Taking aim at fear with a .22-caliber

[Frohickey]

Taking aim at fear with a .22-caliber (http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-etcolumn3826615jun02,0,2742345.column?coll=ny-news-columnists)

The afternoon of the day I was attacked, I drove into the nearest town and bought a gun. In the report I had already filed with the police, I described the stranger who broke into the house while I was taking a shower. "Go away," I screamed. He told me to shut up.

After a kicking, howling struggle, which took us from the bedroom to the living room, he ran off. He was gone, but I felt panicky and powerless. I had seen into the heart of reality and been permanently changed. What kind of fool would be nonviolent in a violent world? I laughed at my old liberalism, my empty prating about the evils of violence and the value of human life. The man who attacked me didn't have those scruples, and I had lost mine in a heartbeat. If I hadn't fought back violently, I believe I would have been raped, and I might have been killed.

I picked out a heavy target pistol, a single-action West German .22-caliber with a long barrel and a wooden handle; the moment I held it, I started to feel better. I showed my driver's license, signed my name and began to have what would be months of fantasies about what I would do to the stranger if he returned. I would blow his head off. He would plead with me - as I had pleaded - and I would wipe out his pleas with a .22 long. I understood the healing power of revenge.

Before the attack, I thought it couldn't happen to me. Afterward, I lived in fear, suspecting all strangers, double-checking the locks and refusing to go out after dark.

Every afternoon, I walked down to the local dump and set up cans for target practice. At first my marksmanship was as crazy as I felt, but I slowly found the shooting position - a Kojak-style two-handed grip - that worked best. I began to hit the mark. I conjured up the image of my attacker. Then I blew him away. For a moment, I felt safe and powerful, but by the time I cleaned the gun an hour later, the fear came flooding back. I moved from the house where it had happened. I moved again. When I told friends about the gun, some argued. I lost some friends. I kept the gun.

An estimated 17 million women in the United States own guns, according to Caitlin Kelly's new book, "Blown Away: American Women and Guns" (Pocket Books). Women are the fastest growing group of sport hunters; teenage trap shooting has quadrupled nationwide since 2001, and 4-H clubs have added shooting to knot-tying and animal husbandry.

But a study in the magazine Women & Guns shows that more than 80 percent of women who own handguns keep them out of a concern for personal safety. Statistics show a dramatic drop in crime almost everywhere, but women are still at an unacceptable risk. More than a third of women in this country will be violently assaulted, raped or robbed. Three women are killed every day, 90 percent of them by their male partners.

"Guns kill, but guns protect," says one gun owner in Kelly's fascinating, balanced book, whose interviewees range from preppy students to seasoned police officers. "They're an enormous equalizer between the weak and the vicious."

Guns have an ugly, tragic side. In the wrong hands, they have caused countless unnecessary deaths, and they have shattered families and communities. The massacre at Columbine could not have happened without guns. Fifty percent of gun deaths are suicides. In the absence of guns, people don't get shot. It's as simple as that. The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution guarantees us the right to bear arms, but these arms have become objects of intense political contention between those who favor stricter gun controls and those who favor more personal freedom.

After I got married again and had children, I got rid of my bullets and gave away the gun. Although I would kill to protect my kids, it felt dangerous to have a gun in the same house with them. They were so precious; it was so deadly. By that time, I had also moved to Manhattan, where most apartments are protected by deadbolts and chains.

I read wheelchair-user and former Marine Andre Dubus' electrifying essay in "Meditations From a Movable Chair" (Vintage, 1999) about why he had given up his gun. "I gave up answers that are made of steel that fire lead," he wrote, "and I decided to sit in a wheelchair on the frighteningly invisible palm of God." On good days, I understand that. On bad days, when I am alone in the country or when my doorbell rings late at night, I wish I had a gun again.

=====

Wow. A major media columnist that had an epiphany :eek:
I wonder how long before she will be fired from her job by her boss.

[Desertrat]

While I disagree with her conclusions, I see no reason that she should lose her job. That would be grossly unfair.

The issue of her having a handgun in Manhattan is moot, anyway. You're not going to be allowed to have one, unless you're a political bigshot or you're quite rich and buddies with the politicos. IOW, it wasn't her decision to get rid of the handgun. The Sullivan law and the New York system took care of that.

Regardless, she had logical reasons, and that's all that matters.

'Rat

[kuyu]

Three years ago, my uncle was at our family farm, alone, shooting his guns. He taught me how to shoot. When he didn't come home on time his mother, and two sisters (one was my mom) went to the farm to get him.

They found him dead, shot in the chest at point blank with a 44 mag. the police and coroner (family friend) ruled out suicide, but we never suspected that anyway. I have always assumed that foulplay was involved. The "official' story is that he was trying to play hotshot, and the gun went off. I never bought it, he seemed to smart for that.

Anyway, my mom, aunt, and grandmother found their little brother and son in laying in the truck bed, feet dangling, with a pool of blood surrounding him. Of course, I had to sell all of my guns. I had two 38's, a 9, a 30.06, a 22 rifle, and a 22 pistol.

My mom doesn't know it, but I kept the 22 rifle. I took the money and put it into a roth IRA, and it just sits there much like the guns did. I rarely shot, and I haven't fired a gun since that day.

BUT, I think guns are important. The 2nd amendment gives us the right not just to bear arms, but to KEEP them. To bear is to hold, to keep is to own. So while some people talk about the violence from guns, think about this. If guns were outlawed I'd still have my uncle, but it would only be a matter of time before something far worse happened to all of us. Every nation that takes guns away from the citizens soon begins genocide.

How many uncles, mothers, fathers, brothers, daughters, and cousins have to die before I think we should outlaw guns? As many as it takes to keep our government from owning all of them. There are more firearms in private ownership in America than are owned by the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force combined. Let's keep it that way.

[mactastic]

Every nation that takes guns away from the citizens soon begins genocide.


Great Britain has begun genocide???? I hadn't hear that before just now. :eek:

[bella]

We have this rediculous "gun registry" our gov't has tried to implement - they have spent about 2 billion and its still not fully implace or enforced. It's a rediculous scandle.

Just because a person registers their guns doesn't mean that that particular gun will never be stolen and used for crime. In fact a list of all guns people have registered, and owners adresses are available to the public. Whats keeping a criminal from breaking into a home and stealing these guns to commit a crime? That piece of paper isn't going to stop a crime from happening. You won't find street gangs who are buying them outta the trunks of cars registering their guns. Why should people who are responsible and have had them for generations, used them for hunting, have to register or not be allowed to own them eventually.

I'll never give mine up.

[kuyu]

Great Britain has begun genocide???? I hadn't hear that before just now. :eek:

Sorry, I'm generalizing again. How's this. Many nations follow anti-gun policy with genocide.

Ottoman Tukey (1915-1917) 1 million dead
Soviet Union (1929-1945) 20 million dead
Nazi Germany/Europe (1933-1945) 20 million dead
China [nationalist] (1927-1949) 10 million dead
China [red] (1949-1976) 20-35 million dead
Guatemala (1960-1981) 150,000 dead
Uganda (1971-1979) 300,000 dead
Cambodia (1975-1979) 2 million dead
Rwanda (1994) 800,000 dead

GRAND TOTAL: In 90 years, a stadium shy of 85,000,000 million people killed in genocide just after "gun control laws" were passed in their countries. That's about 9 million a year average (with an obvious concentration in the 30's and 40's).
Most of these were so called "political enemies".

USA (1960-present) 1 million dead in violent acts and accidents
GRAND TOTAL: in ~45 years that's about 25,000 year.

So, it's obviously not a perfect correlation, but I bet in a statistical study the R-square would be above .5, and probably closer to .75. Britain is an exception, not the rule.

[mactastic]

Sorry, I'm generalizing again. How's this. Many nations follow anti-gun policy with genocide.
.

Much better... A professor of mine once told me not to make absolute statements (unless it is unquestionable) because it makes people spend time looking for the exceptions to your point rather than listening to it. ;)

[zimv20]

Much better... A professor of mine once told me not to make absolute statements (unless it is unquestionable) because it makes people spend time looking for the exceptions to your point rather than listening to it. ;)
"once" told you? how can you be sure it was only once? maybe the professor mentioned it twice.

[carbonmotion]

I think the right to bear arms stops when you step in to public domain... you can keep as many guns in your house as you want for sports or self-defense but don't take any time to restaurnts, movie theatres... etc. Also, americas who say they need a automatic rifle or SMG "self-defense" is deluded. Also, gun locks and child-safe gun control devices should be mandatory on all guns and not optional. best compromise i can think off to appease the gun lovers and te gun-haters.

[mactastic]

"once" told you? how can you be sure it was only once? maybe the professor mentioned it twice.

Nope, he absolutely positively 100% mentioned it once and only once. I think. :D

[skunk]

Sorry, I'm generalizing again. How's this. Many nations follow anti-gun policy with genocide.
All dogs are four-legged creatures, but not all four-legged creatures are dogs.

[Desertrat]

carbonmotion, that sounds nice, but you're gonna have to guarantee me that I'll never, ever, ever meet with two or three very-hostile young and healthy hoodlums who not only would take my money, but do grievous bodily harm to my precious-to-me body.

Can you offer that guarantee as 100%? You know you cannot, and your idea is facile but thoughtless...

Note that I as a holder of a Concealed Handgun License have proven that I have as clean a track record in life as your local policeman or even his chief. Can your local politicians--who write gun laws--meet that standard? :D I have been tested as to knowledge of the law concerning the use of deadly force in self defense. I have been tested as to my competency with a handgun. So, what's your problem?

All my firearms not ready to hand are kept in my gunsafe. It weighs 800 pounds, empty, and has extremely secure locks.

The concept of gunlocks for child safety is all well and good until the child reaches the age of hacksaw and/or screwdriver. Better to gunproof the kid; you absolutely cannot kidproof a gun. It's easy to gunproof a kid. You just take the romance and thrill out of the issue by pointing out it's not a toy, and when he's physically large enough you'll take him out so he can shoot it. Since a 1911 is too large and too heavy for a four-year-old, he readily loses interest. (Stay away from mouseguns like the North American Arms mini-revolvers, of course. :D) Once a gun is of no interest, there's no problem. Common sense says it doesn't end with just one lesson, and one ALWAYS does pay attention to security.

I have no objections whatsoever to serious penalties for parental negligence.

'Rat

[zimv20]

Nope, he absolutely positively 100% mentioned it once and only once. I think. :D
well, *I* thought it was funny

[wwworry]

not only that, gun control has led to the atomic bomb, aids, and killer bees!
Australia has pretty strict laws AND they have those giant frogs!
England has the laws which led to their lousy food.

nor, I guess, does the 95% of Native Americans who lost their lives count in our great westward expansion. Strangely enough, the native Americans had guns. So it was not a genocide!

(learn more please)
http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/native-americans.html


Sorry, I'm generalizing again. How's this. Many nations follow anti-gun policy with genocide.

Ottoman Tukey (1915-1917) 1 million dead
Soviet Union (1929-1945) 20 million dead
Nazi Germany/Europe (1933-1945) 20 million dead
China [nationalist] (1927-1949) 10 million dead
China [red] (1949-1976) 20-35 million dead
Guatemala (1960-1981) 150,000 dead
Uganda (1971-1979) 300,000 dead
Cambodia (1975-1979) 2 million dead
Rwanda (1994) 800,000 dead

GRAND TOTAL: In 90 years, a stadium shy of 85,000,000 million people killed in genocide just after "gun control laws" were passed in their countries. That's about 9 million a year average (with an obvious concentration in the 30's and 40's).
Most of these were so called "political enemies".

USA (1960-present) 1 million dead in violent acts and accidents
GRAND TOTAL: in ~45 years that's about 25,000 year.

So, it's obviously not a perfect correlation, but I bet in a statistical study the R-square would be above .5, and probably closer to .75. Britain is an exception, not the rule.

[wwworry]

Why do we not count our genocide of Native Americans?

[Neserk]

Why do we not count our genocide of Native Americans?

Because, ummm, well, aaaaa, emmm, errrr...

[kuyu]

Rat, I totally agree with you about gunproofing a kid. When I was a kid, my dad and uncles taught me how to A) respect a weapon B) treat a weapon and C)how to handle a weapon properly.

It was sooooo beneficial. My dad has about 30 guns in his house and cars (all concealed, of course), and I was never once tempted to "show off" or seem cool in front of the other kids by playing with them. My dad bought a bunch of spoiled turkeys and let me shoot them with pistols, shotguns, and rifles. I saw what a gun will do to flesh (it ain't pretty). I understood that they really can hurt people.

Also, I had to take a class in town, and took another at conservation camp. However, most kids don't have the benefit of such parenting. I know the neighbor kids didn't. They all thought guns were "awesome". Education, experience, and most of all, awareness are all that can make guns safer.... but accidents will happen, and most likely in the hands of uneducated, inexperienced, unaware idiots.

[carbonmotion]

carbonmotion, that sounds nice, but you're gonna have to guarantee me that I'll never, ever, ever meet with two or three very-hostile young and healthy hoodlums who not only would take my money, but do grievous bodily harm to my precious-to-me body.

Can you offer that guarantee as 100%? You know you cannot, and your idea is facile but thoughtless...

Note that I as a holder of a Concealed Handgun License have proven that I have as clean a track record in life as your local policeman or even his chief. Can your local politicians--who write gun laws--meet that standard? :D I have been tested as to knowledge of the law concerning the use of deadly force in self defense. I have been tested as to my competency with a handgun. So, what's your problem?

All my firearms not ready to hand are kept in my gunsafe. It weighs 800 pounds, empty, and has extremely secure locks.

The concept of gunlocks for child safety is all well and good until the child reaches the age of hacksaw and/or screwdriver. Better to gunproof the kid; you absolutely cannot kidproof a gun. It's easy to gunproof a kid. You just take the romance and thrill out of the issue by pointing out it's not a toy, and when he's physically large enough you'll take him out so he can shoot it. Since a 1911 is too large and too heavy for a four-year-old, he readily loses interest. (Stay away from mouseguns like the North American Arms mini-revolvers, of course. :D) Once a gun is of no interest, there's no problem. Common sense says it doesn't end with just one lesson, and one ALWAYS does pay attention to security.

I have no objections whatsoever to serious penalties for parental negligence.

'Rat Ok... time for a real world of politics. You, be a die-hard pro-seconder will always see things the NRA way which you will believe with all you heart to be the absolute moral right. The anti-second amendment activists will see things their way as the absolute truth as well. Both side are deluded as on issues as these there are no absolute moral truths just various interprations of reality. So, to make both sides happy, you have to agree to settle somewhere in the middle. You get laws that give you some actions but also restricts others...

I agree with you that gun control may be the sole root of the problem of the high crime rates in america, however the public domain belongs to everyone not only to you or people who believe that same things as you do. Thus, you have to respect the wishes of other [fellow] citizens who don't feel comfortable allowing anyone with a clean record to carry a concealed weapon in public. While you may be as responsible as a police officer with your concealed handgun, you can not expect others (with a clean record) to have the same level or responsibility or emotional control. Someone can have a very abrahsive personality but still easily maintain a good civil record. For public defense you have the combined option of carrying the following, 1) carry a Taser 2) carry a cell phone with 911 on speed dial and 3) carry a mace can. There are many many more non-lethal takedown weapons available that can be used to defend oneself without endangering the lives of your fellow citizens. Also, if you think that I'm some liberal tree-hugger who's never held a gun, then you are only partially correct. I am moderate liberal, and I like to hug trees... however I own a bolt-action HOWA M1500 chambered for 270 win. that I take to the range to practice my sharpshooting (i don't hunt). When its in the car, it's always locked in my case and never loaded.

I personally would avoid killing people as much as possible even if they are the aggressors who break in to my house. Since we live in a civilized society not war-torn yugoslavia we shouldn't resort to the kill-on-sight tactics so engrained in the minds of those living under a hospice of extreme fear, uncertainty, and paranoia. Yes! I have the skill to grab my Glock 34 (9x19) and nail the ******* twice in the chest. However, doing so would circumvent the laws of this nation which should be respected; instead do the following 1) call the cops on speed dial or use your security system's panick button. 2) defend youself with a tazer, mace or tranq gun 3) lock yourself in a panic room or some such or run away... Let the cops and the criminal justice system run its course. Don't just devalue life to a point where you can just point, squeeze and kill someone (no matter what kind of social-economic background) without considering the value of their life.

[carbonmotion]

Sorry I'm going to contiune my rant here... I don't have a problem with people who uses certain guns for home defense or sports or recreation.

Yet, there are "willing and responsible" people out there who wants defend their homes with Ak47s, M16s, MP5s, M82 Barrets, or Black Arrow M93. From what? The Government?

[Desertrat]

"Thus, you have to respect the wishes of other [fellow] citizens who don't feel comfortable allowing anyone with a clean record to carry a concealed weapon in public."

No. There is no constitutional or legal right to feel comfortable. I have no onus upon me to worry about others' fears of what might happen.

If my weapon is concealed, how do you know if I'm "toting"? If you don't know, how would any licensing make any difference? Do gang-bangers apply for licenses? :)

Where does the Second Amendment refer to self-defense? Have you ever read the preamble to the Bill of Rights? If not, I suggest you do so. Any Constitutional protection of my right to self-defense derives from the 14th Amendment. Remember the FBI investigations and prosecutions shown in the movie "Mississippi Burning"? The reasons and authority? The courts have decided that I have a civil right to live. The courts have also held that the police have no obligation to actively protect that right--and in their absence, they cannot. Between court decisions and physical realities, who is responsible for my safety except me, myself and I?

"1) carry a Taser 2) carry a cell phone with 911 on speed dial and 3) carry a mace can."

Suggestions 1 and 3 require closer proximity than I care for. Tasers are not legal in many states. Mace sounds good, but don't bet your life on it; ask a cop. (Many who are high on a speed-type drug are unaffected by even a high-capsicum pepper spray.) At my wife's home, cell phones don't work because of distance from a tower. At our other home, the admitted SO response time is 20 to 30 minutes "if all the gates are open".

"Since we live in a civilized society not war-torn yugoslavia we shouldn't resort to the kill-on-sight tactics so engrained in the minds of those living under a hospice of extreme fear, uncertainty, and paranoia."

I certainly agree with the fundamental premise. So far, among my CHL friends or acquaintances, I've yet to see any evidence of fear or paranoia. Uncertainty? I know some preachers and politicians who have certainty. Few economists, however. :D

"Don't just devalue life to a point where you can...kill someone..without considering the value of their life."

One who would offer grievous bodily harm or death to me has devalued their own life, their own humanity. We're not talkin' a mutually agreed-upon schoolyard or bar fight here. Reaction, not initiating action, under the long-established "reasonable and prudent person" doctrine.

The .270 is a great cartridge. I used to load with the old-days surplus 4831, with the 130-grain bullet. Didn't even need powder scales. Fill the case, scrape across the case mouth, and seat the bullet. The compressed load gave some 100 ft/sec less than factory. I still have the dies, but no .270 at the moment...

:), 'Rat

[Neserk]

Sadly, carrying a gun or having one in your home is *NOT* the way to end the problem of violence in our society.

It is like all those commercials you see on TV and in the Newspaper for losing weight. People want quick solutions -- in the end they usually end up more unhealthy. Real solutions take time, energy, and money. This is true for both weight loss and violence.

[Desertrat]

"Real solutions take time, energy, and money."

Amen.

Does knowing that fire-proof houses are becoming available mean that you will drop your insurance before having one? Does knowing that an armistice is only a few weeks' worth of time and effort away mean you turn your back on the enemy?

I'm fully aware that many problems have only long-term solutions. A reduction in the size of the problem still means that some amount of problem exists. And we have no choice but to live in the present as it exists.

'Rat

[Neserk]

"Real solutions take time, energy, and money."

Amen.

Does knowing that fire-proof houses are becoming available mean that you will drop your insurance before having one? Does knowing that an armistice is only a few weeks' worth of time and effort away mean you turn your back on the enemy?

I'm fully aware that many problems have only long-term solutions. A reduction in the size of the problem still means that some amount of problem exists. And we have no choice but to live in the present as it exists.

'Rat

Except getting rid of many of the guns is *part* of the solution. And as my analogy goes, when you use the fad diet you end up more unhealthy; when you possess the gun you (or someone close to you) often ends up dead or severly injured.

[carbonmotion]

Rat, If someone is on speed or on crack, you won't be able to stop them at anyting less then close range with most guns short of .45s and .50s. Tazer works universally well among durged and non-druged people and tranq guns as well. I can sort of understand carry a gun if if you live out in the country but but in a city? You realize garentee you can account for the landing location of every bullet that you fire and so while I can be fairly certain that each bullet I fire will hit it's mark, I can not garentee that. One shot may go wild and produce a net resultent that I was not going for. Since cities have populations so closely clustered together, stray bullets can easily main. Now one or two people carrying a gun is no big deal, but a city full of people carrying guns? That would create some unfortunate incidents.

[skunk]

To "normal" people (i.e. us Europeans :rolleyes: ) these gun threads just seem to be insane. NOBODY here (except a few gangstas who seem to like shooting each other) carries, or wants to carry, a gun. The police are for the most part unarmed, and so are the criminals. As far as I can see, the likelihood of somebody getting shot is considerably lower if nobody has a gun. This revolutionary concept may come as a shock to some of you (YOU know who you are! :cool: ) but it does make sense. Kinda. Maybe you should try it. :rolleyes:

[Neserk]

To "normal" people (i.e. us Europeans :rolleyes: ) these gun threads just seem to be insane. NOBODY here (except a few gangstas who seem to like shooting each other) carries, or wants to carry, a gun. The police are for the most part unarmed, and so are the criminals. As far as I can see, the likelihood of somebody getting shot is considerably lower if nobody has a gun. This revolutionary concept may come as a shock to some of you (YOU know who you are! :cool: ) but it does make sense. Kinda. Maybe you should try it. :rolleyes:


Told ya so! Getting rid of the guns *is* part of the solution.

[skunk]

Told ya so! Getting rid of the guns *is* part of the solution.
10 out of 10, Teach! :D

[Neserk]

10 out of 10, Teach! :D


:D I am! I am!

[Desertrat]

Well, dead's dead. In the U.S. if you omit the ghetto guns'n'drugs stuff, with its predominantly black-on-black homicides, the homicide rate in the U.S. is right in with that of Europe. Homicide for most of the U.S. and for Europe is not a guns issue, it's a human-factor issue.

European data for 1990 from "The Economist". U.S. data for 1992 from Uniform Crime Reports.

Homicides per 100,000 population:

Britain, 7.4 France, 4.6 Germany, 4.2 Italy, 6.0 USA, 9.3 US Whites, 5.1 US Blacks, 43.4 This last number is one helluva tragedy.

Germany and France are obvious safer than in Britain, with its 50% higher homicide rate. :)

Note that this is "homicides", which means "all weapons". Of the roughly 28,000 homicides in the US in 1992, over half were committed via knives, clubs, fists or feet.

Maybe it's just that Europeans like to get "up close and personal" when they commit a homicide. Kick the guy to death, or watch the blood splatter with the use of a knife. Bash his head in with a club, I dunno. Maybe the motto over there is, "A gun's no fun!"

Regardless, I'd just as soon be alive with a gun, rather than in the hospital or dead from not having had one. To go through life relying on others' good will for your own continued existence strikes me as rather naive.

Sure, it would be nice if the only considered purpose for a firearm were hunting or target shooting, and self-defense weaponry could be put down for good. Truly fine! I wish there were such a world. But, wish in one hand and poop in the other and see which fills up first.

Neserk, how often do you walk around Watts, or areas of south or east LA? Or Hunters Point in SF? Do you like to party in the barrios? Or do you, quite rationally, avoid those areas like the plague?

'Rat

[Voltron]

I think the right to bear arms stops when you step in to public domain... you can keep as many guns in your house as you want for sports or self-defense but don't take any time to restaurnts, movie theatres... etc. Also, americas who say they need a automatic rifle or SMG "self-defense" is deluded. Also, gun locks and child-safe gun control devices should be mandatory on all guns and not optional. best compromise i can think off to appease the gun lovers and te gun-haters.
A gun with a lock can't be used in self defense.
If you have time to unlock the lock then you have time to run and the gun therefore wasn't necessary. It is for those times where you don't have time to run and thus no time to unlock a lock that you need a gun handy to defend yourself. So the gunlock argument is ridiculous.

Yes if you have kids in your home then the argument of what is more important protecting yourself from others or protecting your kids from themselves. Then the argument changes.

[Voltron]

To "normal" people (i.e. us Europeans :rolleyes: ) these gun threads just seem to be insane. NOBODY here (except a few gangstas who seem to like shooting each other) carries, or wants to carry, a gun. The police are for the most part unarmed, and so are the criminals. As far as I can see, the likelihood of somebody getting shot is considerably lower if nobody has a gun. This revolutionary concept may come as a shock to some of you (YOU know who you are! :cool: ) but it does make sense. Kinda. Maybe you should try it. :rolleyes:
We live in the realm of reality you will never set up a situation in a country where nobody has a gun. You cannot stop the influx of illegal drugs not even in England what makes you think you could stop the influx of illegal weapons. Besides guns aren't that hard to make if you put your mind to it.

Desertrat Mace also ordinary individuals can and have become highly resistent to such items. I got hit with tear gas way too many times while I was in the army and I learned to ignore the side effects, long as I kept my hands away from my eyes it don't bother me. True that was a long time and I myself may have lost my resistances, but others might not. Some are naturally resistant.

I to was brought up with guns in the household. So was all my neighbors, nobody would've been impressed if I pulled one out for show and tell. My peers would've kicked my tail if I thought about waving one around for fun. Guns were tools and we used them properly or not at all. We had rules like if you can't win a fight with fists, then lose. If he won't leave you alone after you lose once or twice, then get buddy's to take care of the problem for you. We didn't have to resort to knives or guns.

[Neserk]

I to was brought up with guns in the household. So was all my neighbors, nobody would've been impressed if I pulled one out for show and tell. My peers would've kicked my tail if I thought about waving one around for fun. Guns were tools and we used them properly or not at all. We had rules like if you can't win a fight with fists, then lose. If he won't leave you alone after you lose once or twice, then get buddy's to take care of the problem for you. We didn't have to resort to knives or guns.


What a violent childhood you had.

[skunk]

We live in the realm of reality you will never set up a situation in a country where nobody has a gun. You cannot stop the influx of illegal drugs not even in England what makes you think you could stop the influx of illegal weapons. Besides guns aren't that hard to make if you put your mind to it.
Your reality is clearly one in which everyone goes around ready to kill. Of course there ARE guns in England, it's just that there are very few, and very few people want them. It's a different reality. I prefer it.

[Neserk]

Your reality is clearly one in which everyone goes around ready to kill. Of course there ARE guns in England, it's just that there are very few, and very few people want them. It's a different reality. I prefer it.


Wow if it were sunny there I'd seriously consider moving...

[Krizoitz]

Sorry, I'm generalizing again. How's this. Many nations follow anti-gun policy with genocide.

So, it's obviously not a perfect correlation, but I bet in a statistical study the R-square would be above .5, and probably closer to .75. Britain is an exception, not the rule.

Oh so close. Yes there may be a correlation, but that doesn't equal CAUSATION. You are assuming as so many do that correlation and causation are the same. In this case I believe they are correlated because they are CAUSED by another source. However that doesn't mean that taking away guns and genocide follows. It means that both can happen as a result of another cause, which in the cases that you have mentioned are totalitarian regimes.

As for the second ammendment, try and take it in the historical context. Arms at the that time were often necessary for survival. In addition they wre terribly inefficient. A trained musketeer could fire six shots in a minute. Hard to do a drive by shooting with that rate of fire. Not to mention that minnie balls were less acurate.

Regardless, simply because something is in the constitution doesn't mean it should be. I seem to remember an amendment that declared blacks to be 3/5 of a person. The second amendment is a historical anachronism. While I think that some people can be responsible gun owners, i'm fairly certain that owing an assault rifle isn't what the Founding Fathers had in mind.

As for the anti-tyranny argument, that allowing the populace to own guns is a deterent to gov't taking powers. Um, do you think you can shoot down a fighter jet with your .22? Nope. So the options are to allow the populace ownership of military quality weapons such as anti-tank missles, grenade launchers and tanks, or admit that armed resistance isn't going to do much. Frankly I think granting people the right to those weapons would be insanely stupid.

The perfect solution however, is one my mother suggested to me. Let people keep their guns. Make ammunition, and ammunition making tools illegal.

[Desertrat]

skunk, where in the world do you come up with this "ready to kill" nonsense? Looking at your homicide rate there in Merrye Olde, I'd say y'all are doing just fine as it is.

Hell's bells, my last fist-fight was in 1951, being maybe number 5 or 7 in my school-years' tenure. I'm violent? Yet, I've been around guns since around 1941. (I note y'all were damned glad to get the gifts of our civilians' guns to you British folks, back then. Y'all were real worried about having to learn German, as I recall.)

I suggest not projecting your own ideas about guns and violence onto others' behavior. It's not only insulting, it's erroneous.

Neserk, you're a lot better off in Germany than England; much less violence, particularly of the home-entry style. It's no longer the case that one's home is one's castle, in law.

'Rat

[Neserk]

Neserk, you're a lot better off in Germany than England; much less violence, particularly of the home-entry style. It's no longer the case that one's home is one's castle, in law.

'Rat

Ahh, but I speak the language of England and not of Germany ;)

[Neserk]

skunk, where in the world do you come up with this "ready to kill" nonsense? 'Rat

Well, from the way you and Vol describe things... it is no wonder he gets that impression...

[Neserk]

http://www.ichv.org/suicideandguns.htm

*A May 2003 article in the Minneapolis Star Tribune reported that nearly two-thirds of teen suicides involve family-owned firearms.



FACT: Suicide is still the leading cause of firearm death in the U.S., representing 57% of total gun deaths nationwide. In 2001, firearm suicides totaled 16,869 of all gun deaths in the U.S., an increase of 5% from 2000. Gun suicides in Illinois for 2001 totaled 505, an increase of 17% from 2000.


- Numbers obtained from Centers for Disease Control (CDC) website, November 2003

FACT: Not surprisingly, most suicides in the U.S. are committed with firearms. In 2001, 55% of all suicides in the U.S. were committed with guns. On average,68% of suicides for youth ages 15-24 are committed with guns.


- Centers for Disease Control (CDC) website, November 2003; John McIntosh, 1995 Statistical Training Aides, American Association of Suicidology, Washington, DC, 1998

FACT: Access to lethal means, especially firearms, greatly increases the likelihood that someone will commit suicide. A gun in the home is 11 times more likely to be used to attempt or commit a suicide than to be used in self-defense.


- Arthur Kellerman, Journal of Trauma, August 1998

FACT: Homes with guns are 5 times more likely to experience the suicide of a household member than homes without guns.


- Arthur Kellerman, New England Journal of Medicine, 1993, and Peter Cummings, American Journal of Public Health, 1997)


FACT: In 2001, a total of 928 young Americans ages 10-19 committed suicide with firearms. Unlike suicide attempts using other methods, suicide attempts with guns are nearly always fatal, meaning a temporarily depressed teenager will never get a second chance at life. Nearly two-thirds of all completed teenage suicides involve a firearm.


- Numbers obtained from Centers for Disease Control (CDC) website, November 2003

FACT: Unlike suicide attempts using other methods, 92% of suicide attempts with guns are fatal.


- Wintemute, et. al., "The Choice of Weapons in Firearm Suicides," American Journal of Public Health, Vol 78, No. 7, July 1988, p. 824.

FACT: The firearms used in 72% of unintentional firearm deaths and injuries and in firearm suicide attempts and completions for people ages 0-19 were stored in the residence of the victim, their relative, or their friend.


- Harborview Injury Prevention and Research Study, published in the Archives of Pediatric & Adolescent Medicine, August 1999

FACT: 48% of gun-owning households with children do NOT regularly make sure that guns are equipped with child safety locks or other trigger locks.


- Peter Hart Research Associates Poll, July 1999

FACT: In 2001, gun violence killed 1,289 Illinois residents:


747 in homicides (58% of all IL gun deaths)
505 in suicides (39% of all IL gun deaths)
20 in unintentional shootings (2% of all IL gun deaths), and
17 in legal interventions or undetermined incidents (1 % of all IL gun deaths).
This is an increase of 14% overall from 2000 data for Illinois gun deaths.

- Numbers obtained from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) National Center for Health Statistics WISQARS online data service, November 2003

[Neserk]

http://www.ichv.org/kidsandguns.htm


FACT: In 2001, gun violence killed 2,937 American children and teens (ages 19 and under) in murders, suicides and unintentional shootings, an average of 8 young people each day in the U.S. While this is a welcome decrease of nearly 106 youth from 2000 data, it is still too many American young people killed with guns each year.


- Numbers obtained from Centers for Disease Control (CDC) website, November 2003

FACT: In 2001, gun violence killed 175 children and adolescents ages 19 and younger in Illinois, a welcome decrease of 6% from the year 2000 total of 187.


- Numbers obtained from Centers for Disease Control (CDC) website, November 2003

FACT: Unintentional firearm deaths in Illinois increased 66% from 12 in 2000 to 20 in 2001.


- Numbers obtained from Centers for Disease Control (CDC) website, November 2003

FACT: The firearms used in 72% of unintentional firearm deaths and injuries, and in firearm suicide attempts and completions, for people ages 0-19 were stored in the residence of the victim, their relative, or their friend.


- Harborview Injury Prevention and Research Study, published in the Archives of Pediatric & Adolescent Medicine, August 1999

FACT: 48% of gun-owning households with children do NOT regularly make sure that guns are equipped with child safety locks or other trigger locks.


Peter Hart Research Associates Poll, July 1999

FACT: Despite popular belief, young children do possess the physical strength to fire a gun: 25% of 3 to 4 year olds, 70% of 5 to 6 year olds, and 90% of 7 to 8 year olds can fire most handguns.


- Naureckas, SM, Christoffel, KK, et al. Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, 1995



FACT: More than 3,500 students were expelled in 1998-99 for bringing guns to school. Of these, 43% were in elementary or junior high school. This means that, in a 40-week school year, an average of 88 children per week nationwide are expelled for bringing a gun in school. And these figures include only the children who get caught.


- U.S. Department of Education. Report on State Implementation of the Gun-Free Schools Act: School Year 1998-99. October 2000, p.2

FACT: During 1999, 52% of all murder victims younger than age 18 were killed by guns, and 82% of murder victims aged 13 to 19 years old were killed by guns. In 1986, guns were used in 38% of murders in the same age groups.

- FBI Uniform Crime Reports for 1999, table 2.11.

FACT: In 2001, a total of 928 young Americans ages 10-19 committed suicide with firearms. Unlike suicide attempts using other methods, suicide attempts with guns are nearly always fatal, meaning a temporarily depressed teenager will never get a second chance at life. Nearly two-thirds of all completed teenage suicides involve a firearm.

- Numbers obtained from Centers for Disease Control (CDC) website, November 2003

FACT: 59% of students in grades six through twelve know where to get a gun if they want one, and two thirds of these students say they can acquire a firearm within 24 hours.


- Harvard School of Public Health
FACT: In 2001, the gun death rate for African-American males ages 15 to 19 was 92 per 100,000, a huge disparity compared to white males of the same age (19 per 100,000). For black males ages 20-24, the gun death rate is an astounding 224 per 100,000, again a huge disparity compared to white males of the same age group (21 per 100,000).


- Numbers obtained from Centers for Disease Control (CDC) website, November 2003

[Neserk]

http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm#generalstats

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."
-Dwight D. Eisenhower, U.S. general and 34th president (1890-1969)


SPECIAL REPORT: Results from Report Published in the New Scientist

The lastest issue of New Scientist magazine contains a report about life-saving technologies for guns that should be implemented as standards for the gun industry. Click here to view the online report. In addition to pushing for existing technologies to be incorporated into gun industry processes, the report also cited new data on the risks of guns. Here are some facts from the report:

People who keeps guns at home have a 72% greater chance of being killed by firearms and are 3.44 times more likely to commit suicide than those who do not keep guns at home (Annals of Emergency Medicine, Vol 41, p. 771).
A recent survey of 236 types of pistols made in the U.S. found that:
only 13% had a loaded chamber indicator
only 20% had a grip safety to make it harder for children to use the gun
only 21% had a magazine safety, which prevents the gun from firing when the magazine has been removed, even if there is already a round in the chamber of the gun
(Annals of Emergency Medicine, Vol 41, p 1)
A recent Emory University study shows that 32% of unintended shootings in the U.S. are caused by deficiencies in gun design. (Annals of Emergency Medicine, Vol 41, p 10)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

General Gun Violence Statistics
Back to top

FACT: In 2001, gun violence killed 29,573 Americans:


11,348 in homicides (38% of all US gun deaths)
16,869 in suicides (57% of all US gun deaths)
802 in unintentional shootings (3% of all US gun deaths), and
554 in legal interventions or undetermined incidents (2% of all US gun deaths)
This is an increase of 3% overall from 2000 gun deaths. Clearly too many Americans are being killed by a preventable problem.

- Numbers obtained from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) National Center for Health Statistics WISQARS online data service, November 2003

FACT: In 2001, gun violence killed 1,289 Illinois residents:


747 in homicides (58% of all IL gun deaths)
505 in suicides (39% of all IL gun deaths)
20 in unintentional shootings (2% of all IL gun deaths), and
17 in legal interventions or undetermined incidents (1 % of all IL gun deaths).
This is an increase of 14% overall from 2000 data for Illinois gun deaths.

- Numbers obtained from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) National Center for Health Statistics WISQARS online data service, November 2003

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:


373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States
(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).

- Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence



FACT: Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under age 15 occurred in the United States.


- Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence


FACT: Despite popular belief, young children do possess the physical strength to fire a gun: 25% of 3 to 4 year olds, 70% of 5 to 6 year olds, and 90% of 7 to 8 year olds can fire most handguns.


- Naureckas, SM, Christoffel, KK, et al. Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, 1995

FACT: Taxpayers pay more than 85% of the medical cost for treatment of firearm-related injuries.


- Martin M, et al. "The Cost of Hospitalization for Firearm Injuries." JAMA. Vol 260, November 25, 1998, pp 3048, and Ordog et al. "Hospital Costs of Firearm Injuries." Abstract. Journal of Trauma. February 1995, p1)

FACT: While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.

- Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu. Rev. Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40


FACT: In a ten year span, 1988 to 1997, 633 law enforcement officers were feloniously killed by firearms in America. A handgun was the murder weapon in 78% (492 victims) of the fatal incidents. Over the same period of time, rifles killed 106 officers and shotguns killed 35 officers. A total of 253 law enforcement officers were slain while equipped with body armor.


- U.S. Department of Justice

FACT: From 1977 to 1996, the U.S. firearm industry produced 85,644,715 firearms, 39,024,786 handguns, 26,651,062 rifles and 19,969,867 shotguns in the United States.


- Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

FACT: As of 1994, 44 million Americans owned more than 192 million firearms, 65 million of which were handguns. Although there were enough guns to have provided every U.S. adult with one, only 25% of adults owned firearms. Seventy-four percent (74%) of gun owners possessed two or more firearms.


- National Institute of Justice, May 1997

FACT: Every two years more Americans die from firearm injuries than the total number of American soldiers killed during the 8-year Vietnam War. In 1999, the total number of people killed by guns in the United States was 28,874,a 6% decrease from 1998 figures.


- Based on data from CDC National Center for Health Statistics report "Deaths: Final Data for 1999." Vol. 49, No. 8

Teens Say It's Easy To Get Guns

A nationwide survey about teenagers attitudes toward guns, conducted in 2003, found that:


39% Number of teens who said they know someone who has been shot
37% of teenagers could get a handgun "if I really wanted to"
27% know of a handgun kept in their house, apartment or car
59% do not believe that "video games can make teenagers violent"
56% do not want armed security guards patrolling their schools
90% do not believe that teachers and principals should be able to "bring handguns to school to protect students"

Source: Teenage Research Unlimited, June 2003.



According to the Chicago Police Department 2002 annual report:

Chicago ended 2002 with 647 homicides, 3% fewer than in 2001. Of the 2002 Chicago homicides, 511 (or 79%) were shot to death with a firearm.



Data from the Centers For Disease Control and Prevention show that:

Everyday in the United States, 8 young Americans ages 19 and under are killed in gun homicides, suicides, and unintentional shootings.
For every child killed by a gun, four more are wounded.

[skunk]

skunk, where in the world do you come up with this "ready to kill" nonsense?
Perhaps it's all the implied threat. Maybe in your case, being a frontiersman and all, owning a gun is justified. For the lions and stuff. But if you're NOT "ready to kill", you wouldn't have one. That's what they do.

Hell's bells, my last fist-fight was in 1951, being maybe number 5 or 7 in my school-years' tenure. I'm violent?
I don't believe I said you were.

(I note y'all were damned glad to get the gifts of our civilians' guns to you British folks, back then. Y'all were real worried about having to learn German, as I recall.)
I expected better taste from you, 'Rat.

I suggest not projecting your own ideas about guns and violence onto others' behavior. It's not only insulting, it's erroneous.
No insult intended. Just an observation. No guns=no shootings: it's not rocket science. Just look at the figures.

It's no longer the case that one's home is one's castle, in law.

'Rat
Never was, unless you had a castle.

Seriously, though, gun ownership seems to stifle the art of compromise, certainly the incentive for it. Look at Shrub: mass killing as a substitute for diplomacy. It's because he has too many damned guns.

[skunk]

General Gun Violence Statistics

FACT: In 2001, gun violence killed 29,573 Americans:

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States
(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).

FACT: Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under age 15 occurred in the United States.

FACT: While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.

FACT: In a ten year span, 1988 to 1997, 633 law enforcement officers were feloniously killed by firearms in America. A handgun was the murder weapon in 78% (492 victims) of the fatal incidents. Over the same period of time, rifles killed 106 officers and shotguns killed 35 officers. A total of 253 law enforcement officers were slain while equipped with body armor.

FACT: From 1977 to 1996, the U.S. firearm industry produced 85,644,715 firearms, 39,024,786 handguns, 26,651,062 rifles and 19,969,867 shotguns in the United States.

FACT: As of 1994, 44 million Americans owned more than 192 million firearms, 65 million of which were handguns. Although there were enough guns to have provided every U.S. adult with one, only 25% of adults owned firearms. Seventy-four percent (74%) of gun owners possessed two or more firearms.

FACT: Every two years more Americans die from firearm injuries than the total number of American soldiers killed during the 8-year Vietnam War. In 1999, the total number of people killed by guns in the United States was 28,874,a 6% decrease from 1998 figures.

Thank you for these insane statistics. How anybody can defend this state of affairs is beyond me. I remember one notable statistic myself: at the height of the Northern Ireland "troubles", there were still more people murdered in New York City in one week than in the WHOLE of the UK (including NI) in a YEAR. I know NY has moved way down the league table since then, but that was a real shocker.

I'm also deeply uncomfortable with the possibility - probability - that a lot of the right to bear arms crap (present company excepted) derives from a deep-seated racism, a morbid fear of revolting slaves: the congruence of the NRA and the KKK certainly points that way.

[Krizoitz]

Originally Posted by Neserk

General Gun Violence Statistics

FACT: In 2001, gun violence killed 29,573 Americans:

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States
(*Please note that these 1998 numbers account only for HOMICIDES, and do not include suicides, which comprise and even greater number of gun deaths, or unintentional shootings).

FACT: Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under age 15 occurred in the United States.

FACT: While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.

FACT: In a ten year span, 1988 to 1997, 633 law enforcement officers were feloniously killed by firearms in America. A handgun was the murder weapon in 78% (492 victims) of the fatal incidents. Over the same period of time, rifles killed 106 officers and shotguns killed 35 officers. A total of 253 law enforcement officers were slain while equipped with body armor.

FACT: From 1977 to 1996, the U.S. firearm industry produced 85,644,715 firearms, 39,024,786 handguns, 26,651,062 rifles and 19,969,867 shotguns in the United States.

FACT: As of 1994, 44 million Americans owned more than 192 million firearms, 65 million of which were handguns. Although there were enough guns to have provided every U.S. adult with one, only 25% of adults owned firearms. Seventy-four percent (74%) of gun owners possessed two or more firearms.

FACT: Every two years more Americans die from firearm injuries than the total number of American soldiers killed during the 8-year Vietnam War. In 1999, the total number of people killed by guns in the United States was 28,874,a 6% decrease from 1998 figures.


I may disagree with you on some issues Neserk, but on this issue a big two thumbs up. Three cheers! Hip hip hooray! Hip hip hooray! Hip hip hooray!

[Desertrat]

Well, hip, hip, hooey.

Per the CDC, homicides via firearms are about 14,000 per year in the U.S. The rate has been declining since its peak around 1993 of roughly 17,000.

Again, the majority of homicides in the U.S. are by other means than guns.

'Rat

[mactastic]

Wow. Another 'guns are good NO THEY AREN'T YES THEY ARE!' thread. I'm shocked I tell you. Shocked. And we can't agree on anything? It's not like this subject hasn't been covered to death time and time again here...

[takao]

Again, the majority of homicides in the U.S. are by other means than guns.

most driving accidents because somebodyis driving too fast .. but does the police ignore the drunken drivers because of that ?

no .. police try to stop both.. those driving to fast and the drunken drivers

[Neserk]

Well, hip, hip, hooey.


'Rat

Pardon me if I'm crossing a line but you seem a little crabby, lately.

[mcfudd]

Again, the majority of homicides in the U.S. are by other means than guns.

Very true. How about alcohol related traffic deaths.

Also, many, many, many of the homicides in the country are drug related. If drugs were legalized --- there would be no more black market, no more gangs fighting to protect their "turf", and so on.

Just look what happened in the mid 1900s when Prohibition was repealed. The bootlegers and the gang wars related to the illegal distrabution of alcohol virtually disapeared.

It is not the guns. They are the scapegoat for a deeper problem.

[skunk]

Very true. How about alcohol related traffic deaths.

Also, many, many, many of the homicides in the country are drug related. If drugs were legalized --- there would be no more black market, no more gangs fighting to protect their "turf", and so on.

Just look what happened in the mid 1900s when Prohibition was repealed. The bootlegers and the gang wars related to the illegal distrabution of alcohol virtually disapeared.

It is not the guns. They are the scapegoat for a deeper problem.
Yup. 'Sright. :rolleyes: