Do you hit your kids?

[TSE]

Do you hit/spank your kids, or correct them someway through pain if they get out of line?

If you don't have kids yet, do you plan on doing this?

Parenting has really become controversial, and this is the topic most controversial about it. I personally have been spanked by my parents, with their hands and a belt, and I think I have come out alright. Once I get kids, I plan on spanking them if they get out of hand occasionally, but not much. For example, if one of my kids is acting like a spoiled brat at a public place like a grocery store, they probably wouldn't behave just because I tell them," Okay, that's it, NO sugar cereals for a month, and no more video games!" because kids don't think in the long term. Therefore I would give my kid a quick, hard, spank in the butt.

[Ivan P]

I hit 'em upside the head every single time I don't get my way.

...I'm far too young and gay to have kids... :p

[SuperCompu2]

Great topic idea, I'm excited to see how it turns out!

[mcnicks]

If you smacked an adult in a store or at home, it would be considered assault. I think we have to ask: how are children different from adults in this respect? Are children not entitled to a number of human rights because they are unable to understand them? Or because they are unable to take responsibility over their actions? Parents have a duty of care over their kids, and that grants them leeway to intervene when their childrens' safety is at stake, but is smacking an intervention or an expression of a very skewed power relation between parent and child?

I think we also have to question whether children really "do not know any better" or "do not understand deferred gratification" or "only respond to instant pain-based correction".

Would you accept a nurse smacking an adult with learning difficulties in public or private in order to correct errant behaviour? What about teachers smacking pupils who step out of line? Or if corporal punishment is deemed acceptable, could it be used within the legal system to punish minors? What if a stranger smacked your child in order to avert some dangerous situation from transpiring? I am asking a lot of questions because I think that there are a lot of hidden assumptions.

I think that parents often smack children out of desperation, and lord knows that kids can be unruly and manipulative. However, fundamentally, I believe that using violence to correct behaviour in children is wrong and tantamount to assault. In more general terms, I think that violence begets violence. By smacking children, we are teaching them that violence is perfectly reasonable as long as you are on the powerful end of the relationship.

[jecapaga]

I was hit growing up, I didn't appreciate it. When in the position to use hitting as an option to deal with problems as a parent, I did it a bit slightly in the beginning, but ultimately I felt communication and my brain, and treating my child with the ultimate respect would win over. And it ended there.

Not a believer in hitting kids. To me it's a quick sign of failure on the parent's part. And hitting your own child? I can tell you what goes through your mind as you dish out the punishment..it's a total lack of control on your own part. And in any other instance in life, you'd wince when seeing your child in pain and yet there you are physically dishing it out. So totally not good. Spanking should've ended in the 70s along with terrible parents.

Probably won't be a popular opinion.

[rhsgolfer33]

I see no real problem with spanking as a disciplinary action in certain situations. I certainly don't think it is the responsibility of the government to tell me whether I can or cannot spank my child. Obviously it can cross the line to abuse if you're beating your child, but a standard spanking, IMO, isn't.

[jmann]

If I had children I would have no problem hitting them if they badly misbehave or be disrespectful. Especially if it meant they won't do it again. :)

[Ivan P]

If you smacked an adult in a store or at home, it would be considered assault. I think we have to ask: how are children different from adults in this respect? Are children not entitled to a number of human rights because they are unable to understand them? Or because they are unable to take responsibility over their actions? Parents have a duty of care over their kids, and that grants them leeway to intervene when their childrens' safety is at stake, but is smacking an intervention or an expression of a very skewed power relation between parent and child?

I think we also have to question whether children really "do not know any better" or "do not understand deferred gratification" or "only respond to instant pain-based correction".

Would you accept a nurse smacking an adult with learning difficulties in public or private in order to correct errant behaviour? What about teachers smacking pupils who step out of line? Or if corporal punishment is deemed acceptable, could it be used within the legal system to punish minors? What if a stranger smacked your child in order to avert some dangerous situation from transpiring? I am asking a lot of questions because I think that there are a lot of hidden assumptions.

I think that parents often smack children out of desperation, and lord knows that kids can be unruly and manipulative. However, fundamentally, I believe that using violence to correct behaviour in children is wrong and tantamount to assault. In more general terms, I think that violence begets violence. By smacking children, we are teaching them that violence is perfectly reasonable as long as you are on the powerful end of the relationship.

I don't, by any means, condone smacking a child. In fact, in the rare instance that I ever had to witness it, I've cringed and felt sorry for the kid (but that was years ago now anyway). But I've always seen it this way - parents mainly want a child to grow up and become accepted in society and, therefore, they must learn certain social abilities in order to succeed in this. Clearly a parent needs to 'steer' their child in the right direction - making them understand perfectly well when they've done something wrong.

There's a point in childhood where a parent can use threats or other tactics in order to combat this (for example, "if you don't do x and do y instead, you're not allowed to watch television for a fortnight, so that you learn your lesson"). Young children simply don't understand reasoning with a situation, mainly because that communication factor simply hasn't been established yet, therefore parents have to find another route in which they can demonstrate what's acceptable and what isn't. If this doesn't occur then there will be problems later down the track - the child will think they can get away with anything they can because there has been no upholding of discipline in the household. As I said above, young children simply cannot be reasoned with, leading to the parent having to find another outlet to get them to understand they're not doing the right thing. Of course, other 'punishments' could be used instead, but unfortunately a lot of parents are too lazy and just resort to something that can deal with it quickly, even if it's morally wrong.

In some circumstances it may be the one thing that ends up working. For example, where I work there is a lady that brings her 18-month-old toddler to work. I work in local government, so I think it's just not the right profession to be bringing a child in to work. On top of this, we have a massive office with many different departments (for example, finance, environment, administration, we have a library and medical facilities, etc), and the mother pretty much lets her run wild through the building. I have had to write countless letters to the State Library (the organisation that owns the books we have in our library here) having to try and explain why several of their books have been destroyed - when no one's looking she seriously sits their stripping books bare. And yet it's us other workers, not the mother, that are expected to deal with it. Not ONCE has she had to pay to replace an item that's been destroyed. The kid constantly screams, rips things off of pin-up boards, tipped a computer off a table and killed it, the mother gives her chocolate and she rubs it all over the walls. For five months the mother's office door had dried mashed banana all over the door handle because she simply couldn't be bothered cleaning up and telling her daughter to behave. And if she messes up too much, she just picks her up and says she's going home - and the boss expects me to clean up after her. And the boss himself, while really annoyed with the child, doesn't have the balls to tell the mother that it's not acceptable. Quite frankly, it's ********. In extreme circumstances like this, though, I think it may be the only thing to do, as simply telling her off hasn't worked.

Once again, though, I must say that I do not condone smacking a child.

[Abstract]

I see no real problem with spanking as a disciplinary action in certain situations. I certainly don't think it is the responsibility of the government to tell me whether I can or cannot spank my child. Obviously it can cross the line to abuse if you're beating your child, but a standard spanking, IMO, isn't.

I agree.

Personally, I wouldn't spank a child, but I do agree with you with regards to a 'standard' spanking, or at least the form that I have in mind.

[bruinsrme]

If I had children I would have no problem hitting them if they badly misbehave or be disrespectful. Especially if it meant they won't do it again. :)

Agree.
There is hitting/spanking fir behavior, safety, to get the attention of.

Then there is flat out beating.

Some people people can't differentiate between a beating and a spanking.
My dad would woop my ass so I thought but looking back they were spankings far from a beating

[Jaffa Cake]

No. I don't hit other people's kids either.

[rhsgolfer33]

I agree.

Personally, I wouldn't spank a child, but I do agree with you with regards to a 'standard' spanking, or at least the form that I have in mind.

I think we've got the same thing in mind. I'm not talking about using a paddle or belt, etc. or spanking your child many times successively. If you're doing it to leave a lasting physical injury you're going too far.

I think age comes into play in this issue as well. Spanking a very young child, who doesn't really grasp their actions is out of line. I recall being spanked when I was extremely poorly behaved and when the behavior last for an amount of time, but I don't think I was spanked until at least 4 or 5 and maybe not even until 6. I think if done properly it can be an effective form of discipline and help a child to understand and feel consequences for extremely poor behavior. It certainly shouldn't be used excessively or particularly often and it definitely should not be the only form of discipline used, but it can be an effective form of discipline for some children, it certainly was for me when I was a child.

[macjram]

I plan to lay a beat down.

[MegaMillions]

Interesting topic. I myself am viciously against the idea of spanking. I see it like this. Spanking a child because they "misbehaved" doesn't help you at all. It's violent, it's painful for the child, and it didn't help you understand WHY the child was doing what he was doing. What if children NEVER "misbehave" and we just need to learn to understand why they do what they do, and how we might have played a part in that?

I myself was raised with unconditional love, affection, understanding, autonomy, and respect. Not only was I never punished or spanked for anything, but because of this, I never did anything that would be considered even by authoritarian parents, to be worthy of a spanking. People would ask my parents "how do you get them to behave so well? How do you get them to sit silently through a two hour classical concert?" and my mom would always be somewhat at a loss for words. The response was usually something like "I loved them, nurtured them, and met their needs."

My mom has actually written a book on parenting, but I don't think it's appropriate for me to use this board as an advertising platform, so if anyone is interested they can PM me.

But in any case, I consider myself to be the living proof that spanking is totally unnecessary.

[jav6454]

I was raised in the Latin American culture where kids take many spankings in growing up. Many parents here do it as a way to correct unaccepted behavior; however, there are those parents (new ones mainly) that are adopting other means to teach. Nowadays, spanking has become more less harsh and more common to teach kids respect towards others and specially adults (in the past it was a beat down); rather than spanking for small problems.

I agree that there should be spanking. However, anything beyond what is needed (spanking wise) to teach a lesson is what I called barbaric.

Here, a kid can take a beating (that's a small word to use to describe it) if he/she doesn't do x thing well or forgets to do it.

[messedkid]

I am NOT advocating the beating of children.

I was hit/spanked as a child, and I believe I turned out better because of it.
When I see and talk to my friends, and even see other people's children these days, and how disrespectful and just outright obnoxious these kids can get in certain situations, I believe the only way to knock it out of them is a smack upside the head.

I'm not saying we should go UFC style on these kids, but children need to know how to behave in situations that call for a little quiet time, or when it is just disrespectful to throw a fit. If they misbehave, they need to learn that that is not going to be tolerated and need to learn the consequences.

I am NOT advocating the beating of children.
But when I do have children, I will most likely have to give them a quick and small slap on the bum or for instance smack their hand when they're about to do something they're not supposed to.

For instance, when I was younger (I'm 22 now) and in Kindergarten I used to pick my nose. Just shove a finger in my nose and dig for gold. My parents would smack my hand as soon as they notice I was going to pick, and guess what... I stopped picking my nose.

IMO some children crave discipline, it is the only way they learn. Was in a Burger King the other day, and this lady (I'm guessing late 20s - early 30s) was there with her son, ~4-5 years old. This kid was running around the building, screaming at the top of his lungs, because they didn't have the toy he wanted. WTF? The parents should step in, smack him upside the head, and tell him to sit down and be glad he even gets a toy.
When I go to work and listen to the new Dads I work with, all who have sons at home ages 1-5, who talk about how their sons do something stupid or wrong, and they send them on their little "Time-out" but they never learn from their mistakes... I have tried to give my opinion, but they all say, "oh, you know, they're at that terrible age. We acted the same way at that age".

Yeah, we were the same at that age, BUT WE GOT FREAKING SLAPPED!
If Time-out doesn't work for your kids...it doesn't and won't work! So long Time-out, find some other family to ********!
Time to try a new method of punishing your children.

I am NOT advocating the beating of children.

Long story short, I do not blame children for acting up in public places. I blame the parents. Parents need to let go of their fear of slapping their child once in a while to knock some sense into them.


PS. one again, I am NOT advocating the beating of children. I am talking about a simple, open handed smack on the bottom, back of the head, or across the hands. Parents with alcohol problems (or other emotional problems) who go all out on children is downright wrong, and IMO is what most people think when hitting or spanking your children comes up.
My parents were spanked when they were little.
Their parents were spanked.
Their parents were spanked.
I think their parents were fired out of a cannon into the sun. :confused:
But theis parents were spanked too, and they were all better, Authority Figure respecting people because of it.

[MegaMillions]

We are not Gods. We cannot decide for a child whether what they're doing is right, wrong, "acceptable," "not acceptable." Who do we think we are?

@messedkid, I used to pick my nose when I was little too, and my parents never stopped me. Apparently it's really healthy and boosts the immune system. You speak about your childhood with an unquestioned assumption that of course you should not have been picking your nose. That's how this all starts. Parents assuming that their kids shouldn't be doing what they're doing, and then the kids later believing that it's true that they shouldn't have been doing those things as a kid.

What i'm saying is, what kids do is what they're supposed to do, and if they do something totally outrageous or unacceptable, look at yourself to see how you taught him to behave that way. Spanking will not help.

[jav6454]

I am NOT advocating the beating of children.

... huge snip ...



Yes, I get that feeling. Down here in Latin America (Honduras more precise), younger parents are becoming like that. The whole Time-Out and let the kid scream/do what he/she wants routine. It's becoming that way because people have started to take up on... can you guess? No? Well, they are starting to see shows like Super Nanny.

It's gotten to a point where kids are no longer respectful and obedient. I am not saying every time a kid requires a smack. However, its most certain that it is needed as the whole Time-Out thing is not working.

[neonblue2]

Just do what my mum did with my sister one time.

While out shopping my sister (who was about three or four) threw a tantrum over a sparkly hat (those plastic ones that kids wear at birthdays). It was pretty much a full on fit. So my mum took her outside and just let her yell. She even egged her on, saying that our grandparents probably couldn't hear her yet, to make her embarrassed. It worked but not after they both learnt a lesson; don't scream loud and long enough to cough up blood because it's freaky.

On the topic of smacking/spanking/slapping kids, all I can say is that it depends on the child and their age. I was smacked on the bottom a few times when I was very young, as was my sister, but it never went further than that. It was usually one or two then I'd cry and then after a while I'd calm down. When I became more rational they tried more intellectual punishments like no TV and no video games. They worked extremely well.

Although they once threatened to take away all my toys but instead of trying to stop them when they started, I actually helped them. They weren't bluffing but it wasn't going to be much of a punishment if I was going to stick to my guns and had accepted the loss of my things as a small price for whatever I had done.

[AdamLikesMusic]

I typed up a big long post about this, but couldn't bring myself to hit submit.

Long story short - absolutely not. I remember the times my father would "discipline" me, and they were nothing short of abuse. I never want my kids to have such memories. (Even if I wasn't to "abuse" my kids, and "properly" physically punish them, whose to say they won't remember it as such? I don't want them to even have to think about it.)

For those of you who do, I'm curious, at what age (child's age) do you decide that physical punishment is no longer an appropriate punishment for wrong-doing?

[jav6454]

For those of you who do, I'm curious, at what age (child's age) do you decide that physical punishment is no longer appropriate?

I can see where you are coming from. I do not promote abuse also. Now, back to your question.

When will I decide when its no longer appropriate? Well, it will depend on the age and maturity level.

Long Story short - My parents stopped smacking/spanking me at age 15, but I was still immature, so to deal with me, they came and grounded me on the TV front, hanging with friends after school front, the video/computer games front. In short, they grounded me in ways that actually hurt more than smacking. I craved to go out and having that privilege taken away from me for a week or weeks was like being stabbed to me. I'd rather much endure the spanking than to loose my video games or permission to go out.

[Dagless]

Heh I thought this was going to be a joke thread at first.

I plan on spanking yes. I got in trouble a lot when I was a kid and it definitely made me behave. That and having my mouth washed out with soap. Bleh! I learned my lesson pretty quickly.
I mostly plan on emulating my parents. Spanking until 10, after that the gadgets get confiscated and groundings kick in up until 16, 17. Then I pray they'll be good on their own :o.

[edesignuk]

There are far too many douche bag kids that do exactly as they please because no one has ever told them no, and/or reinforced this with a good old slap.

Should kids be routinely beaten for every little thing? No.

Should they get a smack on the butt when they just won't knock it off? Probably.

[arkitect]

Well since I'm not going to be a parent — at least in this life time — I can't really answer the question directly.

I am not sure spanking/caning etc is the right way — although I do sometimes wish people would be less indulgent of their little preciousnesses™… and give them a few smacks about the bottom when they are running riot in Sainsburys pulling tins and boxes off shelves.

Certainly when I was a pre-teen I was spanked regularly by my parents — but certainly not beaten up or abused — and I most certainly deserved it. :o

My father caned me up until I was about 14 years old. So after that caning I turned round, thanked him(!:eek:!) and said: "Don't ever do that to me again."

And he didn't. :D

School on the other hand was a different matter.
I went to an all boys school where caning was the preferred manner to get results.
The headmaster, maths and Latin teachers were all firm believers in the power of inflicting pain and fear — although I always thought humiliation lay at the bottom (so to speak) of their sadism…

But for all their efforts, I turned out quite OK. ;)

[Mord]

I wasn't hit as a kid and I was never badly behaved, treat and talk to your kids like small adults and they'll act like adults, they'll just pick up your behaviours.

[steviem]

I remember as a child, the only times I would get a smack were when I did something dangerous towards myself or my little sister. For behaviour it would be a 'Time out' before we called them time outs over here. I'd be made to go to the downstairs bathroom for 5 minutes.

Also, when this happened, it wasn't the actual smack that hurt, it was that few seconds of suspense before it happened. The actual smack should never hurt, cause a mark or be permanent.

[messedkid]

We are not Gods. We cannot decide for a child whether what they're doing is right, wrong, "acceptable," "not acceptable." Who do we think we are?

@messedkid, I used to pick my nose when I was little too, and my parents never stopped me. Apparently it's really healthy and boosts the immune system. You speak about your childhood with an unquestioned assumption that of course you should not have been picking your nose. That's how this all starts. Parents assuming that their kids shouldn't be doing what they're doing, and then the kids later believing that it's true that they shouldn't have been doing those things as a kid.

What i'm saying is, what kids do is what they're supposed to do, and if they do something totally outrageous or unacceptable, look at yourself to see how you taught him to behave that way. Spanking will not help.

I used that example, not saying that picking my nose is bad (and honestly, i had no idea it's supposed to boost the immune system:confused:), but to show that kids will learn NOT to do something, if you punish them properly.

It could have been anything...like, painting on the walls, or tearing up carpet.:rolleyes: If everytime your child grabs a crayon or marker, and starts drawing on the walls, and he gets smacked, hopefully he'll catch on and think "Hmm.. everytime I do this, I get hurt. Maybe I should stop doing this, and I will stop getting hurt."

Kids are curious little buggers. Yes, they're going to get into trouble and try out new things. Thats just human nature. But we learn from our mistakes. Bad decisions lead to bad outcomes and consequences.

Like you say though, if he does something bad, the parents need to look at themselves to see how they taught him to act that way. I totally agree. But how do you correct that behaviour? Who knows how long this child has been acting this way until the parents finally get a clue and start to have second thoughts about their punishments.

I also agree with spanking to a certain age, where 9-10 years old seems a good age to stop, and switch over to confiscating possesions like toys or gadgets to get them to do things. In the teen years, the best punishments are groundings. Confiscating stuff by this point would be out, because by the teen years most young teens have bought their own toys/gadgets. I suggest cutting off services that you, the parents, pay. Example, let them keep the computer, but cut off internet access, and watch them squirm. muahaha!

Anyway, we can agree to disagree on this subject.
I will hand out a small spanking once in awhile if the occasion calls for it. Mind you I do not have children yet, and maybe my mind will change once I do have children. But this is my point of view right now, taking into account my own upbringing.

[edesignuk]

We are not Gods. We cannot decide for a child whether what they're doing is right, wrong, "acceptable," "not acceptable." Who do we think we are?That's just utter nonsense. You're not born knowing right and wrong, you're taught it. Of course it is for the parent to decide.

[niuniu]

I was hit by my dad as a kid and now our relationship is non-existant.

[iBlue]

I think there's an important difference between a spanking and being hit and abused. Somehow a slap on the hand or the behind has become taboo. I don't really understand that. Kids are all about the short-term, the knee-jerk reactions. Threats don't seem to work, especially as I have yet to see a parent follow through. All this "if you don't ___, we're leaving." which they never do, as if the kid cares about leaving a grocery store anyway.

I also don't think it's appropriate for the government to have a say in how you discipline your kids unless you are truly harming them. I don't think an occasional and well-earned spanking qualifies.

All I am seeing is children becoming more and more obnoxious in recent years and I am starting to wonder how well all this "positive discipline" malarkey is really working. Seems to me that not correcting misbehaving children is doing is teaching them not to fear respect their parents.

I witnessed the worst children I have ever seen in an airport a few days ago and one in particular, a 5-6-ish year old boy. I have never wanted to see a child spanked more in my entire life. Especially when he screamed (literally) at his mother and anyone else nearby, jumped onto my lap and almost knocked the phone out of my hand. Then he refused to get off of me (because he clearly wasn't listening to his mother) and I set him down and told him to stop it. I got slapped for it. I was shocked when his mother merely said "sorry" (and not very convincingly) and didn't even try to deal with him. Then later he jumped on me again, I have a little elbow sized bruise on my knee. He knocked my bags off the table, threw things, and carried on and on. His mother was a useless bitch and I worry for the future if this is what she thought was excusable behaviour in public.

Now I am not really the best authority on what is best for kids but I hardly think they should get to choose for themselves how to behave, that's what parents are for. Sort those little monsters out! Please.

[WinterMute]

Kids need discipline, they need to be taught boundaries and the difference between right and wrong, they need to learn to respect the rights of others and they need to learn self control.

Sadly the easy way for stupid people to discipline kids is to whack them, which simply re-enforces the lesson that might is right and you end up with a generation of kids who think happy slapping is just the coolest thing....:rolleyes:

I don't attribute all of our societies ills to the PC brigade stopping us beating our kids, as the cycle of violence that behaviour perpetuates has been with us for centuries, but I do think the bleating of those peculiar busybodies has made the job of turning kids into responsible adults much harder.

I don't beat my kid, but she gets some choice aikido locks applied when we're playing around, and she's seen me in competition. That works better than any amount of genuine slaps, and she understands that the application of force is a choice and a difficult one at that.

There's a bloke who live up my road who beats his sons regularly and often publicly, he's been arrested and charged on a couple of occasions, most of us have had cause to fall out with him over it. His sons are now a mini-crimewave in our area, they have learnt their lesson well, and will undoubtedly go on to make their daddy proud.

[maflynn]

We are not Gods. We cannot decide for a child whether what they're doing is right, wrong, "acceptable," "not acceptable." Who do we think we are?

spoken like a non-parent

Who do I think I am? A parent. Giving a child no guidelines no structure no discipline is going to raise up an animal. They don't know the difference of right and wrong and its a parent's job to raise up a child knowing these and expecting them to be able to behave in society as well.

For the record I do spank my kids when the need arises. Say for instance daughter decides to run across the street alone w/o holding my hand and of course not looking (she's 3). Do you think its wise for her to find out that's wrong by getting struck by a car???

I choose to instill in her that there are consequences to her actions and if she disobeys me and/or threatens her safety she will be spanked (a couple of swats on the bum). I'd rather inflict a small amount of discomfort then let her get killed or seriously injured.

The same goes with playing in the kitchen and reaching for a pot of boiling water. Non parents may say just tell the child to stay out, or not to touch it or try to explain to a 2 or 3 year old the concept of boiling water causes burns. Parents realize that kids do what the they want but they do not have the life experience, i.e., not knowing a pot of boiling water = hot.

They need to be taught what is right and wrong. As my daughters get old enough, morals will also be instructed in them, i.e., not stealing. I don't always spank and I use other methods of punishment, mostly time outs, but in all cases I'm instructing my kids to listen to me, respect me, my wife and to realize that there are consequences to one's actions.

[ButtUglyJeff]

The kids get a spanking every once in a while. The threat of a spanking works 90% or more of the time. I have three kids, and if I dole out one a month, that's alot. Time Outs aren't as effective as often touted.

I am against public smacking of kids. I've never wanted to be the cause of a very embarrassing / uncomfortable situation.

Oh, manual labor works much better then spankings. ;)

[leekohler]

There are far too many douche bag kids that do exactly as they please because no one has ever told them no, and/or reinforced this with a good old slap.

Should kids be routinely beaten for every little thing? No.

Should they get a smack on the butt when they just won't knock it off? Probably.

Yep. I see the results of lack of discipline all the time. When local store/restaurant owners have to put up signs telling people to control their kids or they will be asked to leave, something has gone very wrong indeed.

[jessica.]

I hit 'em upside the head every single time I don't get my way.

...I'm far too young and gay to have kids... :p

I LOL'ed at this.

I don't have children but if I did I would not hit them. I've come close to smacking my nephew once but I refrained because I don't believe the message sent to a child by hitting them is the one you want them to grow up on.

[redwarrior]

I do not hit my children, but I do spank them. There is a huge difference in hitting and spanking.

You can not reason with a child. (Of course, this depends on the age of the child.) You teach them that disobedience/disrespect is painful. That way, when they get older, they don't get hit much harder by life.

I think it's also important to mention that I can count on one hand the number of times I have had to spank each of them.

[abijnk]

I do not hit my children, but I do spank them. There is a huge difference in hitting and spanking.

You can not reason with a child. (Of course, this depends on the age of the child.) You teach them that disobedience/disrespect is painful. That way, when they get older, they don't get hit much harder by life.

I think it's also important to mention that I can count on one hand the number of times I have had to spank each of them.

Bingo. This thread title is such a loaded question, spanking and hitting are very different.

I was spanked as a child when I was unruly, and remember that it was a good deterrent. As such, I will use spanking when necessary.

[JNB]

No, but I do spank the parents that don't. :rolleyes:

Children are not "little adults." They need to understand limits and consequences early and firmly, to ensure the behavior being corrected doesn't continue and cause them greater harm in the future. Not through abuse, but also not through "talking to them." A mild spanking early can prevent a major calamity later, because a three-year old simply cannot comprehend what a 3,000-pound car moving at 30 miles an hour will do to them; they do understand Mom or Dad paddling them when they step off the curb unattended.

Personally, I've had quite enough of the syndrome-riddled, drug-addled, new-agey "parenting" to last the rest of my life. Humankind has not changed all that much in the last 50 years compared to the previous 500 or 5,000 or 50,000, so why has it suddenly become so necessary to create a new paradigm of child-rearing?

Thinking that you can reason with a creature not yet fully capable of it is delusional, irresponsible, and quite possibly dangerous. Are we that so full of ourselves to think we're all that enlightened? The level of BS many parents have bought into is simply appalling, and I see the results of that daily. This is not to say that children can't be successfully raised "spank-free," but that takes better parenting than most folks are honestly capable of.

It takes a village to raise a child, and only a few village idiots to make a complete hash of it.

[ian.maffett]

Respect is gained from fear and fear alone - it's not a natural instinct to care for those who tell you what to do. That being said, I have probably spanked (1 hand slap on the ass) my 5yr old daughter ~3 times. No matter what the most diligent person says - it IS necessary once in a while when the time / need is right. Everyone has they're opinion - and that's all it is. I was spanked (with a belt) a few times as I grew up and I RESPECT my father for it. This all spawned as fear for having it reoccur and knowing he wasn't going to be walked on. The fact that people are too naive to discipline their children properly is why the youth of our society are such irresponsible, disrespectful individuals. Group together a few of them and you get a real bunch of Jerks that many citizens and especially the elderly literally fear. That's not right in our society. I feel that this all came from kids having kids and not knowing how to raise them - they either beat them too much or not enough. There is always a Yin to the Yang. Always.

[Sun Baked]

Don't worry, when you grow up they use lawyers, and the rest of the inmate population, to provide the proper spankings for your actions.

[ian.maffett]

Kids need discipline, they need to be taught boundaries and the difference between right and wrong, they need to learn to respect the rights of others and they need to learn self control.

Sadly the easy way for stupid people to discipline kids is to whack them, which simply re-enforces the lesson that might is right and you end up with a generation of kids who think happy slapping is just the coolest thing....:rolleyes:

I don't attribute all of our societies ills to the PC brigade stopping us beating our kids, as the cycle of violence that behaviour perpetuates has been with us for centuries, but I do think the bleating of those peculiar busybodies has made the job of turning kids into responsible adults much harder.

I don't beat my kid, but she gets some choice aikido locks applied when we're playing around, and she's seen me in competition. That works better than any amount of genuine slaps, and she understands that the application of force is a choice and a difficult one at that.

There's a bloke who live up my road who beats his sons regularly and often publicly, he's been arrested and charged on a couple of occasions, most of us have had cause to fall out with him over it. His sons are now a mini-crimewave in our area, they have learnt their lesson well, and will undoubtedly go on to make their daddy proud.

Very cool - not everyone has such talent, however... I would use similar tactics, I think. I have a friend with 3 sons - they do pushups, laps around the house, etc. all weather / surrounding permitted. This is a GREAT way to discipline IMO (it's what our Military does, right?) and it also keeps them fit - it's a win - win, really.

[ian.maffett]

No, but I do spank the parents that don't. :rolleyes:

Children are not "little adults." They need to understand limits and consequences early and firmly, to ensure the behavior being corrected doesn't continue and cause them greater harm in the future. Not through abuse, but also not through "talking to them." A mild spanking early can prevent a major calamity later, because a three-year old simply cannot comprehend what a 3,000-pound car moving at 30 miles an hour will do to them; they do understand Mom or Dad paddling them when they step off the curb unattended.

Personally, I've had quite enough of the syndrome-riddled, drug-addled, new-agey "parenting" to last the rest of my life. Humankind has not changed all that much in the last 50 years compared to the previous 500 or 5,000 or 50,000, so why has it suddenly become so necessary to create a new paradigm of child-rearing?

Thinking that you can reason with a creature not yet fully capable of it is delusional, irresponsible, and quite possibly dangerous. Are we that so full of ourselves to think we're all that enlightened? The level of BS many parents have bought into is simply appalling, and I see the results of that daily. This is not to say that children can't be successfully raised "spank-free," but that takes better parenting than most folks are honestly capable of.

It takes a village to raise a child, and only a few village idiots to make a complete hash of it.

Seconded. I like your view. This issue is going to get heated, I can see that already. LoL.

[Unspoken Demise]

I don't have kids, but I want them. I will never hit them. Period. If I ever feel the urge, I'll just walk away and come back. I'd have to remember that it is/ these are my child/children, and I love them. Hitting them wont show that.

Worst case senario? I'll lock them in a cage. My girlfriend opposes this practice, but I think it works. I'm kidding of course.

Ill just put a muzzle on them to stop the crying...haha...no really. I'm not kidding.

[Abstract]

It's funny, because spanking a child for misbehaving puts a bit of fear in them, and some people think that fear is the wrong technique to teach a child right from wrong. In a way, I agree.


However, it's basically what they do in places like the army, and lots of people go into the army and walk out as better, more disciplined people. Hell, there are even bootcamps for people like that. In the army, if you do something out of line, you get punished. Sure, it's not a physical beating. You'll just be told to do something horrible until you puke. :p Or perhaps it's just some nasty work that nobody would volunteer to do.

Perhaps people in the army shouldn't be punished when they can't follow orders, or don't do like the other soldiers. They should just get told to keep up. It's discussed with them. There's nothing wrong with just being civil, and talking things through, right? ;)

Like JNB said, when they're at an age where they're too young to listen to you and think, "You know, you certainly raise an excellent point, and I'm sorry", it's OK to spank your kids. ;) They really don't know enough to understand your reasoning yet, and if fear gets them through the first few years before the logic kicks in, I think it's OK.

[Sun Baked]

Perhaps people in the army shouldn't be punished when they can't follow orders, or don't do like the other soldiers. They should just get told to keep up nicely. There's nothing wrong with just being civil, and talking things through, right? ;)

Works, just send the troops out with an armload of make nice pamphlets, and I'm quite sure they will be as well received as a group of enemy Jehova's Witnesses.

[joro]

I definitely would once my wife and I have kids; however, I think there is a fine line between spanking and beating. I also think that spanking in public is inappropriate but I know that’s not a commonly held belief because people do it all the time! ;)

[heehee]

I was spanked when I was a kid, I don't think there is anything wrong with that, I probably deserved it. :D

When I have kids, my fiancee will probably be the one to spank our kid first. That's a good thing, I can be the good guy. :p:D

[maflynn]

I was spanked when I was a kid, I don't think there is anything wrong with that, I probably deserved it. :D

Its interesting how times have changed,
I went to parochial school as a kid and if I came home and complained to my mother that the nun hit me. Unlike today where she'd call a lawyer and sue, she'd ask me what I did to deserve getting it, and then I'd get hit again.

[samiwas]

Its interesting how times have changed,
I went to parochial school as a kid and if I came home and complained to my mother that the nun hit me. Unlike today where she'd call a lawyer and sue, she'd ask me what I did to deserve getting it, and then I'd get hit again.

Exactly the way I was raised, and if I do say so myself, I'm one of the more mature and least-self-absorbed people I've known. In my school, from day one, there were consequences for actions. If you got a smack from a teacher, the parents most likely gave you another one for doing whatever you did once they found out; they didn't call in their bank of lawyers. And in that world, word got around quick, so few kids got away with much.

I was raised with a spanking when I did wrong. But I was a very well-behaved kid, so it didn't happen often. Of course there is much more to parenting and discipline than just spanking.

I do see a lot of people who keep saying they would never "beat" their child. Come on. So many people seem to equate a small smack on the butt the same as taking a fist to a child's jaw. A spanking is not beating. A well-intentioned spank does not leave a mark or cause any physical trauma. I do not condone any sort of belt, paddle, whip, cane, etc...no way. An open-handed smack to the butt will do no physical damage whatsoever and I really do doubt any sort of emotional scarring.

This new age of complete non-discipline is really starting to wear on me and much of the world as a whole. Kids are growing up knowing that there is little to no real consequence for their actions other than someone saying "No! Bad!" or putting them on "time out". So they act even further to see if they can get a rise out of someone. They get ignored, or another "No! I said bad!" So they go even further, constantly testing the limits of how far they can go before hell breaks loose. Their parents don't do anything to them, so they start it with teachers, employers, whoever gets in their way.

They grow up thinking that no one can or will tell them what to do, and I've seen the results. I see much more disrespect for authority these days than when I was a child. Maybe it's just the area I grew up in, but I just did not see kids, even teens, blatantly disrespecting those in an authority position for no reason other than "because I can". They know that the person cannot do anything to them, so they just continue with this behavior. Of course there were the few "bad kids", but these days it seems like MOST of the kids act this way (probably not true, but it just seems that way).

So yeah, what was I talking about...oh yeah. I think minor spanking is a perfectly fine tool in the arsenal of parenting. Like I said before, it is NOT the same as hitting your child in the face, beating them across the back with a cane, or burning their hand with an iron. I also disagree with someone who said spanking was fine up until 8-9. I think 5-6 should be the end of it. After that, they can start to reason and learn other consequences.

OK, flame away.

[leekohler]

Exactly the way I was raised, and if I do say so myself, I'm one of the more mature and least-self-absorbed people I've known. In my school, from day one, there were consequences for actions. If you got a smack from a teacher, the parents most likely gave you another one for doing whatever you did once they found out; they didn't call in their bank of lawyers. And in that world, word got around quick, so few kids got away with much.

I was raised with a spanking when I did wrong. But I was a very well-behaved kid, so it didn't happen often. Of course there is much more to parenting and discipline than just spanking.

I do see a lot of people who keep saying they would never "beat" their child. Come on. So many people seem to equate a small smack on the butt the same as taking a fist to a child's jaw. A spanking is not beating. A well-intentioned spank does not leave a mark or cause any physical trauma. I do not condone any sort of belt, paddle, whip, cane, etc...no way. An open-handed smack to the butt will do no physical damage whatsoever and I really do doubt any sort of emotional scarring.

This new age of complete non-discipline is really starting to wear on me and much of the world as a whole. Kids are growing up knowing that there is little to no real consequence for their actions other than someone saying "No! Bad!" or putting them on "time out". So they act even further to see if they can get a rise out of someone. They get ignored, or another "No! I said bad!" So they go even further, constantly testing the limits of how far they can go before hell breaks loose. Their parents don't do anything to them, so they start it with teachers, employers, whoever gets in their way.

They grow up thinking that no one can or will tell them what to do, and I've seen the results. I see much more disrespect for authority these days than when I was a child. Maybe it's just the area I grew up in, but I just did not see kids, even teens, blatantly disrespecting those in an authority position for no reason other than "because I can". They know that the person cannot do anything to them, so they just continue with this behavior. Of course there were the few "bad kids", but these days it seems like MOST of the kids act this way (probably not true, but it just seems that way).

So yeah, what was I talking about...oh yeah. I think minor spanking is a perfectly fine tool in the arsenal of parenting. Like I said before, it is NOT the same as hitting your child in the face, beating them across the back with a cane, or burning their hand with an iron. I also disagree with someone who said spanking was fine up until 8-9. I think 5-6 should be the end of it. After that, they can start to reason and learn other consequences.

OK, flame away.

No flaming. I don't think you said anything wrong. Except I think up to 8-9 is fine.

[InvalidUserID]

Hit as in punch, kick or otherwise seriously harm my kids? No.

But physically discipline them (write slap, buttom spanking, etc)when they are out of line? Yes.

I think it ends when the kid is old enough to understand the circumstances and the whole action/consequence deal.

I don't know how many times I've seen a child acting out because they weren't getting their way and the parent simply ignores them or tries to shoosh them and the misbehavior continues.

IMO, it is the parents job to teach the child right from wrong and how to behave. Of course, a child will listen until it conflicts with their own wants and desires. It is also the parents job to do what is right for the child which isn't always what they want. Some examples that come to mind are a child staying up late to watch TV when they need their rest and a child wanting fast food when they have already eaten some earlier.

So, while I would prefer not to have to resort to spanking, if that is what is needed, so be it. And, just thought I'd mention that I have no problem with parents disciplining their children in public, handle your business. I do have a problem with parents who let their children run wild and disturb others.

[uberamd]

I am NOT advocating the beating of children.

I was hit/spanked as a child, and I believe I turned out better because of it.
When I see and talk to my friends, and even see other people's children these days, and how disrespectful and just outright obnoxious these kids can get in certain situations, I believe the only way to knock it out of them is a smack upside the head.

I'm not saying we should go UFC style on these kids, but children need to know how to behave in situations that call for a little quiet time, or when it is just disrespectful to throw a fit. If they misbehave, they need to learn that that is not going to be tolerated and need to learn the consequences.

I am NOT advocating the beating of children.


Bingo. I am 21, I was spanked as a kid (or pinched sometimes), and I deserved it. Guess what, I turned out quite well if I may say so myself. These people who are saying "Would you hit an adult? Why hit a kid then?" are ENTIRELY missing the point. I worked with kids for a summer once, of all ages (preschool to middle school) and guess what, they NEED more discipline. So many of them walked ALL over their parents, it was sickening. And that lack of respect for their parents translated directly into a lack of respect for me and the other park leaders. Not to mention when you look at some of these slime-balls in our school systems who talk back to teachers constantly and know teachers can do nothing about it. Society is falling fast and some of this has to do with the fact that if you hit a kid for discipline, you can get sued. Its ********** stupid.

I constantly hear that kids were much more respectful years back (especially older people say this), and from what I have seen that is entirely true. Why the change? Now if you hit a kid for misbehaving you can have your kid taken away. What is this world coming to? Kids NEED punishment, and since vocal stuff doesn't work, maybe some light physical punishment will.

Parents are treated like doormats for their kids, and I for one refuse to be a parent like that.

[Diane2boys]

[

[Unspoken Demise]

you'd be surprised how things will change when you actually have kids.....

Yeah, I don't see "become an abusive person that would rather use violence instead of words and time outs and grounding" happening.

[leekohler]

Yeah, I don't see "become an abusive person that would rather use violence instead of words and time outs and grounding" happening.

Spanking kids is hardly becoming an abusive person.

[Unspoken Demise]

Spanking kids is hardly becoming an abusive person.
It lead to worse violence when it came to my father. :( I'd rather not do the same for my children.

[uberamd]

Yeah, I don't see "become an abusive person that would rather use violence instead of words and time outs and grounding" happening.

Oh god, are you serious? You have no idea what you are talking about. You cannot vocally reason with a lot of kids (trust me, I have worked with kids, and some of them NEVER listen no matter what you do with words and we are not allowed to lay a hand on them). Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. But go ahead, be that doormat of a parent who tries to use words to solve every conflict with their kids and lets see how well they listen to you.

Kid: I hate you dad I'm going to go play with Timmy
You: No, you're grounded, you can't leave
Kid: Oh yeah, what are you going to do about it?
You: Use words and try to calmly reason with you.
Kid: *leaves, laughing at you*

[Unspoken Demise]

Oh god, are you serious? You have no idea what you are talking about. You cannot vocally reason with a lot of kids (trust me, I have worked with kids, and some of them NEVER listen no matter what you do). Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. But go ahead, be that doormat of a parent who tries to use words to solve every conflict with their kids and lets see how well they listen to you.

Kid: I hate you dad I'm going to go play with Timmy
You: No, you're grounded, you can't leave
Kid: Oh yeah, what are you going to do about it?
You: Use words and try to calmly reason with you.
Kid: *leaves, laughing at you*

Lock it in its room and lock the windows. Its not that hard.

Also, my previous post explains my reasoning. Take it or leave it. Enjoy your children resenting you. Obviously I should strike my child for not agreeing with me.

Also, great logic, since you cant hit those kids, hit your own because you can, instead of showing the same restraint. Great kids yours will become.

[iBlue]

It lead to worse violence when it came to my father. :( I'd rather not do the same for my children.

So because your dad couldn't stay with just the spankings, every parent is going to go nuts about it? Not everyone who has alcohol becomes an alcoholic either, you know.

[leekohler]

It lead to worse violence when it came to my father. :( I'd rather not do the same for my children.

It didn't with either of my parents. I got spanked as a kid. Sounds like your Dad had other problems- sorry to hear.

[Unspoken Demise]

So because your dad couldn't stay with just the spankings, every parent is going to go nuts about it? Not everyone who has alcohol becomes an alcoholic either, you know.


I never said you should believe what I believe did I? ;)

[Melrose]

I think it's entirely a good idea to spank your children.

The amount and type of spanking though greatly depends on each child. I needed fewer spankings than my brother - being clobbered (disciplinarily) was a much better way to reach him and get the point across. When I was little I was more 'sensitive' (if that makes sense) and a very stern talking-to or slap was enough to get me crying. Spanking didn't work as effectively with me as other forms of punishment.

Spanking you kids is hardly abusive. Granted, lashing out or punching/kicking/gouging/etc would qualify as such but a slap in the face for mouthing off or taking the belt to their backside for major offenses is hardly abusive. But then again, it depends on the child. It is the rare child that doesn't at some point need their rear end clobbered,

[Diane2boys]

[...

[redwarrior]

We should never hit our children when we are angry with them. We spank them because we love them and want to teach them. One is abuse, another is training. Like I said before, two totally different things.

[uberamd]

Lock it in its room and lock the windows. Its not that hard.

Also, my previous post explains my reasoning. Take it or leave it. Enjoy your children resenting you. Obviously I should strike my child for not agreeing with me.

My parents spanked and pinched me and I love them both very much, so you are already down on that one.

Again, as I explained (from a standpoint of someone who has had to deal with kids at work for an entire summer), those parents who used only words with their kids were walked all over. They had no respect for adults, at all. The parents that we knew had strict disciplinary policies and were willing to whack their kid upside the back of the head for mouthing off to us were the kids that were perfect angles for the rest of the summer.

Do what you want with your kids, but your idea of locking them in their room is worse than a spanking if you ask me.

[leekohler]

Lock it in its room and lock the windows. Its not that hard.


Kid start breaking lamps and other things in the room after you lock him/her in it. Now what do you do?

[anjinha]

Just because someone doesn't want to spank their kids doesn't mean they won't discipline them and just let them do everything they want.

Similarly, spanking doesn't guaranty good behavior. I was never spanked and I turned really well behaved. My best friend growing up was spanked when she misbehaved and she continued misbehaving...

I'm not saying I don't agree with spanking just that spanking also won't guaranty good behavior. Also just because we see lots of kids misbehaving you can't know for sure they're like that because their parents don't spank them, but you do know that they don't discipline them, which is different.

Kids do need discipline. Whether that means spanking them and whether that will work is not really black and white.

[iBlue]

I never said you should believe what I believe did I? ;)
No but you implied that spanking is like a gateway drug to abuse and I am saying that isn't the case for people who are not abusive.

I also have to take what you say with a grain of salt because you cannot seriously know what you will do. Over the years I am learning to never say never.

[Unspoken Demise]

It didn't with either of my parents. I got spanked as a kid. Sounds like your Dad had other problems- sorry to hear.
Its fine. He grown as a person and I blacked a lot of it out. My mom told me about what he did a few months ago. I'm 19 so I can handle it. Haha. Hes a great guy, but in my childhood he wasnt a great dad. Now he's fantastic and one of my best friends. We all learn from our mistakes.

I'm not talking about abusing a child, I am speaking of teaching and discipline. There is a big difference, and it isn't about creating fear, it is about stopping something from bad happening in the future.

I can't tell you all the stories about incorrigible juveniles I know.......

and from my own experience as a parent, it isn't "evil" in some cases it is a necessity.......

I can appreciate your point. I really can. I just will always seek the route that doesnt involve a spanking. If it comes to that, I'll just let my wife do it.

We should never hit our children when we are angry with them. We spank them because we love them and want to teach them. One is abuse, another is training. Like I said before, two totally different things.

This I agree with most. Training is one thing, anger hitting is another, and I fear that spanking leads to anger hitting. It worked when I spanked them, and they stopped. I dont have time to do a formal spanking, so I hit them across the side of the head once. It leads down a bad path.
My parents spanked and pinched me and I love them both very much, so you are already down on that one.

Again, as I explained (from a standpoint of someone who has had to deal with kids at work for an entire summer), those parents who used only words with their kids were walked all over. They had no respect for adults, at all. The parents that we knew had strict disciplinary policies and were willing to whack their kid upside the back of the head for mouthing off to us were the kids that were perfect angles for the rest of the summer.

Do what you want with your kids, but your idea of locking them in their room is worse than a spanking if you ask me.

I didnt say for hours or without food. I meant as a time out. It wouldnt be like a prison. However, I see your point, and agree that discipline is the answer, I just hope most will seek the non-abusive way before the "whacking their kid upside the back of their head."

Kid start breaking lamps and other things in the room after you lock him/her in it. Now what do you do?

Hmm. Good point. I guess they dont have light in their room then. :p

No but you implied that spanking is like a gateway drug to abuse and I am saying that isn't the case for people who are not abusive.

I also have to take what you say with a grain of salt because you cannot seriously know what you will do. Over the years I am learning to never say never.

Very true. I have no idea the parent I will be. And I do not condemn people who discipline though spankings. I have an idea of the father I'll be and hitting and spankings isnt in that idea. However that could change, and I see your point.

[grapes911]

I don't have kids, but I want them. I will never hit them. Period. If I ever feel the urge, I'll just walk away and come back. I'd have to remember that it is/ these are my child/children, and I love them. Hitting them wont show that.

Both my sister and I were small terrors as children. My sister was worse than me. Just one example of when we got hit: When my sister was about 5 or so, we were in a department store and she started pulling all the clothing off the racks. My mom hit her and she stopped. Can you imagine if my mom walked away? My sister would have just kept at it until everything was on the floor.

Walking away is a good way to release your pressure. Its better to release that pressure by walking away than by beating the child. You should never hit your children when you are mad enough that you have to walk away, because you never know where that will lead.

On the other hand, a smack is not for you. Rather it is to enforce good behavior.

I think you need to understand the differences between a smack for reenforcement vs abuse for a parent's release of anger.

I'm not advocating you personally to to hit your children, because frankly a parent has to raise their kids in a way that they can look themselves in the mirror each day. That is different for each parent.

I could not look myself in the mirror if my children act as animals and I don't stop it and teach them respect. If timeouts and such work, then so be it and I'll go that route. If not, I'll have to problem smacking my children to get my message across.

[uberamd]

I remember back when I would get spanked I would say "I am never going to do this to my kids when I grow up, *crrrrryyyyyyyy*". My parents would say to me, "Just wait until you have kids of your own." Come to think about it, my views changed quickly now that I am growing up, and I don't even have kids. But I get what they are saying, it is *impossible* for non-parents like myself to accurately comment on this. Impossible.

[Peterkro]

Just saying:

Philip Larkin - This Be The Verse

They ***** you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were f*cked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

[heehee]

Russell Peters- Beating Your Kids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn5jlrxcpkI) :D

[Abstract]

It lead to worse violence when it came to my father. :( I'd rather not do the same for my children.

Then your father had issues with anger and controlling himself.


That is not the fault of spanking, and beginning to spank you did not lead to increased violence on his part.


Perhaps we all have a slightly different definition of "spanking", but ignoring the smaller differences, what most of us are agreeing on is that spanking is like "controlled" hitting. That may sound like an oxymoron to some, but I don't believe it is. As a parent, you're not hitting because you don't know how else to control your child's behaviour. You know that this is just a temporary means to instill some sense of right from wrong, just like how you'll talk to him about it later when he/she is old enough to understand.




Kid: I hate you dad I'm going to go play with Timmy
You: No, you're grounded, you can't leave
Kid: Oh yeah, what are you going to do about it?
You: Use words and try to calmly reason with you.
Kid: *leaves, laughing at you*

Lock it in its room and lock the windows. Its not that hard.


So even light spanking isn't OK, but locking him in his room like a prisoner is an acceptable means to get your point across to your child? :confused:

Don't get me wrong. I'd be willing to do both, probably until the age of 6-8 (depends on the child in question, I believe). I just find it strange that you're against even a slight amount of "violence", and yet imprisoning him/her is not against your beliefs, because for most anti-spanking people, talking sensibly to a child is the only way.

[Diane2boys]

[

[Rodimus Prime]

well my view on it is spanking is not hitting. It is very different and I think spanking should be used while the kids are younger.
Kids are not little adults. they do not have the ability to reason because our brains at that age are not developed enough.

Spanking works really well because of basic animal instinct. that instinct is PAIN = BAD. No real reasoning required. Other types of punishments like time out and things like that require reasoning ability spanking really does not.

It gets very quick results and pain ways it is nothing more than a quick sting and it gets the point across very well.

As for walking away from a kid the only time I see myself ever doing that when I have my own is if I feel myself losing my tempter and getting close to crossing that line. If I feel myself starting to loose control I will just walk away and cool off but that is a different matter

[Blue Velvet]

What's one of the core messages we send to children when we spank them? It's this:

Change your behaviour or I will hurt you.

I'm not sure that it's helpful or even demonstrates authority and garners respect. Too many seem to use it as first resort of expediency, which seems like an admission of parenting failure to me. Kids need good role models first, because they're born imitators.

As for all the people in this thread complaining about the kids of today, that's been a perpetual complaint down the millennia. This discussion is as old as the ages:

Do not train a child to learn by force or harshness; but direct them to it by what amuses their minds, so that you may be better able to discover with accuracy the peculiar bent of the genius of each.
— Plato

Finally, you don't have to be a parent to have a valid view of parenting. We have friends and relatives, we have nieces and nephews, we see what goes on at home and in public spaces... and also, we were all children once.

Philip Larkin - This Be The Verse

True. ;)

[iShater]

While it will be a hard thing to do, I think spanking is an acceptable last punishment.

Hitting and spanking are different things.


I recall my spankings when I did something really bad to this day, and to this day I agree 100% with it. :p

[MegaMillions]

I wasn't hit as a kid and I was never badly behaved, treat and talk to your kids like small adults and they'll act like adults, they'll just pick up your behaviours.

Amen.

[MegaMillions]

<snip>.

Wow. The amount of sad in this post makes my eyes water. Children can't do what they want to do and grow naturally into who they really are? Adults get to enforce upon them some ridiculous society-encouraged "norms" that mess with their natural growth and emotional freedom? Holy crap. Please don't breed.

What you and several other people in this discussion don't understand is that there is always a REASON that the child is doing what they're doing. 90% of the stuff that you think they shouldn't be doing, is not a problem at all. And that 10% that you do have to change, you don't change it by spanking! You change it by going toward the child, by learning how to understand why he is doing what he's doing, and then figure out what need wasn't getting met, and meet that need. Do you think that if a kid is picking his nose at the age of 5 that he'll still be doing it at age 25?

Why would you let a baby wear a diaper? Wouldn't you expect him to learn not to poop his pants already?

Why don't you spank the child for not being able to walk before the age of one?

This ideology, that what kids are doing is "wrong" when in fact most of this "wrong" behavior is just part of their natural growth, is so tragic.

[edesignuk]

Wow. The amount of sad in this post makes my eyes water. Children can't do what they want to do and grow naturally into who they really are? Adults get to enforce upon them some ridiculous society-encouraged "norms" that mess with their natural growth and emotional freedom? Holy crap. Please don't breed.You said...
We are not Gods. We cannot decide for a child whether what they're doing is right, wrong, "acceptable," "not acceptable." Who do we think we are?As a parent it is absolutely your place to guide them on acceptable behaviour. "who they really are" might be a complete dick head if parents aren't there to let them know when they're being a jerk.

That's my view anyway. I'm not a parent and don't plan on being one. Sure your mum knows everything though :rolleyes:

[Rodimus Prime]

What's one of the core messages we send to children when we spank them? It's this:

Change your behaviour or I will hurt you.

I'm not sure that it's helpful or even demonstrates authority and garners respect. Too many seem to use it as first resort of expediency, which seems like an admission of parenting failure to me. Kids need good role models first, because they're born imitators.



See the problem with that logic is it requires the kids to have higher reasoning abilities for a lot of punishments. Spanking kids works on one of the lowest levels of reasoning that pain = bad. I do action X = it hurts so action X is bad.

Spankings is one of those things that I think should be using sparingly but it also depends on the kid. After a few just the threat of it gets them to correct their actions.

Spankings to me does not change the view of the parents being a good role model. for many parents spanking is one of the hardest things for them to do to their kids and it pains them to do it.

For me I think spanking goes to a basic instinct of pain = bad. So action X is bad because of the pain it brings.
I never view my parents an these walking enforcers but a loving parents. My dad I will admit was scarier than my mom but he had about a 100 lb on her and over a 1' taller. He was and still is a big man. Add in the fact he has a deeper voice and was more likely to raise it work very well installing a healthy does of fear. Now he only spanked me a handful of times and my mom I know had a higher count and honestly I think my mom's hurt more but my dad being bigger than her allowed them to use that as a threat. My mom would just THREATEN to have my dad spank me and wow did I change and like I said he is very tall, 6'6" and was bout 230 and that 2when I have my own kids I will never carry the same amount of a threat in just my size because I am only 6'4" and 150 lb, and fine boned. Removes a lot of the power of the ah with smaller size.

[MegaMillions]

You said...
As a parent it is absolutely your place to guide them on acceptable behaviour. "who they really are" might be a complete dick head if parents aren't there to let them know when they're being a jerk.

That's my view anyway. I'm not a parent and don't plan on being one. Sure your mum knows everything though :rolleyes:

No i'm sorry, but you're wrong. No child is a dick head by nature. They only behave like a dick when they are treated like a dick. Me and thousands of other kids are living proof of this.

And guiding your child is very different from smothering them or telling them that what they're doing is wrong.

[iBlue]

^ BS. Some kids are born difficult. Not everything is a result of nurture. This would be why nature vs nurture debates are so heated. Both matter and sometimes neither matter.


What's one of the core messages we send to children when we spank them? It's this:

Change your behaviour or I will hurt you.

I'm not sure that it's helpful or even demonstrates authority and garners respect. Too many seem to use it as first resort of expediency, which seems like an admission of parenting failure to me. Kids need good role models first, because they're born imitators.

..

Finally, you don't have to be a parent to have a valid view of parenting. We have friends and relatives, we have nieces and nephews, we see what goes on at home and in public spaces... and also, we were all children once.

I don't think that's really the core message. I think the core message is consequence. Such as not slacking off at work so as not to get fired. Consequence is a powerful motivator.

I think spanking as a first resort is appalling but in some circumstances, it is what works. Some kids are just difficult and others may or may not ever need that brand of discipline. There is no set guideline which can apply to everyone/every child.

I also think that this is a topic which one cannot fully comprehend unless they themselves have had a child. Ask any parent, it is different when it's your child, your responsibility. I'm not saying that the opinions of those who haven't had children themselves don't have validity, but it really seems to be one of those situations where experience makes a huge difference.

[sushi]

We should never hit our children when we are angry with them.
Yep.

We spank them because we love them and want to teach them.
And if the truth were known, spanking your child hurts you more than them. But you do it to teach them a lesson.

As a parent you must set boundaries that your children know and respect. It isn't easy doing this nor setting the example.

[agkm800]

I believe a good honest spanking benefits a kid. But, never with a belt please. And, never with hands either. I think it would be a good way to discipline kids' bad behaviors with a dedicated small stick when needed and as least as possible.

However, I don't think I can spank my kids. I will leave that to mom. :D

[gekko]

Smacking is just taking the easy way out as a parent because

1. it takes longer and it takes more effort to set boundaries and enforce them using verbal communication and non corporal punishment

2. it's not even the most effective way of setting the boundaries because the main reason smacking ends the behaviour is that you get a shocked child instead of a misbehaving child, while what you want is a child with insight into what's right and what's wrong

[Rodimus Prime]

No i'm sorry, but you're wrong. No child is a dick head by nature. They only behave like a dick when they are treated like a dick. Me and thousands of other kids are living proof of this.

And guiding your child is very different from smothering them or telling them that what they're doing is wrong.

BS. Some kids are just jerks and kids are all very different. I have to look no farther than my bother and sister for examples.

For me I was the one who would talk back to my parents, I was the one who would yell. I also did not like being punished by being sent to my room or things like that. I yelled about that but it would work

My brother drove my mom nuts because she no matter the punishment she gave him it did not effect him. Ground him he was ok with it and did not care, take away TV same thing. No matter what she did it did not phase him. Spanking him he took it in stride. That and my bother was a master of getting out of trouble by making my mom laugh. This was to much displeasure of my sister and I because we both would be in huge trouble for the same action.

My sister was the easiest. Just knowing she disappointed my parents was enough of a punishment and had a huge effect on her. She never really required any real punishment

[Iscariot]

Frequently and with a car.

[agkm800]

When it comes to kids, I think it's either lottery or DNA.

Some kids are just born evil while some others are born angels.

Sometimes, it has something to do with DNA. Other times, it's just a luck of the draw. :D

Training and discipline come later.

[MacVixen]

I'm a parent. Didn't think I would ever hit my kids as I received some rather severe beatings (belts, shoes, etc) as a child. However my 4-year old has received a spank on his bottom or on his hand perhaps a handful of times. And I am talking more of a hard pat rather than a spanking. It doesn't even hurt him - he cries because he knows that he has crossed the line and is now in trouble for it. I don't advocate beating children but I see nothing wrong with a parent spanking a child when the situation calls for it *shrugs*

[Antares]

A leather studded belt on a bare bum would do good to set a child right. Last resort, of course.

Though, if you can take a belt to a child, why shouldn't authorities be able to flog certain repeat adult criminals? How is it different?

[arkitect]

Though, if you can take a belt to child, why shouldn't authorities be able to flog certain repeat adult criminals? How is it different?

You may be surprised to see in how many countries adults get flogged/caned…

Link. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_corporal_punishment)

[MegaMillions]

BS. Some kids are just jerks and kids are all very different. I have to look no farther than my bother and sister for examples.

For me I was the one who would talk back to my parents, I was the one who would yell. I also did not like being punished by being sent to my room or things like that. I yelled about that but it would work

My brother drove my mom nuts because she no matter the punishment she gave him it did not effect him. Ground him he was ok with it and did not care, take away TV same thing. No matter what she did it did not phase him. Spanking him he took it in stride. That and my bother was a master of getting out of trouble by making my mom laugh. This was to much displeasure of my sister and I because we both would be in huge trouble for the same action.

My sister was the easiest. Just knowing she disappointed my parents was enough of a punishment and had a huge effect on her. She never really required any real punishment

Thanks for proving my point with such an in depth, real life example.

You talked back to your parents because they were talking to you rudely.

Your brother drove your mom nuts because she was punishing him.

WHY, oh WHY do you keep assuming that kids NEED punishment? "She never really required any real punishment" etc etc. None of you required punishment! I just, I don't know what to say. If somebody else who understands this and has more experience came into this discussion, me and them would trample you all into the ground.

And the fact that your parents told your sister that she's a disappointment. Wow. Just, wow.

[MacVixen]

A leather studded belt on a bare bum would do good to set a child right. Last resort, of course.

Though, if you can take a belt to child, why shouldn't authorities be able to flog certain repeat adult criminals? How is it different?

You generally CAN'T take a belt to your child these days - not unless you want the Child Protective Services involved. Most on here that spank their kids say we do just that - we spank them, NOT take a belt to them.

[arkitect]

I just, I don't know what to say. If somebody else who understands this and has more experience came into this discussion, me and them would trample you all into the ground.

So you are at a loss for words and would then "trample" dissenters under foot?

As opposed to using considered argument to change their views? You would resort to violence?

Interesting.

[MacVixen]

Thanks for proving my point with such an in depth, real life example.

You talked back to your parents because they were talking to you rudely.

Your brother drove your mom nuts because she was punishing him.

WHY, oh WHY do you keep assuming that kids NEED punishment? "She never really required any real punishment" etc etc. None of you required punishment! I just, I don't know what to say. If somebody else who understands this and has more experience came into this discussion, me and them would trample you all into the ground.

And the fact that your parents told your sister that she's a disappointment. Wow. Just, wow.


Who says his parents spoke to him rudely? He said HE spoke to THEM rudely. you are just assuming that the parents were rude first.

The brother drove the mom nuts because punishments didn't seem to have an affect on him NOT because she was doling out the punishment.

And he never said that his parents told his sister she was a dissapointment. He said his sister *knowing* that she disappointed her parents was punishment enough for her. There is a difference.

I get that you feel strongly in your opinion, but I think you completely misinterpreted his post.

[Rodimus Prime]

Who says his parents spoke to him rudely? He said HE spoke to THEM rudely. you are just assuming that the parents were rude first.

The brother drove the mom nuts because punishments didn't seem to have an affect on him NOT because she was doling out the punishment.

And he never said that his parents told his sister she was a dissapointment. He said his sister *knowing* that she disappointed her parents was punishment enough for her. There is a difference.

I get that you feel strongly in your opinion, but I think you completely misinterpreted his post.

Exactly. Any shouting match that happen between my parents and me always started with me. Never my parents. Hell before they raised their voices might of been after I yelled for a little bit.

My bother was exactly like you said

My sister was the best behaved out of the 3 of us and the easiest to raise because just KNOWING my parents were disappointed in her was enough of a punishment.

As for kids being jerks trust me some of them just are. Try being like me and being the one who was the kid always picked on by everyone. I was that kid who was pick on. Some people and kids just are jerks.

[messedkid]

Russell Peters- Beating Your Kids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn5jlrxcpkI) :D

SOMEBODY going to get a hurt!
...
Somebody!
:D

[it5five]

I was very surprised to see the poll results, and a little disgusted to be honest.

I was never hit (yes, spanking is hitting) as a child, and I will not hit my child. And like all of you pro-hitters in this thread are fond of saying: I turned out fine.

To me, resorting to hitting is nothing more than a sign of being a terrible parent. It means you gave up trying to resolve a conflict in a more rational way. It means you are being as unreasonable and childish as the kid you think deserves to be hurt.

When I was younger, nothing made me more remorseful than to see the disappointment on my fathers face when I did something wrong. All of the beatings in the world wouldn't have been worse than that.

[OutThere]

No i'm sorry, but you're wrong. No child is a dick head by nature. They only behave like a dick when they are treated like a dick. Me and thousands of other kids are living proof of this.

And guiding your child is very different from smothering them or telling them that what they're doing is wrong.

I think there are plenty of kids out there who have learned that they can do what they want and get their way without repercussion...leading to behaviors that are socially inappropriate.

I worked in an ice cream shop for four summers in high school/college...it was an interesting position because I got to see kids and their parents interacting in a place all day long. The number of empty threats I heard was unbelievable....

"Stop running around breaking things or you're not getting ice cream, Billy!"
-Billy starts pouring sugar all over the floor and jumping on ketchup packets.
"Billy you're getting a time out!"
-Billy starts crying and stamping his feet.
"Okay could I have one kid-size scoop of vanilla in a cup for him please?"
"MOM I WANT TWO SCOOPS"
"No Billy you're only getting one you've been bad."
-More tears.
"Okay could you make that two scoops please?"

I also saw a little boy break an empty ice cream cone over his mom's head because she said she wasn't getting him any ice cream...she responded by still getting him the ice cream.

I think most of these situations could be solved by a strict application of a no-ice-cream policy BUT there are kids who will continue to cause trouble simply because they haven't gotten what they wanted. In that case I think a spank is not out of line. What other recourse do you have, really? It's not socially acceptable to throw fits in public and kids need to learn that. If you try a few reasonable steps beforehand and they still don't respond a smack on the behind is both humiliating and slightly painful, and will be associated with that sort of behavior for a long time.

I only recall being spanked once or twice...I remember it clearly and I'm sure I was acting horrible for my parents to have resorted to that. The memory was enough in the future that any threat of spanking was the line not to be crossed. I think I also had my ear twisted once when I was being really bad waiting at the gate for an international flight.

Spanking shouldn't be the go-to punishment, however it can be an effective tool in a good parent's great arsenal of rewards and punishments....simple things that appeal to the most basic, animal parts of our brain.


As for people who say that all of this discussion is a big 'kids these days' argument that has been repeated for every generation...there has been a decent amount of news coverage in recent years about how todays twenty-somethings are causing problems as they join the workforce. Employers are having to hire consultants to manage new hires who are insubordinate, late and cannot deal with criticism. This is a generation of people who have never been told that they are wrong and have gotten trophies just for participating even if they lost. Perhaps a little spanking at 5 years old could go quite a long way to helping these kids deal with the spanking that comes with entering the real world unprepared.

[anjinha]

^^

/thread

[uberamd]

As for people who say that all of this discussion is a big 'kids these days' argument that has been repeated for every generation...there has been a decent amount of news coverage in recent years about how todays twenty-somethings are causing problems as they join the workforce. Employers are having to hire consultants to manage new hires who are insubordinate, late and cannot deal with criticism. This is a generation of people who have never been told that they are wrong and have gotten trophies just for participating even if they lost. Perhaps a little spanking at 5 years old could go quite a long way to helping these kids deal with the spanking that comes with entering the real world unprepared.

QFE. Classic. *Applause*. How right you are sir. I am 21, and I hate the image my generation has, but sadly there is a lot of truth behind it. I want, I want, I want, I want, I deserve, I deserve, I deserve... blah blah blah. Heck, read the iPhone forum here, its full of "I want's".

[rdowns]

QFE. Classic. *Applause*. How right you are sir. I am 21, and I hate the image my generation has, but sadly there is a lot of truth behind it. I want, I want, I want, I want, I deserve, I deserve, I deserve... blah blah blah. Heck, read the iPhone forum here, its full of "I want's".



Let me second that. We've raised a generation of kids who do not deal with the real world very well.

[samiwas]

WHY, oh WHY do you keep assuming that kids NEED punishment? "She never really required any real punishment" etc etc. None of you required punishment! I just, I don't know what to say. If somebody else who understands this and has more experience came into this discussion, me and them would trample you all into the ground.

What the!?!? Are you saying (because it's what I'm reading) that no child should ever be punished for any reason, no matter what they have done? They should just do what they do (even if very bad) and the parents shouldn't do anything in return?! Are you seriously that mental?

Is your idea that the parent just says to little 3-year old Jimmy, "Now Jimmy...I saw you take that rock and throw it at that mother walking her baby, but please don't do that again. OK? It could hurt someone. OK? Now go off and play!"..."Jimmy! I asked you nicely to stop throwing rocks at people, now that guy is hurt. Don't do it any more. OK??"..."OK, Jimmy...since you keep throwing rocks at people, we're going to go play on the swings instead." Yes, I'm sure that method works wonders. Let me know how it goes.

As for people who say that all of this discussion is a big 'kids these days' argument that has been repeated for every generation...there has been a decent amount of news coverage in recent years about how todays twenty-somethings are causing problems as they join the workforce. Employers are having to hire consultants to manage new hires who are insubordinate, late and cannot deal with criticism. This is a generation of people who have never been told that they are wrong and have gotten trophies just for participating even if they lost. Perhaps a little spanking at 5 years old could go quite a long way to helping these kids deal with the spanking that comes with entering the real world unprepared.

Oh my god, don't even get me started on this. The place my wife worked for several months had to fire over HALF of their twenty-something work force for sheer lack of caring about anything. They'd show up late all the time, not stay in their positions, talk on their cellphones...and then they had the nerve to threaten to sue when they were fired after repeated warnings. Whatever.

[gekko]

<snip a lot of good thinking> Perhaps a little spanking at 5 years old could go quite a long way to helping these kids deal with the spanking that comes with entering the real world unprepared.
It's strange how you after a lot of sound thinking pulls the biggest unfounded "perhaps" out of nowhere. Edit: Well, actually the thinking wasn't that sound, but at least it had some good points.

There is no research that points to a correlation between the use of corporal punishment and good behaviour as adolescent/adult. In fact, research only suggests the opposite.

"Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child."
http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html

This other quote is also extremely important to consider: "Secondly, although it makes children afraid to disobey when parents are present, when parents are not present to administer the punishment those same children will misbehave.".

This makes the job of teachers and others who have to deal with the child a lot harder, because corporal punishment isn't an option to them.

[grapes911]

To me, resorting to hitting is nothing more than a sign of being a terrible parent. It means you gave up trying to resolve a conflict in a more rational way. It means you are being as unreasonable and childish as the kid you think deserves to be hurt.
I was only spanked when I was really young, as in too young to be rational. I never "deserved" to be hit. Rather, spanking reenforced good behavior; it was not actual punishment. BTW, I'd love you to try to rationalize with a 2 year old who is throwing their toys around the living room just because they can.

[OutThere]

It's strange how you after a lot of sound thinking pulls the biggest unfounded "perhaps" out of nowhere. Edit: Well, actually the thinking wasn't that sound, but at least it had some good points.

There is no research that points to a correlation between the use of corporal punishment and good behaviour as adolescent/adult. In fact, research only suggests the opposite.

"Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child."
http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html

But, Gershoff also cautions that her findings do not imply that all children who experience corporal punishment turn out to be aggressive or delinquent. A variety of situational factors, such as the parent/child relationship, can moderate the effects of corporal punishment. Furthermore, studying the true effects of corporal punishment requires drawing a boundary line between punishment and abuse. This is a difficult thing to do, especially when relying on parents' self-reports of their discipline tactics and interpretations of normative punishment.
. . .
Baumrind et al. suggest that those parents whose emotional make-up may cause them to cross the line between appropriate corporal punishment and physical abuse should be counseled not to use corporal punishment as a technique to discipline their children. But, that other parents could use mild to moderate corporal punishment effectively. "The fact that some parents punish excessively and unwisely is not an argument, however, for counseling all parents not to punish at all."

It's a tool that can be misused horribly, but a tiny bit of pain and humiliation stick will stick in the mind for quite some time, just as the pain of being fired, told your works sucks or being demoted hurts later on.

[gekko]

. . .
Sure, but there's still not anything in the findings that suggests mild corporal punishment is necessary or desireable. It's just the lack of evidence that mild corporal punishment must have a negative effect, but it might if administered badly. Why would you employ mild corporal punishment if there's no shown benefit? You just think there might be, and your parents did, and you're ok, so that must be because you were spanked. That's faulty logic, because I'm ok too, and I wasn't spanked.

[rhsgolfer33]

I myself was raised with unconditional love, affection, understanding, autonomy, and respect.

And this is largely the problem with the way many parents raise their children today. They don't punish in any form.

I know some kids that were raised in this new age form and are now adults. Neither has a job, because since the parents let them autonomously go along on their own path and decide everything on their, neither ended up at a college or another purposeful place after high school. One is a drug addict because why should the parents condemn his behavior? Its up to him, he is in full control, and hey, they still love him even if he takes some PCP and demolishes the living room. The girl is a blatant liar, a stalker, and is spoiled rotten because buying her what she needs to pursue her dreams shows our affection, understanding, and allows her to be autonomous.

I threw tantrums, misbehaved, etc., not because my parents were rude or didn't talk to me like an adult. Kids throw tantrums because they don't get their way or they don't get something they want. I can never recall my parents being rude to me and me throwing a tantrum about. I can recall wanting a Reese at the checkout line, not getting it, and yelling and screaming the whole way home.

Autonomy for a child, don't even go there. I can't go to a pizza place without a bunch of autonomous kids running all over the place, cutting me off in line, and screaming the whole time. A little parental discipline never hurt anyone and certainly wouldn't have hurt you or any of the jackass children at that pizza place.

It's just the lack of evidence that mild corporal punishment must have a negative effect, but it might if administered badly. Why would you employ mild corporal punishment if there's no shown benefit?

Well, in using the same reasoning you used to conclude that it might have a negative effect if administered badly, I could conclude that it also might have a positive affect it administered well. So there is a possible benefit. Your conclusion is no more valid than mine as neither is supported by the research.

[spaceboots06]

I only hit other people's kids.

[miniConvert]

I voted that I don't plan to smack my children. I would never set out to do it, but I can't imagine what kind of parent I'd be and whether it would be necessary or not. I was appropriately smacked by my parents and I don't believe it has done me any harm.

<- doesn't have children, may never have them.

[gekko]

Well, in using the same reasoning you used to conclude that it might have a negative effect if administered badly, I could conclude that it also might have a positive affect it administered well. So there is a possible benefit. Your conclusion is no more valid than mine as neither is supported by the research.

No, because research shows a significant positive correlation between the use of corporal punishment and undesireable traits later in life (such as problems with mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior (from the article)).

There has not been shown any positive correlation between the use of corporal punishment and positive effects later in life.

Edit: And obviously the author has to include those paragraphs that say mild corporal punishment doesn't have to be harmful, because there are a lot of people out there who has been spanked and who do spank and think it has "worked" for them, and of course it may, because even if there's a strong correlation between the problems later in life and corporal punishment, there's no strict cause and effect relation as there almost never is in the social sciences. There are lots of variables.

[samiwas]

No, because research shows a significant positive correlation between the use of corporal punishment and undesireable traits later in life (such as problems with mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior (from the article)).

There has not been shown any positive correlation between the use of corporal punishment and positive effects later in life.

Does the research define what level of "corporal punishment" causes such behavior? Probably not. I'm no psychologist, but I would find it very hard to believe that a small smack on the butt a few times while growing up causes criminal or antisocial behavior. I would find it very easy to believe that hitting your child with a fist frequently or beating them with a stick could cause such behavior. The problem is, these types of studies probably rarely separate out the levels of "corporal punishment" and what types of effects are drawn from each.

[gekko]

Does the research define what level of "corporal punishment" causes such behavior? Probably not. I'm no psychologist, but I would find it very hard to believe that a small smack on the butt a few times while growing up causes criminal or antisocial behavior. I would find it very easy to believe that hitting your child with a fist frequently or beating them with a stick could cause such behavior. The problem is, these types of studies probably rarely separate out the levels of "corporal punishment" and what types of effects are drawn from each.
I agree. It's more likely that problems later are associated with excessive levels of corporal punishment. According to the wise people who contribute to wikipedia, there's some research that conclude mild spanking is unlikely to have a significant detrimental effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_in_the_home#Pros_and_cons "A 1996 study by Robert Larzelere suggested that, in some circumstances, corporal punishment of children can increase short-term compliance with parental commands, although comparisons in the same study with alternative punishments such as one-minute time-outs did not establish that corporal punishment was more effective.[17]
The clinical and developmental psychologist Diana Baumrind has studied the effects of corporal punishment on children, and has concluded that mild spanking, in the context of an authoritative (NOT authoritarian) parenting style, is unlikely to have a significant detrimental effect, if one is careful to control for other variables such as socioeconomic status. She observes that previous studies demonstrating a correlation between corporal punishment and bad outcomes failed to control for these variables.[18] She has also cautioned that neither the pro-spanking or anti-spanking studies are truly scientific, in the sense that physics or chemistry experiments are scientific, as they cannot be modeled or reproduced by other researchers, there are too many disparate factors that might influence the results, and the studies are often heavily biased toward producing a result that affirms the researcher's personal beliefs.[19]
A 1996 study by Straus suggested that children who receive corporal punishment are more likely to be angry as adults, use spanking as a form of discipline, approve of striking a spouse, and experience marital discord.[20] According to Cohen's 1996 study, older children who receive corporal punishment may resort to more physical aggression, substance abuse, crime and violence.[21] However, it is not always clear what these studies define as "corporal punishment"."

So research say there's a risk involved with corporal punishment, and research also shows other kinds of punishment without the risks are just as effective.

Why choose corporal punishment? To be frank I think it's just stupid and lazy for someone to continue defending corporal punishment after having educated themselves a little.

[JNB]

The most interesting dichotomy of this entire thread:

Those that are "for" spankings seem to all believe in limited and specific usage; not as an immediate, always-use-this-method-first approach. In other words, not a "one size fits all" philosophy.

Those that are "against" are seemingly absolutists, more of an under-no-circumstances set. Pretty cut and dried.

So who's being reasonable, and who's being fanatical?

Another observation: That "nature vs. nurture" argument also seems to fall in line with the beliefs of each group; but the first group seems to see it as a little of both, while the latter are solidly in the "nurture" camp. Again, looking at the larger, more world-aware situation as opposed to maintaining a (forgive the expression) pop psychology flavor of the month viewpoint.

Or, as PJ O'Rourke said (and sending this straight to PRSI): "God is a Repblican, Santa Claus is a Democrat."

[Diane2boys]

[

[MyDesktopBroke]

Good lord, I can't believe people still think that physical abuse is still a valid form of parenting.

I was never hit (spanking is hitting), abused, or physically harmed in anyway by my parents. I never disobeyed an order from them, broke any rules they set down, scorned them, or acted in a way just to get a rise out of them. I respected them (especially my father, who was abused as a child) because of this. Had they ever resorted to physical violence, that respect would have been destroyed forever.

The idea that punishment is required is saddening to me in so many ways. I was never grounded, denied food, denied going out, or whatever, and, as so many people are saying here, I "turned out ok." I got a job at 14 and never looked back. I have a 4.0 GPA. I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, vandalize, steal, or hurt animals. If my brothers or I did something wrong, our parents took the time to explain why it was wrong. Calm disappointment from my mother did more to strengthen my resolve to be a good person than any amount of hitting ever could.

Children do stupid things because their brains are not yet formed. If any misbehavior is met with violence, all it will do is to teach that child that violence is a valid response for everyone, because, hey, mom and dad use it. I have worked as a sports coach for six years, and the amount of child abuse I see is astonishing. By now I should be used to it, but seeing a mother slap her child around still makes my blood boil.

Teach your kids. Work with them. Make them work. Talk to them. Explain what is right and point out what is wrong. Set a good example yourself. Treat them as a partner in life. Don't spoil them, but good lord, don't abuse them.

[gekko]

The most interesting dichotomy of this entire thread:

Those that are "for" spankings seem to all believe in limited and specific usage; not as an immediate, always-use-this-method-first approach. In other words, not a "one size fits all" philosophy.

Those that are "against" are seemingly absolutists, more of an under-no-circumstances set. Pretty cut and dried.

So who's being reasonable, and who's being fanatical?

Another observation: That "nature vs. nurture" argument also seems to fall in line with the beliefs of each group; but the first group seems to see it as a little of both, while the latter are solidly in the "nurture" camp. Again, looking at the larger, more world-aware situation as opposed to maintaining a (forgive the expression) pop psychology flavor of the month viewpoint.

Or, as PJ O'Rourke said (and sending this straight to PRSI): "God is a Repblican, Santa Claus is a Democrat."
Uhm, if you're trying to make the connection between being pro corporal punishment and not having a "one size fits all" philosophy, howcome you make blunt generalizations about both groups in a "one size fits all" kind of way?

[LizKat]

A smack on the behind, seldom enough to be remembered in adulthood as a rarity.

After around age 8, time outs without toys for a little while.

After around age 11, grounding, extra chores.

But that's it. No hitting about the face and head. No beatings.

That's how I was raised, and how I raised my youngest brothers. I only remember getting spanked once, by my grandma, and I deserved it, and knew it. My mom slapped me once in exasperation on a hot summer evening when I was being sullen and uncooperative during kitchen cleanup, and had mouthed on about my great misfortune being part of that family. Had that slap coming, no doubt in my mind.

[gekko]

Good lord, I can't believe people still think that physical abuse is still a valid form of parenting.

I was never hit (spanking is hitting), abused, or physically harmed in anyway by my parents. I never disobeyed an order from them, broke any rules they set down, scorned them, or acted in a way just to get a rise out of them. I respected them (especially my father, who was abused as a child) because of this. Had they ever resorted to physical violence, that respect would have been destroyed forever.

The idea that punishment is required is saddening to me in so many ways. I was never grounded, denied food, denied going out, or whatever, and, as so many people are saying here, I "turned out ok." I got a job at 14 and never looked back. I have a 4.0 GPA. I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, vandalize, steal, or hurt animals. If my brothers or I did something wrong, our parents took the time to explain why it was wrong. Calm disappointment from my mother did more to strengthen my resolve to be a good person than any amount of hitting ever could.

Children do stupid things because their brains are not yet formed. If any misbehavior is met with violence, all it will do is to teach that child that violence is a valid response for everyone, because, hey, mom and dad use it. I have worked as a sports coach for six years, and the amount of child abuse I see is astonishing. By now I should be used to it, but seeing a mother slap her child around still makes my blood boil.

Teach your kids. Work with them. Make them work. Talk to them. Explain what is right and point out what is wrong. Set a good example yourself. Treat them as a partner in life. Don't spoil them, but good lord, don't abuse them.
This is a very good post. I wasn't spanked either, but I do remember being put in place once after I punched my neighbour (a girl two years younger than me) in the stomach for not wanting to play with LEGO any more. I was had a right talking to after that. I don't remember any of what my mother said. I was too young, but I do remember feeling more ashamed than I had ever felt before. I can assure it worked, and the message she got across was that it was never ok to hit anyone.

[Don't panic]

no, and don't plan to, but i sometimes let the possibility that it might happen linger.

in general i think the approach is useless for young kids and there are better option for older ones.
so far, calmly explaining why things were wrong has been by far the most effective way.
i have to say we have been lucky because my kids never threw a tantrum in the 13 years of their combined lives.

[instaxgirl]

"Stop running around breaking things or you're not getting ice cream, Billy!"
-Billy starts pouring sugar all over the floor and jumping on ketchup packets.
"Billy you're getting a time out!"
-Billy starts crying and stamping his feet.
"Okay could I have one kid-size scoop of vanilla in a cup for him please?"
"MOM I WANT TWO SCOOPS"
"No Billy you're only getting one you've been bad."
-More tears.


I've worked in a kid's clothes shop for 4 years. ONCE in all that time have I heard a mother actually snap "RIGHT, THAT'S IT. Go to the car you're not getting ANYTHING". And the kid was dragged screaming from the shop.

What's worse is the parents that don't even bother with the weak threats. I've developed a special "the nice lady is PISSED" look for their offspring.

On smacking - I got smacked. My siblings and I only got smacked if we'd seriously stepped out of line and when I did get smacked I knew my parents were thoroughly disgusted with how I'd behaved. They didn't really hurt, just stung. The worst part of the punishment wasn't the smack itself, it was knowing I'd behaved badly enough to get one and that my parents were absolutely furious.

My parents mainly used other ways to ensure good behaviour though. For about a 6 month period they had us believing they'd ordered a "jail for children" and set it up in the garage. I remember being sure they were bluffing, until a massive box (containing, it turned out, a freezer) appeared one day. There was also the threat of the "Home for Bad Boys/Girls" where they made you clean chimneys every day. I laughed when my 3 year old cousin relayed that story to me with wide eyes a while ago. Good to know the old threat's still circling.

[OutThere]

Sure, but there's still not anything in the findings that suggests mild corporal punishment is necessary or desireable. It's just the lack of evidence that mild corporal punishment must have a negative effect, but it might if administered badly. Why would you employ mild corporal punishment if there's no shown benefit? You just think there might be, and your parents did, and you're ok, so that must be because you were spanked. That's faulty logic, because I'm ok too, and I wasn't spanked.

I'm a firm believer in social science and the merits of studies like this...I also think that if it hasn't been shown that mild application is detrimental even if the study has shown no clear long term benefit, on a case-by-case basis and in specific situations it can be used effectively. Like anything that is harmless in small doses I think it should be up to the individual to decide if they want to apply it and whether or not they find it effective. If you don't believe in it, fine, don't do it, however I feel there is room for an occasionally spanking as a last resort even in the most loving and peaceful of parent-child relationships.

If the parent finds it effective when used very sparingly, and studies have not proven that mild and rare spanking is detrimental to the child then where is the problem?

[Dmac77]

I'm not nearly old enough to have kids, but my parents used to hit (spank) me, my Dad would even use his belt. They've stopped doing that now, not because they think it's wrong though.

They stopped when I was around 9, and started to ground me then.

Also, they only smacked me when I deserved it, and on the rare occasion that my Dad would use a belt, I really deserved it.

If I ever have kids, I certainly will physically punish my kids. I have no problem with it. It works, and IMO this crap about talking and timeouts is BS. I absolutely hate it when I'm in a store and I see some little brat crying about wanting something, and their idiot parents are saying "no not this time Johnny, please stop crying Johnny, please, if you stop crying I'll buy you something." What those parents should do, is smack the kid.

Don

[gekko]

I'm a firm believer in social science and the merits of studies like this...I also think that if it hasn't been shown that mild application is detrimental even if the study has shown no clear long term benefit, on a case-by-case basis and in specific situations it can be used effectively. Like anything that is harmless in small doses I think it should be up to the individual to decide if they want to apply it and whether or not they find it effective. If you don't believe in it, fine, don't do it, however I feel there is room for an occasionally spanking as a last resort even in the most loving and peaceful of parent-child relationships.

If the parent finds it effective when used very sparingly, and studies have not proven that mild and rare spanking is detrimental to the child then where is the problem?
I can appreciate your point, and I also think mild and rare spanking can work as intended in some cases, but in the general case it doesn't remove the risks.

Here's one quote from the wikipedia article. "The American Academy of Pediatrics also believes that corporal punishment polarizes the parent-child relationship, reducing the amount of spontaneous cooperation on the part of the child. The AAP policy statement says "...reliance on spanking as a discipline approach makes other discipline strategies less effective to use".[25] Thus, so it is alleged, it has an addiction-like effect: the more one spanks, the more one feels a need to spank, possibly escalating until the situation is out of control."

Then there's also the signal effects. Firstly there's no way you can use physical punishment and still argue as convincingly to the child why he or she shouldn't hit their friend for not wanting to play with LEGO. When a child gets upset, violence would seem a more possible actions to take if they've seen it used by their own parents.

Secondly, even if your own spanking doesn't cross the line over into abuse, it still helps legitimise the use of corporal punishment for those many parents whose corporal punishment does cross the line.

Our parent generations didn't have this research available to them. They spanked because they did think it would have a positive effect. Now we know that positive effects can't be shown, but there are risks involved. So the parent generation of today really has no excuse for continuing to employ corporal punishment.

[LeahM]

I don't agree with spanking, only because you are then teaching your child that agressive behavior is acceptable. If a child were fighting, would you spank them for fighting? Two wrongs don't make a right.
I agree with the previous poster who said spanking is a sign of losing control.

I guess I'm kind of a hypocrit though because my niece who is 14, I would spank her, not in an agressive way (like a belt) but more like a 'Shame on you for picking on your brother'. Its probably because my mom does the same to me. But its more of a joke then punishment.

[JNB]

Uhm, if you're trying to make the connection between being pro corporal punishment and not having a "one size fits all" philosophy, howcome you make blunt generalizations about both groups in a "one size fits all" kind of way?

I didn't, if you read the post. I made observations, and noted several times that these groups seem to follow general patterns. That word is in there repeatedly. That's not generalizing a class, only evaluating what was written.

I'll make another observation. People seem to not read posts on forums, rather preferring to read into what the poster said from an emotional viewpoint, choosing a turn of phrase in a way that is just not there.

Something I learned a long time ago, and should be applied to my posts: do not read into or out of what I say. Although you may not perceive the intent, please don't deign to presume any meaning beyond what the words actually used. This is why I stay out of PRSI. There's a great deal of breast-beating, but very little rational discussion.

I don't generalize: I make a determination of content based on the words used; that's all I've got to go on. It would be nice of everybody else did the same, but then these threads would be a whole lot shorter and much less entertaining. :D

I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I'll leave it at that. I'm not particularly concerned with who agrees or disagrees with me, as very few people seek to debate, but rather to argue, and I'm not here for that. I'm also not interested in parsing posts, losing sight of the original topic. And as this is likely destined for PRSI, I'll never see it again anyway. ;)

EDIT: It's there, I see.

[Don't panic]

I'm not nearly old enough to have kids, but my parents used to hit (spank) me, my Dad would even use his belt. They've stopped doing that now, not because they think it's wrong though.

They stopped when I was around 9, and started to ground me then.

Also, they only smacked me when I deserved it, and on the rare occasion that my Dad would use a belt, I really deserved it.

If I ever have kids, I certainly will physically punish my kids. I have no problem with it. It works, and IMO this crap about talking and timeouts is BS. I absolutely hate it when I'm in a store and I see some little brat crying about wanting something, and their idiot parents are saying "no not this time Johnny, please stop crying Johnny, please, if you stop crying I'll buy you something." What those parents should do, is smack the kid.

Don

maybe you should let people that have used the approach decide if it's BS or not.
ineffective parents will be ineffective parents, independently on the methods they use.

if anything, this thread show that being abused as a child seems to be the strongest rationale for abusing (or planning to abuse) the next generation.
And sorry but yes, hitting a child with a belt is abuse, under every circumstance.

[Dmac77]

maybe you should let people that have used the approach decide if it's BS or not.
ineffective parents will be ineffective parents, independently on the methods they use.

if anything, this thread show that being abused as a child seems to be the strongest rationale for abusing (or planning to abuse) the next generation.
And sorry but yes, hitting a child with a belt is abuse, under every circumstance.

Why, because you think it's abuse?

Just because you think that it's abuse doesn't mean that it's abuse.

Don

[Mousse]

As funny as I find Maddox, (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=beat) I don't subscribe to the beating your kids stuff. Why? Because it doesn't work. Plain and simple. The best way to discipline your kids is by hitting, metaphroically, where it hurts.

Toddlers hate being forced to stay in one spot while their friends rampage around the yard. I have my kid stand in a corner, facing outward. That why she can see the other kids playing. She wants to join in, but can't. That's torture for a toddler.

You need to get creative with teenagers. What I did with my teen (he's an avid gamer) was delete all his saved games.:eek: Next transgression gets all his customer ringtones deleted. If he hasn't learn after that, I replace his fancy smart phone with a basic no frills phone. Deprive a teen of his texting and he'll straighten up PDQ.;) Hit them where it hurts.

That's taking a play from the Government's playbook. They hit me where it hurts all the time, in the wallet.:mad::mad::mad:

PS. If someone hits my kid, I'll see if they deserved it before making a fuss. I teach my kids all the time that there are consequences to their actions. Sometimes, they gotta learn that for themselves. If you make fun of someone bigger and meaner than you, be prepared to for the can of whoop--- they're gonna open up. Fortunately, my kids are smart enough to learn from observing others getting the hinny handed to them; knock on my mother-in-law's head.

[it5five]

Good lord, I can't believe people still think that physical abuse is still a valid form of parenting.

I was never hit (spanking is hitting), abused, or physically harmed in anyway by my parents. I never disobeyed an order from them, broke any rules they set down, scorned them, or acted in a way just to get a rise out of them. I respected them (especially my father, who was abused as a child) because of this. Had they ever resorted to physical violence, that respect would have been destroyed forever.

The idea that punishment is required is saddening to me in so many ways. I was never grounded, denied food, denied going out, or whatever, and, as so many people are saying here, I "turned out ok." I got a job at 14 and never looked back. I have a 4.0 GPA. I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, vandalize, steal, or hurt animals. If my brothers or I did something wrong, our parents took the time to explain why it was wrong. Calm disappointment from my mother did more to strengthen my resolve to be a good person than any amount of hitting ever could.

Children do stupid things because their brains are not yet formed. If any misbehavior is met with violence, all it will do is to teach that child that violence is a valid response for everyone, because, hey, mom and dad use it. I have worked as a sports coach for six years, and the amount of child abuse I see is astonishing. By now I should be used to it, but seeing a mother slap her child around still makes my blood boil.

Teach your kids. Work with them. Make them work. Talk to them. Explain what is right and point out what is wrong. Set a good example yourself. Treat them as a partner in life. Don't spoil them, but good lord, don't abuse them.

Great post. It seems we are in agreement here.

It's interesting that disappointment from both of our parents did more to correct our behavior than anything else.

[Diane2boys]

l]

[yoppie]

I don't have any kids yet but I will probably spank them if they get out of line. I have no desire to beg and plead with my child to do something I ask them to do. I shouldn't have to ask you six times to stop doing whatever it is you're doing. In my experience (I was spanked as a child) one or two swaps always fix it.

I laugh when I see parents in stores bribing their kids with items so they can be well-behaved. Please stop or I won't buy you any ice cream. Don't you want some ice cream? If you stop, we're going to Cold Stone. Forget all of that. Spank his/her bottom and get it over with.

I was on a trip this weekend and a kid (he appeared to be about five or six) was kicking his mom in the legs while she sat down. She begged him to stop and he wouldn't, instead he took it up a notch and slapped her after she asked him to stop about 3-4 times. I'm sorry but that's not a kid I'm talking to. I'm spanking his behind! I'll have the talk and explain to him what he did wrong after I'm done swatting at his bottom.

[blackfox]

I could go either way.

As a child, I was spanked, went to a school system with corporal punishment, had my mouth washed out with soap, but the merits of these actions were within a larger context - not in and of themselves.

All of the above actions were applied sparingly and seriously - and were often effective only as threats. Still, their utility (imo) was based on the larger context of a continued engagement in my welfare/life by my parents - wherein I felt important and paid attention to - even when I did something wrong, it was enough to merit more than a knee-jerk reaction. I remember that.

Parenting seems to be one of the hardest jobs out there, where you get no instruction. I am surprised so many people can pull it off. Corporal punishment is probably only a valid and useful disciplinary tool w/in a integral and thoughtful parenting strategy.

Kids may not be able to fully reason yet, or have the proper larger context for some actions beyond themselves - but they are great bulls*** detectors, and can be remarkably intuitive, even if they may not understand all they learn on an intellectual level.

If your parenting is disciplined, consistent, engaging and loving - corporal punishment may be a valid tool to use - if it is not, it could end up being a disaster.

Of course, under such circumstances your kid(s) probably have other problems. From what I remember, dealing with inconsistencies as a child was the most confusing(and perhaps detrimental) - though my parents did a pretty good job. Things like "Do as I say, not as I do", or spoiling the child - either to placate (either as problem-solving or a result of neglect), coupled with random physical punishment (again, as a result of lack-of-coherent strategy) - can be very damaging I would imagine.

I"m afraid I feel I am not being as clear as I'd like - but perhaps you all get the drift...

[Don't panic]

Why, because you think it's abuse?

Just because you think that it's abuse doesn't mean that it's abuse.

Don

really? so when does it become abuse? death? hospitalization? permanent scars? at what age is it ok to hit your kids? 1? 2? 3? when do you plan to stop hitting them? 16? 18? when the can kick your arse? and at what point they 'deserve' to be hitten?

if you think that in any situation it is ok, let alone necessary to pick up a weapon to hit a child, you need counseling.

hopefully by the time you are a parent you'll have matured.

[bruinsrme]

Amen.

I couldn't find morbs post but please refer to megas post.

I grew up playing ice hockey. I skated 5 +times a week. I was full of energy all the time, fear was the place with rides lol, full steam ahead All the time. I have scars all over my head from playing so rough and ending up needing stitches.
My mom, RIP, was nothing shy of being a GREAT mom. If she didn't get my attention who knows what I would have done.
I was a bit of a trouble maker andcompletely understood if I was doing something wrong and got caught I was going to have to pay. Sometimes I paid dearly.
My little brother was an angel.
There would have been no way my parents could have treated him like me and vice versa.
My parents surely didn't beat me but I was deserving sometimes.
To this day I struggle containing myself and still play hockey at least 3 times a week. I have learned to deal with it but I can't imagine what I put my parents through.
Every child is different Just like every adult is.
I thAnk my dad to this day for letting me see everyday

[spaceboots06]

My kids hit me.

[MyDesktopBroke]

It's interesting that disappointment from both of our parents did more to correct our behavior than anything else.

The way I saw, it was that disappointment signaled that something I had done had saddened my parents, which is a larger sign of emotion than anger.

I once poked my father in the eye while wrestling with him, and he got started swearing. Because I was young I started laughing at the swear words which got him (understandably) very mad. He swore at me, but then stopped and walked out of the room. Later, when I found out about his childhood, I realized what a huge battle he must have been having inside himself, and the realization that he chose to leave the room effected me in an enormous way. If he had hit me, I would have resented that moment for my entire life. Instead, I remember it whenever I am mad at him, and realize that, while he has made some bad choices for our family, he always has tried to put his family first.

I absolutely hate it when I'm in a store and I see some little brat crying about wanting something, and their idiot parents are saying "no not this time Johnny, please stop crying Johnny, please, if you stop crying I'll buy you something." What those parents should do, is smack the kid.
After six years of teaching young children, I have seen parents resort to hitting many times. I have yet to see it work.

[OutThere]

I never disobeyed an order from them, broke any rules they set down, scorned them, or acted in a way just to get a rise out of them. . . . I got a job at 14 and never looked back. I have a 4.0 GPA. I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, vandalize, steal, or hurt animals.

And we all wish we could be as perfect as you! :rolleyes:

Treat them as a partner in life.

I'm pretty sure this is where a lot of parents go wrong, actually. Little children are your responsibility, not your best friend. At a certain point you have to tell them what to do, be their guide and mentor not their best pal. I think that a lot of parents have trouble telling their children they did something wrong because they're too worried about being their kids' best buddy and scared that their children will resent them for something.

[brad.c]

I vote "Pro-choice" for spanking.

———————

I haven't spanked my kids, yet, but I'm not done raising them. On a sliding scale, spanking is merely the final tool at my disposal, and the last thing I want to do is to use it as a crutch. Negative reinforcement loses it's power over time, and if you have used up the biggie, then where do you go from there? Instead, we focus on encouragement and positive reinforcement.

If I do find myself in the situation where I believe it's necessary, it will be after due warning, to be carried out at the end of the day. I don't remember the warning of a spanking from changing my actions as a child, but I do remember the horrible anticipation of imminent punishment, and the knowledge that it was deserved.

[gekko]

I didn't, if you read the post. I made observations, and noted several times that these groups seem to follow general patterns. That word is in there repeatedly. That's not generalizing a class, only evaluating what was written.

I'll make another observation. People seem to not read posts on forums, rather preferring to read into what the poster said from an emotional viewpoint, choosing a turn of phrase in a way that is just not there.

Something I learned a long time ago, and should be applied to my posts: do not read into or out of what I say. Although you may not perceive the intent, please don't deign to presume any meaning beyond what the words actually used. This is why I stay out of PRSI. There's a great deal of breast-beating, but very little rational discussion.

I don't generalize: I make a determination of content based on the words used; that's all I've got to go on. It would be nice of everybody else did the same, but then these threads would be a whole lot shorter and much less entertaining. :D

I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I'll leave it at that. I'm not particularly concerned with who agrees or disagrees with me, as very few people seek to debate, but rather to argue, and I'm not here for that. I'm also not interested in parsing posts, losing sight of the original topic. And as this is likely destined for PRSI, I'll never see it again anyway. ;)

EDIT: It's there, I see.
That would be all well and good if the observations you say you seem to see were true, but they're not. There are people both pro and against with nuanced opinions, and then now one who say he could go either way.

And I also know as an example, because OutThere and I have had the same debate in the private forums once, that our opinions are not very different really even if we argue for different sides. I remember we both concluded that what's really importance is to have clear boundaries that are enforced.

[Legolamb]

You have to first understand that we had a 5:1 rule. We praised my daughter 5 times a day more than criticize her on her worst days.

But, yes, I spanked my daughter on her bum a few times when she was, say, under 5. It was only used when she was in the midst of doing something that was physically going to hurt her after I warned her not to. Note the "when she was in midst". It wasn't punishment after the fact. The association with the mild hurt she felt at my hand vs. the hurt she was going to face at a speeding car was worth it.

We moved from such physical responses to symbolic ones (no TV if you didn't do well in school; no sleep overs if you didn't make up your room; time-out if you can't control yourself, etc.) as she got older and she was able to deal with logic, cause and effect, time, impulse control, etc. Maybe I was lucky, but most of the time, she got the message. In fact, the standing joke was that "come here, I'm going to smack you" meant giving her a kiss on the cheek.

I've witnessed parents humiliate their children but who would never "touch" a child. I've witnessed parents ignore unsocial or dangerous behavior in their kids because "the kid will grow out of it". I've witnessed parents try to appeal to the "logical" brain of a 5 yr old. while the kid threw blocks or canned goods because "the kid is just a mini-adult". My sister-in-law actually said that she would rather her daughter burn herself on birthday candles then have her 3-yr old's natural curiosity be thwarted in her "exploring how much fire can hurt". These are abuses that leave their marks on the soul of a child much more than spanking.

To use the slippery slope argument from a light attention-focusing spank on a clothed child, to corporal punishment with a strap and full body assault is illogical. To use a blanket statement or approach to child rearing, as if all children need the same socialization, behavior modification, techniques for every situation is also ridiculous. Good luck to all of us who turned out brilliantly because of/in spite of an occasional thwat.

[parapup]

I guess there is no one rule - spank or don't for a parent. It has to be dealt with on a case by case basis. My son is one case, daughter quite another.

My son is hyperactive - after spending full day (minus lunch time) playing outside and enjoying going to park with us he asks - what should I do next after coming home in the evening. He has very little to no sense of danger or willingness to listen or understand. For example for quite some time he had a tendency to start running on the road - after getting out of car in the parking lot, after coming out of the house etc. He was twice in the danger of getting run over and that was despite we telling him non-stop not to do that.

So I had to take some drastic measures - for this particular problem, I used to tell him before getting out of the door not to run and if he started running I used to grab him and spank him, bring him in the store room and have him repeat after me "I will not run, if I do I will be run over by a car" - for about 5 minutes. Kind of like shock therapy if you will. It took a better part of the month to finally make him stop doing that.

On the other hand, my daughter is emotional type and generally understands why she is being told something and most times follows it without trouble. But like any kid some times she doesn't listen and spank makes it worse - but if I show her that I am disappointed or become visibly upset she will say sorry and stop doing whatever she was doing wrong. That works because she has a sense of understanding and sense of danger - she is very cautious about new surroundings or equipment unlike my son.

So I guess whatever measure works should be used while making sure the kids don't suffer a lot from what measures you are consciously choosing to take.

[Sehnsucht]

Not crazy about the idea of having kids (especially when they're young, newborn babies) but seeing as how I'm nearly 21, that may not be too far off...

Do I believe in hitting my kids? If I had any, the answer would be no. Corporal punishment? Yeah, there's a difference there.

That's exactly what's would happen if I were to one day catch my 13-year-old daughter on the couch or bed on top of/underneath a boy. I'll have none of that s***, thank you. :eek:

[Rodimus Prime]

It seems people find studies to support what ever they want.

For me my view of spanking is a when it happens thing. It is not come here and get a spanking it more if I caught my kid doing it right then they will get it. No bending them over but in mid act.
I think in this world we have gone to PC and let kids get away with way to much. the PC way to go is some how think of kids as little adults. Hate to break it to those idiots but kids are not little adults. They lack the reasoning ability of an adult.

I think spanking is fine for up to age 5-6 after that the kid has gained reasoning ability that other forms would start working. But the spanking has to be caught in the act so the kid will relate said act with pain.

[MyDesktopBroke]

And we all wish we could be as perfect as you! :rolleyes:
Maybe you think it's impossible for someone to act this way, maybe because you did not? As I said, my parents treated me with respect my entire life, so I returned the favor.
I'm pretty sure this is where a lot of parents go wrong, actually. Little children are your responsibility, not your best friend. At a certain point you have to tell them what to do, be their guide and mentor not their best pal. I think that a lot of parents have trouble telling their children they did something wrong because they're too worried about being their kids' best buddy and scared that their children will resent them for something.
I don't deny you have to keep your children in line, set the rules for them, and take responsibility. You'd tell your best friend if they did something stupid for their own good, would you not?
But I refuse to accept the idea that violence is ever the only way out, judging from first hand experience with violent parents I see. As someone else said, kids are not "little adults," and not fully developed yet. If anything, using violence during the formative years is worse than later on because it establishes violence as an acceptable part of life.

Mom and Dad use violence to solve problems, why can't I?
Hey, that guy is annoying me! What did mom do? Oh, yah, use violence!

I could post about 2 or 3 dozen links to studies that link abuse during early years to serial killers and robbers and teenage crime, but I doubt anyone would regard it or even read any of it.

[toolbox]

I believe is was as a kid, sometimes by hand or the wooden spoon lol i remember them breaking on impact. One time i did something bad and my dad chased me with a star picket dunno what i did all i know i ran like hell

Now my parents tend to whinge more ( i am 22 brother 21 so no chance of smacking) and no kids here yet!

[MegaMillions]

I couldn't find morbs post but please refer to megas post.

"I wasn't hit as a kid and I was never badly behaved, treat and talk to your kids like small adults and they'll act like adults, they'll just pick up your behaviours."

[MegaMillions]

What the!?!? Are you saying (because it's what I'm reading) that no child should ever be punished for any reason, no matter what they have done? They should just do what they do (even if very bad) and the parents shouldn't do anything in return?! Are you seriously that mental?

NOOO!!!!! That is not what i'm saying at all!!!

What i'm saying is, kids do what they do for a REASON. Find out what that REASON is, and then you know how to prevent it! It's the same as ANY OTHER PROBLEM, ANYWHERE!

If your computer doesn't start up, what can you do until you know why? Do you kick your computer when it doesn't start up, or do you try and find out why so that you can fix it? I guess some people kick their computers, but not many. Most people would rather find out: Is it the Ram? Is the power plugged in? etc.

If you know WHY the kid did what they did, then you can easily prevent it/fix it.

People would rather instead just say "What they're doing is wrong! They should be punished!" No, they shouldn't. They should be listened to and understood, nurtured, respected, and they will never "misbehave."

[bruinsrme]

"I wasn't hit as a kid and I was never badly behaved, treat and talk to your kids like small adults and they'll act like adults, they'll just pick up your behaviours."

All I know is I had a lot of enjoyable moments when I was a kid.
Not all of them were deserving of a gold star on my forehead but a a good spanking.
My parents did a great job but I surely didn't make it easy for them.
My parents could have beaten the crap out of me to prevent me from doing something unsafe. If I was determined to do something it was gonna happen jsut to prove them wrong. That never happened though :eek:

Like I said my brother was completely opposite than me. I don't ever recall him ever getting the belt or hand.

[Phil A.]

BTW, I'd love you to try to rationalize with a 2 year old who is throwing their toys around the living room just because they can.

Actually, you can rationalize with a two year old if you do it properly: My daughter is coming up to 11 and I have never and would never spank or hit her. She is one of the best behaved and best adjusted kids I've ever seen and never misbehaves.
I firmly believe the reason for this is that when she was a lot younger and was naughty, instead of spanking her, I'd sit down with her and calmly explain why what she was doing was wrong and the possible effect of what she was doing would have on other people. Making her face up to the consequences of her actions was, IMO, a far better way of instilling values of decency and right and wrong than hitting her. If you treat someone with respect, they'll respond a lot better!
When I was at school, corporal punishment was still the norm and if you were caught fighting you got the cane. I could never understand how me hitting someone with my fist was wrong but an adult hitting me with a big stick was right...

[Dagless]

NOOO!!!!! That is not what i'm saying at all!!!

What i'm saying is, kids do what they do for a REASON. Find out what that REASON is, and then you know how to prevent it! It's the same as ANY OTHER PROBLEM, ANYWHERE!

If your computer doesn't start up, what can you do until you know why? Do you kick your computer when it doesn't start up, or do you try and find out why so that you can fix it? I guess some people kick their computers, but not many. Most people would rather find out: Is it the Ram? Is the power plugged in? etc.


Heh funny you should say this. My sisters PC needs kicking every so often (it's being replaced today actually) or else it turns itself off. I know how the insides work but I've gutted the PC and can't find the problem. But it behaves after a kick.
I guess that can apply to kids. Some kids are just brats. I know I was for years. But being smacked definitely had an impact on me and it worked, I was perfectly okay but I just liked to get into trouble. After a smack I was good.
But after 8, 9 or so there was never any smacking. Then they started to confiscate power leads to my TV and consoles. That was worse than actually taking the console because I could still see it!

Different strokes. And all that.


When I was at school, corporal punishment was still the norm and if you were caught fighting you got the cane. I could never understand how me hitting someone with my fist was wrong but an adult hitting me with a big stick was right...

Because one is needless fighting. It's competative and 1 on 1. But in punishment it's supposed to be a method of prevention "hey if I do this I'll get smacked/caned, I guess I won't do it".

[Phil A.]

Because one is needless fighting. It's competative and 1 on 1. But in punishment it's supposed to be a method of prevention "hey if I do this I'll get smacked/caned, I guess I won't do it".

Yeah, but that's the basic problem with smacking - it stops kids doing things for fear of the punishment instead of because it's wrong:
The aim should always be to get kids to think "I won't do this because it's wrong" not "I won't do this because I don't want the punishment"

[opinioncircle]

Well I voted yes, but I would only use it as a last resort kind of solution. I am not into spanking, but I don't want my kids to behave like the other children I see everyday, out of control. Sometimes I feel that some parents actually like to have kids out of their control so that other people will have to make a move in order to make them less annoying (in the movies, mall, airplane and such).

I've been spanked less than 10 times and believe that even though the threat can be scary, the fewer times you use it the more impact it has. That was the case for me...

[erickkoch]

Voted Yes.

I was spanked as a child and cannot think of a time where I didn't richly deserve it. I was a pretty obnoxious child at times and could not be reasoned with when I didn't get what I wanted.

If a child can be reasoned with then no spanking, but unfortunately that's not always the case.

[j26]

I've smacked my 4 year old 3 times - each time it was a (admittedly strong) smack on the hand to calm their hysterial fit. Unfortunately sometimes nothing else works.

It's a very rare sanction only used in the most extreme circumstances (e.g. she hit me in the face), not done in a fit of anger or pique, but as a deliberate tactic to get the situation resolved and begin normal discussion again - there's only so many thimes you can threaten the bold/naughty/baby step (4 year olds react very positively to threats of being treated like a baby:)).

To Phil A.
Sorry, but you try to teach a young child his or her own moral filters without a threat of sanction. We could go on a huge discussion about morality here, but the main point I'll make that that moral and behavioural codes are in the main based on sanction (e.g. religious morals - you might go to hell, legal codes - you go to jail, social codes - you face the displeasure of your peers/ostracism, parental discipline - withdrawal of treats/attention). Even parenting using treats as encouragement are using sanction, albeit positive sanction.

Not that I'm encouraging wholesale assault on kids, but the odd smack with clearly defined goals is no harm. The problem is drawing the line.

[dukebound85]

i was spanked for misbehaving

i had soap forced in my mouth after saying a poor choice of words

i have no problem with disciplining my child. imo, its needed if they misbehave.


if you ask my parents and grandparents, they use to get belted.

[bamaworks]

That's just utter nonsense. You're not born knowing right and wrong, you're taught it. Of course it is for the parent to decide.

You took the thought right out of my head.

[iGary]

I was spanked maybe a half-dozen times as a kid, and very deservedly so. It was an effective punishment that worked. I never did those behaviors again and there was no lasting psychological impact that I can tell.

In my teens, my dad put me in a headlock once and tossed me around a bit, which I considered out of bounds, even for what I had done. That's over the top.

That said, I'd occasionally use spanking (not a beating) to correct a bad behavior if I had children.

[designgeek]

I was one of those kids that understood the threat and that's as far as it got. There are, in this world, some kids that need to be hit occasionally. I've seen parents some places (and I'm not privy to the whole situation) and they're saying "Calm down Tommy, don't do that," while the kid is climbing grocery store shelves, throwing things, etc. That kid might need to be dragged into the parking lot and smacked around a bit. I would take a logical approach to the situation, but I was a very logical kid (nerd). I don't really feel right and wrong with joy or guilt, but more like binary, true or false.

If I had kids I'd use any kind of violence as a last resort for an action horrendously stupid/hurtful. My parents were screamers, we do the loud thing best.;)

[jdechko]

I consider spanking to be an appropriate punishment that is used in conjunction and/or coordination with other punishments. However, spanking is almost always used only when other methods have failed, except for certain circumstances. Biting, for instance, often results in an instant slap as that behavior is never appropriate. But for the most part a time out, removal of privileges (toys, sweet snacks), or a pinch on the back of the leg is enough to correct the behavior.

My wife and I have even let a few of our friends spank our son, but the reason for that was because our son was in daycare over at their house. It also requires that you have a mutual trust and respect for your friends and their families.

The only thing that I don't like is getting looks from other people when I spank my son in a public or semi-public place. I usually try to go to the bathroom or car so as not to disturb other patrons, but we definitely get some looks. These are not beatings, and are the result of the failure of alternate means. This happened last weekend when we went out with some friends for dinner--had to take him outside twice for misbehaving, but I don't want to be one of those parents*.

Alternatively, a well-placed pinch to the back of the leg can achieve the same results with no visible spanking. ;)

* Parents who will let their child run around while being engrossed in whatever it is they're doing.

[Zombie Acorn]

[non-parent]

Its all about the boundaries and respect. I would hit my kid, but only in a controlled manner outside of public and when I was calm. Trust me, the time waiting to get punished is much worse than the actual punishment for kids. I still remember and I was a habitual line stepper.

Parents who punish their kids in anger or in public actually look like they are at the level of the children. It only takes one time for the kid to get pulled out of the restaurant to know they aren't going to pull that **** again.

[skunk]

Calculated, measured, deferred and scheduled violence is far worse in my opinion than an instantaneous prophylactic clip.

[Rt&Dzine]

If absolutely necessary, a whack or two on the butt is effective.

[opinioncircle]

[non-parent]

Its all about the boundaries and respect. I would hit my kid, but only in a controlled manner outside of public and when I was calm. Trust me, the time waiting to get punished is much worse than the actual punishment for kids. I still remember and I was a habitual line stepper.

Parents who punish their kids in anger or in public actually look like they are at the level of the children. It only takes one time for the kid to get pulled out of the restaurant to know they aren't going to pull that **** again.

Agreed. It doesn't have to be on a public setting to be effective.