Bush leaves children behind

[CandelLife]

Teachers Want Reform of Bush 'No Child Left Behind Law'

June 02, 2004 | Teachers across the United States are speaking out in a new advertising campaign to call for reform of the Bush 'No Child Left Behind' law. The ads are being unveiled today by teachers and education advocates.




Speaking from personal experience, my oldest son was held back even though he passed the year because he failed the stupid sss FCAT test. The following year he was trying hard and was making better grades, he started out with B's. When he failed the FCAT test this last year he gave up because he said it was pointless, they wouldn't let him pass even if he should so why bother. He is now going to repeat the same grade for the third time all due to this damn FCAT.

This all came about because of Bush's "No child will be left behind plan". Thanks to his plan, my son is now being left behind. I just wanted to say Thanks Bush, wow, what a great idea you had. Pass the FCAT or be left behind. I'm wondering how many children will have to drop out of school before you get it.
~CandelLife


http://www.qualityednow.org/press/release20040602.php

http://www.qualityednow.org/images/header.jpg

The ads are sponsored by Communities for Quality Education (CQE), a new education advocacy group bridging the gap between those inside and outside the education community to develop a sound, workable education policy. The ads begin airing today in Florida, Ohio, Arizona, and Nevada.

Last week, a new website review of education records released by CQE showed hundreds of Florida schools the state ranks as its best are now being labeled as failures under President Bush's No Child Left Behind law. It found 827 top-rated Florida schools have received conflicting ratings from the federal Department of Education.

The findings of CQE's review of state and federal education records are available to the public on its website, www.qualityednow.org. The site also has copies of the new ads featuring the local teachers. On the site, local parents and teachers can share suggestions to make their public schools better and obtain more detailed information regarding which Florida 'A Grade' schools the federal government deems as failing.

:mad:

[Neserk]

I am a bit confused by your post. Do you realize that a parent has the LEGAL right to REFUSE to have their child be retained? If you weren't told this you should sue your school district.

I'm not sure what the FCAT is. In CA they take the CAT-6 and a State Standards test (don't recall the name). You can't pass or fail it. You are scored based on how you did compared to others.

How old is your child? I've never, ever heard of a child being held back because of how they did on a standardized test. I know that some kids aren't going to be given diplomas if they can't pass some high school graduation test... :rolleyes:

I would like to see No Child Left Behind done away with it. It is a joke. But what happened to your child doesn't fit with what I've seen going on.

[zimv20]

<chomp>
i hate it when my browser is forced to scroll left/right. can we cool it on the size 18 and wide image stuff?

[bousozoku]

FCAT is the Floriduh test to determine whether students are up to their grade level. Three different grades are tested including 10th and 3rd, I believe, and they will not proceed to the next grade if they do not pass the test.

It hasn't seemed so successful for various reasons. Some schools divert time from regular studies to drill for the test. Some teachers have been fired for passing along test answers, but it's not clear whether or not they were given the answers by administration.

It's difficult to believe that someone would have to take a grade three times but some don't learn from their mistakes.

We have the double whammy of two Bushes, though.

[Neserk]

FCAT is the Floriduh test to determine whether students are up to their grade level. Three different grades are tested including 10th and 3rd, I believe, and they will not proceed to the next grade if they do not pass the test.

It hasn't seemed so successful for various reasons. Some schools divert time from regular studies to drill for the test. Some teachers have been fired for passing along test answers, but it's not clear whether or not they were given the answers by administration.

It's difficult to believe that someone would have to take a grade three times but some don't learn from their mistakes.

We have the double whammy of two Bushes, though.

Then people need to remove their students from ALL public schools in protest. In CA (and many other states, I'm guessing) you can NOT hold back a child without the parent's consent. Considering that some children *no matter how intelligent* don't do well on standardized test that policy is ridiculous.

[CandelLife]

Yes they can hold your child back without your consent. This is part of the new "no child left behind law" that if the child does not pass the FCAT on certain grades (in my son's case it's 8th grade) that they will be retained. The parent DOES NOT hold the right to refuse this.

FCAT is set up to show the children have been taught what they are supposed to be taught. Problem is that teachers have always altered what is taught. If you remember, there were always some teachers you liked better just because they made the class interesting. However, now there is no time to do this if you want the children to pass. The only (ONLY) thing they will have time to teach is FCAT material, and nothing else. Not to mention constant testing on the material.

SAT is different, at the end of your time in High School, the test scores that are looked at for college purposes.

They want FCAT to be representative of what a child has learned, but it isn't. There are children who are A students who fail the FCAT and are therefore held back from passing the year.

When will this insanity end?

If they want "no child will be left behind" to work, how about making sure they children are not left behind, instead of the way it is now....making sure the smartest ones who have no "freeze-up problems" taking tests are the only ones who will go forward?

Imagine our future.....drop outs every year being higher than before.....after it has hurt too many children having someone come to their senses to fix it. Why not fix it while we can be sure the children will not be left behind, instead of waiting until the numbers are high enough to justify it?

You can look back now and say it's a simple test, but imagine the hardest final of all on the dot forms that get filled out and three of them in one week. When I was in school these FCAT tests meant nothing and we knew it and it didn't matter what we scored on them. Now the system is so wacked that "A" schools are being deemed failures. Would you say there is a problem here that needs addressing?

As much as I hate it, my son will most likely be taking his GED in two years and moving on to college where if you fail a class, you simply repeat the class and not the entire year which is rediculous, but that's another story. He's a computer whiz so I know there are classes there for him and he will succeed, but he will do it no thanks to the public school system...all he can credit them for is failure. His success will come at his own hands after he is out of their trap.

Fix the system, don't ignore it so that we have millions of drop outs and adults qualified for nothing better than McDonalds before you think there's a problem. Or maybe you think no child should be helped to make it so they can contribute to society more than serving you a burger?

[skunk]

Will you please stop shouting!

[zimv20]

When will this insanity end?

when you turn off the bolding?

seriously, i can't even read your stuff, it looks so much like trolling.

[bousozoku]

I'm thinking that the child has a heredity-related problem. :rolleyes:


When will this insanity end?


When you stop ranting.

[Neserk]

Yes they can hold your child back without your consent. This is part of the new "no child left behind law" that if the child does not pass the FCAT on certain grades (in my son's case it's 8th grade) that they will be retained. The parent DOES NOT hold the right to refuse this.


That is NOT part of the national plan. I live in CA and I am a teacher. The parent MUST consent to have their child retained. This is specific to Florida.

They want FCAT to be representative of what a child has learned, but it isn't. There are children who are A students who fail the FCAT and are therefore held back from passing the year.


As a teacher I am all to well aware of the problems with Standardized testing and with the fact that they don't represent what student was taught or what they learned.



When will this insanity end?


I'd start homeschooling my child if I were in your shoes.


Fix the system, don't ignore it so that we have millions of drop outs and adults qualified for nothing better than McDonalds before you think there's a problem. Or maybe you think no child should be helped to make it so they can contribute to society more than serving you a burger?


Thankfully nothing in education lasts for longer than 5 years. Especially stupid things like the "No child left behind" act.

I would absolutely take my child out of public schools if I were you. Move to a different state if you can't afford private schools or homeschooling. The effects on his self esteem from being held back can be devastating. In the US children who are retained are more likely to drop out of school than those who are not. There is no known benefit for holding a child back, either.

[Neserk]

I'm thinking that the child has a heredity-related problem. :rolleyes:



When you stop ranting.

Even though this parent is very angry comments like these are not necessary. He has every rate to yell and scream. You all don't have to read the post. Everything he has said so far is true of the problems with the current Administration and its stranglehold on public education.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is that the retention is part of the no child left behind. That is a federal law so it would apply to all states and I kNOW it doesn't apply in CA. He was either lied to or it is specific to FL or both.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Im trying to think of one Bush program that wasnt a screw up, lets see no children left behind? nope, Clean air innitiative? Great if you want to pollute - nope, Patriot act? Great if you want to barge into the homes of law abiding americans but for anything else? nope Iraq and wmds? Nope Just face it this administration is nothing but lies and propaganda for the Police state Bush wants. Kick his behind out of office and undo everything that he and the goose stepping republicans have done the past 4 years is the solution. After years of supporting the Republicans i now despise everything they and their president stand for. No Child left behind is just another example of misdirection and a federal beaucracy that wants to control every aspect of our lives. want to make a difference? get registered and vote the draft dodger out :)

[skunk]

After years of supporting the Republicans i now despise everything they and their president stand for. No Child left behind is just another example of misdirection and a federal beaucracy that wants to control every aspect of our lives. want to make a difference? get registered and vote the draft dodger out :)
Wow! Izzat you? :D

[Voltron]

FCAT is set up to show the children have been taught what they are supposed to be taught. Problem is that teachers have always altered what is taught. If you remember, there were always some teachers you liked better just because they made the class interesting. However, now there is no time to do this if you want the children to pass. The only (ONLY) thing they will have time to teach is FCAT material, and nothing else. Not to mention constant testing on the material.

So what is the problem the purpose of the FCAT is to force teachers to teach kids certain things like they were suppose to be doing a long time ago. We are losing our technological advantage, the Japanese are winning. Not too long if we don't start forcing our schools to start actually teaching what our children need to know we will end up a third world country ourselves. Candelife your son, yes I know this person, has like 6 classes 5 of em crappy classes to make him a well rounded individual and one class that teaches everything that is suppose to be in the FCAT. That is not the way it is suppose to be. You should be having your math, your english, your writing, your logic. And then if you have time or effort left over maybe one or two other things that go towards making you son well rounded.

If you want to be well rounded do it on your own time. If you want to be educated go to school. It is time we forced these teachers to limit their teaching to what our students need to know to survive in the world and business marketplace and to quit wasting time on other crap that don't matter.

For your other arguments I heard elsewhere. The state doesn't really force the schools what classes to teach, nor which books to buy, nor the authors of what to write in those books. Those are controlled by your individual school boards. This FCAT is a means to force the school boards to start helping to force the schools to teach what they should of been teaching all along.

[Neserk]

So what is the problem the purpose of the FCAT is to force teachers to teach kids certain things like they were suppose to be doing a long time ago. We are losing our technological advantage, the Japanese are winning. Not too long if we don't start forcing our schools to start actually teaching what our children need to know we will end up a third world country ourselves.


None of this is true. Teaching is an art, as is Learning. Taking a standardized test is a combination of a skill (which can be learned) and a learning style. His child not passing the test (or anyone else's child) may or may not have to do with what the child learned. It would like me teaching you to swim and then sitting you down and giving you a written test and determining if you knew how to swim based *solely* on the written test.


Candelife your son, yes I know this person, has like 6 classes 5 of em crappy classes to make him a well rounded individual and one class that teaches everything that is suppose to be in the FCAT. That is not the way it is suppose to be. You should be having your math, your english, your writing, your logic. And then if you have time or effort left over maybe one or two other things that go towards making you son well rounded.


Again, this is *not* the issue. The whole purpose of No Child Left Behind, etc. is to "prove" that public education is "failing" so that parents can get vouchers to send their children to private, Christian schools (where the teachers don't even have to have credentials, etc.). It is a set up, folks.


If you want to be well rounded do it on your own time. If you want to be educated go to school. It is time we forced these teachers to limit their teaching to what our students need to know to survive in the world and business marketplace and to quit wasting time on other crap that don't matter.


You know not of what you speak.



For your other arguments I heard elsewhere. The state doesn't really force the schools what classes to teach, nor which books to buy, nor the authors of what to write in those books. Those are controlled by your individual school boards. This FCAT is a means to force the school boards to start helping to force the schools to teach what they should of been teaching all along.

oh? Was education in Florida *that* bad? I thought you were from California?

While I agree education needs a form of standardization (students need certain skills) I'm surprised a Republican would want the government to have so much control!

[skunk]

You should be having your math, your english, your writing, your logic. And then if you have time or effort left over maybe one or two other things that go towards making you son well rounded.

If you want to be well rounded do it on your own time. If you want to be educated go to school. It is time we forced these teachers to limit their teaching to what our students need to know to survive in the world and business marketplace and to quit wasting time on other crap that don't matter.

For your other arguments I heard elsewhere. The state doesn't really force the schools what classes to teach, nor which books to buy, nor the authors of what to write in those books. Those are controlled by your individual school boards. This FCAT is a means to force the school boards to start helping to force the schools to teach what they should of been teaching all along.
Lots of talk of "forcing" here. Sounds a bit fascistic to me. Why should teachers be "forced" to ignore the individual and teach the numbers? There is a great deal more to life than "what our students need to know to survive in the world and business marketplace". What a depressing view of education you have.

[Voltron]

Lots of talk of "forcing" here. Sounds a bit fascistic to me. Why should teachers be "forced" to ignore the individual and teach the numbers? There is a great deal more to life than "what our students need to know to survive in the world and business marketplace". What a depressing view of education you have.
None of which pays the rent, nor helps us compete in the world marketplace the things that really matter in todays world.

[Neserk]

None of which pays the rent, nor helps us compete in the world marketplace the things that really matter in todays world.

From what I've been reading you have to live outside the US to compete in the world. Just saw an article about people calling for info about Food stamps and their call going to India. How ironic is that?

[skunk]

None of which pays the rent, nor helps us compete in the world marketplace the things that really matter in todays world.
I'm sorry, but this mechanistic universe of yours does not appeal: the marketplace is not everything. What about art, philosophy, politics, poetry, history? A world without anything but vocational training would be barren indeed.

[davecuse]

None of which pays the rent, nor helps us compete in the world marketplace the things that really matter in todays world.

Exactly which portion of what the FCATs test for will help a student eventually compete in the world marketplace? If you force everyone to learn the exact same material isn't it obvious that no one would have a unique skillset. Following your logic we should just fire all teachers and have students sit in front of an automated program all day, without any regard for their individual interests.

Your education should be tailored to your interests, and your hobbies. By allowing for this type of school scenario students may take a different view of education, not seeing school as waste of time, but as something to be excited about. As things are now, kids are systematically taught that learning is not cool. I think a large part of this is due to the material that is crammed down their throats. I mean sure our history is important, but how important is memorizing a bunch of dates? What is that going to get me?

You want to really get education going, give some financial incentive to teachers. Teachers in this country get paid ****, I mean it's really pathetic. I forget if it was Chris Rock or Dennis Miller (one of those HBO stand up acts) who said it, but I agree that lawyers and teachers salaries should just be switched!

[bousozoku]

Even though this parent is very angry comments like these are not necessary. He has every rate to yell and scream. You all don't have to read the post. Everything he has said so far is true of the problems with the current Administration and its stranglehold on public education.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is that the retention is part of the no child left behind. That is a federal law so it would apply to all states and I kNOW it doesn't apply in CA. He was either lied to or it is specific to FL or both.

It simply looks ridiculous to write everything bolded. Actually, I was just wondering why someone would barely join (registered user?) these forums just to rant. In any case, I hear about the problems in Floriduh every day. They are unfortunate. I might even be sympathetic, if I didn't know so many students who are achievers. We have an F school in the Orlando area and it's been an F school for two or three years in a row. Imagine that the period in which you test has almost no one attending. That would certainly ruin your statistics.

Floriduh had very specific educational (Gov. Bush) goals before the current President Bush took office. These have little to do with No Child Left Behind. (Let's end our educational programme title with a preposition. :D) The FCAT and its impact on exiting a grade were part of the state's educational plan development. What's so amazing to me is that they recently applauded when the 3rd grade test results were returned and just over 50 percent of the students could read at grade level. That's quite an achievement. :eek:

[LethalWolfe]

None of which pays the rent, nor helps us compete in the world marketplace the things that really matter in todays world.


I agree.


Our schools need to focus more on cranking out unthinking automatons.
Art, culture, music, history? Who the hell needs that. Draw up a petition to bulldoze every concert hall, theater, museum, and art gallery and I'll be the first one to sign it. The world would be a much better place if we were all mindless, business machines. Who cares about a bunch of arid Third World countries thousands of miles away? What could they do that would ever effect the business world? And why should we foster creativity anyway? I mean, who the hell has ever been successful by thinking up something new and original? :rolleyes:

Getting students to memorize names, dates, and places is relatively easy and relatively useless. Teaching students to think, to figure out why those names, dates, and places are important (the chain of events leading up to them as well as their repercussions) is the hard, and useful, part.
Unfortunetly standardized tests test memorization and not critical thinking. I think all the weight placed on standardized testing is hurting education. Students are being taught how to do good on a standardized test. Which is great if all you plan on doing the rest of your life is take standardized tests. Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a life time.


But what do I know. I must be mad. I keep imagining paying the rent with money I obviously don't have (at least according to Voltron).


Lethal

[skunk]

But what do I know. I must be mad. I keep imagining paying the rent with money I obviously don't have (at least according to Voltron).
Lethal
Well, at least you have your imagination to keep you going! :rolleyes:

[Voltron]

I agree.


Our schools need to focus more on cranking out unthinking automatons.
Art, culture, music, history? Who the hell needs that.

They can do all that stuff on their own time or in extra classes over the above minimum basic requirements. At least that way they can learn to follow your own quote.

Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a life time.

and not have to sponge off the government living on wellfare.

[skunk]

and not have to sponge off the government living on wellfare.
It's the government which is sponging. Come back and say that again when the budget is anywhere within a million light-years of being balanced.

[janey]

I'm not sure what the FCAT is. In CA they take the CAT-6 and a State Standards test (don't recall the name). You can't pass or fail it. You are scored based on how you did compared to others.

OMG THE ****ING STAR TEST MUST DIE, and by the way its called the CSTs, the name you can't recall. You can't pass it or fail it, but it does make students who try hard really really discouraged and depressed, when they get a basic/below basic (not even proficient) on the standards testing, which is also a joke, they make us take a test covering all the standards a month before school ends, and we're supposed to have learnt everything in the standards in like 25-27 weeks, for a year round high school like us, thats pretty impossible.
I can't believe I wasted like 4 hours on 4 days doing stupid tests.
i didnt have a science class this year, and i had to take the bloody earth science test. the algebra 2 test tested us on a few things we DID NOT GET A CHANCE TO BLOODY LEARN YET (ie standard deviation). the english test was ************ because it was like the same bloody easy reading material practically given to us last year (but there was one poem that was absolutely beautiful: http://applegoddess.org/blog/archives/000100.html). the cat-6 math test is a joke, testing 9th graders on stuff usually taught in prealgebra.
i know were advanced, and as a result, we might consider it easy, but standardized testing is a waste of money, time and is a COMPLETE JOKE. Goddamn, someone do away with STAR and the SATs.

An example of how horrid the CAT-6 test is are two inane questions I vividly remember. One was from one of the English tests, where it gave you a rough draft of a report, and you had to answer like 5 questions based on the report. One question asked you how it should have been spaced. How are you bloody supposed to know if it is to be single spaced or double spaced?!?!?!
The other inane question was from the CAT-6 science portion, where it asked you what caused the largest number of auto accidents. answer choices included alcohol, car malfunctions, drugs. Yeesh, like we're supposed to learn that in science?!

[Neserk]

OMG THE ****ING STAR TEST MUST DIE, and by the way its called the CSTs, the name you can't recall. You can't pass it or fail it, but it does make students who try hard really really discouraged and depressed, when they get a basic/below basic (not even proficient) on the standards testing, which is also a joke, they make us take a test covering all the standards a month before school ends, and we're supposed to have learnt everything in the standards in like 25-27 weeks, for a year round high school like us, thats pretty impossible.
I can't believe I wasted like 4 hours on 4 days doing stupid tests.
i didnt have a science class this year, and i had to take the bloody earth science test. the algebra 2 test tested us on a few things we DID NOT GET A CHANCE TO BLOODY LEARN YET (ie standard deviation). the english test was ************ because it was like the same bloody easy reading material practically given to us last year (but there was one poem that was absolutely beautiful: http://applegoddess.org/blog/archives/000100.html). the cat-6 math test is a joke, testing 9th graders on stuff usually taught in prealgebra.
i know were advanced, and as a result, we might consider it easy, but standardized testing is a waste of money, time and is a COMPLETE JOKE. Goddamn, someone do away with STAR and the SATs.

An example of how horrid the CAT-6 test is are two inane questions I vividly remember. One was from one of the English tests, where it gave you a rough draft of a report, and you had to answer like 5 questions based on the report. One question asked you how it should have been spaced. How are you bloody supposed to know if it is to be single spaced or double spaced?!?!?!
The other inane question was from the CAT-6 science portion, where it asked you what caused the largest number of auto accidents. answer choices included alcohol, car malfunctions, drugs. Yeesh, like we're supposed to learn that in science?!

Thank you. CST. (California Standards Test). And thanks for the testimonial. Have you taking the test you need to pass in order to graduate from high school?

One elementary school I sub at took a WHOLE month from reguar education for the stupid star testing :rolleyes: What a waste of educational time.

Oh, did you see that one of the Claremont Undergraduate schools has done away with SAT scores for students who have a GPA of 3.5 or higher? I thought that was pretty cool. It is an experiment. Hopefully it will work and more and more schools will follow suit!

[Neserk]

It simply looks ridiculous to write everything bolded. Actually, I was just wondering why someone would barely join (registered user?) these forums just to rant.


That is easy. He is obviously upset (and rightfully so) and needed a place to vent. Where better than the internet?


In any case, I hear about the problems in Floriduh every day. They are unfortunate. I might even be sympathetic, if I didn't know so many students who are achievers. We have an F school in the Orlando area and it's been an F school for two or three years in a row. Imagine that the period in which you test has almost no one attending. That would certainly ruin your statistics


Another options parents have is to refuse to let their child be tested. I think if parents were properly educated on the lack of benefit this testing has they would sign the papers. Hell, most parents don't know that *is* an option. I think they should have to sign papers *giving permission* for their children to take the test.



Floriduh had very specific educational (Gov. Bush) goals before the current President Bush took office. These have little to do with No Child Left Behind. (Let's end our educational programme title with a preposition. :D) The FCAT and its impact on exiting a grade were part of the state's educational plan development. What's so amazing to me is that they recently applauded when the 3rd grade test results were returned and just over 50 percent of the students could read at grade level. That's quite an achievement. :eek:

So did 50% of the 3rd graders get retained :eek:

[Neserk]

Getting students to memorize names, dates, and places is relatively easy and relatively useless. Teaching students to think, to figure out why those names, dates, and places are important (the chain of events leading up to them as well as their repercussions) is the hard, and useful, part.
Lethal


This is what I was talking about when I said teaching is an art and so is learning. It is about what students can regurgitate. It is how their cognition develops. Can they only recite information or can they sythesize, analyze, etc. Can they think outside of the box? Standardized test are bad for that.

[bousozoku]

That is easy. He is obviously upset (and rightfully so) and needed a place to vent. Where better than the internet?

Another options parents have is to refuse to let their child be tested. I think if parents were properly educated on the lack of benefit this testing has they would sign the papers. Hell, most parents don't know that *is* an option. I think they should have to sign papers *giving permission* for their children to take the test.

So did 50% of the 3rd graders get retained :eek:

They won't be retained. We have really low standards in Floriduh so most will work around it.

I don't believe that there is a state option to not be tested; however, it's unlikely that they would be aware of it anyway. Now, I'm ranting. :D

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by bousozoku
It simply looks ridiculous to write everything bolded. Actually, I was just wondering why someone would barely join (registered user?) these forums just to rant.


That is easy. He is obviously upset (and rightfully so) and needed a place to vent. Where better than the internet?

First off he is a she.
Second off she is my sister and if you look at her registration date it is almost the same date as Slyhunters. She is an administrator of another forum and felt little need to post in this one. http://www.techvana.com/forums/index.php and this specific topic cross posted http://www.techvana.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=398
Third off this argument happens to be a running argument between ourselves. Why she picked now to post here I don't know.
And about the bold, I don't understand it either but I think she thinks the characters look prettier and that is why she posts everything in every forum she posts in, in bold. I warned her that some places wouldn't like that much but I was proved wrong on that argument up till now.

[screener]

First off he is a she.
Second off she is my sister and if you look at her registration date it is almost the same date as Slyhunters. She is an administrator of another forum and felt little need to post in this one. http://www.techvana.com/forums/index.php and this specific topic cross posted http://www.techvana.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=398
Third off this argument happens to be a running argument between ourselves. Why she picked now to post here I don't know.
And about the bold, I don't understand it either but I think she thinks the characters look prettier and that is why she posts everything in every forum she posts in, in bold. I warned her that some places wouldn't like that much but I was proved wrong on that argument up till now.

"I'm actually seeking out forums that are political and also the educational ones and posting.....It seems if a person is not a parent, they think of this FCAT as a simple test that if the child can't pass it that he should be failed. They can't remember what it was like when they took it? Then there are the ones who are glad for another opportunity to bash the president.....there are some good responses though, and people who have visited the site to see if there's anything they can do. The more people who are aware the better, before too many kids are "left behind"."

Now you know why she's posting here and elsewhere.
I think your'e wrong on this one Voltron, not that it's important but what are her views on Bush?

[janey]

Thank you. CST. (California Standards Test). And thanks for the testimonial. Have you taking the test you need to pass in order to graduate from high school?

One elementary school I sub at took a WHOLE month from reguar education for the stupid star testing :rolleyes: What a waste of educational time.

Oh, did you see that one of the Claremont Undergraduate schools has done away with SAT scores for students who have a GPA of 3.5 or higher? I thought that was pretty cool. It is an experiment. Hopefully it will work and more and more schools will follow suit!
The High School Exit Exam is taken in 10th grade. I've heard from some of my friends that it was pretty easy but very time consuming. Can't wait to take it :rolleyes: . Why we have to take an HS exit exam in 10th grade is beyond me.
One month is insane...in comparison we spent 10 minutes during SSRT for two weeks to review.
The SAT thing is awesome :) Wish all colleges did that, because then people would stop obsessing over every little miniscule detail and I wouldn't have to worry about scoring badly on the SAT, old or new :p
btw...screener, what's with your stats? I see a post of yours, but you're just a registered member with 0 posts...

[zimv20]

btw...screener, what's with your stats? I see a post of yours, but you're just a registered member with 0 posts...
posts in this forum don't count towards the total

[Neserk]

They won't be retained. We have really low standards in Floriduh so most will work around it.

I don't believe that there is a state option to not be tested; however, it's unlikely that they would be aware of it anyway. Now, I'm ranting. :D


:eek: Florida appears to have removed pretty much all parental rights. Scary.

[Neserk]

First off he is a she.


Wow, another female posting here? I don't know if I can let that happen :p


Second off she is my sister and if you look at her registration date it is almost the same date as Slyhunters. She is an administrator of another forum and felt little need to post in this one. [url]


Tattle tale!


Third off this argument happens to be a running argument between ourselves. Why she picked now to post here I don't know.


Well, your sister is very wise.


And about the bold, I don't understand it either but I think she thinks the characters look prettier and that is why she posts everything in every forum she posts in, in bold. I warned her that some places wouldn't like that much but I was proved wrong on that argument up till now.

Brothers :rolleyes: What are you going to do with them?

Personally, I think you are all make a huge issue out of the bold. I read it just fine. And screaming is done WITH ALL CAPS. Not with bold.

[Neserk]

The High School Exit Exam is taken in 10th grade. I've heard from some of my friends that it was pretty easy but very time consuming. Can't wait to take it :rolleyes: . Why we have to take an HS exit exam in 10th grade is beyond me.


Because that way you can take it multiple times. IMO if you have to pass the exam to graduate you shouldn't have to go to school after you pass it :D



The SAT thing is awesome :) Wish all colleges did that, because then people would stop obsessing over every little miniscule detail and I wouldn't have to worry about scoring badly on the SAT, old or new :p


Colleges are generally at the forefront of change. More and more will drop the requirement. My college decided (with the encouragement and educated information of one of the psych professors) to give very little weight to the SATs. The professor explained/showed them how the SATs are culturally biased and of limited value even for those they are not bias against. They only predict your first semester in college (most people's worst) which doesn't predict much of anything.

You already have many graduate programs who don't really bother with GRE scores (which are actually more predictive than SAT scores) because they see the limit to their value. Eventually the excessive Standardized testing will disappear with Assertive Discpline (introduced when I was in Middle school).

[Voltron]

"I'm actually seeking out forums that are political and also the educational ones and posting.....It seems if a person is not a parent, they think of this FCAT as a simple test that if the child can't pass it that he should be failed. They can't remember what it was like when they took it? Then there are the ones who are glad for another opportunity to bash the president.....there are some good responses though, and people who have visited the site to see if there's anything they can do. The more people who are aware the better, before too many kids are "left behind"."

Now you know why she's posting here and elsewhere.
I think your'e wrong on this one Voltron, not that it's important but what are her views on Bush?
I'm single and think all education should be self passed with a test for each grade level. That when a student passes the test irregardless to their age they pass on to the next level. That if a student fails the test irregardless to their age they stay at the current level.
My sister is a parent and doesn't care about reality she cares about emotion. She hates it that her sons feelings are hurt when he fails. She wants her son to feel good about himself. I want him to be able to provide a living for himself someday.

She flip flops on Bush she doesn't like Kerry or Bush.

[Krizoitz]

I should point out that Japan is having a very tough time with their system of standarized tests. The schools focus so much on teaching to the tests which are mostly about rote memorization that they are finding that creativity is not being encouraged and they have to look outside of Japan.

The problem is the testing system is so engrained in their culture, economy and educational system that they really have no way of getting rid of it

[Neserk]

I'm single and think all education should be self passed with a test for each grade level. That when a student passes the test irregardless to their age they pass on to the next level. That if a student fails the test irregardless to their age they stay at the current level.


I'm a teacher. I have a similar theory. Children shouldn't be graded per se. The teacher should mark that they have mastered an area or they are working on mastering an area or just beginning to learn about an area. There are multiple ways of testing children to determine rather or not they have mastered an area. Paper and pencil tests are just one of them. When a child masters one area they go on to the next area. Of course my idea requires a complete overhauling of the educational system.


My sister is a parent and doesn't care about reality she cares about emotion. She hates it that her sons feelings are hurt when he fails. She wants her son to feel good about himself. I want him to be able to provide a living for himself someday.



Passing or not passing the FCAT has no correlation to rather or not he will be able to provide for himself (and possibly a family) one day. Except in this way: children who are held back are more likely to drop out. You've already seen this with him. He dropped out emotionally -- "why bother?" was how he (understandably) felt. Holding him back because of the FCAT is more likely to prevent him from being able to provide a decent living for himself than if they screwed the test (which means nothing) and moved him on. That, my friend, is reality. Further, human beings are emotional creatures. She is rightlfully concerned about his emotions. They can mean all the difference to his future. You don't divorce emotion from reality. It is part of reality.

[Voltron]

I'm a teacher. I have a similar theory. Children shouldn't be graded per se. The teacher should mark that they have mastered an area or they are working on mastering an area or just beginning to learn about an area. There are multiple ways of testing children to determine rather or not they have mastered an area. Paper and pencil tests are just one of them. When a child masters one area they go on to the next area. Of course my idea requires a complete overhauling of the educational system.


Problem with this is it requires that we trust the teachers. The problem is that the teachers give students better grades than they deserve. How do we prove the teacher is doing their job without testing the student outside of the observation and monitoring of the instructor.

[Neserk]

Problem with this is it requires that we trust the teachers. The problem is that the teachers give students better grades than they deserve. How do we prove the teacher is doing their job without testing the student outside of the observation and monitoring of the instructor.

What did your teachers do to you? You are awfully cynical. I didn't say anything about grading. In fact I'm in favor of doing away with it. AS I've told you repeatedly. Standardized testing does not measure what a child knows. It only measures how well they performed on that test.

[LethalWolfe]

Passing or not passing the FCAT has no correlation to rather or not he will be able to provide for himself (and possibly a family) one day.


I think what Voltron meant was that in today's "I'm okay, you're okay"/"everyone's a winner" environment we are rewarding kids for loseing just so they don't "feel bad." I'm sure you've read/heard of some schools banning various forms of competition because they fear the psychological damage that might been done to the kids who don't win. I mean, everyone has to be a winner right? :rolleyes:
There seems to be a mindset of, "If every child can't be equally good at everything then we'll make them all equally bad." Instead of pushing children to be the best they can be, including overcoming adversity, they are being dragged down the level of the lowest performer.

If kids are raised in a hyper-overprotective educational system like this they will have serious issues when they get into the real world and aren't reward for being inadequate.
/rant


Lethal

[Neserk]

I think what Voltron meant was that in today's "I'm okay, you're okay"/"everyone's a winner" environment we are rewarding kids for loseing just so they don't "feel bad." I'm sure you've read/heard of some schools banning various forms of competition because they fear the psychological damage that might been done to the kids who don't win. I mean, everyone has to be a winner right? :rolleyes:
There seems to be a mindset of, "If every child can't be equally good at everything then we'll make them all equally bad." Instead of pushing children to be the best they can be, including overcoming adversity, they are being dragged down the level of the lowest performer.

If kids are raised in a hyper-overprotective educational system like this they will have serious issues when they get into the real world and aren't reward for being inadequate.
/rant


Lethal

Hyperoverprotective educational system? You are kidding right? Quite the opposite, actually. The most common saying is "high expectations" regardless of the psychological cost.

[Apmonia]

The problem here is that the states are not testing the right people. They should be testing the teachers, not the students. Instead of testing the students and forcing them into staying behind a grade level, force the teachers into taking tests every year to ensure they are still on top of their game. Throughout my time in college (which is still in progress) I have encountered wonderful professors that still challenge the students and other professors that were going through the motions. Since colleges demand more of the professors, like publishing so many times a year and the like, I feel that the least that can be expected of teachers on the high school level can be to pass a test on their competence, not on the children's.

Apmonia

[Neserk]

The problem here is that the states are not testing the right people. They should be testing the teachers, not the students.


*Sigh* they do test the teachers. And the same applies for them as for the students. Standardized tests are only accurate for 1 kind of learning style. For everyone else they show nothing.


Instead of testing the students and forcing them into staying behind a grade level, force the teachers into taking tests every year to ensure they are still on top of their game.


THat makes no more sense than testing students every year. No one should teach from memory. Before I did a 3 week unit on the Solar system I did as much research as I could to gain as much information as I could about what I needed the 5th graders to learn, and then some. That is how teaching is done. Not on a sheet of paper with little circles to color in.


Throughout my time in college (which is still in progress) I have encountered wonderful professors that still challenge the students and other professors that were going through the motions. Since colleges demand more of the professors, like publishing so many times a year and the like, I feel that the least that can be expected of teachers on the high school level can be to pass a test on their competence, not on the children's.


That is BS. I had a professor in grad school who was well published. He couldn't teach to save his life. He was a genius (literally) what I read of what he published was incredible. But his teaching sucked. Publishing and being able Teach are not the same thing.


And teachers do pass a level of competence. To be a single subject teacher you must have a major in that subject area (college level --stuff you'd never teach your students) or pass a test showing you have sufficient information on the subject area. Single Subject Credentials take the Praxis tests.

[janey]

Problem with this is it requires that we trust the teachers. The problem is that the teachers give students better grades than they deserve. How do we prove the teacher is doing their job without testing the student outside of the observation and monitoring of the instructor.
LMAO TEACHERS GIVE STUDENTS BETTER GRADES THAN THEY DESERVE>!?!?
You're joking right?
Because at my school, the teachers either give the grades we deserve (which I highly prefer) or they just give us grades based on favouritism or just based on their mood. I swear to god, the only things I know how to say in Spanish and French are like me gusta whatever and je m'appelle jane. So why do i have an A in the class?! Some people who actually learned a great deal of Spanish or French are the ones with Bs and Cs. My english teacher is similar, she gives grades based on gender. I mean what kind of learning environment is this, where teachers give grades so haphazardly?!

[screener]

posts in this forum don't count towards the total

? Total, what total. Do I win something when I reach a certain number?
What do you mean posts in this forum don't count. Why not?, isn't this stuff
important? Geez, now I feel like such a loser.

[Krizoitz]

Throughout my time in college (which is still in progress) I have encountered wonderful professors that still challenge the students and other professors that were going through the motions. Since colleges demand more of the professors, like publishing so many times a year and the like, I feel that the least that can be expected of teachers on the high school level can be to pass a test on their competence, not on the children's.

Actually proffesors have even LESS requirements. It doesn't take any teaching training or credentials to become a professor at a University, especially at research Universities where you are hired for your research and intelligence not your ability to teach.

Second tenure makes it next to impossible to fire a professor, and while they can remove them from teaching that means putting someone else there, and you only have so many profs you can hire.

[zimv20]

Do I win something when I reach a certain number?

you would be eligible for valuable prizes. (employees of Macrumors.com (tm) and residents of the states of Iowa, Montana and California not eligible for such prizes).

enter as often as you like. void where prohibited. shareholders and employees of Marcumors.com Inc., its subsidiaries and parent company GlobeTech Inc. are not liable for any damages, loss of productivity, accident or injury sustained while enjoying, attempting to obtain, unpacking, photographing, touching or looking at valuable prizes.

[blackfox]

? Total, what total. Do I win something when I reach a certain number?
What do you mean posts in this forum don't count. Why not?, isn't this stuff
important? Geez, now I feel like such a loser.
Post total...as you move up in posts, you become a "member"(25 posts), a "regular"(100 posts) and at 500 you become a mac processor begining with 6502, and ending with...well depends on the post count...also, most importantly, you receive the ability to have an avatar(pretty little picture of your choice) next to your name. Très sophistiqué...I believe the posts in this forum don't count because we tend to argue and post alot, but considering that the community discussion posts do count, I am puzzled at the logic...anyway, who cares that much, it is about the quality of the posts, not pretty pictures (although I would love one)...so you are doing fine.
(my numbers might be off for post counts, I was too lazy to look it up...)

[screener]

you would be eligible for valuable prizes. (employees of Macrumors.com (tm) and residents of the states of Iowa, Montana and California not eligible for such prizes).

enter as often as you like. void where prohibited. shareholders and employees of Marcumors.com Inc., its subsidiaries and parent company GlobeTech Inc. are not liable for any damages, loss of productivity, accident or injury sustained while enjoying, attempting to obtain, unpacking, photographing, touching or looking at valuable prizes.

I'm sold, where do I sign up to start racking up those nubers, nubers?
Damn keyboard, numbers.

[Voltron]

What did your teachers do to you? You are awfully cynical. I didn't say anything about grading. In fact I'm in favor of doing away with it. AS I've told you repeatedly. Standardized testing does not measure what a child knows. It only measures how well they performed on that test.
Well they also need to be good at taking tests.
It is a measure of how much you know and thus you should be good at taking test in order to prove to others that you know what you know.

Apply for a job at a bank they give you standardized test you must pass or you don't get hired.

[Voltron]

LMAO TEACHERS GIVE STUDENTS BETTER GRADES THAN THEY DESERVE>!?!?
You're joking right?
Because at my school, the teachers either give the grades we deserve (which I highly prefer) or they just give us grades based on favouritism or just based on their mood. I swear to god, the only things I know how to say in Spanish and French are like me gusta whatever and je m'appelle jane. So why do i have an A in the class?! Some people who actually learned a great deal of Spanish or French are the ones with Bs and Cs. My english teacher is similar, she gives grades based on gender. I mean what kind of learning environment is this, where teachers give grades so haphazardly?!
Exactly why we need standardized testing.

[skunk]

Well they also need to be good at taking tests.
It is a measure of how much you know and thus you should be good at taking test in order to prove to others that you know what you know.

Apply for a job at a bank they give you standardized test you must pass or you don't get hired.
That's true, but it's not the whole story, is it? You also get interviewed, which is where an ability to think clearly and express yourself is needed. Education should not be just about cramming in facts.

[janey]

Exactly why we need standardized testing.
uh no, standardized testing isnt the answer, higher education is :P
standardized testing is a real waste of time, money.
it merely measures how well you can take tests, that is it.

[LethalWolfe]

Hyperoverprotective educational system? You are kidding right? Quite the opposite, actually. The most common saying is "high expectations" regardless of the psychological cost.


Maybe the stuff I read about every now and then is the exception and not the norm. Which would make sense. It's not news worthy of it's normal.


Lethal

[CandelLife]

That is NOT part of the national plan. I live in CA and I am a teacher. The parent MUST consent to have their child retained. This is specific to Florida.

As a teacher I am all to well aware of the problems with Standardized testing and with the fact that they don't represent what student was taught or what they learned.

I'd start homeschooling my child if I were in your shoes.

Thankfully nothing in education lasts for longer than 5 years. Especially stupid things like the "No child left behind" act.

I would absolutely take my child out of public schools if I were you. Move to a different state if you can't afford private schools or homeschooling. The effects on his self esteem from being held back can be devastating. In the US children who are retained are more likely to drop out of school than those who are not. There is no known benefit for holding a child back, either.



I'm answering this one before going back to read all I have missed here. But I have to say #1.) I am used to using bold, and no one in three years has ever called it yelling, that's WHAT ALL CAPS ARE FOR. But ok, if that's how it is here fine, I hope the child saying my son got his problems from me due to my post decides to grow up soon....that said.......back to the adults...

This issue becoming forefront with me has brought to light a very important thing I had never been told, that they had to have my permission. I thought it was only that way in Kindergarten and didn't realize it was that way they whole way through the public school years. But when it comes to FCAT we are being told straight out that if the child fails the FCAT they are held back, period, no parent discussion. I plan on calling the school to find out, and beyond that if need be to get a straight answer. I appreciate finding that out.

I just want to say that right now the teachers are up in arms, the parents are joining in and others are learning what it's all about. This isn't just about me or my son. I mentioned my case only because I thought it would show that I am affected by this. I probably shouldn't have made it personal so the point would be more clear.

There's a few saying it should be the way it is only because they don't realize what we're losing here it seems. I'm sure as time goes by you will see this on the news more and more. It's not something we can just sweep under the carpet. It's not a small issue, it's not a small group of people.

I don't know what moves they'll make to correct this, but right now the text books do not match the tests and the teachers are having to supplement the material theirselves to try their best to do this. That includes all the tests and handouts they use as well. This is one of the problems. With less funding, large class sizes and no time.....they have to pull this off. In the meantime, the child has to be fast enough to keep up....

...or be left behind....

That's what the No Child will be left behind law has done....
in it's current state....


So what will fix it?

[CandelLife]

Wow, another female posting here? I don't know if I can let that happen :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltron
First off he is a she.
Brothers What are you going to do with them?
Personally, I think you are all make a huge issue out of the bold. I read it just fine. And screaming is done WITH ALL CAPS. Not with bold.
Quote:
Second off she is my sister and if you look at her registration date it is almost the same date as Slyhunters. She is an administrator of another forum and felt little need to post in this one.
Tattle tale!
Quote:
Third off this argument happens to be a running argument between ourselves. Why she picked now to post here I don't know.
Well, your sister is very wise.
Quote:
And about the bold, I don't understand it either but I think she thinks the characters look prettier and that is why she posts everything in every forum she posts in, in bold. I warned her that some places wouldn't like that much but I was proved wrong on that argument up till now.
Brothers :rolleyes: What are you going to do with them?
Personally, I think you are all make a huge issue out of the bold. I read it just fine. And screaming is done WITH ALL CAPS. Not with bold.

Ok....LOL Neserk is cool in my book...and ahem Voltron we'll talk later bud....yes I'm female...a mom...I didn't say that? ..................Still reading.....

[Voltron]

I don't know what moves they'll make to correct this, but right now the text books do not match the tests and the teachers are having to supplement the material theirselves to try their best to do this. That includes all the tests and handouts they use as well. This is one of the problems. With less funding, large class sizes and no time.....they have to pull this off. In the meantime, the child has to be fast enough to keep up....

...or be left behind....

That's what the No Child will be left behind law has done....
in it's current state....


So what will fix it?
That is the school boards fault that the books don't match the tests not the states. It is the school board that chose the wrong books to buy.

[mactastic]

I think what Voltron meant was that in today's "I'm okay, you're okay"/"everyone's a winner" environment we are rewarding kids for loseing just so they don't "feel bad." I'm sure you've read/heard of some schools banning various forms of competition because they fear the psychological damage that might been done to the kids who don't win. I mean, everyone has to be a winner right? :rolleyes:
There seems to be a mindset of, "If every child can't be equally good at everything then we'll make them all equally bad." Instead of pushing children to be the best they can be, including overcoming adversity, they are being dragged down the level of the lowest performer.

If kids are raised in a hyper-overprotective educational system like this they will have serious issues when they get into the real world and aren't reward for being inadequate.
/rant


Lethal

Now this sounds like you actually think some children SHOULD be left behind! Oh heresy.

[Voltron]

Now this sounds like you actually think some children SHOULD be left behind! Oh heresy.
Someone has to cook the hamburgers.

[mactastic]

Someone has to cook the hamburgers.

Don't tell me you're breaking with Republican orthodoxy too! But we CAN'T leave any children behind. That's what those liberals want with their education plan!

At least it seems we agree that NCLB is a bunch of bunk and needs to be revamped. You can't hold back the top half of the class just because you don't want to leave behind those that want to be left there. If they want to catch up later, well that's what community colleges are for.

[Voltron]

Don't tell me you're breaking with Republican orthodoxy too! But we CAN'T leave any children behind. That's what those liberals want with their education plan!

At least it seems we agree that NCLB is a bunch of bunk and needs to be revamped. You can't hold back the top half of the class just because you don't want to leave behind those that want to be left there. If they want to catch up later, well that's what community colleges are for.
I'm not a Republican.
I'm more of a John Locke Liberal, now days called a Libertarian since the Democrats has screwed up the meaning of the word liberal.

Try to differentiate a liberal froma socialist now days the look too alike to me.

[mactastic]

I'm not a Republican.
I'm more of a John Locke Liberal, now days called a Libertarian since the Democrats has screwed up the meaning of the word liberal.

Try to differentiate a liberal froma socialist now days the look too alike to me.

I'm far from a socialist if that's what you're implying. And I'm sure all <insert minority> look alike to you too huh?

[Voltron]

I'm far from a socialist if that's what you're implying. And I'm sure all <insert minority> look alike to you too huh?
Why would you insert such a prejudicial statement into this conversation I don't recall bringing up anything that would lead to that opinion.

[skunk]

I'm far from a socialist if that's what you're implying. And I'm sure all <insert minority> look alike to you too huh?
Easy, Tiger :rolleyes:

[mactastic]

Why would you insert such a prejudicial statement into this conversation I don't recall bringing up anything that would lead to that opinion.

From here...
Try to differentiate a liberal froma socialist now days the look too [sic] alike to me.

What's the difference? They are both equally insulting.

[Voltron]

From here...


What's the difference? They are both equally insulting.
The Democrat party who claims to be the liberal party seems to be pure breed socialists to me and not following the doctorines of John Locke who first created the theology of liberalism back during the early 1700's.

You know that little social contract between the government and the people wheras for the people the government would protect them from each other as well as from those abroad while regulating international trade and keeping their authority away from all other matters to be left to the people to decide for themselves.

[mactastic]

The Democrat party who claims to be the liberal party seems to be pure breed socialists to me and not following the doctorines of John Locke who first created the theology of liberalism back during the early 1700's.

Then you aren't looking closely enough for differences.

[Voltron]

Then you aren't looking closely enough for differences.
Social Security.
Stealing from those who earn money and giving to those who leach.
Stealing from the well off and giving the poor free medial care.

Lots of socialised crapola these democrats who are suppose to be liberal seems to be practicing.

FYI I edited the post 2 above right after you posted the one above this one not knowing you posted the one above this one yet.

[mactastic]

Oh so any aid to the public from government means socialism?

And how would you be if I was positing that there was no difference between conservatism and facisism?

[screener]

Social Security.
Stealing from those who earn money and giving to those who leach.
Stealing from the well off and giving the poor free medial care.

Lots of socialised crapola these democrats who are suppose to be liberal seems to be practicing.

FYI I edited the post 2 above right after you posted the one above this one not knowing you posted the one above this one yet.

Social Security is stealing from the rich?
Being from Canada, the government takes money from everyones paycheck
and when you retire you get a pension. Canada Pension is stable and Old Age Security depends on the amount of other pensions, private or abroad.
How is it leaching? It's a tax everyone pays unless you are self employed,
then it's optional. It would work fine if the guys we elect would keep their hands off of the fund that was there.

Stealing from the well off to give the poor free medical care?
From another thread here you saw what the costs are,I'm shocked at what you are expected to pay with no guarantee that should you get sick your HMO doesn't have to pay for treatment. Man, I'll stick with our bankrupt system any day. When I get sick and die, the family won't get stuck with huge medical bills and no reason to hasten my death along.
I read a while ago in Florida there were to many eligible kids waiting for free health care so the Florida Bush made them ineligible, now the waiting list is much smaller. Now there's a plan, hide the problem, no problem.

[Neserk]

Well they also need to be good at taking tests.
It is a measure of how much you know and thus you should be good at taking test in order to prove to others that you know what you know.

Apply for a job at a bank they give you standardized test you must pass or you don't get hired.


There is very little you can do to make some one good at taking tests. It is the equavilent of making someone who has a bad voice and is tone deaf a good singer.

People who work at the bank are most likely going to be analytical learners which means they are going to be good at taking standardized tests which means they won't have a problem ;)

[Neserk]

This issue becoming forefront with me has brought to light a very important thing I had never been told, that they had to have my permission. I thought it was only that way in Kindergarten and didn't realize it was that way they whole way through the public school years. But when it comes to FCAT we are being told straight out that if the child fails the FCAT they are held back, period, no parent discussion. I plan on calling the school to find out, and beyond that if need be to get a straight answer. I appreciate finding that out.


Administrators lie and hold back the truth. YOu'll have to check your state laws. I know in CA you have to have the parent's permission to hold a child back. But I also know they don't tell the parents that they have the right to refuse to have their child tested.



I just want to say that right now the teachers are up in arms,


We hate it. It is a stupid law made by stupid people who are more interested in their own pocketbooks than in children.


So what will fix it?

Getting rid of Bush :D And/Or repealing the law. If I were a parent I would be suing the state.

[CandelLife]

Administrators lie and hold back the truth. YOu'll have to check your state laws. I know in CA you have to have the parent's permission to hold a child back. But I also know they don't tell the parents that they have the right to refuse to have their child tested.

We hate it. It is a stupid law made by stupid people who are more interested in their own pocketbooks than in children.

Getting rid of Bush :D And/Or repealing the law. If I were a parent I would be suing the state.

I plan on checking this right now, I've been out all day so I couldn't call like I wanted to. I think I'll follow your advise and check Florida state law regarding this before I call them. If so, he needs passed on for the upcoming year.
Thank you...


BTW.... for all of you who think we need to break down harder on the school system....you might want to take a bleak look into the future of where that plan would lead........


Japanese elementary and secondary students go to school for 240 days a year, including Saturday mornings. There is no ability grouping or tracking through the ninth grade. The emphasis on equal treatment changes dramatically after the high school entrance exam. The top two-thirds of the ninth grade graduates are admitted, according to their test scores, to public and private academic high schools. Junior high graduates from the bottom third of their class either go to vocational high schools or, in a small number of cases, directly to work.

All Japanese students study the same carefully sequenced subjects, leaving little time for electives or teacher creativity. The subject matter must be covered thoroughly if students are going to be ready for the difficult school entrance tests. Students spend a quarter of their class time studying the Japanese language, which includes three separate writing systems. They devote another quarter of their time to concentrating on math and science.

The textbook, teacher lecture, and student memorization dominate classroom instruction in academic high schools. There is little time for class discussions or innovative teaching methods. Instead, students focus on mastering the factual information that they will have to know for the university entrance exams. This includes basic knowledge of a foreign language, usually English.

Most Japanese teenagers going to academic high schools do not date, drive cars, or hold part-time jobs. Pressured by parents and the approaching university exams, they usually spend their time after school studying. When test time arrives during February and March of their senior year, high schoolers become consumed with exam preparation. They even have a saying: "Sleep four hours, pass; sleep five hours, fail."

Despite the obvious successes of the Japanese school system, there are criticisms. Parents and teachers complain that too much pressure is put on Japanese children and teenagers. Also, the emphasis on memorizing masses of often meaningless facts prevents Japanese youngsters from developing their creative talents, learning to think on their own, or expressing themselves.

Ironically, after all the effort focusing on school and test preparation, only about a third of all Japanese high school graduates actually end up going to college (contrasted with 60 percent in the United States). Of even greater concern is what happens once a young person reaches the university level. Others voice concern about the overly rigid discipline of the Japanese system. Detailed rules—formal and informal—govern every aspect of school life including dress, hair style, behavior, and even outside activities. The rules and standards are often enforced by teachers humiliating and brow beating students. Corporal punishment is also widespread.

Traditionalists defend these practices as a necessary part of schooling. Critics worry that the system brutalizes students into stagnant conformity. Of even greater concern is what happens once a young person reaches the university level. Tests are few, term papers are rare, and hardly anyone flunks. Most students view college as a time of leisure and for catching up on dating and other youthful activities they missed while struggling to get into a university. After all, it is the university diploma itself, not what a student learned, that is the ticket to success in Japan. As a result, university education is often noted as the weak link in the whole system.

In 1984, a major Japanese newspaper opinion poll revealed that over 80 percent of the people wanted significant changes or the outright abolition of the school entrance-exam system. Although the government has been slow to respond, education reforms are beginning to take place. Until they are in place, most parents still continue to push their children in school and send them to juku. To do otherwise, they say, would jeopardize their children's future.

As a result of such criticism, a movement calling for the reform of the Japanese school system has gained great momentum in Japan. As early as 1960, the Central Council for Education in Japan called for the creation of a school system promoting greater diversity and independent thinking. Since then, the Japanese school system has been under constant attack for its emphasis on standardization, conformity, and testing. Some have argued that the rigidity of the system explains the fact that the Japanese drop-out rate increased during the 1970s and 1980s.

In the mid-1980s, Prime Minister Nakasone created the National Council on Educational Reform in order to address some of these criticisms. The council conducted several studies and supported a policy nurturing creativity, decentralization, and moral education in schools. The council reasoned that the increasing complexity of the economic and technological fields will require workers to possess greater flexibility, responsiveness, and creativity in the future.

While these reforms are yet to be enacted, the pendulum is swinging toward more freedom and flexibility in Japanese education. At the same time, the U.S. educational system, which has historically comprised a greater degree of freedom and flexibility than the Japanese system, is responding to criticisms calling for more standardized curriculum and testing.

http://www.crf-usa.org/bria/bria8_2.htm#japan


:(
Is this what we want for our future?

[CandelLife]

"Participating in the testing program is mandatory for all students attending public school," states part of the statutes. However, there are no real consequences of not participating, except in two instances.

Tenth-graders must pass FCAT before they graduate if they want a standard diploma. They get several chances to pass.

This year's 12th-graders who failed FCAT when they were 10th-graders two years ago are the first group required to pass the FCAT graduation test.

Also, if a third-grader doesn't pass FCAT -- or doesn't take it in the first place -- he has a couple other options for demonstrating his reading ability and moving on to fourth grade.

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/02/23/TampaBay/Board_member__No_FCAT.shtml




From the Florida Board of Education:

Florida’s existing graduation test, the High School Competency Test (HSCT), is being phased out. Students graduating in the 2002-03 school year, and thereafter, are required to pass the FCAT.
The elected officials at both state and local levels have the responsibility of establishing performance standards for students. The courts have upheld the right of states and districts to establish such standards. Florida was the first state to implement a requirement that students pass a state competency test to receive a high school diploma.


6. Students must “pass” the FCAT in each grade level to be promoted to the next grade.
Truth: Student promotion requirements are established by each local school board, not by the State. The Governor, Florida Legislature, and Commissioner and Secretary of Education are concerned that students not be “socially promoted” when essential skills have not been learned. However, the FCAT statutes mention the issue of “passing” in only two situations. First, students must pass the Grade 10 test to qualify for a regular high school diploma. Second, students in Grade 3 who have not demonstrated sufficient reading skills must be provided additional instruction before being promoted to Grade 4.



I still need to find where I can use the specific law to refuse to have them take it except for grades 10 and 12, or at least that they cannot be held back due to it.

[bousozoku]

...
Getting rid of Bush :D And/Or repealing the law. If I were a parent I would be suing the state.


Yes, it's certainly a good idea to place the blame elsewhere. It's certainly not the responsibility of the student, the parents, or the instructors at all. That would be the correct way to handle things. It would a terrible thing to diagnose the student's individual problem and take care of it properly. That might lead to a lifetime of success.


Yes, I know that standardised testing isn't a great way to evaluate anyone but until someone has a better solution, it's here to stay. Unfortunately, even after Gov. Bush is gone, it's unlikely that the law will change much so the FCAT will be just as troublesome as it is now.

[blackfox]

I have so far remained out of this debate, as I am barely in school (chipping away at a Grad. Degree), and have no children...but I will make a brief comment...With regards to the above post, I wonder how this reconciles with what seems in many ways (imo) to be a very creative youth culture...another societal influence? Western values/popular culture? In reference to our own kids here in the US, as much as I do not want them learning meaningless facts in a rigid environment...I would like them to be able to read at above a 6th grade level and have at least a cursory grasp of History (inc. International History) and of Mathmatics...from empirical evidence, I am pretty disappointed...although I admit I do not have any answers, only questions...but I do remember even in my time (10+ years ago), we all looked back on HighSchool as a joke, from an educational perspective...the real learning began in college...ok, debate on...

*EDIT* Upon further reflection, I must admit I had a couple of teachers in HS, that were truly excellent...in fact, by their example, my passion for learning was flamed...I owe them the greatest debt, and give them my greatest respect...as they went above and beyond what was required of them on paper, as they truly cared...I think that and them make all the difference. Of course, my class sizes were small, and my school was pretty well funded...

[CandelLife]

From many years of dealing with the school system from a parent's point of view, and recently in the last year from the instructors side of the table (however I'm only a learning specialist in a college and not a full fledged teacher....) I know how difficult it is to get the material together in time for the deadline to update all course material and still be sure it is on track with what objectives need to be met.

Combine that with the syllabus, answer keys and all handouts and it's alot of work. There really isn't time to do it all in the time allotted which leads many teachers to do one of two things. There are some who will go that extra step and do this on their own time and others who decide they are not being paid for those extra hours therefore it all will just NOT be done, period.

On top of this, the teachers do not look at the child's history as they come in the door, so if they have a learning problem or definete pattern, it isn't seen until the year is fully underway and the problems start to show themselves. This is done in this way in order not to label a child. Unfortunately it hurts the child. I truly believe that the children's placement should be determined by putting the ones who need more help, whether it be a slow learner or otherwise, who does not quite qualify for special classes in that intermedian class with a teacher who is very good with working with children who need more help. Because let's face the facts, there are teachers out there who just want to teach and have the children learn and do not want to deal with slow learners. Facts are facts I have dealt with some of these types.

I've also had the pleasure of meeting the ones who go the extra mile under extreme hardship to theirself. There's good and bad employees everywhere you go and the teaching profession does not escape this. The ones who teach and want only good students, let them have the easy students or replace them with someone else.

But I'll tell you something, you get what you pay for. If they don't up the money for these deserving souls, there will be more and more disallusioned teachers out there teaching, and more and more students falling through the cracks.

They have to have their funding, there has to be another way besides yanking funding. Perhaps it's the school board that should be held accountable. I read that in Florida it is becoming common practice for schools to place students in special education classes so they are not affecting the FCAT scores. This raises their numbers so their funding isn't hurt. The education system truly needs revamped, but I still feel they are going about it the wrong way.

Voltron, you can cook your own hamburger because if a person doesn't know computer skills they probably won't even be qualified for a position at McDonald's in the near future.

[janey]

candellife -
thats not only in japan, its just as bad in korea
some of my friends have told me that everyone who has the money moves to another country, like the US, because it is easier and better to graduate from a college elsewhere and then go back to korea to get jobs, etc.
they have spent days on end with little or no sleep, eyes bloodshot, on a caffeine trip cramming for insanely huge tests.
i'm glad i'm not there right now :p i enjoy going to see movies and talking to my friends, not studying 24/7.

[Neserk]

The basic problem here is that too many people believe the lies of the politicians. Voltron's whole "teacher's can't be trusted" comes directly from that. It is a bunch of ************.

How many of you can read and write? Add? subtract? Divide? multiple? know the answer to: 7+x=14. Guess what? Thank your teachers, parents and yourself. The group of you are why you can do it.

Children who can't read? Do know who they are talking about? Do you know where those stats are coming from? Often they include children (teenagers) who came into the United States from a country that doesn't speak English. Of course they can't read in English, duh! How many of you can read Chinese? Well, damn! You are illiterate, in Chinese :rolleyes:

The only time children don't learn to read is when they have a learning disability. You can teach any child w/o one to learn to read w/o a problem. When a child has a learning disability it is a bit trickier. You have to keep in mind: we didn't all learn to walk on our 1st birthday. Children generally learn to read between the ages of 4 and 9. That is a big gap.

All the supposed "problems" in education are lies from the far right religious nuts who want the government to pay for their children to go to Christian Fundamentalists schools.

The problem is when people don't realize this they believe the hype (not mentioning any names) and carry it on.

[Neserk]

candellife -
thats not only in japan, its just as bad in korea
some of my friends have told me that everyone who has the money moves to another country, like the US, because it is easier and better to graduate from a college elsewhere and then go back to korea to get jobs, etc.
they have spent days on end with little or no sleep, eyes bloodshot, on a caffeine trip cramming for insanely huge tests.
i'm glad i'm not there right now :p i enjoy going to see movies and talking to my friends, not studying 24/7.

There is also the issue of suicide when they don't get into the right school.

[Voltron]

Then you aren't looking closely enough for differences.
Ok I got a challenge for you then. Without using the dictionary describe to me the difference between the liberalism as practiced by todays Democrats and Socialism. I already know the dictionary deffinition for both. Can you show me stuff that a Socialist would be interested in inacting that a Liberal Democrat would be against? Or is there a real difference anymore? ;)

[screener]

Ok I got a challenge for you then. Without using the dictionary describe to me the difference between the liberalism as practiced by todays Democrats and Socialism. I already know the dictionary deffinition for both. Can you show me stuff that a Socialist would be interested in inacting that a Liberal Democrat would be against? Or is there a real difference anymore? ;)

The Draft.

[mactastic]

Ok I got a challenge for you then. Without using the dictionary describe to me the difference between the liberalism as practiced by todays Democrats and Socialism. I already know the dictionary deffinition for both. Can you show me stuff that a Socialist would be interested in inacting that a Liberal Democrat would be against? Or is there a real difference anymore? ;)

Sure, that's easy. State ownership of the means of production. Has Boortz got you that brainwashed that you really think socialism and liberalism are the same thing? :eek:

[Neserk]

You are certain that standardized testing is the way to for teachers to prove their worth and we've gone around in circles for weeks now with me trying to explain to you otherwise. Here is a challenge: prove it. Prove that standardized testing proves that a teacher is good or bad. I bet that if you move teachers from a high performing school to a low performing schools for 3 years and all else stayed the same you would find that the test scores at the low performing schools stayed low and the ones at the high performing schools stayed high. This would prove that standardized tests do not indicate a teacher's ability to teach. And since you are making the claim the burden of proof is on you.

[screener]

Sucking everything you can out of whatever resources there are to support
the government and the ruling powers at the expense of the evironment.
Oh wait, that sounds like the Republicans and big corporations being the beneficiaries.

[Voltron]

You are certain that standardized testing is the way to for teachers to prove their worth and we've gone around in circles for weeks now with me trying to explain to you otherwise. Here is a challenge: prove it. Prove that standardized testing proves that a teacher is good or bad. I bet that if you move teachers from a high performing school to a low performing schools for 3 years and all else stayed the same you would find that the test scores at the low performing schools stayed low and the ones at the high performing schools stayed high. This would prove that standardized tests do not indicate a teacher's ability to teach. And since you are making the claim the burden of proof is on you.
You could trust teachers like we have in the past and then end up with College Professors complaining that the incoming freshmen are too stupid to be freshmen because they did not learn what they really were suppose to learn in high school.

Take a teacher compare all the students testing average in that teachers class. If they have a high percentage of failures then there is a chance it is a bad teacher or bad luck. Don't fire the teacher after the first failure. If there is a pattern of students failing under that particular teacher, fine move that teacher to a different school and see if that pattern follows him/her. If it does fire them. That is the stick.

The carrot, if students under a particular teacher keep getting high scores on the FCAT then give that teacher a bonus in their paycheck. If a pattern developes and FCAT scores of students under that teacher stays up give that teacher a bonus and a challenge to go to a failing school and keep up the good work. Some sort of reward should be established to insure such a challenge is worth the risk.

Get rid of all tenure. A bad teacher should not be impossible to fire simply because that teacher has tenure.

Otherwise how else could you judge a teachers worth except thru proof of their teaching abilities such as students who actually pass the FCAT?

[mactastic]

Standardized testing can't even tell if a student knows their material let alone a teacher. As my HS AP Calculus teacher told us before taking the multiple choice section of the exam (and only slightly exagerating) "If you're doing any math, you're going about it wrong." He was a great guy.

Anyway the point is, there were 45 questions and 90 minutes. 2 minutes per problem. That's not enough time to actually solve each problem, and the test was designed that way. However by learning good standardized test taking skills you use the process of elimination to dramatically improve your odds before you ever even begin to do any math. Then you attack a small part of the problem to see if you can get the last number of the answer and see if that gives you your answer. Or any number of other ways of eliminating all the wrong answers, and most of the time you don't actually ever solve the problem! All you do is eliminate the wrong answers. That's not learning, but it's what gets you into college. Or out of HS these days.

[Neserk]

You could trust teachers like we have in the past and then end up with College Professors complaining that the incoming freshmen are too stupid to be freshmen because they did not learn what they really were suppose to learn in high school.


Never heard that. Certainly wasn't the case where I went to college. It was the first time in my life I wasn't alone at the top of the class. It was a bit strange for me and took some time to adjust.


Take a teacher compare all the students testing average in that teachers class. If they have a high percentage of failures then there is a chance it is a bad teacher or bad luck.


Bad luck in the sense that s/he got stuck with a bunch of students who can't take standardized tests :D Actually, her/his students scores should fall into a bell shaped curve. (If we are going to go with your plan).


Don't fire the teacher after the first failure. If there is a pattern of students failing under that particular teacher, fine move that teacher to a different school and see if that pattern follows him/her. If it does fire them. That is the stick.


I'd be more inclined to agree with that. I'm not saying there aren't any bad teachers. There definately are. But politicians have made it seem a lot worse than it really is. And the truth of the matter is the human mind is created to learn. You have to work hard at being a bad teacher ;) And you have to work hard at being a great teacher. (My personal goal). The truly bad teachers are the ones that scream at their students on a regular basis. It is sad and it happens.


The carrot, if students under a particular teacher keep getting high scores on the FCAT then give that teacher a bonus in their paycheck.


That leads to cheating. One of the teachers in the district I work in got caught cheating on the tests this year :eek: I hope she gets fired. OTOH, I can understand the temptation. Especially with all the pressure.


If a pattern developes and FCAT scores of students under that teacher stays up give that teacher a bonus and a challenge to go to a failing school and keep up the good work. Some sort of reward should be established to insure such a challenge is worth the risk.


That would work so long as you children were truly diverse economically, which is actually a better predictor of test scores (overall, students in middle class + schools do better on standardized tests -- although it may have more to do with culture and its tie in to socioeconomics than the actual socioeconomics).


Get rid of all tenure. A bad teacher should not be impossible to fire simply because that teacher has tenure.


I was talking to a teacher who has now worked elementary school through graduate school. She said that in the elementary school-high school level tenured teachers can get fired. What usually happens is they get put into jobs where they can do no more harm and eventually disappear :D T


Otherwise how else could you judge a teachers worth except thru proof of their teaching abilities such as students who actually pass the FCAT?

I don't think you can. The sad thing is politics (not the elected version) are very strong in school districts. I worked for a principal last year who could not carry on a conversation with a female (why would you become a prinicipal in an elementary school if you can't relate to females?) and was generally completely incompetent. For the sake of all school children in the area I'm hoping he loses his job and gets moved into administration, soon. He was truly awful.

As far as passing the standardized test go: children with truly awful teachers *can* pass them. It is a question of what they learned from other teachers and what they get at home and how well they function on them. Thankfully most students don't get the same teacher for more than 9 months and in most cases they can survive one year of a bad teacher. If that is indeed the problem.

[blackfox]

I felt I must add something here, although it does not directly relate to the arguments on the benefits/costs of Standardized Testing. I apologize in advance if what I am about to say has been mentioned previously, as I did not wish to re-read the whole thread...

I must ask, where is the responsibility of the students and the parents (which should be closely linked, BTW)...I see that schools and teachers must now be more than institutions or instruments of learning (respectively), but also guidance counselors, sociologists, discipliniarians and psychologists (and more). It has been a good while since I have been in HS, so I can only make educated assumptions on the current state of affairs (I apologize), but I can remember that it was very easy to coast through school as a student if you were so inclined and had the opportunity...and where does the sense of accountability lie? Sure part lies with the schools and the individual teachers, but in fairness, they have to deal with a diverse student populace, and often slow-to-react budgetary and political responses, plus added responsibilities (listed above)...it is quite a juggling act, and I believe it is unfair to criticize either under these circumstances (exclusively). Parents on the other hand, have only their children to worry about, whom they have known their whole lives, and who should seemingly be their primary interest and responsibility...to abdicate to the school district and then complain, seems nonsensical...I do understand that all too often a given set (or one) of parents time is unduly consumed by employment and financial obligations, often to a degree not seen a few decades ago, but that still does not abdicate them from responsibility and transfer it to the educational system. As far as the children, I believe (from experience) that study-habits and an interest in learning must be instilled young, which primarily falls upon the parents to instill...as they have a knowledge of their children and more flexibility to come up with solutions, although the school and teachers are definitely a resource...otherwise, the social dynamics later in schooling serve to distract from any interest in academic performance.

I have, of course, been generalizing...but I hope to point to the underlying fact that Standardized Testing seems to treat a symptom, not the underlying cause. If the Government and communities were to adequately fund their schools (financially and in terms of interest/resources), and if accountability was brought to bear where it really needs to be (and subsequent help given)...I believe much of the problems would be solved...ST just seems like an easy political solution, that once again puts undue strain on an underfunded and overworked educational system and individual teachers...simple (though expensive) measures like new schools and equipment (not from corporate donors), smaller class-sizes and some measure of mandatory parent involvement and accountability seems like a good and logical start...

Feel free to poke holes in my argument...I am afraid this is not a subject I am particularily knowledgeable about...but if/when I have school-age kids, you can bet I will be.

[Neserk]

Blackfox: Your instincts are good. I didn't realize until I started teaching how important my parents were in my educational success (especially through middle school).

I remember conferencing with parents last year and asking them if they were reading with their 1st & 2nd graders. The answer for those who had students struggling with reading was often: I just don't have the time!

In their defense these parents are often working 2 jobs (each) to keep food on the table -- I work in a low-income school district. The problem is their children will repeat the pattern if they don't *find* the time to read with their children (crucial at this age).

I did the only thing I could do: I extended my work day by 1 hour and spent an hour with those students whose parents would let them stay and read with them. We read individually and in small groups. It helped some but the budget ran out and (believe or not) I can't just donate my time :rolleyes:

I did see (and lots of teachers will tell you the same) a strong correlation between parents who find the time to read with their kids and work with their kids on their homework each day (as mine did) and their child's success in school. It doesn't mean they will be a straight A student. It does mean they will learn, though. This success is not measured on tests. It is measured in real learning: a child who couldn't read who now can.

[zimv20]

I did the only thing I could do: I extended my work day by 1 hour and spent an hour with those students whose parents would let them stay and read with them. We read individually and in small groups.
i think it's great that you did that, even if it did have to end.

i have a friend who teaches middle school in the chicago public school system. every year there's less money for classroom supplies and she spends a growing part of her own salary on art supplies, paper, pencils, et. al.

she works nights just to make ends meet. i think we owe teachers and students more than they're currently getting.

[Neserk]

i think it's great that you did that, even if it did have to end.

i have a friend who teaches middle school in the chicago public school system. every year there's less money for classroom supplies and she spends a growing part of her own salary on art supplies, paper, pencils, et. al.

she works nights just to make ends meet. i think we owe teachers and students more than they're currently getting.

Thanks. I loved doing it. It is awesome to get to spend time with a small group of children. I figured I could go home and veg in front of the tv or do something useful with myself. I went for the useful ;)

[Krizoitz]

Once again Americans (and I'm one) are looking for the quick fix instead of trying to solve the problem the way problems get solved. Hard work and involvement. Standardized tests may have a valid use, but like anything if we rely soley on those we are moving form one extremem to another. Succesful teaching involves teachers willing to invest in teaching, parents willing to invest in their children, children willing to learn, and most of all communities willing to support their schools. Maybe if we had more involved parents and communities willing to support their schools we would have better scores.

In addition it is worth noting that in many countries they don't test everyone, yet here in America we do. Students who barely know English or have learning disabilities are included where as in places like Japan only the top students proceed to the high school level where they are tested.

[Voltron]

Once again Americans (and I'm one) are looking for the quick fix instead of trying to solve the problem the way problems get solved. Hard work and involvement. Standardized tests may have a valid use, but like anything if we rely soley on those we are moving form one extremem to another. Succesful teaching involves teachers willing to invest in teaching, parents willing to invest in their children, children willing to learn, and most of all communities willing to support their schools. Maybe if we had more involved parents and communities willing to support their schools we would have better scores.

In addition it is worth noting that in many countries they don't test everyone, yet here in America we do. Students who barely know English or have learning disabilities are included where as in places like Japan only the top students proceed to the high school level where they are tested.
But you can't fire parents so you have to concentrate your efforts on things that can actually be changed.

[Neserk]

But you can't fire parents so you have to concentrate your efforts on things that can actually be changed.

Changing the teachers doesn't help. I can give you a 99% guarantee that switching teachers between low and high performing schools would result in almost identical test scores. The schools themselves (ie the students) would not see an change in scores.

So lets try something that might actually work. Like educating parents for starters.

[Voltron]

Changing the teachers doesn't help. I can give you a 99% guarantee that switching teachers between low and high performing schools would result in almost identical test scores. The schools themselves (ie the students) would not see an change in scores.

So lets try something that might actually work. Like educating parents for starters.
Firing bad teachers, replacing them with good teachers would work.

[Voltron]

Speaking of a bad teacher I just got gigged 5% in Algebra because I didn't show the work completly to prove to him I did it his way. Isn't it more important I came up with the right answer? I did not cheat he knows I did not cheat I just do things differently. Most of the problem I do in my head, sometimes I use unorthodoxed methods or that is methods not taught by him that does not mean I should be penalized I got the correct answers didn't I.

This I call a loussy teacher.

[numediaman]

This I call a loussy teacher.

Hard to argue with that.

[Neserk]

Firing bad teachers, replacing them with good teachers would work.

But you have yet to prove that testing children with standardized tests sorts out good teachers from bad teachers.

[Neserk]

Speaking of a bad teacher I just got gigged 5% in Algebra because I didn't show the work completly to prove to him I did it his way. Isn't it more important I came up with the right answer? I did not cheat he knows I did not cheat I just do things differently. Most of the problem I do in my head, sometimes I use unorthodoxed methods or that is methods not taught by him that does not mean I should be penalized I got the correct answers didn't I.
.

This is common practice. A teacher needs to see that you understand how to do it. I often see children figuring it out in their head. The problem is that simplier problems are used to teach technique. Then as problems become more complicated (and can't be figured out in their head) they can apply the same technique. It isn't about getting the right answer but is about learning the process and understanding *how* you got to the answer. Math often builds from one skill to the next. If a student skips a step they may get lost and consequently, stuck. If you were my student I would have made you redo the whole math paper and follow directions this time: show your work! Even though your teacher may seem unfair to *you* he/she is actually a good teacher (from what you describe) because s/he wants you to actually learn your math, not just come up with the right answer!

BTW: where are you in school?

Oh, and "lousy" is spelled with one "s" not two. ;)

[Voltron]

This is common practice. A teacher needs to see that you understand how to do it. I often see children figuring it out in their head. The problem is that simplier problems are used to teach technique. Then as problems become more complicated (and can't be figured out in their head) they can apply the same technique. It isn't about getting the right answer but is about learning the process and understanding *how* you got to the answer. Math often builds from one skill to the next. If a student skips a step they may get lost and consequently, stuck. If you were my student I would have made you redo the whole math paper and follow directions this time: show your work! Even though your teacher may seem unfair to *you* he/she is actually a good teacher (from what you describe) because s/he wants you to actually learn your math, not just come up with the right answer!

BTW: where are you in school?

Oh, and "lousy" is spelled with one "s" not two. ;)
I don't use spellcheckers when I'm not writting a school paper.
Back in High School I had this same problem with an Algebra teacher not only did she not like me not showing my work she also didn't like me sleeping in class. But I got straight A's. To keep me awake she would make special tests just for me but I got tired of the crap so one time while she was writing on of them tests I got up and stood behind her and gave her the answers to all of the problems she was writting as she was writting them. I wish I was still that good at it but that was over 20 years ago and I am extremely rusty. I could have gotten a scholarship via FBLA, passed an entire semester of accounting in two weeks because I felt like it. Messed up the FBLA championships tho, didn't qualify for state because I didn't care about it. I only did it because the teacher would make it so I could skip a half a day of school anytime I felt like it without anyone marking me abscent. I never studied and by the time I made it to the state finals I had forgotten so much I didn't even qualify. I didn't realize at the time I could've gotten a scholarship out of the deal, and I ended up joining the military instead of going to college.

I'm not interested in taking higher level math so some of this stuff I really don't care about. I got the right answer that should be good enough.
I'm just interested in getting a stupid piece of paper so employers will higher me for jobs I'm perfectly capable of doing right now but they want a college degree for some inane reason. Not like I'm learning anything worth learning. voltaire, Tartuffe, Candide all of that crap is just that crap not worth knowing, like who cares that donatello got ran out of Florence for diddly 10 year olds, like any of this stuff will help me be qualified to do a job. Yet I'm suppose to take this crap seriously and pass. Its hard to pretend I care but I'm getting A's and B's with the help of a very good spelling/gramatical checker of course.

[blackfox]

I don't use spellcheckers when I'm not writting a school paper.
Back in High School I had this same problem with an Algebra teacher not only did she not like me not showing my work she also didn't like me sleeping in class. But I got straight A's. To keep me awake she would make special tests just for me but I got tired of the crap so one time while she was writing on of them tests I got up and stood behind her and gave her the answers to all of the problems she was writting as she was writting them. I wish I was still that good at it but that was over 20 years ago and I am extremely rusty. I could have gotten a scholarship via FBLA, passed an entire semester of accounting in two weeks because I felt like it. Messed up the FBLA championships tho, didn't qualify for state because I didn't care about it. I only did it because the teacher would make it so I could skip a half a day of school anytime I felt like it without anyone marking me abscent. I never studied and by the time I made it to the state finals I had forgotten so much I didn't even qualify. I didn't realize at the time I could've gotten a scholarship out of the deal, and I ended up joining the military instead of going to college.

I'm not interested in taking higher level math so some of this stuff I really don't care about. I got the right answer that should be good enough.
I'm just interested in getting a stupid piece of paper so employers will higher me for jobs I'm perfectly capable of doing right now but they want a college degree for some inane reason. Not like I'm learning anything worth learning. voltaire, Tartuffe, Candide all of that crap is just that crap not worth knowing, like who cares that donatello got ran out of Florence for diddly 10 year olds, like any of this stuff will help me be qualified to do a job. Yet I'm suppose to take this crap seriously and pass. Its hard to pretend I care but I'm getting A's and B's with the help of a very good spelling/gramatical checker of course.
De Facto evidence that there are many kinds of Intelligence...so the same person can be both intelligent AND stupid at the same time. That is why ST is a bad idea, and I thank Voltron for proving this very important point.

[Neserk]

That is another indication that your teacher is a good teacher. S/he is concerned not with one student who doesn't give a damn, but rather is teaching those who truly want to learn. In an ideal world you could have been taught to your own personal style. But in the real world there are 20-35 students in the classroom and the teacher has to make decisions that are best for the majority of the class. Not the one kid who doesn't really need her help.

[Neserk]

De Facto evidence that there are many kinds of Intelligence...so the same person can be both intelligent AND stupid at the same time. That is why ST is a bad idea, and I thank Voltron for proving this very important point.

Tell me about it. When it comes to the kind that has to with athletics I am dumber than a doornail ;) or is that a doorknob? Either way. I'm a klutz.

[zimv20]

sly - coulda woulda shoulda didn't, huh?

[Voltron]

News report on TV now not only colleges require SAT's for entrance but some businesses are requiring it too. So how is it that we can expect a kid, who never has to do an FCAT, be expected to pass an SAT?

[Neserk]

News report on TV now not only colleges require SAT's for entrance but some businesses are requiring it too. So how is it that we can expect a kid, who never has to do an FCAT, be expected to pass an SAT?


You don't pass or fail the SATs, for starters. Secondly, If the SATs did what they claim to do you wouldn't have to *ever* have taken a standardized test. Finally, a business using the SATs is a misuse of the test. Its intention is to predict how well a student will do in college. What it actually predicts, for some, is how well they do their first semester of college, which I've stated a billion times is not predictive of anything.

Hang in there, you might yet find a use for those stupid tests beside for training puppies.

[takao]

Back in High School ...[snip] voltaire, Tartuffe, Candide all of that crap is just that crap not worth knowing, like who cares that donatello got ran out of Florence for diddly 10 year olds, like any of this stuff will help me be qualified to do a job. Yet I'm suppose to take this crap seriously and pass. Its hard to pretend I care but I'm getting A's and B's with the help of a very good spelling/gramatical checker of course.

hm well i can say i'm different to you...when taking exams some of them were of course annoying (most in those 'courses' where i know that i am good) and the others where interesting ;)

i have no problem being interested in multiple subjects which doesn't have anything to do with my studing object now (computer science)
i liked history, geography (were my final exam subjects), biology,(history of)arts,and similiar subjects...of course i wasn't bad in maths,physics,chemistry,geometry....(i was only moderate in languages 'D-E' in french, 'C' in german (expression 'a',orthography 'D'), and english 'B-C')

i have no problem knowing more that i have to know... i don't call something crap just because i'm not interested ....
(my personal interests beside computers is history of arts/history i like reading stuff about that...)

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/geosurvey/
look at those results to see that american school system is lacking at least in one subject....a lot

[zimv20]

hee hee -- i see sly doesn't know the difference between education and vocational training.


The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. -- Alvin Toffler

[CandelLife]

hee hee -- i see sly doesn't know the difference between education and vocational training.


Don't knock vocational training...it helps those students who could be very productive members of society except they lack in areas that cause it to be difficult to learn the same as "credit" side students.

Vocational students only have to pass the "TABE" test, and they have until the end of their courses to complete it, they can even take it numerous times until they earn passing grades. I have seen students come in who can't even type 11 words per minute (with many mistakes) yet by the time they leave they are typing 40 wpm with few to no mistakes.

It isn't just the computer skills that they improve, but any that they concentrate on. BTW I'm a learning Specialist for vocational students, did I ever mention that?

Keep in mind that some vocational students go on to "credit-side" after completing their certification as they improve their skills. I find many of them have passed through the cracks of education because the teachers were too over burdened to be able to assist them as they needed. Once they get the help, a different style of teaching, they make it just fine.

Here we lead back to all the different styles of learning...discussed before in this thread.....it's a proven fact, they are able to succeed. They ARE.

[Neserk]

I find many of them have passed through the cracks of education because the teachers were too over burdened to be able to assist them as they needed. Once they get the help, a different style of teaching, they make it just fine.

Here we lead back to all the different styles of learning...discussed before in this thread.....it's a proven fact, they are able to succeed. They ARE.


You've got it! The problem is multifaceted. Not only do students have different learning styles and teachers have different teaching styles, but there are also different kinds of intelligence! Athleticism is one kind, mechanical is another kind, musical is another, language is another! "Book Smarts" is only one kind of intelligence. We also know that we can improve someone's academic intellgence if we tap into their strenghts. That includes kinestics, etc.

I'll be able to explain it better in December when I get an in depth look at the various theories on intelligence and learning styles over the course of the fall semester.

So good to see someone knows this stuff! :D

[zimv20]

Don't knock vocational training...[chomp]
was i? or is simply pointing out it's different than education knocking it?

[CandelLife]

You've got it! The problem is multifaceted. Not only do students have different learning styles and teachers have different teaching styles, but there are also different kinds of intelligence! Athleticism is one kind, mechanical is another kind, musical is another, language is another! "Book Smarts" is only one kind of intelligence. We also know that we can improve someone's academic intellgence if we tap into their strenghts. That includes kinestics, etc.

I'll be able to explain it better in December when I get an in depth look at the various theories on intelligence and learning styles over the course of the fall semester.

So good to see someone knows this stuff! :D


Yessssssss!!! ;) Unfortunatley, public system school teachers don't have the time to delve into this, it's either mainstream or "S.tupid L.ittle D.orks" as some unkempt kids like to call the SLD students. (I finally remembered what my son told me the name was and why he didn't want to "go there")...

And sorry Zimv...if I get a little defensive when it seems someone might be blighting slower learners....I might have taken it wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.....

Kids are as different as night and day...all people are different...but it's all taught one way because it's all there is funding for. You'd be suprised at how much it helps to have software that walks students through steps...or books that show how to do something step by step.....and gradually progresses as they go along until they are up to speed. Also activities that involve the student in real world scenarios so they completly "get" why they are learning something.

All this time is being spent memorizing dates and names....WHYYYYYYYYYY??????????????????????????
Any one of you who has been in the world for awhile....have you ever used this information for anything? We waste so much time teaching kids about things they don't need to know, things that they have no choice but to only learn by rote memorization.....and for what outcome? A grade? More funding for the school due to "NUMBERS"?

Sad.

[zimv20]

Any one of you who has been in the world for awhile....have you ever used this information for anything?
by "this information," do you mean knowledge about history, art, sociology, et. al.? the answer is a resounding "yes! everyday!"


We waste so much time teaching kids about things they don't need to know, things that they have no choice but to only learn by rote memorization.....and for what outcome? A grade? More funding for the school due to "NUMBERS"?

w/o defending rote memorization, i am definitely for classical education. i don't know if, by waste, you mean rote memorization, or anything which doesn't directly help in a job.

the memorization means so much more if there's knowledge behind all those dates, facts and numbers. yeah, the memorization sucks, but it's sure nice, as an adult, having had at least an overview of what's happened in the past 46 billion years.

[Neserk]

Any one of you who has been in the world for awhile....have you ever used this information for anything? We waste so much time teaching kids about things they don't need to know, things that they have no choice but to only learn by rote memorization.....and for what outcome? A grade? More funding for the school due to "NUMBERS"?

Sad.


Actually there is a lot of benefit to learning this "stuff." It has as much to do with learning history and about the world in general as it does to do with gaining study skills (including rote memorization which is necessary for things like Multiplication tables).

The problem often lies in the way in which the material is being taught. Our generation was bored to tears in the classroom. When the material is made to be interesting it is easier to learn. This is the problem with the FCAT, CAT6 etc. Teachers are forced to teach the "safe" way which is lecturing and memorizing and answering questions at the end of the chapter. It would be better for students to be able to specialize in an area (instead of the first 100 years of American History, study the 13 colonies, for example) and learn that era really well and then they teach it to the class. There are a billion different ways to do it, but standardized testing has taken over and children are expected to know too much over too broad of an area. I don't need to rattle off dates off the top of my head. I need to know approxiamately when things happened and approximately what order they happened in and how to find the specific information from various sources!

Anyhow... that is my rant on education for the night... :p

[CandelLife]

That's what I'm talking about. It's good to have a solid base foundation to work from. There's nothing wrong with knowing about our history. But I do still feel that more emphasis should be put on "neccessary knowledge" and label extra "good to know but not neccessary in your work life" as the same as learning about music or art. Music and art is a wonderful thing... but it is phased out in some areas so they can concentrate on what the children will be tested on. What makes the dates we had to learn any different?

It's all important, but there isn't enough time for all of it, so subject matter is "picked and chosen" all the time. I'm just saying they should do it with the "knowledge-worthy" dates and names the same way.

For instance....

Everyone remembers the first President of the United States, but do you remember all the rest? Or only the most recent ones? But you were tested on it in school. Do you need it in your daily life now? That's one small example...I can bring forth more that would fill pages if I felt like wasting the time. Again, pick and choose what to spend time on for the kids, as we do ourselves. I don't see anything far-fetched about this notion.

One last one...

"In 1482, Columbus sailed the ocean blue..."

Remember that one?

Ok, what other dates do you remember?

Would you pass a history test after it's been 20 years after high school?

Ask yourself "why not" and answer it truthfully.

[Neserk]

For instance....

Everyone remembers the first President of the United States, but do you remember all the rest? Or only the most recent ones? But you were tested on it in school. Do you need it in your daily life now? That's one small example...I can bring forth more that would fill pages if I felt like wasting the time. Again, pick and choose what to spend time on for the kids, as we do ourselves. I don't see anything far-fetched about this notion.


Me? Heck no! I can't remember dates or names! I think it is important to learn *about* them but not have to memorize their names or when they were Presidents. Do they make you do *that* in Florida????

[CandelLife]

They did 20 years ago when I was in public school, and they did for my oldest son....age 16. :cool:

[Chip NoVaMac]

.

It's difficult to believe that someone would have to take a grade three times but some don't learn from their mistakes.



Some people do not deal well with standardized testing. Particularly when the pressure in on in a test like the FCAT.

[CandelLife]

I know I didn't...but I still graduated with a Diploma. Can't do that these days in Florida. You get a certificate of completion instead.

I did poorly because I knew it didn't count and I didn't care about it, wasn't an important thing. But honestly, if it did count then, I probably wouldn't have made it because I freeze up on tests, always have.

[Chip NoVaMac]

was i? or is simply pointing out it's different than education knocking it?

I am not sure about today, but when I was in HS, vocational training also required attendance and passing basic parts of reading, writing, and math.

[Neserk]

They did 20 years ago when I was in public school, and they did for my oldest son....age 16. :cool:

Seriously, move. There are 49 other states ;)

[Neserk]

But honestly, if it did count then, I probably wouldn't have made it because I freeze up on tests, always have.

Your son may do the same. You may want to have him tested by a psychologist for Test Anxiety. (LOL.... tested for test anxiety :rolleyes: )

Anyhow, if he has it they have to give him alternative testing methods and should *not* be allowed to keep him in 3rd grade again!

[Ugg]

That's what I'm talking about. It's good to have a solid base foundation to work from. There's nothing wrong with knowing about our history. But I do still feel that more emphasis should be put on "neccessary knowledge" and label extra "good to know but not neccessary in your work life" as the same as learning about music or art. Music and art is a wonderful thing... but it is phased out in some areas so they can concentrate on what the children will be tested on. What makes the dates we had to learn any different?

It's all important, but there isn't enough time for all of it, so subject matter is "picked and chosen" all the time. I'm just saying they should do it with the "knowledge-worthy" dates and names the same way.

For instance....

Everyone remembers the first President of the United States, but do you remember all the rest? Or only the most recent ones? But you were tested on it in school. Do you need it in your daily life now? That's one small example...I can bring forth more that would fill pages if I felt like wasting the time. Again, pick and choose what to spend time on for the kids, as we do ourselves. I don't see anything far-fetched about this notion.

One last one...

"In 1482, Columbus sailed the ocean blue..."

Remember that one?

Ok, what other dates do you remember?

Would you pass a history test after it's been 20 years after high school?

Ask yourself "why not" and answer it truthfully.

You do have a good point but I have to admit that rote memorization, especially in language classes, is the only way to go. I can still quote in its entirety "Twas the night before Christmas" A few paragraphs from Goethe's Faust, in German and a handful of French Christmas carols. Rote memorization is perfectly fine and necessary in many cases but I don't see the point of memorizing the presidents, I never did, or the capitals of the states or the year they were admitted to the union, etc.

Rote memorization is ideal for some things but a waste of time for others, who gets to choose what's a waste and what's not?

[Neserk]

Rote memorization is ideal for some things but a waste of time for others, who gets to choose what's a waste and what's not?


Whoever currently is in power :rolleyes:

[Chip NoVaMac]

The problem often lies in the way in which the material is being taught. Our generation was bored to tears in the classroom. When the material is made to be interesting it is easier to learn.

This is something that I learned when doing some substitute teaching. An English class I had one day was a reading a book (can't remember the title), that had been made into a movie. That movie was going to be on TV like on Friday or Saturday night.

I gave them homework for the weekend (yeah, I was a meany). They were to take a chapter from the book and write a brief comparative analysis with that portion of the movie. I asked for only a page and half.

Monday came and the teacher of that class ran into me in the lounge (the life of a sub, new classes every day). 80% of the students did the assignment (pretty good for homework from a sub I was told). 60% did more than two pages.

All I did was try to make it interesting.

[Neserk]

All I did was try to make it interesting.

Very cool!

In my 1st/2nd grade class I read them Stellaluna then showed them a video of it. I had 7 and 8 year olds doing contrast and comparison of literature v. cinema :D They loved it!

[CandelLife]

That is so awesome! :D

That's the kind of teachers that are remembered!


I had an accounting teacher in High School that told the stupidest jokes yet funny and another teacher that started each and every single class with "It's a be-u-ti-ful day in Orlando!" (Whether it was rain or shine) They're teaching styles were the same as their personalities. They stuck with me. Another teacher in a language class was from Purdue University and always talked about whether her team won or lost or how she thought they were going to do, but did it in a way that was sooo funny because she was obsessed with them!

They may have spent only 5 minutes or less on this type of thing, but they were "personable" and seemed real. We paid attention to them because of it. I did well in those classes because they "captured" my attention. Every chance to add something real to the lesson was done, and we looked forward to their classes.

There are so many ways that teachers can reach out to their students and bring out the best in them. But acting like a child doesn't belong in your room or they are nothing but a bother or a disruption to teaching the kids like a room full of zombies will not net the same results. And it isn't fair to the children.

I'm worried that there isn't the time to do these things as teachers would like to do anymore now that so much emphasis is being put on the FCAT. My sons school letter came home yesterday, it was an A school and now is a B school. I'm sure it isn't the only one. The system as it stands isn't working. I'm sure in time, all the bugs will be worked out so it can work. But what about right now? How many kids will it hurt before it helps them?