Building a PC from scratch

[IJ Reilly]

Yeah, I'm going to do it. (I have my reasons, and no, I'm not giving up my Macs.)

Does anyone know a good source of motherboards, power supplies, cases, and all that other junk you need to build a PC from scratch?

I realize this might not be the best place to ask, but I trust my Mac brethren more than the PC rabble, to give me good advice. :)

[dopefiend]

www.newegg.com
www.pricewatch.com
www.tomshardware.com
http://www.anandtech.com

Have fun, your going to enjoy it! :D

and use anantech's forums for help instead of here :p

[Apple //e]

the best

[dopefiend]

the best

Not always ;)

[Calvinatir]

yea...newegg is the best...overnight shipping (for west coast at least), great customer service, best websight i have ever bought from

[IJ Reilly]

Wow, that was fast -- thanks! (I'm really going to enjoy it? Really? :) )

I'm looking to build a mid-range PC, something around a 2.8 P4, decent video card, unobtrusive tower. Nothing extravagant. Any thoughts?

I'm wondering about how large the power supply should be, that sort of thing.

[Calvinatir]

most likely..unless you are RAIDing drives and using several potical drives the powersuply that comes with your case is manageable..I use a 410W Enermax hard drive and i like it..but it was $80 when i bought it.

[Dont Hurt Me]

make sure you load up on virus protection :D I was thinking of doing the same but decided i like my free time. :eek:

[dopefiend]

make sure you load up on virus protection :D I was thinking of doing the same but decided i like my free time. :eek:

A smart man needs no virus protection with Windows ;)

Just a firewall will suffice.

[Calvinatir]

I dont use a firewall or virus protection with my PC, i just use common sense, the best virus protection out there! I never had used anything..it just pissed me off with the memory and speed it uses, useless software

[Sun Baked]

Yeah, I'm going to do it. (I have my reasons, and no, I'm not giving up my Macs.)

Does anyone know a good source of motherboards, power supplies, cases, and all that other junk you need to build a PC from scratch?

I realize this might not be the best place to ask, but I trust my Mac brethren more than the PC rabble, to give me good advice. :)You call that building a PC from scratch...

When Heath-Zenith was around people actually got a box of chips, capacitors, resitors, blank boards and wires to solder together.

Heck all you're doing is assembling a boxes of pre-built parts.
Any PC using monkey can do that. http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12555&stc=1

[vwguy]

Or you can get a Dell Server 400SC and build on top of it.... this server has all the goodies of the high end PC etc and it will cost you just a quarter of the total cost. I did it and works pretty good....

here's a FAQ on how to do it... http://www.aaltonen.us/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8.

[Elbeano]

My personal method for getting the best price you can is to pick out exactly what you want on newegg because they very rarely have what I'm looking for. Print out your list of junk and then (using the dual monitors I hope you have) put www.newegg.com on one monitor and www.zipzoomfly.com (previously googlegear) on the other. Look up each item by price number and order whichever one is cheaper. I've saved upwards of 50 dollars on various systems by using this method.

Personal preferances:
Processor: AMD (my 2400+ at home generally runs circles around the 2.6 P4 that I use at work)
Motherboard: Gigabyte or ASUS
Ram: Crucial
Antec cases are a good balance of style, quality, and price
Most of the Antec cases on newegg come with a decent power supply, and honestly unless you get a video card that requires a seperate power connection, and are using multiple hard drives and optical drives, you'll be OK. 350 to 400 watt range should be more than enough.
ATI 9600 XT is a very good value for the money.
Get rounded cables for the IDE drives.

My personal recommendation is to only put a hard drive in the case. No optical drives or a floppy. This cuts down on your wires and clutter, and keeps a nice air flow going through the case. Then buy USB2.0 enclosures for any additional hard drives or optical drives that you want. As soon as I check the rules for these forums again I will see if I can post pictures of my machine.

[Dont Hurt Me]

You call that building a PC from scratch...

When Heath-Zenith was around people actually got a box of chips, capacitors, resitors, blank boards and wires to solder together.

Heck all you're doing is assembling a boxes of pre-built parts.
Any PC using monkey can do that. http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12555&stc=1Aint that the truth, are they still around?

[Elbeano]

Allright, I'm going to see if I can post the picture of my PC baby.

[Dont Hurt Me]

A smart man needs no virus protection with Windows ;)

Just a firewall will suffice.A smarter man uses a Mac. ;)

[quagmire]

My brother got his parts to build his pc and my sisters pc. If you are going to build a pc,please get an amd. I just hate intels.

http://www.tigerdirect.com

[IJ Reilly]

Personal preferances:
Processor: AMD (my 2400+ at home generally runs circles around the 2.6 P4 that I use at work)
Motherboard: Gigabyte or ASUS
Ram: Crucial
Antec cases are a good balance of style, quality, and price
Most of the Antec cases on newegg come with a decent power supply, and honestly unless you get a video card that requires a seperate power connection, and are using multiple hard drives and optical drives, you'll be OK. 350 to 400 watt range should be more than enough.
ATI 9600 XT is a very good value for the money.
Get rounded cables for the IDE drives.


Okay, getting down to specifics, which AMD mobo do you like? I see newegg's got the P4 2.8E for $179.00. I'm having a hard time locating an AMD board with same sort of specs (esp. bus speed). Also, I'm not seeing a manufacturer's name on the boards. How do I know if I'm getting a well-made one?

[IJ Reilly]

My brother got his parts to build his pc and my sisters pc. If you are going to build a pc,please get an amd. I just hate intels.

http://www.tigerdirect.com

Why do you hate Intel?

(BTW, I've had terrible experiences with Tiger in years past!)

[IJ Reilly]

You call that building a PC from scratch...

When Heath-Zenith was around people actually got a box of chips, capacitors, resitors, blank boards and wires to solder together.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... tell me about it. :D

My family's biggest Heathkit project was color TV, circa 1970.

[quagmire]

I like this AMD. It may be slower then the intel, but don't forget what intel has just announced about clockspeed.


http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=586899&Sku=CP2-XP32004BC

[Dont Hurt Me]

Allright, I'm going to see if I can post the picture of my PC baby.Thats nice but still not as clean as a powermac. Apple does have a clean design and they were the one who brought forward the see through design (imac) how many years ago? in fact my old 333 is still going strong with my stepdaughter. :p

[Elbeano]

The AMD's bus speed only goes up to 400. Although technically both P4's that have an "800 mhz" bus and Athalons that have a "400 mhz" bus operate at 200 mhz anyway. I'm not exactly sure what you're doing with this machine, but unless it's video encoding or some other pure number crunching thing, I'd go for an AMD. An AMD 2500+ with a Barton core has 512k of level 2 cache. Even though the technical clock speed is like 1.8ghz it is still very speedy for being 80 bucks. The money you could save over the P4 could be put in to a better video card, and you would notice better gaming performance from that upgrade anyway, if that's what you're in to.

As far as the motherboard goes, the one that I have in that picture is an ASUS of some sort. I forget exactly, but it only goes up to 200mhz FSB anyway, so you don't want that. Get either an ASUS or a Gigabyte with the nForce 2 chipset. That will let you use any athalon processor out, and dual channel ram if you're in to that sort of thing. Other than that you're just looking at whether or not it has firewire, optical, raid, or anything else you think you might need.

[Elbeano]

Thats nice but still not as clean as a powermac. Apple does have a clean design and they were the one who brought forward the see through design (imac) how many years ago? in fact my old 333 is still going strong with my stepdaughter. :p

It might not be as clean as your powermac, but I made it, and I sure put a lot of effort in to it. It also cost probably about 1/6th as much as a powermac. It was also a lot of fun.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Okay, getting down to specifics, which AMD mobo do you like? I see newegg's got the P4 2.8E for $179.00. I'm having a hard time locating an AMD board with same sort of specs (esp. bus speed). Also, I'm not seeing a manufacturer's name on the boards. How do I know if I'm getting a well-made one?Toms hardware has some good info on motherboards, go there. also use socket 939

[Maclarny]

If you're willing to put in around 1000 dollars for the PC you can build yourself an athlon64 2800+ pc. I used an MSI motherboard for my athlon64 3000+ which i built a few months ago and it works very well! USE NEWEGG.COM. I've had some major problems with tigerdirect in the past.

[IJ Reilly]

Toms hardware has some good info on motherboards, go there. also use socket 939

It looks like this this only available in Athlon64, or did I miss something? I'm trying to stay midrange here -- under $800 if possible including Windows.

[kelvinz]

the best value right now is the amd mobile 2500xp+ it overclock VERY well.

[Elbeano]

Unfortunately there isn't much of a way of getting around dropping a chunk of change on XP. Your best bet is to get the educational OEM XP Pro upgrade on newegg for like 82 bucks. I'm actually an educator, so I can do this legit. However, you only have to say yes to some question on NewEgg, and they don't require any proof of employment. Then you can do one of two things. If you happen to have a buddy that has a full install disc, you use that to install, and then use the serial number that came with your disk. Or, if you can get your hands on any sort of windows disc, 98 or more recent, you can pop that in while doing an install to satisfy the upgrade requirement.

I definately wouldn't waste the money on one of the athalon 64's though. There are even fewer 64 bit optomized programs for PC right now than for mac.

[IJ Reilly]

Here's what I'm looking at now:

AMD Athlon XP 2800 (retail, w/fan)
Antec SX 635BII Case (350w PS)
512 Mb DC 333 RAM
80 GB HD Ultra/100 7200 rpm
48x Combo
Saffire ATI 9800 PRO 128mb
10/100 NIC
Mouse (optical)
KB
Speakers
Win XP Home

I've only started pricing this out, but I think I get bring it in for under $800.00. Any comments, or gotchas I should know about here? Anything missing?

[IJ Reilly]

Unfortunately there isn't much of a way of getting around dropping a chunk of change on XP. Your best bet is to get the educational OEM XP Pro upgrade on newegg for like 82 bucks. I'm actually an educator, so I can do this legit. However, you only have to say yes to some question on NewEgg, and they don't require any proof of employment. Then you can do one of two things. If you happen to have a buddy that has a full install disc, you use that to install, and then use the serial number that came with your disk. Or, if you can get your hands on any sort of windows disc, 98 or more recent, you can pop that in while doing an install to satisfy the upgrade requirement.

I have the Win-98 install for Virtual PC. Would it work? If I understand what you're saying, it sounds like I'd need two optical drives.

Retail for a full XP-home at discount is around $150.00.

[Calvinatir]

the 10/100 ethernet will come with the motherboard on most ALL new motherboards, get the KB/Optical mouse combo on newegg..save some bucks; the difference between 80 GB and 120 GB is a mere 10-15 bucks..may as well go 120; newegg offers an 8X dvd burner for $82, get a GB of ram if possible, i put a 512 chip in my XP 1900 over 2 years ago; Good luck with it all

[quagmire]

Here's what I'm looking at now:

AMD Athlon XP 2800 (retail, w/fan)
Antec SX 635BII Case (350w PS)
512 Mb DC 333 RAM
80 GB HD Ultra/100 7200 rpm
48x Combo
Saffire ATI 9800 PRO 128mb
10/100 NIC
Mouse (optical)
KB
Speakers
Win XP Home

I've only started pricing this out, but I think I get bring it in for under $800.00. Any comments, or gotchas I should know about here? Anything missing?

I would really like to advise you to get windows pro. Being a former windows user, I used both XP home and windows XP pro. Pro is much better in response, doesn't crash as much, and has better sercurity( with my experience, don't know about others).

[Elbeano]

I am almost completely certain that the VPC disc will not suffice for the windows upgrade.

You won't need two optical drives if you get an upgrade disc. If you are doing a clean install on a blank hard drive, you will be prompted at some point in the installation process to insert a cd from a previous windows version. For XP I believe it requires 98 or later. You don't need the serial for the original disc, and I think it can even be an upgrade itself. If you know ANYONE who has any sort of gateway, dell, HP, or perhaps even one of the dozens of other ill fated companies from the late 90's, talk to them. The further back toward the 98 era the better, because starting around ME the computer companies started making proprietary recovery discs, and I'm not certain you could use one of those for the part in question for the XP installation. If they did come with a full install disc for any of the windows versions, you're going to be in luck.

If not, my father has a full install disc for XP pro that he'd be willing to part with for about $100. He just got a new PC with XP home, so he doesn't need the old one any more. I'd keep it, but my educator's upgrade copy works just fine when I pop in my old 98 disc. However, if you can find someone that has any old windows disc, I'd get one of the upgrades, because they're only about 80. I've used them for about 5 or 6 machines, and they work just fine.

PS. Drop the extra 6 bucks or so on the real 9800 pro. It's 222 for the ATI retail version of it on newegg, as opposed to 216 for the sapphire.

[IJ Reilly]

I would really like to advise you to get windows pro. Being a former windows user, I used both XP home and windows XP pro. Pro is much better in response, doesn't crash as much, and has better sercurity( with my experience, don't know about others).

What are the differences between XP Pro and Amateur? I thought it was strictly a matter of features and services.

[IJ Reilly]

PS. Drop the extra 6 bucks or so on the real 9800 pro. It's 222 for the ATI retail version of it on newegg, as opposed to 216 for the sapphire.

So confusing, this part. I thought I found the Sapphire on newegg for quite a bit less -- $179 I think, when I searched the site, but now I can't find it. This was less than the advertised price on the front page. Any significant difference between this card and the 9600 you recommended?

[IJ Reilly]

I am almost completely certain that the VPC disc will not suffice for the windows upgrade.

In "the interests of science" I will probably go for the full retail package. This is in part an experiment to test whether rolling your own is really significantly cheaper than buying retail. I've already priced out a similar system at Dell (a 2.8 P4 instead of a AMD since Dell doesn't do AMD).

[dopefiend]

What are the differences between XP Pro and Amateur? I thought it was strictly a matter of features and services.

Some people migh think Pro runs better, but its mostly just them thinking that.

Pro actually adds more processes running, which takes up more memory. I'm willing to make a huge bet in saying that you won't need the added features of Pro.

Here is a site that list the features:

clicky (http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/windowsxp_home_pro.asp)

Just an fyi though: If your getting a 64bit chip, get a free copy of winodws 64 bit XP ;)

[caveman_uk]

Here's what I'm looking at now:

AMD Athlon XP 2800 (retail, w/fan)
Antec SX 635BII Case (350w PS)
512 Mb DC 333 RAM
80 GB HD Ultra/100 7200 rpm
48x Combo
Saffire ATI 9800 PRO 128mb
10/100 NIC
Mouse (optical)
KB
Speakers
Win XP Home

I've only started pricing this out, but I think I get bring it in for under $800.00. Any comments, or gotchas I should know about here? Anything missing?

ArsTechnica (http://arstechnica.com/guide/system/index.html) do DIY system recommendations in three categories - budget, hot-rod and god-box - so you may like to get some ideas off of them. From your price range it looks like the budget box is for you...

Incidently, you missed out a motherboard from your pricing. ;)

[Elbeano]

So confusing, this part. I thought I found the Sapphire on newegg for quite a bit less -- $179 I think, when I searched the site, but now I can't find it. This was less than the advertised price on the front page. Any significant difference between this card and the 9600 you recommended?

If you found a sapphire for 180 then it was probably the OEM version, or it wasn't even the pro. Keep in mind you can also find what is called a 9800SE which is basically nothing more than an even cheaper version of the 9600. The significant differences between the 9600 series and the 9800 series is the rendering pipelines. 8 on the 9800, and 4 on the 9600. Until the absolute most recent batch of cards from nVidia and ATI the only cards that had 8 were the 9800, 9700, and 9500. However, the 9500 ran so slow that I believe for most gaming and such a 9600XT would spank it.

Even if you can get a 9800 pro sapphire for 180 I'd still go for the real ATI one in the full retail box for 222. When you're spending this amount of money, another 40 bucks isn't going to break the bank.

In "the interests of science" I will probably go for the full retail package. This is in part an experiment to test whether rolling your own is really significantly cheaper than buying retail. I've already priced out a similar system at Dell (a 2.8 P4 instead of a AMD since Dell doesn't do AMD).

In the pure intrest of science, I would take any advantage you can get. Especially since microsoft is likely pretty much giving away XP to harware vendors, they start ahead of you. If you're still really bent on a full install though, I think there is an OEM version of XP home for a little over 100. That will be a full install, it's just supposed to be sold with hardware. Since you're building a machine, that's completely legit.

Also, here are some of the things "XP Professional Offers" straight from the box:
"All the features of Windows XP Home Edition, including a new visual design and complete digital media support.
Premier mobile support for the ability to work offline or access your computer remotely.
Greater security, including the ability to encrypt your files and folders.
Built-in support for high performance multiprocessor systems.
Designed to work with Microsoft Windows Servers and management solutions."

[JasonElise1983]

if you really want Windows XP Pro, i have a corporate edition that me and some friends went in together and bought. If you would like, i can send it your way. Just let me know.

macmevideo@excite.com

[IJ Reilly]

Yes, I realize now I forgot the motherboard. This is such an adventure. I checked out numerous ASUS boards on newegg in the $80 price range. On most of these boards, the user reports are sharply split between people who love 'em and people who hate 'em, with virtually nothing in between. I suspect the difference is mainly the luck of the draw.

Who can sell me an OEM edition of XP?

[Elbeano]

I have a full on, no strings attatched, not an upgrade, not an educational version, not an OEM version, fully legit copy of XP Pro. The only difference between it and what you would buy in a store now for 300 dollars is that it doesn't include service pack 1. However, this is easily downloaded through windows update. Asking price is 100 shipped as long as you're in the US.

On newegg an OEM full install of Home is 91, and an OEM full install of XP Pro is 141. Neither are very shabby.

[ToddW]

Yes, I realize now I forgot the motherboard. This is such an adventure. I checked out numerous ASUS boards on newegg in the $80 price range. On most of these boards, the user reports are sharply split between people who love 'em and people who hate 'em, with virtually nothing in between. I suspect the difference is mainly the luck of the draw.

Who can sell me an OEM edition of XP?

Thought I could help you out a bit.

Athlon XP 2500
Abit NF7-S mobo
2x512MB Crucial XMS PC 2700
ATI 9800 pro or 9600 XT chipset graphics card
OEM Win XP Home
Antec case
SATA HD 80GB Seagate or Western Digital

you should be all set, it will probably be a little bit over 800.

[Capt Underpants]

Has anyone ever heard of these guys (http://www.cyberpowersystem.com/) ? They seem to have really good prices on systems.

[sparky76]

I suggest you spend on items that have to be junked, not upgraded cheaply, like monitor, case, etc. Others can be easily changed later. For the same reasonl, try to get a good mobo - it is more future-proofed and less of a pain to change later.
I have built a couple of PC's and it is very satisfying to boot it up for the first time. Good luck.
Also, you can get 64 Windows XP (beta) for free from Microsoft, so it may be worth spending on an Athlon 64, as you will save having to buy Win XP.

[IJ Reilly]

Thought I could help you out a bit.

Athlon XP 2500
Abit NF7-S mobo
2x512MB Crucial XMS PC 2700
ATI 9800 pro or 9600 XT chipset graphics card
OEM Win XP Home
Antec case
SATA HD 80GB Seagate or Western Digital

you should be all set, it will probably be a little bit over 800.

How did you pick this motherboard? I find this to be the most difficult part, with so many choices and so much conflicting information about them.

[IJ Reilly]

I have a full on, no strings attatched, not an upgrade, not an educational version, not an OEM version, fully legit copy of XP Pro. The only difference between it and what you would buy in a store now for 300 dollars is that it doesn't include service pack 1. However, this is easily downloaded through windows update. Asking price is 100 shipped as long as you're in the US.

On newegg an OEM full install of Home is 91, and an OEM full install of XP Pro is 141. Neither are very shabby.

I'll consider that. Thanks.

[&RU]

Hello IJ,

Here is a company that makes some very attractive machines, and you can get them barebones if you like -- I am looking at them myself.

http://www.hoojum.com/

[dopefiend]

Has anyone ever heard of these guys (http://www.cyberpowersystem.com/) ? They seem to have really good prices on systems.


Yes, I have ordered from them. They are great systems!

[Capt Underpants]

Yes, I have ordered from them. They are great systems!
Sweet! They have awesome prices. I think I'll be ordering a gaming system from them pretty soon.

[Elbeano]

I wouldn't worry so much about a motherboard being "future proof" right now in the PC area. ESPECIALLY because of BTX this year. The newest pc right now is going to be nothing like the newest PC 8 months from now, so it doesn't matter much. As far as the difference between an 80 dollar motherboard and a 200 dollar motherboard, you're honestly not looking at a lot. Things like firewire, onboard optical, gigabit ethernet, raid, and SATA are all the distinguish them. If you're looking for firewire you can get a PCI card for about 20 bucks, give or take a few, so that's not a big deal. As far as any onboard digital sound or 5.1, any onboard sound in my experience sounds like trash compared to a 30 dollar sound card anyway. I had onboard optical on one of my motherboards, and the sound quality paled in comparison to the headphone jack on my 12" PB. If you want to do raid, then you're definately going to want the on board stuff, and that'll cost you. However, even if you aren't sure you want to mess with it you can always get a PCI card for that too.


In order to simplify things for you I think I will narrow down your choices to two motherboards.

ASUS (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=13-131-478&DEPA=0)

Gigabyte (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=13-128-199&DEPA=0)

If you don't need the raid you can step back to the simpler versions of these two motherboards without raid for about 25 bucks cheaper each.

[ToddW]

How did you pick this motherboard? I find this to be the most difficult part, with so many choices and so much conflicting information about them.


Well after building a hellauva lot of PC's this is currently my favorite mobo to work with. My PC (gaming) rig is what I pretty much posted. Those motherboards go for around 80 bucks now. I have built systems for people and built myself some systems that have gigabyte and asus mobos in them and when i used the NF7-S and the Athlon 2500 XP it runs very stable like it was a 3200 XP. you can check out amdmb.com for reviews on different motherboards, or if you have some specific questions, pm me and i will be glad to answer them.

good luck!

[dopefiend]

Sweet! They have awesome prices. I think I'll be ordering a gaming system from them pretty soon.


Good luck, their prices seem great!

Nice system for under $700 prebuilt:

ATX MEDIUM TOWER CASE 350 WATT (BEIGE)
(800Mhz FSB) Intel® Pentium® 4 CPU @ 2.8GHz 512K w/ Hyper Threading
*(DDR400-800MHz FSB)MSI 848P NEO-V, Intel® i848 Mainboard PRESCOTT SUPPORT w/ LAN & 5.1 SOUND W/SATA
512 MB PC3200 400MHz DDR MEMORY (Major_Brand)
80GB 7200 RPM ATA 100 HARD DRIVE
NONE - Hard Drive
nVidia GeForce FX 5700 256MB 8x AGP w/ TVO, & DVI
NU DDW081 DVDRW/CDRW DRIVE (BEIGE)
3D WAVE ON-BOARD 5.1 SOUND CARD

[IJ Reilly]

In order to simplify things for you I think I will narrow down your choices to two motherboards.

ASUS (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=13-131-478&DEPA=0)

Gigabyte (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=13-128-199&DEPA=0)

I'd looked at the ASUS already -- the user comments seem to be a love-hate thing. I also looked at the Gigabyte GA-7N400L, which presumably is similar to the one you reference, but without the gigabit ethernet (and probably something else I didn't notice).

BTW, do I need a floppy drive?

[3-22]

BTW, do I need a floppy drive?

Floppies, we don't need no stink'n floppies.... :)

www.directron.com is pretty good too! Great prices...

I've liked the ...

Shuttle SB61G2 XPC Spacewalker ALL-Aluminum P4 Barebone System, Intel i865G Chipset, 800FSB, Dual DDR400, LAN, AGP8X, Video & Audio w/SPDIF.

I just wonder how quiet it is, it looks like it wouldn't be a hurricane....

[Elbeano]

I'd looked at the ASUS already -- the user comments seem to be a love-hate thing. I also looked at the Gigabyte GA-7N400L, which presumably is similar to the one you reference, but without the gigabit ethernet (and probably something else I didn't notice).

BTW, do I need a floppy drive?

The love hate thing is standard with any decent motherboard. They get good reviews from anyone who has success with them, and anyone that either doesn't know what they're doing, or gets a lemon is going to complain about it. That's the same way I felt before I bought my mac after reading all of the horror stories on here about dead pixels, kernal panics, and latch woes. And I've had my own go with apple over my own latch so I'm still a little annoyed with them even though I love everything about my PB. I'd be one of those 4 out of 5 star people on newegg about this thing.

As far as the gigabit ethernet, when are you ever going to use that anyway? Unless you're transferring files from one system with 10,000 rpm sata or scsi hard drives in some sort of raid, to another system like that all the time, it's not going to matter.

And as far as the floppy drive is concerned I'm suprised a mac user even remembers them. Even in the PC world the only time you ever absolutely have to use one is for installing raid drivers during an XP install. Other than that I view them as a waste of space on the front, and more wires inside. If worse comes to worse I'd say pick up a USB one for like 20 bucks, because that's not a whole lot more than you're going to pay for an interal one with a nice rounded cable for it anyway. However, I don't miss one. In fact, I get pretty cross with the people at work when they have problems with them.

I only have 3 pieces of standing advice for other PC users whom sometimes I can't believe actually know how to set their alarm clock.

1. Don't double click everything. It annoys me to no end when I see co-workers double clicking their way through link after link, and wondering why they printed their report two times in word.

2. Crap happens (or something else more bumper sticker friendly). No matter how PC savvy you ever become, nothing will help you more than when you finally realize there are things that happen that there is no logical reason for. They think there is an answer for everything, and can't seem to accept that someone might have just screwed something up, and unless you can debug windows there is nothing you're going to do about it.

3. Don't use floppies. Ever. I don't know how many times the same people keep coming to me to recover something that they saved on a floppy on one machine, and can't get to it on another. I don't know how the floppy standard caught on, or at least how it wasn't replaced before cdr's.

Ummm... sorry if I ranted a little there. Good luck and junk.

[Mav451]

Well after building a hellauva lot of PC's this is currently my favorite mobo to work with. My PC (gaming) rig is what I pretty much posted. Those motherboards go for around 80 bucks now. I have built systems for people and built myself some systems that have gigabyte and asus mobos in them and when i used the NF7-S and the Athlon 2500 XP it runs very stable like it was a 3200 XP. you can check out amdmb.com for reviews on different motherboards, or if you have some specific questions, pm me and i will be glad to answer them.

good luck!

I will second the vote for the NF7-S. Having had over 11months of experience on the nForce2 platform, forum experience, and of course personal hardware tinkering...the Abit (not my A7N8X) will overclock better.

Please, do not be horrified when I say overclock. The reason anyone and everyone who knows nForce2 recommends the NF7-S is b/c:
1) One of the least expensive, maturest mobo out in the market
2) Superior overclocking abilities for the dollar

Do not, if you buy an Athlon XP (Barton or Thoroughbred), waste your money on any model above 2500+. That is the BEAUTY of going AMD. You get superior computing power PER THE DOLLAR, while also gaining the ability of both MULTIPLIER and FSB overclocking.

Of course, most bartons are locked now, EXCEPT this chip:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-401&depa=0

This chip (which with the NF7-S will probably make very, VERY jealous) should hit 2.4Ghz or 2.5Ghz pretty easily (get a SLK800 or Swifty to cool it). This equivalent to a 3.2-3.5ghz P4 easily when you get to these clock speeds. And before someone comments on Intel, YES, you can overclock those to, but the problem is, I have no experience with Intel.

*some mentioned the XP Pro/Home and the differences between services. My personal recommendation is go to Black Viper's site:

http://www.blackviper.com/WinXP/registry.htm

and learn about this yourself (yes, it is gonna be a slight pain, but knowledge is power, no? :) )

If you want a simple fix, you can either use the "Gaming Configuration" on his site as I think this is one of the cleanest ones, or ask me, and I can send you mine. If you do use Gamer's Tweak, remember to turn on Cryptographic Service when you use Windows Update (otherwise XP can't update).

[IJ Reilly]

Do not, if you buy an Athlon XP (Barton or Thoroughbred), waste your money on any model above 2500+. That is the BEAUTY of going AMD. You get superior computing power PER THE DOLLAR, while also gaining the ability of both MULTIPLIER and FSB overclocking.

The price difference between the 2500+ and the 2800+ is only $41.00. This is not money well-spent?

I'm not interested in over-clocking, at least not yet. For now I just want to get the thing to work, which is going to be challenging enough.

[IJ Reilly]

As far as the gigabit ethernet, when are you ever going to use that anyway? Unless you're transferring files from one system with 10,000 rpm sata or scsi hard drives in some sort of raid, to another system like that all the time, it's not going to matter.

And as far as the floppy drive is concerned I'm suprised a mac user even remembers them. Even in the PC world the only time you ever absolutely have to use one is for installing raid drivers during an XP install. Other than that I view them as a waste of space on the front, and more wires inside. If worse comes to worse I'd say pick up a USB one for like 20 bucks, because that's not a whole lot more than you're going to pay for an interal one with a nice rounded cable for it anyway. However, I don't miss one. In fact, I get pretty cross with the people at work when they have problems with them.

I wasn't going to do either gigabit ethernet or a floppy drive, but I thought the latter might still be required for non-hard drive boots. Last I checked it was, but I suppose Windows may have finally caught up with the Mac in that department. I haven't picked up a floppy disc in years, unless somebody gave it to me (which still happens sometimes). I've got an external superdisk drive for those eventualities -- which might even work with the PC, if the drivers can be found.

[Elbeano]

You don't need a boot disc for installing windows or anything like that any more. When you want to do the installation just go into the bios and change the boot order to boot from the cd drive. Put the installation disc in the cd drive, and reboot. Then you're good to go.

[IJ Reilly]

You don't need a boot disc for installing windows or anything like that any more. When you want to do the installation just go into the bios and change the boot order to boot from the cd drive. Put the installation disc in the cd drive, and reboot. Then you're good to go.

No holding down the "c" key like on the Mac, I guess. Maybe Windows hasn't caught up!

Don't know how to edit the BIOS, but I suppose those instructions will come with the motherboard.

[Mav451]

The price difference between the 2500+ and the 2800+ is only $41.00. This is not money well-spent?

I'm not interested in over-clocking, at least not yet. For now I just want to get the thing to work, which is going to be challenging enough.

Well, if you are building "Per the Dollar", then I would disagree. Another reason I bring up the multiplier issue is b/c it is as easy as flipping a switch--it can be a 2500+ one second, a 3200+ with a single change in the BIOS. A single change in BIOS, that is all.

But, if you are willing to pass that up, then that's fine with me as well. I recommend the 2500+ mobile b/c it gives a user a wide range of options.

[Mav451]

No holding down the "c" key like on the Mac, I guess. Maybe Windows hasn't caught up!

Don't know how to edit the BIOS, but I suppose those instructions will come with the motherboard.

Haha, well the reason is usually, unless you are booting a RAM test utility or video card flasher, there's almost no reason to boot off the CD-ROM. Hence, the reason, by default, that the Primary hard drive is set as the first bootup device.

This procedure is very simple, so there's no need to worry about it.

[IJ Reilly]

Well, if you are building "Per the Dollar", then I would disagree. Another reason I bring up the multiplier issue is b/c it is as easy as flipping a switch--it can be a 2500+ one second, a 3200+ with a single change in the BIOS. A single change in BIOS, that is all.

But, if you are willing to pass that up, then that's fine with me as well. I recommend the 2500+ mobile b/c it gives a user a wide range of options.

Actually, I'm building more "per the spec" than "per the dollar." I started this exercise looking at a P4 2.8, so the AMD should be in that same performance category if I want to hit the same target. I understood that AMD rates their processors in "effective" clock cycles vs. the Intel chips. Or is that wrong?

Do I need to decide about overclocking now? If not, I'd rather set that to one side and deal with one issue at a time.

What are the advantages of the 2500+ mobile?

[Elbeano]

For PC's to get into the bios you generally have to press either delete, or F12 somewhere in the first screen while it's doing the memory test. It will say. The only problem is some of the PC's I've made are so fast that the option is displayed for less than a second before it goes on with other booting processes. Combine that with the fact that the monitor isn't usually warmed up enough to see the option and I've had to restart upwards of 5 times just to get in to the bios before. You do have to be careful making the adjustment from the 2500+ to the 3200+. My friend and I tried that on one of his machines, and it woudln't even boot after that. We had to remove the battery from the motherboard and let the bios reset. What a fun day that was.

[IJ Reilly]

Haha, well the reason is usually, unless you are booting a RAM test utility or video card flasher, there's almost no reason to boot off the CD-ROM. Hence, the reason, by default, that the Primary hard drive is set as the first bootup device.

This procedure is very simple, so there's no need to worry about it.

...or installing the OS. :)

This will all be documented in the motherboard instructions, yes?

[egor]

I don't know quite why anyone is persuading you against a floppy, where I come from (britain) you can get one for a fiver.

It has more uses than you'd think. Particularly usefull if at somepoint you want to install a unix operating system (for example, FreeBSD and many others require you to boot from floppy), also, its the little things that people haven't mentioned, I believe partition magic lets you create repair disks if it all goes balls up. Its five quid, and the wires are insignificant.

As for motherboard. I'd concur with the 9600XT, HOWEVER, whatever you do, DO NOT, get a motherboard with a via chipset to go with that, its perculiar, but, via + 9600xt = CTDs, its a known problem. Also, have a look at soltek's motherboards, they come in nice colours, and I've found them to be more reliable than asus'. I'd go with a motherboard with the nForce2 chipset myself, btw.

With regards to someone saying something about the 9800se having something to do with the 9600s, thats not really all that close to the truth, the 9800se is a 9800 with four of the pipelines DISABLED, what does that mean in real terms? It means you might be able to strike lucky and flash it to a regular 9800, do a search to find out more.

[IJ Reilly]

For PC's to get into the bios you generally have to press either delete, or F12 somewhere in the first screen while it's doing the memory test. It will say. The only problem is some of the PC's I've made are so fast that the option is displayed for less than a second before it goes on with other booting processes. Combine that with the fact that the monitor isn't usually warmed up enough to see the option and I've had to restart upwards of 5 times just to get in to the bios before. You do have to be careful making the adjustment from the 2500+ to the 3200+. My friend and I tried that on one of his machines, and it woudln't even boot after that. We had to remove the battery from the motherboard and let the bios reset. What a fun day that was.

Overclocking sounds like advanced voodoo to me.

Still trying to decide which processor to use.

Thanks for all the great advice and guidance, btw. It's very cool of everybody to be so patient with a homebrew noob. :o

[Elbeano]

Overclocking sounds like advanced voodoo to me.

Still trying to decide which processor to use.

Thanks for all the great advice and guidance, btw. It's very cool of everybody to be so patient with a homebrew noob. :o

Well, before macforums I didn't know a whole lot about macs. I'm just returning the favor. Some of my old haunts were overclocking and modding sites, so I jumped all over this thread. Feels like a little bit of home, even if I am more thrilled about my powerbook than any PC I ever got. I think that has more to do with the fact that I have built just about every one I owned except for one HP with windows ME on it. Dear Lord what a mess that system was. That was back when it was over a grand for a 1ghz PC, 256 meg of ram, onboard video, and a 17 inch monitor. Actually, that wasn't too long ago....

In any case, just wait until you actually start putting this mother together. I get the feeling this thread is going to get so big they'll have to add a PC forum for macrumors, heh heh heh heh.

[IJ Reilly]

I don't know quite why anyone is persuading you against a floppy, where I come from (britain) you can get one for a fiver.

It has more uses than you'd think. Particularly usefull if at somepoint you want to install a unix operating system (for example, FreeBSD and many others require you to boot from floppy), also, its the little things that people haven't mentioned, I believe partition magic lets you create repair disks if it all goes balls up. Its five quid, and the wires are insignificant.

As for motherboard. I'd concur with the 9600XT, HOWEVER, whatever you do, DO NOT, get a motherboard with a via chipset to go with that, its perculiar, but, via + 9600xt = CTDs, its a known problem. Also, have a look at soltek's motherboards, they come in nice colours, and I've found them to be more reliable than asus'. I'd go with a motherboard with the nForce2 chipset myself, btw.

With regards to someone saying something about the 9800se having something to do with the 9600s, thats not really all that close to the truth, the 9800se is a 9800 with four of the pipelines DISABLED, what does that mean in real terms? It means you might be able to strike lucky and flash it to a regular 9800, do a search to find out more.

Indeed, they are cheap -- less than $20.00 based on a cursory investigation. Easily added later, I presume. The ABIT NF7-S, which seems to be the most frequently recommended, has an nForce 2 chipset.

[Elbeano]

I wasn't trying to completely dissuade you from getting a floppy though, just saying you don't really need one, and I like a very clean case. The more you put in it, the more it looks like a rat's nest. Once you do get all of the parts though I shall have to instruct you in the ways of cable fu, the art of hiding your wires.

[IJ Reilly]

Well, before macforums I didn't know a whole lot about macs. I'm just returning the favor. Some of my old haunts were overclocking and modding sites, so I jumped all over this thread. Feels like a little bit of home, even if I am more thrilled about my powerbook than any PC I ever got. I think that has more to do with the fact that I have built just about every one I owned except for one HP with windows ME on it. Dear Lord what a mess that system was. That was back when it was over a grand for a 1ghz PC, 256 meg of ram, onboard video, and a 17 inch monitor. Actually, that wasn't too long ago....

In any case, just wait until you actually start putting this mother together. I get the feeling this thread is going to get so big they'll have to add a PC forum for macrumors, heh heh heh heh.

If I close my eyes, I can see you rubbing your hands together.

Really, am I in for it? Is this going to be a weekend in hell?

[Elbeano]

If I close my eyes, I can see you rubbing your hands together.

Really, am I in for it? Is this going to be a weekend in hell?

Ha hahahah, well I can't say I haven't had a few of those when it came time to put some machines together. My garage is like a museum to those weekends. However, since my powerbook has spent about 20% of it's life with apple care and I've only had it since the newest revision, I can't say I haven't had some similar moments with Macs. I will say be prepared to invest some time. The wiring on my PC that is in the picture back on the first page of this post took me probably close to 6 hours alone. Now I took apart the power supply and cut off every wire I didn't need, taped them off individually, tucked them back in the power supply, sleeved everything with that blue stuff, put all of the molex connectors back on (I had to take them off with some thingy I got at radio shack), and put everything back together. Most people just let it dangle.

[IJ Reilly]

Well it is very nice -- it looks like a medical instrument. It's worth being so picky if your work is going to be on display like that.

I'm just afraid I'll plug everything together and no go, without any clue as to what's wrong.

[Elbeano]

Oh yeah, there is nothing like that feeling that you get when you put together your first computer. You put it all together, plug it all in, monitor, keyboard, mouse, everything. You go for that power button and......nothing. I'm not trying to scare you of course, but it will happen. Common reasons:
Front panel stuff not plugged in properly
The little on/off switch in the O position on the power supply
Processor is on fire

[IJ Reilly]

Cosmic rays, bad karma....

[ToddW]

Indeed, they are cheap -- less than $20.00 based on a cursory investigation. Easily added later, I presume. The ABIT NF7-S, which seems to be the most frequently recommended, has an nForce 2 chipset.

if you decide to go to with the NF7-S and decide to use a SATA harddrive you will need a floppy to load the drivers for the SATA controller that is onboard the mobo. Windows will need those drivers to install.

[snooziums]

Allright, I'm going to see if I can post the picture of my PC baby.

How about a clear-case Macintosh? Here is a picture of mine.

[crowdaddy]

how do you build a mac??

[dopefiend]

how do you build a mac??

You don't.

[snooziums]

how do you build a mac??

It is possible, although very hard. Basically, it involves finding a fully functional older mac, or fixing one up until it is fully functional. Then the fun part comes in....

Macs, despite their wonderfulness, are not very expandable. So the major part is installing the parts of the functional mac into a new case. This is challenging, as the mainboard screws will not line up. So what you have to do is make, out of cardboard or a thin piece of wood, a spacer that the mainboard will mount into and then mount into the case. This can be done out of metal as well, although much harder. The spacer should be the same side as the mainboard, and holes will be drilled or punched into it that will line up with the mainboard and with the case, so basically it is an adaptor.

Once the mainboard spacer/mounter is created and the mainboard is fasten into the case, the rest is just a manner of moving the drives and power supply over. The use of drive and power cable extenders might me needed.

The advantage of all this, much more expandability! Where as your old Apple case only had two drive bays and two-to-four internal harddrive spaces, the new case will have up to six drive bays and lots of places to install harddrives.

Plus, you can use really cool cases, like the clear case that is sown below. In that clear case I have: Power Computing Mac clone mainboard, 300 watt power supply, DVD 8x +/- RW burner, internal zip drive, internal jaz drive, pcmcia and camera card reader, and four front usb ports, as well as three internal hard drives. Best computer ever!

[IJ Reilly]

You don't.

I built my second Mac (or was it my third?), a IIx, in 1989 I think it was.

In those days, you could buy stock parts from Pre-Owned Computers. I think they got them from out of business Apple dealers. I bought the case, motherboard, RAM, drives -- all as parts, and put the thing together myself. Saved a couple of hundred bucks. All the parts are out there, you just need to find somebody who'll sell them.

[IJ Reilly]

if you decide to go to with the NF7-S and decide to use a SATA harddrive you will need a floppy to load the drivers for the SATA controller that is onboard the mobo. Windows will need those drivers to install.

Wait, I thought this mobo only supported ATA/133. What'd I miss? Or is SATA the same as ATA/133?

[dopefiend]

I built my second Mac (or was it my third?), a IIx, in 1989 I think it was.

Pretty cool, hehe, I was about 4 at that time :D

[Mav451]

For PC's to get into the bios you generally have to press either delete, or F12 somewhere in the first screen while it's doing the memory test. It will say. The only problem is some of the PC's I've made are so fast that the option is displayed for less than a second before it goes on with other booting processes. Combine that with the fact that the monitor isn't usually warmed up enough to see the option and I've had to restart upwards of 5 times just to get in to the bios before. You do have to be careful making the adjustment from the 2500+ to the 3200+. My friend and I tried that on one of his machines, and it woudln't even boot after that. We had to remove the battery from the motherboard and let the bios reset. What a fun day that was.

This is what I call NOT reading the FAQ on nforcershq.com

You either have a mobo that CAN do it, or not.

I'm presuming he didn't have an Abit NF7-S, heck he might even have my motherboard. This adjustment is easy if you have a 2500+, the RIGHT memory (corsair pc3200 or better) and a proper mobo for it. Obviously, if you have inferior parts, don't expect the overclock to work! Why do you think I am stressing to get an Abit NF7-S? Because it has been PROVEN, over and over again, to be the best overclocking mobo in the market. And its mature (v1.2 has been out since Late 2002, and v2.0 since Feb/March of 2003).

Yes, what I say might be cookie cutter, but it certainly cuts out problems/anomalies that can arise if you DON'T follow a "tried-and-true" proven model. This is where customization/discrepancies of the PC market tend to work AGAINST the novices (if you don't know the "best" brand, than you are bit lost). This is WHY I stress to follow cookie cutter builds. This way, at least, you know that it has worked. Hell, I even followed a cookie cutter build for my A7N8X (copied Vcore, Vdimm, and memory timings, and adjusted them accordingly).

[IJ Reilly]

Pretty cool, hehe, I was about 4 at that time :D

Go ahead, make me feel old. And here I am, still a Windows virgin.

[dubbz]

Wait, I thought this mobo only supported ATA/133. What'd I miss? Or is SATA the same as ATA/133?

NF7-S supports SATA. I have 2 SATA disks in my NF7-S system :)

If you get the NF7-S you also don't really have to worry about getting an extra soundcard. The built-in nForce2 sound is good enough for most uses, far better than than most other built-in sound solutions, although a newer Audigy might be nice if you're a heavy gamer.

And, like mentioned, you'll need a floppy drive if you buy only SATA-drives. Standard Windows XP need additional drivers to boot from and install to a SATA-drive. That is, unless you have a friend who can make a slightly modified Windows XP CD for you, adding SATA drivers (similiar to how you can make Windows XP CD's with SP1 already installed), removing the need for a floppy drive.

Oh, and I whould also recommend the NF7-S. It has not disappointed me yet. (And it's the first revision too). :)

[IJ Reilly]

Thanks, I had the mobo specs right here and just misread them. I've looked at so many things over the past few days, I'm getting confused (that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!).

A few decisions I'm still trying to make:

2500+ or 2800+
DDR333 or DDR400
ATA or SATA

If you had to pick just one upgrade, which would you choose?

[Mav451]

Thanks, I had the mobo specs right here and just misread them. I've looked at so many things over the past few days, I'm getting confused (that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!).

A few decisions I'm still trying to make:

2500+ or 2800+
DDR333 or DDR400
ATA or SATA

If you had to pick just one upgrade, which would you choose?

If you are absolutely, ABSOLUTELY sure you do not want to even attempt overclocking, then, yes, you can go with DDR333. Otherwise, I see no reason NOT to go with DDR400, otherwise. The ATA vs. SATA issue, I think, is a cost issue. If you want the most value, ATA will still give it to you (200Gig's go for $130, so if you get 2, that's 400gigs for $260...not bad).

*edit*
Ooops, apparently WD ALSO has a SATA 200gig for $10 more...$136 for a 200Gig SATA drive. Up to you, i guess.

[Elbeano]

You know, I think far too much thought and effort is going in to this. Why don't you just go buy a Dell and get it over with?

[IJ Reilly]

You know, I think far too much thought and effort is going in to this. Why don't you just go buy a Dell and get it over with?

Because, among other things, I want to learn how to do this. Isn't that a good enough reason all by itself?

Based on all the comments and suggestions I've read here and elsewhere, I get the impression that homebuilding is quite a minefield -- which only raises the question why all homebuilders don't just buy a Dell and get it over with.

So, whatever their (and your) motivations and rationales for homebuilding might be, mine are probably just about the same. The only difference is, I don't much about this -- yet.

(And honestly, I'm surprised to see you take that tack, seeing as you've been so helpful and instructive. I hope you're not regretting it!)

[Elbeano]

'Twas only a little sarcasm. It's all the thought and annoyance that makes it fun. PC's are funny like that. I PC users are a little masochistic, or however you spell that.

[IJ Reilly]

'Twas only a little sarcasm. It's all the thought and annoyance that makes it fun. PC's are funny like that. I PC users are a little masochistic, or however you spell that.

So why do you do it? Because it feels so good when I stop!