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NNO-Stephen
Jun 3, 2004, 12:29 AM
No problems and no speed bumps. Also, there is still no conclusive evidence that the 975 even exists.


yes there is evidence. I forget where, but I read an article somewhere that stated that a POWER 5 derivative was being developed along with the POWER 5, unlike the PPC 970 which was an afterthought of the POWER 4. Being that the PPC 97x (P5 derivative) was developed along size the POWER 5, it's no stretch to think that it shouldn't be completed and that Apple had some early samples long ago, enough time to design a new PowerMac around and/or make changes to the existing enclosure/motherboard that are necessary. IBM already has servers running on POWER 5, so this really isn't far fetched at all.

Wyrm
Jun 3, 2004, 12:53 AM
I seriously doubt Apple would do this. Why? Accounting. I don't think it would be worthwhile for them to hold back revenue. They can't show a sale on the books until the systems ship. Therefore, wouldn't it be more likely that they would ship as many as they could as fast as they could?

However, I'll throw reason/caution to the wind and indulge you for a moment. Here's a nice rumor:

Apple has actually been manufactoring G5 iMac-like computers for 4 months. They could not hold up the production line so they had to use a large number of the available .90 G5's to keep the line going. This effectively lengthened the wait times for the G5 XServes. While it hurt overall revenue in the short term, Apple had to make this move so as to not shut down the G5-iMac factory and thus incur a larger financial burden. However, the supply problem will mean no new G5 PowerMacs at WWDC. The new PowerMacs will follow two to three months later as G5 supplies increase.

Okay, how's that for wild speculation? :D

Wild wild speculation... too wild.

Apple uses contract manufacturers, like Foxconn, to make their boxes, so it's a problem of getting all the parts to Foxconn and then do a run (say 60,000 units or so). There's not much penalty for storing the parts if something constrains your run, and if Foxconn is not doing your run, they are doing someone else's. So I don't think there's much of a penalty for leaving your factory "idle" in this sense.

IBM just couldn't ship enough processors to start a run.

-Wyrm

.a
Jun 3, 2004, 08:04 AM
IBM just couldn't ship enough processors to start a run.

-Wyrm

so, i just hope, ibm had a lot of time since the g5's introduction to produce those new procs (and something tells me, they had enough time:)
and therefore apple had also a lot of time to do some nice g5 rev b work - they simply have to!

i just hope, those new machines will be available short time after the wwdc show ... no new xserve-g5-waiting-5-months-mess ...
.a

dongmin
Jun 3, 2004, 10:20 AM
yes there is evidence. I forget where, but I read an article somewhere that stated that a POWER 5 derivative was being developed along with the POWER 5, unlike the PPC 970 which was an afterthought of the POWER 4. Being that the PPC 97x (P5 derivative) was developed along size the POWER 5, it's no stretch to think that it shouldn't be completed and that Apple had some early samples long ago, enough time to design a new PowerMac around and/or make changes to the existing enclosure/motherboard that are necessary. IBM already has servers running on POWER 5, so this really isn't far fetched at all.WRONG. There is no evidence, beyond wild speculation by random people. I've been following this line of rumors closely (as have a lot of other people on this forum) and about the only thing that comes close to substance is a repost of some third-party article on the IBM Taiwan site. Arn even posted something a few days back stating as much (that no solid evidence exists) just to tone down the frenzy.

Repeat after me, the 975/980 DOES NOT EXIST. Yet. It's logical to ASSUME that such a development exist given statements by IBM/APPLE that they're contracted for 5 generations of PPCs (or is it 5 years?). And we know that the 970 was based on the Power 4. So add 1 + 1 and we get the 975/980. But that's pure speculation at this point.

dongmin
Jun 3, 2004, 10:43 AM
many seem to forget that Apple could just engineer a 970 Imac. 975 for powermac, 970 for imac ,sort of like G3 imac vs G4 powermac from a few years ago. 970s have been in production with no problems for a year!

I doubt Apple could fit a 970 in the 1.6-2.0 ghz range in the iMac form factor. It's too darn hot. Isn't it something like 42W for the 1.8 ghz??? The Xserves are at 2.0 ghz with the 970fx (24.5W), and that's with constant fan-blowing and huge air holes in the front.

Most likely, Apple will introduce 970fx iMacs in the 1.6-2.0 ghz range with the lower end models available immediately (since they've had a while to hoard the lower-clocked chips) and the 2.0 ghz model way later, maybe as late as mid-August. That's 2.5 months for IBM to fab enough 970fxs at 2.0 to go around. I think it's doable.

The Power Mac is a whole another story.

iriejedi
Jun 3, 2004, 11:38 AM
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1606164,00.asp

This is a great article - while it is PC-centric - it compares the Intel P4 top of line to the AMD Top of Line, 3.4gig vs 2.4 gig respectivly.

Go to the 3D game scores link and note that by a large margin with all else nearly 100% equal as possible.... the 64 bit that runs 'faster' and from what I've heard 'cooler' then a 33% speedier P4 - I'd say the AMD chip kicked but over the Intell's P4 dispite the 1 gigahertz difference.

While there are some pricing issues.. it proves that 64bit is the key and the whole mhz myth is gone... personally, I bet even a gen one G5 would blow these specs away if it were added into the mix... but for now people... quit uing the mhz of a P4 agains the mhz of a 64 bit G5! Even in PC land - there is proof that 3.4 gig is not all that special! :rolleyes:

Iriejedi




Hey thatwendigo, i allways think of high end Pcs like say alienware when comparing to imac, for $1700 i can buy a alienware machine that will almost match a powermac G5 let alone smoke a Imac. In this price category they have real video cards. Even base aurora has a 9600xt which is better then what you get in a new dual G5 which has a 9600 pro. Apple needs a model that says look at me with performance to match if its going to bring in new users. current imac is sweet and very nice but its performance is very poor and probably is about the same as a P4 running at 2.0 how long ago did they stop making P4s at 2.0? catch my drift? Anyways after lots of looking i couldnt ever go out and switch to pc. so ill just keep waiting hoping that one day Apple does what it should have done a year ago and that is make a imac that has respectable performance with a decent cpu & gpu.

Apple really needs a computer that calls in the masses(high end consumers) and right now they just dont have one. dual G5 is great for the pro's but a single G4 at 1.25 doesnt cut the mustard in todays age of video games,movie editing and what have you. 26 days and counting ;)

Frobozz
Jun 3, 2004, 12:39 PM
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=474

AppleInsider just updated today with photos of the new G5. It's coming, and it's obivious from the internal changes that faster RAM and a different processors are coming. It appears from the photo that the line-up could be exclusively dual processor and/or use a different cooling technology.

Frobozz
Jun 3, 2004, 12:44 PM
Repeat after me, the 975/980 DOES NOT EXIST.

Just because you keep repeating that, doesn't make it true ... there's a lot of evidence in both hard copy and in rumor to suggest that the chip not only exists, but is going into the WWDC release of the G5 this year.

maverick13
Jun 3, 2004, 02:07 PM
WRONG. There is no evidence, beyond wild speculation by random people. I've been following this line of rumors closely (as have a lot of other people on this forum) and about the only thing that comes close to substance is a repost of some third-party article on the IBM Taiwan site. Arn even posted something a few days back stating as much (that no solid evidence exists) just to tone down the frenzy.

Repeat after me, the 975/980 DOES NOT EXIST. Yet. It's logical to ASSUME that such a development exist given statements by IBM/APPLE that they're contracted for 5 generations of PPCs (or is it 5 years?). And we know that the 970 was based on the Power 4. So add 1 + 1 and we get the 975/980. But that's pure speculation at this point.

What was the deal with IBM exactly? 5 generations, 5 years? Anyone know?
And what happens when these generations/year pass? Renew contract? Change cpu company,again?

Maverick

pjkelnhofer
Jun 3, 2004, 05:02 PM
Just because you keep repeating that, doesn't make it true ... there's a lot of evidence in both hard copy and in rumor to suggest that the chip not only exists, but is going into the WWDC release of the G5 this year.

Where is there any hard copy evidence (and printing out AppleInsider pages doesn't count)? Fact is that IBM has yet to announce what the next chip will be and both 975 and 980 are nothing but vaporware so far.

Telomar
Jun 4, 2004, 04:37 AM
WRONG. There is no evidence, beyond wild speculation by random people. I've been following this line of rumors closely (as have a lot of other people on this forum) and about the only thing that comes close to substance is a repost of some third-party article on the IBM Taiwan site. Arn even posted something a few days back stating as much (that no solid evidence exists) just to tone down the frenzy.

Repeat after me, the 975/980 DOES NOT EXIST. Yet. It's logical to ASSUME that such a development exist given statements by IBM/APPLE that they're contracted for 5 generations of PPCs (or is it 5 years?). And we know that the 970 was based on the Power 4. So add 1 + 1 and we get the 975/980. But that's pure speculation at this point.What your saying isn't entirely true. In fact I have an IBM presentation from earlier this year with roadmap attached that proves as much. For reference the next PowerPC from IBM has a development name of GR-UL. What the final term will be is very much undecided I expect except that it will be 97 and not 98. It'd also be quite a safe assumption to think that there's a dual core version coming in oh...late 2005. Right about when one might expect a G6 in fact and right about the time Microsoft will be wanting their multi-core PPC 97x's ;)

pjkelnhofer
Jun 4, 2004, 09:14 AM
What your saying isn't entirely true. In fact I have an IBM presentation from earlier this year with roadmap attached that proves as much. For reference the next PowerPC from IBM has a development name of GR-UL. What the final term will be is very much undecided I expect except that it will be 97 and not 98. It'd also be quite a safe assumption to think that there's a dual core version coming in oh...late 2005. Right about when one might expect a G6 in fact and right about the time Microsoft will be wanting their multi-core PPC 97x's ;)

I agree it is safe to assume that IBM would try to continually improve the 97x family, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no proof that they are actually producing either a 975 or 980 chip that will be ready to ship soon enough for Steve to announce them at WWDC.

This (http://www.fz-juelich.de/zam/files/docs/vortraege/ibm-nutzung/hh_pwr4_arch.2up.pdf) is the only reference to the "GR-UL" 97X chip that I could find (not the GR-UL moniker was also used by the current 970 - any guesses what this stands for). It doesn't say much other than at some point after the 970 chip there will be a 97X chip that should run at 2.5GHz+. Could it be running at 3 GHz and three weeks away from being announced in G5's. Sure it could. That doesn't change the fact that there is currently zero proof of it's current existence.

Telomar
Jun 4, 2004, 10:13 AM
The current PPC 970 was the GP-UL. GP was the code for the original POWER4, GR is the POWER5. UL stands for ultra-lite. IBM Germany I think it was also at one stage leaked speeds for the 970 of 1.8 to 2.5 GHz. Odd coincidence that that's right where the roadmapped successor follows on from.

Whether it'll appear at WWDC is another matter but you can be pretty certain given last WWDC Steve Jobs and IBM stated 3 GHz around the end of summer they were planning on it being that chip since that roadmap you produced dates back to May 2003.

pjkelnhofer
Jun 4, 2004, 10:31 AM
The current PPC 970 was the GP-UL. GP was the code for the original POWER4, GR is the POWER5. UL stands for ultra-lite. IBM Germany I think it was also at one stage leaked speeds for the 970 of 1.8 to 2.5 GHz. Odd coincidence that that's right where the roadmapped successor follows on from.

Whether it'll appear at WWDC is another matter but you can be pretty certain given last WWDC Steve Jobs and IBM stated 3 GHz around the end of summer they were planning on it being that chip since that roadmap you produced dates back to May 2003.

So then based on the German PDF, the next generation PPC97X chip will be based on Power5 architecture and not Power4 (GR-UL vs. GP-UL). The bigger question is when. Judging by the powerpoint slide that references it, sometime after the start of 2004 is all we know.

wdlove
Jun 4, 2004, 11:06 AM
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=474

AppleInsider just updated today with photos of the new G5. It's coming, and it's obvious from the internal changes that faster RAM and a different processors are coming. It appears from the photo that the line-up could be exclusively dual processor and/or use a different cooling technology.

Thank you for posting the link Frobozz. ;) I'm pleased to see that the case itself will be the same, happen to love the design. I can see the obvious differences in the photos. It appears that instead of two distinct G5 compartments, that there will only be one. Could you explain the ideas circled in yellow? I will admit that I'm not technically savvy, so have no idea what being pointed out. Thank you! :)

pjkelnhofer
Jun 4, 2004, 11:43 AM
Since there is a chance that 10.3.4 might be the last update to Panther, this only means that we'll see new models between now and year's end (i.e. the release of Tiger).

There is always a chance that any update could be the last before the next major upgrade. Apple could always release new machines and simply come out with 10.3.5 just to add support for them. Maybe, these are the only machines they know will be ready before 10.3.5.

pjkelnhofer
Jun 4, 2004, 11:48 AM
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=474

AppleInsider just updated today with photos of the new G5. It's coming, and it's obivious from the internal changes that faster RAM and a different processors are coming. It appears from the photo that the line-up could be exclusively dual processor and/or use a different cooling technology.

There is a thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=74113&page=1&pp=25) about this. I agree assuming the photos are real (no reason to assume otherwise right now), there is clearly a different motherboard, so a different processor could very be under the (rather large) heatsink.