Human ignorance and Irony? Immigration issues

[TK2K]

So last weekend I was down in CT with my mom's relatives, they're all exceedingly rich, own large houses, general upper class society life... long story short the topic of immigration came up over diner, there was the generic 'illegal immigration is ruining the country, drain on society, they don't work as hard as us americans' etc, you've heard it all before. After about a half hour I just had to add something which had been on my mind for a while.
Effectively what I said was this, 'look at all of you, half of you are irish, a third are jewish, a quarter are polish and the rest are russian, 100 years ago YOU were the 'dirty immigrants ruining america' there were 'too lazy to work' and 'leached off the system'. Your grandparents faced exactly the same kind of prejudice you are imposing upon latin american immigrants today!'

needless to say, that did not go over too well. Does anyone else see this happening? Am i just off the deep end on this one?

[thegoldenmackid]

Yeah... and then there was this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=743219) thread.

[Wotan31]

Am i just off the deep end on this one?
I think you are. There's a distinct difference between legal immigration, and illegal immigration.

Several of my friends are immigrants, having come to the US within the past decade. They are jumping through all the hoops, doing all the paperwork, going through all the proper legal processes do come to this country lawfully. They are also extremely pissed off at all the illegal immigrants who have dodged the whole process.

It has nothing to do with stereotypes, hard worker vs. lazy, or any other nonsense like that. Hispanics, Jews, Asians, whatever. Ethnicity is irrelevant.

The people sitting around your table who came from immigrant families - those families went through the legalization process, and also accepted American culture and lifestyle as their own. I.e. They became Americans.

These illegal immigrants entering the country, not only are they dodging the law, but they also have no vested interest in becoming American. They don't want any part of American culture or to integrate into society. They want society to adapt to them and their ways. When your Irish or Jewish ancestors came here, did the towns put up signs and billboards in Gaelic and Hebrew so they could understand them? No! They learned to speak English. When your Irish and Hebrew ancestors came to the US, they likely gave up everything they had, got on a ship knowing it was a one-way trip. Many of these central and south american immigrants couldn't give two craps about the US, they're just here for work. They would just as easily go back to their home countries if there were well paying jobs there.

Immigration is a good thing. Illegal immigration is quite bad, and a serious problem.

[Ugg]

Happens all the time with me. I'm working on a family history and focusing on the people who immigrated to North America between 1798 and 1891.

Just the use of the word, immigrant, is enough to make most people change the subject. IF the subject goes more in depth, invariably people will say, "Well, it was different back then." Of course, it was different but in ways that most people don't want to hear about. The rampant religious intolerance after the Revolution, the fact that Irish were not considered part of the "white" race, the blatant discrimination against non WASPs in the early 1900s, the Chinese Exclusion Act, etc.

Unfortunately, the economic downturn is only going to make such blatant discrimination worse.

[Queso]

No! They learned to speak English.
But not Cherokee or Sioux? :p

If the USA still had the same policies that were in place when the OP's grandparents arrived there would be no need for illegal immigration. They'd all be allowed in anyway.

[TK2K]

But the whole thing about accepting american culture really wasn't true..


I mean, boston, new york, they all had whole irish districts, whole jewish districts, whole polish districts, I don't see how that's different from a mexican district or a Puerto rican district.

Okay, fair point about illegal immigration, but there are FAR more legal immigrants in new england then illegal due to the fact it's 2000 miles from the boarder. So I guess in this case i'm focusing more on legal immigration, but fair point about the 'right way' vs 'wrong way'

But not Cherokee or Sioux? :p

If the USA still had the same policies that were in place when the OP's grandparents arrived there would be no need for illegal immigration. They'd all be allowed in anyway.

sorry, i just have to post this
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/national_language.jpg

[Tomorrow]

..what I said was this, 'look at all of you, half of you are irish, a third are jewish, a quarter are polish and the rest are russian, 100 years ago YOU were the 'dirty immigrants ruining america' there were 'too lazy to work' and 'leached off the system'. Your grandparents faced exactly the same kind of prejudice you are imposing upon latin american immigrants today!'

That depends - are your mother's family members here legally? Do they pay taxes, and generally contribute to society?

Leeching the system is receiving benefits for which you pay no taxes. Many, if not all, illegal immigrants pay no taxes, but are happy to send their kids to public schools, get their health care for free at the county hospital, etc.

I see both types here in Texas - immigrants who apply for visas, work legally, pay taxes, etc.; and those who work "under the table" and "leech" as you put it. The first group doesn't bother me at all; I have problems with the second group.

But this raises an even bigger issue - that there are plenty of U.S.-born American citizens who fall into that second group. To me, the only difference between these and the immigrants is that one can be deported, and the other we're stuck with.

I have no problem with people coming into the country legally (i.e. obeying the law), working, paying taxes, and contributing - whether they're citizens or not.

[Scepticalscribe]

sorry, i just have to post this
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/national_language.jpg

Very very good, and all too true. I agree with your original post and don't think you are "off the deep end" at all; actually, you have made a very valid point about how former outsiders, over time, have sometimes integrated so well that they have acquired, or adopted the prejudices of those whose ancestors discrimminated against them a century or so earlier.

Cheers and good luck

[Ugg]

When your Irish or Jewish ancestors came here, did the towns put up signs and billboards in Gaelic and Hebrew so they could understand them? No! They learned to speak English. When your Irish and Hebrew ancestors came to the US, they likely gave up everything they had, got on a ship knowing it was a one-way trip. Many of these central and south american immigrants couldn't give two craps about the US, they're just here for work. They would just as easily go back to their home countries if there were well paying jobs there.

Immigration is a good thing. Illegal immigration is quite bad, and a serious problem.

You're woefully ignorant of late 19th and early 20th century immigration. The Little Italys, Chinatowns, mini Dublins, etc, didn't just spring up for marketing purposes but were a result of mostly illiterate people who couldn't function in their own language, much less in a foreign one. Those ghettos had signs in their respective languages and for the lucky few who were literate, newspapers in their native languages.

Many of them really didn't give a crap about the US either. Many did return to their native countries. Italians and Finns were at the top of the list. After the race laws kicked in early in the 1900s, many immigrants came illegally through Canada or the Caribbean.

What this country needs is a reasonable approach to immigration, not one that is punitive.

[NT1440]

Rich folks complaining that the poor immigrants are ruining society?? Who'da thunk it? :rolleyes:

I hate that it appears that its often more of a rich vs poor conflict than one over actual issues.

[TK2K]

Rich folks complaining that the poor immigrants are ruining society?? Who'da thunk it? :rolleyes:

I hate that it appears that its often more of a rich vs poor conflict than one over actual issues.

But it's not always, success of newly immigrated minorities is usually 'blamed' on affirmative action or something like that, which still implies lazyness etc.

[localoid]

If only the American Indians had given thought to implementing stricter immigration policies sometime in the early-1500s...

http://localoid.googlepages.com/Map_American_Indian_Tribes.jpg

[Dagless]

I guess it's just the illegal vs legal debate. And you're talking about the US system which has no impact on me and I know nothing about so, cheerio.

[opinioncircle]

Well I am witnessing first hand how tough the US immigration policies are. That's why I can "sort of" understand illegal immigration for people seeking to be in the US without the means that I have (knowledge and financial mainly).

However I hope President Obama won't regularize all the unlawful immigrants. If he does so, I will not pursue legal immigration ways. What's the point? I have paid taxes to the IRS, gone through unnameable background checks, waited hundred of hours whether at the US embassies, or at the US airports and all of this so that some illegal dude can just be in the US and become a lawful citizen?!! That's just BS to me period.

I am willing and able to take the long path to get where I want to get, but I don't want anybody else that doesn't walk with me to get there first...

Immigration in a conversation is like religion or politics to me, you'll always feel some people just don't understand anything...

[DELLsFan]

I think you are. There's a distinct difference between legal immigration, and illegal immigration.

Several of my friends are immigrants, having come to the US within the past decade. They are jumping through all the hoops, doing all the paperwork, going through all the proper legal processes do come to this country lawfully. They are also extremely pissed off at all the illegal immigrants who have dodged the whole process.

It has nothing to do with stereotypes, hard worker vs. lazy, or any other nonsense like that. Hispanics, Jews, Asians, whatever. Ethnicity is irrelevant.

The people sitting around your table who came from immigrant families - those families went through the legalization process, and also accepted American culture and lifestyle as their own. I.e. They became Americans.

These illegal immigrants entering the country, not only are they dodging the law, but they also have no vested interest in becoming American. They don't want any part of American culture or to integrate into society. They want society to adapt to them and their ways. When your Irish or Jewish ancestors came here, did the towns put up signs and billboards in Gaelic and Hebrew so they could understand them? No! They learned to speak English. When your Irish and Hebrew ancestors came to the US, they likely gave up everything they had, got on a ship knowing it was a one-way trip. Many of these central and south american immigrants couldn't give two craps about the US, they're just here for work. They would just as easily go back to their home countries if there were well paying jobs there.

Immigration is a good thing. Illegal immigration is quite bad, and a serious problem.

I couldn't have responded any better. +1

[NT1440]

These illegal immigrants entering the country, not only are they dodging the law, but they also have no vested interest in becoming American. They don't want any part of American culture or to integrate into society. They want society to adapt to them and their ways. When your Irish or Jewish ancestors came here, did the towns put up signs and billboards in Gaelic and Hebrew so they could understand them? No! They learned to speak English. When your Irish and Hebrew ancestors came to the US, they likely gave up everything they had, got on a ship knowing it was a one-way trip. Many of these central and south american immigrants couldn't give two craps about the US, they're just here for work. They would just as easily go back to their home countries if there were well paying jobs there.

Immigration is a good thing. Illegal immigration is quite bad, and a serious problem.

Its people with this mindset that I hate. "Why can't they become more like me! a real American."

Most of these people are working their asses off day in and out (and contributing to things such as sales tax while receiving nothing themselves) only to send any money they make to their families so they can scrape by an existence. People act like illegal immigrants just want to get around the rules when most of the time, they are just trying to survive in the world.

[mgguy]

Its people with this mindset that I hate. "Why can't they become more like me! a real American."

Most of these people are working their asses off day in and out (and contributing to things such as sales tax while receiving nothing themselves) only to send any money they make to their families so they can scrape by an existence. People act like illegal immigrants just want to get around the rules when most of the time, they are just trying to survive in the world.

All of these people are breaking federal law and many are committing felonies by not responding to deportation orders or coming back after deportation. Many are working very hard, but many are not working at all and are drawing on education, health care, municipal, and other services. While they do by necessity pay sales tax, they are generally not paying income taxes and other forms of taxes. They are also sending back money to their country of origin, so a lot of their income is not cycling back into our economy. They may be just trying to survive in the world, but that can also be said of thieves, burglars, shoplifters, poachers, and other types of lawbreakers.

[DELLsFan]

Its people with this mindset that I hate. "Why can't they become more like me! a real American."

Most of these people are working their asses off day in and out (and contributing to things such as sales tax while receiving nothing themselves) only to send any money they make to their families so they can scrape by an existence. People act like illegal immigrants just want to get around the rules when most of the time, they are just trying to survive in the world.

Hate, eh? Interesting. You sound like you know first-hand what you're talking about ... but I should think the residents of CA, AZ, and TX are more familiar with the problems imported with these desperate, hard-working "survivors" than you or I. I'll bet the hospitals and police departments are keenly aware of the problems.

We are a nation of immigrants, yes. We are also a nation of laws, yes - laws. There are procedures to follow to emigrate to the U.S. Follow them and obey our other laws, and I have no problem with you coming to my country to make a better life for yourself and your family.

Sneak across the border to break our laws, hurt my family or friends, smuggle your drugs, and suck off the teat of our health, welfare and other social programs at my expense, and I have a problem with you and the scumbag employer who is exploiting you, me, and our system to save a few bucks.

We are a Melting Pot of varying ethnicities and cultures who should want to be Americans; not some mosaic of independent cultures; of hyphenated-Americans unwilling to assimilate, unwilling to speak English, and unwilling to respect the time-honored and tested traditions and laws that make the USA a great place to live!

I truly believe that surrendering our heritage and time-honored, common values to those unwilling to respect America and Americans has become a political tool and pathetic talking point to those who could care less about our history and its lessons. Under the guise of compassion and tolerance (for miscreants mainly), it seems to me we are being subverted from within by politicians and liberal policies that do nothing but give more power and control to the state. Amnesty to illegal immigrants means more votes and more power and control for a liberal, democratic party. The party is motivated to keep an immigrant and the rest of the electorate dependent on said state through its billions of dollars spent on compassionate entitlement programs.

Meanwhile, our hospitals, health care system, border patrol, police, border towns, and our very souls are under attack - slowly being drained of money, life, liberty, and other pursuits the founders forged for us long ago. Yeah, I'm a proud American and I "hate" to see this happening under compassionate banners of "Change". YMMV. :cool:

[InvalidUserID]

Being in California, I'm all too familiar with illegal immigrants. Before I get too far in, I'd like to point out that I'm not too far removed from being new to this country as I'm a third-generation American.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy into the whole "they are just trying to have a better life" or "they aren't hurting anyone" ideology. I remember a year or so ago, seeing some rallies on the evening news for allowing illegals to stay, go unpunished and given an avenue to citizenship. One woman said, and it just stuck in my mind, "I know what we're doing is wrong, but we won't stop because we just want a better life". Well, yeah...so does everyone else. I'd love to be rich but you don't see me robbing a bank. I'd love to have the car my neighbor does but you don't see me stealing his car.

They are harming those who are trying to enter this country legally by circumventing the system. This would be like someone just cutting in front of you in the grocery line. As someone posted previously, why do things the right way when others aren't following the same rules?

Personally, I don't like the way California has gone the past few years. More and more, I'm seeing more people who don't speak English and are disappointed when I say I don't speak Spanish. I don't enjoy having to press 1 to speak to someone in English. And I don't like the idea that some of my tax dollars are going to people who shouldn't be benefiting from them.


While I do believe deeply in legal immigration, I have no sympathy for illegals. Call me a bad person, fine. My feeling is, if you are here illegally, get out. I don't want you here. I don't care about your situation, your story or what. If you want to be here, get in line and do the right thing. Others before you with harder lives and just as sad stories have done it the right way, so should you.

[Tomorrow]

I am willing and able to take the long path to get where I want to get, but I don't want anybody else that doesn't walk with me to get there first...

Precisely why I don't like some of the ideas being bantered about under the guise of "immigration reform." Bending over and allowing everyone already here illegally to stay here legally is taking the easy way out, throwing in the towel, and slapping about the face everyone who has gone through the process and tried to come here legally, and played by all the rules.

Most of these people are working their asses off day in and out (and contributing to things such as sales tax while receiving nothing themselves) only to send any money they make to their families so they can scrape by an existence.

Unfortunately, it's legal to send money out of the country. It's harmful to our economy; it's more beneficial if the money earned here is also spent here. The fundamental mechanism of a healthy economy is the volume of money changing hands, and the number of times it changes hands. When the money leaves the country that process stops completely.

One radical idea to help curb illegal immigration - make sending money out of the country illegal to non-citizens. If you want to take money out of the country, on your person, go ahead - then brave your way trying to get back in, if you like. It would cut back on the number of people trying to enter illegally by taking away a large incentive.

People act like illegal immigrants just want to get around the rules when most of the time, they are just trying to survive in the world.

"Get around the rules" = "break the law" = "illegal."

We're fine with legal immigration. Illegal immigrants, by definition, are breaking the law.

[Queso]

Personally, I don't like the way California has gone the past few years. More and more, I'm seeing more people who don't speak English and are disappointed when I say I don't speak Spanish. I don't enjoy having to press 1 to speak to someone in English. And I don't like the idea that some of my tax dollars are going to people who shouldn't be benefiting from them.
Unbelievable! You are complaining about having to speak Spanish in a state named by the Spanish, where virtually all the place names are Spanish, and which was Spanish territory for twice as long as its been part of the United States!!

You are the one forcing your language onto the locals, not the other way round :rolleyes:

[opinioncircle]

Unbelievable! You are complaining about having to speak Spanish in a state named by the Spanish, where virtually all the place names are Spanish, and which was Spanish territory for twice as long as its been part of the United States!!

You are the one forcing your language onto the locals, not the other way round :rolleyes:

You have a point. However California is part the United States, which language is English. I believe that the Little Italys and such have had a bad influence on the overall American society. Even though I see that immigrants had to feel a little at home with people from their home country, I do think that it doesn't really serve the purpose of living in such a melting pot as the US.
When you see people in SF who aren't able to speak English (AT ALL by the way), and live by speaking Japanese or Korean, I find that the whole "we're a nation of immigrants idea" is a little false. But that's just my $.02

[Queso]

You have a point. However California is part the United States, which language is English.
1) Thanks to history, there are over 35 million US citizens who have Spanish as their first language.
2) Most of the western United States used to be Northern Mexico.
3) The USA does not have an official language.

Canada accommodates multiple languages without skipping a beat. Why does the USA have such an issue with this?

EDIT : BTW, you may want to read this (http://www.sos.ca.gov/archives/level3_const1849txt.html) document from 1849. Article XI Section 21. California was a bilingual state from the very beginning.

[it5five]

Hate, eh? Interesting. You sound like you know first-hand what you're talking about ... but I should think the residents of CA, AZ, and TX are more familiar with the problems imported with these desperate, hard-working "survivors" than you or I. I'll bet the hospitals and police departments are keenly aware of the problems.

AZ resident here. If I had the choice, I'd rather kick out all of the people with your mentality rather than the undocumented immigrants. The only problems I have with them are related to the racist reaction brought out in people like our Sheriff and his supporters.

[InvalidUserID]

Unbelievable! You are complaining about having to speak Spanish in a state named by the Spanish, where virtually all the place names are Spanish, and which was Spanish territory for twice as long as its been part of the United States!!

You are the one forcing your language onto the locals, not the other way round :rolleyes:

Yes, and? As pointed out, California is part of the United States, not Mexico. For me, that trumps everything else including history.

Don't worry though cheese, California will soon enough be indistinguishable from Mexico as the population of hispanics is set to overtake whites within the next 10 years or so (if I remember correctly from a recent report, it may even be sooner).

Once that happens, I'll be more than happy to move closer to my relatives in Hawaii where illegals are far and few between.

[DELLsFan]

AZ resident here. If I had the choice, I'd rather kick out all of the people with your mentality rather than the undocumented immigrants. The only problems I have with them are related to the racist reaction brought out in people like our Sheriff and his supporters.

Racist? Oh sure - AZ is just filled with racists ... You've got such a big problem with them, one wonders how any of you can leave your homes without being accosted! :eek: In fact, one wonders how the US could have possibly elected its first black president amidst such rampant racism! Great point! :rolleyes:

No, forgive me, I'm sure I just misunderstood you. Surely, you aren't suggesting all the free-thinking, law abiding people in your state (I use the expression loosely) should just go away and let lawlessness and crime go unabated? You surely don't approve of rampant disregard of the rule of law and of the emigration policies established for the United States of America do you? You can't possibly be blind to what all those missing "documents" are doing to US Hospitals along the AZ border, can you? Oh, wait a minute. Your profile location tag suggests you may have some ulterior motives influencing your opinion(s). :rolleyes:

"Unfortunately", reclassifying illegal immigrants as "undocumented" doesn't make them legal or justify their actions ... yet ... But, you probably know all this and choose to bad mouth anything remotely associated with America and its laws and history, don't you? You probably can't wait until the American government forgives and forgets all the crimes and offenses perpetrated by the "undocumented" immigrants living in your state, can you? :rolleyes:

I'll tell you what, since you "unfortunately" are still located in the US, why don't you seek your "fortune" in Mexico or Canada - perhaps the better places for you to live than in that racist state of AZ? :rolleyes:

[it5five]

Actually, Phoenix is filled with racists, in my opinion. A sheriff that openly associates with neo-nazis has managed to get re-elected multiple times, under the guise of "fighting illegal immigration". He is being investigated right now for breaking civil rights laws, and yet, the guy is loved here. Mesa, a city in the metro-area, is home to many neo-nazi organizations.

In fact, one wonders how the US could have possibly elected its first black president amidst such rampant racism! Great point! :rolleyes:

Arizona went to McCain in the election, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

[Queso]

Once that happens, I'll be more than happy to move closer to my relatives in Hawaii where illegals are far and few between.
The sad thing is you truly believe California will miss you, don't you? :p

[InvalidUserID]

The sad thing is you truly believe California will miss you, don't you? :p

And you got that from my post where exactly?

[Axl Rose]

Being in California, I'm all too familiar with illegal immigrants. Before I get too far in, I'd like to point out that I'm not too far removed from being new to this country as I'm a third-generation American.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy into the whole "they are just trying to have a better life" or "they aren't hurting anyone" ideology. I remember a year or so ago, seeing some rallies on the evening news for allowing illegals to stay, go unpunished and given an avenue to citizenship. One woman said, and it just stuck in my mind, "I know what we're doing is wrong, but we won't stop because we just want a better life". Well, yeah...so does everyone else. I'd love to be rich but you don't see me robbing a bank. I'd love to have the car my neighbor does but you don't see me stealing his car.

They are harming those who are trying to enter this country legally by circumventing the system. This would be like someone just cutting in front of you in the grocery line. As someone posted previously, why do things the right way when others aren't following the same rules?

Personally, I don't like the way California has gone the past few years. More and more, I'm seeing more people who don't speak English and are disappointed when I say I don't speak Spanish. I don't enjoy having to press 1 to speak to someone in English. And I don't like the idea that some of my tax dollars are going to people who shouldn't be benefiting from them.

Illegals also make it harder for Residents to get jobs.


While I do believe deeply in legal immigration, I have no sympathy for illegals. Call me a bad person, fine. My feeling is, if you are here illegally, get out. I don't want you here. I don't care about your situation, your story or what. If you want to be here, get in line and do the right thing. Others before you with harder lives and just as sad stories have done it the right way, so should you.

I live in California(OC) too and i agree with everything you just said....my job at fast food....its hard for me to understand what my fellow employees are saying because they all speak Spanish, and i feel like the minority.. which i don't like at all...i really dont like that feel i need to know spanish.

[Queso]

I live in California(OC) too and i agree with everything you just said....my job at fast food....its hard for me to understand what my fellow employees are saying because they all speak Spanish, and i feel like the minority.. which i don't like at all...i really dont like that feel i need to know spanish.
So rather than you, just you, one person, having to speak a second language, you'd rather force everybody else there too?

[Axl Rose]

So rather than you, just you, one person, having to speak a second language, you'd rather force everybody else there too?

Yes, here where English is the official language, yes. This is coming from a Hispanic. Know Spanish shouldn't be a requirement(or at least feel like one) in america.

[skunk]

Know Spanish shouldn't be a requirement(or at least feel like one) in america.How about knowing English?

[Axl Rose]

How about knowing English?

This is an english speaking country, so yes.

[skunk]

<whoosh>

[Axl Rose]

Grand argument you got there.:rolleyes:

[skunk]

"Human Ignorance and Irony", eh?

[Axl Rose]

So what you're saying is I should know spanish, while living in the US.

[skunk]

That would seem to be a good idea, at least so that you could communicate properly with the scum you are forced to work with.

[Axl Rose]

That would seem to be a good idea, at least so that you could communicate properly with the scum you are forced to work with.

Haha, well, they came to this country, they should learn our language.

Not the other way around.

[skunk]

Actually, as pointed out earlier, you are in their country.

[Queso]

Haha, well, they came to this country, they should learn our language.

Not the other way around.
Read back through the thread. California has had a large proportion of Spanish speakers ever since the first Europeans set foot there.

And once again, the United States of America does not have an official language.

So what you're saying is I should know spanish, while living in the US.
Not necessarily. But you should quit whining if you can't understand what others are saying.

[Axl Rose]

Actually, as pointed out earlier, you are in their country.

No i am not, i live in California, not some mexifornia bullcrap, tough luck if there country cant hold on to there land, i don't give a crap. This is america and we speak English.

[Peterkro]

Somebody throw the towel in FFS I can't look at this anymore.

[skunk]

This is america and we speak English.Oh, the irony is exquisite!

[iBlue]

It's okay, skunk. I grinned.


You know, I don't think I ever minded having to learn a bit of Spanish when I was living in southern California, it was just what you should do to communicate better. I know a lot of people resented it (thinking Mexicans were taking over :rolleyes: ) but frankly most of the mexicans I've known were harder workers than most americans I've known. Maybe that's what they resented most. *shrug*

Wotan31's post very effectively summed up my own thoughts on illegal immigration. Mostly though I think those people are coming over to do the jobs that most 'citizens' don't really want to do. Now that there are fewer jobs to be had, people's standards appear to have lowered and they want those jobs back for themselves. Oh how opinions change when the struggle to survive is your own.

[Axl Rose]

I know we don't technically have an official language and all that, but the fact is, people should know how to speak english if they want to live here.

[skunk]

Somebody throw the towel in FFS I can't look at this anymore.Could we have that in Maori, please? :)

[BoyBach]

No i am not, i live in California, not some mexifornia bullcrap, tough luck if there country cant hold on to there land, i don't give a crap. This is america and we speak English.


"***** yeah..."

182562

[Queso]

Could we have that in Maori, please? :)
Only if you ask the question in Welsh :p

[skunk]

Only if you ask the question in Welsh :pCatalan is close enough, isn't it?

[Queso]

Catalan is close enough, isn't it?
Bona sort amb aquel :D

(For the benefit of our Californian posters, that means "Good luck with that" ;))

[opinioncircle]

1) Thanks to history, there are over 35 million US citizens who have Spanish as their first language.
2) Most of the western United States used to be Northern Mexico.
3) The USA does not have an official language.

Canada accommodates multiple languages without skipping a beat. Why does the USA have such an issue with this?

EDIT : BTW, you may want to read this (http://www.sos.ca.gov/archives/level3_const1849txt.html) document from 1849. Article XI Section 21. California was a bilingual state from the very beginning.

Simply because Canada has two official languages...I do think that having two languages is not good, it separates the country period.
If Spanish was even to be considered as a national language, EVERYTHING would have to be translated in Spanish (as it is in French in Canada). Is that the case? Of course not, that's why English is the "unofficial" language of the US.

And what's 35 Mil/360MIl? Not the majority...

[NT1440]

I know we don't technically have an official language and all that, but the fact is, people should know how to speak english if they want to live here.

Care to explain why? Is the language you speak somehow more important than the others?

You sound like the kind of American that makes me ashamed to be an American.

[Queso]

And what's 35 Mil/360MIl? Not the majority...
But nearly all of those 35 million are concentrated into just a few states. It would make no sense for the likes of Vermont or North Dakota to adopt Spanish as an official language, but in states such as New Mexico where over 40% of the population speak Spanish it most certainly would.

BTW, as we're talking about California the US Census Bureau lists nearly 35% of California's population as Spanish speaking. That's over 12 million people.

[Peterkro]

Could we have that in Maori, please? :)

Even with Google I couldn't figure out throw in the towel but kua pau te hau is to give up the ghost which kind off means the same thing.(to my great shame what Maori I had I've mostly lost)

PS NZ has three official languages Maori,English and NZ signing.

[localoid]

How about knowing English?

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/buchanan.jpg

Under misspelled banner, Buchanan And "white nationalist" Brimelow argue for English-only initiatives (http://thinkprogress.org/2009/06/22/misspelled-english-buchanan/)

[PlaceofDis]

You have a point. However California is part the United States, which language is English. I believe that the Little Italys and such have had a bad influence on the overall American society. Even though I see that immigrants had to feel a little at home with people from their home country, I do think that it doesn't really serve the purpose of living in such a melting pot as the US.
When you see people in SF who aren't able to speak English (AT ALL by the way), and live by speaking Japanese or Korean, I find that the whole "we're a nation of immigrants idea" is a little false. But that's just my $.02

there is no national language because we are a country that is a 'melting pot' of cultures. English was just the language of the rich and powerful here when it was resettled by white people.

[localoid]

The U.S. "melting pot" theory is just one of many American myths (http://academics.eckerd.edu/instructor/griggscm/pel/american_myths/default.htm), authored by "the dominant culture".

Historian C. Vann Woodward wrote: "Every self-conscious group of any size fabricates myths about the past: about its origins, its mission, its righteousness, its benevolence, its general superiority." Americans are no exception.

See: Whiteness and the US melting pot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot#Whiteness_and_the_US_melting_pot)

[Axl Rose]

If learning Spanish ever becomes mandatory in school, then ill stop complaining, but as of now English is taught in school, and i dont think its to hard to to ask that a person learn it before immigrating here.

[CorvusCamenarum]

If learning Spanish ever becomes mandatory in school, then ill stop complaining, but as of now English is taught in school, and i dont think its to hard to to ask that a person learn it before immigrating here.

Learning English apparently isn't mandatory in a lot of schools here, either.

I do think it's rather ironic that monolingual American tourists overseas in non- English-speaking countries are derided, yet as soon as Juan swims across the river it's suddenly un-PC/evil racist American not to accommodate his lack of English.

[bobber205]

If learning Spanish ever becomes mandatory in school, then ill stop complaining, but as of now English is taught in school, and i dont think its to hard to to ask that a person learn it before immigrating here.

If I went to a country, say Japan, to live, I wouldn't expect them to learn English just for me.

However, this country is different. We're a country of immigrants so saying "too bad speak English" is not good policy. No one is promoting that immigrants shouldn't learn English at all...

[Axl Rose]

If I went to a country, say Japan, to live, I wouldn't expect them to learn English just for me.

However, this country is different. We're a country of immigrants so saying "too bad speak English" is not good policy. No one is promoting that immigrants shouldn't learn English at all...

Myabe..but i dont like the idea where i basically have to learn a different language to communicate with people i work with, it isnt like im working picking strawberries, im working a food place.

[.Andy]

Myabe..but i dont like the idea where i basically have to learn a different language to communicate with people i work with, it isnt like im working picking strawberries, im working a food place.
Embrace the experience. You'll be glad you did one day. There's absolutely no downside to learning another language.

[dukebound85]

i am trying to find the calvin and hobbes comic that adresses english as the should be official language lol

[Badandy]

Actually, as pointed out earlier, you are in their country.

Nope, it's ours.


I know, wonderful contribution to the thread.

[bobber205]

Myabe..but i dont like the idea where i basically have to learn a different language to communicate with people i work with, it isnt like im working picking strawberries, im working a food place.

If they're not putting in any effort to learn English, then I feel your pain. But you should at least try to learn what you need to. Don't be like them and refuse to learn another language (if that's what they're doing).

[iBlue]

Myabe..but i dont like the idea where i basically have to learn a different language to communicate with people i work with, it isnt like im working picking strawberries, im working a food place.

Generalize much? Picking strawberries. :rolleyes: No wonder you're having problems.
I've found that if I tried to speak Spanish that they made a bigger effort to communicate with me, in English. You get what you give in life most times.

[bobber205]

Generalize much? Picking strawberries. :rolleyes: No wonder you're having problems.
I've found that if I tried to speak Spanish that they made a bigger effort to communicate with me, in English. You get what you give in life most times.

Mexicans pick all kinds of products, including many varieties of fruits *and* vegetables! :D

[rhett7660]

Its people with this mindset that I hate. "Why can't they become more like me! a real American."

Most of these people are working their asses off day in and out (and contributing to things such as sales tax while receiving nothing themselves) only to send any money they make to their families so they can scrape by an existence. People act like illegal immigrants just want to get around the rules when most of the time, they are just trying to survive in the world.

Why do you hate? Because some people want others to embrace the english language (not saying forgo there own language) when they are in america? Why is this bad and why do you hate someone for this?

[LizKat]

If only the American Indians had given thought to implementing stricter immigration policies sometime in the early-1500s...

http://localoid.googlepages.com/Map_American_Indian_Tribes.jpg

LOL, yeah! :D I'd still be a descendant of British horse thieves but I'd be carrying a Brit passport instead of this one that says (surely it says somewhere in the fine print) that I invented America and American values. ;)

[opinioncircle]

But nearly all of those 35 million are concentrated into just a few states. It would make no sense for the likes of Vermont or North Dakota to adopt Spanish as an official language, but in states such as New Mexico where over 40% of the population speak Spanish it most certainly would.

BTW, as we're talking about California the US Census Bureau lists nearly 35% of California's population as Spanish speaking. That's over 12 million people.

Completely agree with you. The US is a union of states. Therefore there are some ground rules of some sort that goes like English is our primary language. How could you have an union when in some states you would have people speaking Spanish and others English? It's simple, there wouldn't be an union.

The Spanish-speaking population is about a tenth of the whole US population, I don't think it is OK to actually impose Spanish in some states.

I do think it's rather ironic that monolingual American tourists overseas in non- English-speaking countries are derided, yet as soon as Juan swims across the river it's suddenly un-PC/evil racist American not to accommodate his lack of English.

You make a huge assumption here man, don't mix tourists and full time residents...

[paddy]

Completely agree with you. The US is a union of states. Therefore there are some ground rules of some sort that goes like English is our primary language. How could you have an union when in some states you would have people speaking Spanish and others English? It's simple, there wouldn't be an union.

Yes, if there's one thing we've learned from history it's that no nation can function with more than one language. :rolleyes:

[dukebound85]

Its people with this mindset that I hate. "Why can't they become more like me! a real American."

Most of these people are working their asses off day in and out (and contributing to things such as sales tax while receiving nothing themselves) only to send any money they make to their families so they can scrape by an existence. People act like illegal immigrants just want to get around the rules when most of the time, they are just trying to survive in the world.

then do it legally:rolleyes:

yes, it is possible *gasp!!* whoda thunkit

[Wotan31]

then do it legally:rolleyes:

yes, it is possible *gasp!!* whoda thunkit
Exactly. Why is this such a difficult concept for some to grasp?

The US is one of the most immigrant friendly nations in the world. Many countries have such arcane and unusual immigrations laws that it's basically impossible. Switzerland for example. Citizenship there takes 12+ years, and they can deny you at any time, without telling you the reason! They don't want you! Dubai is another - it's basically impossible to become a citizen there unless you are born to citizen parents.

There are laws for a reason. "I just want a better life" is not an excuse for breaking them. Period.

[Wotan31]

Care to explain why? Is the language you speak somehow more important than the others?
In a word, YES. English is the language in which the laws are written, it's the language of the road signs on the streets, the language on the currency. If I were planning to move to Italy, I'd make a point of learning Italian. If I were planning to move to Guatemala, I'd make a point of learning Spanish. You can't function properly within a society if you don't speak the language. You've obviously never been outside of the US.

[dukebound85]

wotan, are you against this then?
spanish walmarts in az and tx (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bd371350-0f2c-11de-ba10-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1)

im not personally as english is not the official language. i dont view english as the most important language here either nor should it be. its against everything the USA stands for imo to say it is



i am however against illegal immigration as it is breaking the law. if one wants to live here, go through the proper channels and become a citizen legally

one cant argue any other way

[Wotan31]

wotan, are you against this then?
spanish walmarts in az and tx (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bd371350-0f2c-11de-ba10-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1)

im not personally as english is not the official language
Not against that at all. It has nothing to do with government or immigration law. That's a private business catering to their clientele. That doesn't excuse the patrons of that store from learning English though.

When I go to Chinatown I see stores and restaurants that don't have a word of English on them. Good for them, I don't want to change that. But I do expect all the people there to have at least a rudimentary grasp of the English language; (to their credit, that's always appeared to be the case).

Its people with this mindset that I hate.
So basically you're saying: "I'm sooo tolerant and compassionate - but I hate everyone who doesn't agree with me!!!!!11" :rolleyes: Typical elitist attitude for people of your type.

[Zombie Acorn]

I would have to jump through all types of hoops to immigrate to any other desirable country, why the hell should someone else just be able to do it illegally and get away with it? I have no problem with immigrants, my family came from Canada. Is the process hard? Yeh, but its hard for most other developed countries too.

[skunk]

In a word, YES. English is the language in which the laws are written, it's the language of the road signs on the streets, the language on the currency.Some of it is in Latin, isn't it?

[it5five]

The US is one of the most immigrant friendly nations in the world. Many countries have such arcane and unusual immigrations laws that it's basically impossible.

I typed a long response to this, but lost it when I accidentally quit my browser without posting, so here's the short version.

This is untrue. Compared to many other countries, the US has arcane and unusual immigration laws. I have researched other countries immigration laws since I would like to leave the United States, and in the course of that, have gained a basic understanding of a number of countries immigration systems.

Canada, for example, is much more immigrant friendly than the United States. Their system is points-based, and does not require employer sponsorship like the US does (although having that makes it easier). Other countries run off a points-system, like Australia and New Zealand, the UK seems to be moving toward a points-based system, Denmark has a greencard scheme that runs off of a points-based system. Points-based systems are always easier and more migrant-friendly.

Sure, when compared to Switzerland, the US system is friendly and easy, but there are plenty of other countries with an easier and more friendly immigration system.

[Axl Rose]

Generalize much? Picking strawberries. :rolleyes: No wonder you're having problems.
I've found that if I tried to speak Spanish that they made a bigger effort to communicate with me, in English. You get what you give in life most times.

What i meant by that is, if i were picking fruits like a lot of illegal works do(mostly Mexicans basically), id be more inclined to not care if they spoke Spanish only, but this is a legal job, not some under the desk or whatever the saying is, type of job

[NT1440]

So basically you're saying: "I'm sooo tolerant and compassionate - but I hate everyone who doesn't agree with me!!!!!11" :rolleyes: Typical elitist attitude for people of your type.

Yup wotan, thats exactly what I am, intolerant of the intolerant. I'm an elitist too because I want everyone to have an equal shot. :rolleyes:

As to your post about "America being one of the most immigrant friendly nations on earth" where exactly do you get your lies, are they made up, or are they spoon fed to you by someone in another reality?

[Wotan31]

As to your post about "America being one of the most immigrant friendly nations on earth" where exactly do you get your lies, are they made up, or are they spoon fed to you by someone in another reality?
Another brilliant retort!! At least you're consistent. ;)

[Badandy]

Yup wotan, thats exactly what I am, intolerant of the intolerant. I'm an elitist too because I want everyone to have an equal shot. :rolleyes:

As to your post about "America being one of the most immigrant friendly nations on earth" where exactly do you get your lies, are they made up, or are they spoon fed to you by someone in another reality?

To be honest, your location description under your username reeks of ignorance and insecurity about how you view yourself in relation to those people you categorize as "elitists".

[NT1440]

To be honest, your location description under your username reeks of ignorance and insecurity about how you view yourself in relation to those people you categorize as "elitists".

My location description was spawned of an inside joke.

[hulugu]

What i meant by that is, if i were picking fruits like a lot of illegal works do(mostly Mexicans basically), id be more inclined to not care if they spoke Spanish only, but this is a legal job, not some under the desk or whatever the saying is, type of job

So, as long as they do the kind of work you're unwilling to do and thereby not bother you with their barbarian babble, you're okay with immigrants speaking Spanish.
Or maybe I'm just don't understand your point.

Ultimately, the language issue is a red herring. English is one of the dominant languages on Earth spoken by ~ 400 million people as a first language with approximately another billion second-language speakers and is spoken in 115 countries.

Does anyone seriously think that English-only laws in say Arizona or Texas are going to matter at all in this regard?

I agree that most federal and state business should be conducted in English with translations available if necessary and appropriate, but a trip through the rest of the world will display that many countries are able to hang signage which has two or even (gasp!) three languages when needed.

More than anything, I think the demand to "speak English damnit!" stems from a discomfort with "the other" generated by our rather insulated relationship with the rest of the world. I'm not saying that language isn't important or indicative of place and culture, but that our panic about the presence of other languages in our culture represents a deep discomfort with the idea that someone doesn't think the way we do.

Also, it's rather ironic that English should be protected so considering its the linguistic equivalent of a litter of kittens.

[Axl Rose]

So, as long as they do the kind of work you're unwilling to do and thereby not bother you with their barbarian babble, you're okay with immigrants speaking Spanish.
Or maybe I'm just don't understand your point.

Ultimately, the language issue is a red herring. English is one of the dominant languages on Earth spoken by ~ 400 million people as a first language with approximately another billion second-language speakers and is spoken in 115 countries.

Does anyone seriously think that English-only laws in say Arizona or Texas are going to matter at all in this regard?

I agree that most federal and state business should be conducted in English with translations available if necessary and appropriate, but a trip through the rest of the world will display that many countries are able to hang signage which has two or even (gasp!) three languages when needed.

More than anything, I think the demand to "speak English damnit!" stems from a discomfort with "the other" generated by our rather insulated relationship with the rest of the world. I'm not saying that language isn't important or indicative of place and culture, but that our panic about the presence of other languages in our culture represents a deep discomfort with the idea that someone doesn't think the way we do.

Also, it's rather ironic that English should be protected so considering its the linguistic equivalent of a litter of kittens.

No what i meant was if the job is held by people who only speak spanish because theyre paid under the table, and came here illegally, then obviously i dont care if they arent speaking englsh, but i hold a real job, not some under the table ****, and they need to speak english there.

[Sdashiki]

how about this:

Should the citizenship test for American be in their native language?

Or, should it only be in English?

Or, should it be in English AND Spanish?


People gloss over this HUGE debate when talking about immigration, national language and all that crap.

[Badandy]

My location description was spawned of an inside joke.

I'm mostly talking about the class warfare-ish tone I've seen in a lot of your posts that show some hate towards the wealthy. The location name effectively reinforces that view, inside joke or not.

EDIT: Since there's no real evidence of your anti-wealthy diatribes in this thread and I don't want to go looking everywhere, the above statement is unimportant and I shouldn't have posted it. Mods can delete it if they feel so inclined.

[NT1440]

I'm mostly talking about the class warfare-ish tone I've seen in a lot of your posts that show some hate towards the wealthy. The location name effectively reinforces that view, inside joke or not.

EDIT: Since there's no real evidence of your anti-wealthy diatribes in this thread and I don't want to go looking everywhere, the above statement is unimportant and I shouldn't have posted it. Mods can delete it if they feel so inclined.

I don't hate the wealthy, I hate the wealthy that think they are above others and don't wish to help others with any amount of the resources they have available to them. Note that this isn't even close the majority of the wealthy, I know a good number of people who are well off that donate to charities and even make humanitarian trips to places such as kenya.

Don't feel bad about your posts, this is PRSI, if there is something that you feel needs to be said, say it.:)

[Badandy]

I don't hate the wealthy, I hate the wealthy that think they are above others and don't wish to help others with any amount of the resources they have available to them. Note that this isn't even close the majority of the wealthy, I know a good number of people who are well off that donate to charities and even make humanitarian trips to places such as kenya.

Don't feel bad about your posts, this is PRSI, if there is something that you feel needs to be said, say it.:)

Thanks, sorry for the unprovoked attack. I'm attempting to reform my ways on this board :)

[NT1440]

Thanks, sorry for the unprovoked attack. I'm attempting to reform my ways on this board :)

There is something that people on this board seriously need to get straight. Questioning someone on their thought process or motivations is not an attack, its merely discussion. I only consider something an attack when ill will is involved.

Cheers:)

[skunk]

I'm attempting to reform my ways on this board :)I, for one, have certainly noticed and appreciated that, Badandy.

[opinioncircle]

how about this:

Should the citizenship test for American be in their native language? No

Or, should it only be in English? Yes

Or, should it be in English AND Spanish? No


People gloss over this HUGE debate when talking about immigration, national language and all that crap.

I'm looking at actually applying for citizenship in the US in about 2 to 3 years from now. I speak 3 languages (not Spanish) and I do not want to be put in a position where I would have to learn a language only spoken by a tenth of the overall population of the country I'd like to live in.
It shouldn't be in my native language either for the sole reason that as an immigrant I'm going to try to find my life in the US and adapt my lifestyle, not some same version as my homeland only with Fox and MSNBC on the tubes as a difference.

[opinioncircle]

I don't hate the wealthy, I hate the wealthy that think they are above others and don't wish to help others with any amount of the resources they have available to them. Note that this isn't even close the majority of the wealthy, I know a good number of people who are well off that donate to charities and even make humanitarian trips to places such as kenya.

Don't feel bad about your posts, this is PRSI, if there is something that you feel needs to be said, say it.:)

Well there is a line that has to be drawn here to me. I'm all about helping others if you can back me up when I need help. From my personal experience, it is generally not the case (I hope the future will prove me wrong though).
I know some people going to Kenya to actually participate in such things. However a few of them are just there for the shine that it provides at a Long Island cocktail party in the late summer.