SUVs

[EJBasile]

Ok well everyone seems to be against SUVs here. Is there anyone out there that drives an SUV. (LOL for you people who strongly dislike SUVs i know someone who commutes from Northern CT to boston a couple times a week driving a NISSAN PATHFINDER)

[blue&whiteman]

you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with cars.

[Sun Baked]

you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with cars.An unhealthy obsession with cars. :confused:

Wouldn't that be Porsche and BMW owners?

[iJon]

i do and who cares.

iJon

[hulugu]

Ok well everyone seems to be against SUVs here. Is there anyone out there that drives an SUV. (LOL for you people who strongly dislike SUVs i know someone who commutes from Northern CT to boston a couple times a week driving a NISSAN PATHFINDER)

SUVs are problematic because many people use them as grossly oversized station wagons/mini-vans, furthermore the size of the modern SUV the GMC Denali or the GM H2 are so massive that they can cause serious injury to the occupants of smaller cars.
However, I don't have a problem with all SUVs or all SUV drivers, just the careless and dangerous drivers who gave up their Volvo for a GMC Jimmy. Soccer moms on their cells for example.
I have a Jeep CJ-7 and a Ford Focus SVT; cars kick ass.

[BaDBoY]

two words: gas guzzler.

[dopefiend]

two words: gas guzzler.

Another pair of words:

Who cares?

Screw the people after us! ;)

I love my fast car and will probably own an SUV later on in my life. You only live once!

[hulugu]

Another pair of words:

Who cares?

Screw the people after us! ;)

I love my fast car and will probably own an SUV later on in my life. You only live once!


I hope you were being facetious.
Otherwise I would mention our dependence on Mid-East oil, the possibility that enough CO2 in the air will cause a green-house affect and melt the ice-caps thereby changing the 'Great Conveyer' and the world's major weather patterns and turning Europe into an ice-cube while the midwestern United States swelters and crops begin to fail. By the way, the weather affects in 'The Day After Tomorrow' could happen just not suddenly and all at once.
We need a new economy based on something besides fossil fuels.
And the fact that my Jeep CJ-7, built in 1980 using an engine design from the 60s, gets 16mpg while a brand-new SUV gets 14-24 is just depressing.

Also, you live multiple times you just can't tell anyone when you come back as a sea-slug. Natch.

[Spizzo]

I drive and SUV and am proud of it. Yep, its a gas guzzeling Chevy Tahoe. And if I didnt own it, i would have me a Audi S4. As far as me singlehandedly killing the earth - Ha! Like me driving a car would make any difference.
You wanna complain about something thats killin the earth, what about all these factorys across the US that are spewing out tons and tons of pollutants every day. See, they have very limited regulations on what they put out, because our great President got rid of the bill that would have regulated all this. I dont remember the exact details, sorry. But I'm sure its out there somewhere.
Well, I'm off to Exxon to pump 50 dollars worth of gas into my Tank.
:D

[blackfox]

Well, as noted in the car thread, I drive a 1976 volvo wagon. While not technicallly a SUV, by its' size and weight, it might qualify. It does manage about 21/28, which isn't bad for a 28 year-old vehicle. I guess I am a recycler of vehicles as I have never owned a car built past 1985, ad find 70's european cars to be beyond compare...dependable, economical, simple and cool looking. I support SUVs if they are used off-road or for hauling space, but otherwise, it seems unnecessary...

[blue&whiteman]

kill the planet! kill the planet! kill the planet! kill the planet! kill the planet! kill the planet! kill the planet! kill the planet! kill the planet! kill the planet! kill the planet! kill the planet! kill the planet! kill the planet! kill the planet! kill the planet!

yay!

[blue&whiteman]

Another pair of words:

Who cares?

Screw the people after us! ;)

I love my fast car and will probably own an SUV later on in my life. You only live once!

people like you get pushed to the front of the line for hell.

[dopefiend]

people like you get pushed to the front of the line for hell.

What is this "hell" you talk about? :p

[EJBasile]

I see controversy....

[blue&whiteman]

I see controversy....

I think all you see are new ways to be a yuppie
;) :D

[dvdh]

I drive and SUV and am proud of it. Yep, its a gas guzzeling Chevy Tahoe. And if I didnt own it, i would have me a Audi S4. As far as me singlehandedly killing the earth - Ha! Like me driving a car would make any difference.

Ya maybe if *only you* quit driving an SUV (or what ever gas guzzling beast for that matter) it wouldn't make a difference. But on the other hand if everyone took a little more interest in the 'good stewardship' side of things and cleaned up their act, I think it could make a pretty big difference.

Avoiding accepting responsibility on the grounds that you are not the only one who is being irresponsible is a HUGE problem and a sorry excuse.

As for killing the earth, I was born at a time when it was in bad enough shape, I sure hope collective actions can improve it before I have to hand it off to the next generation.

Apologies for unloading on you in particular. You're right the problem isn't only yours, we all have responsibility. (though some are certainly making more of an effort than others)

[sushi]

As far as me singlehandedly killing the earth - Ha! Like me driving a car would make any difference.
Up front, let me say that I am for alternative fuels and non oil dependence. To me in this day and age we have not gone far enough.

I also believe that your comment rings true.

After Mount St. Helens blew back in the early 80's, I was on recon mission in a Huey to fly up to the base of the mountain. We landed fairly close. The ground/ash was still warm. I stuck my fingers into the ash, and at the 2.5-3 inch point it got hot. So yes, we were very close.

I remember thinking that we had been flying over the moon. The terrain was baren. The baren land stretched for miles and miles around Mount St. Helens. Total devastation and the ash was everywhere. And Mount Penotubo (SP?) was much much worse.

So I tend to agree that man's polution is fairly minor to mother nature and her creations.

That is not to say I am for poluting the Earth. I am sure that mankind can do better. Just don't think that it is as bad as all the environmentalists would have one believe.

Sushi

[superninjagoat]

My wife and I are planning for children in the next year, which should roughly coincide with the death of our aging 1989 Mazda. And We're going to replace it with one of those hybrid SUVs Ford recently announced. In her opinion, we'll need the extra room; and the hybrid engine would be better than a true V-6 or V-8.

And that's true. But my argument was: why pretend that a "fuel efficient" hybrid SUV is superior to a 5-door Pirus. We're only planning for one kid. And the dog can sit in the hatch area. :) My argument didn't matter so much. She won.

Anyway, we had pretty much the same argument I'm reading here. And it got me thinking. Each of us makes choices about the level we want to pollute or conserve (however you want to look at it. Is the glass half full or half empty?). And once we make that choice for ourselves, we tend to condemn those who’ve make more lax choices.

But it's all a rationalization. Even with the Pirus, we'd still be polluting. For that matter, the computer I'm typing on uses energy, which pollutes. But it's all what we decide to personally accept. My wife's need for space outweighed her urge to conserve. My irrational need to share this story overweighed my urge to cut off the computer (or write the press release I need to do :D ).

All this is to say that while I agree with dvdh's assertion that we all have to do our part. And some of us will have to make up for the indiscretions of others. And I'm sure that there's some guy in Zambia that doesn't even have a car in his village that will help make up for mine.

So, when we replace our other car, we'll get a te-niny hybrid to replace it. It's all very Zen.

[MattG]

The problem is too many people that own SUVs DON'T NEED THEM. Sorry, but I'm tired of seeing all these "soccer moms" driving down the road in their Hummers while talking on their cell phones. It's dangerous and totally unnecessary. Face it, most people (men or women) that own Hummers (or any *really* large SUV) own them so they can say "I drive a Hummer," not because they need one (aka "small penis syndrome").

If you have a valid reason for owning an SUV, fine. Otherwise, grow up and get a normal sized car.

[Dros]

People can drive what they want to drive. When I see someone driving a SUV that doesn't need to, I just think, "Sucker!". When you buy a car, the car manufacturer makes about $1,000 profit. When you buy a SUV, the company makes $10,000 profit. That means you are paying an extra $10,000 over value. What do you get for that $10,000? Usually, a truck frame giving a mushy ride, cheap, crappy bumpers and every other cost-cutting measure in the book. Then you pump in $50 bucks when you stop for gas, can't park without moving back and forth like a fool several times, and then end up running over your dog because you have a huge blind spot in the back corner.

I've got a cheap 1991 Civic 5 door, which gets 40 mpg, still has low emissions, never had any service, and cost me a total of $6500 (including gas) over the last 10 years. Some people will have bought 2 SUVs in that span, with a total cost of ownership around $70,000. No wonder I've got a nice house almost paid off!

As for "only living once"... ever merge onto a highway in a Civic hatchback? People pay good money for that kind of thrill!

[Penman]

The problem is too many people that own SUVs DON'T NEED THEM. Sorry, but I'm tired of seeing all these "soccer moms" driving down the road in their Hummers while talking on their cell phones. It's dangerous and totally unnecessary. Face it, most people (men or women) that own Hummers (or any *really* large SUV) own them so they can say "I drive a Hummer," not because they need one (aka "small penis syndrome").

If you have a valid reason for owning an SUV, fine. Otherwise, grow up and get a normal sized car.

Have you ever sat in the back of a Hummer? An H1 is cramped due to the big lump that's supposed to contain military electronics and the H2's are tiny (I'm over 6'3" but the vehicle's huge). The back of my Honda Civic offers equivalent legroom (it's a Hybrid too).

If you have a need of an H1 I'm sorry about how your life's going but don't object to the vehicle. If you have an H2 though - just buy the Suburban (which shares the drivetrain) and stop pretending that you're tough in a 'military' vehicle the military don't actually use.

On that note a friend of mine is just back from Iraq. He's a tough guy who gets to drive around LA with racks of Machine guns in the back of his Monte Carlo. He said that the H1's are terrible and the soldiers hate them. The tires blow all the time and they offer so little protection the first thing they do is take the doors off. Running from the vehicle is safer that sitting behind its flimsy door. The vehicle of choice? anything that's not an SUV (it's like wearing a target) or a Land Rover if they must.

If you need ground clearance and 4WD get a Subaru.

[BaDBoY]

The problem is too many people that own SUVs DON'T NEED THEM. Sorry, but I'm tired of seeing all these "soccer moms" driving down the road in their Hummers while talking on their cell phones. It's dangerous and totally unnecessary. Face it, most people (men or women) that own Hummers (or any *really* large SUV) own them so they can say "I drive a Hummer," not because they need one (aka "small penis syndrome").

If you have a valid reason for owning an SUV, fine. Otherwise, grow up and get a normal sized car.

well said! :p

I feel the same... its like watching a granny driving down the freeway on the cell phone, driving a honda pilot or an escalade... DRIVING DOWN THE FREE WAY AT 60 MPH GAHHHH... it drives me crazy sometimes

[MattG]

well said! :p

I feel the same... its like watching a granny driving down the freeway on the cell phone, driving a honda pilot or an escalade... DRIVING DOWN THE FREE WAY AT 60 MPH GAHHHH... it drives me crazy sometimesKind of off topic, but I saw a bumper sticker the other day that made me smile.
"Could you drive better if I shoved that cell phone up your ASS?"

[zimv20]

greetings, SUVs thread. welcome to the Political Discussions & War Discussion area. this is, of course, just a brief stopover on your way to Wasteland. enjoy your stay.

[Doctor Q]

Front page story today, Los Angeles Times:
As gas prices hit new records, there are signs that motorists may be downsizing - at least a bit.
They give statistics based on monthly sales stats to show that, since a year ago, large SUV sales are down. Ford Expedition down 34%, Lincoln Navigator down 25%, Chevy Suburban down 21%. Overall SUV sales are up 2.5% because the smaller SUVs sales are up: Saturn Vue up 59%, Chevy Blazer up 55%, Ford Escape up 49%.

[applebum]

The problem is too many people that own SUVs DON'T NEED THEM. Sorry, but I'm tired of seeing all these "soccer moms" driving down the road in their Hummers while talking on their cell phones. It's dangerous and totally unnecessary. Face it, most people (men or women) that own Hummers (or any *really* large SUV) own them so they can say "I drive a Hummer," not because they need one (aka "small penis syndrome").

If you have a valid reason for owning an SUV, fine. Otherwise, grow up and get a normal sized car.

And anyone that uses AC in their homes and offices DON'T NEED IT! It is a luxury and probably the single biggest energy waster in our country. Even the elderly simply need a fan and plenty of fluid. How about TV? What is anyone's valid reason for having a television? It is purely entertainment. Any power used to watch tv is a pure waste. That being said, I love to sit in my cool house and watch some television. The main point is that if we complain about people that use something without a valid reason - we are all guilty.

[Backtothemac]

Well for example. The old lady that just left my store, left in a Ford Excursion. I asked her if she hauls her grand kids around. Nope, doesn't have any. Needs it for long trips, nope, doesn't take them. Asked why she would have such a big truck. She like the way she looks in it. She said she is spending over 60$ a week in gas. That is nice. A waste. Total waste.

Yea, we have individual rights, but as I said earlier, when they are at society's expense, then they are no longer a right.

[ejb190]

If you want to save the Earth, lower gas prices, and generally make the world a better place, I can tell you exactly how to do it....

SLOW DOWN!

I drive a Saturn VUE. (For my job, this vehicle is perfect - not too big, not too small.) I tried an experiment over the last couple weeks. Each time I fueled up, I tried to consistantly drive at a different speed. Not real scientific, but I wanted to see what kind of difference it made. I drive a pretty even mix of city and highway miles. The results looked something like this:

MPH - Miles/Gallon
70 - 22
65 - 24
60 - 25
55 - 27

Sure I had to give myself more time to get places, but I found I was giving myself lots of time, showing up early, and feeling a lot more relaxed in the process. You might want to try it!

[IJ Reilly]

And anyone that uses AC in their homes and offices DON'T NEED IT! It is a luxury and probably the single biggest energy waster in our country. Even the elderly simply need a fan and plenty of fluid. How about TV? What is anyone's valid reason for having a television? It is purely entertainment. Any power used to watch tv is a pure waste. That being said, I love to sit in my cool house and watch some television. The main point is that if we complain about people that use something without a valid reason - we are all guilty.

Well of course you are right, in a reductum ad absurdum world.

[Spizzo]

If you want to save the Earth, lower gas prices, and generally make the world a better place, I can tell you exactly how to do it....

SLOW DOWN!

I drive a Saturn VUE. (For my job, this vehicle is perfect - not too big, not too small.) I tried an experiment over the last couple weeks. Each time I fueled up, I tried to consistantly drive at a different speed. Not real scientific, but I wanted to see what kind of difference it made. I drive a pretty even mix of city and highway miles. The results looked something like this:

MPH - Miles/Gallon
70 - 22
65 - 24
60 - 25
55 - 27

Sure I had to give myself more time to get places, but I found I was giving myself lots of time, showing up early, and feeling a lot more relaxed in the process. You might want to try it!

OK, so how does this lower the gas prices?

[MattG]

And anyone that uses AC in their homes and offices DON'T NEED IT! It is a luxury and probably the single biggest energy waster in our country. Even the elderly simply need a fan and plenty of fluid. How about TV? What is anyone's valid reason for having a television? It is purely entertainment. Any power used to watch tv is a pure waste. That being said, I love to sit in my cool house and watch some television. The main point is that if we complain about people that use something without a valid reason - we are all guilty.I don't know where you live, but in Southwest Florida, A/C is not a luxury, it's pretty much a necessity. Television isn't something you *need*, but I don't see anybody arguing that anyway.

Regardless, in comparison to everyone that owns SUVs, I'm sure there are a hell of a lot more people that can qualify the need for A/C or a television set.

[Backtothemac]

OK, so how does this lower the gas prices?

Because it reduces comsumption. Image if every car in the US got 3 miles per gallon more than it does. It would reduce consumption by millions of barrels of oil per day.

[iJon]

If you want to save the Earth, lower gas prices, and generally make the world a better place, I can tell you exactly how to do it....

SLOW DOWN!

I drive a Saturn VUE. (For my job, this vehicle is perfect - not too big, not too small.) I tried an experiment over the last couple weeks. Each time I fueled up, I tried to consistantly drive at a different speed. Not real scientific, but I wanted to see what kind of difference it made. I drive a pretty even mix of city and highway miles. The results looked something like this:

MPH - Miles/Gallon
70 - 22
65 - 24
60 - 25
55 - 27

Sure I had to give myself more time to get places, but I found I was giving myself lots of time, showing up early, and feeling a lot more relaxed in the process. You might want to try it!
but doesnt this vary with every car and its rpm levels. i know the best speed for my liberty is 67, that is where i get the best gas mileage.

iJon

[Spizzo]

Because it reduces comsumption. Image if every car in the US got 3 miles per gallon more than it does. It would reduce consumption by millions of barrels of oil per day.

But thats not the problem, the problem is that OPEC keeps reducing the production of oil, they kept cutting back and cutting back to get the prices to go higher. If they wanted to, we could be getting oil for 15-20 dollars a barrel, not 38-43. But it's all not just OPEC. I know for a fact that they do the same thing with oil produced in the US. They slow production up at Alyeska/North Slope to drive up prices too. When I used to run up there to pick up oil, we'd sometimes sit for a week waiting for all the ships ahead of us to load. Now I have friends who tell me that they wait, not for other ships, but for the Terminal to have enough oil for them to load.

[dopefiend]

but doesnt this vary with every car and its rpm levels.
iJon


Sure does.

I get the best gas mileage going roughly 80mph@3000rpm :D

[iJon]

i don't know why we keep having these threads. everyone ends up hating someone and they are all the same. most people would hate my family. we have 4 cars at our house (not including the motorhome and company trucks) and they are 2 jeeps, a suburban and a sports car. i guess the z3 roadster would be the only car that doesnt have a justification, but it is fun as hell to drive and gets good gas milage.

iJon

[Backtothemac]

But thats not the problem, the problem is that OPEC keeps reducing the production of oil, they kept cutting back and cutting back to get the prices to go higher. If they wanted to, we could be getting oil for 15-20 dollars a barrel, not 38-43. But it's all not just OPEC. I know for a fact that they do the same thing with oil produced in the US. They slow production up at Alyeska/North Slope to drive up prices too. When I used to run up there to pick up oil, we'd sometimes sit for a week waiting for all the ships ahead of us to load. Now I have friends who tell me that they wait, not for other ships, but for the Terminal to have enough oil for them to load.


Ok, this is just not true. The problem is not OPEC's production. They are not cutting production, they are increasing it. We (as of 2001) were using over 19 million barrels a day. Think about that. If we cut it to say 15 million, would that effect pricing? If we could build new refinery's that were better would that not help?

The Saudi's are increasing their production even as we speak.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44784-2004May21.html?nav=rss_business

Futhermore. We need to build more nuclear plants in the US, and find alternative methods of fuel. BUT, everyone has the 'not in my backyard' approach to things.

Sad, we are heading to a crash in about 30 - 50 years.

[Backtothemac]

i don't know why we keep having these threads. everyone ends up hating someone and they are all the same. most people would hate my family. we have 4 cars at our house (not including the motorhome and company trucks) and they are 2 jeeps, a suburban and a sports car. i guess the z3 roadster would be the only car that doesnt have a justification, but it is fun as hell to drive and gets good gas milage.

iJon


iJon, I don't think it is a matter of hate. To me, it is like loud music. If I am your neighbor, and I play my music loud, it is rude right? If someone NEEDS an SUV, then that is a different story. People that drive them just because they can, or for a status symbol. Well, I feel that that is rude you know.

[iJon]

iJon, I don't think it is a matter of hate. To me, it is like loud music. If I am your neighbor, and I play my music loud, it is rude right? If someone NEEDS an SUV, then that is a different story. People that drive them just because they can, or for a status symbol. Well, I feel that that is rude you know.
yeah i understand that (plus you would hate my and my jeep with its loud music :)) we bought that suburban to tow a 36 ft long trailer but opted for the motorhome instead. needed a car to pull behind the motohome so dad got the wrangler. works perfect and also is perfect when he goes hunting and needs to go through the woods in the mountains and stuff. i liked the wrangler so i got the liberty. i dont need to wheel in it but i find places to go and get dirty. the suburban usually just sits in the driveway unless we are picking up a bunch of people, commutes to the airport, or if we have a a trip to lowes and bunches of stuff to get, the usual. yeah getting a suv and having no use is probably a waste, but hey, what can you do. personally i am interested in the new diesel liberty. suv that can go just about anywhere and get 30+ mpg.

iJon

[IJ Reilly]

Because it reduces comsumption. Image if every car in the US got 3 miles per gallon more than it does. It would reduce consumption by millions of barrels of oil per day.

More importantly, it would reduce gasoline consumption by a like amount. The real bottleneck right now, and one of the major causes of the price increase, is the inadequate refining capacity.

[zimv20]

the problem is that OPEC keeps reducing the production of oil, they kept cutting back and cutting back to get the prices to go higher. If they wanted to, we could be getting oil for 15-20 dollars a barrel, not 38-43. But it's all not just OPEC. I know for a fact that they do the same thing with oil produced in the US.
fwiw, abcnews ran a piece last night that identifies high demand, principally increase in demand from china, as the culprit. i.e. not OPEC production, not the US' refining capacity.

if true, and if, as abcnews said, china is only going to increase demand, then these high oil prices may be here to stay. the sooner we get used to the idea of $4-5/gallon for gas, the better.

[Spizzo]

fwiw, abcnews ran a piece last night that identifies high demand, principally increase in demand from china, as the culprit. i.e. not OPEC production, not the US' refining capacity.

if true, and if, as abcnews said, china is only going to increase demand, then these high oil prices may be here to stay. the sooner we get used to the idea of $4-5/gallon for gas, the better.

True, there may be an increased demand from China, but OPEC has slowed production. It's basic supply and demand. OPEC could start to produce more, but then they start to lose money, so they dont want to do that. But Saudi is getting a lot of pressure from the US, so they are pushing to increase production to keep us happy. But I also believe what you are saying is true, we are going to be paying a lot more than what we used to, and we need to accept that.

But there are also alternatives. Many countries in Asia and around the world use Natural Gas as a big source of there energy. Yes, i know we use it here too, i have gas heat/stove. But we could also be using it to power our vehicles. About two months ago i was down in the Vancouver WA/Portland OR area and i saw a Dodge Ram that had been converted to run on Natural Gas. I know the US is just now starting to build LNG (Liquid Natural Gas) Terminals, i think they have/will have them in Boston, Savannah, and down off the Mississippi Delta. And NG is just as plentiful as oil.

[Lord Blackadder]

I don't like SUVs. But apparently a *lot* of people do. Whenever I drive home from work in Cleveland I am surrounded by 7 passenger vehicles powered by V6 or V8 engines plowing their shoebox aerodynamics and 2-4 ton bulk along at 75 miles an hour toting 1 person who is trying to cradle a tiny cell phone between their head and shoulder while driving. Maybe they're complaining to someone about how much gas is lately...WHOA HEY PICK A LANE GEEEZ THAT GUY ALMOST CLIPPED ME WHAT A @#$%*.....oh, sorry. My favorite auto magazine, CAR (from the UK), summed up SUVs as "horribly offensive". But hey, I know some perfectly decent people that like Meatloaf (the band, although I'm not terribly keen on the food either), and I find that horribly offensive too. (apologies to meatloaf fans, I guess)

They should make the cell phones bigger and the cars smaller :D

[IJ Reilly]

http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/23/news/economy/gas_aaa/

Among the factors listed are rising consumption, insufficient refining capacity, complicated federal and state clean fuel regulations and chronically low inventories.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/21/business/21oil.html

But it would be very difficult for OPEC to overcome high prices by itself, he said, because simply pumping more crude would not address shortages of refinery capacity and other "downstream" bottlenecks and problems.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4687028/

This number measures of how much of their total refining is being used, week by week. Right now, the average level is about 88 percent of capacity, which means there’s still a little excess in the system to deal with short-term interruptions like a fire, or pipeline breaking, or routine shutdown for maintenance.

But as this number rises closer to 100 percent, that margin for error goes away. Once refiners are running flat out, if one of them has to shut down for an emergency, supplies get tight and prices can spike.

Last summer, refining capacity hit rates of a little over 94 percent, according to Energy Dept. data.

[Lyle]

fwiw, abcnews ran a piece last night that identifies high demand, principally increase in demand from china, as the culprit. i.e. not OPEC production, not the US' refining capacity.This can't be China's fault. I mean, there aren't any Republicans in China, are there?

[zimv20]

This can't be China's fault. I mean, there aren't any Republicans in China, are there?
not china's fault, no. it's the fault of abcnews for telling us about it, eh? ;-)

[hulugu]

...But it's all a rationalization. Even with the Pirus, we'd still be polluting. For that matter, the computer I'm typing on uses energy, which pollutes. But it's all what we decide to personally accept. My wife's need for space outweighed her urge to conserve. My irrational need to share this story overweighed my urge to cut off the computer (or write the press release I need to do :D ).

All this is to say that while I agree with dvdh's assertion that we all have to do our part. And some of us will have to make up for the indiscretions of others. And I'm sure that there's some guy in Zambia that doesn't even have a car in his village that will help make up for mine.

It's all about mitigation. Think of it, you do things every day to mitigate danger, you drive well, you wear your seatbelt, you don't walk in dark alleys at night in bad areas of town, you have insurance. These are all mitigations of overall effects. You may be robbed and mugged in broad daylight in the nicest part of town, but you are more likely to be robbed in that dark alley. You made a choice to mitigate your danger, thus you can also make a choice to mitigate your personal affect on the environment. This is larger than you, but to go back to a cliche adage, think globally, act locally.
Someone above mentioned that most CO2 is from factories, and someone else mentioned Mount St. Helens, the fact is our cars are adding to it. We can't stop volcanos, but we can work to lessen our affect and lobby for our utility companies to start using renewable systems.
We might also consider helping 3rd world countries to stop slash-and-burn deforestation which not only destroys the rain forests (which take in massive amounts of CO2) but renders the remaining land a desert. Furthermore, we need to be more careful with our mercury usages because as we poison the seas not only do we poison our own food supply (fishsticks anyone?) we also kill plankton which also uses up huge amounts of CO2.
So, by buying a fuel-efficient car you are not only changing your CO2 load you are also showing the car makers that their customers want fuel-efficient cars again; they'll get their engineers going again.

It's not one thing, it's everything.
Consumers have power, but that power's like rain, one drop is nothing, a million is a force of nature.

[hulugu]

i don't know why we keep having these threads. everyone ends up hating someone and they are all the same. most people would hate my family. we have 4 cars at our house (not including the motorhome and company trucks) and they are 2 jeeps, a suburban and a sports car. i guess the z3 roadster would be the only car that doesnt have a justification, but it is fun as hell to drive and gets good gas milage.

iJon

You own the suburban to tow a trailer, the Jeeps are Wranglers (good mileage for what they are), and the z3 actually gets good mileage. Having a few cars is fine. I just don't like that one guy using a H2 (the poster child for conspicuous consumption, which to me looks like the micromachine version of a real HUMMVEE) who commutes 45 minutes either way going 70. This guy could have an Accord, he could even have a Jeep Grand Cherokee, but he doesn't because he superficially needs that H2, no matter how bad the mileage is.
You need space, you tow things, you go out into the boonies, or you live where the snow piles high, and have an SUV I don't have a problem. You get one to show how bling-bling you are, I'm going to give you the finger.
I also have a problem w/ 4000+/- sq. ft. houses for two people (in Tucson these things eat up huge amounts of electricity to cool), poor regulatory acts, and the Bush environmental record.

[Sun Baked]

What is this "hell" you talk about? :pA 30 day Pauly Shore Marathon.

On EVERY channel once a month for every SUV owner.

[hulugu]

A 30 day Pauly Shore Marathon.

On EVERY channel once a month for every SUV owner.

But I just saw Encino Man! Not Biodome! Noooooooo!

[jelloshotsrule]

A 30 day Pauly Shore Marathon.

On EVERY channel once a month for every SUV owner.

weeeeeeeeeeasel!

[sushi]

As for "only living once"... ever merge onto a highway in a Civic hatchback? People pay good money for that kind of thrill!
:D :D :D

Sushi

[Neserk]

I *Hate* SUV's. I can't see around the damn things. And most people who drive them don't know how to drive a large vehicle. I at least have the sense to know that and don't do it!

I think that in order to buy an SUV you should have to show need. Like: you have more than 3 kids, you are a girl scout leader and frequently transport large numbers of people in a carpool. Everyone else either shouldn't be permitted to have them or should be heavily taxed. I also think they should have to pay triple of what the rest of us pay for renewing their registration (not the people who actually need them, but the "keeping up with the Jones" types.) ARGHHHHHHHH! SUV's are evil.

[sushi]

if true, and if, as abcnews said, china is only going to increase demand, then these high oil prices may be here to stay. the sooner we get used to the idea of $4-5/gallon for gas, the better.
Places like Japan and Europe have much higher gas prices than the states.

Gas is cheap in the states!

As gas prices increase, supply and demand will take over. Folks who have SUVs that are not fuel efficient will move to something else if gas prices are too much for them.

Sushi

[dopefiend]

Places like Japan and Europe have much higher gas prices than the states.

Gas is cheap in the states!
Sushi

Yours is mostly taxes that you get benifits from....

Ours is not.

[Ugg]

As gas prices increase, supply and demand will take over. Folks who have SUVs that are not fuel efficient will move to something else if gas prices are too much for them.

Sushi

Supply and demand are not limited to individual consumers. India and China are booming and they are in the process of building thousands of miles of new superhighways. This will only increase the demand for oil around the world so prices will only continue to rise. China is already the world's largest consumer of steel and I would wager that in another decade they will be the largest consumer of oil. Is it too unreal to think of a Chinese takeover of Saudi Arabia?

[Doctor Q]

I hear ads for Sport Activity Vehicles. Is this just marketing fluff or are there really sport other-than-utility vehicles?

[pseudobrit]

I think that in order to buy an SUV you should have to show need.

I think you should have a separate license classification. Many SUV drivers are very inept at piloting such a vehicle.

[Sun Baked]

SUVs -- built to car safety standards... :rolleyes:

Federal vehicle roof crush standard -- 1,000 lbs static.

Equals -- so so roof on a cars.

And roofs that'll crush down on the SUV, if it is dropped 6 inches.

[Mike Teezie]

Off topic, but I find it ironic that the 4 google ads at the bottom of this page are for SUVs.

[IJ Reilly]

By the way, I have an SUV, I have always driven an SUV (learned to drive on a Dodge Ramcharger...) and I always will drive an SUV. What is America if we cannot enjoy our freedom? And no, my having an SUV does in no way impede your pursuit of freedom. No matter how far your stretch your anguish at owning a small car.

Is this how you feel seriously, or you just busting chops here?

[Neserk]

I think you should have a separate license classification. Many SUV drivers are very inept at piloting such a vehicle.


Oops. Forgot that. That was where I was going with the "most people can't drive them" part. You should have to be able to demonstrate you can drive one safely, too.

[sushi]

Yours is mostly taxes that you get benifits from....

Ours is not.
That is debatable.

But understand your comment.

The point I was trying to make is that if prices rise in the states, folks will reconsider their purchases based on fuel efficiency. Currently there is little reason for them to do so.

Sushi

[sushi]

Supply and demand are not limited to individual consumers. India and China are booming and they are in the process of building thousands of miles of new superhighways. This will only increase the demand for oil around the world so prices will only continue to rise.
Agreed.

China is already the world's largest consumer of steel and I would wager that in another decade they will be the largest consumer of oil. Is it too unreal to think of a Chinese takeover of Saudi Arabia?
Not sure I follow your logic.

What do you mean by a "Chinese takeover of Saudi Arabia?" comment?

Sushi

[jelloshotsrule]

Off topic, but I find it ironic that the 4 google ads at the bottom of this page are for SUVs.

i believe these ads are "smart ads" or something that basically scan the page and put a fitting ad in there.... keep an eye out on other pages in the forums. i bet you'll see a similar thing


suvs also have terribly manufactured headlights... they always look like the highbeams are on.... whereas, big 18 wheelers don't.... so clearly something is wrong there, it's not just a "fact of life" with higher/bigger mobiles....

but that's just the tip of the iceberg with suv problems


http://www.walksf.org/suvTicket.pdf

these can be fun.... much more productive and more "acceptable" than sticking a bumper sticker on suvs on the street...

[Neserk]

suvs also have terribly manufactured headlights... they always look like the highbeams are on..

Another thing I hate about SUV's. Being blinded!

[IIvan]

You should also think of some of the other issues of SUV's (besides the oil- which is terrible enough). For example- if you are driving a little car, and some asshole in an H2 hits you hard- you're ****ing dead! I got hit by a Ford Expedition once, and the damage was catastrophic- can only imagine a really huge SUV! THey also restrict vision, and are more dangerous as they accelerate and brake slower than most other vehicles, and their drivers seem to be proportionally of much less skill then most.

Most people that I know that own SUVs are just into it for the fashion. A minivan is one thing, but SUVs are all about image and compensation and you usually see a regular old housewife (albeit one with money) piloting it alone, or a really wannabe tough macho guy.


You have a right to do what you want- BUT not if it is harmfull to others. SUVs are dangerous to other drivers, and the environment in general (A ford Excursion gets an average of 9 MPG!) which effects all of us.

Since no one would legislate against them, I say we tell all of these SUV owners how not cool it is to own an SUV, and maybe their popularity will decline

[IJ Reilly]

Actually, any conventional automobile, small or large, is vulnerable to being t-boned by an SUV. They're practically designed to ride up and over the side-impact zones of cars, because they're not required to meet the same bumper placement standards as cars. Because, of course, they aren't cars...

[iJon]

Actually, any conventional automobile, small or large, is vulnerable to being t-boned by an SUV. They're practically designed to ride up and over the side-impact zones of cars, because they're not required to meet the same bumper placement standards as cars. Because, of course, they aren't cars...
hell, my dad has taken out about 3 cars with the suburban. all three times he was parked and a women was driving. they would drive right into the back of him. suburban never took any damage while that hitch would take just go all inside the car, causing tons of damage, its built like a tank.

iJon

[Spizzo]

I think all you SUV haters out there should get a real problem!

If you dont like em, dont drive em. But dont judge me cause i do. You dont know me, or my life, or what i use it for.

Someone mentioned reduced visibility around em, reminds me of today when a small Dodge Colt was over in my lane, so i had to pull up close to him to get around (turning right @ a red), and my mirror was above his roof. You shoulda been there, it was funny.

I guess everyone here has never been cut off by someone using a cell phone in a car, cause only SUV drivers are the macho a** holes. It's funny how much some of you get worked up. You'd think an SUV drove up to your house when you were younger, killed your mother, and said you were next.

No one here seems to have mentioned 18 wheelers at all, other than their lights. The highways are way overcrowded with these gas guzzeling monsters. They put considerable wear/tear on the roads which costs us millions in tax $ each year. They use a ton of fuel, put out tons of emissions, especially when the drivers have them running almost 24/7 (go to any truckstop at night and you will hear the trucks running while the drivers sleep). But without these trucks, walmart and safeway wouldnt have what you need to live. You wouldnt have gas at the gas station.

There are alternatives that congress is looking into right now to reduce the number of trucks on the nations highways. Hopefully they will pass something, but, like everything else that would be good for the country, i doubt it will happen.

So, when you see me driving my Tahoe tomorrow morning, doing 70 down the highway. Talking on my cellphone, with my leather seat reclined back, and no one else inside to take advantage of my 3 rows of seatting, I'll be sure to wave before i get on the gas, pull a little bit ahead of you, and cut you off without using my blinker. :D

[iJon]

I think all you SUV haters out there should get a real problem!

If you dont like em, dont drive em. But dont judge me cause i do. You dont know me, or my life, or what i use it for.

Someone mentioned reduced visibility around em, reminds me of today when a small Dodge Colt was over in my lane, so i had to pull up close to him to get around (turning right @ a red), and my mirror was above his roof. You shoulda been there, it was funny.

I guess everyone here has never been cut off by someone using a cell phone in a car, cause only SUV drivers are the macho a** holes. It's funny how much some of you get worked up. You'd think an SUV drove up to your house when you were younger, killed your mother, and said you were next.

No one here seems to have mentioned 18 wheelers at all, other than their lights. The highways are way overcrowded with these gas guzzeling monsters. They put considerable wear/tear on the roads which costs us millions in tax $ each year. They use a ton of fuel, put out tons of emissions, especially when the drivers have them running almost 24/7 (go to any truckstop at night and you will hear the trucks running while the drivers sleep). But without these trucks, walmart and safeway wouldnt have what you need to live. You wouldnt have gas at the gas station.

There are alternatives that congress is looking into right now to reduce the number of trucks on the nations highways. Hopefully they will pass something, but, like everything else that would be good for the country, i doubt it will happen.

So, when you see me driving my Tahoe tomorrow morning, doing 70 down the highway. Talking on my cellphone, with my leather seat reclined back, and no one else inside to take advantage of my 3 rows of seatting, I'll be sure to wave before i get on the gas, pull a little bit ahead of you, and cut you off without using my blinker. :D
haha that was amusing. i think one problem people see is that even if the person is the only one in the car, that they do nothing but drive themselves. i usually have 4 free seats in my liberty and are usually on the main roads. but occasionly i will have 4 people in teh car, and have it covered in mud on the off roads. im sure most suv drivers use its full purpose from time to time, they dont have to every day.

iJon

[sushi]

two words: gas guzzler.
Individuals should have a right to choose what they want to drive.

Sushi

[sushi]

We need a new economy based on something besides fossil fuels.
Agreed.

And the fact that my Jeep CJ-7, built in 1980 using an engine design from the 60s, gets 16mpg while a brand-new SUV gets 14-24 is just depressing.
Disappointing I would say with all the technological advances.

Sushi

[skunk]

Individuals should have a right to choose what they want to drive.
Sushi
For once, I agree with you! :D
As the proud owner of a "Chelsea tractor", as they're known over here, which has a mind-blowing sound system, a built-in fridge/freezer, gets 25-30mpg (diesel) and goes wherever it's told, I defend my right to spend a disproportionate amount of my income on fuel, and I'll ram anyone who says otherwise! :D

[sushi]

The problem is too many people that own SUVs DON'T NEED THEM.
How do you determine who doesn't need them?

If you have a valid reason for owning an SUV, fine.
What is a valid reason?

Sushi

[sushi]

"Could you drive better if I shoved that cell phone up your ASS?"
Cute!

Wonder if it is true? :eek:

Sushi

[skunk]

Cute!

Wonder if it is true? :eek:

Sushi
You'd have to use your bluetooth headset or the conversation might get bit muffled. Dunno what it would do for your driving, though. ;)

[sushi]

I also have a problem w/ 4000+/- sq. ft. houses for two people (in Tucson these things eat up huge amounts of electricity to cool), poor regulatory acts, and the Bush environmental record.
So now we are going to regulate how much space people can have?

You're kidding right?

Sushi

[sushi]

By the way, I have an SUV, I have always driven an SUV (learned to drive on a Dodge Ramcharger...) and I always will drive an SUV. What is America if we cannot enjoy our freedom? And no, my having an SUV does in no way impede your pursuit of freedom.
Agreed. And good for you in exercising your freedom.

Sushi

[sushi]

He also mentioned a few things that we haven't mentioned... (like China's increased usage. He says that the U.S. is somewhere around 20 barrels of oil per person, per year. He said that China has crept up to 1.6 barrels per person per year. His point, can you imagine the worldwide demand when it gets to 5 barrels per person in China?)

Also, he said if the Saudi's increased production for us it won't help. He said that their excess would be sour crude and sour crude refineries are at capacity.
That is why there needs to be a focus on alternative fuel/energy sources.

Sushi

[sushi]

I think you should have a separate license classification. Many SUV drivers are very inept at piloting such a vehicle.
Good point!

Unsafe drivers endanger everyone.

By having a separate qualification, it would ensure a minimum operating level ability by SUV operators. Just like large truck certification. I am all for it.

Sushi

[sushi]

For once, I agree with you! :D
Oh my God! :D

Sushi

[sushi]

You'd have to use your bluetooth headset or the conversation might get bit muffled. Dunno what it would do for your driving, though. ;)
Good one! :D

On a side note, I would hate to be the technician who needs to adjust the phone settings after this use! :eek:

Sushi

[skunk]

Good one! :D

On a side note, I would hate to be the technician who needs to adjust the phone settings after this use! :eek:

Sushi
Perhaps it's time to change the subject... :eek:

[sushi]

As the proud owner of a "Chelsea tractor", as they're known over here
URL?

TIA,

Sushi

[skunk]

URL?

TIA,

Sushi
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2000/10/31/emflex31.xml
Whatever the outcome of this marketing logic, the 2,200 Brits who decide that the RX300 is the must-have Chelsea tractor of the new millennium won't be disappointed.

In keeping with current trends towards steering your 4x4 well clear of any such ghastly beastliness as real mud, the RX300 is not so much an SUV as a WOE (Wafty Outsized Estate). This places it in direct contention with the likes of Mercedes-Benz's M-class, the Volvo Cross Country and Audi Allroad.
Generic term for 4x4s used by mums in Chelsea (posh area of London) to ferry their brats to school. Used by me, on the other hand, for towing, long-distance European travel, off-roading and carrying tools and equipment. And of course, going to the opera. Not. :)

And I wouldn't be seen dead in a Lexus....

[IJ Reilly]

I think all you SUV haters out there should get a real problem!

If you dont like em, dont drive em. But dont judge me cause i do. You dont know me, or my life, or what i use it for.

So, do you think SUVs should continue to be exempted from safety and fuel economy standards?

[zimv20]

I think all you SUV haters out there should get a real problem! <awesome tale of machismo chomped>
are you the marlboro man?

[MattG]

How do you determine who doesn't need them?


What is a valid reason?

SushiUmm...People that have enough stuff to carry around on a daily basis to necessitate owning an SUV?

[IJ Reilly]

Umm...People that have enough stuff to carry around on a daily basis to necessitate owning an SUV?

Now, this is a bogus justification. For this to be true, you'd have to demonstrate why people have so much more "stuff" to haul around today compared to ten years ago. In fact, for most owners, an SUV is a fashion accessory. Owning them is a fad -- which, with a little luck, is nearly over.

[MattG]

Now, this is a bogus justification. For this to be true, you'd have to demonstrate why people have so much more "stuff" to haul around today compared to ten years ago. In fact, for most owners, an SUV is a fashion accessory. Owning them is a fad -- which, with a little luck, is nearly over.You make a good point!

[iJon]

Umm...People that have enough stuff to carry around on a daily basis to necessitate owning an SUV?
why does it have to be a daily basis. if thats the case i might as well buy a motorcycle since im usually the only one in my jeep. even its its a couple times a week, a month, or even one big trip in the year it would serve its purpose.

iJon

[jelloshotsrule]

why does it have to be a daily basis. if thats the case i might as well buy a motorcycle since im usually the only one in my jeep. even its its a couple times a week, a month, or even one big trip in the year it would serve its purpose.

iJon

i don't think your point is entirely baseless.

but i'm not sure the "one big trip a year" is adequate if it's your only car...

but like you said, your family has the big suburban (i think that's the one) that you use relatively infrequently... so that's kinda the right idea. use it when needed, and not when you're just commuting. of course, this requires the funds to have multiple cars, etc... but obviously you have that luxury. ;)

[Spizzo]

are you the marlboro man?

No, smoking is bad. All those nasty fumes, *cough cough* :D

I was thinking though, some people have mentioned that we (SUV) drivers should take special classes because we are all bad drivers. (Actually other than having a ton of s*** to haul, or a boat to tow, being a bad driver automatically qualifies you to own an SUV). My question is that what about all the old people driving their big Lincolns and Caddy's? Do they have to take a class too so they can be quaified to drive their boats?

I ask because my brother has an 84 Coup Deville which is longer than a Ford Excursion. It has a bigger gas tank than my Tahoe, and burns more oil than the Gulf War. He bought it from some old grandma (no offense ment to all the older people of the forum) who used it as a daily driver before. I hate driving this thing cause its sooooo long, so i cant imagine that it's safe for some old people to be driving. Just what we need, another person plowing into the Santa Monica Prom. in one of these.

Should we outlaw any vehicle that is over a ton? Not let someone drive one with out a vaild need? No, this is America People, land of the almost free and kinda brave, but mostly fat and lazy. I have the right to own a gun just for the hell of it. I have the right to say what i want. Or to Worship Allah, Ja, Buddah, Jesus, Ra, King Neptune, or the Devil. I can come right out and Say George Bush is a dumb ************ who should be ***********. And i can burn as much damn gas as i want when i drive down the highway.

Yes, for many people, maybe they do drive an SUV to look cool. "Check me out in my new "H2" that i just bought. Sure, the closest I'll ever get to driving it off road is that dirt on the road near that construction sight i just drove past, but so." I agree that many people may not need them. But maybe they have them as a comfort. They see Joe Blow driving his 'burban around every day, and dont like how vulnerable they feel next to him in thier Yugo. So they upgrade to the new Ford Exterminator so they can keep their familys safe and sould.

I know this is a long post, but let me finish by saying something i said earlier this year in another anti-suv post. I dont live in the big city, but have driven my SUV around Seattle, and it sucks. If i did live in or near a big city, i would trade my SUV in for a Audi S4 in a min. Oh, and like iJon ( i think it was him) said, i too have been driving SUV's since i learned to drive. Only it was a 4x4 back then, SUV's hadent been invented yet. (87 Yota Landcruiser).

Sorry bout the length/rant! :rolleyes:

[zimv20]

spiz does hit upon a good point, that vehicular needs in the city often differ from those in the country. my anti-SUV bias, aside from stemming from the environmental concerns, is tainted by my city livin'.

i am in favor of stricter driving requirements in general, but not specifically for people who choose to drive a vehicle already covered by their license.

i am also in favor of the cops actually enforcing laws. i can't count the number of times i've seen cops ignore an infraction; it's almost the number of times i've seen cops committing them.

now --

the larger SUVs are not passenger cars and should not be treated as them. let's require different licensing (motorcyclists need them) and treat them as trucks. in chicago, trucks are not allowed on boulevards, including lake shore drive. i say let's get the larger SUVs treated the same way.

these things are horrible on fuel. let's tax gas more (maybe to the point that it overcomes the subsidies) and let the market sort it out. maybe raise the mileage standards for gas guzzlers. and get congress to make real changes to the manufacturers' mileage requirements.

when i see an SUV taking up two lanes, i wanna see a ticket. when i see an SUV taking two parking spaces, i wanna see a ticket. (check out the parking garages in downtown chicago -- i've never seen so many excursions, explorers and land rovers trying to cram into spots labeled "Compact Car Only")

finally, let's educate the public on the _real_ safety records of SUVs. the head of the NHTSA won't let his kids drive one.

[Spizzo]

[QUOTE=zimv20]in chicago, trucks are not allowed on boulevards, including lake shore drive. i say let's get the larger SUVs treated the same way.
[QUOTE]

Is this trucks as in big rigs? or trucks as in Ford F-150?

And I agree, if someone is driving a SUV or bigger car for that matter, they should learn how to park/drive em.

Edit = Fix Quote

[jelloshotsrule]

My question is that what about all the old people driving their big Lincolns and Caddy's? Do they have to take a class too so they can be quaified to drive their boats?

And i can burn as much damn gas as i want when i drive down the highway.


1. yes, i think people should have to be licensed specifically for a car/suv/truck that exceeds what is "normal" size for a car... i would say that smallish station wagons (they generally don't make the huge long ones of old anymore) would be "cars", but not sure about minivans... the fact is, better to take the time for some training than to have all sorts of wrecks...

2. that's good in theory, but isn't there something to be said for your rights cease when it infringes on the rights of everyone else? i could just the same say "i have the right to breathe fresh air"...

i like your post, in its levelheadedness at least. :)

hopefully this can be a constructive discussion.

[zimv20]

Is this trucks as in big rigs? or trucks as in Ford F-150?

anything that's licensed as a truck. unless i'm mistaken, open pickups are licensed as trucks, but SUVs can be licensed on cars.

so a small mazda pickup isn't allowed on the boulevards, but Hummers are. doesn't make any sense.

[pseudobrit]

i usually have 4 free seats in my liberty and are usually on the main roads.

Ditto.

but occasionly i will have 4 people in teh car, and have it covered in mud on the off roads.

Cool! I had four people (including me) in my car last weekend and had it covered in mud and grass on the off-roads.

In my Golf.

Which gets 50 mpg.

[iJon]

Ditto.



Cool! I had four people (including me) in my car last weekend and had it covered in mud and grass on the off-roads.

In my Golf.

Which gets 50 mpg.
whee. well i have a feeling i go places that a golf couldn't get through, but you may seize to amaze me.

iJon

[dopefiend]

Cool! I had four people (including me) in my car last weekend and had it covered in mud and grass on the off-roads.

In my Golf.

Which gets 50 mpg.

Right :rolleyes:

Lets see that golf make it over a street curb , lol...

[pseudobrit]

anything that's licensed as a truck. unless i'm mistaken, open pickups are licensed as trucks, but SUVs can be licensed on cars.

so a small mazda pickup isn't allowed on the boulevards, but Hummers are. doesn't make any sense.

It varies from state to state, of course. In my state, the registration costs for trucks and SUVs are significantly more than those for cars, but SUVs get passenger car tags.

I'd like to see the drivers of SUVs have license certification on par with that required to drive a truck like a Mitsubishi Fuso sized vehicle and I'd like to see the owner pay the same exorbitant road taxes and higher registration fees.

Diesel is taxed heavily because the rigs that burn it tear the roads up, but I pay the same tax when I fill up my little rollerskate of a derv and a former co-worker of mine pays the same road taxes to run his diesel lawnmower.

Some people might see it as restricting their freedom to [insert some notion of what "being American is all about"].

I call it parity.

[pseudobrit]

Right :rolleyes:

Lets see that golf make it over a street curb , lol...

Tell me, if I'm off-road, why the **** to I need to go over a curb?

Think about it.

[iJon]

Tell me, if I'm off-road, why the **** to I need to go over a curb?

Think about it.
maybe a better question is what is your definition of off roading?

iJon

[dopefiend]

Tell me, if I'm off-road, why the **** to I need to go over a curb?

Think about it.

ok...a big rock...

Damn the specifics. You know what I was saying :rolleyes:

[pseudobrit]

maybe a better question is what is your definition of off roading?

iJon

Driving where there is no paved road.

[Sun Baked]

Tell me, if I'm off-road, why the **** to I need to go over a curb?

Think about it.To 99% of the SUV drivers in the urban jungle, the closest they get their vehicles to off-road are parking lots, driveways, gas stations, etc.

So the ability to get over curbs is extremely important. ;)

[pseudobrit]

ok...a big rock...

Damn the specifics. You know what I was saying :rolleyes:

My car is not an off-road vehicle, but that doesn't mean it's not capable of tackling a significant portion of the off-road duties that most people think are reserved for SUVs.

[dopefiend]

My car is not an off-road vehicle, but that doesn't mean it's not capable of tackling a significant portion of the off-road duties that most people think are reserved for SUVs.


Yes it does.

That car wouldn't make it through some of the simplest forms of off-roading. :rolleyes:

[pseudobrit]

Yes it does.

That car wouldn't make it through some of the simplest forms of off-roading. :rolleyes:

Can you roll your eyes once more for me and tell me how wuss-ass my car really is?

So tell me, what are the "simplest forms of off-roading?" Do railroad service roads count? They're overgrown, rutted, and generally barely navigable in places and I had my old Jetta on them at high speed. Hell, I had the thing airborne on some old dirt trails before.

Do I win your admiration now?

Tell you what, I have the ultimate off-road ability. I can bloody use my two bloody legs.

[dopefiend]

Can you roll your eyes once more for me and tell me how wuss-ass my car really is?


Well it is a Golf...thats just a given.

[Sun Baked]

Yes it does.

That car wouldn't make it through some of the simplest forms of off-roading. :rolleyes:Yes, you are probably right. No sane person would think of racing a VW Golf TDI in places without paved roads.
http://www.greenergy.com/images/motorsport/library/citydiesel_neil_simpson2.jpg

[pseudobrit]

Well it is a Golf...thats just a given.

Look at that pair of wuss-asses driving that wuss-ass Golf.

[dopefiend]

Look at that pair of wuss-asses driving that wuss-ass Golf.

And how does that one relate to your $20,000 100hp car?

[iJon]

well dopefind is just being a little harsh and annoying. that pic is pretty impressive, although its probably heaviliy modified. with pictures like that, off roading can be put into different categories. he is probably thinking more like this, places a 4x4 would go, although a a rally car in a nice muddy area would be a hell of a time.

iJon

[dopefiend]

well dopefind is just being a little harsh and annoying.
iJon


A little? Dang, I was trying so hard to be more than that :p

And yes, that is what I was thinking.

[pseudobrit]

As a pre-emptive answer to those who'll say that Golf is race-prepped and doesn't count, here's one almost identical to mine with the only modifications being the addition of a rollcage and upgraded shocks/springs (oh, and it won its classification rally series in the SCCA):

http://www.rallyvw.com/images/rally/2002gallery/maine3.jpg

http://www.rallyvw.com/images/rally/snodrift04/Petekuncis/pete3.jpg

Of course, that this guy's a wuss goes without saying.

[pseudobrit]

And how does that one relate to your $20,000 100hp car?

That pic is pretty impressive, although its probably heaviliy modified.

How adroit I am.

BTW, that championship-winning unmodified TDI ran on soy biodiesel.

[zimv20]

with pictures like that, off roading can be put into different categories. he is probably thinking more like this, places a 4x4 would go

if anyone w/ an SUV actually navigates rocks like that jeep is doing, and has done so on two different occasions, then okay. and what percentage of SUV owners do we think actually do that?

in chicago, when the roads are torn up, a much higher percentage of cars take big bumps at normal speeds than SUVs do. it's a funny site to see a basically stopped SUV, gently climbing the small asphalt cliff, while small cars whip around him to his right.

[dopefiend]

As a pre-emptive answer to those who'll say that Golf is race-prepped and doesn't count, here's one almost identical to mine with the only modifications being the addition of a rollcage and upgraded shocks/springs (oh, and it won its classification rally series in the SCCA):


I guess you don't understand the sport. Shocks/springs and a rollcage can make a whole new car.

Of course, that this guy's a wuss goes without saying.

Of course. ;) :rolleyes:

[zimv20]

Of course, that this guy's a wuss goes without saying.
ah, i see he and i use the same kind of oil (delvac-1) in our diesels.

yes, i'm a car guy w/ a 90 hp diesel. so clearly i'm not a "real" man.

[pseudobrit]

I guess you don't understand the sport. Shocks/springs and a rollcage can make a whole new car.

************. I'm a gearhead. A rollcage is a mandatory safety feature that does nothing for the car's racing ability.

New shocks and springs can alter the travel distance of the wheels. It's a significant change, but for $1000 I can do it too, and it'd hardly be a "whole new car."

Methinks you're the one out of the loop.

[pseudobrit]

ah, i see he and i use the same kind of oil (delvac-1) in our diesels.

I also use Delvac-1.

yes, i'm a car guy w/ a 90 hp diesel. so clearly i'm not a "real" man.

Same here. My penis is getting smaller just thinking about how I need to be able to scale mountains with my daily driver.

[dopefiend]

************. I'm a gearhead. A rollcage is a mandatory safety feature that does nothing for the car's racing ability.

Really? Hmm...it doesn't stiffen up the car and make it handle any better? Riiiight.


New shocks and springs can alter the travel distance of the wheels. It's a significant change, but for $1000 I can do it too, and it'd hardly be a "whole new car."

Methinks you're the one out of the loop.

For $1,000.

But your car doesn't have it.

Come on man, I'm right here. You have a wonderful economy car and I'm sure no one doubts that, but offroading, it is not.(In stock form)

[dopefiend]

Same here. My penis is getting smaller just thinking about how I need to be able to scale mountains with my daily driver.

From calling yourself a wuss to having a small penis....

Stop with the insults :p

[pseudobrit]

Really? Hmm...it doesn't stiffen up the car and make it handle any better? Riiiight.

Not nearly as much as a new swaybar would.

For $1,000.

But your car doesn't have it.

So while I mightn't win an SCCA series, I'd at least be competitive. This is a 90hp car taking on vehicles with much more horsepower.

Come on man, I'm right here. You have a wonderful economy car and I'm sure no one doubts that, but offroading, it is not.(In stock form)

You don't know what you're talking about. As much as you'd like to think you're right I know you're wrong.

You've never seen what I can do behind the wheel of a VW.

At first you doubted what the car itself could do, and when confronted with evidence to the contrary, you doubted that my car was similar enough to do similar things.

It's obvious to me that you're simply not willing to accept the fact that my economical (economy car is a phrase used for $13,000 tincans, not fuel efficient German dervs) car can perform well in offroad situations with me behind the wheel.

I wonder what excuse you'd make up if I posted video of my own car sliding about offroad. What, not if. Because I know it totally must make you feel inadequate that my car can do things you thought was reserved for the big peni... er, SUVs.

[pseudobrit]

From calling yourself a wuss to having a small penis....

Stop with the insults :p

Can't get anything past you, can I?

[dopefiend]

. It's obvious to me that you're simply not willing to accept the fact that my economical (economy car is a phrase used for $13,000 tincans, not fuel efficient German dervs) car can perform well in offroad situations with me behind the wheel.

A 16-20,000 car is what I would consider economical(good gas mileage, cheap, ugly, ect.) . Anyways...



I wonder what excuse you'd make up if I posted video of my own car sliding about offroad. What, not if. Because I know it totally must make you feel inadequate that my car can do things you thought was reserved for the big peni... er, SUVs.

Post the video, go ahead.

It makes me feel like nothing considering I don't drive an SUV.

At first you doubted what the car itself could do, and when confronted with evidence to the contrary, you doubted that my car was similar enough to do similar things.

You have shown no evidence of your car doing any of this. You show a car thats modded.

[takao]

lets see...

offroad: advantage for SUV but still got beaten by cars designed for offroad (like the jeeps you posted)

space: vans have space too (compared to the jeep which got posted they have _a lot_ more space )

horsepower: last time i checked there are a lot of other cars who have the same amount of HP with _less weight_

prestige:might be the point ;)


i find it pretty funny that there are so few of those big 'good offroading' & 'lots of space' SUVs are driving around here for a city in the center of the alps ...compared the the hordes of <150 HP diesel powered , 4 cylinder offroad cars and lots of TDI stationwagons(sp?) or even (mini)vans...

[Sun Baked]

Can't even claim an SUV is "needed" to drive in bad weather, since many people that own both TDIs (with traction control) and SUVs find they would rather drive the TDI in slippery conditions, because the SUVs weight starts to work against it when it gets icy.

And NO I cannot link you to those people to ask them.

[pseudobrit]

i find it pretty funny that there are so few of those big 'good offroading' & 'lots of space' SUVs are driving around here for a city in the center of the alps ...compared the the hordes of <150 HP diesel powered , 4 cylinder offroad cars and lots of TDI stationwagons(sp?) or even (mini)vans...

They obviously aren't as expert as dopefiend on what cars and SUVs are capable of.

[dopefiend]

They obviously aren't as expert as dopefiend on what cars and SUVs are capable of.

Waiting for that video of your car ;)

[iJon]

if anyone w/ an SUV actually navigates rocks like that jeep is doing, and has done so on two different occasions, then okay. and what percentage of SUV owners do we think actually do that?

in chicago, when the roads are torn up, a much higher percentage of cars take big bumps at normal speeds than SUVs do. it's a funny site to see a basically stopped SUV, gently climbing the small asphalt cliff, while small cars whip around him to his right.

well i havent navigated rocks like that simply cause i havent gotten that jeep to that level. later on with a lift and some better tires, then i will go visit my grandma in moab and go on hells revenge and so forth. as for the bumps, i bet more than 80% of SUV drivers don't do that, and mainly cause their vehicle couldn't even do that. one of the guys on the jeep forum went over and started bashing the porsche suv's (kind of like a pc troll here) but he proved his point along with pictures.. ive beaten (but shows no signs of wear and tear) my jeep to hell. trying to wear out those stock tires, already gotten 3 flat :). just recently had full skid protection and had rock rails welded to the frame so i feel a little safer now.

iJon

[pseudobrit]

A 16-20,000 car is what I would consider economical(good gas mileage, cheap, ugly, ect.) . Anyways...

Ever sit in a MkIV Jetta/Golf? Cheap is hardly the word I'd use. Ugly?
What the hell do you call these:

http://us.autos1.yimg.com/img.autos.yahoo.com/ag/chevrolettruck_avalanche_15002wd_2004_exterior_2_346x270.jpg

http://us.autos1.yimg.com/img.autos.yahoo.com/aic/dodge_durango_st4x2_2004_385x192.jpg

At least when you're paying north of thirty grand for a car with a cheaper interior your wallet won't feel cheap.

You have shown no evidence of your car doing any of this. You show a car thats modded.

A lightly modified car. Meeting safety requirements and throwing on coilovers is a very insignificant change. So little that the SCCA allows a car so modified to run the unmodified classification.

You doubted a Golf could do it at all until you were shown otherwise.

[iJon]

Ever sit in a MkIV Jetta/Golf? Cheap is hardly the word I'd use. Ugly?
What the hell do you call these:

http://us.autos1.yimg.com/img.autos.yahoo.com/ag/chevrolettruck_avalanche_15002wd_2004_exterior_2_346x270.jpg

http://us.autos1.yimg.com/img.autos.yahoo.com/aic/dodge_durango_st4x2_2004_385x192.jpg

At least when you're paying north of thirty grand for a car with a cheaper interior your wallet won't feel cheap.



A lightly modified car. Meeting safety requirements and throwing on coilovers is a very insignificant change. So little that the SCCA allows a car so modified to run the unmodified classification.

You doubted a Golf could do it at all until you were shown otherwise.
i loved the old durangos but the new ones (depiste all the new nice features) i still just think of it as a large penis on wheels. avalanche would be ok it if wasn't for the half plastic or whatever bottom, but i think i read they are changing that on the next version release, although i could be mistaken.

iJon

[zimv20]

as for the bumps, i bet more than 80% of SUV drivers don't do that
i can only survey the ones in front of me (who then end up behind me :-) but it's way more than 20%. i'd say 2 in 3 easily.

based on how the little cars just go around them, i'd hazard a guess that they're as sick of being behind the lumbering view-blockers as i am.

don't know if it's more funny or sad, but i've heard more than one person make the joke that they don't shop at Whole Foods (the crunchy enviro-super market) because they don't drive an SUV. one peek at the parking lot completes that joke.

[takao]

just recently had full skid protection and had rock rails welded to the frame so i feel a little safer now.

iJon

just an addition because i'm just visiting the EURO NCAP homepage (kinda european independent crash testing)

Jeep Cherokee 2003
Front and side impact rating 4 out of 5 stars Pedestrian rating 2 out of 5 stars
Test Scores: Front 9 (56%) Side 15 (83%) Belt Reminder 1 Overall 25 Pedestrian 3 (8%)
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=9&id2=174

VW Lupo (smallest VW)
Front and side impact rating 4 out of 5 stars Pedestrian rating 2 out of 5 stars
Test Scores: Front 12 (75%) Side 14 (78%) Overall 26 Pedestrian 13 (36%)
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=1&id2=27

maximum would be 37 overall points for security

[iJon]

just an addition because i'm just visiting the EURO NCAP homepage (kinda european independent crash testing)

Jeep Cherokee 2003
Front and side impact rating 4 out of 5 stars Pedestrian rating 2 out of 5 stars
Test Scores: Front 9 (56%) Side 15 (83%) Belt Reminder 1 Overall 25 Pedestrian 3 (8%)
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=9&id2=174

VW Lupo (smallest VW)
Front and side impact rating 4 out of 5 stars Pedestrian rating 2 out of 5 stars
Test Scores: Front 12 (75%) Side 14 (78%) Overall 26 Pedestrian 13 (36%)
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=1&id2=27

maximum would be 37 overall points for security
let me address zim first, i meant to say 80 percent of suv drivers dont go offroad or avoid little bumps and stuff, sorry for the confusion. i agree with you 2 and 3 is probably an accurate estimate.

as for you takao, when i said i feel safer, i was referring to offroading and not damaging my vital components underneath with rocks and so forth. and on a side note, i dont have a grand cherokee, interesting numbers go. go look for the jeep liberty (that is what i have ) i would be interested to see the numbers because the grand cherokee and liberty get much different reviews, usually the liberty getting great reviews while the gc has gotten worse reviews with loss of quality in manufacturing.

iJon

[zimv20]

let me address zim first, i meant to say 80 percent of suv drivers dont go offroad or avoid little bumps and stuff, sorry for the confusion. i agree with you 2 and 3 is probably an accurate estimate.
ah, sorry for the misunderstanding.

for chicago SUVs, i gonna guess 98% stay on road. i can remember 2 SUVs in the past 5 years, in chicago, that were actually covered in mud. only one was newer than 10 years.

[pseudobrit]

ah, sorry for the misunderstanding.

for chicago SUVs, i gonna guess 98% stay on road. i can remember 2 SUVs in the past 5 years, in chicago, that were actually covered in mud. only was was newer than 10 years.

I'm a bit of a country kid. I live in a small city that's a few miles outside a bigger one, but there's farmland all around, long, twisty, hilly country roads and more than enough unpaved roads to get a decent number of SUVs and trucks covered in mud.

The upshot is that a decent number of regular cars, including mine, also get covered in said mud.

[takao]

go look for the jeep liberty (that is what i have ) i would be interested to see the numbers because the grand cherokee and liberty get much different reviews, usually the liberty getting great reviews while the gc has gotten worse reviews with loss of quality in manufacturing.

iJon

i just checked and i found this
american jeep web site products:
wrangler - liberty - grand cherokee

german jeep website www.jeep.de
same pictures - same stats
wrangler - cherokee - grand cherokee

your jeep liberty is called cherokee over here ...
because of that you know already your result ;)

untill now the two cars which share both the current 35 points rating out of the 37 are
Renault Espace 2003
Toyota Corolla Verso 2004

[Neserk]

having a small penis....



That is the only reason for driving a large vechicle, isn't it? :p

[skunk]

That is the only reason for driving a large vechicle, isn't it? :p
ONE of the reasons...
In addition to that :rolleyes: I find the driving and seating positions much more comfortable, and I sometimes carry a ton in the back. Those are my excuses, anyway. :)

[mactastic]

Wow there sure is a lot of pi$$ing going on in here. Have the PPP been alerted? :p

Seriously, you guys are arguing the wrong points. There are always going to by large vehicles, and there will likely never be a specific test for SUV drivers.

We can make SUVs with stability controls, better gas mileage, and we could even standardize bumper heights. We could pressure insurance companies to charge SUV owners more to compensate for the additional damage they do when they hit others. We can ask for CAFE standards to apply to trucks (it's a crime that it doesn't) in the same way it applies to cars. Registration should be more for heavier vehicles since they do more damage to the road surface. A slow cessation of the subsidies of gas (so the price shock doesn't hit all at once and people have a chance to recover if they've recently bought a large vehicle) would certainly help also. If gas was costly enough only those who truly needed them would drive them.

Oh and BTW people in small cars are just as $hi^^y at driving as those in SUVs. I almost got sideswiped just yesterday by a pair of college students weaving in and out of traffic at high speeds (over 90) in his BMW. When he came into my lane he cut into the space in front of me (which was small to begin with) and slammed on his brakes. Just to get two car lengths ahead. So don't pretend SUV drivers have a monopoly on stupidity.

Dunno, part of the risk of driving a truck or SUV is higher chance of a rollover, but you get better vision around traffic to offset it. Part of the risk of driving a small car is that you can't see around other cars as well, but you have better handling to avoid it.

Of course I come from the land of trucks as well, so I'm probably biased (probably, hell I know I am;) ) Around here trucks and cars are probably close to 50-50 as well. And since I got my new Tacoma, I've gone lots of places I can't get my Civic to go. :D

[IJ Reilly]

Yeah that is pretty much how I feel. I do not understand the SUV hatred. And I have probably heard every argument. But I prefer driving an SUV. I drove a car for 6 months once and I hated every minute of it. I like lumbering along in a big vehicle.

I'm sorry to hear it. I was really hoping you were just being facetious. If you really want to know why so many people have an attitude about SUVs (and the people who drive them), you might try having a conversation in a mirror. If that doesn't work, you might want to ponder the physics at issue here. SUVs were practically designed to be killing machines. Just ask a crash-test dummy.

[Spizzo]

That is the only reason for driving a large vechicle, isn't it? :p

Yep, if i didnt have a small penis, i would be towing my boat down to the lake with my Kia.

[Spizzo]

I'm sorry to hear it. I was really hoping you were just being facetious. If you really want to know why so many people have an attitude about SUVs (and the people who drive them), you might try having a conversation in a mirror. If that doesn't work, you might want to ponder the physics at issue here. SUVs were practically designed to be killing machines. Just ask a crash-test dummy.

I bet every vehicle at (enter motor vehicle company) was sitting there thinking - "Not enough people are dieing on our roads, what can we do to kill more people?" "Hey, what about more SUV's?"

[Neserk]

I find the driving and seating positions much more comfortable, and I sometimes carry a ton in the back. Those are my excuses, anyway. :)

My husband is 6'2" so he feels the same way. But they do make cars now that accomodate the larger frame.

He has a small truck ;) and I have a Honda Civic. I'd prefer a smaller car but I wanted 4 doors.

[IJ Reilly]

But is it a failure in the SUV design or a failure in the car's design? My friend drives a new Volkswagen Beetle. He was hit (by a car) at 30 MPH on his driver's door. He was able to open his driver's door and get out. His car was thrown a good distance down the road, but he was ok. I wonder how he would have made out if he was in another car without side reinforcement bars?

It's the fault of SUV design. The article you cite doesn't mention the real problem, which is that SUV and truck bumpers don't have to meet the same standards of safety as cars. They ride up over side impact zones of cars, negating the effect of reinforcement and airbags.

[IJ Reilly]

I bet every vehicle at (enter motor vehicle company) was sitting there thinking - "Not enough people are dieing on our roads, what can we do to kill more people?" "Hey, what about more SUV's?"

No need to make such ludicrous statements. The automobile manufacturers are perfectly happy to build popular vehicles which are exempt from safety standards because it saves them money. Simply stated, they won't care about these issues unless they are forced to care.

[Voltron]

But is it a failure in the SUV design or a failure in the car's design? My friend drives a new Volkswagen Beetle. He was hit (by a car) at 30 MPH on his driver's door. He was able to open his driver's door and get out. His car was thrown a good distance down the road, but he was ok. I wonder how he would have made out if he was in another car without side reinforcement bars?

BTW, Here is the link to an article with another angle on that picture.
Link (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/US/Side_crash_test_040419-1.html)

Quotes from the ABC article from that test.....
In the test the vehicles where hit with a 3300 pound barrier not an SUV. An SUV like a truck will drive up and over a vehicle thus crushing the roof. Side air bags won't protect us from that.

Trucks are a necessary evil due to the fact our economy would completly halt if we didn't have them. Can't say the same about SUV's. There are other alternatives that those who are required to use SUV's to use. Too many housewives are driving these vehicles.

Although they should not outlaw them. They should define them as trucks not cars and require a truck CDL drivers permit at minimum. Perhaps change the deffinition between a car and a truck to be based on weight that way light weight jeeps and pick up trucks won't be required to be under the truck deffinition.

[Neserk]

Too many housewives are driving these vehicles.


Very true. And not to pick on women but as we tend to be smaller we also tend to have more difficulty with seeing when driving larger vehicles. About 10-12 years ago men were the larger number causing fatal accidents. It would be interesting to see if that has changed with the popularity of SUV's.


They should define them as trucks not cars and require a truck CDL drivers permit at minimum. Perhaps change the deffinition between a car and a truck to be based on weight that way light weight jeeps and pick up trucks won't be required to be under the truck deffinition.

Very good idea. If someone is going to drive that large and dangerous of a vehicle they should have to prove they can drive it safely!

[Desertrat]

IJ, the problem with the bumpers is that if you make them lower for the benefit of small cars, they're too close to the ground for farmers, ranchers, and true "off-roaders".

http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=11&x=1592&y=8119&z=13&w=1 shows my home territory. If I've graded the roads, you can get to my house in a Cadillac. If not, serious 4WD and serious tires are needed, particularly during our summer rainy season.

FWIW, my '85 Toy 4WD PU if stock can't cross the creek if the water's over the headlights. With the air intake above the carb instead of by the left headlight, I've done it. :) (There's a modicum of excitement for first-time passengers.)

'Rat

My no-economy pet, for those showing pictures...

[Desertrat]

[iJon]

IJ, the problem with the bumpers is that if you make them lower for the benefit of small cars, they're too close to the ground for farmers, ranchers, and true "off-roaders".
ah good point. i know if our suburban and jeeps were lower they would be worthless without the ground clearance they have now, really never thought of that.

i guess all we can really do is accept that suv's are here, some people buy them for a purpose, some people buy them as an everday commute car. they can be dangerous if involved with an accident with a smaller car, but its just the facts of life. it all comes to the driver in reality, and when we drive we have to risk that something may happen. may not be good or whatever, but its the reality.

iJon

[IJ Reilly]

IJ, the problem with the bumpers is that if you make them lower for the benefit of small cars, they're too close to the ground for farmers, ranchers, and true "off-roaders".

Then let them keep these vehicles, so long as they keep them off the roads.

[iJon]

Then let them keep these vehicles, so long as they keep them off the roads.
so now they have to spend another chunk of money on a "on-road" car because you say so, even though their suv can do the job perfectly fine.

iJon

[IJ Reilly]

so now they have to spend another chunk of money on a "on-road" car because you say so, even though their suv can do the job perfectly fine.

Let's get real here. At least 90% of the SUVs purchased in the United States never leave the pavement. They are not off-road vehicles by any reasonable definition. The vast majority are bought to be used as cars, but they evade the basic safety standards required of every other vehicle that uses the public roadways simply because they are arbitrarily classified as trucks.

[Desertrat]

IJ, I know it's cruel of me to demand thought :D:D:D but have you considered what workmen drive to repair your plumbing or do some roofing work on your house, or mow your yard? A rancher can't come to town without having a "town car"? Can't pull a trailer-load of calves? A farmer can't go to the seed & feed store for a pickup load of seed or fertilizer, or pull a trailer? Or drive to town to buy groceries without laying out another $20,000 just to please some townie?

From the front wheels forward (windshield?), there's no difference between a full-size pickup and the larger SUVs.

I hate to sound fractious, but I do get a bit tired of folks acting as though only city-dwellers exist and have any sort of rights and needs.

'Rat

[sethypoo]

What is this "hell" you talk about? :p

(cough) We're talking about the hell that dope fiends go to. (cough)

[dopefiend]

(cough) We're talking about the hell that dope fiends go to. (cough)

I don't get it.

[sethypoo]

I can only hope that in the next 5-7 years more companies jump on the bandwagon that Ford and Lexus have started and begin manufacturing only hybrid SUV's and trucks.

[zimv20]

http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=11&x=1592&y=8119&z=13&w=1 shows my home territory. If I've graded the roads, you can get to my house in a Cadillac. If not, serious 4WD and serious tires are needed, particularly during our summer rainy season.
cool!

here's mine: link (http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?t=4&s=9&x=4434&y=46451&z=16&w=1)

you'll see there's no need for offroading here.

even better: link (http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?t=4&s=8&x=8869&y=92904&z=16&w=1)

red roof on both house and garage. stop by. i have snacks.

[IJ Reilly]

IJ, I know it's cruel of me to demand thought :D:D:D but have you considered what workmen drive to repair your plumbing or do some roofing work on your house, or mow your yard? A rancher can't come to town without having a "town car"? Can't pull a trailer-load of calves? A farmer can't go to the seed & feed store for a pickup load of seed or fertilizer, or pull a trailer? Or drive to town to buy groceries without laying out another $20,000 just to please some townie?

You can drive a tractor on the road too, but you can't use it for trips to the supermarket. With 50% of the vehicles on the road now classified as "trucks," and maybe 2% of those actually being used as such, an application of thought demands creating a more sensible set of rules to protect the safety of the other half of drivers from becoming victims.

I guess we can talk civilly about politics and religion, but if you really want to see people get racked out of shape, try talking about cars...

[dopefiend]

. With 50% of the vehicles on the road now classified as "trucks," and maybe 2% of those actually being used as such, an application of thought demands creating a more sensible set of rules to protect the safety of the other half of drivers from becoming victims.


OK, Im suprized no one has said anything, but where are you pulling these numbers out of? ;)

[IJ Reilly]

OK, Im suprized no one has said anything, but where are you pulling these numbers out of? ;)

You're welcomed to check my work, but last I heard, about half of all automobile sales were SUVs and trucks. As for how many of these are actually being used as off-road vehicles, I invite you to spent some time in your local shopping mall parking lot.

[dopefiend]

As for how many of these are actually being used as off-road vehicles, I invite you to spent some time in your local shopping mall parking lot.

And because they are at the shopping mall, that means they don't go off-road or something?

[IJ Reilly]

And because they are at the shopping mall, that means they don't go off-road or something?

Some things are pretty obvious, or so I would have thought. But if they aren't, I'd suggest looking up the figures, which I've seen but not recently. The proportion of SUVs, 4WDs and trucks that actually ever leave the pavement, let along frequently, is miniscule -- in the single digits, IIRC. (Who can pretend for even a moment that anyone who drops $40k for an Escalade or a Navigator is going to use it for open-field driving? Come on, can't we get real for even a minute here?)

[sethypoo]

Some things are pretty obvious, or so I would have thought. But if they aren't, I'd suggest looking up the figures, which I've seen but not recently. The proportion of SUVs, 4WDs and trucks that actually ever leave the pavement, let along frequently, is miniscule -- in the single digits, IIRC. (Who can pretend for even a moment that anyone who drops $40k for an Escalade or a Navigator is going to use it for open-field driving? Come on, can't we get real for even a minute here?)

You're right, if I want to go off-roading, I would buy a Jeep. If I wanted to flaunt my income and make people think I am rich and therefore somehow worth something, I'd buy a Navigator or and Escalade. :rolleyes: :)

[skunk]

You're right, if I want to go off-roading, I would buy a Jeep.
You could always get a mule...
;)

[sethypoo]

You could always get a mule...
;)

Now that's actually a very good idea. No gas to buy, other than some feed and water. And no gas=no emissions. There's no insurance needed, and you can't get pulled over for speeding.

Hmm.....

[skunk]

Now that's actually a very good idea. No gas to buy, other than some feed and water. And no gas=no emissions. There's no insurance needed, and you can't get pulled over for speeding.

Hmm.....
I'm not so sure about the no emissions bit... :eek:

[Sun Baked]

I'm not so sure about the no emissions bit... :eek:At least upgrade to a horse, but you will probably need a running start to check under the hood (http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12420&stc=1). :p

And they do have that habit of leaking coolant, attracting flies, and dropping processed fuel onto the road.

[sethypoo]

At least upgrade to a horse, but you will probably need a running start to check under the hood (http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12420&stc=1). :p

And they do have that habit of leaking coolant, attracting flies, and dropping processed fuel onto the road.

But it is all biodegradable! ;)

[Desertrat]

I imagine IJ's correct about the percentages. And remember, a lot of the SUVs out there are 2WD, not 4WD.

In 1986, I was griping at a Toyota salesman about the front-end design change, from a solid front axle to a double-wishbone setup. Yeah, more streetable, but not as strong for back-country hard times. He laughed and pointed out that I was in the 20% of the market who actually went off road.

I'd bet as many pickups don't get used for hauling, as there are SUVs which don't get used as utility vehicles.

Back around 1970 I picked up a Hippie kid who was hitchhiking. We got to jawing, and among other things he commented that we'd save a lot of fuel if we went back to farming with horses and mules.

I pointed out that his idea would mean halving the amount of land to be available for food production...

'Rat

[pseudobrit]

A rancher can't come to town without having a "town car"? Can't pull a trailer-load of calves? A farmer can't go to the seed & feed store for a pickup load of seed or fertilizer, or pull a trailer? Or drive to town to buy groceries without laying out another $20,000 just to please some townie?

I see these around my neck of the woods all the time:

I wonder why, after spending tens of thousands and more on these FUVs (farm utility vehicles of course) we'd make them lay out another $20,000 just to please the townies.

I have driven behind manure spreaders. They leak when stopping, accelerating and turning. Would you argue that they should be allowed to traverse the streets as a commuter vehicle?

[iJon]

I see these around my neck of the woods all the time:

I wonder why, after spending tens of thousands and more on these FUVs (farm utility vehicles of course) we'd make them lay out another $20,000 just to please the townies.

I have driven behind manure spreaders. They leak when stopping, accelerating and turning. Would you argue that they should be allowed to traverse the streets as a commuter vehicle?
thats getting a little extreme dont you think.

iJon

[pseudobrit]

thats getting a little extreme dont you think.

iJon

Yes, but nevertheless a logical extension of the argument: that one should be able to drive a vehicle that is unsafe to other cars simply because there is a necessity for such a vehicle on private property.

[iJon]

Yes, but nevertheless a logical extension of the argument: that one should be able to drive a vehicle that is unsafe to other cars simply because there is a necessity for such a vehicle on private property.
but thats not always the case. off road is a clasification. just becuase someones suv doest go offroad,, doenst mean he doesnt pull a boat, trailer, camper or whatever.

iJon

[pseudobrit]

but thats not always the case. off road is a clasification. just becuase someones suv doest go offroad,, doenst mean he doesnt pull a boat, trailer, camper or whatever.

iJon

Do you need car-destroying bumper height to pull a trailer?

[iJon]

Do you need car-destroying bumper height to pull a trailer?
let me gues, a golf will do it just fine?

iJon

[dopefiend]

let me gues, a golf will do it just fine?

iJon

ok, that made my night.

Thank you. :cool:

[Abstract]

@iJon: Using an SUV off-road once a year doesn't justify buying an SUV. A Liberty is okay in my books because its not absolutely ridiculous like a Suburban, Expedition, or H2, but really, if someone goes off-roading once a year, they should stop being macho poseurs and do something they actually like doing, maybe something they do more than once a year.

If you need the space, get a minivan.

Dopefiend makes me laugh. :p

[iJon]

@iJon: Using an SUV off-road once a year doesn't justify buying an SUV. A Liberty is okay in my books because its not absolutely ridiculous like a Suburban, Expedition, or H2, but really, if someone goes off-roading once a year, they should stop being macho poseurs and do something they actually like doing, maybe something they do more than once a year.

If you need the space, get a minivan.

Dopefiend makes me laugh. :p
i suppose. my opinion is torn both ways, cause like i said earlier we have a suburban but only used when needed, which lately its been at least once a week. but on the other hand personally i feel as long as that vehicle you bought serves its purpose at least once in a while (even it if thats one big camping trip or off road journey that happens once a year) its served its purpose, because without it you couldn't have done any of those things. stupid reason...quite possibly but i really dont care. after reading this thread and seeing all the complaints, i feel mine as well as my familys usuage for our suv's is justified :)

iJon

[Desertrat]

Well, we've wandered through the tulips on this thread! :)

Face it: The SUV "problem" is that they're bought by folks who don't need the full capabilities. They're foolish investments if all you're gonna do is commute solo to work or just make the run to the grocery. IMO, a waste of steel, rubber, gas and money.

Having some El Gigantico which is mostly parked except when actually needed, and doing one's daily "stuff" in some sort of econobox, makes sense to me from the standpoint of a wise use of resources. If you can afford it, do it.

'Rat

[sushi]

Umm...People that have enough stuff to carry around on a daily basis to necessitate owning an SUV?
How do you define "enough stuff"?

I know some folk who would say a bag of groceries would be enough. Others would say a vehicle full of people.

IMHO, it should be left to the owner to decide. Afterall, they are paying for the vehicle in the first place.

Sushi

[sushi]

but i'm not sure the "one big trip a year" is adequate if it's your only car...
We live in a free society.

What gives the right of one person to dictate what another will own?

If a person can afford a SUV and it's expensive operating costs, more power to them.

Next thing you know, we will hear folks saying that the cost of a Mac is not justified when a PC will do the same thing but for cheaper costs. Now wouldn't that be nice! :eek:

Sushi

[skunk]

We live in a free society.

What gives the right of one person to dictate what another will own?

If a person can afford a SUV and it's expensive operating costs, more power to them.Sushi
Fine as long as the costs are not subsidized by tax breaks.

[Neserk]

What gives the right of one person to dictate what another will own?

Sushi

Many things. You can't own child porn. You can't own certain kinds of weapons. You can't own people. You shouldn't be able to own a vehicle you are unable to safely drive and one that destroys the environment, either.

[sushi]

Generic term for 4x4s used by mums in Chelsea (posh area of London) to ferry their brats to school. Used by me, on the other hand, for towing, long-distance European travel, off-roading and carrying tools and equipment. And of course, going to the opera. Not. :)
Thanks for the info.

And I wouldn't be seen dead in a Lexus....
???

Sushi

[skunk]

Many things. You can't own child porn. You can't own certain kinds of weapons. You can't own people. You shouldn't be able to own a vehicle you are unable to safely drive and one that destroys the environment, either.
Excuse me, but where does the inability to drive come into the question?

[skunk]

???

Sushi
I'm a Range Rover man myself. I'm on my third. :cool:

[sushi]

I'm not so sure about the no emissions bit... :eek:
I thought emissions were considered gaseous and not solid waste! :D

Sushi

[skunk]

I thought emissions were considered gaseous and not solid waste! :D

Sushi
Either way... :rolleyes:

[zimv20]

We live in a free society.

What gives the right of one person to dictate what another will own?

If a person can afford a SUV and it's expensive operating costs, more power to them.
i
but is it only that person bearing the cost? what a lot of us are trying to say is that society is bearing part of the cost, through more dangerous accidents, more stressed asphalt, more strain on the oil supply.

concentrating on the third point, i'm lobbying (informally) for the removal of gasoline subsidies so that the true cost of each gallon is passed to the consumer. THEN if someone wants to spend, say, $120 to fill up a 10 mpg vehicle, it's up to them.

much like the material sacrificies american citizens were asked to make in WWII, i think each citizen has a responsibility to society to not waste oil. it is indeed a precious resource that dictates much of the US' foreign policy, which as of late hasn't been very popular w/ the rest of the world.

so while freedom to drive an SUV is something which can be argued, it must be tempered w/ responsibility to everyone else.

[Neserk]

Excuse me, but where does the inability to drive come into the question?

Part of the solution to the SUV problem was making sure that those who owned it were able to actually drive it! IOW, a driving test and special license for driving large vechicles.

[skunk]

Part of the solution to the SUV problem was making sure that those who owned it were able to actually drive it! IOW, a driving test and special license for driving large vechicles.
Mine's no bigger than a big car. Why should I need a special licence? How big ARE these things? :confused:

[Neserk]

Mine's no bigger than a big car. Why should I need a special licence? How big ARE these things? :confused:

HUGE. Some don't even fit in regular parking spots. They have to park at an angle.

http://www.fordvehicles.com/Trucks/

http://www.fordvehicles.com/suvs/

[skunk]

HUGE. Some don't even fit in regular parking spots. They have to park at an angle.

http://www.fordvehicles.com/Trucks/

http://www.fordvehicles.com/suvs/
Well, worst of all, I'd say those were an offence against good taste. Call the style police! :D :eek:

[zimv20]

Mine's no bigger than a big car. Why should I need a special licence? How big ARE these things? :confused:
enjoy these slices of american life:
http://www.gaspig.com/P1290234.jpg

http://www.gaspig.com/suvatpump2.jpg

http://www.gaspig.com/onlyinamericaP1010056.jpg

http://www.gaspig.com/P7080180.jpg

http://www.gaspig.com/P7080210.jpg

[iJon]

lol, you guys would hate my friend. he just a got a 2004 denali (2nd pic) for graduation. he doesnt need all that room, he will use it time to time (already has) but i twill be his everyday car. he got it, and put 22" rims on it and put some tv's inside.

iJon

[pseudobrit]

but is it only that person bearing the cost? what a lot of us are trying to say is that society is bearing part of the cost, through more dangerous accidents, more stressed asphalt, more strain on the oil supply.

concentrating on the third point, i'm lobbying (informally) for the removal of gasoline subsidies so that the true cost of each gallon is passed to the consumer. THEN if someone wants to spend, say, $120 to fill up a 10 mpg vehicle, it's up to them.

Aside from the gas, the federal regulations effectively encourage car manufacturers to market SUVs more.

SUVs are not held to the same CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) standards as cars. SUVs do not require the same safety features, such as crumple zones, many cars do.

SUVs therefore pull in a bigger profit margin than any other class of vehicle.

Coupled with the subsidised gasoline they swill, the government is effectively twisting the market.

[takao]

haha wouldn't those american streets be so broad ...the cars would be in serious problems

[pseudobrit]

lol, you guys would hate my friend. he just a got a 2004 denali (2nd pic) for graduation. he doesnt need all that room, he will use it time to time (already has) but i twill be his everyday car. he got it, and put 22" rims on it and put some tv's inside.

I don't hate people with bad taste. I just think they have bad taste.

[zimv20]

haha wouldn't those american streets be so broad ...the cars would be in serious problems
they're not _all_ wide. at least once a week i see some big SUV unable to make a 90 degree right hand turn w/o either
1) having to go in reverse at some point
2) requiring traffic on the other street to move out of his way

last night, a woman in a big 4-door GMC Jimmy decided to pull a u-turn on belmont to grab a parking spot. i was stuck behind her for over a minute. belmont is wide enough that i can make a u-turn (in my VW) w/o having to go in reverse at all.

[IJ Reilly]

I'm a Range Rover man myself. I'm on my third. :cool:

I how many years? :D

Well I should talk. I've owned a few British cars, and I drive one now.

[Sun Baked]

American's need some BIG cars, because they'll eventually grow into them and need to buy a bigger one.

Sort of like those BIG pants never stay big for long. ;)

[skunk]

I how many years? :D
Sixteen. All second-hand. First two were petrol, this one's a BMW turbocharged intercooled diesel. Probably TMI. :rolleyes:
Well I should talk. I've owned a few British cars, and I drive one now.
What kind?

[blue&whiteman]

those pics make me just sit in amazement of how truly consuming so many people are.

[IJ Reilly]

What kind?

Back in the day, it was an MG. Now it's a MINI Cooper. I have an idea the MINI will be a lot more reliable.

[skunk]

Back in the day, it was an MG. Now it's a MINI Cooper. I have an idea the MINI will be a lot more reliable.
So we BOTH have BMWs! :D

[Abstract]

lol, you guys would hate my friend. he just a got a 2004 denali (2nd pic) for graduation. he doesnt need all that room, he will use it time to time (already has) but i twill be his everyday car. he got it, and put 22" rims on it and put some tv's inside.

iJon

Yep, we hate your friend. :p

[IJ Reilly]

So we BOTH have BMWs! :D

Is is not a BMW... it's a MINI! :p

Funny, I see people inspecting the car as I drive by, and sometimes I can see their lips mouth B...M...W...

I've resisted the urge to pull over. So far.

[skunk]

Is is not a BMW... it's a MINI! :p

Funny, I see people inspecting the car as I drive by, and sometimes I can see their lips mouth B...M...W...

I've resisted the urge to pull over. So far.
Both cars made by BMW, I think you'll find. They still own the Mini, and sold LandRover to Ford not too long ago.

[Sun Baked]

Is is not a BMW... it's a MINI! :p

Funny, I see people inspecting the car as I drive by, and sometimes I can see their lips mouth B...M...W...

I've resisted the urge to pull over. So far.When the mini is using the 1.6L Neon engine, I can't help thinking N.... e.... o.... n....
And that legendary Neon reliability. http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6694&stc=1

[Desertrat]

[IJ Reilly]

Both cars made by BMW, I think you'll find. They still own the Mini, and sold LandRover to Ford not too long ago.

MINI is a wholly-owned subsidiary of BMW, so I suppose if the MINI is a BMW, then a Land Rover is a Ford (just an over-grown Cortina, don't you know?).

[IJ Reilly]

When the mini is using the 1.6L Neon engine, I can't help thinking N.... e.... o.... n....
And that legendary Neon reliability.

It isn't. The Tritec engine is only used in the Neon outside of the US.

[IIvan]

I think that the attitude of many people driving these things...who never go offroad... quoting from this months National Geographic (picture of a hummer) " I know its not fuel efficient, but anything I bump into I win" she drives it only for business, the captiuon goes on to state

crazy

[skunk]

MINI is a wholly-owned subsidiary of BMW, so I suppose if the MINI is a BMW, then a Land Rover is a Ford (just an over-grown Cortina, don't you know?).
That's fighting talk! :mad:

(Mine was built during BMW's ownership, anyway) :cool:

[Desertrat]

:) I've been inside a couple of BMW motors; a 1600 and a 2002. No ridge-reaming needed at 100,000 miles. Same for Toyota's 22R.

No flies on cross-flow-head Cortina motors, either. Go to Webers, a real cam and steel main caps and they'll crank out some really good numbers.

'Rat

[IJ Reilly]

That's fighting talk! :mad:

(Mine was built during BMW's ownership, anyway) :cool:

You come over here and say that!

All of these cars are mutts now anyway. As I expect you know, the new MINI design was partially completed when BMW bought Rover Group. The final thing is as much German as it is British, or even Brazilian, if you like.

[Desertrat]

I used to laugh when folks talked about cars, saying, "Buy American!" My response, even forty years ago, was, "How?" (Door handles and such, and some trim, came from GM's Holden works in Canada.)

Ford Exploder motors come from Germany, and the transmissions from France. Some Buick V6 engines come from SE Asia. Ford wiring harnesses from Brazil. Air-cooled VW parts from Brazil and Mexico. Weber carbs from Brazil.

That's just "off the cuff" knowledge; I've not really tried to track who builds what for whom.

Probably the only sole-country car was the Yugo.

:), 'Rat

[Spizzo]

I used to laugh when folks talked about cars, saying, "Buy American!"


I buy American knowing that not all of the car was made in america, but that it was Union made. Although there are not too many cars that i would buy that were "american made". I feel that foreign auto makers make a better quality vehicle. But when it comes to a full size SUV, no one can build em like America.

So what does everyone think, 20's or 22's for my Tahoe? :D

[skunk]

But when it comes to a full size SUV, no one can build em like America.
Nobody wants to. :rolleyes:

[Desertrat]

You're right, skunk, so long as you ignore Mercedes, Porsche, Rover, Honda, Nissan and Toyota...

Did I forget anybody?

Spizzo, I've been "bending wrenches" since 1950. Back then, you were lucky if you got 40K miles between valve jobs; at 70K or so you could figure rings and bearings.

Now? I bought a '95 GMC full-size PU with 120K on the odometer. At 160K I felt some bearing vibration in the auto trans and upgraded to a 2000 same-o/same-o with 50K on it. Given my maintenance penchant, I figure on another 100K.

Now, I like my '85 Toy. I have some 280K on it. Probably 30K to 40K in 4WD in some of North America's meanest country for rough and rocky. It's easy to maintain, but I've replaced brakes, starters, generator, radiator, cylinder head (erosion of the alloy), fuel pumps and done a couple of overhauls for rings and bearings. Still, the total/total/total cost for all imaginable items (ignoring my labor) runs about 13 cents per mile. I'll keep it, but I don't pull trailers and no longer make long cross-country runs. (The Old Age & Comfort thing. :) )

But I'll still take a small-block Chevy V8 against anybody else's motor, anytime, anywhere. (I wanna stick one in about a '92 or so Toyota Supra, with a six-speed. I like superfast econocars. Life begins at 180, and running legal at 30+ mpg is okay by me.)

'Rat

[Neserk]

"Buy American!"


Before I start, I'm quoting Desertrat completely out of context.

My dad worked for Ford during my elementary school years. My best friend's parents (who were Democrats, my parents were psedo-Repbulicans) worked for Chrysler. So I heard a lot of the "buy American." (Yes, I grew up in the Detroit area).

However, my parents' cars/vans were constantly breaking down. It wasn't until they bought a used Audi we had a fairly reliable car. (This was after my father was laid off and we moved further north). The justification was the Audi was used.

When I went to college, my college sweetheart introduced me to Hondas. I no longer have the sweetheart but I still drive Hondas. I say: buy the car that is going to last with the least amount of expense after you drive it off the lot.

My last Honda had almost 200,000 miles on it and I gave it to a friend when I moved to California. My current Honda only has 50,000 miles on it, is four years old. I have replaced 2 tires, the battery (last week), and the wind shield wipers. The CA sun eats the rubber for dinner on the wipers.

My next care will probably replace my husband's truck. Or if gas prices remain the same we will purchase a hybrid.

[Spizzo]

I used to have a 87 Toyota Land Cruiser - and honestly i loved the thing. But the L.C's now days arent the same. I still wish i had the thing. It too has seen some of the roughest/toughest in N.A. Mojave, Sierra Nevada's, etc....
And as I said before, if i were to buy a car, it would be an Audi S4 - for tha speed.

[skunk]

You're right, skunk, so long as you ignore Mercedes, Porsche, Rover, Honda, Nissan and Toyota...

Did I forget anybody?
'Rat
I did not think these qualified: from what I gather, the SUVs we're talking about are built on a truck chassis and are an order of magnitude bigger than the ones you mention, with the exception of the biggest Toyotas.

[Desertrat]

Neserk, there's no doubt that quality of US cars was low in the 1970s. What's interesting to me is that after the warranty period, repair costs on American cars were lower than for foreign cars. (One of those national survey deals the car mags cite) Used car buyers do better with Big Iron, which is why so many poor folks drive them as 3rd or 4th owners.

Oh: The "innards" of a Honda motor are darned near like unto a quality watch. I bought one cheap from a twit who hadn't learned about checking the oil. Once rebuilt, it was a sweetie. :)

skunk, if you leave out the stuff I mentioned, then "Bad SUVs" are a miniscule percentage of the total auto population. Symbolic, but irrelevant.

FWIW, I have a friend whose Expedition gets 21 mpg on the Interstate. My full size work truck gets 18.

Stelliform, run, do not walk to one of these Quik-Lube joints and get the transmission fluid completely changed. The deal where they flush it while the motor's running. If you do this every 50K miles, it will live quite happily. Otherwise, at around 100K it falls on the pavement. :)

'Rat

[mactastic]

Isn't Honda the only major consumer automaker who still designs and builds their own engines?

My '81 Civic recently died at just under 200,000 miles. Poor thing. It couldn't handle Cuesta Grade on a daily basis anymore and just gave up one day. Having been outside near the coast all it's life, the body was rusting, the interior was coming apart but the thing just kept on going. I was sad to see that car go.

Also I have a '98 Civic (fun car to drive) with around 130,000 miles on it. No major problems yet, knock on wood, just regular maintainance. Honda sure knows how to make a good car. I've never felt another car in that price range that feels as solid when you close the door.

[takao]

Isn't Honda the only major consumer automaker who still designs and builds their own engines?

i have no idea but i wouldn't surprised if they wouldn't design them... look at BMW, VW , mercedes ..the only thing they are doing is designing the car,electronics and putting the parts together...
for BMW the whole engine and suspension is made in austria by steyr-puch (who make everything from tractors to tanks), transmission parts are made in austria,chez republic and switzerland, chassis made by peugeot in france (most modern chassis factory in europe) and other parts are made in poland,italy,spain,... and they get shipped in slovenia
and same for VW etc...they make their whole cars at the Skoda factories in the chez republic or at SEAT factories in spain...

i guess only a few car makers are designing their own engines.. porsche,ferrari, lamborghini (aren't they a tractor comapny too ?) and the other usual suspects

[Voltron]

Isn't Honda the only major consumer automaker who still designs and builds their own engines?

My '81 Civic recently died at just under 200,000 miles. Poor thing. It couldn't handle Cuesta Grade on a daily basis anymore and just gave up one day. Having been outside near the coast all it's life, the body was rusting, the interior was coming apart but the thing just kept on going. I was sad to see that car go.

Also I have a '98 Civic (fun car to drive) with around 130,000 miles on it. No major problems yet, knock on wood, just regular maintainance. Honda sure knows how to make a good car. I've never felt another car in that price range that feels as solid when you close the door.
I'm approaching 400k on my 91 Honda civic. Bought it with 152k on it didn't change the timing belt soon enough and had to pay thru the nose on rods but otherwise its the cheapest running car I've ever owned.

[Sun Baked]

Isn't Honda the only major consumer automaker who still designs and builds their own engines?Sort of, maybe not.

When they were losing a large chunk of business to the european diesel fleets, they quickly moved to put another company's diesel engine in their vehicles until they could design and build their own.

At least I think it was Honda.

[Neserk]

Neserk, there's no doubt that quality of US cars was low in the 1970s. What's interesting to me is that after the warranty period, repair costs on American cars were lower than for foreign cars. (One of those national survey deals the car mags cite) Used car buyers do better with Big Iron, which is why so many poor folks drive them as 3rd or 4th owners.

Oh: The "innards" of a Honda motor are darned near like unto a quality watch. I bought one cheap from a twit who hadn't learned about checking the oil. Once rebuilt, it was a sweetie. :)



Interesting. My "foreign" cars haven't needed much repair. The scheduled mainteance on a Honda is ridiculous. I read it and said: if I was going to do that I wouldn't bother buying a Honda. :rolleyes: It is mostly oil changes and new tires.

Speaking of oil changes. What is the current theory on how frequently one should change oil? I used to drive a ton so I changed every 7,000 miles. Now I don't. Do I still stick with every 7,000 miles or do I do it based on a monthly schedule? (While I have your attention :D)

[Neserk]

I'm approaching 400k on my 91 Honda civic. .

:eek: That is awesome. My 92 went to 190,000 before I gave it away. It was a hatchback. Cost about $8,000 brand new. Didn't even come with a radio! I got 48 mph in that thing. It didn't have air which was okay most of the time, would have never made it in CA, though.

[mactastic]

I change my Honda's oil every 3K miles (or thereabouts when I have the time) but that's with regular oil. I'm considering using synthetic in my truck, which is more expensive but can go longer between changes. I'll probably try to keep a rotate-tires-and-new-oil every 5K miles with synthetic.

[blackfox]

You know, I have been a fan of the little euro (and occasionally asian) 4-cylinders...and also a fan of recyling automobiles(although my tax bracket also comes into play). My last 5 cars - 1976 Volvo wagon (234K), 1980 Volvo (299K), 1985 VW Jetta (312K), 1986 Izuzu I-mark (276K) and 1982 Saab (236K) - have all lasted above 200K, and with the exception of the '80 Volvo, still ran well when I repaced them (I currently drive the 76 Volvo)...in addition, they all required little to no expensive maintenance (water pumps, belts, alternators is all...) and maintained gas mileage w/in the 24-35mpg range, even at their age. The added fact that they contain little to no expensive electronic systems, and are built in such a way that individual body pieces can be easily replaced (no molded bodies)...I find them to be a great deal...IMO, Volvo and Saab build the best cars for longevity, although Mercedes and BMW are also probably up there (but w/ a larger cost of ownership/upkeep)...I gottal love those Swedes...

[Desertrat]

I ran Castrol GTX the last two years of my sports car racing, in 1977/78. I figure any oil that held viscosity in Texas summers and a 30-minute sprint race had to be plenty good on the street. In post-race teardowns, the bearings always looked good.

I do my own oil changes, and buy in bulk at Sam's or WallyWorld. So, since oil is pretty cheap, I've used a 3,000- to 3,500-mile interval. 20-50 in summer on an older engine; 10-40 on newer ones. 10-30 or 10-40 in winter, although I've not really seen any difference.

My joke about driving conditions in Terlingua: Take a steel box. Weld all the edges sealed, sealed, sealed. A month later, cut it open. You'll find dust.

In my "new" '00 GMC, I'm running the Castrol semi-synthetic. Roughly the same interval.

'Rat

[IJ Reilly]

Are we really seriously talking about motor oil?

Sorry, I gotta laugh. If we were having this chat over in the Community forum, we'd all be getting posting credits!

[sethypoo]

Here's an off-topic question:

My mom wants to buy a hybrid, but has been holding off on purchasing it because her mechanic (whom she has known forever) told her that the electric motor in hybrid cars emits an extremely high pitched whine that drives dogs insane (not literally). Since we have 3 dogs (a husky, a chow-mutt mix, and a pomerenean), she is concerned that our dogs will suffer from this whine, should they every ride with us (which they do often). Does anyone know if this is true?

[Spizzo]

Are we really seriously talking about motor oil?

Sorry, I gotta laugh. If we were having this chat over in the Community forum, we'd all be getting posting credits!

SUV's are bad cause they take 2-4 quarts more oil than cars!!!
:rolleyes:

[Desertrat]

Aw, IJ, what's a wee tiny bit of thread drift among friends?

sethypoo, why doesn't your mom take the dog for a test ride?

Spizzo, got examples? I've only changed oil on the Exploder; it's the usual five quarts. Sure, there are larger pans; my dumptruck holds ten quarts...

:), 'Rat

[sethypoo]

sethypoo, why doesn't your mom take the dog for a test ride?

As said in my post, she doesn't want to drive them insane if she doesn't have to. I just wanted to see if you guys knew anything about this high pitched whine.

As in: websites.

[Spizzo]

Spizzo, got examples? I've only changed oil on the Exploder; it's the usual five quarts. Sure, there are larger pans; my dumptruck holds ten quarts...

:), 'Rat

Being a little sarcastic, my Tahoe takes 6 quarts. I could just see that as the next anti-SUV arugment poppin up.

[jelloshotsrule]

As said in my post, she doesn't want to drive them insane if she doesn't have to. I just wanted to see if you guys knew anything about this high pitched whine.

As in: websites.

we have a prius. and a dog. i haven't noticed any problems

i can try to test it out tonight if you want... i don't mind driving my dog insane. hah

[DakotaGuy]

I have a 2002 Explorer Eddie Bauer V8 4x4 at home and I LOVE that thing. It's powerful, roomy, comfortable, and looks stocky. Does it get good mileage? Heck No, but I have to pay for the gas, so why would anybody else care? They are not paying the fuel bills for the thing. I am over in Iraq right now so it is sitting in my parents garage with a car cover over it. When I drive it, I follow all the same traffic rules other people do and I obey the speed limits. Oh and on this Iraq War, it really sucks over here, it is 114 degrees outside right now.

[Desertrat]

Best luck to ya, Abercrombieboy. It was 114 in Terlingua, last Wednesday. We've had some cooldown, though, and it's only running about 105-108, now.

"But it's a dry heat."

'Rat

[zimv20]

Explorer Eddie Bauer V8 4x4 [...] good mileage? Heck No,[...]They are not paying the fuel bills for the thing. I am over in Iraq[...] it really sucks over here
irony strikes again.

stay safe

[skunk]

irony strikes again.
"Strike while the irony is hot"? :D