with OpenCL. When I told them that I was developing for the iPhone and not the Mac itself, they basically said, Yeah I know, just make sure that you can be complient with multi-core devices when you need to introduce extra horsepower to your apps.

OpenCL implies acceleration via the GPU. I'm not sure if the 535 is OpenCL compliant, only a few of the very new Imagination core are. So I'm not sure if this is projecting technology coming for the iPhone GS or other devices in the pipeline.

The interesting thing is that you where talking to the GCD guys. It looks like a case of loose lips, it's too bad you couldn't corner them with regards to SMP support in future devices. I would suspect that a dual core approach would yield the widest advantages to developers but at the same time allow for tight power management.

Does this mean that in a later minor update we'll see OpenCL being used with the current iPhone 3GS or, as I've heard rumor, a multi core main processor,

My personal opinion is that Apple will introduce dual core on a coming iPod Touch device. The device will be focused more on gaming thus the need for the extra core. Of course gaming also implies a better GPU so it may be OpenCL compatible too. In any event some place on the web you can find out which Imagination cores are OpenCL compliant.

Note the reason I see Dual Core ARM coming even in light of an OpenCL compliant platform is that the GPU is only good at accelerating certain types of code. Dual core ARM allows Apple to build powerfull devices but also manage power in a way it couldn't on a single core device.

Another thing to note is that apparently Apple worked directly with Imagination to produce OpenCL compliant GPUs. I would have to say the writting is literal on the wall here. Sooner or later we will have OpenCL operating on hand held devices. Some place in all of this is the Neon and other capabilities that ARM may be suppling in this hardware.

allowing the iPhone to switch between cores, based on preference settings and/or CPU workload.

not at all! OpenCL support should be built into the app by the developer and the use of whatever supported cores are available should be transparent to the user. The goal is to harvest the available resources transparently to the user.

The use of cores should not be a user concern just like it isn't on the Mac.

All looking very nice for the future of mobile devices.
Yes!

It is looking very good indeed. I'm just wondering how far they will be able to go with the coming fall iPod refresh. It would be nice to see that SMP machine with OpenCL support in September.

Dave

auburnfan24

Jun 25, 2009, 10:47 AM

Am I the only one who is tired of constant iPhone news?

you are on MACRUMORS....and the iPhone is at the height of the news for apple right now. all you had to do was keep scrolling on down the page. i however, love hearing good news about the new device i just bought. makes me feel better about buying it! :D

Hattig

Jun 25, 2009, 11:16 AM

Could mean a lot when openCL hits iPhone OS.

You'd need the PowerVR SGX 543 for that - that has OpenCL support designed into it's enhanced shaders (over the 520/530/535/540).

As for the 535 in the 3GS - it could be running at a slow speed to preserve power. It's 4x more powerful per clock than the previously rumoured 520, but if it's running at half the clock than was guessed at ...

Still, someone will find out eventually.

Edit: I believe the 535 is also the graphics core used in Intel's GMA500, as used in the integrated low-end chipsets for Atom.

Stargaze

Jun 25, 2009, 11:19 AM

awesome news for development and advacement

There is NEVER enough iPhone news!!

just a all around great upgrade better than i thought it would be :D

keep the iPhone news coming :D

dgcaste

Jun 25, 2009, 11:21 AM

Palm: IN. YOUR. FACE!

I agree with how you feel, but I welcome Palm's competition. It can only strengthen iPhone and AppStore.

.:R2theT

Jun 25, 2009, 11:23 AM

I'm just wondering how far they will be able to go with the coming fall iPod refresh. It would be nice to see that SMP machine with OpenCL support in September.

Dave

I doubt they will be able to take the iPod Touch much further than the latest iPhone just on purely economic reasons. The iPhone will always have the latest and greatest to entice people into the 2-year contracts with the expensive data plans. The Touch will again be almost a carbon copy of the iPhone. Maybe a camera, maybe 64 GB. But not much more in terms of power or processing.

Compile 'em all

Jun 25, 2009, 11:25 AM

.:R2theT

Jun 25, 2009, 11:27 AM

I agree with how you feel, but I welcome Palm's competition. It can only strengthen iPhone and AppStore.

Really? I can't see anything that any other manufacturer is doing that is influencing Apple's iPhone development in terms of competition. Except maybe stuff that Apple should have nailed with the first iPhone such as cut/copy/paste, video, MMS, tethering.

Apple is leading the way otherwise and not looking back!

slapppy

Jun 25, 2009, 11:33 AM

I thought the Palm guys said it will run circles around the iPhone. I mean they were right...... for a few days. :p

taeclee99

Jun 25, 2009, 11:38 AM

The upgraded graphics chip makes the following possible:

PSX emulator for iphone 3 GS!!!!

http://gizmodo.com/5302386/iphone-3gss-upgraded-hardware-means-console-emulators-no-longer-suck

TSX

Jun 25, 2009, 11:43 AM

This is not helping me hold off on buying one. I frequently get frustrated my the slowness of the 3G, and it seems a bit worse with the 3.0 OS. Oh well, only money.

The 3gs is faster than the 3g, so if your tired of the slowness upgrade you'll be happy.

psonice

Jun 25, 2009, 11:45 AM

Really? I can't see anything that any other manufacturer is doing that is influencing Apple's iPhone development in terms of competition. Except maybe stuff that Apple should have nailed with the first iPhone such as cut/copy/paste, video, MMS, tethering.

Apple is leading the way otherwise and not looking back!

Don't forget about stuff like multitasking and the address book etc. that palm has got running way better than apple. The pre is still fast and very good, with some OS updates it'll be a very strong rival to the iphone (bear in mind how much faster iphone OS has got since the original release - the pre is on v1 right now).

Then what will happen? Apple will put out their yearly update, so will palm. If palm pulls the stops out and makes their phone a lot better (like apple did with 3g / os2.0 last year) then iphone will start slipping behind. Palm are putting a lot of pressure on apple to up their game.

.:R2theT

Jun 25, 2009, 11:55 AM

Don't forget about stuff like multitasking and the address book etc. that palm has got running way better than apple. The pre is still fast and very good, with some OS updates it'll be a very strong rival to the iphone (bear in mind how much faster iphone OS has got since the original release - the pre is on v1 right now).

Then what will happen? Apple will put out their yearly update, so will palm. If palm pulls the stops out and makes their phone a lot better (like apple did with 3g / os2.0 last year) then iphone will start slipping behind. Palm are putting a lot of pressure on apple to up their game.

While I don't believe Apple takes anything in the marketplace for granted, I just don't see the Pre being strong competition.

And Apple seems to keep a lot of features as weapons for a later date(also to keep people getting the newest model) so I don't see the idea of Apple falling behind as valid. I think they are just milking this as long as they can. I think Apple could drop many more features at anytime it wants.

And I still think this idea of multi-tasking is a load of carp. For as fast as the 3GS is, is there really any delay? And how is that battery life on the Pre with its multi-tasking? From what I understand, it is piss poor!

I'm sorry but I just tend to believe that Apple is already at least 2 years down the road with its iPhone plans while these other phones are playing catch-up. Apple is only playing catch-up with what Apple wants to play catch-up with.

Rootus

Jun 25, 2009, 12:16 PM

While I don't believe Apple takes anything in the marketplace for granted, I just don't see the Pre being strong competition. I agree. Taking the thunder from iPhone will require besting it in significant ways. Matching it won't be enough, and the Pre is a long ways from doing even that.

adnium

Jun 25, 2009, 12:16 PM

Hmm I wonder if it is possible to squeeze more power from the GPU CPU then?
If the Clock is capped at 600mhz... capable of 800mhz... then is is possible to unleash that extra torque?

Hope Soooooo! :D

I'm sure some enterprising jailbreak developer will uncap the CPU, and maybe even tap that supposed ability to record 720p video (although the battery will probably last about 8 seconds).

Pika

Jun 25, 2009, 12:21 PM

I cannot be happy without having the latest and greatest apple gadgets. :mad:
I must get my hands on the iPhone 3GS... The iPhone 3G is obsolete and it's 1 @#% year old !

*LTD*

Jun 25, 2009, 12:33 PM

I cannot be happy without having the latest and greatest apple gadgets. :mad:
I must get my hands on the iPhone 3GS... The iPhone 3G is obsolete and it's 1 @#% year old !

You like making it hard for yourself, eh? ;)

I'm that way too, in a way. Though I've somehow resisted the animal urge to get a 3GS right away. We'll see how long I can hold out.

twoodcc

Jun 25, 2009, 12:53 PM

great. i wonder how much heat this makes though

SandynJosh

Jun 25, 2009, 01:00 PM

This is my problem, however. I'm about ready to upgrade to an iPod Touch, waiting for the September update, of course, but then I keep hearing about the dual core processors that will be coming in next year's revisions and keep thinking how it would be worth waiting, particularly for the possibility of true multitasking capabilities. But then I also keep hearing about how much faster the 3GS and therefore the Touch 3G is/will be, and I think twice again.

You just gotta know that by next year there will be something else "coming next year." There will always be something else coming.

My suggestion is to buy what you need and know that it will be outdated sooner then you're ready to upgrade. The technology train stops at no stations and is speeding up, so there's no safe time to try and jump on board.

smileyborg

Jun 25, 2009, 01:01 PM

great. i wonder how much heat this makes though

Unnoticeable difference from previous models. (For example, playing NFS Underground)

sconnor99

Jun 25, 2009, 01:05 PM

Look at the long history of the iPod - Apple are very used to beating back the competition.

i.mac

Jun 25, 2009, 02:14 PM

ahahaha...same here. im glad i skipped the 3G :p

In about a year, I will be sooo glad that I am skipping the 3gs updgrade...

wizard

Jun 25, 2009, 02:18 PM

I doubt they will be able to take the iPod Touch much further than the latest iPhone just on purely economic reasons.

IPod Touch is a product in it's own right and rather popular. Thus it is it's own economy and justified so. That doesn't mean there are not shared technologies that are used on both platforms. Hardware however doesn't have to be one of those techs.

The iPhone will always have the latest and greatest to entice people into the 2-year contracts with the expensive data plans.

First there is more to iPhone than that. Second iPhone hasn't had the greatest since the last Touch came out. Touch was a faster system up until "S" hit the shelves. There is no basis for your statement.

The Touch will again be almost a carbon copy of the iPhone. Maybe a camera, maybe 64 GB. But not much more in terms of power or processing.

Well we could debate that at length, but there is a very good chance it will be much faster in the same way the current Touch is faster than 3G and has a longer battery life.

The thing here is that I'm pretty sure people at Apple where quoted as saying that iPod Touch devices may move in a different direction that iPhone. This actually makes sense if you think about it. Touch was successfully on a number of counts, alternative implementations just mean that Apple can market to different needs.

This has me convinced that Apple will have an alternate model Touch to market along side an updated current model Touch. I'm thinking a larger screen and other features that allow the device to support greater ineractivity. It just makes sense to expand the lineup.

Dave

ihabime

Jun 25, 2009, 02:23 PM

Wow, the people in this thread speculating on the iPhone GPU running openCL really need to read up on what openCL is.

OpenCL is not about graphics acceleration, the GPU already does that by itself.

OpenCL is not about running generic CPU code on the GPU, if-then-else, branchy code, code that needs user input, code that needs to access other memory, code that needs to do a lot of small different operations is CPU code, openCL will not make it run on the GPU, GPUs are not built for that.

OpenCL and GPGPU are about heavy duty number crunching, large datasets, vector processing, matrix calculations.

OpenCL is for folding-at-home, mathmatica and photoshop filters, not waiting for you to click a link in safari or watch a youtube video.

The PowerVR chips don't even have programmable shader pipelines, something that is required for openCL. They use tile based deferred rendering which is an entirely different rendering technique from what nvidia and ati use.

diamond.g

Jun 25, 2009, 02:28 PM

.:R2theT

Jun 25, 2009, 03:26 PM

IPod Touch is a product in it's own right and rather popular. Thus it is it's own economy and justified so. That doesn't mean there are not shared technologies that are used on both platforms. Hardware however doesn't have to be one of those techs.

First there is more to iPhone than that. Second iPhone hasn't had the greatest since the last Touch came out. Touch was a faster system up until "S" hit the shelves. There is no basis for your statement.

Well we could debate that at length, but there is a very good chance it will be much faster in the same way the current Touch is faster than 3G and has a longer battery life.

The thing here is that I'm pretty sure people at Apple where quoted as saying that iPod Touch devices may move in a different direction that iPhone. This actually makes sense if you think about it. Touch was successfully on a number of counts, alternative implementations just mean that Apple can market to different needs.

This has me convinced that Apple will have an alternate model Touch to market along side an updated current model Touch. I'm thinking a larger screen and other features that allow the device to support greater ineractivity. It just makes sense to expand the lineup.

Dave

I agree with most everything you are saying. I just don't think that Apple will release a "major" revolution in the Touch until it hits the iPhone. If Apple came out with multi-core processing in the iPod Touch this September there would be a huge slow-down in iPhone sales as people would know that that same multi-core processing would be just a few months away. That's all.

ihabime

Jun 25, 2009, 03:43 PM

Yes, I oversimplified that and used the wrong term, but the PowerVR gpus are much simpler than even the lowest level GPU currently offered by nvidia or ati.

It's much more comparable to a radeon 7000 or intel gma950.

The PowerVR is a nice gpu for a low power handheld device, but it's not even in the same ballpark as the GPUs that can run openCL.

Even if it could, there would be no point to running it on the iPhone. GPUs are good at running vectorized code, but most code isn't easily vectorizable.

OpenCL does not work the way most people here think it does, it will not magically offload cpu code onto the gpu.

OpenCL does make the processing power of the gpu simpler to access for programmers, but only in the narrow circumstances that it's useful.

None of those circumstances are useful on the iPhone/iPod touch.

That isn't true, the SGX does have a programable shaders. What it is missing is unified shaders. That is why it supports OpenGL ES 2.0 (which isn't backwards compatible with 1.1).

Strigoi

Jun 25, 2009, 03:45 PM

Tweakers start modding and overclocking the 3GS graphix card! Btw Apple and Nvidia have release the GTX 285 for the Mac Pro, I think it will be a matter of time to see this baby in the iPhone.. ;)

Hattig

Jun 25, 2009, 03:56 PM

The PowerVR chips don't even have programmable shader pipelines, something that is required for openCL. They use tile based deferred rendering which is an entirely different rendering technique from what nvidia and ati use.

Hmm. The POWERVR SGX family incorporates the revolutionary Universal Scalable Shader Engine (USSE™), with a feature set that exceeds the requirements of OpenGL 2.0 and Microsoft Shader Model 3, enabling 2D, 3D and general purpose (GP-GPU) processing in a single core.

API support includes OpenGL ES 1.1/2.0, OpenVG 1.1, OpenGL 2.0/3.0 and DirectX9/10.1
OS support includes Linux, Symbian OS and Windows Mobile/Vista/XP

The advanced vertex and pixel shading capabilities of the POWERVR SGX family

I guess some games (BoomBlox could be ported) could use the unified shaders to do physics calculations. Obviously as a mobile core it's a lot less powerful than a modern GPU, but in terms of actual technical capabilities it's better than anything Intel integrate into their chipsets.

Aiphanes

Jun 25, 2009, 04:12 PM

Look at this way...Does Palm have their own stand alone store? I was in a apple store yesterday in San Antonio and it was packed...

deconstruct60

Jun 25, 2009, 05:28 PM

Another, almost oddity, was with a question I had put to the Grand Central guys. They told me to ensure that I keep my coding complient with OpenCL. When I told them that I was developing for the iPhone and not the Mac itself, they basically said, Yeah I know, just make sure that you can be complient with multi-core devices when you need to introduce extra horsepower to your apps.

Errrr, what else would you expect the Grand Central guys to pitch? Code that "is compliant with multi-core " is Grand Central kind of code. It will be easier to deal with long term maintenance of your software program framework if it is designed from the outset to deal with concurrent threads/cores/etc. For example, factoring out the heavy computation stuff into a contain thread that conforms to OpenCL constraints (and don't have any implicit locks were running "single file" on single core won't expose concurrency problems. )

Trying to go back later and retrofit that into you program will be harder once there are lots of other dependencies and details also embedded into the program. If your program has no future 2-4 years from now then can blow off long term trends. It doesn't have to be "the next iPhone" or the "next iPhoneOS update", it is a longer term trend that devices will have multiple cores. If you have designed your application so that it can consume more concurrent recourses as they are available you app has more flexibility.

Some (or most ) of your app may not be up for OpenCL constraints. So the comments they were directing apply as applicable.

chrmjenkins

Jun 25, 2009, 05:35 PM

I was the one who commented on the report at AnandTech, and yes, it was one of the development team for the OpenGL|ES2.0 that I was talking to. He made really clear that it was the 535 processor.

Another, almost oddity, was with a question I had put to the Grand Central guys. They told me to ensure that I keep my coding complient with OpenCL. When I told them that I was developing for the iPhone and not the Mac itself, they basically said, Yeah I know, just make sure that you can be complient with multi-core devices when you need to introduce extra horsepower to your apps.

Does this mean that in a later minor update we'll see OpenCL being used with the current iPhone 3GS or, as I've heard rumor, a multi core main processor, allowing the iPhone to switch between cores, based on preference settings and/or CPU workload.

All looking very nice for the future of mobile devices.

Thanks for sharing.

I'm surprised they went all out for the 535.

chickenninja

Jun 25, 2009, 06:41 PM

535 minus 530 = 5 which less than 1% of 530. which means the palm pre is 99% effective at treating lack of iphone disorder. :P

kallisti

Jun 25, 2009, 07:03 PM

Am I the only one who is tired of constant iPhone news?

Yes, yes you are.

DELLsFan

Jun 25, 2009, 08:01 PM

Am I the only one who is tired of constant iPhone news?

No, no you're not. :D

winterspan

Jun 26, 2009, 12:46 AM

HOLY CRAP! The 535 is a beast!

As an example, the "Pandora" open source gaming machine (has like every emulator under the sun) uses TI's OMAP3430 like the Palm Pre, both of which use the SGX 530.

No wonder developers are getting 4-5x the framerate in heavy graphics sequences -- of course performance depends greatly on the specific scenes involved.

I'm telling you gamers right now.. Just wait until new high-end titles come out that use OpenGL 2.0 --- the iPhone 3GS is going to become a serious gaming machine. I'm sure 3rd party controller hardware that plugs in to the dock will also become popular with hardcore gamers.

flurffmeister

Jun 26, 2009, 03:01 PM

28 million polys, doesn't that bring it up to about par with the PSP's raw geometrical output?

(how many polys can you really fit onto 480x320?)

dagamer34

Jun 27, 2009, 01:56 PM

28 million polys, doesn't that bring it up to about par with the PSP's raw geometrical output?

(how many polys can you really fit onto 480x320?)

In theory perhaps, but the PSP has the benefit of a much larger battery. It's like saying you can get Xbox 360 quality graphics on the iPhone, but your battery will only last 10 minutes.

I do wish Apple would use some game like Super Monkey Ball to quote battery life for 3D games. They kill the battery faster than anything else.

flurffmeister

Jun 28, 2009, 04:48 PM

In theory perhaps, but the PSP has the benefit of a much larger battery. It's like saying you can get Xbox 360 quality graphics on the iPhone, but your battery will only last 10 minutes.

I do wish Apple would use some game like Super Monkey Ball to quote battery life for 3D games. They kill the battery faster than anything else.

I intend to test precisely that. (i.e. how much battery you're gonna get playing games)

I did it for the second-gen iPod touch and the videos are in my channel at YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/flurffmeister), should be fun to see how the 3GS compares with the faster processor and graphics chip and twice the battery capacity.