Woodcrest vs. Clovertown

[slicecom]

I have a MacPro 1,1 2.0GHz and would like to upgrade the CPUs.

Is there a significant difference in every day performance between a 3.0GHz Woodcrest (quad core) vs. a 2.33GHz Clovertown (octo core)?

I use my computer mostly for graphic work in Photoshop, Indesign and Illustrator and also like to play the occasional game.

I ask because a Clovertown 2.33GHz goes for more than twice as much as a Woodcrest 3.0GHz, just want to see if its worth the price to go with Clovertown for my uses or not.

[Tesselator]

For most of Photoshop, all of Indesign & Illustrator and 95% of available games the 3.0 will run circles around the 2.33.

For the parts of PS that can use 8 cores the 2.33 quads will probably average about 150% of the 3.0 duals. Meaning half again as fast or as if you had 3 of the 3.0 CPUs instead of just 2. ;)

I think that's a pretty good guesstimate. Anyway, only about 30% of the the PS app, filters, and etc. are able to take good advantage of multiple cores like that. The other 70% will perform MUCH better on the 3.0GHz processors.

[sbb155]

For most of Photoshop, all of Indesign & Illustrator and 95% of available games the 3.0 will run circles around the 2.33.

For the parts of PS that can use 8 cores the 2.33 quads will probably average about 150% of the 3.0 duals. Meaning half again as fast or as if you had 3 of the 3.0 CPUs instead of just 2. ;)

I think that's a pretty good guesstimate. Anyway, only about 30% of the the PS app, filters, and etc. are able to take good advantage of multiple cores like that. The other 70% will perform MUCH better on the 3.0GHz processors.

so that begs the question---- what about compared to a single processor nehalem? For example - a dual 2.66 dual core vs. a single quad core nehalem at 2.66.....

[bozz2006]

the nehalem would destroy the woodcrest.

[slicecom]

For most of Photoshop, all of Indesign & Illustrator and 95% of available games the 3.0 will run circles around the 2.33.

For the parts of PS that can use 8 cores the 2.33 quads will probably average about 150% of the 3.0 duals. Meaning half again as fast or as if you had 3 of the 3.0 CPUs instead of just 2. ;)

I think that's a pretty good guesstimate. Anyway, only about 30% of the the PS app, filters, and etc. are able to take good advantage of multiple cores like that. The other 70% will perform MUCH better on the 3.0GHz processors.

Great response, exactly what I was looking for. Thanks! :)

[Tesselator]

NP,

Another thing you might wanna look into is a used set of 3.0GHz clovertowns. That would be the best of both worlds. 8-cores total, high speed, and you can find them pretty cheap right now (used)! About $600 - $800 for the pair. You wanna look for X5365.

[Tesselator]

the nehalem would destroy the woodcrest.

Yeah... Two x5355 vrs one X5550 would be a better comparison. One would faster at some things than the other but the X5550 would be faster "under your mouse" so to speak.

For those who don't know the model numbers that's two clovertowns (8 cores) @ 2.66 GHz vs. one nehalem @ 2.66 GHz.

You can see it in one test anyway here: http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=7270035&postcount=179 See the entry called "2.66 2006 Octad-Upgrade" and compare it with the "*** 2009 2.66 Quad" entry. :)

[bearcatrp]

the nehalem would destroy the woodcrest.

Yeah, but can you afford it? The 3.2 2008 mac pro comes close as far as performance goes. When programs are written to take advantage of 8 cores, then proper comparison can be accomplished.

[bozz2006]

agreed. I just answered the question. :D

[sbb155]

NP,

Another thing you might wanna look into is a used set of 3.0GHz clovertowns. That would be the best of both worlds. 8-cores total, high speed, and you can find them pretty cheap right now (used)! About $600 - $800 for the pair. You wanna look for X5365.

Yeah... but....
my dual 2.66 could sell for 1600 or so... add 600 for a pair, and I am in nehalem territory (I can get edu discount - and refurbs appear for 2149)...

so it probably is best to just sell and repurchase

[Tesselator]

The 3.2 2008 mac pro comes close as far as performance goes. When programs are written to take advantage of 8 cores, then proper comparison can be accomplished.

Huh? The 3.2 2008 DESTROYS the nehalem 2.66 octad let alone the 2.66 quad! - in every test, all the time, at everything - past, present, and future.

What???

[bozz2006]

That is true.

[Dr.Pants]

You never know - some paid "reviewer" could have the 3.2 8-core and the 2.66 4-core using the same amount (3 GB) of RAM; maybe the 3.2 could get starved up for memory while the 2.66 could sail along in the 32-bit world perfectly with its triple-channel. The only time a lower-clocked quad may outrun an 8-core of a higher clock....

But that doesn't mean I would run a 3.2 with that minimal amount of RAM :rolleyes:

[sbb155]

NP,

Another thing you might wanna look into is a used set of 3.0GHz clovertowns. That would be the best of both worlds. 8-cores total, high speed, and you can find them pretty cheap right now (used)! About $600 - $800 for the pair. You wanna look for X5365.

$600-$800? I am seeing that price for ONE not two.... ugh...

[Tesselator]

Yeah, you have to hunt daily. And when you find them you gotta act quick too. :) In Japan there's like 10 or 20 very good auction sites - a lot of which will list a "buy Price" if you don't wanna participate in the bidding. I usually just scan Yahoo auctions myself tho. I don't seem to see it for you yanks (http://www.yahoo.com/), but we in the tropical Orient (http://www.yahoo.co.jp/) get an auction service with our Yahoo: http://tesselator.gpmod.com/Images/Temporary/Auction_Gavel.png (http://auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/)

Anyway, if you keep looking (including at old server blades) you'll find them for that price. :cool:


EDIT:
Here's one that went for $275 on E-Bay: http://cgi.ebay.com/Intel-Xeon-Quad-Core-X5365-3-0-ghz-8M-1333-SLA4P-CPU_W0QQitemZ290328540519QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Components?hash=item4398edf567
Or maybe the "Bid History" URL will last longer(?): http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=290328540519


.

[bearcatrp]

Holy crap, thats cheaper for what I paid for 2 2.33's. But the power requirement is allot more than the the 2.33. Wasn't looking at the comparison of chips when I commented. Was thinking of the 3.2 vs the highest clocked nehalem. My bad. Send me to processor jail :eek: .

[macz1]

Pfff, either you are incredibly sensitive to time differences or you are exaggerating a little. There are no huge performance differences ("destroy", "run circles...") as you seem to believe. Photoshop performance is roughly proportional to the clock frequency in most of the cases when comparing Mac Pros with each others. Because of the Nehalem architecture being a bit more efficient, you can add 10-20% speed advantage for the same clock frequency. The difference between 4 and 8 cores does however greatly depend on the performed operation. the speed advantage of an 8 vs 4 core machine varies between 0% and 80%...

And recall the speed difference between 2.33 and 3.2 GHz seems more than it actually is, its like waiting 13.7 seconds instead of 10.... my opinion.

[Tesselator]

LOL! You don't really use your apps do you? Run 200 images through PS, edit 6 hours of HD, or render 2000 frames in a 3D renderer and then we can discuss it. If all you're doing is a 13sec. photo edit then get a mini or iMac... That's what they're for.

[sbb155]

Yeah... Two x5355 vrs one X5550 would be a better comparison. One would faster at some things than the other but the X5550 would be faster "under your mouse" so to speak.

For those who don't know the model numbers that's two clovertowns (8 cores) @ 2.66 GHz vs. one nehalem @ 2.66 GHz.

You can see it in one test anyway here: http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=7270035&postcount=179 See the entry called "2.66 2006 Octad-Upgrade" and compare it with the "*** 2009 2.66 Quad" entry. :)

your graph indicates that the 2.8 2008 octad is a great refurb deal and best of both worlds. Add an SSD boot drive, and this may be the sweet spot???

[bozz2006]

Make sure to get a good SSD. the 2.8 refurb is a sweet deal if you can find it.

[sbb155]

Make sure to get a good SSD. the 2.8 refurb is a sweet deal if you can find it.

mr bozz i sincerely wanted to thank you and tesselator for the real guidance here. it is appreciated.

[Tesselator]

NP, but Bozz had all the cool ideas... I just kibitzed. :)

[bozz2006]

Tesselator's right.:p

[gugucom]

I'm wondering if a SLA4P and a SLAED would work together. Has anybody experience with this issue. It seems that one can occasionally buy singles at good prices but one would not allways know which stepping it is. I know that the SLA4P was earlier and more expensive and worked on a different vorltage band. That seems to indicate that the two versions would not work together in a MacPro1,1.

[bozz2006]

I'm not sure, but even if some say that you could use them together, I would never use CPUs with non-matching stepping.

[gugucom]

Actually I believe SLA4P could have been an engineering sample or a synonym of SLAED (GO). SL9YZ (B3) was the different stepping shown on Wikipedia with different voltage range. I agree that different Stepping to GO should probably be avoided. I just do not know if SLA4P is GO or B3 Stepping.

http://cgi.ebay.com.my/INTEL-XEON-PROCESSOR-X5365-3-0GHZ-8MB-QUA-BX80563X5365A_W0QQitemZ370165861314QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item562f9acbc2&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A3%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

LA Micro seems to indicate that SLA4P is identical to SLAED and both GO Stepping.

[nanofrog]

Actually I believe SLA4P could have been an engineering sample or a synonym of SLAED (GO). SL9YZ (B3) was the different stepping shown on Wikipedia with different voltage range. I agree that different Stepping to GO should probably be avoided. I just do not know if SLA4P is GO or B3 Stepping.

http://cgi.ebay.com.my/INTEL-XEON-PROCESSOR-X5365-3-0GHZ-8MB-QUA-BX80563X5365A_W0QQitemZ370165861314QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item562f9acbc2&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A3%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

LA Micro seems to indicate that SLA4P is identical to SLAED and both GO Stepping.
So does Intel's processor finder page. (I searched BX80563X5365A (http://processorfinder.intel.com/List.aspx?ParentRadio=All&ProcFam=0&SearchKey=BX80563X5365A), and it came up as SLAED, so G0 stepping looks to be correct).

[OSXconvert]

It looks damn near impossible to find a used matched pair of x5365s on ebay for less than $1K. A pair sold recently for $1025, which seems insane to me. Though there are sellers asking for more than $1K just for a single new processor! It's baffling to me why the X5365 at this late date should be more expensive than some brand new nehalems which outperform them. Anyway, does somebody know another source where one might find a pair of matched X5365s? I can't see spending more than $650 for a used matched pair. If it's much more, selling my quad 2.66 and buying a used 2.8 octo would be a better deal and as fast if not faster come SL.

[gugucom]

It is the top processor of the range and it was only introduced 20 months ago. There are relatively few machines that can get an upgrade with other processor ranges and donate used chips. Scrapping used machines will probably only start at 36-48 months from introduction. These factors produce an insane used chip demand that is unbalanced by the supply.

[The Rominator]

Yeah, I was looking for 5365s and settled for 5160s.

By the time I sold my 5150s, I basically got 5160s for free.

So I now have Quad 3.0....which is going to be as fast as 5365 for MOST stuff.

Someday I'll get the 5365s....

[Tesselator]

<shrug> I see them for the $600 to $800 I mentioned almost weekly just casually surfing. It's a hit & miss numbers game I guess. But like Romulator says even if at $1000 they're worth it. :)

[gugucom]

I got lucky and snapped one up at Ebay for 221€ last week. It just arrived 10 minutes ago. I missed another opportunity for 310€ some weeks ago and I'm a bit sad now because I would have a matching pair now. So I will continue to look. I'm certainly not going to pay LA Micro their obscene price. For that you can buy them at Amazon in new condition.

[OSXconvert]

Yeah, I was looking for 5365s and settled for 5160s.

By the time I sold my 5150s, I basically got 5160s for free.

So I now have Quad 3.0....which is going to be as fast as 5365 for MOST stuff.

Someday I'll get the 5365s....

I think I will go that route as well. 5160s are pretty affordable, about $300 for a used matched pair. Since I mostly do Photoshop work, there won't be much speed difference between the 5365s and the 5160s. I imagine, as gugucom points out, that the 5365s won't drop in price until the end of the year or next year, when Apple releases the next iteration of the Mac Pro which will make the 5365 look much slower.

[zmttoxics]

Biggest difference... hmm....

Clovertown is a bigger word then Woodcrest.

[Tesselator]

When I upgraded my system from X5150s to X5355 (quad to octad @ 2.66GHz) I didn't notice much of a speed differences under my mouse so to speak. Some. But not dramatic. In all pro apps and including Maya, Lightwave3D, Photoshop, and etc. I sure noticed a difference though! A big difference! People say PS isn't multi-threaded but this is entirely untrue. It's just not all multi-threaded is all. Something like 40% ~ 60% of PS is indeed multi-threaded and having 8 cores as opposed to 4 will also indeed make a huge difference.

[southerndoc]

Does anyone think Apple will include the 3.2GHz CPU's in their latest lineup, or do you think they will skip it and wait for the next chipset?

[Tesselator]

I think there's a good likelihood that they will, yes. They did for the 2006 machines in Q4 or Q3 of 2006. :)

[nanofrog]

I think there's a good likelihood that they will, yes. They did for the 2006 machines in Q4 or Q3 of 2006. :)
Even given the current pricing structure of the '09's?

I'd think the MSRP of such a model would be too much for many to handle, even businesses. ;) Unless some price drops where issued as well. :D

[bozz2006]

Don't you think nehalem xeon chips will come down in price pretty soon?

[nanofrog]

Don't you think nehalem xeon chips will come down in price pretty soon?
From what I've seen on the MP's, Apple tends to leave the MSRP's the same over time. The part cost from Intel typically gets lower.

I've seen some claims of part shortages, but I'm not sure to their validity. If true, Intel won't lower the prices any time soon, likely reducing Apple's interest in introducing the 3.2GHz parts in the lineup. :(

[bozz2006]

From the evidence I've seen, I would imagine that Apple isn't affected by any shortages from Intel. I think they are BFFs.

And I'm not talking necessarily about Apple's prices, but rather, the price Intel charges Apple for their product. You're right, Apple's prices usually stay quite stable, and instead of dropping the price, they bump the specs and keep the price the same. That's my guess as to what will happen.

[Tesselator]

Even given the current pricing structure of the '09's?

I'd think the MSRP of such a model would be too much for many to handle, even businesses. ;) Unless some price drops where issued as well. :D

True.

But I figure if they are insane enough to ask what they are asking now then logic like yours may not apply. Or any logic for that matter. :p

[nanofrog]

From the evidence I've seen, I would imagine that Apple isn't affected by any shortages from Intel. I think they are BFFs.

And I'm not talking necessarily about Apple's prices, but rather, the price Intel charges Apple for their product. You're right, Apple's prices usually stay quite stable, and instead of dropping the price, they bump the specs and keep the price the same. That's my guess as to what will happen.
My mention of the shortages was only to give the canned answer as to why these models won't drop in price, as previous gens have.

As to Apple's pricing, I don't think it's far off, if at all this time around. As that was the likely compromise of them getting Gainestown parts earlier than any other vendors.

[Umbongo]

My mention of the shortages was only to give the canned answer as to why these models won't drop in price, as previous gens have.

As to Apple's pricing, I don't think it's far off, if at all this time around. As that was the likely compromise of them getting Gainestown parts earlier than any other vendors.

There was no compromise, other vendors had product the same time Apple did, but they honoured contracts.

[nanofrog]

There was no compromise, other vendors had product the same time Apple did, but they honoured contracts.
Could you explain/link any details o this?

[gugucom]

I just had a lucky break and thought I share this. I told the Ebay vendor of my X5365 CPU that he will have to wait some weeks or months for feedback because I was hunting for a second CPU and will not be able to test the one he send. He mailed back and offered me a second CPU which he had not offered on Ebay. We quickly agreed to use the conditions of the first deal and now I will have a pair for 442€ (618$). From this I can still detract what I will get for the 5150 pair. A worthwhile upgrade.

[bozz2006]

nice!

[bearcatrp]

Sweet deal. Wish I could have found a deal like that. Thought about upgrading again if I found a decent price but decided to sell it instead. Going to miss her but my other one will keep me busy.

[Tesselator]

Sweet deal. Wish I could have found a deal like that. Thought about upgrading again if I found a decent price but decided to sell it instead. Going to miss her but my other one will keep me busy.

You can still. $600 ~ $800 for the pair if you're willing to dedicate 30min. to an hour a day for about week, is pretty doable!

And, yeah! Congratz gugucom! Sweet system you have there! Now to max out the RAM and the RAID0 Array! :D

[gugucom]

I just saw a guy sell his 5150 pair for 212,50 US $. Is that a typical price or is it high?

[Tesselator]

I just saw a guy sell his 5150 pair for 212,50 US $. Is that a typical price or is it high?

I haven't looked at all but I guess that's about fair. Karma is kewl. If you get a great deal on something, pass the solid along.

[bozz2006]

from what I see on ebay, that is about an average deal. I've seen singles go for as low as $90, but pairs will typically get at least $200. I don't know why I feel the need to hold on to mine. I haven't had a single issue with my new 5355s, but I just haven't gotten around to selling my 5150s. I should!

[gugucom]

Now to max out the RAM and the RAID0 Array! :D

I have 4x1 GB and 4x2 GB currently fitted for a total of 12 GB. That isn't maxed out but I would have to sell the 1 GB sticks and get another 4x2 GB. That could be considerable expenditure. Is that likely to turn into performance?

I thought any upgrades from now were more likely to be 2 SSDs for a performance RAID.

[Tesselator]

I have 4x1 GB and 4x2 GB currently fitted for a total of 12 GB. That isn't maxed out but I would have to sell the 1 GB sticks and get another 4x2 GB. That could be considerable expenditure. Is that likely to turn into performance?

I thought any upgrades from now were more likely to be 2 SSDs for a performance RAID.

I have 12GB myself. As long as I close every 5th (large-ish) app I'm fine - usually.

The SSD RAID sounds like fun! :D

[gugucom]

My second X5365 arrived and the fitting went without a hitch.

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1291/gerte.jpg (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/gerte.jpg/)

It looks nicer in Vista than in OS X, LOL. So I decided to post the Windows screen shot. Sad that Leopard does not recognize the processor. It shows as unknown in profiler. After all the trouble Bozz had with his editing of the string I'm in doubt that I want to try that. Does anybody have a nice script that I could use?

[bozz2006]

Awesome Gugucom! FYI I decided to take another shot at editing what "about this mac" says about my processors. I ran into the same permissions issues again, and I didn't go any further. If you figure it out, let me know!

[gugucom]

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/5072/bild1zdj.png (http://img44.imageshack.us/i/bild1zdj.png/)

I figured it out. You unlock all folders all the way to the string folders, add yourself, give yourself writing permission.

Next you edit the string and save it.

Then you go all the way back and delete all the permissions again.

Finally you open disk utility and repair the permissions of your boot drive.

Done

[bozz2006]

sweet! What do you mean delete the permissions?

[gugucom]

sweet! What do you mean delete the permissions?

You basically undo everything in reverse what you have done to get the permission to edit the string. Obviously you do not undo the editing of the string file.

[bozz2006]

still nervous!:eek:

[gugucom]

1) allow yourself in
2) edit string and save
3) delete everything you did to allow yourself
4) repair permissions


it will work for you. I shut the Mac down and restarted it to make sure nothing went wrong.


http://tesselator.gpmod.com/Images/_Equipment_n_Tutorials/Cinebench10_Numbers.jpg

Just for motivation the cinebench scores Tess gave us in another thread. The 5365 is the 2007 in this sheet.

[bozz2006]

sweet. I'm going to give it a shot. If I hose the system again, I'll just reinstall it!

[bozz2006]

I can't open loginwindow. Got it. Just had to select "show contents" Der!

[bozz2006]

Well I did it again, and am currently repairing permissions. Hope it all goes well! I don't even know why I bother doing this, it's so vain!

[gugucom]

Well I did it again, and am currently repairing permissions. Hope it all goes well! I don't even know why I bother doing this, it's so vain!

Hey, but it will look nice, when its done!!!!!:D:D:D:D:D:D

[bozz2006]

Oh, it looks nice alright!

[Tesselator]

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/5072/bild1zdj.png (http://img44.imageshack.us/i/bild1zdj.png/)

I figured it out.
Done


But I think you got the string wrong tho. I mean if it's the same across different languages.

The dual proc systems I've looked at go like:

"2 x 2.66 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon"

where the 2.66 is replaced with whatever the advertised clock rate is.


1) allow yourself in
2) edit string and save
3) delete everything you did to allow yourself
4) repair permissions


it will work for you. I shut the Mac down and restarted it to make sure nothing went wrong.

Yeah, it worked for me too. But I copied it to the desktop first so I only needed to supply a password when replacing the edited file via overwrite.



http://tesselator.gpmod.com/Images/_Equipment_n_Tutorials/Cinebench10_Numbers.jpg

Just for motivation the cinebench scores Tess gave us in another thread. The 5365 is the 2007 in this sheet.

Oh yeah, I said I was going to add someone into that list and spaced it off. Was that you or the guy with the 3.2 Nahelem octad?

If it was you I guess the 2007 entry there already covers you?

[Tesselator]

Here's the reference thread for the strings: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=203766&highlight=About+this+mac&page=66

[gugucom]

@Tesselator

I don't mind having my own special processor string :D

This is the first time I ever had an octad core system.

I used to have a dual core AMD 64-Bit "Venice" Shuttle for 4 years until I bought a used 2,16 GHz MBP with C2D.

Then I quickly got a 1,8 GHz DP Power Mac, a 2,3 GHz Dual Core Power Mac and the 2,66 GHz MacPro1,1 Quad with the Xeon 5150 all within the last four months. This one I may keep for a while.

[Tesselator]

Hehehe, yeah, I thought about putting a funny string in mine as well. Like: Blazingly Fast & Impossible To Catch. But became shy. :)


On another note why do people keep using the prefix "octo" as a word? The word is octad. Octad like quad, is an actual noun and the correct term. :p

[gugucom]

I just got 101€ = 142 US$ for my pair of Xeon X5150 on Ebay. So the upgrade to X5365 cost me net US $ 476.

[sbb155]

interesting,
when looking at value (it is tough to equate this)
and looking at the cinebench/cost ratio, and ranking them by multi and single core render, then adding the ranks, the 2 MPs with greatest value assuming equal weighting of ratios of cinebench for single and multi core, are the 2.8 octo and the new 2.66 nehalem quad. Thus, if you believe multicore software is the future, look for a 2.8 octo. If you are on the fence, either is ok. Otherwise, look at the 2.66 nehalem quad...
The portables are terrible values for sheer horsepower.
This is only one way to look at it.

[gugucom]

actually my upgrade cost went further down. I sold the massive copper heat sinks that came with my pair of x5365 for the equivalent of 58$. So the net cost went down to 418 $. :D:D

This was the best upgrade I ever did to a system. My two SSDs also feel very nice but were more expensive.

[nanofrog]

actually my upgrade cost went further down. I sold the massive copper heat sinks that came with my pair of x5365 for the equivalent of 58$. So the net cost went down to 418 $. :D:D

This was the best upgrade I ever did to a system. My two SSDs also feel very nice but were more expensive.
Nice. :D Well worth it at that cost. ;)

[gugucom]

I just maxed my cinebench!

With Vista 64 and one SSD I got over 20.000. I knew these SSDs would make an improvement as the 64 bit is better than Leopard at the moment. Can't wait for SL for rendering.

[slicecom]

I just maxed my cinebench!

With Vista 64 and one SSD I got over 20.000. I knew these SSDs would make an improvement as the 64 bit is better than Leopard at the moment. Can't wait for SL for rendering.

I thought SL wouldn't run in 64 bit mode on a MacPro 1,1?

[gugucom]

No idea, I'm not a tester. But I expect them to find some improvements over Windows, or it would be rather crass.

[PurpleLogix]

Quick question on x5365 upgrade.

Do they have to be active or passive type cpu's

Thanks

[bozz2006]

is there a difference between active & passive CPUs? I thought that all had to do with the heat sink.

[PurpleLogix]

Thats what I thought as well, just want to make sure before I rip open the beast and give it a heart transplant.

I guess it doen't matter?

[gugucom]

Make sure to get a good SSD. the 2.8 refurb is a sweet deal if you can find it.

Just as a point of interest. I learned the hard way that many Raid cards (like Highpoint RR2642) do not work with SSDs. I had Supertalent MEs which are same as some OCZ models. I switched to Intel X25 2nd Gen and all was smooth.

[bozz2006]

i would love to get my hands on a couple of those!