Apple to Build $1 Billion Server Farm in NC

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/07/apple-to-build-1-billion-server-farm-in-nc/)

Apple's plans (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/05/23/apple-planning-new-server-farm-in-north-carolina/) for a $1 billion server farm in North Carolina has been officially announced (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/597/story/820351.html).:“This opportunity is… fabulous,” Catawba County Economic Development President Scott Millar said at a joint meeting of county commissioners and Maiden town council. “We went after it very hard.”In order to attract Apple to the location, North Carolina offered a $46 million tax break over the next 10 years. Negotiations over the data center have been ongoing since September. The benefits to the local economy include 50 full time jobs, 250 indirect jobs, as well as an impact of up to 3,000 jobs in related industries.

The location will involve the construction of a 500,000 square foot building and is expected to be completed in 2010. The exact usage for the location has not been revealed. While Apple makes the bulk of its income through hardware sales, the company has increasingly been positioning itself as a services company that may require large server farms to support.

Article Link: Apple to Build $1 Billion Server Farm in NC (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/07/apple-to-build-1-billion-server-farm-in-nc/)

[thegoldenmackid]

Was this not reported like a couple of months ago?

NVM, I'm not thinking...anyway I guess the servers will join me in North Carolina.

[APG]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_0 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7A341 Safari/528.16)

Yeah, but now it's confirmed

[Peace]

Was this not reported like a couple of months ago?


Sort of. Now it's official.:)

[kkat69]

Wife's brother went to bid on the construction of the site, but looks like someone undercut their bid. Oh well, that's business.



Good luck NC.

[Tower-Union]

C'mon 1080p over iTunes. . . and larger selection. . . and an new AppleTV :cool:

[KingYaba]

C'mon 1080p over iTunes. . .

Good luck with that. :)

[HkyNC]

I live in the area and hoping Apple can twist AT&T into finally putting 3G service in the area.

[iAlexG]

I would love to get Apple TV when there is more HD Content available. Then it would be a more worthwhile investment.

[gilkisson]

I live in the area and hoping Apple can twist AT&T into finally putting 3G service in the area.

I think that's a safe bet. One AT&T tower, right nearby.

Or, perhaps more likely, the Apple NC Campus will be covered with WiFi.

Can't have all those iPhones living on the Edge, can we?

[AidenShaw]

I would love to get Apple TV when there is more HD Content available. Then it would be a more worthwhile investment.

Do you mean "more 5 Mbps 720p 'HD' content", or "more HD content"?

Until downloads increase the bit rate and quality, I'll stick with OTA and BD.

[cg0def]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_0 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7A341 Safari/528.16)

Yeah, but now it's confirmed

And it's a really slow news day ... anyway, I'd rather read about how apple's stock is falling than a post about something that was announced 6 months ago ( and FYI it was official even back then ).

[DELLsFan]

Congratulations, North Carolina! Now that Apple has landed that sweet deal on their taxes for 10 years, who's going to pick up that slack, pay for all those unlisted expenses ... you know, the ones to pay for the police, pay to fix the roads, the schools? Who's going to fork over all those taxes Apple would have otherwise paid? That's right ... YOU are! I hope it's worth it. :cool:

Oh, and who wants to bet they'll pull the plug on this server farm in 2020 - looking for someone else to kiss their Apple?

[BBCWatcher]

North Carolina taxpayers are quite literally paying all of Apple's labor costs for this data center for 10 years. A $46 million tax break over 10 years is equal to $92,000 per year per direct employee.

That seems like an awfully poor return on investment for taxpayers.

Also bear in mind that Apple doesn't actually need the $46 million. Apple has a couple tens of billions sitting in the bank already. It is an extremely profitable company.

[liquidfuel]

I live in the area and hoping Apple can twist AT&T into finally putting 3G service in the area.

3G service is supposed to be available there by Sept. 15, 2009.

[gilkisson]

Before you criticize too quickly, come visit that portion of NC. Look at the jobs available. Look at the per-capita income.

This is a win for the entire region.

[Eriamjh1138@DAN]

$1 billion in XServes? Apple should use Dells. :D

[clayj]

North Carolina taxpayers are quite literally paying all of Apple's labor costs for this data center for 10 years. A $46 million tax break over 10 years is equal to $92,000 per year per direct employee.

That seems like an awfully poor return on investment for taxpayers.

Also bear in mind that Apple doesn't actually need the $46 million. Apple has a couple tens of billions sitting in the bank already. It is an extremely profitable company.A lot of us NC taxpayers are pretty pissed off about this whole thing, actually. Our state has become (in)famous for throwing vast sums of taxpayer dollars at companies like Google and Dell and getting very little in return -- certainly not enough to make up for our "investment". And the jobs at the Maiden facility will almost certainly all be low-paying technician jobs.

[iPhoneNYC]

I guess the bulk of the jobs are in the construction. But any job is quite welcome right now.

[ltud]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the state government is giving them a tax break, how is that costing the state money? They are just reducing the amount of tax Apple will pay, in order to entice them to NC.

Unless the server farm places more strain on the NC infrastructure than the balance of the tax bill, then the state is still ahead.

We have a similar situation in my city, the mayor gave a large corporation a tax break to convince them to build a facility out near the city line, rather than in another city. The construction of this facility will cost the city no money, and create jobs, yet people complain about it, I don't understand.

[guzhogi]

$1 billion in XServes? Apple should use Dells. :D

I don't know the details, but I'm sure the $1 billion is not just for the servers, but also to buy the land, cost of building the actual building, etc.

[Jayomat]

I don't know the details, but I'm sure the $1 billion is not just for the servers, but also to buy the land, cost of building the actual building, etc.

:rolleyes:

[Glideslope]

North Carolina taxpayers are quite literally paying all of Apple's labor costs for this data center for 10 years. A $46 million tax break over 10 years is equal to $92,000 per year per direct employee.

That seems like an awfully poor return on investment for taxpayers.

Also bear in mind that Apple doesn't actually need the $46 million. Apple has a couple tens of billions sitting in the bank already. It is an extremely profitable company.

Obviously you have never been to this part of NC. 10 years from now an entire High Tech Microcosm will occupy what is currently nothing.

This is how the world works. NC Taxpayers are not investors unless NC sells bonds to back the cuts. I have read nothing on this.

Kudos to NC. They put up one hell of a fight. :apple:

[Rocketman]

I want to be their neighbor and run fiber to their CO. :)

That ought to cover my iTunes and App store download requirements. :)

Rocketman

[Glideslope]

A lot of us NC taxpayers are pretty pissed off about this whole thing, actually. Our state has become (in)famous for throwing vast sums of taxpayer dollars at companies like Google and Dell and getting very little in return -- certainly not enough to make up for our "investment". And the jobs at the Maiden facility will almost certainly all be low-paying technician jobs.

Ah yes, I see. You're the type who prefers the low paying Chinese, or Malaysian Tech Jobs?

Wake up. This is your future without a post graduate or preferably a doctoral degree. :apple:

[solarkismet]

North Carolina taxpayers are quite literally paying all of Apple's labor costs for this data center for 10 years. A $46 million tax break over 10 years is equal to $92,000 per year per direct employee.

That seems like an awfully poor return on investment for taxpayers.

Also bear in mind that Apple doesn't actually need the $46 million. Apple has a couple tens of billions sitting in the bank already. It is an extremely profitable company.

Agreed. If these jobs average $100,000/yr for 20 yrs and NC's tax rate is 5%, they might break even (and that's generous). Sure there are other benefits, but it smacks of a questionable investment of taxpayer money, kind of like sports stadiums.

[iGuardian]

Cloud computing, anyone?

[twoodcc]

very glad that this is confirmed. i'm guessing that this will help mobileme, and the itunes store as well

[ForceQuit]

Agreed. If these jobs average $100,000/yr for 20 yrs and NC's tax rate is 5%, they might break even (and that's generous). Sure there are other benefits, but it smacks of a questionable investment of taxpayer money, kind of like sports stadiums.

Investment? The state is not funding this, it's a tax break. There is no out of pocket expense for the state, but rather there is an inflow of construction jobs increased property values and on-going taxable employee income (I think - Income tax in NC?). One question though is how much strain on community resources (roads, schools). For that a cost-benefit analysis needs to be done. My guess someone did one.

If the state did not offer the tax break, Apple would have gone somewhere else and none of the net-net benefits would have gone to NC. imo .

[Master Chief]

From charlotteobserver.com:

"...In addition to 50 new full-time jobs, the center is expected to bring 250 indirect jobs and Millar said the impact could eventually be 3,000 jobs in related industries..."

I am a bit skeptical about the new jobs, and I wonder how many Apple employees are going to move into the region since Apple can't risk using new employees only. Let's just wait and see what the future brings for the people of Maiden – I for one hope that it's as good as what they are paying for.

Also note the use here of "expected" and "could eventually" which basically means nothing right now.

I would rather have seen a server farm at sea, just like Google is planning one. Which to me appears to be much more ECO friendly, not to mention tax-payer friendly. Anyone noticed this particular piece of text:

"A water source that runs continuously was a big selling point, he said." Required for cooling?

But let's just wait for the building drawings/specs to become public, as that could tell us a lot more :D

[manhattanboy]

what exactly do they grow on a server farm????:confused::confused::confused:

[Tilpots]

Congratulations, North Carolina! Now that Apple has landed that sweet deal on their taxes for 10 years, who's going to pick up that slack, pay for all those unlisted expenses ... you know, the ones to pay for the police, pay to fix the roads, the schools? Who's going to fork over all those taxes Apple would have otherwise paid? That's right ... YOU are! I hope it's worth it. :cool:

Oh, and who wants to bet they'll pull the plug on this server farm in 2020 - looking for someone else to kiss their Apple?

I'll take that bet. How often do you hear of a Billion dollar investment that you give up in 10 years? And all this police, roads and schools talk? For 50 jobs? *facepalm*

North Carolina taxpayers are quite literally paying all of Apple's labor costs for this data center for 10 years. A $46 million tax break over 10 years is equal to $92,000 per year per direct employee.

That seems like an awfully poor return on investment for taxpayers.

Also bear in mind that Apple doesn't actually need the $46 million. Apple has a couple tens of billions sitting in the bank already. It is an extremely profitable company.

46 million dollars is not even 5% of the total investment. Plus it's a tax break. NC is not paying Apple. It's a discount. Like a Blue Light special.;)

A lot of us NC taxpayers are pretty pissed off about this whole thing, actually. Our state has become (in)famous for throwing vast sums of taxpayer dollars at companies like Google and Dell and getting very little in return -- certainly not enough to make up for our "investment". And the jobs at the Maiden facility will almost certainly all be low-paying technician jobs.

Fellow North Carolinian, the investments our state has made are absolutely worth it. Planning for the future is never a bad idea. The investments are up front. The benefits are long term.

Agreed. If these jobs average $100,000/yr for 20 yrs and NC's tax rate is 5%, they might break even (and that's generous). Sure there are other benefits, but it smacks of a questionable investment of taxpayer money, kind of like sports stadiums.

Break even? If Apple wasn't coming here, they'd get $0. $0.

[CartoonHeroII]

what exactly do they grow on a server farm????:confused::confused::confused:

Well, potatoes are grown on potato farms, so it stands to reason that Apple will grow servers on a server farm. Yay for new Xserve models coming in 2010 from NC! Think we'll get our Xserve RAIDS back?

;)

[gangst]

You people who are nailing NC for a questionable investment must be really unaware of good business sense.

North Carolina will easily make a return on this. It is a $1Bn installment $46million is 4.6% of the building costs alone. $46 million is really a drop in the ocean in the scheme of this project, $4.6 million a year, really is small change to NC and Apple. it is probably more of a publicity play from NC.

It is not whether they will make the money back from taxing the employees, it is the jobs this creates, the infrastructure needed to be built, servicing the facility. NC has also made a strategic investment to bring tech companies to the area and diverse the micro-economics of the area, this in the future will protect jobs. On top of this it is not actually known what the actual use of the site is, most likely iTunes store computing. If i lived in NC i wouldn't get my back up over this, I would welcome it.

[queshy]

what exactly do they grow on a server farm????:confused::confused::confused:

all sorts of tasty things :)

[bplein]

Well, potatoes are grown on potato farms, so it stands to reason that Apple will grow servers on a server farm.
;)

If corn oil comes from corn, and olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

;)

[NinjaHERO]

Yay server farms??

What's the over/under on how many times they run this story again before construction begins?

[Master Chief]

You people who are nailing NC for a questionable investment must be really unaware of good business sense.

North Carolina will easily make a return on this. It is a $1Bn installment $46million is 4.6% of the building costs alone. $46 million is really a drop in the ocean in the scheme of this project, $4.6 million a year, really is small change to NC and Apple. it is probably more of a publicity play from NC...
It is actually a total investment of $1 billion, over a period of ten years, and it includes all Apple hardware – go figure.

This is however a good deal because 750 people are said to have work for something like a year, and all but Apple products are being bought from local companies (when possible) or at least from companies in the region.

[chucktown]

I'm glad this is official...I live in Catawba County, North Carolina...

I agree with above poster that this as much a publicity thing as an investment, something that could potentially bring more companies to the region

[deconstruct60]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the state government is giving them a tax break, how is that costing the state money? They are just reducing the amount of tax Apple will pay, in order to entice them to NC.

Unless the server farm places more strain on the NC infrastructure than the balance of the tax bill, then the state is still ahead.


No they are behind. Appleinsider had more info yesterday.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/07/06/apple_set_to_select_maiden_nc_as_site_of_1b_server_farm.html

That picture suggests that this land was formerly a farm. That farm paid property taxes. Apple is probably getting either a large break or don't have to pay at all. That means the county/state money goes down.

Your premise presumes that the folks formerly paying to be on this property were paying money into the county/state that they didn't really need in the first place. ( schools , roads, etc. ) So if it is gone they won't miss it. Or that somehow Apple being there will inject money into the coffers indirectly that will offset what is there.




The construction of this facility will cost the city no money, and create jobs, yet people complain about it, I don't understand.

Construction is a tempory job; in the article they mention one year. This is a 10 year deduction. For many years after construction, whatever incomes construction temporarily brings in, there will be no construction jobs of substance. May be another building they build on same property several years down the road when they fill this one up.

Frankly, what is stop Apple 10 years from now doing the same thing. I'm so poor can't you give me another 10 year break on taxes. "I'll come to your town if I don't have to pull my fair share of the weight" isn't really a good starting point if trying to build a relationship with a community. Sure there will be some who say OK.

Folks are usually queasy about 1 year bonus "for us" and 9 year bonus "for them". You think that is going to balance out?

Then there are probably a few farmers and homeowners who are strapped to come up with property taxes. Here comes Apple with $24 Billion in the bank who gets a free ride. That seem fair at first glance?

There are probably more folks who lost factory jobs who are tweaked because at first blush think that if they had just given their old company a free ride for 10 years their old job would still be there.

If you change things you are going to get a squeaky response out of some subset of a large group.


Also these "tax breaks but we'll make it up in other taxes" situations increasingly rings false with lots of folks. That is the hocus pocus pro sports teams spin when they want communities to pay for their stadiums. Folks in that county likely aren't dim either. Apple isn't going to spend $1 Billion in local stores inside the county. A huge chunk of that is going to go to Duke Energy which is one big company paying another. The little folks are like WTF, trickle down economics? Lots of the money that is being talked about will not be spent in that county. Some of it won't be spent in that state (specialized equipment bought out of state and shipped in.) The "hope" is that somewhere enough is spent in the county/state so that hit breakeven.
So the numbers go all Carl Sagan ' billions and billions ' because if it is enough billions surely the fraction they do get will make up for the $40 million revenue reduction here.

(notice it is now $2 billion as opposed to $1 billion the local development officials are throwing around. )


It is also doubtful that the county facilities won't incur a cost. Bet they need bigger water main going in (for the chillers) and waste water going out than is there now. (unless the old farm sucked down water like a camel.) Likewise there is AT&T data line local but for a top tier data center will need lines from two carriers. Bet someone will be digging and pulling fiber perhaps needing to trench some road sections sometime in the next year. Similarly, there is not obvious electricity substation on the map's picture. Apple will be paying Duke energy for power but bet there is Duke will be screwing around on the roads near there too sometime in the next year.

Usually when companies come in sometimes want vanity street " Acme Corp Way" or something like that which is yet another street to pave and care for (while not paying. ) Not as likely for this, since big data centers are suppose to be undercover and nondescript.


It is one thing when new industrial sites go into old industrial sites.

Frankly it is also a catch-22 too. Google and Apple are in part coming to these places because they are depressed ( which makes often make more energy available and land cheaper). What happens when the areas rebound 10 years from now? Do the moving vans show up and move out the equipment to the next depressed community who is willing to give up even more in taxes?

[gangst]

It is actually a total investment of $1 billion, over a period of ten years, and it includes all Apple hardware – go figure.

This is however a good deal because 750 people are said to have work for something like a year, and all but Apple products are being bought from local companies (when possible) or at least from companies in the region.

What is there to figure about it. $100million investment each year against a $4.6million tax break.

Seems like very reciprocal deal.

[rjflyn]

Having lived in NC for a period of time, I know this particular area. There is not much there. Somebody is going to have to spend a bunch of cash to put this in place. Sounds like Apple is the one that is going to be footing the bill to the tune of $1billion. NC is just giving them a discount on the taxes they have to pay on the property improvements that they might make. Cites and states do this all the time. The people that come to town to work for Apple will buy/build homes. They will pay income and property taxes at the full rates. Remember this is small town rural america. The taxes Apple pays alone could most likely fund the whole county for a year who knows.

[Stately]

Good, good. Next on the agenda Apple, is to become a provider for phone service. ;)

[gangst]

Folks are usually queasy about 1 year bonus "for us" and 9 year bonus "for them". You think that is going to balance out?

Then there are probably a few farmers and homeowners who are strapped to come up with property taxes. Here comes Apple with $24 Billion in the bank who gets a free ride. That seem fair at first glance?

There are probably more folks who lost factory jobs who are tweaked because at first blush think that if they had just given their old company a free ride for 10 years their old job would still be there.



Can't you see that by Apple coming along and setting up shop it strengthens NC's economy. The factory workers, farmers etc who you mention and who may have lost jobs will have greater protection in the future as large installments like this create jobs. The technicians, the delivery men, the security people, the utilities people, the builders, the maintenance men, all these jobs have to come from somewhere and will soak up some of the unemployment in the area. A big tech installment also acts to inspire younger generations to pursue a career in tech. There are nations which would give a lot more than a $46 million tax break for Apple to set up shop and this may have played into NC's 'generosity'.

It isn't about Apple's tax break, it is about the bigger picture. NC can see it, you can't. For a country that prides itself on Capitalist some people are really blind to it.

[deconstruct60]

$46 million is really a drop in the ocean in the scheme of this project, $4.6 million a year, really is small change to ... Apple.

If so insignificant then why should Apple push the tax burden onto those for whom it isn't a drop in the bucket? If true why should Apple make it a condition on their coming to the site?

It is a significant amount of money. Even bigger number over here ... don't pay any attention to the significant number of there. .... that is straight wizard of Oz misdirection.

The US/State/etc. governments are in trouble not because folks reduced revenues because magically money was suppose to show up to replace the revenue reductions. If there is not a clear, straightforward illustration of how the new replacement money shows up .... folks should be skeptical.
The Carl Sagan explanation doesn't cut it either.

[DELLsFan]

I'll take that bet. How often do you hear of a Billion dollar investment that you give up in 10 years? And all this police, roads and schools talk? For 50 jobs? *facepalm*...

On reflection, I'll concede to your point about uprooting in 10 years, but mark your calendar, and remember this day will you? I wonder how property-owning taxpayers' state and city taxes surrounding Apple's server farm will compare now vs. 5 years after completion of your precious?

Forgive me, I am a bit jaded these days. If the schmagoolie politicians in your state are anything like the ones in mine, you can count on any benefits generated by this investment in Apple as being already spent on the bloated programs your state (and others) cannot afford.

Meanwhile, careful with all the facepalming ... cover those eyes long enough and someone will empty your wallet right under your nose. :p

[Master Chief]

What is there to figure about it. $100million investment each year against a $4.6million tax break.

Seems like very reciprocal deal.
The investment isn't a linear one i.e. Apple won't invest $100 million "in the region" each year, and this number covers all operational costs, including all Apple servers (next to all other hardware) which won't come from Maiden/NC as we know. In other words we'll have to reduce this $100 million figure to say $50 million? Or even lower and say $35 million maybe?

It's still a good deal? Yes, but the numbers aren't presented properly (don't trust me but call Maiden Town Hall and ask for specifications, which I tell you here you won't get from them. And why is that?).

[jbernie]

We have a similar situation in my city, the mayor gave a large corporation a tax break to convince them to build a facility out near the city line, rather than in another city. The construction of this facility will cost the city no money, and create jobs, yet people complain about it, I don't understand.

I think the concern/issue people have with getting companies to do something in your area is that they are in effect shopping for the best deal and holding cities/counties/states to ransom by saying give us tax breaks or we wont build/operate/etc in your area.

I fully understand that companies are generally aiming to get the best deal to reduce their costs etc etc.

But lets be honest here, why should a company like Apple with approximately US$30 BILLION in cash need to be influenced by tax breaks of US$48 million over ten years? Tax breaks of US$4.8 million per year when Apple is making BILLIONS in bankable profits per year is enough to make a difference? Either the area they selected is appropriate for what they want to build or isnt, state & local governments whoring themselves out should not make a difference in the decision process.

Target was looking for a new store location in the town I used to live in, they already had a store in the town but wanted to build a Super Target and the current location could not handle the required store size.

They were able to get tax breaks from the local government as they decided to openly discuss the possibility of building a new store literally a few feet outside of the town boundries so that none of the tax revenue they generated would continue to go to the town. After the tax breaks were offered, they built the new store in what is now the main shopping area.

Corporations holding government to ransom over tax revenue is poor form but as no one is willing to ban it, it will continue on until someone somewhere royally screws up and the Feds have to step in.

[Tilpots]

On reflection, I'll concede to your point about uprooting in 10 years, but mark your calendar, and remember this day will you? I wonder how property-owning taxpayers' state and city taxes surrounding Apple's server farm will compare now vs. 5 years after completion of your precious?

Forgive me, I am a bit jaded these days. If the schmagoolie politicians in your state are anything like the ones in mine, you can count on any benefits generated by this investment in Apple as being already spent on the bloated programs your state (and others) cannot afford.

Meanwhile, careful with all the facepalming ... cover those eyes long enough and someone will empty your wallet right under your nose. :p

Politicians are, well, politicians. They've already raided the "Education Lottery" for other projects and the state is now billions in debt. But this is exactly why we need this type of business. It's along term deal that will ultimately pocket the state and the area some much needed cash.

[overcast]

I don't know the details, but I'm sure the $1 billion is not just for the servers, but also to buy the land, cost of building the actual building, etc.

You must be directly involved in this project to get such insider information.

[deconstruct60]

Can't you see that by Apple coming along and setting up shop it strengthens NC's economy.


First off the major point of what you quoted there was to illustration what issues folks may have ( based in the numbers or not ) would have with issue.

Second, just "setting up shop" isn't the point. The point is paying a company to set up shop in your company. That isn't capitalism if it doesn't bring in more money that you cut in revenue. Capitalism is when people pay for what they get. Most everyone else in NC has to pay taxes. Apple is getting a free ride.

That is fine if it brings in more money than they dropped in the break.



The factory workers, farmers etc who you mention and who may have lost jobs will have greater protection in the future as large installments like this create jobs.


If Apple doesn't hire them it won't. If the new Apple employees don't participate with dollars in their local communities it won't either.

Did your local Member of Parliament get the tax payers to build a moat around his/her house too? Wasn't that great stimulus dollars for your community? It brought jobs didn't it? If the London Olympics burns more money that it brings in is that great example of capitalism?


$46 million for 50 long term permanent jobs is very close to $1 million a job. Over ten years that's roughly $100,000 a job per year. Screw all that "billions and billions" fluff. Ponder that. Does that sound like a good deal? Those billions and billions are not going to be for the salaries of those folks. Depending upon how much remote admin they do, perhaps not even close to 1% of that.

If Apple were coming to employ 1,000 folks I think it would be easier for folks to grok that this will pay off. The fact that jobs are so few and likely either very specialized or very low end (pushing pulling equipment, mowing the lawn, guard duty watching the deer go by outside the facility, etc. )

The return is coming from something other than salaries. Any reasonable analysis quickly shows that.

Apple is a computer company show you really think they are going to buy whole lots of computers and charge themselves sales tax. or ... the computers come off the boat and get shipped to data center. On Apple's books that will look as a big asset "spend" (so will count toward their tax deduction). For local NC taxes most likely that will be a big fat zero.

Electricity (unless they set up some huge wind/solar farm) will probably get taxed. Some other equipment may/may not get taxed depending upon where Apple buys it.

If spent to maximize NC tax revenue the $1Billion could add up to offset the deductions Apple is getting. However, the fact is that Apple would only come if they could duck taxes. So how likely is it that they are going to set it up so that NC gets max tax gain on the spend?

If the government folks did some slipshot public policy analysis it may not add up. It doesn't "have to" just because it is 'billions and billions'. It may, but the stuff they had talked about so far from convincing. For instance, if Duke Energy is handing a wads of money they are as likely to buy something outside of NC (another chain of nukes/plants ) as they are to buy something inside. Similarly what tax coffers does the utility tax go into versus the one that is being reduced with the Apple breaks. ( is the state going to be able to rob peter to pay paul to shift that from one bucket to another? )






A big tech installment also acts to inspire younger generations to pursue a career in tech.


50 jobs? What do you think the turnover is going to be like? The majority of those folks who get hired next year will still be in their jobs when the younger folks graduate.

Most of the "work" being done/initiated by people on the machines in the data center will not be in NC.



There are nations which would give a lot more than a $46 million tax break for Apple to set up shop and this may have played into NC's 'generosity'.
.

I'm sure Robert Mugabe would print out a whole stack of money to have Apple comes to his country. If he had to print out 600 billion Zimbabwe dollars per job it might not be a good idea economically for the country.

Carried to the extreme this is also a trap for communities. To fill in a few gaps where the cost benefit works is fine. But to get into bidding wars trying to buy companies to come to your location.... not a good idea. Have to be willing to push back from the table if it doesn't make sense. There are "new" Apples out there also. Some of them may be more long term comitted to the community without the pay off.

If you have to pay someone to be with you, what kind of relationship do you have?

$6.8 million for 183 acres... LOL.. $6.8M wouldn't even get an acre out in Silicon Valley. NC has values going for it.

[krye]

Does this mean that MobileMe won't be so friggin' slow from now on?

[SandynJosh]

Also bear in mind that Apple doesn't actually need the $46 million. Apple has a couple tens of billions sitting in the bank already. It is an extremely profitable company.

...and they intend to stay that way.
How do you suppose they ended up with so much cash? Not by spending money like Michael Jackson.

[deconstruct60]

Corporations holding government to ransom over tax revenue is poor form but as no one is willing to ban it, it will continue on until someone somewhere royally screws up and the Feds have to step in.

The Feds do it too. Why do think the Tax code law runs 1,000s of pages long? LOL.

In measured doses, it can work out favorably for both sides. However, yeah it is almost a game at this point. So many companies get breaks that other companies get bent out of shape that somehow they are being out hustled so they crank up their game too. The ones who don't get a deal are going to moan and groan about how screwed up the system is ( of course is things went their way they'd be happy as pigs in mud).

[SandynJosh]

yadda, yadda, yadda

You stopped making sense right after you quoted an earlier statement.

[adammull]

Why does everyone keep saying my state, dear old NC, is paying Apple $46 million? They aren't paying Apple a dime. They are giving them a tax break of $4.6 million a year. Knowing property taxes in my area, and even more, knowing commercial property taxes on my warehouse that is 100,000 sq plus, Apple will STILL be paying a several million dollar tax bill each year.

You people are idiots. NC threw Apple a bone. We could have either had an empty field, or we give Apple a huge tax break, and it is huge, but still bring in several million a year in taxes, PLUS, the taxes of all 50 employees. Even if NC only nets $1 a year, isn't that dollar better than $0? There is nothing there right now.

Explain your idiotic logic to me again please.

[Apple Corps]

Agreed. If these jobs average $100,000/yr for 20 yrs and NC's tax rate is 5%, they might break even (and that's generous). Sure there are other benefits, but it smacks of a questionable investment of taxpayer money, kind of like sports stadiums.

What are you agreeing with???? NC is not investing / spending any money - they are not at risk with any tax payer $$$.

This sounds to be structured as a tax BREAK - no $$ investment from NC.

[adammull]

$6.8 million for 183 acres... LOL.. $6.8M wouldn't even get an acre out in Silicon Valley. NC has values going for it.

I happen to like our cheap real estate. My state also doesn't have quite the deficit yours does, nor the sub-prime disaster, nor the absolute lack of available land.

Apple could probably build a server farm in ND even cheaper, hell, in this economy, land is probably cheap in any rural area. But they wanted it on the East Coast and I guess NC won.

It isn't a lack of value thing, we're just not as developed and overpopulated. Please, stay out there. Please, we like it nice and empty here. ;)

[kkat69]

Why does everyone keep saying my state, dear old NC, is paying Apple $46 million? They aren't paying Apple a dime. They are giving them a tax break of $4.6 million a year. Knowing property taxes in my area, and even more, knowing commercial property taxes on my warehouse that is 100,000 sq plus, Apple will STILL be paying a several million dollar tax bill each year.

You people are idiots. NC threw Apple a bone. We could have either had an empty field, or we give Apple a huge tax break, and it is huge, but still bring in several million a year in taxes, PLUS, the taxes of all 50 employees. Even if NC only nets $1 a year, isn't that dollar better than $0? There is nothing there right now.

Explain your idiotic logic to me again please.


+1 Better to have a business there and help the local economy than nothing at all.

Guess the people whining and complaining would rather have no work than some work.

And yes, NC isn't investing any money, nor are the people living there. This is a good thing. It's economic stimulation and basic common sense. People get jobs at server farm, people now have cash in pocket, people go out and buy things from local stores, all in all putting money BACK into the local economy.

Apple still has to pay it's local taxes, they just wouldn't pay as much if there wasn't a tax break which is why this was a sweat deal for them and a good deal for the local area. Hell if Apple wanted to build here in north georgia I wouldn't be complaining, more money for the local economy. Those workers gotta eat, sleep, wear clothes, etc. That's good news.

[leRiCl]

The first 10 years NC 'loses' $46 million revenue. People Apple brought to work in the facility will pay taxes every year; They'll bring their families there; They'll buy sandwiches from local sandwich shops on the way to work; They'll refuel their cars in local petrol stations every single year.

The facility will also soak up local unemployment; The unemployed gets paid, on their way to work they buy sandwiches from local shops, etc.

And what about every 10 years after that? Apple will pay $46 million in property taxes, every 10 years after the first; It's a 1 billion dollar facility, I don't think Apple will leave it in 10 years.

30 years for 92 million dollars of tax; Construction work; Jobs for local unemployed; Economy stimulation for every single worker Apple brings in.; Every Single Year.

Hell, our state government would likely give 100 million dollars to Apple in addition to $46 million tax cuts just to have Apple set up a facility in my area. (100 million I think is too much...) $46 million forgone taxes is cheap.

EDIT: And we still haven't mentioned what the local sandwich shop owners would do with their extra revenue.

[Just-A-Nooby]

:apple:sooo, this means that there will be 3G speed arround charlotte and fort mill (which is south of charlotte) instead of edge???:apple:

[nfable]

Guys, why's everyone focusing on the least interesting element sof this announcement: taxes, location, economy, blah... I clicked on this thread for some good ole' speculation. C'mon folks...

MobileMe... is it really worth that kind of investment for Apple?
Some Google/Yahoo/Bing thing... I don't think Ap would want that headache.
Some vast rendering farm for animation / video production... mm.

I would think something to compliment either the iPhone and its accessibility, or iTunes/Apple TV seem like the most reasonable avenues... something to grease the delivery of its more consumer-entertainment-targeted hardware, of which Apple has enjoyed the most violent of success and less on the computers, which remain a steady spine and benefit off the permeation of the Apple brand.

[adammull]

:apple:sooo, this means that there will be 3G speed arround charlotte and fort mill (which is south of charlotte) instead of edge???:apple:

I've never had anything BUT 3G in Charlotte.

Ft. Mill? Nada. Edge.

[AidenShaw]

:apple:sooo, this means that there will be 3G speed arround charlotte and fort mill (which is south of charlotte) instead of edge???:apple:

No reason to make that leap of faith.

No reason to assume that Apple's construction plans influence AT&T's network expansion plans.

[Just-A-Nooby]

thanks... i wasnt shure bout charlotte but i knew ft. mill diddnt have it..:)

[deconstruct60]

I happen to like our cheap real estate. My state also doesn't have quite the deficit yours does, nor the sub-prime disaster, nor the absolute lack of available land.

I like your cheap real estate too.
If your state passes up revenues with non-breakeven payoffs of a couple $100 million a pop to a long list of companies you'll have a deficit also. Substantive contributing reason why CA is in debt is because cut revenue and that had no offsets. ( not just over spending, although that plays a role too. )

There is more farmland that could be flipped into data centers in CA than there is in NC. It is a very big state with huge range in density and land usage.


Apple is unlikely to completely dump the couple data centers have here. Should have a backup somewhere else than the prime one though. (prime could end up the NC one though). East Coast makes sense. Unlikely for both coasts to have major natural disaster at the same time among other things.


If swamping farm property taxes for commercial taxes would jack up the revenue per acre alot then sure the deal pays for itself. Likewise if the "promise to buy local" isn't chock full of easily escaped loopholes. If so why is it described as jobs , jobs , jobs.


from the observer article:


In addition to 50 new full-time jobs, the center is expected to bring 250 indirect jobs and Millar said the impact could eventually be 3,000 jobs in related industries.


5 indirect people for every one person employed? These are $50K jobs; an echo effect of 5? then 60 ?

Taxes on 50 $50K jobs. No way that pays off the amount given by the state on its own.

When government folks point to the stuff that doesn't matter most folks should be concerned. That's not a sign they know what they are doing.



It isn't a lack of value thing, we're just not as developed and overpopulated.

Probably should have stated that as no lack of a value proposition. The underdeveloped / underpopulated / closer to wires heading off to other continents East are part of the value proposition. Which why not handing out an even bigger break (if there is a even bigger boost in property tax increase than the cut.).

[Just-A-Nooby]

No reason to make that leap of faith.

No reason to assume that Apple's construction plans influence AT&T's network expansion plans.

umm it said server farm.... plz clear it up... haha im a n00b

[mackensteff]

Sorry if this was pointed out. Some had hit on it, but I couldn't stand reading the ignorant statements any more.
Do you really think NC only giving to Apple without a return. Now I consider politicians idiots, but one thing they know how to do is line their pockets.
Now Apple is getting a tax break, not tax funding, not a tax revocation, but a tax break. Apple will still pay taxes that will benefit NC, but less then they would have before. Think of the way they collect taxes: income, property, business, sales tax on services as well as the sale of the property... So maybe they get a cut on the property (a business would pay a hell of a lot more in property tax than a farm) but the employees pay income tax (I know a drop in the bucket compared to 4.6 million), but governments have ways to get money. All this deals shows is Apple found a place that suits their needs that will allow them to keep more of their money then some other location.

Taxpayers win! NC wins! Apple wins! Those that don't understand how business and taxes work: FAIL!

I cooled down and went back to read the other comments, and it looks like some others see the big picture. One other source of tax that will be huge is the electricity. I think this was one of the advantages, was local and abundant electricity. Maybe those tax breaks were just for the utilities. Also do you realize the taxes placed on telecommunications. Any of these areas could be the source of the tax break. You can be assured Apple will be paying taxes!

[Chris Rogers]

Why does everyone keep saying my state, dear old NC, is paying Apple $46 million? They aren't paying Apple a dime. They are giving them a tax break of $4.6 million a year. Knowing property taxes in my area, and even more, knowing commercial property taxes on my warehouse that is 100,000 sq plus, Apple will STILL be paying a several million dollar tax bill each year.

You people are idiots. NC threw Apple a bone. We could have either had an empty field, or we give Apple a huge tax break, and it is huge, but still bring in several million a year in taxes, PLUS, the taxes of all 50 employees. Even if NC only nets $1 a year, isn't that dollar better than $0? There is nothing there right now.

Explain your idiotic logic to me again please.

+1

I don't understand the problem. The tax break is insignificant to a STATE, an entire state that I am sure doesn't need this money. There are a lot of complaints about this tax break but how many people even know about the efficiency of how their tax money is being spent? This tax break just means a few higher ups won't be able to get that fancy vacation or six figure bonus, that's all. Apple has xx Billion in the bank how about NC?

The fact that Apple has xx Billion in the bank has nothing to do with whether or not they deserve a tax break. EVERY company bargains for this kind of thing regardless of what they're worth. It's the american way.

[websyndicate]

500,000 square feet aint nothing. Wish I could talk but NDA. FML

[macintoshtoffy]

A lot of us NC taxpayers are pretty pissed off about this whole thing, actually. Our state has become (in)famous for throwing vast sums of taxpayer dollars at companies like Google and Dell and getting very little in return -- certainly not enough to make up for our "investment". And the jobs at the Maiden facility will almost certainly all be low-paying technician jobs.

I'd like you to go to all those possible people who might get a job and say, "we could have enticed companies to this state but instead we decided my ego was more important than you getting a job and climbing the ladder of opportunity".

Btw, given how much the federal government taxes - there should be no reason why the states tax so much - and if North Carolina can't make it on its own, then merge with another state and obtain the economies of scale required to make your state a low tax haven for business to setup in.

[TK2K]

I really wish they'd post tours of these online... so miuch apple porn

[edtorious]

Does Microsoft has their own server farm:confused:

[macintoshtoffy]

Does Microsoft has their own server farm:confused:

Yes they do, they're free range servers which are raised in the wild in accordance to ethical treatment of servers :P

[ThomasJL]

Why couldn't Apple build their server farm in Cupertino?

[macintoshtoffy]

Why couldn't Apple build their server farm in Cupertino?

Because it is too expensive; California is a tax and spend state.

[BBCWatcher]

Yes, it's a tax break. But there will be other direct expenses to North Carolina's taxpayers. The full extent of these expenses are unclear as of yet, but previous commenters have noted what some of them might be.

If Apple did not receive a tax break, they would have still built the data center somewhere. Taxpayers somewhere -- it happens to be North Carolina -- are receiving $46 million less in tax revenue from a company with tens of billions in the bank. Much of the criticism here is that local governments are bidding against each other in a negative-sum game, to hand out tax breaks and often cash simply to steer committed projects across unmarked boundary lines. The whole concept of local governments bidding against each other is rotten and corrupt, and it's against the interests of taxpayers generally. It's massive corporate welfare, and it needs to stop.

It's also worth mentioning that most electricity comes from coal in the United States. Apple's new data center will increase coal burning and thus pollution. So that's another "benefit" North Carolinians -- and anyone else downwind -- get to enjoy. All for a whopping 50 "permanent" jobs that go to North Carolina instead of Kansas or Maryland or some other state.

[AidenShaw]

Because it is too expensive; California is a tax and spend state.

... and California has higher rates for electricity, and those pesky fault lines.

[whooleytoo]

The tax-break isn't exactly anything new - corporations like Apple held all the cards for some time now, with states/countries falling over each other to offer the best terms. Great for the corporations, good for the country that wins (but not as good as it could be).

It's a bit like Apple's site in Ireland, they claimed they set it up due to the English speaking and well-educated workforce; but no doubt it was mostly due to Ireland's very low corporate tax rate and government inducements. When wages rose here, they moved most of the facilities to Taiwan. Easy come, easy go. They still have a large facility here, so presumably, over the 20 or so years, it has been a net benefit to the community.

[adammull]

Yes, it's a tax break. But there will be other direct expenses to North Carolina's taxpayers. The full extent of these expenses are unclear as of yet, but previous commenters have noted what some of them might be.

If Apple did not receive a tax break, they would have still built the data center somewhere. Taxpayers somewhere -- it happens to be North Carolina -- are receiving $46 million less in tax revenue from a company with tens of billions in the bank. Much of the criticism here is that local governments are bidding against each other in a negative-sum game, to hand out tax breaks and often cash simply to steer committed projects across unmarked boundary lines. The whole concept of local governments bidding against each other is rotten and corrupt, and it's against the interests of taxpayers generally. It's massive corporate welfare, and it needs to stop.

It's also worth mentioning that most electricity comes from coal in the United States. Apple's new data center will increase coal burning and thus pollution. So that's another "benefit" North Carolinians -- and anyone else downwind -- get to enjoy. All for a whopping 50 "permanent" jobs that go to North Carolina instead of Kansas or Maryland or some other state.

So now its not a loss of income issue, its an energy and pollution issue? Why all the complaining? As I said before, even if NC only gets a few million a year in taxes, isn't that better than nothing? How can you lament the loss of "potential" tax revenue if you've never had it? You are an idiot.

BTW Nostradamus, I am pretty sure Maiden NC gets its power from the Duke Energy Cowens Ford Hydro Station on Lake Norman, or at worst, from the McGuire Nuclear station, also on Lake Norman. Neither of which are coal.

-NC dweller

[Chris Rogers]

So now its not a loss of income issue, its an energy and pollution issue? Why all the complaining? As I said before, even if NC only gets a few million a year in taxes, isn't that better than nothing? How can you lament the loss of "potential" tax revenue if you've never had it? You are an idiot.

BTW Nostradamus, I am pretty sure Maiden NC gets its power from the Duke Energy Cowens Ford Hydro Station on Lake Norman, or at worst, from the McGuire Nuclear station, also on Lake Norman. Neither of which are coal, so please know what you are talking about before acting like a moron. :rolleyes:

-NC dweller

OH SNAP :p

[andy721]

Apple has well over 60-80 billion left. SO I guess put it to good use from more then half profit from the iphone sales.

[overcast]

Apple has well over 60-80 billion left. SO I guess put it to good use from more then half profit from the iphone sales.

What the hell are you talking about, Apple doesn't have $60 billion or anywhere near that.

[kdarling]

From the Maiden, NC, website:

"Maiden is a member of North Carolina Municipal Power Agency 1, which obtains power from the Catawba Nuclear Station. This association provides Maiden with an abundance of base load generation."

I believe that about 1/3 of North Carolina electric power comes from nuclear plants.

[NT1440]

Apple has well over 60-80 billion left. SO I guess put it to good use from more then half profit from the iphone sales.

Last I heard they had around 29 Billion.....

[jbernie]

Apparently Apple was short on cash, now the Town & County have combined to offer them an extra $20 million in tax breaks.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10282007-37.html?tag=newsEditorsPicksArea.0


Why couldn't Apple build their server farm in Cupertino?

They can build one anywhere there is enough space if the desire is there. But for companies with multiple data centers they like to spread them out across multiple cities/states/countries to lower the risk factor. The physical location of the data center really doesn't matter so long as they have enough power, big enough data pipes & an educated population from which to hire people. In a virtual world you really don't notice (or care) if the iTunes song you are downloading is coming from the data center down the street or some other country.

Microsoft is building a new super data center in Europe (Ireland?) with one influential factor being the climate, the regional temperatures are lower which means they don't need to spend as much on cooling the building which lowers the environmental cost associated to the building.

They will also factor in risks such as earthquakes, hurricanes, power stability, political stability and so on when looking for a location. California can be a great place but do you really want to drop a major data center over a major fault zone? :)

[applecultvictim]

Ah yes, I see. You're the type who prefers the low paying Chinese, or Malaysian Tech Jobs?

Wake up. This is your future without a post graduate or preferably a doctoral degree. :apple:

Your comment is dumb, the guy was making a valid comment.

46 mil. tax cut for 50 full time jobs is the sickest type of joke in this economy. Obviously apple has pocketed a lot of politicians there and is offering very lucrative bribes on the side.

But if in my state these 46 mil was being invested (in terms of a cut that is) in 50 jobs, with this financial climate I d personaly hire 50 jobless guys off the streats to break the legs of these clowns running things that make a mockery of a nation and a world in crisis...much like the other superstars at AEG who were begging the nation to fund them and save their a only to then award themselves real big bonuses.


Really pathetic stuff....

[andy721]

What the hell are you talking about, Apple doesn't have $60 billion or anywhere near that.

Uh yes they do.

Last I heard they had around 29 Billion.....

If they did then they must of used the other half to the iLiver :D

[AidenShaw]

$1 billion in XServes? Apple should use Dells. :D

Since Apple.com doesn't run on OSX, I doubt that their farm will.

[applecultvictim]

Uh yes they do.



If they did then they must of used the other half to the iLiver :D

that was so mean, and so damn funny!!!!

[deconstruct60]

Because it is too expensive; California is a tax and spend state.

What is this Fox News deep insight data center placement knowledge?

No. The primary reason is because they ALREADY HAVE a huge data center in California. If it was absolutely too expensive wouldn't have gotten the first large one here. This NC facility is the second (or 3rd? data centers weren't as "newsworthy" a while ago so not tracked. Pretty sure this second CA facility is adjunct facility to where they used to have the Cray and all of the other back-end stuff before buying this.) large data center Apple bought in last several years.

http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2006/02/27/story5.html


Similarly one of the largest contributors to operating costs for these large centers is power. CA taxes have little to do with power costs in CA. Google , Microsoft , Yahoo, etc. had all been going around the US looking for places where there is cheap, excess (more lots more generation capacity than use) power more so than cheapest real estate. Most of the time that means looking for a nuke oriented uility company/location.


So CA is out just because you do not co-locate large data centers. (especially after having ignored that and have two within 40 miles of each other. ). That the Hayward fault is due for a big one and other factors are almost secondary.

If Apple only had a East Coast data then NC wouldn't have been in the running and CA would be. If going to do world wide coverage from the US need to have two ( one one each coast. )


The property taxes are easier to duck in CA because just don't buy the land and let some Prop 13 land owner lease the dirt sitting on to them. CA already had a huge tax break to match all community breaks... called Prop 13. ( and yeah that is a contributor to the state's current problems. )

[deconstruct60]

They will also factor in risks such as earthquakes, hurricanes, power stability, political stability and so on when looking for a location. California can be a great place but do you really want to drop a major data center over a major fault zone? :)

Just about every location as some problem if just look deeply. There are no natural/major disaster free locations that have major internet bandwidth.

Granted the Hayward fault is due, but it kicks off a major (6.5+) quake only every 140 years.

There are also spots in the Midwest that are also due for a relatively (given their preparedness ) major quake. Nobody talks about those though. LOL.

CA isn't really a good placement location primarily because every major player is already here. It is a saturated location. Curiously ironic that folks want to spin that it is a undesirable location.



an educated population from which to hire people.


For 25 (being generous with 50% for deeply skilled tech jobs there, likely closer to 15), you just hire that many and move them. Apple's announced minimum education level being looked for is a high school diploma. The insidious socialist plot of free high school education for everyone in the US means that is pragmatically universally true in all possible locations. ( tongue in cheek for the socialist adjectives. )

[deconstruct60]

Since Apple.com doesn't run on OSX, I doubt that their farm will.

A major web site is going to have at least 2 if not 3 tiers of servers. One is going to be the public facing tier. That's usually very limited and locked down servers that take requests and funnel the loads machines that really do the work ( unless all doing is serving up static pages. That can be done from read only mounts or mirrored/duplicated content . )

So just because can ping the OS characteristics of the public tier doesn't mean the background tier is the same OS.

It isn't going to be 100% OSX, but a pretty sad statement of the limited value range of Apple's server offerings if they can't significantly leverage them for their own uses in their own data center.

Much of the commerce part of Apple's sites were/are WebObjects based at one point.

There is lots of HVAC, storage, and network gear that will going into the data center too so it won't be all Apple anyway even if the servers were.

[AidenShaw]

A major web site is going to have at least 2 if not 3 tiers of servers. One is going to be the public facing tier. That's usually very limited and locked down servers that take requests and funnel the loads machines that really do the work ( unless all doing is serving up static pages. That can be done from read only mounts or mirrored/duplicated content . )

So just because can ping the OS characteristics of the public tier doesn't mean the background tier is the same OS.


But the "public tier" is the only one where an XServe would even begin to make sense. Often you find large numbers of 1U or blade servers at the web tier - you need tons of CPU and limited I/O to do the dynamic web page handling (.PHP, .ASP and other tools that build the web pages on the fly).

Maybe Apple is running OSX on Hackintosh 24 Core 256 GiB HP ProLiant (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/en/WF06b/15351-15351-3328412-241644-3328422-3454575-3794097-3794098.html) servers in the back end?! :eek:

By the way - I don't mean to imply anything bad about Apple using other equipment for their datacentres. Apple is clearly focussed on the end user and small workgroups (with an XServe or two as workgroup servers, or maybe a cluster of XServes as a render farm).

Apple doesn't care about the enterprise, and a data centre with 10's of thousands of servers and perhaps a couple of hundred thousand or more cores is so far out of their "niche" that it would be silly to try to use Apple products. Buy the ProLiants or Superdomes or PowerEdge or x-Series or z-Series or other servers, run Linux or Solaris or AIX or HPUX or even Windows where it makes sense.

[jbernie]

Just about every location as some problem if just look deeply. There are no natural/major disaster free locations that have major internet bandwidth.

Granted the Hayward fault is due, but it kicks off a major (6.5+) quake only every 140 years.

There are also spots in the Midwest that are also due for a relatively (given their preparedness ) major quake. Nobody talks about those though. LOL.

CA isn't really a good placement location primarily because every major player is already here. It is a saturated location. Curiously ironic that folks want to spin that it is a undesirable location.

Absolutely agree with you... all those 1 in 100 year type events... storms... hurricanes.. tornados... earthquakes, etc etc. It is all about mitigating risk. But then, just by building data centers in many areas around the country/world you are reducing risk assuming there is some form of redundancy as the odds of multiple major events happening in multiple locations at roughly the same time frame is pretty low.

Keeping in mind when it comes to buildings like data centers "roughly the same time could be within a few months or more as catasrophic destruction of one could require months or more to replace.

On a side note, Microsoft and others are working on those container datacenters where you just have lots of containers full of blade servers and once X% of the servers in a specific container fail you just remove that container and replace it with a new one, good for quickly building / replacing / expanding a new or exisiting center.

[nfable]

iNet(book) in October ish... this (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10288475-1.html) in early 10 ish.

I see some streaming power being amassed for the next wave of content management like this service looks to be.

The farm will help push this stuff up thru touches, iphones, and inets (or whatever).

But I honestly don't know what the capabilities are of a 500k sq' of server power can do... can up make them 30 stories tall?

nf

[MrSEC]

What is this Fox News deep insight data center placement knowledge?


NO, your hero's at MSNBC said it.;)