Cheney interviewed about Plame affair

[Sayhey]

Most fingers are pointed to the Vice-President's office, so it is not surprising that he is questioned. Add this to the news that Bush has "lawyered up" and I don't think this story is going to just fade away. If senior administration officials are indicted it will likely have an effect on this election.



WASHINGTON, June 4 — Vice President Dick Cheney was recently interviewed by federal prosecutors who asked whether he knew of anyone at the White House who had improperly disclosed the identity of an undercover C.I.A. officer, people who have been involved in official discussions about the case said on Friday.

Mr. Cheney was also asked about conversations with senior aides, including his chief of staff, I. Lewis Libby, according to people officially informed about the case. In addition, those people said, Mr. Cheney was asked whether he knew of any concerted effort by White House aides to name the officer. It was not clear how Mr. Cheney responded to the prosecutors' questions.

The interview of the vice president was part of a grand jury investigation into whether anyone at the White House violated a federal law that makes it a crime to divulge the name of an undercover officer intentionally.

Mr. Cheney is not thought to be a focus of the inquiry, which Patrick J. Fitzgerald, the United States attorney in Chicago, heads. Mr. Fitzgerald was appointed by the Justice Department as a special counsel in the case.

NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/05/politics/05LEAK.html?hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1086408544-orMI1lA3gLIUuAbFwW61Hg)

[Neserk]

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=74092

This article talks about what Bush knew. Thought it should be cross-referenced :D

[IJ Reilly]

I doubt very seriously that anyone will ever be indicted. Probably very few people knew about this, and those who did, can plead no comprende, and there'll be no way to pierce that wall of silence. I predict that the only thing we're ever going to know is that somebody at the White House pulled a dirty trick of Nixionian proportions. That's indictment enough for me -- of the entire administration.

[wwworry]

It's my feeling that the American people can not understand presidential lawlessness unless they can relate to it on a personal/reptilian level. So, while Bush can be buddy buddy with, and make policy with, the likes of Ken Lay, or spout the untruths of a convicted swindler like Chalabi in the state of the union address, or illeagally divert terror funding away from the real war on terror (Afghanistan) to Iraq (where there was no evidence of terrorists) and convince people that Iraq was where the real terrorists were, etc. etc.

[give away billions to the drug industry, pile huge amounts of debt onto working class Americans, repudiate the Geneva convention etc. etc.]

unless the crime is something personal the American people will always let Bush off the hook. Lies about energy policy, industrial policy, fiscal policy, foreign wars don't count, however, a blowjob does count big time.

"Let's say you're having a beer with the president ..."

Let's get real - outing the CIA operative is much worse than getting a blowjob from some willing intern. Not only can the outing put the life of the CIA operative in danger it can put the life of everyone she has worked with in danger and mess up operations that may have taken years to develope.

[Desertrat]

"Not only can the outing put the life of the CIA operative in danger it can put the life of everyone she has worked with in danger and mess up operations that may have taken years to develope."

True. That's why it's more egregious than the Clintonian treatment of the staff of the White House travel office. The behavior pattern is pretty much the same.

The general change in the "enemies" atmosphere in American politics during this last forty or so years is unsettling, to say the least. The incredible drive by both major parties to have control of the federal government is "plumb scary".

Sure, the parties have always squabbled. But decade by decade, there's less of "the good of the country" and more of "the good of the party". And now, anybody who disagrees with "holy writ" of either party becomes an enemy...

'Rat

[IJ Reilly]

'Rat, you are going to have to justify analogizing the Clinton travel office with the Plame business. And no, they aren't equivalent just because you say so. Please start with the laws that were broken and the national security issues raised by both. Then you should move onto the use of executive power to retaliate against political enemies. Please explain how they were "pretty much the same."

[zimv20]

isn't outing a CIA agent considered an act of treason?

[Sayhey]

'Rat, you are going to have to justify analogizing the Clinton travel office with the Plame business. And no, they aren't equivalent just because you say so. Please start with the laws that were broken and the national security issues raised by both. Then you should move onto the use of executive power to retaliate against political enemies. Please explain how they were "pretty much the same."

It might be good to throw in the fact, IIRC, that after intensive investigation, no one was ever indicted, much less convicted, of wrong doing in the travel office "scandal." It is far too early to make such a claim about the Bush administration and the Plame affair. A strange sort of equivalence.

[IJ Reilly]

It might be good to throw in the fact, IIRC, that after intensive investigation, no one was ever indicted, much less convicted, of wrong doing in the travel office "scandal." It is far too early to make such a claim about the Bush administration and the Plame affair. A strange sort of equivalence.

I believe your memory serves you well. The most serious charge made in "Travelgate" was that the White House asked for and got FBI file information on one of the travel office employees they'd fired. Ken Starr investigated but found nothing of consequence. In the Plame case, we know something untoward happened, we just don't know who did it.

[Desertrat]

'Scuse me? Billy what's-his-name's legal fees ran toward a half-million dollars, per newspaper reports of the time. Bankrupt; career ruined.

'Rat

[IJ Reilly]

He was charged with a crime. The abuse of power question is related to whether the charges were ginned up by somebody in the Clinton administration. Nobody ever demonstrated that they were, and Ken Starr had plenty of time and money to do so.

[Desertrat]

Overall, my concern, really, is the degree of hatefulness in this "enemies" thing.

I think back to "Mr. Sam" as Speaker, and his "Don't get mad; get even." view. The get-even usually had to do with somebody's pet piece of legislation, not personal vendettas.

LBJ was known for siccing the IRS on perceived enemies. Then came Nixon's "Enemies list". Anybody disagreeing with his policies was some sort of Ugly Thing. There was a bit of a hiatus during Reagan, and then we had the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" stuff and the FBI files. Now we get the "outing" of a guy's wife because he didn't toe the Party Line.

I've been around a lot of bar talk and CB chatter during my years, with a lot of harsh views of government and both parties' politicians. The virulence of recent years, however, is incredible. Whether hardcoretalk.com or duunderground.com or whatever, I call it sickening.

How can anybody expect to get any sort of cooperative effort on anything with all the name-calling and lying? When it comes from both sides, it seems to me that there's no reason to expect anything but further divisiveness...

'Rat

[screener]

You would think that because of national security issues here, Novak would be compelled to cough up the name. Does he get a pass because he only came close to the line? Where is the line?

[Voltron]

isn't outing a CIA agent considered an act of treason?
So is giving the Chinese our nuclear secrets.

[screener]

You'd think the Patriot Act would come into play here.
Drag all the usual suspects to detention and sweat it out of them.

[IJ Reilly]

Overall, my concern, really, is the degree of hatefulness in this "enemies" thing.

I think back to "Mr. Sam" as Speaker, and his "Don't get mad; get even." view. The get-even usually had to do with somebody's pet piece of legislation, not personal vendettas.

LBJ was known for siccing the IRS on perceived enemies. Then came Nixon's "Enemies list". Anybody disagreeing with his policies was some sort of Ugly Thing. There was a bit of a hiatus during Reagan, and then we had the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" stuff and the FBI files. Now we get the "outing" of a guy's wife because he didn't toe the Party Line.

I've been around a lot of bar talk and CB chatter during my years, with a lot of harsh views of government and both parties' politicians. The virulence of recent years, however, is incredible. Whether hardcoretalk.com or duunderground.com or whatever, I call it sickening.

How can anybody expect to get any sort of cooperative effort on anything with all the name-calling and lying? When it comes from both sides, it seems to me that there's no reason to expect anything but further divisiveness...

Well I agree with you in principle, but I'd caution you against giving a "pass" to those of a political like-mind and from treating unsubstantiated allegations as fact when they're about people on the other side of the political fence. If you really want to be a firewall against the nastiness in American politics, that is.

As for the FBI files, they never should have found their way into the White House, and even the administration admitted as much. The real question goes to how this information was used, and even after all those years of intensive investigation, nobody discovered any abuse. The Plame case can be worked backwards. The abuse occurred, the only question is, who did the deed. I believe we'll never find out.

[Sayhey]

'Rat,

I'm always more impressed by those who will stand up against their friends and allies when they do wrong. I can't tell if you are dismissing the attacks on Clinton with the much derided phrase "vast right wing conspiracy" or it is short hand for acknowledging the abuses of the conservative nuts who have made a life out of attacking the Clintons on everything from fabricated murder and drug running charges to their choice in hairstyles. If you want to stop the polarization of US politics then it would be best to start with those who have made a living spreading these lies and distortions for the last decade and more. It looks to me, however, that you still buy into much of their nonsense, the "travelgate" equivalence being a case in point.

[Neserk]

'Rat,

I'm always more impressed by those who will stand up against their friends and allies when they do wrong.

That is a bit of Social Psychology. People who stand up for a cause at their own personal expense are more believed than those who stand up for a cause that benefits them. IOW, it is more powerful for a Republican to say "Bush is a moron" than a Democrat.

[Sayhey]

You'd think the Patriot Act would come into play here.
Drag all the usual suspects to detention and sweat it out of them.

Glow sticks for everyone? Just have Bush declare the lot of suspects as enemy combatants (they did undermine national security during a time of war, right?) and throw them all in jail without recourse to a lawyer or the protections of the Geneva Convention. I bet Rove, "Scooter," and Novak wouldn't last five minutes. Damn, the problem with this idea is the President would have to include himself in with the rest of the suspects. :eek:

[screener]

Glow sticks for everyone? Just have Bush declare the lot of suspects as enemy combatants (they did undermine national security during a time of war, right?) and throw them all in jail without recourse to a lawyer or the protections of the Geneva Convention. I bet Rove, "Scooter," and Novak wouldn't last five minutes. Damn, the problem with this idea is the President would have to include himself in with the rest of the suspects. :eek:

Take 'em in as witnesses in protective custody. Isn't that what prosecutors do when they suspect someone with knowledge of a crime won't testify?
What about Novac and national security?
Where is the line for the press? He had to have knowledge of her activities?
He has knowledge it was against the law now.
Hell, if I thought I was used I'd be singing like a vulture over the carcass
of whoever took advantage of my naivete.

[Voltron]

That is a bit of Social Psychology. People who stand up for a cause at their own personal expense are more believed than those who stand up for a cause that benefits them. IOW, it is more powerful for a Republican to say "Bush is a moron" than a Democrat.
Also more suicidal.

[skunk]

Also more suicidal.
:D

[Neserk]

Also more suicidal.


Honest.