Apple Seeds OS X Snow Leopard Build 10A394 to Developers

[*LTD*]

I am pretty positive that Marble is coming in 10.7. The inconsistencies in Snow Leopard's UI are ridiculous (e.g. two type of menus in the dock). By the time 10.7 shows up, I expect it to have a black UI.

That's quite a prediction. :cool:

[Eligos]

Damn, wont install on SL.

Do NOT install iLeopard on SL, it will cause the Finder
to crash (tried it on a vanilla install). I have no idea how he made it work.
If you did indeed install it, did you do a custom install?

Please clarify.

[Master Chief]

Given all the other important things they have on their plate, I think the icon is probably the least of their worries. Quicktime Player as it stands is incredibly basic so I am wondering whether we're going to see another seed that enhances it. They still have another month left up their sleeve for further additions/improvements/etc.
Apple won't replace the current QT icon until they are confident with all changes (sort of Apple's way of telling people that they're not done with it) but you won't have to wait long (what's a week or two after all).

[Chris Grande]

I assume you're talking about the 'minimize into app icon' feature?

If so, here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXRr6s4ma4s

At the moment of me making that post the video still hasn't been processed by YouTube, but I'm guessing it'll be ready in a few minutes.

That is a rather nice change, just needs some UI in the dock to show you that there are windows minimized. Maybe half the App icon and show the stack of windows behind it? I bet they are working on that as we speak.

[Master Chief]

That's quite a prediction. :cool:
I don't see Apple thinking past 10.6. Not at the present time. It might be part of 10.6 after all, as a surprise, because Apple is not going to wait that long with going black.

[soldier47uaa]

Anyone know why when I go to update it says an error occurred and that the file does not exist? I download it and it restarts and it says that.


Hey, I'm having the same problem. Did you figure out what it was? Did you fix it?

[dragossh]

Do NOT install iLeopard on SL, it will cause the Finder
to crash (tried it on a vanilla install). I have no idea how he made it work.
If you did indeed install it, did you do a custom install?

Please clarify.

Oh, I thought he was running Leopard, since he asked if I modified my SL install to get iTunes scrollbars. Sorry for causing confusion.

That's quite a prediction. :cool:

Since everything's black, there's only a matter of time until they revamp the UI :)

I don't see Apple thinking past 10.6. Not at the present time. It might be part of 10.6 after all, as a surprise, because Apple is not going to wait that long with going black.

They have been slowly changing the UI of their products over the past 3 years. I don't think they would mind keeping Aqua for 1-2 more years.

[Krafty]

Do NOT install iLeopard on SL, it will cause the Finder
to crash (tried it on a vanilla install). I have no idea how he made it work.
If you did indeed install it, did you do a custom install?

Please clarify.

Yeah, well, I couldn't get it to work and it reverted some of my icons that I had changed in Leopard, but no biggie.

[Master Chief]

They have been slowly changing the UI of their products over the past 3 years. I don't think they would mind keeping Aqua for 1-2 more years.
On a second thought; you might be right. I mean look at Safari, which didn't get the top tabs after all. No regrets here, no, but just to illustrate that they might change their minds with the pre-release, or surprise everyone. Me included.

Let's see: I'm counting four weeks before my vacation starts, then three weeks of fun... to come back for a lot more fun. Yeah, that sounds like fun. I can hardly wait :D

p.s. I can count yes, but there's more which I'm not telling anyone here ;)

[raulrea]

I would use console.app it's more organized.

Thank you!
I opened up console.app after I tried a failed installation again, and found a section that said "file doesn't exist" , pointing a reference to quicktime 7
I while ago I tried organizing my applications folder and moved quicktime player to another folder and that seems to have started the issue

Didn't work to put it back in the apps folder, so I just reinstalled Snow Leopard 10A380 on top if it and that fixed everything!

Update worked like a charm afterwards

[Slightly Hyphy]

moved to different forum.

[auhlixer]

What do you mean? All of CS4 works excellent for me - Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Premiere, etc...


I get this when i start any CS4 app http://forums.adobe.com/thread/448438?tstart=0 <--- is not me but have the same problem.


and i have reinstalled it and still does it.

I did a clean SL install when i put it on.

[Krafty]

CandyBar doesn't work, either. Looks like no early customization. Ah well.

[Thex1138]

So will the Snow Leopard release coincide with the Macbook Tablet :D

[Ti_Poussin]

Dictionary, nope, still the standard set as in 10.5.

iChat, still no support for anything else.

Python is at 2.6.1

Blu-Ray, can't say as I don't have a BR reader/burner available.

This is disappointing to said the least, except for Python!

[Jamo12]

I don't see Apple thinking past 10.6. Not at the present time. It might be part of 10.6 after all, as a surprise, because Apple is not going to wait that long with going black.

You don't see Apple looking 1 or 2 years in the future? You have got to be joking. Take the switch from Power PC to Intel for example. That was a good couple of years after OSX came out. I think that the UI will change to a darker, less hyper color scheme (not necessarily black though) just like they got rid of white plastic (excluding the macbook and mac mini).

[AidenShaw]

....just like they got rid of white plastic (excluding the macbook and mac mini).

I can't believe that they stuck with tacky white plastic for so many years - and still ship tacky white plastic cords and power bricks and accessories.

That thing about Jobs saying that Microsoft has no style, laughable when you look at all the tacky white plastic that Apple still ships.

[Sehnsucht]

I can't believe that they stuck with tacky white plastic for so many years - and still ship tacky white plastic cords and power bricks and accessories.

That thing about Jobs saying that Microsoft has no style, laughable when you look at all the tacky white plastic that Apple still ships.

That's a matter of opinion, as I happen to think the white looks much better than black.

[AidenShaw]

That's a matter of opinion, as I happen to think the white looks much better than black.

de gustibus non est disputandum...

[Sehnsucht]

de gustibus non est disputandum...

Memento mori. ;)

[techfreak85]

Memento mori. ;)

de profundus.

[AidenShaw]

de profundus.

de pompomundus ... ;)

[Sehnsucht]

de pompomundus ... ;)

Offus topicus. :D

I actually paid attention in my Latin class, and it pays off sometimes. :cool:

[AidenShaw]

Offus topicus. :D

I actually paid attention in my Latin class, and it pays off sometimes. :cool:

Yes, you never know when a bus full of Romansch tourists will hit the local Wall-Mart.... ;)

[retroneo]

I've been able to use my epson scanner (linked to my iMac) and access it through my macbook pro !

Snow leopard will definitely the worth !!!

This is part of Leopard too. You share scanners from the Image Capture application.

[Sehnsucht]

Yes, you never know when a bus full of Romansch tourists will hit the local Wall-Mart.... ;)

Yes, because usually it's these guys:

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr214/TheDavidFrom1988/rednecks.jpg

driving one of these:

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr214/TheDavidFrom1988/truck_redneck_0062.jpg

who are coming in to buy one of these:

http://www.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/dell_vostro_a90_1.jpg

;)

[theBigD23]

Has anyone "fixed" the issue with double clicking the title bar to minimize? This would be a HUGE loss for me. I use it all the time.

[ayeying]

Has anyone "fixed" the issue with double clicking the title bar to minimize? This would be a HUGE loss for me. I use it all the time.

The options in the system preferences. I have it enabled.

[logotype]

Cursor sometimes stops working (using trackpad).
June 2007 17" MBP SR with 10A394.
Anyone else experience this?

[voxadam]

Cursor sometimes stops working (using trackpad).
June 2007 17" MBP SR with 10A394.
Anyone else experience this?

It's something to do with USB. A simple workaround is to attach any other USB device (I use a mouse, camera or a hard drive) and the bus will rescan, problem solved. It's a pain but at least it's simple enough to "fix".

[mus0r]

CLicking the title bar of a window, doesn't see to minimize any more... weird.

Good riddance! I hated that...I can't tell how many times I accidentally minimized something when I was trying to drag a window, or I accidentally missed of the bubbles in the corner.

[NXTMIKE]

does anyone know if there's still going to be the classic 'expose' option? :confused:

Usually, I find myself using expose to switch between different windows from different applications, and not different windows from the same application.

[vansouza]

Anyone else find this build more unstable? Safari quits when ever and even the dock quits on me. If they don't come out with something soon I am going back to the previous build.

[slackpacker]

Good riddance! I hated that...I can't tell how many times I accidentally minimized something when I was trying to drag a window, or I accidentally missed of the bubbles in the corner.

Still there - Its a checkbox in Prefs/Appearance

[TooBadSoSad]

Is anyone else getting a massive memory leak in java? My java process grows to almost 1.7GB of Real Mem before I have to kill it. I think the only java process I am running is CrashPlan.

[MikhailT]

This is disappointing to said the least, except for Python!

Python 2.6.1 and Python 3.0 are both installed. Doubt if they will update it to 2.6.2 and 3.1 before the final release. (Too bad, 3.1 is worth the update)

[dws90]

Is it just me, or did the "Assign to Space" option in the dock menu disappear with the latest seed?

[MikhailT]

Is it just me, or did the "Assign to Space" option in the dock menu disappear with the latest seed?

I just noticed that. They also moved Show at Login andKeep in Dock to an Options Submenu as well. That's annoying as well, it's only two option, there's no need to place it in submenu.

[InkMaster]

CandyBar doesn't work, either. Looks like no early customization. Ah well.

What do you mean doesn't work? Sure the 'unqualified system' warning pops up, but beyond that... its fully functional it seems...

Cursor sometimes stops working (using trackpad).
June 2007 17" MBP SR with 10A394.
Anyone else experience this?

Yeah, seems to happen every 6-7 hours for me. Both the internal keyboard and trackpad die for a few minutes, though the external keyboard and mouse still continue to work... weird :/

[Master Chief]

You don't see Apple looking 1 or 2 years in the future? You have got to be joking. Take the switch from Power PC to Intel for example. That was a good couple of years after OSX came out.
I was talking about OS development and OS development only (see title: "Apple Seeds OS X Snow Leopard Build 10A394 to") because the Apple engineers are focused on getting 10.6 done.

You don't see Apple looking 1 or 2 years in the
I think that the UI will change to a darker, less hyper color scheme (not necessarily black though) just like they got rid of white plastic (excluding the macbook and mac mini).
Right. Now please reread what I wrote, slowly this time, because I don't think that it will be part of 10.7 but 10.6 – that's why I wrote: "I don't see Apple thinking past 10.6. Not at the present time. It might be part of 10.6 after all, as a surprise, because Apple is not going to wait that long with going black." ;)

[jareddigby]

Apple sats You will not be able to upgrade from the Snow Leopard Developer Preview to the �nal Snow Leopard release:-( True?

[InkMaster]

Apple sats You will not be able to upgrade from the Snow Leopard Developer Preview to the �nal Snow Leopard release:-( True?

High chance of that I would guess.

[MikhailT]

High chance of that I would guess.

Does it matter? with time machine, you can install SL and just restore from the backup.

[Krafty]

What do you mean doesn't work? Sure the 'unqualified system' warning pops up, but beyond that... its fully functional it seems...
Some of my icons still don't change and I can't scroll through the icons there. I don't really consider a quarter working app "working."

[davidkavanaugh]

Any "Font smoothing style" yet?

I find it very odd that Apple has seemingly removed options for "Font smoothing styles" in: System Preferences>Appearance.

Does anyone else find this odd?

Good news for you! I just read on softpedia news that among the new features of snow leopard, one of them will be (drum roll) font-smoothing options. :)

[jareddigby]

can the final version of snow leopard be installed over the beta?

[Krafty]

Good news for you! I just read on softpedia news that among the new features of snow leopard, one of them will be (drum roll) font-smoothing options. :)

Seems to be there for me:

[Smash2404]

cannot minimize the window on double clicking on the titlebar :mad: ,... 10A394 . . any solutions???

got the solution : Goto System Preferences/Appearances

The checkbox is unchecked by default... Do not know why they have unchecked though...

[discosoap]

Is the iStat Pro menu bar working in this build?

This menu worked in 10A380 and it still works in 10A394. I don't see any problem here. Safari is crashing all over the place though. Random mouse & keyboard freezes as well.:mad:

[Mr. Wonderful]

Anyone else think they released Snow Leopard 10A394 through Software Updater because they new so many non-developers were testing it?

[MikhailT]

Anyone else think they released Snow Leopard 10A394 through Software Updater because they new so many non-developers were testing it?

Nope. Apple do occasionally release seed updates via software updates.

[UpQuark]

Is the iStat Pro menu bar working in this build?

No, it is not. :(

[vkritis]

I got the same problem. Although I can install the update without any problems on an iMac, it'll react the way you described on my MBPro. Tried it 3 times, same mess! Incidentally, my sibling owns a similar MBPro to mine and he was able to install same seed successfully too. Quite frustrating really as the previous seed was crashing many of my apps, like Acrobat, etc, which the new seed appears to have repaired. :mad:

[macintoshtoffy]

Anyone else think they released Snow Leopard 10A394 through Software Updater because they new so many non-developers were testing it?

Possibly; given the luke warm reception, Apple need all the hype they can get - if it means end users getting build updates then I think it is a small price to pay.

Well, either that, or Apple didn't want to force developers to download yet another 6GB dmg - for all the broadness in broadband, it takes time downloading, installing etc.

[kristoffer4]

Is iStat Pro Widget working?

[macintoshtoffy]

Is iStat Pro Widget working?

I'm using iStat Pro 4.9 on my dashboard and it is working flawlessly on Snow Leopard 10A394.

[macintoshtoffy]

IIRC Adobe crap never relly works early on.

If it is anything like the transition from Tiger to Leopard, they'll force an upgrade on end users. Low quality, over priced and poorly supported software - Microsoft if it were a graphics company.

[macintoshtoffy]

Apple won't replace the current QT icon until they are confident with all changes (sort of Apple's way of telling people that they're not done with it) but you won't have to wait long (what's a week or two after all).

There is also another 2 months they have up their sleeve for development - hopefully what we'll see is some decisions made to get some more features merged that they feel are stable enough.

[jgrove]

The other main thing from what i have read is that the preview and recent updates still dont have the 64 bit kernel extentions. So i assume from that the OS is still 32bit?

[Manic Mouse]

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2476/settings.tif

Anyone disappointed by the lack of a new UI (or Marble as it's being called) should check out iLeopard (http://littlekiwi.co.cc/page4/page4.html). Basically it's what marble will probably be and replaces all aqua UI elements with more Leopard-esque ones. Works like a charm for me.

[macintoshtoffy]

The other main thing from what i have read is that the preview and recent updates still dont have the 64 bit kernel extentions. So i assume from that the OS is still 32bit?

Which is completely and utterly and patently and royally incorrect. It has been booting into 64bit for quite some time.

[MikhailT]

Which is completely and utterly and patently and royally incorrect. It has been booting into 64bit for quite some time.

It is partially correct. This seed still only have 64bit extensions from the most recent macs. Several early 2007-2008 Intel macbooks and macbook pro still can't boot to 64 kernel.

SL is both a 32bit/64bit kernel, it isn't a 64bit kernel only OS. Apple's site mentioned this as well that it will run 32bit for those that don't support 64bit (original Intel Core Duo macs).

[macintoshtoffy]

It is partially correct. This seed still only have 64bit extensions from the most recent macs. Several early 2007-2008 Intel macbooks and macbook pro still can't boot to 64 kernel.

SL is both a 32bit/64bit kernel, it isn't a 64bit kernel only OS. Apple's site mentioned this as well that it will run 32bit for those that don't support 64bit (original Intel Core Duo macs).

I've got a MacBook and I had an interesting situation where the X3100 video driver is this weird fusion of 32 and 64bit, two of the three components are 32bit only, and one of them is dual 32/64bit. I'm wondering whether Apple has thrown in the towel or are they actually going provide a 64bit X3100 driver.

[jgrove]

It is partially correct. This seed still only have 64bit extensions from the most recent macs. Several early 2007-2008 Intel macbooks and macbook pro still can't boot to 64 kernel.

SL is both a 32bit/64bit kernel, it isn't a 64bit kernel only OS. Apple's site mentioned this as well that it will run 32bit for those that don't support 64bit (original Intel Core Duo macs).

Ok i dont get this, how do you know if its running in 64bit mode?

Cheers

[MikhailT]

I've got a MacBook and I had an interesting situation where the X3100 video driver is this weird fusion of 32 and 64bit, two of the three components are 32bit only, and one of them is dual 32/64bit. I'm wondering whether Apple has thrown in the towel or are they actually going provide a 64bit X3100 driver.

This shows the state of development that Apple is in. It hasn't finished developing all the 64bit extensions yet. 64bit extensions actually started to show up 3-4 seeds ago, about 2 months ago IIRC.

Each new seeds will bring more 64bit extensions as it comes in. It is possible Apple may not provide 64bit SL support to all 64bit laptops, they could postpone the rest of the work for 10.6.1 update.

Ok i dont get this, how do you know if its running in 64bit mode?

Cheers
Go to your System Profiler and Click Software Tab.


Look for 64-bit Kernel and Extensions which is second from bottom.

[slackpacker]

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2476/settings.tif

Anyone disappointed by the lack of a new UI (or Marble as it's being called) should check out iLeopard (http://littlekiwi.co.cc/page4/page4.html). Basically it's what marble will probably be and replaces all aqua UI elements with more Leopard-esque ones. Works like a charm for me.

I want more than just some new scroll bars. Give me something like Pathfinder ... as the New Finder. But the current finder works well enough as it is and PathFinder is a 3rd party program that replaces the finder if you want so I will be happy with that.

[AidenShaw]

The other main thing from what i have read is that the preview and recent updates still dont have the 64 bit kernel extentions. So i assume from that the OS is still 32bit?

It is partially correct. This seed still only have 64bit extensions from the most recent macs. Several early 2007-2008 Intel macbooks and macbook pro still can't boot to 64 kernel.

SL is both a 32bit/64bit kernel, it isn't a 64bit kernel only OS. Apple's site mentioned this as well that it will run 32bit for those that don't support 64bit (original Intel Core Duo macs).

I've got a MacBook and I had an interesting situation where the X3100 video driver is this weird fusion of 32 and 64bit, two of the three components are 32bit only, and one of them is dual 32/64bit. I'm wondering whether Apple has thrown in the towel or are they actually going provide a 64bit X3100 driver.

This shows the state of development that Apple is in. It hasn't finished developing all the 64bit extensions yet. 64bit extensions actually started to show up 3-4 seeds ago, about 2 months ago IIRC.


Are there any good explanations of what Apple is doing with 64-bit OS? Were the promises of true 64-bit for 10.6 empty, or is there just a lot more work to do?

Microsoft's clean break between 32-bit and 64-bit operation systems is beginning to look like a lot cleaner way to make the jump to true 64-bit.

[Eidorian]

Are there any good explanations of what Apple is doing with 64-bit OS? Were the promises of true 64-bit for 10.6 empty, or is there just a lot more work to do?

Microsoft's clean break between 32-bit and 64-bit operation systems is beginning to look like a lot cleaner way to make the jump to true 64-bit.64-bit only on certain machines too? This is going downhill fast.

[MikhailT]

Are there any good explanations of what Apple is doing with 64-bit OS? Were the promises of true 64-bit for 10.6 empty, or is there just a lot more work to do?

Microsoft's clean break between 32-bit and 64-bit operation systems is beginning to look like a lot cleaner way to make the jump to true 64-bit.

64-bit only on certain machines too? This is going downhill fast.

There's nothing to worry about. Promises of true 64bit OS are not false or empty. It has been running in pure 64bit mode on some of the Mac desktops and some unibody Macs. Microsoft had the same issue when they first released Vista. Some people could not find 64 bit drivers for some of their hardware parts and don't forget the disaster that is the XP 64.

You must also understand that all extensions must be 64bit in order to run 64bit kernel. Which means if your mac hardware has 99% extensions ready for 64bit, it still won't boot until that last 1% code is converted to 64bit. There is no exception at all.

Again, Apple has 2 months of full development left and also the seeds that we are using are not the latest codes from all the teams. 10a394 may have been built after WWDC for all we know. Apple is probably 2 months ahead of us in terms of coding.

[Krafty]

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2476/settings.tif

Anyone disappointed by the lack of a new UI (or Marble as it's being called) should check out iLeopard (http://littlekiwi.co.cc/page4/page4.html). Basically it's what marble will probably be and replaces all aqua UI elements with more Leopard-esque ones. Works like a charm for me.

iLeopard wont install on my 10A394.

[AidenShaw]

There's nothing to worry about. Promises of true 64bit OS are not false or empty. It has been running in pure 64bit mode on some of the Mac desktops and some unibody Macs. Microsoft had the same issue when they first released Vista. Some people could not find 64 bit drivers for some of their hardware parts...

The justification that "Apple makes the whole widget" rings hollow here. Microsoft's 64-bit systems supported most mainstream devices out-of-the box.

Apple controls everything, but 2 months out from release there are still mainstream high volume Apples that can't run 64-bit?

That's scary....


... and don't forget the disaster that is the XP 64.

Funny you say that - since I'm typing on an octo-core Xeon that came from Dell with XP-64, was upgraded to Vista x64, and is now running Windows 7 RC x64.

XP-64 was a pain if you had a bunch of old PCI cards that you wanted to connect. If you got a new system, it was easy to find devices with x64 support.

But, point taken. With Vista and especially Windows 7, x64 is a full sibling with x86. And the balance is starting to tip, the end of x86 support is starting to show - some things are here that are x64 only.


You must also understand that all extensions must be 64bit in order to run 64bit kernel. Which means if your mac hardware has 99% extensions ready for 64bit, it still won't boot until that last 1% code is converted to 64bit. There is no exception at all.

It's good to hear that Apple is following the cleaner path that Microsoft took. The earlier message wasn't clear that 64-bit was all or nothing.


Again, Apple has 2 months of full development left and also the seeds that we are using are not the latest codes from all the teams. 10a394 may have been built after WWDC for all we know. Apple is probably 2 months ahead of us in terms of coding.

Apple is not two months ahead in testing, though.

[MikhailT]

The justification that "Apple makes the whole widget" rings hollow here. Microsoft's 64-bit systems supported most mainstream devices out-of-the box.

Apple controls everything, but 2 months out from release there are still mainstream high volume Apples that can't run 64-bit?

That's scary....




Funny you say that - since I'm typing on an octo-core Xeon that came from Dell with XP-64, was upgraded to Vista x64, and is now running Windows 7 RC x64.

XP-64 was a pain if you had a bunch of old PCI cards that you wanted to connect. If you got a new system, it was easy to find devices with x64 support.

But, point taken. With Vista and especially Windows 7, x64 is a full sibling with x86. And the balance is starting to tip, the end of x86 support is starting to show - some things are here that are x64 only.




It's good to hear that Apple is following the cleaner path that Microsoft took. The earlier message wasn't clear that 64-bit was all or nothing.




Apple is not two months ahead in testing, though.

Wait, Apple does testing on 10.x releases? Since when? I thought the testing comes after the final 10.x release and then all the fixes show up in 10.x.x?

:rolleyes:

[Manic Mouse]

iLeopard wont install on my 10A394.

I haven't tried it with 10.6 now, but it works fine in 10.5...

[Krafty]

I haven't tried it with 10.6 now, but it works fine in 10.5...

Won't work cause the installer demands 10.5.

[tompanderson]

Anyone know why when I go to update it says an error occurred and that the file does not exist? I download it and it restarts and it says that.

I have the same problem.

[jgrove]

Is there any suggestion that the Apple Software such as Aperture etc will be available for 64 bit sometime soon after release of SL?

Cheers

[discosoap]

Anyone else think they released Snow Leopard 10A394 through Software Updater because they new so many non-developers were testing it?

This is an interesting theory. Could very well be true, but what would be the implication of that?

[discosoap]

Cursor sometimes stops working (using trackpad).
June 2007 17" MBP SR with 10A394.
Anyone else experience this?

May 2006 Macbook 13" with 10A394 also having ridiculously random freezing of trackpad & keyboard :(

[Mr. Wonderful]

This is an interesting theory. Could very well be true, but what would be the implication of that?

Letting more people do the dirty testing work. We already know all the features at this point, so they might as well lax on the privacy, sort of like what Microsoft did with Windows 7. Just let everybody in and give feedback, and come out with an even better product because of it.

[AidenShaw]

Letting more people do the dirty testing work. We already know all the features at this point, so they might as well lax on the privacy, sort of like what Microsoft did with Windows 7. Just let everybody in and give feedback, and come out with an even better product because of it.

"privacy" or "piracy"? The latter makes more sense.

With Windows 7, Microsoft is actively recruiting testers - Apple certainly isn't doing anything like that. At best they're looking the other way at pirate copies of the WWDC kit.

Microsoft's Windows 7 beta and rc "releases" are a brilliant strategy. By letting millions of supported copies out, they are getting something much more than just testing.

They are getting the users to put pressure on the maker of anything that needs updating for Win7. For example, Nvidia already has WHQL drivers for both x86 and x64 versions of Win7 listed on their standard downloads page.

For the few cases where Vista software won't install on Win7, the makers are getting hammered with questions about "when?" in their user forums.

Brilliant strategy - by the time of the October release there won't be much of the "X won't run on Win7" complaints!

[dilbert4life]

Cursor sometimes stops working (using trackpad).
June 2007 17" MBP SR with 10A394.
Anyone else experience this?

Whew - I thought that I was the only one. My trackpad freezes, although the keyboard continues to work. I'm sure Apple will have it worked out in the final.

What is this I hear about not being able to install the final release over the beta?

[Povilas]

"privacy" or "piracy"? The latter makes more sense.

With Windows 7, Microsoft is actively recruiting testers - Apple certainly isn't doing anything like that. At best they're looking the other way at pirate copies of the WWDC kit.

Microsoft's Windows 7 beta and rc "releases" are a brilliant strategy. By letting millions of supported copies out, they are getting something much more than just testing.

They are getting the users to put pressure on the maker of anything that needs updating for Win7. For example, Nvidia already has WHQL drivers for both x86 and x64 versions of Win7 listed on their standard downloads page.

For the few cases where Vista software won't install on Win7, the makers are getting hammered with questions about "when?" in their user forums.

Brilliant strategy - by the time of the October release there won't be much of the "X won't run on Win7" complaints!

Mac OS X is based on Unix code with other opensource parts, so those parts of the OS are tested by the people all the time. Apple takes those parts and integrates into OS. The only part that needs testing is their one applications and frameworks and they have more than enough registered developers along with their own programmers to test those parts. No need for public testing. Microsoft is another story.

[macintoshtoffy]

Mac OS X is based on Unix code with other opensource parts, so those parts of the OS are tested by the people all the time. Apple takes those parts and integrates into OS. The only part that needs testing is their one applications and frameworks and they have more than enough registered developers along with their own programmers to test those parts. No need for public testing. Microsoft is another story.

True, but given the nature of the Snow Leopard release Apple needs all the hype they can muster; just look at this thread alone - pages upon pages of talking, then we'll talk to friends, use our twitters, update our blogs. Its an infectious marketing ploy which has a hell of alot more credence listening to real world stories than a perfectly orchestrated television, web and print marketing in an official capacity.

[AidenShaw]

Mac OS X is based on Unix code with other opensource parts, so those parts of the OS are tested by the people all the time. Apple takes those parts and integrates into OS. The only part that needs testing is their one applications and frameworks and they have more than enough registered developers along with their own programmers to test those parts. No need for public testing. Microsoft is another story.

Integration requires testing. You cannot take source code from dozens of different places, make small modifications to some of them, complile them all together and expect perfection -- even if each individual piece was (unlikely) perfect.

Also, aren't we actually talking about Apple-specific extensions here (the 64-bit extensions). Stuff that Apple has to write, and that nobody has tested in the wild?

"No need for public testing"? Haha. There are plenty of examples of cases where clearly Apple's "software surprises" were shipped with bugs that would likely have been caught had more open testing been performed.

Microsoft is the innovator here - getting unpaid legions of real users to download and test software. And the test software will automatically generate problem reports and (with opt-in) send them to MS. The Win7 Beta actually had an extra button on each window's title bar labeled "Send feedback to Microsoft" - if you noticed a problem, very easy to report.

[Povilas]

True, but given the nature of the Snow Leopard release Apple needs all the hype they can muster

This is not the line Apple walks for years and you know it ;)

[Povilas]

Integration requires testing. You cannot take source code from dozens of different places, make small modifications to some of them, complile them all together and expect perfection -- even if each individual piece was (unlikely) perfect.

Also, aren't we actually talking about Apple-specific extensions here (the 64-bit extensions). Stuff that Apple has to write, and that nobody has tested in the wild?

"No need for public testing"? Haha. There are plenty of examples of cases where clearly Apple's "software surprises" were shipped with bugs that would likely have been caught had more open testing been performed.

Microsoft is the innovator here - getting unpaid legions of real users to download and test software. And the test software will automatically generate problem reports and (with opt-in) send them to MS. The Win7 Beta actually had an extra button on each window's title bar labeled "Send feedback to Microsoft" - if you noticed a problem, very easy to report.

And you think that this Windows 7 beta public testing will pay off? We shall see very soon ;) The only thing that hurts quality of Apple desktop software is IPHONE and all the hype behind it and not that "let public beta test it" crap and you know it, so stop.

[shodai34]

Hallowhero (and others with this issue) I started with system console - looking at the system.log under 'Files'. I set a marker, tried the update, let it fail then looked at the results in the log. This gave me an idea what was causing errors. I then showed hidden files, and went hunting for the offending files - backed them up to a separate folder, then deleted them from their original locations, until I no longer had any errors in the log. Main culprit for me was Parallels and possibly Version Cue CS2 (no clue why there were even files related to it, been through two software upgrades since, but took it out too.) Also giving me problems were a VPN app I'd installed for Nortel (Contivity), old version of Quicktime that had been moved from the the default location (anything moved from default location can cause an issue, as several apps are overwritten with new versions).

Here are the log entries and what I did to troubleshoot:

{{None of these Receipts were needed, or, if needed, I have original software, so I deleted the offending packages.}}}:

Jun 26 19:32:30 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Flip4Mac QuickTime Components.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:30 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Flip4Mac Web Plugins.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:30 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/GoogleVoiceandVideo.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:31 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Install KeyStation Pro.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:31 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Install KeyStation.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:31 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Install Pavilion.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:31 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Install PitchBoards Pro 2.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:31 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Install Platform.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:31 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/IOXIndustrial-1.1.2b9.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:31 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Nleac.pkg


{{This was the error that clued me in on the bad location/version of QuickTime - didn't cause an error when I installed the Dev. Preview, but on this update, sure didn't like it.}}:

Jun 26 19:33:26 MacPro Software Update[510]: Error Domain=NSCocoaErrorDomain Code=4 UserInfo=0x1165bce00 "The file “QuickTime Player 7.app” doesn’t exist." {\n NSDestinationFilePath = "/var/folders/zz/zzzivhrRnAmviuee+++++++++++/-Tmp-/PKInstallSandbox-tmp/Root/Applications/Utilities/QuickTime Player.app";\n NSFilePath = "/var/folders/zz/zzzivhrRnAmviuee+++++++++++/-Tmp-/PKInstallSandbox-tmp/Root/Applications/Utilities/QuickTime Player 7.app";\n NSUserStringVariant = Move;\n}

{{Problem with automator - certain things aren't the same - so I removed all startup files that used it - including MAMP. Had to rename this file in the end}}:

Jun 26 20:03:24 MacPro org.apache.httpd[1312]: Syntax error on line 1 of /private/etc/apache2/users/klowe2112.conf:
Jun 26 20:03:24 MacPro org.apache.httpd[1312]: Invalid command 'cd', perhaps misspelled or defined by a module not included in the server configuration

If you continue to have issues after troubleshooting your logs, I'd suggest a clean install. However, if you'd like me to look at your logs, send them to shodai34@mail.com along with the steps you've taken so far and I'll see if I can help.

Again - nothing about the NDA indicates we can't be civil and help explain troubleshooting processes. Just because we are all-mighty developers does not mean we all understand how to troubleshoot the OS. Elite bastards we are, we should be CIVIL bastards. And on the Mac vs. Windows thing. One thing we desperately need: Command-X to CUT!!!!!! I hate having to open multiple windows just to move files. Windows OS's since Win98 have gotten file organization and management right. (just nothing else.)

:D :apple: For Life.

Thanks so much. I'll try it right now. Looks like google desktop is giving me grief.

Update: Well I removed everything related to google desktop along with parallels so I'm missing something cause it still doesn't work.

[Mr. Wonderful]

And you think that this Windows 7 beta public testing will pay off? We shall see very soon ;) The only thing that hurts quality of Apple desktop software is IPHONE and all the hype behind it and not that "let public beta test it" crap and you know it, so stop.

I don't understand why people say this. We have already seen Windows 7, and it runs great!

[shodai34]

I don't understand why people say this. We have already seen Windows 7, and it runs great!

Um. Most new versions of Safari are released as public betas before a final release. Public betas are a well known, well understood process for almost all software companies who produce for the public. (Microsoft, Apple, Adobe, and many others). I'm not sure I understand this debate, or get the point? Both Microsoft and Apple have some real hits under their belts and some real stinkers. Both OSX and Vista have good points and bad, and having some sort of competition in the OS market is a good thing for everyone. I'm not sure I understand why Apple's decision not to have a public beta of Snow Leopard is such a hotly debated topic? Beta testing helps get near release software to an extremely wide base of users who report bugs, it helps tremendously for identifying all those little things that are difficult if not impossible to test for. I think OSX doesn't need a public beta as bad, because it is meant to run on dedicated hardware - far fewer variables to test against that way.

Either way - who cares and why?

-Kev

[Krafty]

May 2006 Macbook 13" with 10A394 also having ridiculously random freezing of trackpad & keyboard :(

Same, just happened a few minutes ago. Keyboard was responsive but often time the trackpad stops for a few.

[macintoshtoffy]

Hallowhero (and others with this issue) I started with system console - looking at the system.log under 'Files'. I set a marker, tried the update, let it fail then looked at the results in the log. This gave me an idea what was causing errors. I then showed hidden files, and went hunting for the offending files - backed them up to a separate folder, then deleted them from their original locations, until I no longer had any errors in the log. Main culprit for me was Parallels and possibly Version Cue CS2 (no clue why there were even files related to it, been through two software upgrades since, but took it out too.) Also giving me problems were a VPN app I'd installed for Nortel (Contivity), old version of Quicktime that had been moved from the the default location (anything moved from default location can cause an issue, as several apps are overwritten with new versions).

Here are the log entries and what I did to troubleshoot:

{{None of these Receipts were needed, or, if needed, I have original software, so I deleted the offending packages.}}}:

Jun 26 19:32:30 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Flip4Mac QuickTime Components.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:30 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Flip4Mac Web Plugins.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:30 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/GoogleVoiceandVideo.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:31 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Install KeyStation Pro.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:31 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Install KeyStation.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:31 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Install Pavilion.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:31 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Install PitchBoards Pro 2.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:31 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Install Platform.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:31 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/IOXIndustrial-1.1.2b9.pkg
Jun 26 19:32:31 MacPro Software Update[510]: PackageKit: *** Missing bundle identifier: /Library/Receipts/Nleac.pkg


{{This was the error that clued me in on the bad location/version of QuickTime - didn't cause an error when I installed the Dev. Preview, but on this update, sure didn't like it.}}:

Jun 26 19:33:26 MacPro Software Update[510]: Error Domain=NSCocoaErrorDomain Code=4 UserInfo=0x1165bce00 "The file “QuickTime Player 7.app” doesn’t exist." {\n NSDestinationFilePath = "/var/folders/zz/zzzivhrRnAmviuee+++++++++++/-Tmp-/PKInstallSandbox-tmp/Root/Applications/Utilities/QuickTime Player.app";\n NSFilePath = "/var/folders/zz/zzzivhrRnAmviuee+++++++++++/-Tmp-/PKInstallSandbox-tmp/Root/Applications/Utilities/QuickTime Player 7.app";\n NSUserStringVariant = Move;\n}

{{Problem with automator - certain things aren't the same - so I removed all startup files that used it - including MAMP. Had to rename this file in the end}}:

Jun 26 20:03:24 MacPro org.apache.httpd[1312]: Syntax error on line 1 of /private/etc/apache2/users/klowe2112.conf:
Jun 26 20:03:24 MacPro org.apache.httpd[1312]: Invalid command 'cd', perhaps misspelled or defined by a module not included in the server configuration

If you continue to have issues after troubleshooting your logs, I'd suggest a clean install. However, if you'd like me to look at your logs, send them to shodai34@mail.com along with the steps you've taken so far and I'll see if I can help.

Again - nothing about the NDA indicates we can't be civil and help explain troubleshooting processes. Just because we are all-mighty developers does not mean we all understand how to troubleshoot the OS. Elite bastards we are, we should be CIVIL bastards. And on the Mac vs. Windows thing. One thing we desperately need: Command-X to CUT!!!!!! I hate having to open multiple windows just to move files. Windows OS's since Win98 have gotten file organization and management right. (just nothing else.)

:D :apple: For Life.

Just a side issue, I assume you did do a clean install and not an upgrade. All the trouble shooting in the world is pointless if you did an upgrade instead of a clean install.

[floam]

Anyone else think they released Snow Leopard 10A394 through Software Updater because they new so many non-developers were testing it?

No, Apple isn't trying to assist thieves. And you aren't helping them by pirating unreleased versions of their software.

They do this after builds distributed at WWDC because there are people present who do not have ADC select/premier accounts. Certain people such as lucky student ADC members are present, and are given discs. Releasing updates over software update lets them stay ontop of things even though they can't download new seeds.

[Povilas]

I don't understand why people say this. We have already seen Windows 7, and it runs great!

Tiger runs great for me. Leopard runs great for me. Without public beta tests ;) And if that's the case how many people in reality would test it? You know that not all intel Mac's currnetly can run Snow Leopard because of 64 bit kernel with incomplete kext base. So how many? 10 000?

[Mr. Wonderful]

No, Apple isn't trying to assist thieves. And you aren't helping them by pirating unreleased versions of their software.


I'm not running Snow Leopard, but thanks for the accusations and helping Apple out, vigilante.

Um. Most new versions of Safari are released as public betas before a final release. Public betas are a well known, well understood process for almost all software companies who produce for the public. (Microsoft, Apple, Adobe, and many others). I'm not sure I understand this debate, or get the point? Both Microsoft and Apple have some real hits under their belts and some real stinkers. Both OSX and Vista have good points and bad, and having some sort of competition in the OS market is a good thing for everyone. I'm not sure I understand why Apple's decision not to have a public beta of Snow Leopard is such a hotly debated topic? Beta testing helps get near release software to an extremely wide base of users who report bugs, it helps tremendously for identifying all those little things that are difficult if not impossible to test for. I think OSX doesn't need a public beta as bad, because it is meant to run on dedicated hardware - far fewer variables to test against that way.

Either way - who cares and why?

-Kev
I was referring to the "We'll see" part of the comment of whether Windows 7 will be good or not, not whether OS X needs a public beta or not. I agree with you, though.

[shodai34]

Actually, I did do an upgrade. Which allowed this problem to occur - but my post is an example of how to troubleshoot the problem (I was successful and was able to run the update, hence my troubleshooting is not pointless :) ).

I did recommend in the post that if troubleshooting using the system log doesn't help, the user do a clean install.

Just a side issue, I assume you did do a clean install and not an upgrade. All the trouble shooting in the world is pointless if you did an upgrade instead of a clean install.

[DMann]

Mac OS X is based on Unix code with other opensource parts, so those parts of the OS are tested by the people all the time. Apple takes those parts and integrates into OS. The only part that needs testing is their one applications and frameworks and they have more than enough registered developers along with their own programmers to test those parts. No need for public testing. Microsoft is another story.

Funny, Microsoft has been implementing "public testing" for it's beta software for decades - by merely pawning their beta OS's to the public in the guise of GM releases. Agreed, open source code is exponentially easier to maintain when compared to a closed source code such as Windows, making it is far easier to identify errors and vulnerabilities.

Incidentally, SL will be the first mainstream OS to be totally 64 bit, without the offering of a watered down 32 bit version. (as with W7) By continuing to support 32 bit in 2010, Windows driver developers will likely be less motivated to delve into serious 64 bit development.

Also not looking forward to:

Windows 7 Starter
Windows 7 Home Basic (32bit and 64bit)
Windows 7 Home Premium (32bit and 64bit)
Windows 7 Small Business (32bit and 64bit)
Windows 7 Enterprise (32bit and 64bit)
Windows 7 Professional (32bit and 64bit)
Windows 7 Ultimate (32bit and 64bit)

To Microsoft's (dis)credit, this is a clever strategy for milking extra $ for upgrading from Starter --> Basic --> Premium --> Ultimate - for an already exorbitantly overpriced OS. Although Win 7 does seem to run much more efficiently than does Vista, I'm not sure that 'good enough' will have the potential to sway the majority of corporations and businesses to upgrade - we'll see in October.

Meanwhile, MS has been hard at work with an advertising campaign for IE 8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB9fhjnJcB0) ...utterly desperate, one may surmise.

[diamond.g]

Funny, Microsoft has been implementing "public testing" for it's beta software for decades - by merely pawning their beta OS's to the public in the guise of GM releases. Agreed, open source code is exponentially easier to maintain when compared to a closed source code such as Windows, making it is far easier to identify errors and vulnerabilities.

Incidentally, SL will be the first mainstream OS to be totally 64 bit, without the offering of a watered down 32 bit version. (as with W7) By continuing to support 32 bit in 2010, Windows driver developers will likely be less motivated to delve into serious 64 bit development.

Also not looking forward to:

Windows 7 Starter
Windows 7 Home Basic (32bit and 64bit)
Windows 7 Home Premium (32bit and 64bit)
Windows 7 Small Business (32bit and 64bit)
Windows 7 Enterprise (32bit and 64bit)
Windows 7 Professional (32bit and 64bit)
Windows 7 Ultimate (32bit and 64bit)

To Microsoft's (dis)credit, this is a clever strategy for milking extra $ for upgrading from Starter --> Basic --> Premium --> Ultimate - for an already exorbitantly overpriced OS. Although Win 7 does seem to run much more efficiently than does Vista, I'm not sure that 'good enough' will have the potential to sway the majority of corporations and businesses to upgrade - we'll see in October.

Meanwhile, MS has been hard at work with an advertising campaign for IE 8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB9fhjnJcB0) ...utterly desperate, one may surmise.

That is odd, I thought all you needed was an Intel Mac to run SL? Which would indicate that the first Macbooks and Mac Minis should run SL just fine in 32bit mode...

[AidenShaw]

Incidentally, SL will be the first mainstream OS to be totally a melange of 64-bit and 32-bit kernel code, without the offering of a watered down the advantage of offering separate clean 64-bit and 32-bit versions like Windows 7.

Fixed it for you.

Look at it this way - when Microsoft drops 32-bit support in "Windows 6.2", they simply stop building the 32-bit discs. Much harder for Apple to clean the 32-bit code out of the melange in 10.7. Also note that Microsoft has clearly stated that Windows 7 will be the last version of Windows client that will run on 32-bit machines. Compare that clear stance with all the "will 10.6 support PowerPC?" confusion over the last year.

And your concern about 64-bit Windows 7 drivers is pure ininformed FUD (or worse, intentional misinformation). The Windows driver development model makes it easy to build both 32-bit and 64-bit drivers from a single source. Microsoft requires that any product work on both x86 and x64 in order to get the Vista (and Win7) logo.

Besides, Apple will have exactly the same requirement for both 32-bit and 64-bit drivers as long as the first Yonah 32-bit systems are supported. Your post is clearly a case of the camel not seeing the crookedness of his own neck.... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_calling_the_kettle_black#Similar_idioms_in_other_languages)

[Mactagonist]

No, Apple isn't trying to assist thieves. And you aren't helping them by pirating unreleased versions of their software.

They do this after builds distributed at WWDC because there are people present who do not have ADC select/premier accounts. Certain people such as lucky student ADC members are present, and are given discs. Releasing updates over software update lets them stay ontop of things even though they can't download new seeds.

I dont think you understand the legal definition of the term 'theft'. Despite what the corporate world would like you to think, theft and copyright infringement are totally different concepts.

[AidenShaw]

I dont think you understand the legal definition of the term 'theft'.

But we're not in a court of law.

In common English usage, "taking something without paying the price normally charged by the maker of the thing" is "theft".

However you define it, though, both are wrong.

[macintoshtoffy]

No, Apple isn't trying to assist thieves. And you aren't helping them by pirating unreleased versions of their software.

Calm down and get down out of the rafters. I personally don't see anything wrong with people downloading, using or what have you with the beta builds as long as they purchase the final version. Apple loses nothing by people using the beta builds. I've used the beta builds and its allowed me to experiment a little - and to get a realistic view of what Snow Leopard will be like.

They do this after builds distributed at WWDC because there are people present who do not have ADC select/premier accounts. Certain people such as lucky student ADC members are present, and are given discs. Releasing updates over software update lets them stay ontop of things even though they can't download new seeds.

That is probably the most logical thing; that and saving money not seeding another 6gb download when it wasn't necessary.

[Mactagonist]

But we're not in a court of law.

In common English usage, "taking something without paying the price normally charged by the maker of the thing" is "theft".

However you define it, though, both are wrong.

Your 'common english' statement is silly. So using a coupon or buying on clearance or any other way of "not paying the price normally charged by the maker" would be theft to you? :rolleyes:

When I downloaded a copy of 10a380 and updated it to 10a394, was something 'taken' from Apple? Did they lose the use of SL?

No. Nothing was 'taken'. That is precisely why copyright infringement and theft are considered separate concepts.

I would agree that it is wrong, but a very minor wrong. Personally I consider 'non profit' copyright infringement to be akin to breaking a speed limit. Something that shouldnt be done to excess, but that is so common that there are few among us who arnt guilty of it.

[AidenShaw]

Your 'common english' statement is silly. So using a coupon or buying on clearance or any other way of "not paying the price normally charged by the maker" would be theft to you? :rolleyes:.

The coupon or promotion establishes a "normal price". The maker does not need to keep the price constant over time.


When I downloaded a copy of 10a380 and updated it to 10a394, was something 'taken' from Apple? Did they lose the use of SL?

No. Nothing was 'taken'. That is precisely why copyright infringement and theft are considered separate concepts.

Separate in court lingo, but not in common use.

It's also a bit muddied by the fact that Apple does not sell the 10.6 beta in a retail store. However, it seems that paying Apple for ADC or buying a ticket to WWDC is the only legitimate way to get it. Therefore, it could be argued that Apple is suffering the financial loss of an ADC membership when the beta is stolen over the torrent.


I would agree that it is wrong, but a very minor wrong. Personally I consider 'non profit' copyright infringement to be akin to breaking a speed limit. Something that shouldnt be done to excess, but that is so common that there are few among us who arnt guilty of it.

Obviously, your salary does not depend on people paying for software (or does it, and you are condoning a lower salary for yourself?).

In my mind, sticking a copy of 10.5 inside your jacket and walking out of the store is *exactly* the same wrong as downloading a copy of 10.5 from the torrent.

</tangent>

[DMann]

And your concern about 64-bit Windows 7 drivers is pure ininformed FUD (or worse, intentional misinformation).While I am unfamiliar with the English term "ininformed," I had clearly stated that "Windows driver developers will likely be less motivated to delve into serious 64 bit development." This is merely speculation, nothing more, and hardly seems to qualify as the FUD you have so defensively and insipidly classified it as.


Your post is clearly a case of the camel not seeing the crookedness of his own neck.... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_calling_the_kettle_black#Similar_idioms_in_other_languages)The idioms you reference do not apply here, as I was describing something which is external to my own being, i.e., I have no personal ties to either W7 or SL - the pot, from my point of view, from the outside, is black, and the kettle is not. I, however, could not actually be the pot which calls the kettle black anymore than I could assess the state of the camel's neck as my own. Most ironically, a classic example of the aforementioned idiom, "The Pot Calling the Kettle Black," can be most profoundly illustrated by examining your very own posts:

The Pot:
Meh....

Now the tens of thousands of Apple employees who actually make it happen won't be noticed - the spotlight is back on the Lord God Jobs.

Sigh....


Calls the Kettle Black:

Sad to see that so many people think that making juvenile comments about someone at Microsoft is the right way to honor Steve Jobs' return to work at Apple.

They must be really, really scared about Windows 7....





</sarcasm>

[mmulin]

Anyone else think they released Snow Leopard 10A394 through Software Updater because they new so many non-developers were testing it?

I am wondering here whether it checks if it is updating to a legit developer. I am able to see and download A394 in my software update as a developer, my friend is not even able to see it in SU. He used a torrent copy to install A380. Reading through the many threats here, I get the picture, many were able to download A394 via SU despite being non-developers.

[Mactagonist]

...



Separate in court lingo, but not in common use.

It's also a bit muddied by the fact that Apple does not sell the 10.6 beta in a retail store. However, it seems that paying Apple for ADC or buying a ticket to WWDC is the only legitimate way to get it. Therefore, it could be argued that Apple is suffering the financial loss of an ADC membership when the beta is stolen over the torrent.



theft
Pronunciation:
\ˈtheft\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English thiefthe, from Old English thīefth; akin to Old English thēof thief
Date:
before 12th century
1 a: the act of stealing ; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it b: an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property
2obsolete : something stolen
3: a stolen base in baseball


Unless the 'taking' of software deprives its owner of it completely (IE: theft of the only copy of source code) it is not theft. You can say that isnt your idea of "common usage" if you want, but that is reality.



Obviously, your salary does not depend on people paying for software (or does it, and you are condoning a lower salary for yourself?).

In my mind, sticking a copy of 10.5 inside your jacket and walking out of the store is *exactly* the same wrong as downloading a copy of 10.5 from the torrent.

</tangent>

I cant speak to what goes on in your mind, but legally there is a huge difference between the two.

If my salary depended on people paying for software I would do my utmost to ensure that the software had enough value to attract customers. Well made, innovative, compelling software with good support that is sold at a fair price doesnt have to worry about piracy.

Case in point: Snow Leopard. I may be using an early copy because I am impatient, but I have also preordered my 'up to date' copy. The software was sold at a fair price and had enough value to earn my business. Despite the fact that I could simply keep using this pirated copy.

[pdjudd]

Case in point: Snow Leopard. I may be using an early copy because I am impatient, but I have also preordered my 'up to date' copy. The software was sold at a fair price and had enough value to earn my business. Despite the fact that I could simply keep using this pirated copy.

AidenShaw is right and I agree with his statement on the matter (and that say something since I usually don't agree!). The pre-release seeds are not intended for public consumption regardless of your intention to get Snow Leopard. Your up to date purchase was for an operating system that is going to be sold to you in September. It does not grant you any access to development builds in any way. By downloading these builds without permission from Apple, you are depriving them of their right under copyright to restrict its availability to the public.

The pre-releases are intended to their paid select developers. If you did not get it from that program you are in fact stealing. Apple did not grant you access to those files. They are not available to the public. It doesn't matter how much you want it, but Apple does not test their OS like Microsoft does - Apple does it privately.

And there is theft going on. Intellectual property can be stolen even if it is not represented in a physical form - its those laws that prevent you from downloading trials of commercial software and cracking them for prate re-distribution.

By illegitimately obtaining non-public software you are:
1) Depriving Apple of the subscription costs to be a ACD member (which they are entitled to ask for)
2) Depriving Apple of their right to control distribution of their intellectual property (again which they are entitled to do).

You may not be going into an Apple store and doing a 5 finger discount on (say) Leopard, but its the same thing. You are depriving something from a property holder. You do not yet possess the necessary usage license for Snow Leopard - that doesn't happen until September.

Here (http://www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate/#hardewareterms)are the terms for the program you signed up for:
Mac OS X updates, which may currently be downloaded from www.apple.com or software update, are not included in this program.

This offer is not valid in conjunction with any other Mac OS offer from Apple (note: this in my mind covers the pre-release)

This program entitles the purchaser of a qualifying product purchased between June 8, 2009, and December 26, 2009, to upgrade to Mac OS X v10.6 Snow Leopard. (Note: This would defiantly preclude any pre-release seeds since that is a different system).

This offer is limited to one Mac OS X v10.6 Snow Leopard upgrade kit per qualifying computer purchased. (Read - not the pre-releases)



I understand that you think you paid market price, but that is irrelevant. You don't get to determine the market price for products that you do not own. That's for Apple to determine.

[AidenShaw]

While I am unfamiliar with the English term "ininformed,"

A typo, obviously.


I had clearly stated that "Windows driver developers will likely be less motivated to delve into serious 64 bit development." This is merely speculation, nothing more, and hardly seems to qualify as the FUD you have so defensively and insipidly classified it as.

The "U" in FUD is for "uncertainty", which your speculation seeks to foment.

Your speculation also assumes that the reader is ignorant of the Windows driver development environment and tools, and doesn't realize that common source driver development is supported, facilitated and encouraged. If one's x64 driver isn't "serious", then the x86 driver also isn't "serious".

The idiom referred to the operating systems, obviously, since the post criticized Windows for a "flaw" that OSX shares.

[Mactagonist]

In no way do I think that the 'up to date' preorder of SL I did makes my use of the early copy authorized. Why would anyone think that? :confused:

I completely understand that using the leaked early SL build is copyright infringement. However this is a civil issue, not a criminal one. (as you seem to imply by mentioning stealing and theft) I consider 'not for profit' copyright infringement to be trivial issue on par with speeding or jaywalking.

I mentioned my 'up to date' order simply as a way to illustrate the success of Apple's approach to 'combating' piracy. They making great software and offer it at a fair price without antagonizing their users. That is how you turn potential pirates into actual customers.

AidenShaw is right and I agree with his statement on the matter (and that say something since I usually don't agree!). The pre-release seeds are not intended for public consumption regardless of your intention to get Snow Leopard. Your up to date purchase was for an operating system that is going to be sold to you in September. It does not grant you any access to development builds in any way. By downloading these builds without permission from Apple, you are depriving them of their right under copyright to restrict its availability to the public.

The pre-releases are intended to their paid select developers. If you did not get it from that program you are in fact stealing. Apple did not grant you access to those files. They are not available to the public. It doesn't matter how much you want it, but Apple does not test their OS like Microsoft does - Apple does it privately.

And there is theft going on. Intellectual property can be stolen even if it is not represented in a physical form - its those laws that prevent you from downloading trials of commercial software and cracking them for prate re-distribution.

By illegitimately obtaining non-public software you are:
1) Depriving Apple of the subscription costs to be a ACD member (which they are entitled to ask for)
2) Depriving Apple of their right to control distribution of their intellectual property (again which they are entitled to do).

You may not be going into an Apple store and doing a 5 finger discount on (say) Leopard, but its the same thing. You are depriving something from a property holder. You do not yet possess the necessary usage license for Snow Leopard - that doesn't happen until September.

Here (http://www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate/#hardewareterms)are the terms for the program you signed up for:


I understand that you think you paid market price, but that is irrelevant. You don't get to determine the market price for products that you do not own. That's for Apple to determine.

[pdjudd]

In no way do I think that the 'up to date' preorder of SL I did makes my use of the early copy authorized. Why would anyone think that? :confused:

The fact that you illegally obtained it along with the claim that it is not theft gave me that impression. You seemed to justify it by saying that you already bought Slow Leopard up to date and paid fair market value for what you have.

I completely understand that using the leaked early SL build is copyright infringement. However this is a civil issue, not a criminal one. (as you seem to imply by mentioning stealing and theft) I consider 'not for profit' copyright infringement to be trivial issue on par with speeding or jaywalking.

1) You did not obtain it through legitimate means - that is the same as using bit-torrent to get unpaid software. You did not pay for it. Not paying for things is stealing. Stealing is both criminal and civil.

Furthermore, calling it a trivial issue akin to speeding is irrelevant and is no more justifiable. It doesn't amatter how many people violate it and or get away with it. The crime is still on the books and it is enforced. It still is wrong.

I mentioned my 'up to date' order simply as a way to illustrate the success of Apple's approach to 'combating' piracy. They making great software and offer it at a fair price without antagonizing their users. That is how you turn potential pirates into actual customers.

Except by downloading software illegally, you are in fact a pirate.

[AidenShaw]

Except by downloading software illegally, you are in fact a pirate.

... and he's giving Apple his name and address so that the legal goons from Cupertino can pay him a visit. :eek:

But Apple doesn't need a name on a board to find you - they have your IP address from the connections to software updates.

(...and Bryan might like Sugar Sweet Sunshine cupcakes...}

[Mr. Wonderful]

The fact that you illegally obtained it along with the claim that it is not theft gave me that impression. You seemed to justify it by saying that you already bought Slow Leopard up to date and paid fair market value for what you have.



1) You did not obtain it through legitimate means - that is the same as using bit-torrent to get unpaid software. You did not pay for it. Not paying for things is stealing. Stealing is both criminal and civil.

Furthermore, calling it a trivial issue akin to speeding is irrelevant and is no more justifiable. It doesn't amatter how many people violate it and or get away with it. The crime is still on the books and it is enforced. It still is wrong.



Except by downloading software illegally, you are in fact a pirate.
Who cares? You don't work for Apple.

[pdjudd]

Who cares? You don't work for Apple.
I care about people pirating software. I work in the technology industry. Even though I don't make software or profit off of it directly, I do care as a customer about people violating the law. Like it or not even supposed "victimless" crimes like speeding still affect the public at large. I attack piracy and defend IP rights because I want the same rights respected when I do create them. I don't want people stealing stuff they don't own - its not the way society should act.

[zachplaysguitar]

I care about people pirating software. I work in the technology industry. Even though I don't make software or profit off of it directly, I do care as a customer about people violating the law. Like it or not even supposed "victimless" crimes like speeding still affect the public at large. I attack piracy and defend IP rights because I want the same rights respected when I do create them. I don't want people stealing stuff they don't own - its not the way society should act.

K thanks, dad.

[pdjudd]

K thanks, dad.
You do know that is condescending. How about this. Piracy is stealing! It is against the law!

[windywoo]

I care about people pirating software. I work in the technology industry. Even though I don't make software or profit off of it directly, I do care as a customer about people violating the law. Like it or not even supposed "victimless" crimes like speeding still affect the public at large. I attack piracy and defend IP rights because I want the same rights respected when I do create them. I don't want people stealing stuff they don't own - its not the way society should act.

He's using software which isn't available for sale yet, no monetary damages have been done, in fact what real damage has been done? I can appreciate you dislike piracy, but to pursue enforcement of regulations when no harm has been done is obsessive and not the way society should act.

[MikhailT]

You do know that is condescending. How about this. Piracy is stealing! It is against the law!

Just stop preaching. Everybody knows it is against the law. You are not going to stop them from it.


Anyway, in case anybody is wondering, the update actually bought 64bit kernel support for early 2008 Penyrn MBP models. I was able to get it to boot 64bit via modifying the boot.plist by adding arch=x86_64 as key under Kernel Flags.

I had to revert back to 32bit because little snitch is not 64bit and my logitech mouse doesn't work with LLC in 64bit either.

He's using software which isn't available for sale yet, no monetary damages have been done, in fact what real damage has been done? I can appreciate you dislike piracy, but to pursue enforcement of regulations when no harm has been done is obsessive and not the way society should act.
Actually, companies paid for ADC to get access to the seeding program. So there is some monetary damages. That's beside the point.

[pdjudd]

He's using software which isn't available for sale yet, no monetary damages have been done, in fact what real damage has been done? I can appreciate you dislike piracy, but to pursue enforcement of regulations when no harm has been done is obsessive and not the way society should act.

Actually, as it has been stated by AidenShaw,- the only way you are allowed to use it would be if you were an ACD developer with Apple. That is not something that can be garnered for free. Apple was deprived not only of the finances related to the ACD program, but their rights to control something private.

[pdjudd]

Just stop preaching. Everybody knows it is against the law. You are not going to stop them from it.

That doesn't change the facts.

[fiercetiger224]

He's using software which isn't available for sale yet, no monetary damages have been done, in fact what real damage has been done? I can appreciate you dislike piracy, but to pursue enforcement of regulations when no harm has been done is obsessive and not the way society should act.

Exactly. What damages have been done? First of all, he's not using it to turn in a profit. If he was say, using it for work, like creating a video in Final Cut for a client, then it would be causing some damage. If he downloaded it (legally or illegally) to just play around and test it, then it wouldn't cause any damage. I normally would agree because I'm against piracy, but under the circumstances, if no damages are done, then I'm fine with it. This is why there's trial software, etc, so people can test before they buy.

Besides, this isn't really public software, so no real damages are really done (besides ADC developer fees). Who should be to blame for these software leaks? Who do you think leaked this? Most likely software developers themselves. Ironic eh? So the real people to blame, are the people that SHARE the software. :rolleyes:

[pdjudd]

Exactly. What damages have been done? First of all, he's not using it to turn in a profit. If he was say, using it for work, like creating a video in Final Cut for a client, then it would be causing some damage. If he downloaded it (legally or illegally) to just play around and test it, then it wouldn't cause any damage. I normally would agree because I'm against piracy, but under the circumstances, if no damages are done, then I'm fine with it. This is why there's trial software, etc, so people can test before they buy.[\quote]

The law doesn't care what your motive was. If you steal something, even for personal testing or non commercial usage it is still stealing. Apple was deprived of the (at least) thousand dollars that you have to pay to get said unreleased software. It s not fair to the people who play fair.

[quote]Besides, this isn't really public software, so no real damages are really done (besides ADC developer fees). Who should be to blame for these software leaks? Who do you think leaked this? Most likely software developers themselves. Ironic eh? So the real people to blame, are the people that SHARE the software. :rolleyes:

It isn't public at all. The blame lies on all parties involved (the leaker and the pirate). I condemn all guilty parties.

[zachplaysguitar]

You do know that is condescending. How about this. Piracy is stealing! It is against the law!

lol, i was kidding :p

[pdjudd]

lol, i was kidding :p

Humor is not universal. Nor is it obvious. My bad.

[Mactagonist]

...

(...and Bryan might like Sugar Sweet Sunshine cupcakes...}

They are delicious! Let me know if you are ever in town, I am always looking for an excuse to go! :cool:

[fiercetiger224]

It isn't public at all. The blame lies on all parties involved (the leaker and the pirate). I condemn all guilty parties.

Haha you can if you want. But it doesn't change the fact that there is always going to be piracy. Here's a twist: what if Apple leaked the software themselves? :rolleyes:

You know what's even more awesome? The law doesn't care what you have to say. The law however, causes more problems than what it fixes. This is starting to sound more and more like 24... ;)

[pdjudd]

Haha you can if you want. But it doesn't change the fact that there is always going to be piracy. Here's a twist: what if Apple leaked the software themselves? :rolleyes:

Why would they do that? Apple gets enough promotion of their OS from fans -not by leaking their OS. Its contrary to their mania of secrecy. If you want to make big claims like like that, be prepared to back it up with proof. Second, the presence of crime doesn't justify breaking it further.

You know what's even more awesome? The law doesn't care what you have to say.

What??? I am actually agreeing with the law, so it does care.

The law however, causes more problems than what it fixes. This is starting to sound more and more like 24... ;)
Huh?

[fiercetiger224]

Why would they do that? Apple gets enough promotion of their OS from fans -not by leaking their OS. Its contrary to their mania of secrecy. If you want to make big claims like like that, be prepared to back it up with proof. Second, the presence of crime doesn't justify breaking it further.

What??? I am actually agreeing with the law, so it does care.

Huh?

Ahh, sarcasm is hard to detect online eh? ;)

Anyway, I guess you didn't get the 24 reference. I guess you don't watch 24, do you? :rolleyes:

[pdjudd]

I guess you don't watch 24, do you? :rolleyes:

Not in years no.

[DMann]

It is against the law! Engaging in any sexual position other than missionary is illegal in Washington DC. I guess we'll have to put the innovation on hold until they amend that one.

[pendolino]

Yes, we signed an NDA, that doesn't mean we have to be jerks, and it doesn't mean we can't talk about troubleshooting steps.

I fixed the problem on mine by going into the console, looking at the system log file for errors, and seeing what wasn't working. I ended up removing everything related to parallels desktop, and several other startup items that were indicating problems. Now happy to report I run 10a394 with no problem.

@shodai34 thank you for so generously contributing your input on the SL error on update. simply removing most of my extraneous startup items under 'user accounts' in system preferences allowed the update to proceed nicely.

its good to see that there are a few decent people out there that don't think they have to be jerks to make a point.

anyone else that managed to fix their problem please dont forget to share what you did if it adds value to the discussion.