Remember Afghanistan?

[skunk]

The gun still rules
By Hamida Ghafouh
(Filed: 30/05/2004)


The world witnessed the cruelties of the Taliban regime thanks largely to video footage showing the torture of women - having their hands cut off, being beaten with cables in markets, being executed - that was secretly filmed and smuggled out through the Revolutionary Association of Women into Pakistan.

Many of the images were captured by Parween, now a 25-year-old university student in Kabul, who was among the millions of Afghans who considered the Coalition to be saviours after the Taliban were ousted in November 2001.

Today, Parween is too scared to leave her house. "A lot of the people in the government now are the same fundamentalists who were here during the civil war," she says. "They don't want women to be free and educated and we are still afraid. Life was supposed to be different now."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/30/wblair130.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/30/ixnewstop.html

A template for the "New Iraq"?

[Voltron]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/30/wblair130.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/30/ixnewstop.html

A template for the "New Iraq"?
You can't expect America to baby sit for the rest of their lives. They must govern themselves and it is their own fault if they fall back into their old habits. Afghanistan is not the newest state of the US.

[skunk]

You can't expect America to baby sit for the rest of their lives. They must govern themselves and it is their own fault if they fall back into their old habits. Afghanistan is not the newest state of the US.
But you should expect America to leave a nation which they have invaded, ten thousand of whose citizens they have killed, and whose regime they have replaced with their own puppet government, in a better state than they found it in. The US has been as unprincipled here as in Iraq. They set up the Taleban, they set up Bin Laden, they reaped the result.

[SiliconAddict]

You can't expect America to baby sit for the rest of their lives. They must govern themselves and it is their own fault if they fall back into their old habits.


No but we should expect the US not to do a half ass job before moving on...oh wait....sorry this is the Bush admin we are talking about. Look we went into Afgan to f up al queda and get Bin Laden. Once that was done instead of creating a stable environment we turned our empire building eye onto iraq and lost interest. Period.

We invaded October, 2001. Less then 17 months later they invaded Iraq. We didn't stablize the area, and we didn't provide the aid and the tools to rebuild Afgan before we left and that is OUR fault not theirs. We left the environment open for the Taliban to return. The US has a KNOWN history of doing this: Leaving jobs unfinished. DO NOT blame the inhabitants of Afgan for our f ups.


Afghanistan is not the newest state of the US.

You are right it isn't. It would have been a colony an occupied nation if we hadn't lost interest. We are doing a fine job at following in the footsteps of the Roman Empire. All hail the American Empire.

[zimv20]

i see sly's drinking the funny juice again. odd how he says pulling out of iraq would be irresponsible, but when it was done if afghanistan, it's different.

<stoppard>
consistency is all i ask!
</stoppard>

[skunk]

We are doing a fine job at following in the footsteps of the Roman Empire. All hail the American Empire.
Now, come on! Don't diss the Romans. At least they knew what they were doing!

[dopefiend]

If only people could take care of themselves....(and I'm not talking Americans here)

[skunk]

i see sly's drinking the funny juice again. odd how he says pulling out of iraq would be irresponsible, but when it was done if afghanistan, it's different.

<stoppard>
consistency is all i ask!
</stoppard>
I guess it's "different strokes for different folks".

[skunk]

If only people could take care of themselves....(and I'm not talking Americans here)
If only they were allowed to...

[dopefiend]

If only they were allowed to...

Uh...They are.

And yet, they continue to riot and fight each other over religions and such.

[skunk]

Uh...They are.

And yet, they continue to riot and fight each other over religions and such.
And we civilized people don't?

[dopefiend]

And we civilized people don't?

***looks casually around America***

Nope, no religious rioting and suicide bombers originating from my country.

[zimv20]

someone is one step closer to my ignore list...

[skunk]

someone is one step closer to my ignore list...
What did I say? :eek:

[zimv20]

What did I say? :eek:
it was:
The US has been as unprincipled here as in Iraq.
since you don't live here, and we're so awesome, you have no right to pass judgement. we saved you (sic) ass in WWII!!!!

</silliness>

[LethalWolfe]

The US is in a no win situation in this regard. If they put Afghanistan and Iraq under strict military control, establish order, and lay the foundations for a new government (obviously w/input from the locals) they get slammed for being imperialists and not letting the locals govern themselves.

If they try and stay more "hands-off" and let the locals have the reins <sp?> they get slammed for not doing enough.



-Lethal

[zimv20]

The US is in a no win situation in this regard. If they put Afghanistan and Iraq under strict military control, establish order, and lay the foundations for a new government (obviously w/input from the locals) they get slammed for being imperialists and not letting the locals govern themselves.

the iraqi and afghani situations are too complex to apply the same solution.

for two years now, karzai has been pleading to the world for more aid and more int'l workers. when the US turned its attention to iraq, the security situation deteriorated quickly. you talk of the extremes, but wrt afghanistan, they've been asking for more US intervention.

we invaded, blew up a few things, then left a power vacuum. exactly what bush said would not happen. once again, the people of afghanistan are screwed by a foreign power. yes, they'd love to self-govern, but they don't have the tools.

[takao]

hm in 1945 austria was split in 4 zones 1 ruled by americans 1 by british,1 by french and 1 by soviets....
guess _in which_ zone the first free election took place for (local)representatives of the austrians ?



yes... it really was in the soviet controlled zone .. the election took place in november 1945 .... thats a few _months_ after the end of ww2
it took another 2 years for the first elections in the american, british or french zone .....


so i'm not surprised that there is no election on the way... can anybody remember after which conflict the US handed back the control over a country fast ... ?

[pseudobrit]

the iraqi and afghani situations are too complex to apply the same solution..

I'm gonna be a dick since we don't disagree very often. Afghan is the adjective for describing something or someone pertaining to Afghanistan.

Pakistan is Pakistani, Iraq is Iraqi, but Afghanistan is Afghan.

WRT the Afghan and Iraqi situations, I think we'd be a lot better off if we'd had plans that didn't default to "we'll remove the current government and the people will naturally thank us and set up a peaceful democracy with little trouble."

[zimv20]

I'm gonna be a dick since we don't disagree very often. Afghan is the adjective for describing something or someone pertaining to Afghanistan.

guns at dawn

[skunk]

it was:

since you don't live here, and we're so awesome, you have no right to pass judgement. we saved you (sic) ass in WWII!!!!

</silliness>
Now we know what the "v" in "Zimv" stands for! :D

Actually, since we're all being dicks here:

afghani

adj : of or relating to or characteristic of Afghanistan or its people [syn: Afghani, Afghan, Afghanistani, afghanistani] n 1: the basic unit of money in Afghanistan 2: an Iranian language spoken in Afghanistan and Pakistan [syn: Pashto, Paxto, Afghani, Afghan]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=afghani

:cool:

[pseudobrit]

Now we know what the "v" in "Zimv" stands for! :D

Actually, since we're all being dicks here:



http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=afghani

:cool:

I use the CIA World FactBook and AP rules. The CIA is never wrong. Conveniently ignored, yes.

[pseudobrit]

guns at dawn

I don't have one.


And suddenly I totally see things Frohickey's way.

[skunk]

I don't have one.
Party-pooper! :D

[zimv20]

Now we know what the "v" in "Zimv" stands for! :D

:-)

[pseudobrit]

Party-pooper! :D

It is dawn where I am though and there's no sign of zim.

I'm sure he'll give me some excuse about the time zones or travel distance, but we all know why he didn't show.

[Abstract]

I don't have one.


<cheap shot>Notice that the only person here with a gun is from America.</cheap shot> ;)

[skunk]

<cheap shot>Notice that the only person here with a gun is from America.</cheap shot> ;)
He's just pleased to see you. :D

[wwworry]

All hail the American Empire.

I know you are being sarcastic here but there are some who actually call for empire. We talk about the complications in the area and forget that it was the British empire that drew the lines in the middle east. As they were departing they drew up countries in such a way as to PROMOTE internal conflict. It was thought that these countries would never become strong if there was internal strife.

One example is the Pashtun region. They divided that in half splitting them between Afghanistan and Pakistan (was it all india then?). Then the Kurds were divided. The Shia and the sunni were lumped in together. etc.

Very clever.

[zimv20]

It is dawn where I am though and there's no sign of zim.

I'm sure he'll give me some excuse about the time zones or travel distance, but we all know why he didn't show.
i was asleep.

you showed up? awesome. that's yer punishment! :D

[pseudobrit]

i was asleep.

you showed up? awesome. that's yer punishment! :D

I guess I won. Or maybe it was you. Either way, we had an old fashioned shootout and no one died.

Wayne LaPierre would be so disappointed.