PDA

View Full Version : My First Job. Critiques/Ideas needed!




MacDaddy901
Jun 29, 2009, 01:09 AM
So this is the very first graphic design job I have ever taken on. My neighbor is making a web site for a company and asked if I would come up with some logo ideas and I could make some easy money. I said yes.

The company I am making the logo for is called Medical Growth Fund, or Med Growth Fund for short. Basically they invest in smaller companies that deal with health sciences or health services.

I'm very new to this. I really enjoy this field and can see myself pursuing a career in it. I have a basic understanding of Photoshop and Dreamweaver (I built my high schools website) and am teaching myself Illustrator and some other programs. So any critiques, ideas, suggestions would be great.

So far this is what I've come up with.

http://i42.tinypic.com/nyiukg.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/20zppg8.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/1671jlz.jpg



THX1139
Jun 29, 2009, 02:29 AM
Let me guess, you have no formal training in graphic design? If not, then why are you doing this for money?

As for crit, I don't know where to begin.... Okay, your graphic elements- what do they represent? What are the relationships to each other? What message do they convey? Why did you choose those type faces? They don't relate to the graphics. And you have major kerning issues. Why blue? Do they plan to use the logo anywhere else than the website? Did you sample the blue with a PMS swatch? How does it look in black and white? I could go on...

Maybe you should post a scan of your thumbnails so we can see what you are thinking. You did do thumbnails didn't you?

Sorry if I'm coming off as harsh. I'm just a bit weary of people who think they can just pull a logo out of thin air because they think it would be fun. Especially those people with no formal training and then do it for hire. But, I'm especially weary of people who hire untrained people and take advantage of them.

kymac
Jun 29, 2009, 05:56 AM
if i could tell you one thing to help you as a designer.. it would be to make sure you have a reason behind every single element you include in the composition.. if there's no reason to something you need to get rid of it. with that being said here it goes..

first one: i'm curious to know what the idea behind blocking the left side and bottom with the 'L' shaped line was? also why did you choose to use small caps while the text is being boxed in (the word growth).. it intrudes on the margin the text and box create.. not only that, but this really breaks the horizontal flow that the element in my first question is trying to create. the two things are competing against each other in a negative way.

second: what is that ginormous broken circle supposed to represent? if you tried to fit this logo on a business card you wouldn't be able to read the company name because of the space required by that circle. also i'm struggling to make a connection with that typeface and the purpose of the business.

third: i kinda don't even want to help with this one because i don't want to sound like i'm encouraging you to use it.. but, if you really liked this design and want to go through with it.. just ask your self 'why did i decide to include this unidentifiable shape as the focal point of this design?' also your kerning needs a lot of polishing.. and same problem goes with the typeface as in number two

since it sounds like you're brand new at this.. another thing you should know is that critiquing usually only brings out the negative, you can either find offense by it, or use it to your advantage and improve your design skills. good luck!

LeviG
Jun 29, 2009, 09:56 AM
First one - no major comments, it just looks like every other generic web logo on the medical field
second - welcome to the london underground
third - best of the bunch but has serious text issues

MacDaddy901
Jun 29, 2009, 11:39 AM
Let me guess, you have no formal training in graphic design? If not, then why are you doing this for money?

As for crit, I don't know where to begin.... Okay, your graphic elements- what do they represent? What are the relationships to each other? What message do they convey? Why did you choose those type faces? They don't relate to the graphics. And you have major kerning issues. Why blue? Do they plan to use the logo anywhere else than the website? Did you sample the blue with a PMS swatch? How does it look in black and white? I could go on...

Yes. I have no formal training in graphic design. That's why I'm coming to you guys. I have done other work for free but this one offered to pay me some serious money so I didn't turn it down.

I want my graphic elements to be simple and clean. Professional looking. And I chose fonts that were the same. Simple and clean looking. Blue suits the medical field very well and again, I think it looks professional. And green ties in with their partner company Bio Tech.

And yes, you do come off harsh. But thats what I expected. This is my very first job. And I am learning. And I want your opinion, weather it be good or bad.

I should also mention I am focusing on the top and bottom. I don't like the middle one after looking at it this morning. And these aren't the final product. I'm sending these to her to see which direction to go into.

raygungirl
Jun 29, 2009, 11:54 AM
I like the last one best.

I'm not gonna offer much advice, as I'm no professional. I took one Photoshop class in college just for the easy credit (yes, one credit) and a little bit was covered about logos. Nothing in particular was mentioned by that teacher about every bit of the logo having meaning behind it, but she was hardly a professional designer. She taught, and she restored photographs as a side job.

As for the actual layout of the third, I think it's fine. It's not the most amazing logo ever, but I think it'll do, it looks like a logo I would see on a sign somewhere, so it's got that going for it. :) I do, however, agree about the text. There are kerning issues and I personally dislike the font, but that's just personal preference.

You do need to keep in mind that your logo needs to be able to scale to very large and very small and still be legible. I think that last logo would get very muddied and blurry if it was on a business card, as the lines are all very close to each other. The logos also don't look like they're vector, and the logo would have to be vector or else it'd basically be useless. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

Finally, if you decide to pursue design as a career, take a few classes - or better yet, get a degree - so people don't automatically write you off as an amateur. Many people excel at professions BEFORE they have formal training, and they get the training to perfect their talent and to have a piece of paper that shows they supposedly know their stuff. Don't listen to anyone who tells you any different: you could be a natural designer, even without training. But there are certain rules you'll have to learn to be great. To truly hone your skills, take some formal design classes, and make sure you learn all the rules before you can decide to break them.

Good luck. :)

r6girl
Jun 29, 2009, 12:11 PM
http://i44.tinypic.com/20zppg8.jpg


If your client has ever been to England, the second one should look very familiar to him/her.

http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/london-underground-logo.jpg

I would say that one of the first rules of design/art is to not copy other designs.

LeviG
Jun 29, 2009, 12:11 PM
Yes. I have no formal training in graphic design. That's why I'm coming to you guys. I have done other work for free but this one offered to pay me some serious money so I didn't turn it down.

I want my graphic elements to be simple and clean. Professional looking. And I chose fonts that were the same. Simple and clean looking. Blue suits the medical field very well and again, I think it looks professional. And green ties in with their partner company Bio Tech.

And yes, you do come off harsh. But thats what I expected. This is my very first job. And I am learning. And I want your opinion, weather it be good or bad.

I should also mention I am focusing on the top and bottom. I don't like the middle one after looking at it this morning. And these aren't the final product. I'm sending these to her to see which direction to go into.
No offence intended here but you have to remember that most of the designers who do this for a living on here have atleast some kind of training and have most likely gained some sort of debt from said training. And your 'help' would also cost money in any business too.

There is a reason we all go and learn about design as its not just a case of picking up a computer and coming up with something.

In your case you need to learn about typography for starters. Colours come last, your designs need to work in black and white first.

I'll assume you did do more than 3 designs and/or even a mind map/spider diagram (or similar) and looked into current designs that are on the market already?.

Also if you are going to come on here and say that your designs are professional looking and others in the field, that you have come to get help from, are saying that your designs aren't very good then you seriously need to look at your designs from a non biased perspective, as clearly those trained in the field have seen things that you have obviously missed.

Maybe the critique by THX1139 was a little blunt but you have to understand that the amount of 'free' logo design that is asked of this forum alone is gradually increasing and it can be a little annoying at times when those asking for help are those who are getting paid for the work THEY are producing under a 'professional' guise.

MacDaddy901
Jun 29, 2009, 12:57 PM
No offence intended here but you have to remember that most of the designers who do this for a living on here have atleast some kind of training and have most likely gained some sort of debt from said training. And your 'help' would also cost money in any business too.

There is a reason we all go and learn about design as its not just a case of picking up a computer and coming up with something.

In your case you need to learn about typography for starters. Colours come last, your designs need to work in black and white first.

I'll assume you did do more than 3 designs and/or even a mind map/spider diagram (or similar) and looked into current designs that are on the market already?.

Also if you are going to come on here and say that your designs are professional looking and others in the field, that you have come to get help from, are saying that your designs aren't very good then you seriously need to look at your designs from a non biased perspective, as clearly those trained in the field have seen things that you have obviously missed.

Maybe the critique by THX1139 was a little blunt but you have to understand that the amount of 'free' logo design that is asked of this forum alone is gradually increasing and it can be a little annoying at times when those asking for help are those who are getting paid for the work THEY are producing under a 'professional' guise.


Yes. That is why I am coming to you. I have no formal training and you do. I want your opinion. And suggestions. NOT you to make a logo for me. That's not what I'm looking for. I am trying to gain experience. So, no I didn't come on here and say that I wanted you to make me a logo.

I want your opinion. I don't know how else to say that. It seems like you guys take offense to people who are starting out and haven't taken design classes yet. And it seems like your pissed I'm getting paid for doing this. I'm doing this as a favor for someone who is building a website. I just want your opinion.

THX1139
Jun 29, 2009, 01:12 PM
Yes. I have no formal training in graphic design. That's why I'm coming to you guys. I have done other work for free but this one offered to pay me some serious money so I didn't turn it down...

Okay then, I'm going to pass on giving you any help. Come back when you have some kind of formal training or (a lot of) professional experience. I can't support anyone who does design work for pay when they haven't paid their dues. It undermines the industry and makes it more difficult for those of us (who have paid our dues) to make a living. What you are asking is ridiculous. You don't know what you are doing, so you come on here to have others tell you what you need. Are you going to split the money with everyone who helps you? Eh, I didn't think so. You're just using this opportunity to make a quick buck and take advantage of your neighbor.

And for what it's worth. The only concept that has potential is the one that is a rip off... eh, I meant copy, of the Underground logo.

uberamd
Jun 29, 2009, 01:15 PM
Never before have I seen such a hostile group of people. My goodness. Did all the 'designers' wake up on the wrong side of the bed today or what.

arkitect
Jun 29, 2009, 01:18 PM
Never before have I seen such a hostile group of people. My goodness. Did all the 'designers' wake up on the wrong side of the bed today or what.

No. All the 'Designers' know when something is not up to scratch. Call it a gut instinct… ;)

No malice intended…

uberamd
Jun 29, 2009, 01:21 PM
No. All the 'Designers' know when something is not up to scratch. Call it a gut instinct… ;)

No malice intended…

Well I'll be sure the next time someone asks me for computer help on these forums to first ask if they have any training. If not, I will rip on them a bit and then belittle them then tell them no. Sound good?

My friends have many times been fixing someone's system for pay and they come to me for assistance. I don't ask for a chunk of the change. I don't tout my training or years of on-the-job experience. I instead help them if I can otherwise say I can't because I don't know how. The whole "paying your dues" excuse is stupid. Sorry, but it is.

bbeers
Jun 29, 2009, 01:22 PM
...
I want your opinion. I don't know how else to say that. It seems like you guys take offense to people who are starting out and haven't taken design classes yet. And it seems like your pissed I'm getting paid for doing this. I'm doing this as a favor for someone who is building a website. I just want your opinion.

What I think one of the big problems with untrained people, and this not a knock at them by any means, is that don't understand what they are asking for when they want some one's opinion.

When you are asking for a an opinion/critic of work, that clearly has some strong design problem those problems gets brought to the forefront. Now this is part of the whole process that the designer looking for help wants. But when the problems with the design are very basic design problems that are taught in all design classes, people start to get offended. People are offended because the "help" you are asking for is really pointing out the problems and offering suggestions to remedy the problems. Now you fix he problems and go through a second round of "help". At this point who came up with the design. Who should get credit/paid for the design. The person who had the foresight and knowledge to address the problems, or the person who just did what other people told them to do.

It is a different story when the design have clearly been thought through and are looking for another set of eye to assist with tweaks.

I hope this wasn't taken personally I am just trying to explain where I, and probably other designers are coming from, when we get annoyed in untrained people getting paid to produce inferior work and bring down the whole profession in the process.

uberamd
Jun 29, 2009, 01:24 PM
What I think one of the big problems with untrained people, and this not a knock at them by any means, is that don't understand what they are asking for when they want some one's opinion.

When you are asking for a an opinion/critic of work, that clearly has some strong design problem those problems gets brought to the forefront. Now this is part of the whole process that the designer looking for help wants. But when the problems with the design are very basic design problems that are taught in all design classes, people start to get offended. People are offended because the "help" you are asking for is really pointing out the problems and offering suggestions to remedy the problems. Now you fix he problems and go through a second round of "help". At this point who came up with the design. Who should get credit/paid for the design. The person who had the foresight and knowledge to address the problems, or the person who just did what other people told them to do.

It is a different story when the design have clearly been thought through and are looking for another set of eye to assist with tweaks.

I hope this wasn't taken personally I am just trying to explain where I, and probably other designers are coming from, when we get annoyed in untrained people getting paid to produce inferior work and bring down the whole profession in the process.

I don't see how this is any different than me sitting at a computer helping people with their Mac problems free of charge. Can you explain to me how this is different? I have saved people a lot of money in tech support charges by giving them free support here and on dozens of other websites. Support that I learned from my training, and from being on the job. Should we all just adopt that attitude of "well I paid for college and you didn't so go help yourself or pay me"? Or is this some designer thing I just don't get.

arkitect
Jun 29, 2009, 01:27 PM
Well I'll be sure the next time someone asks me for computer help on these forums to first ask if they have any training. If not, I will rip on them a bit and then belittle them then tell them no. Sound good?

If that floats your boat then go for it.

My friends have many times been fixing someone's system for pay and they come to me for assistance. I don't ask for a chunk of the change. I don't tout my training or years of on-the-job experience. I instead help them if I can otherwise say I can't because I don't know how. The whole "paying your dues" excuse is stupid. Sorry, but it is.
It doesn't all come down just to "training" and "paying your dues" as you quaintly put it.
Or do you think it's a case of "You pays yer money and *boom* yourra designah"?

Comparing design — whether it be architecture, graphic, product etcetera — with doing a computer course and repairing a computer (most likely with the manufacturer's repair manual at hand) is not the same thing. ;)

I don't see how this is any different than me sitting at a computer helping people with their Mac problems free of charge. Can you explain to me how this is different?

The biggest difference is that those people with the faulty computer aren't actually telling you that they *know* how to repair it, do they? And then tell you "oh, yaah, that is so easy, anyone can do that."
Do they? ;)
That is what p*sses a lot of people off.

LeviG
Jun 29, 2009, 01:33 PM
Yes. That is why I am coming to you. I have no formal training and you do. I want your opinion. And suggestions. NOT you to make a logo for me. That's not what I'm looking for. I am trying to gain experience. So, no I didn't come on here and say that I wanted you to make me a logo. That is the whole reason for people doing the training, we learn about the basics of the field which you've never received. And anyways, you SHOULD know this, its the client who decides on a final design, not a designer :eek:

Have you actually done ANY of the things that I've mentioned earlier, researched to make sure none of your designs are breaking copyright/trademarks or done any sort of brainstorming BEFORE starting doing the designs?

I want your opinion. I don't know how else to say that. It seems like you guys take offense to people who are starting out and haven't taken design classes yet.
As I've said there is a reason we take the classes, you are lacking several of the fundamentals in you designs (I've already commented on them earlier), you even ripped off one of the most iconic british logos and didn't seem to realise.

uberamd
Jun 29, 2009, 01:34 PM
If that floats your boat then go for it.


It doesn't all come down just to "training" and "paying your dues" as you quaintly put it.
Or do you think it's a case of "You pays yer money and *boom* yourra designah"?

Comparing design — whether it be architecture, graphic, product etcetera — with doing a computer course and repairing a computer (most likely with the manufacturer's repair manual at hand) is not the same thing. ;)

Lets talk about the high level programming assistance I provide on forums, free of charge. Are you indicating that my skills are lesser than your graphical skills? My point is that he was simply asking for help. And if someone asks me for programming help, I help if I can. If I don't want to, I don't. But I don't say I have paid $X,000 for my college programming classes and until you do so I refuse to help you.

I guess thats where we differ. The programming community is a very open, helpful community. I suppose the same can't be said about graphic designers. A lesson learned.

arkitect
Jun 29, 2009, 01:39 PM
Lets talk about the high level programming assistance I provide on forums, free of charge. Are you indicating that my skills are lesser than your graphical skills? My point is that he was simply asking for help. And if someone asks me for programming help, I help if I can. If I don't want to, I don't. But I don't say I have paid $X,000 for my college programming classes and until you do so I refuse to help you.

You seem to be taking this thing very personally… perhaps a lingering memory of… oh I don't know.
*shrug*
I don't say I have paid $X,000 for my college programming classes and until you do so I refuse to help you.
And neither do we… in fact if you care to *read* you'll see on other threads we 'nasty" designers actually do help.
Lets talk about the high level programming assistance I provide on forums, free of charge. Are you indicating that my skills are lesser than your graphical skills?
No. I didn't say your "high level programming assistance (you) provide on forums, free of charge are are lesser than (my) graphical skills."
I am only pointing out that while it is both exemplary and admirable of you to be so helpful, you are comparing apples and oranges.

Dal123
Jun 29, 2009, 01:46 PM
MacDaddy Don't worry too much mate. The hostility is a bit of jealousy. I studied two years college for graphic design, got a BTEC National Diploma in Graphic Design. It was the biggest waste of two years of my life. Was going to study for a degree but there was those studying for a degree HND in graphics and the work they were doing was not much better.I went to a good school and learnt far more about graphics there from a great teacher, with far better facilities.
I think the reason for the hostility is jealousy! You have already got a nice little job, freelance. Why do you need training of basic skills like typography, margin lines, co-ordinating colours (All a matter of taste and basic common sense). Sure you will come against a few problems with file types, but you'll pick this up yourself, and a few posts on here.
Bottom line is it's mostly about taste! You won't learn that much studying. You're better off getting your own work freelance. Pay is extremely poor for the first few years and not that great after! I found it is a glamorized game. I went into construction and just starting to get my own work now with my own company and like to do the graphics for my company for fun.
These people have really jumped out of their prams! Nothing much helpful has been said apart from a few decent comments. What relevance does your logo have to the field it's being used :rolleyes: what relevance does the london underground have to itself:D. What relevance does bt's logo have:p (you could say he's calling on the horn lol, but it really isn't that relevant) What relevance does the special K logo symbol have to do with a healty breakfast cereal. These are some of the biggest logo's out there. You can think of a million more Sony ericsson's logo.
Jealousy is their problem!

uberamd
Jun 29, 2009, 01:46 PM
Okay then, I'm going to pass on giving you any help. Come back when you have some kind of formal training or (a lot of) professional experience. I can't support anyone who does design work for pay when they haven't paid their dues. It undermines the industry and makes it more difficult for those of us (who have paid our dues) to make a living. What you are asking is ridiculous. You don't know what you are doing, so you come on here to have others tell you what you need. Are you going to split the money with everyone who helps you? Eh, I didn't think so. You're just using this opportunity to make a quick buck and take advantage of your neighbor.

I have never responded to anyone with that kind of attitude when asking for help.

No offence intended here but you have to remember that most of the designers who do this for a living on here have atleast some kind of training and have most likely gained some sort of debt from said training. And your 'help' would also cost money in any business too.
And I gained debt from college but that doesn't mean I refuse to help people when needed.
You seem to be taking this thing very personally… perhaps a lingering memory of… oh I don't know.
*shrug*

I am only pointing out that while it is both exemplary and admirable of you to be so helpful, you are comparing apples and oranges.

I guess I don't see it as comparing apples to oranges (I wanted to capitalize the word apple since I am so used to doing so on every other post here :) ). I offer support when I can in my field, contribute to no-profit open source projects, and do whatever else without expecting a dime in return. Maybe its a karma thing, who knows.

But I will bow out now, like I said I learned something today that I was unaware of before. Lets just leave it at that.

SwiftLives
Jun 29, 2009, 01:51 PM
OP - you made a good faith effort to show us your work before you asked for our help. I can appreciate that. You asked for guidance, rather than for us to do all of the work for you. Again, I can appreciate that.

It's when someone asks for help without showing any indication that he has done any of the initial work himself that I have problems.

As far as novice graphic design logos go, I have seen much worse. However, the concepts you've shown us are far from perfect. There's not much I can add to the existing critiques.

I do encourage you to post your revised concepts and any new concepts, sketches, or explorations you'd like to share. Most of us will be happy to help.

------------------------------------------

The unwritten rule I've been abiding by in regards to offering help on the design forums is this: If someone is willing to show a good-faith effort on a design project - specifically the initial conceptual work - then I will help. Otherwise, I will snark.

Why do you need training of basic skills like typography, margin lines, co-ordinating colours (All a matter of taste and basic common sense). Sure you will come against a few problems with file types, but you'll pick this up yourself, and a few posts on here.
Bottom line is it's mostly about taste! You won't learn that much studying. You're better off getting your own work freelance. Pay is extremely poor for the first few years and not that great after! I found it is a glamorized game.

Did...did you just say that you won't learn much by studying graphic design?

And then did you say that the pay is really poor?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you fail to see any connection between those two comments.

I'm very disappointed that "good design" to you is based solely upon whether or not a client likes the work. If that's your attitude, then perhaps design work is not a viable career for you.

bbeers
Jun 29, 2009, 02:02 PM
I don't see how this is any different than me sitting at a computer helping people with their Mac problems free of charge. Can you explain to me how this is different? I have saved people a lot of money in tech support charges by giving them free support here and on dozens of other websites. Support that I learned from my training, and from being on the job. Should we all just adopt that attitude of "well I paid for college and you didn't so go help yourself or pay me"? Or is this some designer thing I just don't get.

Do you have every Joe Somebody being payed to do your job just because they can draw and have a computer?

I don't know how to explain this well other that to say that currently there are people who are flooding our industry and bring the industry down as a whole. So many people think that they can be designers, but lack the very basic fundamentals that are required to do the job professionally and correctly. I don't know how to liken it to your profession. I don't know if I can get you to relate other than say it is like someone coming in before you to fix a mac problem and messes things up more. Now you have to come in and the client doesn't want to pay that much because they already paid some one to do the work. Now you have to work on the cheap and not only that but you have to fix their problems before you can start fixing the whole problem.

I am commend you for helping people with their mac problems, That is truly a great help and service you provide. I just personally feel that creative professionals often times get undermined and overlooked, because "I could do that"

Dal123
Jun 29, 2009, 02:10 PM
OP

It's when someone asks for help without showing any indication that he has done any of the initial work himself that I have problems.

------------------------------------------



So unless someone has studied for a formal qualification they don't deserve to have a go at graphic design! And it's blatantly obvious he has done the initial work himself! Only he hasn't learnt a few hours in a measly college so he cannot call himself a designer!
All I am saying is that it IS mostly about taste. And in England with Graphic Design; it is generally poor pay in comparisson to most other jobs! I'm not denying that there will be a few firms paying their top designers £100,000. However most outfits only pay £30,000. In England that is around average. It's not spectacular.

The guy is only asking for a little advice! So you think you can talk down to him because you have a meaningless qualification.

MacDaddy901
Jun 29, 2009, 02:12 PM
Wow. If most of the designers are as hostile and selfish as they are here then I might not want to go into this field. I though you guys could give me some good help, a step in the right direction. But I guess I was wrong. You would think that I was personally taking all of your work.

I'm sorry I asked for some opinions but obviously I won't be getting any. Only belittled because I haven't taken design courses and haven't been in the business for years. And I don't live anywhere near London and I've never seen that logo. So I didn't copy it.

So I'm scared to post these and ask for and opinion, but maybe there are some generous people out their who don't think their opinion is worth money. And by the way, I'm getting $20 for this.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2nkooev.jpg

SwiftLives
Jun 29, 2009, 02:12 PM
bbeers - Valid points.

But I'm a much much better designer than any half-wit who things that a copy of Publisher, MS Paint, and a piece of clip art from Google makes him a designer.

And my work shows that.

Frankly, I don't want to do business with a client who is unable or unwilling to see the difference. (In my experience, they don't tend to pay much and are significantly more trouble than they're worth.)

My advice is this: Develop an ego. I'm not saying that you need to become an arrogant twat. You just need to tell yourself that you're a good designer. You'd be very surprised what you can sell to a client with a little bit of confidence.

I don't sweat the novices undercutting me and taking food off my table quite like I used to.

arkitect
Jun 29, 2009, 02:12 PM
So you think you can talk down to him because you have a meaningless qualification.
Wow. Pardon me if I say you come across just a tad bitter…
What did happen at that college of yours? :eek:

Dal123
Jun 29, 2009, 02:19 PM
Lol you think I'm being bitter. Read the posts. It seems majority are bitter on here because someone without a qualification :rolleyes: is designing a logo. Everyone thinks they are out of a job :D so funny.

SwiftLives
Jun 29, 2009, 02:34 PM
Okay. Moving back to the original concept of this thread...

MacDaddy901 - Lose the color. For the time being, you should concentrate on form, not on color. As others have said, color is secondary.

I like where you're going with your latest design - the first aid cross in the "O" makes a lot of sense. I do think it needs to be bigger and bolder, as it does not come across as deliberate at the moment, nor does it look like the first aid cross.

Why is the baseline of "growth" flush with the bottom of the black box? For that matter, why do you need the reversed out text? Why do you need the small caps? Why that particular typeface?

While everything you do doesn't necessarily have to have a reason, it does need to be deliberate. And you need to be able to explain questions such as I've posed to your client. Or at least come up with a complete BS answer on the spot.

Keep exploring. Your work has a lot of potential.

Last bit of advice - keep it simple. Lines and boxes and reversed text aren't necessary to make a good logo.

bbeers
Jun 29, 2009, 02:51 PM
But I'm a much much better designer than any half-wit who things that a copy of Publisher, MS Paint, and a piece of clip art from Google makes him a designer.

And my work shows that.
As am I, but sometimes potential clients don't go past the.. so and son has a kid who can do it cheap, or so on.

Frankly, I don't want to do business with a client who is unable or unwilling to see the difference. (In my experience, they don't tend to pay much and are significantly more trouble than they're worth.)
I can agree with that most of the time. But sometime you do need to take what ever you can get to feed the little mouths. And I will always take an underpaid job to no job at all in that respect.

MacDaddy901
Jun 29, 2009, 03:05 PM
SwiftLives. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That is all I wanted.

THX1139
Jun 29, 2009, 03:32 PM
Wow. If most of the designers are as hostile and selfish as they are here then I might not want to go into this field...

And by the way, I'm getting $20 for this.


No, actually designers are usually a bunch of friendly people. We just don't like it when someone comes along and acts as a poser saying that they are doing a particular "design" because it's a great chance to make some big money- then asks us to help them do it. I spend a lot of time helping others who are pursuing design. But if they don't have the basics down and seem to be unwilling to devote time to learning those basics, well.. I have an aversion to that because it cheapens the industry. An industry that I'm pretty protective of and have spent thousands of hours learning.

And for the record, I'm NOT jealous that you are making money. The feeling is better described as frustration for what you are asking help with. If you would have come here with some tight designs and needed some crit to finish them off, I would have willingly helped. But then again, you don't listen to advice that is given... so maybe not.

For those of you who don't agree and think I'm being too harsh, well then you have no respect for what designers have to learn to be good at what we do. You can go anywhere and pickup a book on programming and teach yourself. Not so easy to do with design. Design requires multiple disciplines in order to be any good. Art history, design history, math, writing, color-theory, print production and pre-press, interface design, typography, photography, architecture, drawing skills, grid, proportion, gestalt theory, etc. Then there are all of the programs that you need to become expert at. Yeah, some of you "designers" want to skip directly over the fundamentals and go right into Photoshop/Illustrator because you think that is where the magic happens. That is what the OP appears to have done and I spotted it right away.

So, what's wrong with helping someone in his situation? Well, let's say he gets hired by a business for a measly $20, of which is is willing to take because he is "just getting started." Next, he creates/copies a few designs and then come here to have us fix them. Some of you generous people give him advice and maybe he manages to come out with something decent and takes them to the client who uses them in their business. Well that's okay, right? NO! First off, you have managed to devalue logo design to $20 and that has a slight ripple effect over the industry. Secondly, you have created a logo for the OPs portfolio that he can maybe use to get another (cheap) job from a (cheap) client and so it goes on and on. It reminds me of outsourcing!

I'll end this by saying that I'm sorry if I offended anyone. However, I won't make apologies for my feeling about what it takes to be a graphic designer. I have invested too much money, too many over-nighters, and endless hours of harsh crit to make apologies for an industry that I love.

Gelfin
Jun 29, 2009, 03:33 PM
Lets talk about the high level programming assistance I provide on forums, free of charge. Are you indicating that my skills are lesser than your graphical skills? My point is that he was simply asking for help. And if someone asks me for programming help, I help if I can. If I don't want to, I don't. But I don't say I have paid $X,000 for my college programming classes and until you do so I refuse to help you.

I guess thats where we differ. The programming community is a very open, helpful community. I suppose the same can't be said about graphic designers. A lesson learned.

Try that same programming community, though, by going in and saying, "I have this great idea for an iPhone app. Tell me how to make it." You'll see the same negative reaction.

The difference is that the barrier to entry for design is very low, so you get more the equivalent of somebody who comes into a programming forum with a piece of code composed primarily of chewing gum and happy thoughts asking why it doesn't work.

We are all prone to getting a little testy when someone seems to deeply underestimate the complexity involved in skills we've spent years honing. Trying to kickstart them into operating at their own level so that they can appreciate the task before them and grow into it normally is always going to feel a little abusive even when done with the best of intentions.

OP, if I were trying to become better at logo design, what I would probably do is go and start entering every Worth1000 Free Logo Contest (http://www.worth1000.com/cdir.asp?display=jackpot&filter=f.format_id=4) I could make time for. Be sure to check that you want feedback. Be sure to follow the rules, as they are serious about rejecting those that don't conform. Over time, you should start getting a feel for your weaknesses through feedback, and your strengths by observing what efforts result in higher scores.

bbeers
Jun 29, 2009, 04:01 PM
So I'm scared to post these and ask for and opinion, but maybe there are some generous people out their who don't think their opinion is worth money. And by the way, I'm getting $20 for this.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2nkooev.jpg

I agree with SwiftLives, and feel that this is headed in a much better direction. Have you tried other type choices. I am not feeling feeling that type, is it Antenna Regular? maybe something like a flared-sans or just a different san-serif.

bbeers
Jun 29, 2009, 04:09 PM
No, actually designers are usually a bunch of friendly people. We just don't like it when someone comes along and acts as a poser saying that they are doing a particular "design" because it's a great chance to make some big money- then asks us to help them do it. I spend a lot of time helping others who are pursuing design. But if they don't have the basics down and seem to be unwilling to devote time to learning those basics, well.. I have an aversion to that because it cheapens the industry. An industry that I'm pretty protective of and have spent thousands of hours learning.

And for the record, I'm NOT jealous that you are making money. The feeling is better described as frustration for what you are asking help with. If you would have come here with some tight designs and needed some crit to finish them off, I would have willingly helped. But then again, you don't listen to advice that is given... so maybe not.

For those of you who don't agree and think I'm being too harsh, well then you have no respect for what designers have to learn to be good at what we do. You can go anywhere and pickup a book on programming and teach yourself. Not so easy to do with design. Design requires multiple disciplines in order to be any good. Art history, design history, math, writing, color-theory, print production and pre-press, interface design, typography, photography, architecture, drawing skills, grid, proportion, gestalt theory, etc. Then there are all of the programs that you need to become expert at. Yeah, some of you "designers" want to skip directly over the fundamentals and go right into Photoshop/Illustrator because you think that is where the magic happens. That is what the OP appears to have done and I spotted it right away.

So, what's wrong with helping someone in his situation? Well, let's say he gets hired by a business for a measly $20, of which is is willing to take because he is "just getting started." Next, he creates/copies a few designs and then come here to have us fix them. Some of you generous people give him advice and maybe he manages to come out with something decent and takes them to the client who uses them in their business. Well that's okay, right? NO! First off, you have managed to devalue logo design to $20 and that has a slight ripple effect over the industry. Secondly, you have created a logo for the OPs portfolio that he can maybe use to get another (cheap) job from a (cheap) client and so it goes on and on. It reminds me of outsourcing!

I'll end this by saying that I'm sorry if I offended anyone. However, I won't make apologies for my feeling about what it takes to be a graphic designer. I have invested too much money, too many over-nighters, and endless hours of harsh crit to make apologies for an industry that I love.

Thanks you for being so much more articulate than I am. I completely agree with you. I wish the industry would pick up a licensing. Something that would allow designers to demonstrate they have the basic concepts of design under there belt. Some kind of written test, nothing based off quality, leave that for the portfolio, but something that will allow the client to know exactly what to expect. This way we can increase the design world as a whole.

mwchris
Jun 29, 2009, 04:12 PM
No, actually designers are usually a bunch of friendly people. We just don't like it when someone comes along and acts as a poser saying that they are doing a particular "design" because it's a great chance to make some big money- then asks us to help them do it. I spend a lot of time helping others who are pursuing design. But if they don't have the basics down and seem to be unwilling to devote time to learning those basics, well.. I have an aversion to that because it cheapens the industry. An industry that I'm pretty protective of and have spent thousands of hours learning.

How is he a poser? You mean you never once did any type of art prior to COMPLETING your degree? Reading that previous statement, and other "designer" threads here makes me think of something . . . "One bad apple spoils the bunch"

And for the record, I'm NOT jealous that you are making money. The feeling is better described as frustration for what you are asking help with. If you would have come here with some tight designs and needed some crit to finish them off, I would have willingly helped. But then again, you don't listen to advice that is given... so maybe not.

So because his designs did not fit your opinion of "tight" he shouldn't ask for help? Sure looks like he put forth effort to me, probably spending hours of time, which I'm sure would have taken you minutes with your formal training and all . . .

For those of you who don't agree and think I'm being too harsh, well then you have no respect for what designers have to learn to be good at what we do. You can go anywhere and pickup a book on programming and teach yourself. Not so easy to do with design. Design requires multiple disciplines in order to be any good. Art history, design history, math, writing, color-theory, print production and pre-press, interface design, typography, photography, architecture, drawing skills, grid, proportion, gestalt theory, etc. Then there are all of the programs that you need to become expert at. Yeah, some of you "designers" want to skip directly over the fundamentals and go right into Photoshop/Illustrator because you think that is where the magic happens. That is what the OP appears to have done and I spotted it right away.

Again, way to represent your fellow "designers". I would not want to be lumped into "your" group . . . You say that design is so complex and that you can't be self taught . . . that's a load of crap! MOST artistic people have it in them well before they have taken any formal course work. Sure they learn a few design elements here and there, but don't even try to tell me that to be a "designer" you have to have taken part in some serious formal training.

So, what's wrong with helping someone in his situation? Well, let's say he gets hired by a business for a measly $20, of which is is willing to take because he is "just getting started." Next, he creates/copies a few designs and then come here to have us fix them. Some of you generous people give him advice and maybe he manages to come out with something decent and takes them to the client who uses them in their business. Well that's okay, right? NO! First off, you have managed to devalue logo design to $20 and that has a slight ripple effect over the industry. Secondly, you have created a logo for the OPs portfolio that he can maybe use to get another (cheap) job from a (cheap) client and so it goes on and on. It reminds me of outsourcing!

So what!? Would you rather him be making $200, or $2,000, or $20,000?? Of course not because then you would attack him because he has no formal training. It is just crazy for someone who has no formal training, and not spent X number of dollars, and X number of hours to produce an image a client may like and pay for . . .I'm sure no one has ever helped you do anything, let alone anything that you received some sort of "payment" for. :rolleyes:

I'll end this by saying that I'm sorry if I offended anyone. However, I won't make apologies for my feeling about what it takes to be a graphic designer. I have invested too much money, too many over-nighters, and endless hours of harsh crit to make apologies for an industry that I love.

You might want to add that you are sorry for insulting other "designers" by displaying such a poor attitude . . . I'm sorry that you are insulted by someone who has some artistic ability without having such formal training, regardless of whether it meets yours, or industry "standards". I believe the saying is something like "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" . . . As long as he likes it and the client likes AND he is ok with getting $20 for it, so what!?!?!


The "I got mine, go earn yours attitude" has got to stop! If you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all!


To the OP, nice job! I agree with many of the others comments of making sure you have some sort of purpose, and be sure it is something that is recognizable to the client and general public. For example show it to someone else and see if they can figure out what the company does or something like that . . . Keep up the hard work and ignore the the helpless!

Spanky Deluxe
Jun 29, 2009, 04:17 PM
Wow. If most of the designers are as hostile and selfish as they are here then I might not want to go into this field. I though you guys could give me some good help, a step in the right direction. But I guess I was wrong. You would think that I was personally taking all of your work.

I'm sorry I asked for some opinions but obviously I won't be getting any. Only belittled because I haven't taken design courses and haven't been in the business for years. And I don't live anywhere near London and I've never seen that logo. So I didn't copy it.

So I'm scared to post these and ask for and opinion, but maybe there are some generous people out their who don't think their opinion is worth money. And by the way, I'm getting $20 for this.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2nkooev.jpg

That's pretty darned good actually for a beginner. I'd have a look at some other fonts though - personally I'd want the 'o' in 'Growth' to be a perfect circle, which it isn't in this font.

For what it's worth, I know a fairly successful graphic designer with some pretty high profile clients. He never had any 'formal' training, just had he desire to create inside him. In my experience, designers tend to dislike other designers - probably largely due to differing tastes in design and looks. Programmers on the other hand usually are aiming at solving a problem or getting a job done and so are more friendly towards one another. :)

Keep up the good work and once you're finished with this logo, play around doing logos for other things even if they're not jobs so as to practice. :)

mwchris
Jun 29, 2009, 04:20 PM
Thanks you for being so much more articulate than I am. I completely agree with you. I wish the industry would pick up a licensing. Something that would allow designers to demonstrate they have the basic concepts of design under there belt. Some kind of written test, nothing based off quality, leave that for the portfolio, but something that will allow the client to know exactly what to expect. This way we can increase the design world as a whole.


How is it any different to any other profession? Should all professions require a test? Your "Certification" is your portfolio, client references/referrals, etc. etc.

You say you don't want a test based off of quality, but yet want something that will allow the client to expect? I believe what I previously mentioned will do just that.

There are plenty of "self-taught" artists out there that do just fine, and do not degrade the "design" community, but perhaps make better.

Just because someone took part in formal training and paid money for it does not make them an expert or necessarily any better than someone who has not done the same.

Get over yourselves!

Designer Dale
Jun 29, 2009, 04:28 PM
Hi.

I've posted bad design here and been hit hard by the pros. I learned to not take it personally and separate the comments from the criticism. The main thing I learned in a short time was to start working on a small pallet. You seem to be working on a 9.5 inch US space, and that is not good for something that will be most used on a business card. You first stated that you liked the third and have since revamped the first. Here are what they look like at business card size.

Dale

THX1139
Jun 29, 2009, 04:47 PM
Thanks you for being so much more articulate than I am. I completely agree with you. I wish the industry would pick up a licensing. Something that would allow designers to demonstrate they have the basic concepts of design under there belt. Some kind of written test, nothing based off quality, leave that for the portfolio, but something that will allow the client to know exactly what to expect. This way we can increase the design world as a whole.

Thanks. It's good to know that someone understands what I'm trying to convey. The difference of opinion reminds me of Obama vs McCain. You can't sway on side to the other. What I would be interested to see is whether there are any established designers (who have reputable degrees) who disagree with my position. I suspect that the defenders of the OP are NOT graphic designers.

I agree that the industry needs to push for accreditation of some sort. There has been some discussion of having some kind of sponsorship through AIGA, but that was awhile ago so I don't know what became of that. The way to get qualified could be through a certain amount of work experience (test), or a 4 year degree through a qualified school. Of course that wouldn't stop amateurs from designing, or businesses from hiring them. But it would go along way towards legitimizing the industry and separating those who have put in their dues in from those who haven't. That would also give room to help people as they are trying to learn the trade. If you were a first timer needing a bit of help, I would definitely be down for that if they were a part of an apprenticeship for certification. Of course, there would probably be rules that didn't allow for doing $20 logos while you are still learning. ;)

THX1139
Jun 29, 2009, 05:10 PM
How is it any different to any other profession? Should all professions require a test? Your "Certification" is your portfolio, client references/referrals, etc. etc.

You say you don't want a test based off of quality, but yet want something that will allow the client to expect? I believe what I previously mentioned will do just that.

There are plenty of "self-taught" artists out there that do just fine, and do not degrade the "design" community, but perhaps make better.

Just because someone took part in formal training and paid money for it does not make them an expert or necessarily any better than someone who has not done the same.

Get over yourselves!

Wow dude, way to take the whole conversation out of context! First off, no one here (or at least I didn't) say anything bad about a self-taught designer who put their dues in. I don't think anyone is going to minimize a person who spent countless hours learning how to do decent design on their own (before selling their services). However, I do believe that formal training almost always improve design skills if you are willing to learn and go to a good school (or internship). What I was trying to convey in my posts is when someone who has little or no experience SELLS his services, then comes on to a forum like this to have people help him finish what he couldn't do with the basics. There are more ethical ways to teach yourself if that is the way you want to go, or can't afford an education.

And for what it's worth... there is quite a difference between "Artist" and "Designer." Designer is far more technical of a vocation. Of course, how would you know that?

You are the one who needs to "get over" yourself.

Okay, I'm done with this thread. You all have fun designing the logo. Make sure the OP sends you a dollar for helping out.

MacDaddy901
Jun 29, 2009, 05:11 PM
Thanks. It's good to know that someone understands what I'm trying to convey. The difference of opinion reminds me of Obama vs McCain. You can't sway on side to the other. What I would be interested to see is whether there are any established designers (who have reputable degrees) who disagree with my position. I suspect that the defenders of the OP are NOT graphic designers.

So what you just said is "Is there anyone out there who has the same exact viewpoint as me, disagree with me?". Ill answers that for you, probably not a whole lot. Especially since established to you obviously means you have a college degree. My uncle is an "established" web designer and hasn't ever been to college.

There are people that could go to college for 4 years, take all of the classes you mentioned, and still be absolutely terrible at graphic design. My brother's fiance went to 4 years studying interior design and can't get a good paying job. Why? Because she sucks at interior design.

Does getting a degree hurt. No, I'm not saying that. But saying that graphic design is something that can be learned through books, is insane. You have it, or you don't. Creativity can't be taught.

Wow dude, way to take the whole conversation out of context! First off, no one here (or at least I didn't) say anything bad about a self-taught designer who put their dues in. I don't think anyone is going to minimize a person who spent countless hours learning how to do decent design on their own (before selling their services). However, I do believe that formal training almost always improve design skills if you are willing to learn and go to a good school (or internship). What I was trying to convey in my posts is when someone who has little or no experience SELLS his services, then comes on to a forum like this to have people help him finish what he couldn't do with the basics. There are more ethical ways to teach yourself if that is the way you want to go, or can't afford an education.

And for what it's worth... there is quite a difference between "Artist" and "Designer." Designer is far more technical of a vocation. Of course, how would you know that?

I never "SOLD" my services. I never went and pursued this person to pay me. I didn't advertise my skills, because right now, I am a novice at this, and all I was SIMPLY trying to do what get someone elses opinion of my work. Not have it done for me, not have someone else make me one, but give me YOUR thoughts on MY work. But obviously you would like me to already be a professional to get your advice or pay you.

So I'll send you the dollar, because it sounds like you need it way more than I do.

bbeers
Jun 29, 2009, 05:24 PM
How is it any different to any other profession? Should all professions require a test? Your "Certification" is your portfolio, client references/referrals, etc. etc.

You say you don't want a test based off of quality, but yet want something that will allow the client to expect? I believe what I previously mentioned will do just that.

There are plenty of "self-taught" artists out there that do just fine, and do not degrade the "design" community, but perhaps make better.

Just because someone took part in formal training and paid money for it does not make them an expert or necessarily any better than someone who has not done the same.

Get over yourselves!

A lot of other industries have or require certification, why should graphic design be any different. And the test I would like to see would test for design concepts, it would have nothing to do with formal training at all. I don't care if someone has formal training or is just naturally talented towards design, as long as the work that comes out follow some basic design principles.

And for every self taught artist that improve the community, because I do agree there are plenty out there, there are more that hurt it.

I am sorry if you don't see this or can't except it, but some people went through the trouble of working hard and studying their chosen field to become a designer and feel cheapened when a random joe comes along with publisher and tries to call themselves a designer.

Muncher
Jun 29, 2009, 05:27 PM
So what you just said is "Is there anyone out there who has the same exact viewpoint as me, disagree with me?". Ill answers that for you, probably not a whole lot. Especially since established to you obviously means you have a college degree. My uncle is an "established" web designer and hasn't ever been to college.

There are people that could go to college for 4 years, take all of the classes you mentioned, and still be absolutely terrible at graphic design. My brother's fiance went to 4 years studying interior design and can't get a good paying job. Why? Because she sucks at interior design.

Does getting a degree hurt. No, I'm not saying that. But saying that graphic design is something that can be learned through books, is insane. You have it, or you don't. Creativity can't be taught.

Look, it's not worth arguing. There are people here who are willing to give you some advice, don't bother with the others. No, creativity can't be taught. In fact, I really dislike art classes. I've had some basic formal instruction in Graphic Design, and I can say that the only truly core idea I picked up on (other than using that demonic Illustrator pen tool :mad::rolleyes::D) was mindset. You just need to find what the company/person/entity you're designing logos for is, and represent that well.

One the other hand, I do see the point of some of the designers here. They would be more helpful if your design was closer to completion. Instead, they find it frustrating that you're asking such elementary questions.

My advice for your logo: I think it would be better without the subtle emboss/drop shadow. Also, the plus should be thicker. The font is good, but I feel like the bottoms of the letters are cut off, and looking at it I can't tell whether that's intentional. Either way, it bothers me. Good work for a beginner though!

mwchris
Jun 29, 2009, 05:29 PM
Wow dude, way to take the whole conversation out of context! First off, no one here (or at least I didn't) say anything bad about a self-taught designer who put their dues in. I don't think anyone is going to minimize a person who spent countless hours learning how to do decent design on their own (before selling their services). However, I do believe that formal training almost always improve design skills if you are willing to learn and go to a good school (or internship). What I was trying to convey in my posts is when someone who has little or no experience SELLS his services, then comes on to a forum like this to have people help him finish what he couldn't do with the basics. There are more ethical ways to teach yourself if that is the way you want to go, or can't afford an education.

And for what it's worth... there is quite a difference between "Artist" and "Designer." Designer is far more technical of a vocation. Of course, how would you know that?

You are the one who needs to "get over" yourself.

Okay, I'm done with this thread. You all have fun designing the logo. Make sure the OP sends you a dollar for helping out.


There you go again with "putting your dues in". Everything you say is so subjective! His design was not "tight" enough for you. What he is doing is not ethical. And now he hasn't put his "dues" in, how do you know? Art, and design for what it's worth, are all very subjective, so as I previously stated before if the client likes the product, and the artist, or designer do not mind getting $20 for it then what does it matter. Isn't it up to the client in the end?

Also for what it's worth, judging from the first post, his neighbor, or client in this case, sought him out. The neighbor knew the OP had an interest in design and gave him a shot. Perhaps you should work on a better advertising campaign . . .:p

Additionally I'd like to add that I do indeed understand what you mean by saying you don't like when others cheapen the design industry by not charging similiar prices. However, one would be wise to take a look at the current economic outlook and realize that prices are going to drop, not because people don't find value in good workmanship, but simply because they can't afford it. And, again I say, it is all subjective! If a client pays $20 for a design and they like it, why pay $200?

Recently there was a news article where Macy's paid for a new city logo for Cincinnati at a cost of $75,000. Which, in my opinion is quite ugly, no matter what "designer" rules it does or does not follow! (link below) http://www.fox19.com/Global/story.asp?S=10522103


Oh, and I like how you ignored my first response :D

Original poster, keep up the good work! I'll offer any suggestions I can!

gillboyswims96
Jun 29, 2009, 05:30 PM
i like the colored ones nice job ;)

bbeers
Jun 29, 2009, 05:35 PM
There are people that could go to college for 4 years, take all of the classes you mentioned, and still be absolutely terrible at graphic design. My brother's fiance went to 4 years studying interior design and can't get a good paying job. Why? Because she sucks at interior design.

That is what a portfolio is for.


Does getting a degree hurt. No, I'm not saying that. But saying that graphic design is something that can be learned through books, is insane. You have it, or you don't. Creativity can't be taught.
I would say that there is a lot about graphic design that can be learned from a book. There is a whole technical aspect to graphic design that some people just don't know or haven't heard about. And while creativity might not be able to be taught, what can be taught it how to explore the creativity that you do have and how to exploit it to your benefits. School/training teach you so much more than just how to makes things pretty. One of the most important lessons I learned is school is how to take criticism and use it to please the client. Because in the the end that is who is paying.



I never "SOLD" my services. If you are being paid, services are being sold. It doesn't matter who sought out whom.

KeithPratt
Jun 29, 2009, 05:51 PM
Creativity can't be taught.

Design 101.

To the rather unwelcoming critics: not everybody who posts here has the ambition of stealing your work as 'designer extraordinaire'. Some just want to hear somebody tell them their design is decent. You know, to give them a little confidence boost.

Take the designer's cap off for a moment and try being a human being. Let's show a little love.

Spanky Deluxe
Jun 29, 2009, 05:55 PM
A 'designer' that spends $$$$$ on 'training' is worth squat compared to a self-trained designer if he can't give a client what they want. There are plenty of 'highly trained' designers that get paid a lot of money to churn out crap. Its all about giving the client what they want.

After all, someone was paid £400,000 for designing this (http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/06_01/2012LogoPA_228x318.jpg). A logo that even gave people migraines and seizures.

Honestly, so many designers are so far up their own arse that I'm amazed they have any light to see what they're designing. Why care about the 'industry' being 'cheapened' when you're working in a completely different price bracket. Do you really think that someone who wanted to spend $20 on a logo would be willing to spend $$$$ on something from a long standing design pro? Of course not! The successful design folk I know don't care that competitors are cheaper than them - they rely on their work being noticeably better than that of their competitors instead. If a designer is genuinely worried about the profession being 'cheapened' by a newbee with no experience charging a fraction of your usual prices then it might be worth sitting back and working out how to improve your own work.

Muncher
Jun 29, 2009, 06:09 PM
A 'designer' that spends $$$$$ on 'training' is worth squat compared to a self-trained designer if he can't give a client what they want. There are plenty of 'highly trained' designers that get paid a lot of money to churn out crap. Its all about giving the client what they want.

After all, someone was paid £400,000 for designing this (http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/06_01/2012LogoPA_228x318.jpg). A logo that even gave people migraines and seizures.

Honestly, so many designers are so far up their own arse that I'm amazed they have any light to see what they're designing. Why care about the 'industry' being 'cheapened' when you're working in a completely different price bracket. Do you really think that someone who wanted to spend $20 on a logo would be willing to spend $$$$ on something from a long standing design pro? Of course not! The successful design folk I know don't care that competitors are cheaper than them - they rely on their work being noticeably better than that of their competitors instead. If a designer is genuinely worried about the profession being 'cheapened' by a newbee with no experience charging a fraction of your usual prices then it might be worth sitting back and working out how to improve your own work.

Ha! I remember in a design class the teacher used that london logo as an example of everything that could be wrong. I read your description of the logo before opening it and I thought that's what it was going to be. I completely agree with the rest of your post; if a designer isn't worth what he's being paid, regardless of his training, he shouldn't be getting paid that much.

Compile 'em all
Jun 29, 2009, 06:15 PM
No, actually designers are usually a bunch of friendly people. We just don't like it when someone comes along and acts as a poser saying that they are doing a particular "design" because it's a great chance to make some big money- then asks us to help them do it. I spend a lot of time helping others who are pursuing design. But if they don't have the basics down and seem to be unwilling to devote time to learning those basics, well.. I have an aversion to that because it cheapens the industry. An industry that I'm pretty protective of and have spent thousands of hours learning.

And for the record, I'm NOT jealous that you are making money. The feeling is better described as frustration for what you are asking help with. If you would have come here with some tight designs and needed some crit to finish them off, I would have willingly helped. But then again, you don't listen to advice that is given... so maybe not.

For those of you who don't agree and think I'm being too harsh, well then you have no respect for what designers have to learn to be good at what we do. You can go anywhere and pickup a book on programming and teach yourself. Not so easy to do with design. Design requires multiple disciplines in order to be any good. Art history, design history, math, writing, color-theory, print production and pre-press, interface design, typography, photography, architecture, drawing skills, grid, proportion, gestalt theory, etc. Then there are all of the programs that you need to become expert at. Yeah, some of you "designers" want to skip directly over the fundamentals and go right into Photoshop/Illustrator because you think that is where the magic happens. That is what the OP appears to have done and I spotted it right away.

So, what's wrong with helping someone in his situation? Well, let's say he gets hired by a business for a measly $20, of which is is willing to take because he is "just getting started." Next, he creates/copies a few designs and then come here to have us fix them. Some of you generous people give him advice and maybe he manages to come out with something decent and takes them to the client who uses them in their business. Well that's okay, right? NO! First off, you have managed to devalue logo design to $20 and that has a slight ripple effect over the industry. Secondly, you have created a logo for the OPs portfolio that he can maybe use to get another (cheap) job from a (cheap) client and so it goes on and on. It reminds me of outsourcing!


The more you post, the deeper the hole you are digging for yourself in this thread. This elite designer's attitude you got going there is nerving.

techfreak85
Jun 29, 2009, 06:21 PM
i actually like the last one in your first post, but i do have to agree, how does the cymbal correspond with the company/product etc. but keep it up.

DesignerGenes
Jun 29, 2009, 07:32 PM
It is a good start. My main concern is it being too horizontal. If they want to put it on a vertical business card it is going to get real small. Maybe try to arrange it in a more square format...try to visualize it being used in letterhead or on a car door magnet. You could still use the horizontal version, you just need to make sure that both versions, if you choose to have 2, give off the same "feel" and they would still be recognizable.

As others have said, black and white first, then color can be added later.

Try some other fonts in the same format...keep fiddling with it, even when you think that its done.

Heres a great website from David Airey... (http://www.logodesignlove.com/about)

I use it all the time. Its a great resource for inspiration and education.

uberamd
Jun 29, 2009, 08:22 PM
Try that same programming community, though, by going in and saying, "I have this great idea for an iPhone app. Tell me how to make it." You'll see the same negative reaction.

The difference is that the barrier to entry for design is very low, so you get more the equivalent of somebody who comes into a programming forum with a piece of code composed primarily of chewing gum and happy thoughts asking why it doesn't work.

I disagree. He had an example, he was asking for tips! Thats like someone coming in with an algorithm asking if anyone knows how it could be improved. MANY programmers would love to help.
The more you post, the deeper the hole you are digging for yourself in this thread. This elite designer's attitude you got going there is nerving.

My thoughts exactly. And he isn't the only person like this. Many of the designers here have that attitude from what I can tell. Same goes for some designers I have worked with. You can spot them from a mile away, so many have that elitist attitude and an equally bloated ego and give off that "you may be a programmer but thats nothing compared to my design skill" attitude. Its frusturating to say the least. Programmers welcome everyone looking to learn because the more programmers there are, the better software we will all have. Designers get this attitude like every 'new' designer to the scene is going to steal their business or something and this wall of hostility pops up. Stressful dealing with that mindset.

Abstract
Jun 29, 2009, 09:45 PM
I though you guys could give me some good help, a step in the right direction. But I guess I was wrong. You would think that I was personally taking all of your work.


You're coming to people when your work is 50% finished. It's not like it's almost there, and you only need a few eyes to help with the finishing touches. What you're essentially doing is this: Through asking questions, you're going to edit your work, take more of the advice, and just continue until you have something that has had a professional touch on it.

You're going to get this reaction from any field where something needs creativity, and an understanding of fundamentals, to create something that works. This understanding of colours, shapes, and people's perception has come from over a century's worth of observation and research into this type of thing. I know this because my graphic designer friend told me what I was thinking when I saw a particular pattern, and he was pretty spot on. ;)

And no, you can't learn creativity, but this only means that a creative person will become something even better than someone NOT creative, but has had the same learning experiences. Do you really think Michael Jordan always had it in him to become a great basketball player? :confused: Perhaps he did, but not until he learned how to develop skills, how to train, and understood the different offensive and defensive strategies used by different coaches. It wasn't all natural talent.

There's someone else out there who has put in just as much effort, and ended up being a REALLY tall accountant. :p

ezekielrage_99
Jun 29, 2009, 09:52 PM
Sorry to be harsh, but designers study for years to become knowledgeable in their field.

I have studied digital media and design for 5 years and have had over 8 years experience in the industry. IMHO design isn't just learning the software, it's about colour, type, position, layout, etc...

Design is about skill and knowledge. I am not saying it can't be self taught but there needs to be some research.

You need to explore the idea and brand concept behind what you're trying to achieve.

Ask
1) What style best articulates the brand?
2) What would make the concept a unique and memorable one?
3) What colours best identify the business?
4) What font treatment gives the best message and style?

Gelfin
Jun 29, 2009, 10:24 PM
I disagree. He had an example, he was asking for tips! Thats like someone coming in with an algorithm asking if anyone knows how it could be improved. MANY programmers would love to help.

I wasn't addressing this specific OP so much as your rosy view of programming forums, of which I have a much wider experience than design forums. Helpful people abound, but certain kinds of neophytes invariably end up not thinking so.

Honestly, and I'm possibly really about to not make some friends here, sometimes it seems like designers end up with a bit of a complex that might amplify that reaction. I don't actually mean that as a criticism at all, because I think it's a bit justified. Everybody seems to underestimate what goes into good design, and most people seem to think just anybody can sit down and do it, that they shouldn't have to pay money for it and so forth.

Occasionally some short fuses seem to result. If they're more sensitive to the idea of experience-free newbies trying to do pro work right out of the gate than programmers are, it's probably because a lot more of them pop up in this field, and unlike programming, the intricacy of the task doesn't act as its own sieve.

In this thread I've seen what looked like some good criticism and what looked like perhaps a hair-trigger snark response. FWIW, I've seen much worse amateur logo attempts than what the OP has posted, but what do I know?

uberamd
Jun 29, 2009, 10:31 PM
I wasn't addressing this specific OP so much as your rosy view of programming forums, of which I have a much wider experience than design forums. Helpful people abound, but certain kinds of neophytes invariably end up not thinking so.

Honestly, and I'm possibly really about to not make some friends here, sometimes it seems like designers end up with a bit of a complex that might amplify that reaction. I don't actually mean that as a criticism at all, because I think it's a bit justified. Everybody seems to underestimate what goes into good design, and most people seem to think just anybody can sit down and do it, that they shouldn't have to pay money for it and so forth.

Occasionally some short fuses seem to result. If they're more sensitive to the idea of experience-free newbies trying to do pro work right out of the gate than programmers are, it's probably because a lot more of them pop up in this field, and unlike programming, the intricacy of the task doesn't act as its own sieve.

In this thread I've seen what looked like some good criticism and what looked like perhaps a hair-trigger snark response. FWIW, I've seen much worse amateur logo attempts than what the OP has posted, but what do I know?

I guess thats basically what it boils down to. However I think its common for everyone, no matter what the field, to underestimate the complexities of someones job. I think its natural for many people to assume their job is harder, or more complex than someone else's, but the truth behind that is not necessarily that cut and dry.

DesignerGenes
Jun 29, 2009, 10:34 PM
I understand all of the frustration coming from designers about this, but i also understand that you have to start somewhere. Anyone that tries to jump into the field is going to realize that its not easy to be a good designer and that you will need some kind of education. They will try and they will probably fail more than once, thus separating the "men from the boys". Those who really want to pursue will take the necessary steps.

Don't just tell an amateur how to do it, but give them some kind of direction on how to get to where they want to be. I dont think that its a bad thing when someone wants to try it, but say Uncle Leroy comes to your house to fix your water heater...well, several cold showers later, you are going to call a professional plumber.

There are different levels of design, some people aren't looking for award winning work, some just want a newspaper ad for a few thousand people to see. Some designers never get past this point, some do. We all started with some kind of dream to do what it is we do.

THX1139
Jun 29, 2009, 10:35 PM
Sorry to be harsh, but designers study for years to become knowledgeable in their field.

I have studied digital media and design for 5 years and have had over 8 years experience in the industry. IMHO design isn't just learning the software, it's about colour, type, position, layout, etc...

Design is about skill and knowledge. I am not saying it can't be self taught but there needs to be some research.

You need to explore the idea and brand concept behind what you're trying to achieve.

Ask
1) What style best articulates the brand?
2) What would make the concept a unique and memorable one?
3) What colours best identify the business?
4) What font treatment gives the best message and style?

Nice try, but people aren't listening. They can't handle the truth because they think it's coming from elitist designers. I have argued this point but have gotten nowhere but attacked for my point of view. Ha, and they have the nerve to call me elitist!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bkFIPLIOGL8/R4FooVvyCrI/AAAAAAAAHJ4/JwRPavmNIpc/s320/BeatDeadHorse.gif

ezekielrage_99
Jun 29, 2009, 10:48 PM
Nice try, but people aren't listening. They can't handle the truth because they think it's coming from elitist designers. I have argued this point but have gotten nowhere but attacked for my point of view. Ha, and they have the nerve to call me elitist!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bkFIPLIOGL8/R4FooVvyCrI/AAAAAAAAHJ4/JwRPavmNIpc/s320/BeatDeadHorse.gif

I know...

It just gets me how people ask for honest design advice as a professional design then tell you that you're an elitist... Well I know I am put into that category for good reason because I have developed concept from very large brands...

I do understand people want feedback or they are new, however if you can't take critique you just wont last in design... And yes I have had a Creative Director throw my laptop through a window about a bad design, and guess what I was wrong and he was right. Looking back he did turn me into a much better designer and I respect his honesty.

But back to the post....

You need research to make it memorable and a good design, generally I don't use my über fotoshop ninja skills until I am happy with my original sketch.

The following are some very good links for design you might find useful
http://logopond.com/
http://logolounge.com/
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/06/25/10-common-mistakes-in-logo-design/ << Read it

firstjudge
Jun 29, 2009, 11:20 PM
Never before have I seen such a hostile group of people. My goodness. Did all the 'designers' wake up on the wrong side of the bed today or what.

The 'great' Paul Rand did not try to rationalize every element in his logos. I don't agree every line and dot has to convey anything. Logos don't have to tell stories to be successful, and those that try to say too much are also susceptible to failure. What is the message in apple's logo? It's an apple. There is nothing philosophical about it. Just try to keep it simple, make it visually interesting and try to avoid copying others (though it is getting more and more difficult since there are so many logos our in the world)

And yes some designers make me gag with their elitism but it stems from somewhere. Designers are often not appreciated for their craft (mainly by their clients) and many are fighting against graphic design becoming a commodity, so they tend to develop a snobbish attitude and look down on those who do not have their skill and training as "real designers".

To MacDaddy - Just do your best and keep practicing/studying; you have potential.

alphaod
Jun 30, 2009, 12:29 AM
No designer here, but as a consumer, if I can't look at your logo and interpret exactly what needs to be said, the brand isn't something I want. If I have to scan the text and its typeface more than once, then your wasting my time.

Just look at logos from prominent companies—they are usually concise and simplistic, yet say everything that needs to be associated with their brand.

And it seems like your pissed I'm getting paid for doing this. I'm doing this as a favor for someone who is building a website. I just want your opinion.

Getting paid ≠ Doing a favor ;)

sushi
Jun 30, 2009, 10:03 AM
So far this is what I've come up with.

http://i42.tinypic.com/nyiukg.jpg
I like this one the best from an investor's perspective.

I like the subtleness of the run chart and the way the words curve. Nicely done.

I would focus on this one and see how you might improve it.

There are plenty of "self-taught" artists out there that do just fine, and do not degrade the "design" community, but perhaps make better.
That much is certain.

No offense to you designer types, but not everything needs to be artsy fartsy. Sometimes simple and straight to the point is the best.

Oh, and the plus in the circle. That is a definite no no from an "investors" perspective. Too gimmicky. Looks like something Madoff would have done. ;)

No designer here, but as a consumer, if I can't look at your logo and interpret exactly what needs to be said, the brand isn't something I want. If I have to scan the text and its typeface more than once, then your wasting my time.

Just look at logos from prominent companies—they are usually concise and simplistic, yet say everything that needs to be associated with their brand.
Well said.

The key for any design is for it to apply to the industry.

Reminds me of a story if you will allow me. Engineers are a wonderful breed. They can design anything. But sometimes, they forget common sense over technical issues. An example was the original F-16 controls. The stick did not move. Rather it was a pressure sensitive stick. The more pressure the more the airplane responded. Well the test pilots tried it out and found that without feedback to the pilot coming from stick movement the pilot had no idea how much input he was giving the control system.

The result was the control stick was changed so that it moved like a normal one that provided feedback to the pilot. You see, the engineers figured that the static pressure type stick was more accurate and thus would work better. However, they forgot about the pilot and what he needed to fly the aircraft effectively.

Getting back to design. Customers are the key. It has to mean something to them for the design to work. And if it has a bad design for the industry it is going to turn away customers.

BTW, real world example is the Drobo. It won't be selling here in Japan with that name.

Disclosure. I am not a designer. However, I have committed large sums/resources to those who create the designs. :)

jsw
Jun 30, 2009, 10:45 AM
As someone who develops software for a living, I am a bit bothered by the comments that suggest that we programmers don't know what it's like to be in a market flooded by self-taught amateurs who devalue our jobs by providing inferior but less expensive solutions. As someone who has often been affected in one way or another by having labor outsourced to offshore developers with almost no training and with no understanding of how to craft code and whose sole advantage has been their cheap labor, it irks me that providing programming advice to people who are just starting out isn't seen as the same thing as providing design advice to amateurs.

Providing people with no talent with all of the assistance they need to complete a job instead of making them do it themselves isn't good for anyone except the untalented sponge who is using the free assistance to make money. However, providing assistance to someone who is genuinely trying to improve benefits the profession because, with work and some luck, they'll actually get better, do good work that is seen, and so the public maybe won't end up thinking crap work is acceptable work.

I like the version sushi likes, but I have no design talent. It'd be nice if those who do have talent either provide comments to help (which many have done) or didn't comment at all, because all of the "you need to pay your dues" comments come across poorly. Yes, spending time and money on school will make most people better, but often people want to see if they have the base ability and interest to enter the profession, and something like this $20 job is a way to do that.

ETA: These are my opinions as a person, not as a moderator. I'm not saying that no one can comment in a negative way here. I'm just saying it'd be nice, IMHO, to hear less of the "you're not a trained designer" stuff.

SwiftLives
Jun 30, 2009, 01:03 PM
There are some very successful designers out there who have fallen bass-ackwards into the profession without any formal training.

David Carson comes to mind. Love him, hate him, really hate him, or vehemently hate him, he pretty much singlehandedly changed typography the way we know it.

I fall into the "vehemently hate him" camp. I don't even consider him a good designer. But I can't deny that he's successful. Damnit.

Rt&Dzine
Jun 30, 2009, 01:05 PM
No offense to you designer types, but not everything needs to be artsy fartsy. Sometimes simple and straight to the point is the best.

No offense taken, but as a designer type I prefer simple and to the point. Unfortunately many clients want cluttered designs with overuse of color and special effects. They freak out if they see any white space. :eek:

In general, I really value the opinions from non-designers of my work. I often like to get their input before submitting a design.

kymac
Jun 30, 2009, 02:55 PM
No offense to you designer types, but not everything needs to be artsy fartsy.

most of us were trying to get him to remove the unnecessary elements.. a lot of the parts had no meaning to it. but sure, call it artsy fartsy

Muncher
Jun 30, 2009, 03:41 PM
There are some very successful designers out there who have fallen bass-ackwards into the profession without any formal training.

David Carson comes to mind. Love him, hate him, really hate him, or vehemently hate him, he pretty much singlehandedly changed typography the way we know it.

I fall into the "vehemently hate him" camp. I don't even consider him a good designer. But I can't deny that he's successful. Damnit.

It happens in every industry: Steve Jobs/Bill Gates in the OS industry, Shigeru Miyamoto with Nintendo, who shaped gaming forever.

ezekielrage_99
Jun 30, 2009, 07:55 PM
You can say it about many professionals although they didn't have a traditional education they still acquired the knowledge about their field of interest.

It wasn't a fact where the likes of Jobs woke up one morning as just decided to "make a computer", it's an unrealistic comparison... They did research and became learned in their chose field either by finding things out themselves or following the more traditional means of education.

With any good professional (not just talking design) they make it look easy, when they do that people generally think it's easy to do.

It's the debate of Chef vs. Cook, there are Cooks who are better than Chefs and visa versa but I would never call a Cook a Chef (especially around a Chef).

NoSmokingBandit
Jun 30, 2009, 08:15 PM
And yes I have had a Creative Director throw my laptop through a window about a bad design
...
and I respect his honesty.


Theres a difference between being honest and being an ass.
It seems some people here dont understand this.

ezekielrage_99
Jun 30, 2009, 08:54 PM
Theres a difference between being honest and being an ass.
It seems some people here dont understand this.

Although I agree with honest vs the *******-factor, this is the design industry, it's full of people with over-inflated sense of worth and egotism. It's like art from that respect.

What I learned from that experience is there's a right way and wrong way to deal with people and design is about proving your "creative judgement" is best way of articulating an idea.

Look at the god-awful London logo, was it designed well? The answer is a simple yes it was it completely fulfilled the design brief and had the holy grail "water cooler factor" (e.g. everyone was talking about it). Did I like it NO, but to date it's still one of the most "successful" logos due to the fact it's recognisable so I cannot argue the success Wolf Olins went for in the design...

IMHO alphaod said it the best, a logo is about communicating a message and enticing people to buy (and keep buying) your products/services.

The box version would be the better option IMHO, personally I would:
1) Use slightly different blue #0095d0 would be a little more suitable.
2) Try some different font options, font choice can make or break a logo. I would try Bodoni, Didot or maybe something like Nilland or Lacuna (which are both free open source fonts).

ChicoWeb
Jul 1, 2009, 01:55 PM
These threads are lame! I say help him or move on. So many over inflated egos it's painful to read through.

besler3035
Jul 1, 2009, 02:30 PM
IMO, I think you really need to have an element that captures the eye. What's something that represents this medical company? Choose something that's fresh and unique.

Other than that, I think you need to focus your time designing with some different fonts. I'm just not drawn to the one you're using at all; I think it could really benefit from something clean, and not everything running straight across like that.

When you start designing a logo, take into account that this will go on a website, business cards, brochures, letterhead, etc. It either needs to fit into all of these mediums or you have to come up with an alternative logo to fit certain specs.

Good luck.

timato
Jul 1, 2009, 03:53 PM
Let me guess, you have no formal training in graphic design? If not, then why are you doing this for money?

I just stumbled across this thread, so sorry if I'm late.

Sorry to start a "heated discussion" or whatever in my first post, but I disagree with you here.

Graphic design isn't taught. You can't teach someone how to design. You can teach them techniques, but design is subjective, personal, and can never please everyone...

People think in today's world that they are entitled to be called a graphic designer because they went to an arts college, or did a MA in graphic design or similar, but how does that equate as to whether you should be charging or not? Surely that decision should be made on whether your work and instinct is decent...

Anyway, about the logos. I don't really think they say anything unique or interesting to me. Just an irrelevant shape.

Research research research brainstorm brainstorm brainstorm draw.

Muncher
Jul 1, 2009, 03:57 PM
Oh, one more thing to the OP. If you're trying to figure out proportions for the logo (i.e. total width vs height), golden rectangles are always a good choice.

THX1139
Jul 1, 2009, 10:56 PM
Graphic design isn't taught. You can't teach someone how to design. You can teach them techniques, but design is subjective, personal, and can never please everyone...

Uh... okay. :rolleyes: So anyone going to MIT design school, Pratt, RISD, Art Center, Parsons, etc., they are all wasting their time?

Wow, most of this thread has turn into a pile of horse dung. Okay, I get it... most of you hate formally trained Designers. Especially those of you who don't know anything about Graphic Design! Geez... it reminds me of how PC people treat Mac people on the 3d design forums. Some of you blather at the keyboard about how elitist Graphic Designers are, but then you don't bother to re-read your own writings to see that you are the pot calling the kettle black. Some of you are so vindictive in the tone of your posts! It's "nerving" ;) But yeah... some of us (me) are a bit head-strong. I feel that we/I have earned the right by paying our dues and putting up with crap over the years. But anyway -seriously, I may have wrote some strong and direct to the point posts (especially in defense of my profession), but I haven't stooped to the level some of you have by bashing and dismissing formally trained Designers. I find it especially interesting how many negative comments came from people who are NOT designers and then they comment like they know what it takes to be one. Wow! Are you saying I wasted all that time and money going to school?? Oh, crap!

Or, are you just "jealous" because you couldn't hack it with your own pursuits? I'm just asking... :)

Hey, I'll give you this. I am sorry. I MAY have been wrong to imply that you have to be formally trained to be a Graphic Designer. There is plenty of need for logos on the sides of pickup trucks, yard sale signs, and $20 dollar logos for your neighbors/family businesses. Keep them coming! It's a source of entertainment when I'm driving around (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rampcreative/sets/72157594588429134/) town running errands or surfing the web. I'm always amazed at what some of you folks come up with! ;)

Here's one I ran into on the web today. I love the logo on the main page! Excellent use of the bevel and emboss and the drop-shadow is a nice subtle touch!

Nice logo-type (http://www.alpha-omegawf.com/home.html)

Then there is this jewel of a website. I'm sure whoever designed it didn't have any formal training because of how beautiful and functional it is.

Beautiful site (http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~educator/list.htm)

Also, someone mentioned David Carson as someone who did well without a degree. Well... there's a dandy for you. Great example of someone who shook up the industry by breaking all of the rules (of type). Probably because, for the most part, he didn't know the rules. He was mostly self-taught and is a great example of someone who managed to make it without a design degree. Although, it should be mentioned that he did go to art school in San Diego as well as take design classes in Switzerland. And there was his sociology degree... But those don't count, right?

And just because you go to school doesn't make you successful. Yeah, I agree with that. You also have to have passion and determination. Good schools weed out the posers, or people who didn't have the inherent talent. It's hard to fake your way to a graphic design degree if you attend a reputable school. My school wouldn't even let you in without passing a strict portfolio requirement. Fail and you have to wait a year before resubmitting. Those who don't get in, choose another field or try to go it alone. See what I'm saying here? Would you let a doctor work on you if he couldn't get into med school? Just asking...

Well, that reminds me; I have to run off and get my teeth worked on by my brother-in-law. He's thinking about becoming a dentist, so I thought I'd save some money and have him fix a cavity and do a deep cleaning. It's a great idea because he gets to learn and I get to save a chunk of money from having to go to a professional! I just know that Dentists are all over-paid and elitists! I mean, how hard can it be!!

I'll leave you with a link that shows some ol' boring logos that were done by Paul Rand. He was formally trained at Pratt - I wonder if that was a waste of his time?

Some Rand logos (http://blog.androdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/paul_rand_logos.jpg)

Oh, and one more...

Malcolm Grear (http://www.logolounge.com/featureddesigner/default.asp?Archive=True&ArticleID=460). Another boringly trained Graphic Designer. He we went to school at Art Academy of Cincinnati. Looking at his work... I wonder if it has paid off? I do know that it got him a professorship at RISD (http://www.risd.edu/)... as well as getting to do the primary designs for the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. So maybe...?

If you want to see some of his work, you might want to check it out at the following link because you won't see his designs on the side of pickup trucks while driving around town (unless you live in Rhode Island).

Malcolm Grear indentity (http://www.mgrear.com/identity-branding-ri.cfm)

Peace out everyone :D





*My opinions in no way reflect the Graphic Design community. They are solely my own and I mean no offense to anyone who is serious about the discipline of Graphic Design. To everyone else...

ezekielrage_99
Jul 1, 2009, 11:35 PM
^ Again, you get what you paid for...

Genghis Khan
Jul 2, 2009, 01:37 AM
Being in my final year of my undergraduate in Architecture, I think I've spotted the difference between trained and untrained designers.

Everyone on earth has at at least one point in their life sketched down a design of some sort and thought "yeah, that looks cool...if i ever fail at *insert career here* i could become a designer".

However, a professionally trained designer is able to produce at least a 7 out of 10 design ALL OF THE TIME. Novices can produce anything from a 1 to a 10, and it can change from week to week.


It is also worth noting that we all started off knowing little of nothing when we entered design school. But 3 years (or whatever your degree length was) of being with 100's of people like yourself searching for better design practices and being critiqued each week of those 3 years accelerates your learning about design.


However, I reckon the best way to learn anything is an apprenticeship - being with a master of your chosen craft each day for a number of years.

SwiftLives
Jul 2, 2009, 05:55 AM
Graphic design isn't taught. You can't teach someone how to design. You can teach them techniques, but design is subjective, personal, and can never please everyone...

People think in today's world that they are entitled to be called a graphic designer because they went to an arts college, or did a MA in graphic design or similar, but how does that equate as to whether you should be charging or not? Surely that decision should be made on whether your work and instinct is decent...

Um...just out of curiosity. Ever heard of the basic principles of design? While I agree there is a certain amount of subjectivity to the field, I have to strongly disagree with you that design in entirely - even a majority subjective. There are basic fundamentals that most of us learned in various classes over the years, and for that matter, from starting out in design and getting help from other more experienced designers.

Furthermore, most of us are entitled to be graphic designers because we frakkin' love what we do. We have a passion for creating eye-catching and innovative designs. We love solving design problems. We go to college and take classes to enhance our skills and become even better at what we do. Hell - that's why we post on these forums. To get some feedback and criticism and to grow better in our field.

timato - please don't come on here and insult people by disparaging their life's passion. I know we tend to come across as completely elitist and inaccessible (It has happened many times before), but a lot of that stems from graphic design being a very thankless job. Yet we still love it.

On that note, I need a drink.

design-is
Jul 2, 2009, 08:46 AM
These threads are lame! I say help him or move on. So many over inflated egos it's painful to read through.

Agreed, can't a mod/admin separate the thread into the existing one, where poeple can help this guy, and a new one where we discuss the merits and pitfalls of asking for help... :rolleyes:

usclaneyj
Jul 2, 2009, 08:46 AM
http://i44.tinypic.com/2nkooev.jpg

Several things:

1) Before devoting more time to focusing on this design you should go back to the drawing board and try to make 5 more logos that are completely different from everything you've already done. Really try to explore what it is that the company does. Create a visual element that helps the target user understand that company's business. After doing that, if you still feel that this is your best rough idea, move on to the next points.

2) I'd stay away from putting that + in the O. It's not going to reproduce well at smaller sizes, and it really just seems forced. Almost like you realized there wasn't a lot going on in the logo so you decided to spice it up with a + sign. If it were me, and I was really just stuck on using that + I think I would look at using it in place of the T.

3) Your tracking & kerning is awkward in most of your designs, but especially so here. There's space between the letters is ambiguous. Are they intentionally tracked wide? Is that just the way the typeface spaced them? Either increase the tracking (if you're going for that "classy" look) or focus on kerning the letters to elminate the awkward spaces and inconsistencies between letter differences.

4) I'm not sold on this typeface in general, especially not with the use of small caps. The small caps just seem arbitrary and really compromise the message. If you're trying to create an assertive, bold look, why not just go with all caps? If you're looking for something more modern and trendy, I'd suggest you ditch the small caps and go with title case or all lower case.

5) I saved this one for last. Hopefully you're still reading. ;) The most glaring issue with this design is that you put the word *GROWTH* in a box. A box! Just think about that one for a minute. You have to be mindful of the subconscious effects of your designs, and not just the obvious meanings your imagery conveys.

Nugget
Jul 2, 2009, 08:48 AM
Several things. . .
All five of your points are spot-on (especially number five :)). Great advice.

derboy
Jul 2, 2009, 08:50 AM
Why are graphic designers so precious?? The fact remains that all the training you need is minimal and it isn't a black art. All you need is to read a few books and take and to interest in how stuff is put together.

I don't know of any degree that teaches logos! Its all self taught.

There are so many disciplines of design, none really better than the other. Graphics is easier to get into that most, and often you need to pick these skills up if you want to excel at other design types.

My advice would be to just keep going and enjoy it. I like the first logo on the very first post most. It doesnt really need to tell a story, just needs to be individual and fundamental.

I think the medical cross looks a bit naff, -sorry. Its a medical company dah!

jbennardo
Jul 2, 2009, 09:31 AM
This has been quite an interesting read. I do agree with THX to a point.. not necessarily about the OP, but the state of creative industries in general.

All too often, anyone with photoshop elements or print shop deluxe feels they can do just as good a job as a trained professional. The weekend warrior is way too prevalent... in all fields. Powerful consumer-level software makes this possible for nearly anyone these days. Garageband has made overnight rock stars, iMovie has made instant Spielbergs.. head to Best Buy, get a digital SLR and you're a photographer....you get the idea. :D

Not saying this is the case with the OP, just seems to be going around.

Muncher
Jul 2, 2009, 11:08 AM
This has been quite an interesting read. I do agree with THX to a point.. not necessarily about the OP, but the state of creative industries in general.

All too often, anyone with photoshop elements or print shop deluxe feels they can do just as good a job as a trained professional...head to Best Buy, get a digital SLR and you're a photographer...you get the idea. :D

If you know enough to go for a DSLR and not a point and shoot, you must know something :p. From my friends' viewpoints, "you can't even see what you're taking a picture of on the display," and "you have to turn it to zoom." Clearly for them, the point and shoot is the "better" camera.

THX1139
Jul 2, 2009, 12:23 PM
Why are graphic designers so precious?? The fact remains that all the training you need is minimal and it isn't a black art. All you need is to read a few books and take and to interest in how stuff is put together.

I don't know of any degree that teaches logos! Its all self taught.

There are so many disciplines of design, none really better than the other. Graphics is easier to get into that most, and often you need to pick these skills up if you want to excel at other design types.

My advice would be to just keep going and enjoy it. I like the first logo on the very first post most. It doesnt really need to tell a story, just needs to be individual and fundamental.

I think the medical cross looks a bit naff, -sorry. Its a medical company dah!

Okay - this must be a troll post. Pretty much everything he wrote is just wrong. My guess is that derboy is not a graphic designer, nor does he have any clue to what being one entails.

And while I'm making this post, I thought I'd mention that usclaneyj is spot on with his 5 point crit. It's all basic stuff - the kerning issues, tracking, leading, choice of type, etc... and if the OP had any formal experience he would have already known about those issues and fixed them BEFORE showing here for crit. As a designer, I SEE those issues right away. My eye has been TRAINED to see stuff like that so that I don't allow them to creep into my designs. That's what makes a formally trained designer better than most self-taught people. We have learned how to SEE and react to solving visual problems.

Rt&Dzine
Jul 2, 2009, 06:30 PM
I don't know of any degree that teaches logos! Its all self taught.

You may not know, but logo design was part of my graphic design program. That's not to say that someone can't learn on their own.

ezekielrage_99
Jul 2, 2009, 07:01 PM
I don't know of any degree that teaches logos! Its all self taught.

Degree in Applied Communication Design form Billy Blue... And I believe the subject is Symbols and Distribution.

sushi
Jul 2, 2009, 07:47 PM
5) I saved this one for last. Hopefully you're still reading. ;) The most glaring issue with this design is that you put the word *GROWTH* in a box. A box! Just think about that one for a minute. You have to be mindful of the subconscious effects of your designs, and not just the obvious meanings your imagery conveys.
I would love to hear your logic on this one.

What does it convey to you?

ezekielrage_99
Jul 2, 2009, 08:34 PM
I would love to hear your logic on this one.

What does it convey to you?

This is a good article on the psychology of shapes in design. (http://www.design-skills.org/the_psychology_of_forms.html)

And this isn't too bad either.... (http://www.worldtrans.org/TP/TP2/TP2A-66.HTML)

sushi
Jul 2, 2009, 09:33 PM
This is a good article on the psychology of shapes in design. (http://www.design-skills.org/the_psychology_of_forms.html)

And this isn't too bad either.... (http://www.worldtrans.org/TP/TP2/TP2A-66.HTML)
Thanks. Interesting sites.

However, I would like to hear usclaneyj reasoning.

pranavss11
Jul 3, 2009, 12:46 AM
I am also a bit bothered by all these "Software" taunts. I am in my final year as a Software Engineer and trust me, it's far from just "Learning programming language from a book".

There are many things that are included in software including but not limited to designing the software, industry programming standards etc. which cannot be self taught. The people who think that they can just "self teach" software engineering need to get their heads out of their asses and look around.

@OP: I also like the logo that sushi pointed out but that's just me.

HBOC
Jul 3, 2009, 02:19 AM
Then there is this jewel of a website. I'm sure whoever designed it didn't have any formal training because of how beautiful and functional it is.

Beautiful site (http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~educator/list.htm)


thanks for that link. My eyes and head still hurt.

derboy
Jul 3, 2009, 03:17 AM
Perhaps my comments were a bit strong! :o

I'd just like to say to the OP keep going. Your work isn't that bad, and with some more research it would be fine to sell.

I am a designer. Product designer with lots of my work available to buy in the shops. I meet and work with many people working around the world in the field of design. Graphics guys don't need to be so hard on people trying to get going with it. It is perfectly cool to get started from scratch. It can easily be learnt.

arkitect
Jul 3, 2009, 03:21 AM
I would love to hear your logic on this one.

What does it convey to you?

You really don't see the problem with "enclosing" the concept or word Growth in a box or container? :o
Containing… limiting… preventing…

Hmmmmmmm. :)


Malcolm Grear (http://www.logolounge.com/featureddesigner/default.asp?Archive=True&ArticleID=460). Another boringly trained Graphic Designer.

Although I must confess I am not a fan of the Presbyterian aka "sweaty armpits" logo… ;)

Beautiful site (http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~educator/list.htm)
thanks for that link. My eyes and head still hurt.
No joke. :eek:
Wow. I needed to go sit in a darkened room for a while.

However, let's not forget that all the training in the world and a massive design fee can still lead to this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/olympics_2012/6718243.stm):
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43005000/gif/_43005619_london_new_pink_203.gif

ezekielrage_99
Jul 3, 2009, 08:53 AM
^ Did the London logo fulfill its purpose, YES. I still consider it to be in my 10 ten best logo concepts.

Did I like the design of the logo NO, but its success can be put to that fact it created the hype it was meant to create. Again you get what you pay for and the strategy implemented by Wolf Olins was spot on.

sushi
Jul 3, 2009, 09:39 AM
You really don't see the problem with "enclosing" the concept or word Growth in a box or container? :o
Containing… limiting… preventing…

Hmmmmmmm. :)
Since it looks like usclaneyj is not going to answer, I will offer you this.

Take off your designer hat and put on your investor hat for a moment.

Conservative, responsible, integrity, professional, honest, etc. come to mind which is what I want with my funds/money!

The line on the left and underneath the words indicate a run chart -- one of the most popular charts used by investors. Additionally, if you look at it as an investor, it shows an up tick and down tick which portrays a realistic approach since the market go up and down and is rarely static. By having the upper part in the middle, the logo gives the impression of growth.

Granted different fonts might be used. Possibly a different color. But for a first time out, the OP created a decent logo. :)

arkitect
Jul 3, 2009, 09:41 AM
Conservative, responsible, integrity, professional, honest, etc. come to mind which is what I want with my funds/money!
:)
;)
Nice try, but we'll just disagree on this one.
:)

sushi
Jul 3, 2009, 10:13 AM
;)
Nice try, but we'll just disagree on this one.
:)
We definitely will.

And this is where designers go astray at times.

Bottom line, the logo must represent what the customers (clients) want.

game2
Jul 4, 2009, 03:02 AM
I think some of you so called "Designers" forget that there's no NORM on what people like. ART cannot be taught, specific art designs can be... this does not mean that the CONSUMER prefers your so called BOOK taught bull crap design concepts.

Im sorry but if your taught that the London logo " is perfect" or an example im not sure what your teachers are teaching. Logo design altho a little different than art must be liked, and you simply cannot teach what is liked.

Funny and i was considering graphic design as a dual bachelors with the marketing im about to finish. 84k at frt laudy art institute i think ill save my money.

THX1139
Jul 4, 2009, 05:01 AM
I think some of you so called "Designers" forget that there's no NORM on what people like. ART cannot be taught, specific art designs can be... this does not mean that the CONSUMER prefers your so called BOOK taught bull crap design concepts.

Im sorry but if your taught that the London logo " is perfect" or an example im not sure what your teachers are teaching. Logo design altho a little different than art must be liked, and you simply cannot teach what is liked.

Funny and i was considering graphic design as a dual bachelors with the marketing im about to finish. 84k at frt laudy art institute i think ill save my money.

Wow, a dual bachelors and you can't even spell? Most modern computers have spell-check built in. You should learn to use it if you want people to take you serious.

Anyway, your first mistake is to think that Art and Graphic Design are the same thing, or very similar. They are not. I won't bother to explain the difference because you probably wouldn't understand.

You should save your money and stick with your marketing degree. Especially since you know nothing about the field of graphic design. Oh, and one more thing! Not all reputable schools charge 84K for a design degree.

anim8or
Jul 4, 2009, 05:09 AM
Never before have I seen such a hostile group of people. My goodness. Did all the 'designers' wake up on the wrong side of the bed today or what.

I don't think i have ever found a forum that doesn't have a majority of disgruntled designers who accuse everyone of having no formal training and criticise (not always constructively) the work on show.....

They all had it hard I guess and no one gets an easy ride.....

How else are people supposed to discover they have a talent for design until a twist of fate throws them a job on the side and they realise their love for it... that when they should go get trained up....

I think all you 'designers' should get off your high horses and try to be more accommodating to those who are asking advice

game2
Jul 4, 2009, 09:32 AM
Wow, a dual bachelors and you can't even spell?

Posted at 4 am buddy give me a break. It's okay ill save my money for something worthy:eek:

Muncher
Jul 5, 2009, 12:05 AM
Im sorry but if your taught that the London logo " is perfect" or an example im not sure what your teachers are teaching. Logo design altho a little different than art must be liked, and you simply cannot teach what is liked.

I don't think anyone is capable of saying that logo is perfect. It did, however, attract quite a bit of attention, even from outside the design industry. This is what it was probably meant to do (it was described as "vibrant," lol :D), therefore it was successful. If you want to want to get a chocolate bar, and you blackmail someone into getting it for you, well, you still get your bar :p.

sn00pie
Jul 5, 2009, 12:19 AM
The last batch looks extremely unprofessional. I liked #2 the best. Throw out the blue and go with a red, it fits with the medical theme much more than a hue of blue will.

Don't take the criticism negatively because if this is something you want to pursue, you will need to get used to it and learn from it.

THX1139
Jul 5, 2009, 01:12 PM
Posted at 4 am buddy give me a break. It's okay ill save my money for something worthy:eek:

If you don't know what something is, then how do you know what it's worth?

It's posts like his - and you wonder why some designers have the attitudes that they have. There is a blatant disregard of educated designers on this forum; a very unfriendly environment for people who worked their butts off to get their degrees.

stainlessliquid
Jul 6, 2009, 01:28 PM
Never before have I seen such a hostile group of people. My goodness. Did all the 'designers' wake up on the wrong side of the bed today or what.
You must be new. This happens all the time.
You're coming to people when your work is 50% finished. It's not like it's almost there, and you only need a few eyes to help with the finishing touches. What you're essentially doing is this: Through asking questions, you're going to edit your work, take more of the advice, and just continue until you have something that has had a professional touch on it.

You're going to get this reaction from any field where something needs creativity, and an understanding of fundamentals, to create something that works.
Thats not true. Forums that are dedicated to design help people of all skill levels at all stages of the design, people are there to help each other because they know that theyll be able to ask for help as well. The snobs and people who just want to find a reason to brag about being a professional get shunned/banned out of those places pretty quick.

HerbyGunther
Jul 6, 2009, 01:47 PM
Let me guess, you have no formal training in graphic design? If not, then why are you doing this for money?

Sorry to say this, but this is such a stupid comment. I know a lot of professional designers who are talented and skilled as hell, who didn't had formal design training. It just takes hard work and dedication! Having had formal training doesn't mean you are good and vice versa.

THX1139
Jul 6, 2009, 02:22 PM
Sorry to say this, but this is such a stupid comment. I know a lot of professional designers who are talented and skilled as hell, who didn't had formal design training. It just takes hard work and dedication! Having had formal training doesn't mean you are good and vice versa.

Riggghhht... but those designers have real world EXPERIENCE and that gives them a reason to charge. They paid their dues to learn their craft. You took my comment out of context. The OP presented a logo that has all kinds of basic design errors that led me to believe he was a novice and shouldn't be charging money. I agree that there are other ways to be good at design than just going to school. Experience and natural talent go along way too. My argument has been that if you are new to (anything) and don't know what you are doing, then you have no business charging money for your services. If the OP would have posted his "logo" as practice and asking for crit, my response would have been different.

There are other ways to get good enough to be professional and charge for services. Go to school, or get an internship, or mentor under someone (preferably do all three!). Again, my argument has been that the amateurs and novices should not be charging money for services until they know the industry - of which I favor formal training in a reputable design school. Of course, my opinion on this led to all types of disdain for me and formally trained graphic designers; I felt the need to defend my position.

stainlessliquid
Jul 6, 2009, 03:06 PM
Riggghhht... but those designers have real world EXPERIENCE and that gives them a reason to charge. They paid their dues to learn their craft. You took my comment out of context. The OP presented a logo that has all kinds of basic design errors that led me to believe he was a novice and shouldn't be charging money. I agree that there are other ways to be good at design than just going to school. Experience and natural talent go along way too. My argument has been that if you are new to (anything) and don't know what you are doing, then you have no business charging money for your services. If the OP would have posted his "logo" as practice and asking for crit, my response would have been different.

There are other ways to get good enough to be professional and charge for services. Go to school, or get an internship, or mentor under someone (preferably do all three!). Again, my argument has been that the amateurs and novices should not be charging money for services until they know the industry - of which I favor formal training in a reputable design school. Of course, my opinion on this led to all types of disdain for me and formally trained graphic designers; I felt the need to defend my position.
So what youre saying is that people should do design for free? Somehow I think you would be objecting to that as well. Amateurs comping work always starts arguments here with people saying theyre ruining the industry.

GoCubsGo
Jul 6, 2009, 03:07 PM
Are you mean old designers still beating this poor kid up over asking for advice?

EmperorDarius
Jul 6, 2009, 03:13 PM
Riggghhht... but those designers have real world EXPERIENCE and that gives them a reason to charge. They paid their dues to learn their craft. You took my comment out of context. The OP presented a logo that has all kinds of basic design errors that led me to believe he was a novice and shouldn't be charging money. I agree that there are other ways to be good at design than just going to school. Experience and natural talent go along way too. My argument has been that if you are new to (anything) and don't know what you are doing, then you have no business charging money for your services. If the OP would have posted his "logo" as practice and asking for crit, my response would have been different.

There are other ways to get good enough to be professional and charge for services. Go to school, or get an internship, or mentor under someone (preferably do all three!). Again, my argument has been that the amateurs and novices should not be charging money for services until they know the industry - of which I favor formal training in a reputable design school. Of course, my opinion on this led to all types of disdain for me and formally trained graphic designers; I felt the need to defend my position.

What is someones wants to get a logo for (very) cheap? Better hire an amateur than do it by themselves.

THX1139
Jul 6, 2009, 03:50 PM
So what youre saying is that people should do design for free? Somehow I think you would be objecting to that as well. Amateurs comping work always starts arguments here with people saying theyre ruining the industry.

You are correct, I object to that as well. A large part of my argument has been that businesses should NOT be hiring amateurs to create their identity as a way to get off cheap. I think it takes money out of the pockets of legitimate designers who deserve to make a living. A business identity is probably the most important aspect of setting up a business. Why would anyone trust designing their business persona to an amateur?

Would you go to an amateur to have them give you a root canal if you could get it done cheaply?

People should not do design for free. As I said in my post above, amateurs can gain experience by going to school, mentorship, or internship.

KeithPratt
Jul 6, 2009, 05:24 PM
God, I thought I could resist posting in this thread...

My argument has been that if you are new to (anything) and don't know what you are doing, then you have no business charging money for your services. If the OP would have posted his "logo" as practice and asking for crit, my response would have been different.

The OP asked for some advice on his design, not the rules by which to live his life.

Would you go to an amateur to have them give you a root canal if you could get it done cheaply?

But that's the whole point isn't it — design is not like dentistry. Did you back off from "heart bypass" here, deciding it was too much?

Why would anyone trust designing their business persona to an amateur?

Rather than a design god like yourself? Can you truly not see the (barely) latent arrogance here that's rubbing people up the wrong way?

It doesn't matter how many times you restate or subtly modify what you've said earlier in the thread, the fact is a lot of people disagree with your comments and attitude.

stainlessliquid
Jul 6, 2009, 05:29 PM
Then how do you get experience? If they shouldnt be doing work for money without graduating from design school, and they shouldnt do work for free, then where is this experience coming from?

Would you go to an amateur to have them give you a root canal if you could get it done cheaply?
As a last resort, yes. Wouldnt you? Does Mary who brings home $25,000 a year after expenses running Mary's Gardening and Landscaping not deserve a logo and business card because she cant afford the $5,000 a design firm charges? A lot of designers assume every business is a multi million dollar corporation that can spend thousands of dollars on design work, when in reality a lot of small business owners are just as broke as any normal person making 15 bucks an hour after expenses and outrageous taxes. People without much money have 2 options, they can either find an amateur that knows how to design or do root canals even if they arent very good at it, or they can go without a design or a root canal and suffer the consequences. Its not always an issue of a business being cheap and taking advantage of a designer, it can mean the difference between spending thousands of dollars on a fancy website or spending thousands of dollars on equipment you need to do your job. These people need SOME money to live on you know.

Daremo
Jul 6, 2009, 05:53 PM
I've been a graphic artist for almost 19 years now. I've worked in all aspects of the print industry, from film stripper, to desktop publisher, head designer, and Art Department foreman for a high end commercial printer for many years (one of the first in Illinois to use Staccato printing.) I attended some college but 19 years ago, where things were very different then today. I evolved with the technology, and continue to be self taught.

This thread is interesting to me. I agree and disagree with a lot of both sides on this. I think there's a good line right in the middle where it should all sit.

Sometimes, it's impossible to get real world experience on design. What I used to do was design projects just for the practice. If they turned out good, they would make it into my portfolio. New designers can gain experience, without clients. Just look at a product, and design for it. Take a car photo, and try to create a magazine quality add. Even go as far as to have your family and friends make up a fake company name, and what this fake company does, and create an identity for it.

There's ways to get good at your craft without stepping on peoples toes. Where I agree, if someone is willing to pay you money, do the best you can to earn that money, BUT, make sure you can offer them their moneys worth, and the only way to do that is first get decent at your craft.

Basically, if the OP wants to be a designer, there are many ways to do it without formal training, but they're going to need to put in the time and practice.

OutThere
Jul 6, 2009, 06:00 PM
Then how do you get experience? If they shouldnt be doing work for money without graduating from design school, and they shouldnt do work for free, then where is this experience coming from?


As a last resort, yes. Wouldnt you? Does Mary who brings home $25,000 a year after expenses running Mary's Gardening and Landscaping not deserve a logo and business card because she cant afford the $5,000 a design firm charges? A lot of designers assume every business is a multi million dollar corporation that can spend thousands of dollars on design work, when in reality a lot of small business owners are just as broke as any normal person making 15 bucks an hour after expenses and outrageous taxes. People without much money have 2 options, they can either find an amateur that knows how to design or do root canals even if they arent very good at it, or they can go without a design or a root canal and suffer the consequences. Its not always an issue of a business being cheap and taking advantage of a designer, it can mean the difference between spending thousands of dollars on a fancy website or spending thousands of dollars on equipment you need to do your job. These people need SOME money to live on you know.

Well said.


The degree of elitism in this thread is deafening. Anyone with half an eye on the design world knows there are tons of hacks out there with plenty of degrees and experience. Distinguish yourself from them by the quality of your work, not by s***ting on newcomers on an internet forum.

THX1139
Jul 6, 2009, 06:31 PM
God, I thought I could resist posting in this thread...



The OP asked for some advice on his design, not the rules by which to live his life.



But that's the whole point isn't it — design is not like dentistry. Did you back off from "heart bypass" here, deciding it was too much?



Rather than a design god like yourself? Can you truly not see the (barely) latent arrogance here that's rubbing people up the wrong way?

It doesn't matter how many times you restate or subtly modify what you've said earlier in the thread, the fact is a lot of people disagree with your comments and attitude.

Wow, I don't know how to respond to your personal insults without getting banned, so I'll just leave it at that.

I've decided that this thread is a waste of my time and I won't be back. There is no sense in trying to convince a bunch of strangers the value of getting formal training in graphic design. I just wish I could be there on the day your cousin Sal can't deliver on that $50 logo he promised and you just can't understand why. :rolleyes:

mwchris
Jul 6, 2009, 07:04 PM
Can't handle a taste of your own medicine? Whether you believe it or not, more likely not, you have insulted the original poster, other "designers", and everyone else who has disagreed with you in this thread.

I think what is so interesting that you are so concerned about the fact that someone who has no formal training is being compensated for there time, regardless of how big or small it is.

Everyone's TIME is a valuable thing, and is worth something!

Spend less time worrying about others and how you feel they are going to fail and you will most likely have more TIME, which means more MONEY!


OH, and . . .
SNIP...

I'll end this by saying that I'm sorry if I offended anyone. ....

Wow, I don't know how to respond to your personal insults without getting banned, so I'll just leave it at that.

I've decided that this thread is a waste of my time and I won't be back. ...

Heard that before! :rolleyes:

ezekielrage_99
Jul 6, 2009, 11:07 PM
I'm surprised this is still going on...

I thought the horse was dead long ago...

Well no one has posted NO!SPEC (http://www.no-spec.com/) so I though it might be a good idea to interject some more trolls to the thread :cool:

usclaneyj
Jul 15, 2009, 08:11 AM
Since it looks like usclaneyj is not going to answer, I will offer you this.

Take off your designer hat and put on your investor hat for a moment.

Conservative, responsible, integrity, professional, honest, etc. come to mind which is what I want with my funds/money!

The line on the left and underneath the words indicate a run chart -- one of the most popular charts used by investors. Additionally, if you look at it as an investor, it shows an up tick and down tick which portrays a realistic approach since the market go up and down and is rarely static. By having the upper part in the middle, the logo gives the impression of growth.

Granted different fonts might be used. Possibly a different color. But for a first time out, the OP created a decent logo. :)

Sorry for not checking these forums quickly enough for you, Sush.

I'm unsure what line you're referring to. I never made mention of a line in my post. Maybe you mean the one in macdaddy's original design?

Now on to the box issue: There is nothing wrong with using a box to draw focus to an important word, such as "Growth". But psychologically, the size of the box & the lack of generous margins create a feeling of confinement. When something is confined to a small box, it is unable to grow (ie - Chinese foot-binding, Bonsai trees, large fish in small fish tanks, etc). The typeface lacks action and visual interest, and the kerning causes these issues to become more obvious. Framing said issues in a box only heightens their conspicuousness.

For the record, I'm not the type of person to begrudge someone their chance at becoming a graphic designer. I fully hope that the OP is continuing to refine their skills and glean useful information from criticisms that they *will* receive when they ask for help.