Stimulus II?????

[OCSpersonel]

comeon now, really????

not sure, correct me if im wrong, but havent we only spent 10% of the first one and its already"failing"???

and the worst part is, our government id FINALLY telling the truth that they didnt think the economy was so bad and they DIDNT know the stimulus would work how it has

stimulus 2:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/27452818/

prediction versus reality video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJu0DgpiK8c

can never be sure how true sources are but this is what iv found

[jav6454]

I oppose a second stimulus. I mean, many analysts says it's not working, and its being mainly used to help states ride it out with their budgets. I mean, its going to get hard out there, but I don't think putting the country into more debt is an answer, nor is putting this on the taxpayer.

[leekohler]

I oppose a second stimulus. I mean, many analysts says it's not working, and its being mainly used to help states ride it out with their budgets. I mean, its going to get hard out there, but I don't putting the country into more debt is an answer, nor is putting this on the taxpayer.

I agree- no second stimulus. We're going to have to suck it up. I think we have done what we can at this point. Kudos to Bush and Obama for trying though. We are going to have to let certain things fail. Let it all fail, and let's pick up the pieces and learn from it. I mean really, all politics aside- this needs to happen.

And when it does- no more partisan bickering. We need to work together to figure this out. The solution is neither right nor left, but somewhere in between.

[jav6454]

I agree- no second stimulus. We're going to have to suck it up. I think we have done what we can at this point. Kudos to Bush and Obama for trying though. We are going to have to let certain things fail. Let it all fail, and let's pick up the pieces and learn from it. I mean really, all politics aside- this needs to happen.

Agree. I mean, back in the 30s (before WW2) Roosevelt was going to face defeat also in midst of an economic crisis. His luck, shall I say, was that WW2 started and boosted American production of weapons and other manufactured goods.

I don't wish to sound like a death bringer, but the only solution to this mess is another great war. Heaven FORBIDS that happens. But as it is, we better tighten our pants.

[Rodimus Prime]

I going to agree again here. Big time considering how much pork was added in the first bill and still how much of that money STILL has not been spent. To me that tells me that our corrupted congress is just looking for more ways to get pet projects off the ground with little stoping them.

[OCSpersonel]

And when it does- no more partisan bickering. We need to work together to figure this out. The solution is neither right nor left, but somewhere in between.

I believe this kind of thinking is what america was founded on. Seriously, crazy governments that didnt respect the peoples views is what fueled the Freedom of this country, and we are voting for it to come back.

and i think that this last election was corrupt. on all sides. i mean how many people do you think could care less and voted Barrack in just because he was black. And from what i heard, no side or party was proposing something that was going to actually fix the majority of the problems we were facing, aside from the economy, the fact that the government was controlling more and more than they should everyday, and fighting each other each step of the way.

I personally believe that we were in a bit of a crisis when the last election came and people saw the symbol of hope and amazing change in Obama, as well as some did in McCain and i dont think we spent enough time thinking about what was right for the country

[opinioncircle]

I agree- no second stimulus. We're going to have to suck it up. I think we have done what we can at this point. Kudos to Bush and Obama for trying though. We are going to have to let certain things fail. Let it all fail, and let's pick up the pieces and learn from it. I mean really, all politics aside- this needs to happen.

And when it does- no more partisan bickering. We need to work together to figure this out. The solution is neither right nor left, but somewhere in between.

Couldn't agree more with you. However I don't see that partisan bickering thing going away, that's the saddest part.

You guys saw that AIG is asking for an additional $250 Mil?

[Rt&Dzine]

and i think that this last election was corrupt. on all sides. i mean how many people do you think could care less and voted Barrack in just because he was black.

How does that make an election corrupt? People have always voted for superficial reasons. They voted for Bush because he was "a guy I'd like to have a beer with."

[iPhoneNYC]

As long an unemployment remains high I think Obama has to keep pumping money in to help prop things up. If not, this thing could last a decade.

[SactoGuy18]

I have to say it again, but if we want to revive our economy and keep it reasonably safe, the Obama Administration needs to follow my suggested four-point plan of action:

1. Change our taxation system so it encourages personal savings and capital investment in the USA. We have WAY too much liquidity lost to the "underground economy" and legal funneling of liquid assets out of the country using tax loopholes--the amount of liquidity lost is estimated at WAY over US$10 trillion. And all of that liquidity lost is due to people wanting to reducing their tax burden.

2. Reign in exotic investments like hedge funds, default credit swaps, derivatives and other unregulated investments.

3. Increase the minimum margin requirements for trading in commodities and stock futures from the current 5% to at least 15%, with 25% minimum margin requirement for economically critical items like crude oil, unleaded gasoline, kerosene, natural gas, certain foodstuffs like wheat, corn and rice, certain industrial metals like aluminum, copper, iron, nickel, and titanium, and precious metals like gold, platinum and silver.

4. Get the banks out of the equities business by re-imposing the full provisions of the 1933 Glass-Steagall Act.

[leekohler]

I believe this kind of thinking is what america was founded on. Seriously, crazy governments that didnt respect the peoples views is what fueled the Freedom of this country, and we are voting for it to come back.

and i think that this last election was corrupt. on all sides. i mean how many people do you think could care less and voted Barrack in just because he was black. And from what i heard, no side or party was proposing something that was going to actually fix the majority of the problems we were facing, aside from the economy, the fact that the government was controlling more and more than they should everyday, and fighting each other each step of the way.

I personally believe that we were in a bit of a crisis when the last election came and people saw the symbol of hope and amazing change in Obama, as well as some did in McCain and i dont think we spent enough time thinking about what was right for the country

Let's not go here. I think we all know that people voted for Obama because he wasn't Bush or a Republican. The Republicans have buried themselves for a long time. If people end up not liking Obama, we could very well see an Independent in office in the future. I see the Reps being a minority for a very long time. They refuse to fix what is broken in their party, and people know it.

[OCSpersonel]

How does that make an election corrupt? People have always voted for superficial reasons. They voted for Bush because he was "a guy I'd like to have a beer with."

maybe this is why you only quoted half of my statement, this happens in every election.
i actually went on to say: "And from what i heard, no side or party was proposing something that was going to actually fix the majority of the problems we were facing, aside from the economy, the fact that the government was controlling more and more than they should everyday, and fighting each other each step of the way.

I personally believe that we were in a bit of a crisis when the last election came and people saw the symbol of hope and amazing change in Obama, as well as some did in McCain and i dont think we spent enough time thinking about what was right for the country"

here ill break it down... the government controls too much, there was never a strong, believable outline by either side, and people DID see him as something close to a jesus. your country is screwed up, some guy brings change along with a historical event if hes elected. no matter how well or poor he does, he will ALWAYS be remembered as he first black president.

and leekohler, that is true, but i dont think republicans are burried. i mean we did have one for 8 years and people bickered about it all 8 years. just look at history, it generally changes from republican to democrat each election. 1st bush, clinton, 2ed bush, obama. if you look at the list, its always cycled, and sure if the republican party dosnt get there act together, they might not be in office in the next election, or the one after that. but im sure that this cycle is gona continue

[leekohler]

maybe this is why you only quoted half of my statement, this happens in every election.
i actually went on to say: "And from what i heard, no side or party was proposing something that was going to actually fix the majority of the problems we were facing, aside from the economy, the fact that the government was controlling more and more than they should everyday, and fighting each other each step of the way.

I personally believe that we were in a bit of a crisis when the last election came and people saw the symbol of hope and amazing change in Obama, as well as some did in McCain and i dont think we spent enough time thinking about what was right for the country"

here ill break it down... the government controls too much, there was never a strong, believable outline by either side, and people DID see him as something close to a jesus. your country is screwed up, some guy brings change along with a historical event if hes elected. no matter how well or poor he does, he will ALWAYS be remembered as he first black president.

and leekohler, that is true, but i dont think republicans are burried. i mean we did have one for 8 years and people bickered about it all 8 years. just look at history, it generally changes from republican to democrat each election. 1st bush, clinton, 2ed bush, obama. if you look at the list, its always cycled, and sure if the republican party dosnt get there act together, they might not be in office in the next election, or the one after that. but im sure that this cycle is gona continue

The Republicans need to change if they want to be the majority again. Palin freaked everyone out. That the party would even think of nominating that babbling Barbie Doll is insane to me. Do they really think people are that stupid? She really was slap in the face to the vast majority of the country. If the Reps try to run here again, they'll bury themselves for decades.

[OCSpersonel]

As long an unemployment remains high I think Obama has to keep pumping money in to help prop things up. If not, this thing could last a decade.

where are we now? its been nearly a decade and all iv seen is problems get worse. sure we may not have been in a recession the whole time bush was in office, but who really hasnt worried about there finances since 2001? i think that recession's problems have kept going and thats why were here,

and again, correct me if im wrong, but wasnt the 1st increase in the stock market, january? sure it may have been caused by hope but for one, thats the last time it happened, and for 2, he wasnt in office till halfway through and bush was running things all the way up to then. so im thinken maybe bush had it? or they were doing something that worked. but then again it could have been the hope and transition from old to new

[OCSpersonel]

The Republicans need to change if they want to be the majority again. Palin freaked everyone out. That the party would even think of nominating that babbling Barbie Doll is insane to me. Do they really think people are that stupid? She really was slap in the face to the vast majority of the country. If the Reps try to run here again, they'll bury themselves for decades.

i wont go too far becasue i didnt get to see enough on her as id have liked to to really have an understanding, but shes actually pretty powerful, from what i saw she intimidated the democrats to the point people here hitting her below he belt about her daughter. if the republicans did that, you know the democrats would b the first to call them on it and hard.
she did have her moment but who dosnt, obama couldnt even do a speech with out 2 teleprompters and now he cant without the same speech in front of him. the different, hes shaking his head up and down now as opposed to side so side. pailin didnt do that, not at least everytime. sure she did get baffled a few times, i think shed be a better VP that biden though, look at how many times hes been caught

[leekohler]

i wont go too far becasue i didnt get to see enough on her as id have liked to to really have an understanding, but shes actually pretty powerful, from what i saw she intimidated the democrats to the point people here hitting her below he belt about her daughter. if the republicans did that, you know the democrats would b the first to call them on it and hard.
she did have her moment but who dosnt, obama couldnt even do a speech with out 2 teleprompters and now he cant without the same speech in front of him. the different, hes shaking his head up and down now as opposed to side so side. pailin didnt do that, not at least everytime. sure she did get baffled a few times, i think shed be a better VP that biden though, look at how many times hes been caught

The reason she angered people is because she's stupid.

[OCSpersonel]

The reason she angered people is because she's stupid.

like i said, i dont know a whole lot here, so i cant agree/disagree with you.

she did run one of the most energy producing states. that dosnt match with stupidity

what evidence do you have that fully explains her stupidity that cant be matched to other elected officials

[leekohler]

like i said, i dont know a whole lot here, so i cant agree/disagree with you.

she did run one of the most energy producing states. that dosnt match with stupidity

what evidence do you have that fully explains her stupidity that cant be matched to other elected officials

You've got to be kidding. Did you not see the VP debates? She's the definition of uninformed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89FbCPzAsRA Republicans and Democrats alike were appalled by her. BTW- she couldn't even finish her term as governor. So sorry- not seeing a whole lot of accomplishment there.

[Eraserhead]

^^ +1. There is no way someone that ill-informed could become prime minister in the UK, and we are better for that.

[obeygiant]

The Republicans need to change if they want to be the majority again. Palin freaked everyone out. That the party would even think of nominating that babbling Barbie Doll is insane to me. Do they really think people are that stupid? She really was slap in the face to the vast majority of the country. If the Reps try to run here again, they'll bury themselves for decades.

I hear you. But I was saying the same thing after they put post-scream Howard Dean at the head of the DNC.

[quagmire]

You've got to be kidding. Did you not see the VP debates? She's the definition of uninformed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89FbCPzAsRA Republicans and Democrats alike were appalled by her. BTW- she couldn't even finish her term as governor. So sorry- not seeing a whole lot of accomplishment there.

Yeah, she is terribly misinformed and in general a political idiot.

I was flipping channels and happened to see O'Reilly talk about her resignation. There was this woman saying that the reason why she stepped down was because she couldn't do her job as governor because she had to keep on defending herself from attacks and accusations against her. If that was the case, how does she expect to run a whole country with even more people attacking her and accusing of her of things if she runs( and wins! :eek: ) in 2012?

[Desertrat]

OCSpersonel, what you're seeing in the stock market is the old "bear market bounce". Go back and review the stock market behavior, post-1929.

We got into all this mess from the mix of government interference in the market place (e.g., sub-prime loans of the Community Reinvestment Act) and uber-low interest rates. The increase in M1 didn't help matters, either.

The foolishness of the first stimulus bill and TARP from Bush, the addition of the second stimulus bill and now the possible third stimulus bill is merely adding beaucoup $$$ to deficits and national debt. Quelle bummer!

This mess won't be over until all the bad debts are written off or repaid. Keeping otherwise-bankrupt corporations alive with tax dollars is merely deferring the day of reckoning. And part of the ongoing problem is that governments at all levels are behaving as though this is a short-term affair and they can operate at a near business-as-usual condition. Tax revenues across the country are declining at all levels of government, which means that government spending will unavoidably decline.

Commercial real estate is in the toilet, with foreclosures expected during the next three years or so. AltA mortgages are resetting with the expected foreclosures over the same period. Credit card walkaways are increasing. All of that means more unemployment and less spending in a consumer economy--and that's bad, really bad. It also means that residential housing will continue to decline in market value.

All this money printing from stimuli will inevitably lead to high consumer price inflation. The only known way to deal with that is to repeat what Volcker did in 1979--which brought the economy to a screeching halt and gave us the 1980-1983 recession. Since our economy is already at a halt, this present depression would go from its present putty-tat status to "ravenous tiger". Since the manufacturing outputs are already quite low, there would be a stagflation condition due to all the stimulus money looking for something to buy which would not lose value--again, a repeat of 1980-1982 behavior.

I don't have a clue as to how much worse it will get. We're getting into this mess with a helluva lot more debt in both the private and public sectors than were extant in the 1930s. We have a far more complex society with far more dependency on systems about which the lay public understands very little. We're far more fragile, today, it seems to me.

I'm a numbers guy. Cost estimating engineer, back in one of my other lives. I don't see any numbers, nowadays, which give me any sort of reassurance.

'Rat

[Eraserhead]

We got into all this mess from the mix of government interference in the market place

Citation? It seems to be difficult to believe the banks weren't under-regulated for example.

[Rt&Dzine]

maybe this is why you only quoted half of my statement, this happens in every election.
i actually went on to say: "And from what i heard, no side or party was proposing something that was going to actually fix the majority of the problems we were facing, aside from the economy, the fact that the government was controlling more and more than they should everyday, and fighting each other each step of the way.

You said that the last election was corrupt and gave the example of people voting for Obama because he is black. I asked how does this make the election corrupt. People have always voted for superficial reasons (not everyone, of course). What you went on to say explains nothing about your statement.

I personally believe that we were in a bit of a crisis when the last election came and people saw the symbol of hope and amazing change in Obama, as well as some did in McCain and i dont think we spent enough time thinking about what was right for the country"

here ill break it down... the government controls too much, there was never a strong, believable outline by either side, and people DID see him as something close to a jesus. your country is screwed up, some guy brings change along with a historical event if hes elected. no matter how well or poor he does, he will ALWAYS be remembered as he first black president.

Jeez. Of course we were in a crisis. One reason Obama won was because of Bush/Cheney. They screwed up big time. Voters swing the other direction. This is politics. Nothing new.

[SactoGuy18]

Desertrat,

I think in the end, what will FINALLY turn the US economy around is the realization that our very income tax system that became law in 1913 when the 16th Amendment passed is a major cause of the economic mess we are in now.

Because by definition income taxes favor debt financing over cash payments for payment of goods and services, is it small wonder why we have deep recessions every 20 years or so since the income tax became law? You wonder why we have WAY over US$10 TRILLION in American-owned liquid assets funneled out of the USA via tax loopholes because American citizens and businesses want them out of the reach of the IRS and state tax authorities.

This is why I am all in favor of drastic reform of our taxation system in one of three possible ways:

1. Reduce the maximum marginal rate to 20%, but drastically reduce the number of credits/deductions available and whatever credits/deductions are left should encourage Americans to keep most of their personal savings and capital investments in the USA.

2. Ditch the current income tax system in favor of a no-deductions flat income tax in the 4-6% range.

3. Ditch the current income tax system in favor of a true consumption tax like the much-discussed FairTax proposal.

[abijnk]

Just FYI:

HuffPo Link (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/11/obama-we-dont-need-a-seco_n_229987.html) to AP article and video (sorry, I hate posting their links, but they usually pair up videos with the articles, which is handy)


(AP) WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama on Saturday dismissed the idea the nation might need a second stimulus to jolt the economy out of recession and urged Americans to be patient with his economic recovery plan.

[NoSmokingBandit]

Let's not go here. I think we all know that people voted for Obama because he wasn't Bush or a Republican. The Republicans have buried themselves for a long time. If people end up not liking Obama, we could very well see an Independent in office in the future. I see the Reps being a minority for a very long time. They refuse to fix what is broken in their party, and people know it.

I hope you are right and we do get an independent in office soon. Want to see political corruption cease? Then avoid political parties and vote independent. The reps are really screwed, so i can only hope the same thing happens to the dems and we get someone great in office next time around.

To stay on topic though, i oppose a second stimulus. The government is terrible at spending our money.

[opinioncircle]

I hope you are right and we do get an independent in office soon. Want to see political corruption cease? Then avoid political parties and vote independent. The reps are really screwed, so i can only hope the same thing happens to the dems and we get someone great in office next time around.

To stay on topic though, i oppose a second stimulus. The government is terrible at spending our money.

As much as I would like an independent to be at the WH, I don't believe it will ever happen. Lobbyists are not running for independents. Besides, electoral votes wouldn't go to independents, too much political tradition behind all of this...

[Eraserhead]

Because by definition income taxes favor debt financing over cash payments for payment of goods and services,

How? You don't get tax relief on the money you earn to pay off your debts...

3. Ditch the current income tax system in favor of a true consumption tax like the much-discussed FairTax proposal.

The problem is that that is bias against the poor as they spend all there money and the rich don't.

[Desertrat]

Eraserhead, the interference came first in such idiocies as the Community Reinvestment Act, forcing lenders to make home loans which they otherwise would not have made under rational fiscal lending policy. Congress then passed laws expanding this idiocy, and at the same time passed laws enabling the enlargement of what became the giant investment banks. This mix, coupled with Greenspan's unending lobbying for allowing the investment banks to have the freedom to "insure" themselves with derivatives, led to a giant--nay, humongous--expansion of credit. This expansion occurred due to the government holding down interest rates below what a free market would have charged to loan money.

And it was all supported by a belief in the ability of poor folks to keep on making house payments, as well as the beliefs that house values would rise forever and that there would never be another downturn in the economy.

SactoGuy18, ANY, repeat, ANY system of taxation can be used to fund social programs. Once the public gets into the ruinacious habit of voting for politicians who will give out monies from the public coffers, the problems we see today would repeat themselves. That was predicted in at least 1797, if not before, when talking about a democracy. Which, of course, carries us back to TANSTAAFL.

'Rat

[Eraserhead]

Eraserhead, the interference came first in such idiocies as the Community Reinvestment Act,

That's not really true though:

Some economists, politicians and other commentators have charged that the CRA contributed in part to the 2008 financial crisis by encouraging banks to make unsafe loans. Others however, including the economists from the Federal Reserve and the FDIC, dispute this contention. The Federal Reserve and the FDIC holds that empirical research has not validated any relationship between the CRA and the 2008 financial crisis. (source 1 (http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/kroszner20081203a.htm), source 2 (http://www.fdic.gov/news/news/speeches/archives/2008/chairman/spdec1708.html))

This mix, coupled with Greenspan's unending lobbying for allowing the investment banks to have the freedom to "insure" themselves with derivatives,

The thing is the theory of allowing companies to buy different products to hedge their bets is a good thing.

Once the public gets into the ruinacious habit of voting for politicians who will give out monies from the public coffers, the problems we see today would repeat themselves.

The problem is that if you don't do that you land up with Argentina, and as the Argentinians I spoke to where learning Spanish put it - at least we don't live in Africa.

[leekohler]

That's not really true though:


The Right always has to blame the poor. They're what's wrong with the country, remember? They are stupid, lazy and immoral (That's the reason they are poor), and they're trying to take all our money. Don't forget that. :rolleyes: I'm getting a bit tired of this claptrap as well. One of these days, people will start looking at these situations to find the truth, not just someone to blame.