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OSUbuckeyefan
Dec 13, 2001, 12:14 PM
I would really love to see nVIDIA's nFORCE chipset implemented on the Mac. Several months ago I seem to remember someone saying it would be. Does anyone have any info regarding this?
Thanks for considering my question,
Jeff

Ensign Paris
Dec 13, 2001, 02:00 PM
Do you mean bring GeForce to the mac? If so it already exists!

Guy

dantec
Dec 13, 2001, 04:03 PM
No I'm pretty sure he meant nForce Eiseign Paris. Go check it out on http://www.nVidia.com/. I don't think it is better than a GeForce 3 but it is most likely (don't flame me on this!) near the speed of a GeForce 2MX. The question is, if it's performance is near on marginally better than the GeForce 2MX why bring it over to our platform?

Falleron
Dec 13, 2001, 04:35 PM
The GeForce 3 ROCKS!!

evildead
Dec 13, 2001, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by dantec
No I'm pretty sure he meant nForce Eiseign Paris. Go check it out on http://www.nVidia.com/. I don't think it is better than a GeForce 3 but it is most likely (don't flame me on this!) near the speed of a GeForce 2MX. The question is, if it's performance is near on marginally better than the GeForce 2MX why bring it over to our platform?



I have hear the same thing. Im not a gammer and have no need for a pro card. The one that came with my quicksilver, the GeForce 2 is more than I need. I can get average 80 fps in Unreal and peak at over 100 fps!!

you guys might want to check out this artical:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/23390.html

zaustin
Dec 13, 2001, 09:53 PM
nForce = HyperTransport.

dantec
Dec 14, 2001, 01:40 AM
The nVidia site says it's based on the GeForce 2 GPU. Now why would it be of any use to all of us (except for iMac owners) to have a GeForce 2 instead of a GeForce 2MX???

OSUbuckeyefan
Dec 14, 2001, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by dantec
The nVidia site says it's based on the GeForce 2 GPU. Now why would it be of any use to all of us (except for iMac owners) to have a GeForce 2 instead of a GeForce 2MX???

Thank you all for the responses.
Indeed, the nForce is based on the GF2 - however, there is an adaptor which allows you to upgrade the video card. So, with nForce you can get the top video card PLUS the outstanding architecture of the chipset (hypertransport, integrated sound chip, etc.)
Here's a link to some info regarding the specifics of nForce.
http://www.nvidia.com/view.asp?IO=nforce_tour

Jeff

kiwi_the_iwik
Dec 18, 2001, 08:40 AM
I'm still trying to decide on what would be the best expansion option for my Cube.

http://www.cube-zone.com shows how a GeForce 2MX can fit into the AGP slot, and http://www.xlr8yourmac.com has benchtests for GeForce 3's in Cubes as well (I can only imagine they fit the same way).

I have a source on a Radeon Cube graphics board, so that just increases the problem

OK folks: do your thing - which one would be best? I'm trying to take into consideration the heat issue, and how loud these little guys are with their fans. Funny - nVidia and ATI don't mention that on their websites...

Also - there's an interesting link on xlr8yourmac.com regarding MP chips in a Cube. And who said that little puppy ain't expandable?

dantec
Dec 18, 2001, 12:22 PM
But i'm not sure if your cube could handle the heat. Always remember when upgrading your cube, that it has a very very tight enclosure which doesn't allow lots of heat to pass through (except through the middle shaft, but the graphics card is located on the outer side, from what I remember from Macworld). Apple used to sell GeForce 2MX's for cubes. Maybe if you scavenge around the internet you might be able to find one..?

When you talk about GeForce 2MX's do you mean just a normal one or one designed especially for the cube?

dantec
Dec 18, 2001, 12:24 PM
The GeForce 3 has a fan, unless it doesn't bother you about the noise, I wouldn't recommend it (a fan means there is lots of heat!).

I would wait a little while if you plan to get a GeForce 3... The GeForce 3 titanium has been out for a while, so I would wait until it is launched (how come there isn't a nvidiarumors.com? ;))

kiwi_the_iwik
Dec 22, 2001, 10:51 AM
Yes, mate - the heat issue might well be a problem. I've just found out even the Radeon can generate quite a bit of heat (see below!). Even the lowly Rage 128 can get up to around 45 degrees C.

Also, be on the lookout, Cube owners...

...according to -

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/Graphics/fanless_radeon_Cube_cards.html

There have been a few cases where Radeons have shipped without fans - these have been MISASSEMBLED, with a Rage 128 heatsink in place of the fan. Therefore, it should be returned to be replaced with the fanned version.

Considering the heat generated by this card at the heatsink can be in excess of 90 degrees C., the results to your poor little powerhorse could be devastating...



[Edited by kiwi_the_iwik on 12-22-2001 at 11:56 AM]

Tomasz
Dec 31, 2001, 12:50 AM
Sorry to spoil the fun, but nForce is a chipset (motherboard). It's for PCs and is really good, but expensive.

The best graphic card for the mac is GeForce 3. Although I wish ATI would bring the 8500 Radeon to the apple universe (with better drivers). Who knows.... someday, we might actually have good graphics cards in all macs.

Tomasz

OSUbuckeyefan
Dec 31, 2001, 07:12 PM
The nForce is a chipset indeed (note my first post :)) What I was wondering is if anyone has heard/thinks if it will come to the mac. It seems to me to be quite an impressive bit of hardware - I for one hope it does make its way to the mac platform. What do you think?

dantec
Dec 31, 2001, 07:38 PM
If Apple made graphics cards...

Quote from Steve Jobs "with these new graphics cards we have built every step. Starting from the hardware, to the graphics card itself to the AGP port (Apple Graphics port) to the software (drivers).

Note: the AGP thing is a joke... ;)

Apple should take a bigger stake in gaming... why not buy out id???

dantec
Dec 31, 2001, 07:40 PM
Is the nForce an actual motherboard??? Can you shove it in a beige box and connect a hard drive and load up Mac OS???

OSUbuckeyefan
Dec 31, 2001, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by dantec
Is the nForce an actual motherboard??? Can you shove it in a beige box and connect a hard drive and load up Mac OS???

I think the nForce would be considered a motherboard (I'm not a hardware guru, so don't quote me one that! :)) I am also not sure if you could just slap the nForce into any box. However, here is some good info on the nForce...

http://www.nvidia.com/view.asp?IO=nforce_tour

Catfish_Man
Dec 31, 2001, 08:04 PM
It's a chipset that can be used in a motherboard, not an actual motherboard. Also, you definetly couldn't "load of the Mac OS" because it's PC only. (There's an Athlon XP motherboard made with it, and a P4 one)

Tomasz
Dec 31, 2001, 08:14 PM
A few companies make motherboards using the nForce chipset. It is one of the best (not just my opinion).

To Dantec: Yes you can shove it in a beige box (sadly not my mini-tower beige G3). Just plug in a hard drive, and an optical drive, and a few other parts and you are set. Problem is that it is not designed for the mac world. It is a part of the PC world.

To OSUbuckeyefan: There is very little chance of it coming to the mac, unless apple wants to rely on nVidia for the chipset. This would be a strange move in my opinion. Although if it did, I wouldn't mind:)

Ofcourse it would make the mac computers go even higher in price:( which may slow down sales.

But in the back of my mind, I still think that an ATI graphic solution based on the 8500 Radeon would be great. Theoretically it could pulverize the GeForce 3 Ti. If ATI only made some good drivers.... I would get it.

But we may not even care.... because Jan. 7 is so close. There may be no need of such things, apple may have already done some homework and made a extreme machine (even better than usual). If I just was free Monday I would cross the bridge and be in awe. Maybe next MWSF...

Tomasz

MrMacMan
Dec 31, 2001, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Tomasz

The best graphic card for the mac is GeForce 3. Although I wish ATI would bring the 8500 Radeon to the apple universe (with better drivers). Who knows.... someday, we might actually have good graphics cards in all macs.

Tomasz
The 8500 is coming to the mac I read it somewhere. Soon I read it would be out. In macaddict I think.

OSUbuckeyefan
Dec 31, 2001, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Tomasz
A few companies make motherboards using the nForce chipset. It is one of the best (not just my opinion).



To OSUbuckeyefan: There is very little chance of it coming to the mac, unless apple wants to rely on nVidia for the chipset. This would be a strange move in my opinion. Although if it did, I wouldn't mind:)

Ofcourse it would make the mac computers go even higher in price:( which may slow down sales.



Tomasz

Well, I guess we can hope...:)

Thanks for the input!

P.S. I also seem to remember hearing that the ATI 8500 will be coming to the mac...

Tomasz
Dec 31, 2001, 10:00 PM
I agree, it will come out, but the key part to my wish is for the 8500 to have better drivers. Currently it is perfroming weaker than the GeForce 3 Ti 500. But the 8500 has superior specs on it. So it should be better. The problem lies with the drivers for the card.

Even if it does come out for the mac, without better drivers, I would not get it if a GeForce 3 is in your price range. But if you can't afford the GeForce 3, but "only" the 8500, then it is definitly a great buy, and will (supposedly) eventually outperform the GeForce 3.

Also, currently ATI offers many more features on their cards when compared to nVidia. If you want more features then ATI is better. And even though you might get a few less fps on games with the ATI it will not be noticed that much.

Tomasz

dantec
Jan 1, 2002, 12:00 AM
better overall...

nVidia cares about the Mac. At least they launched the GeForce 3 for mac before it even came to the pc?

What more do you want from a graphics card company?

dantec
Jan 1, 2002, 12:07 AM
nVidia actually cares about the Mac platform... ATI just treats mac users like 2nd class citizens.

The future is nVidia. I think in the future Apple will phase out ATI from the product line, unless nVidia keeps the power consuption of their graphics cards (i.e. ruining Apple's lead in long lasting apple battery life).

Tomasz
Jan 1, 2002, 12:44 AM
By better overall I meant in features like: multiple displays possibility with one card, tv tuners, firewire (2) ports meaning digital input/output, as well as analog input/output, etc.

So far, nVidia doesn't have many (if any, on "cheap" end cards) of those features on their cards. So yes, ATI does have more features. But nVidia will catch up. It is already ahead with speed.

As for nVidia caring about the Mac... they want money... sorry to tell yout this but they are a bussiness.

And I don't really like the idea of being dependant on any company for graphics on the mac. I hope ATI AND nVidia and others do as much as they can to get hardware for macs and produce bigger, better, and cheaper:) products.

As for the future... only time will tell.

Tomasz

xipirho
Jan 1, 2002, 11:46 AM
I have an old G4 dual 500 with agp 2x and have a REALLY crap graphics card (16mb ATI Rage!) and was wondering if the newish GeForce 2 and 3 cards would work on my AGP 2x machine, and if so what would their performance be like!? Doesn't REALLY matter, as i'm gonna get a PC with an excellent GPU soon, VERY soon! Anyway, if you do know, please respond, cheers!

OSUbuckeyefan
Jan 1, 2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by xipirho
I have an old G4 dual 500 with agp 2x and have a REALLY crap graphics card (16mb ATI Rage!) and was wondering if the newish GeForce 2 and 3 cards would work on my AGP 2x machine, and if so what would their performance be like!? Doesn't REALLY matter, as i'm gonna get a PC with an excellent GPU soon, VERY soon! Anyway, if you do know, please respond, cheers!

By "new PC" I really hope you're talking about a mac! :)

BTW, I think (but I'm not sure) the new cards you rever to require the 4x AGP (I am not positive about this, however). My friend recently updated his graphics card and it seems that he was not able to get the new GeForce 3 because of the AGP issue.

[Edited by OSUbuckeyefan on 01-01-2002 at 01:08 PM]

xipirho
Jan 1, 2002, 12:15 PM
Thanks for the help. Is there any way to upgrade to AGP 4x (eg: change the motherboard!?) that would cost less than a new Mac or IBM comp!? Oh, and about the new PC, sorry, I mean an IBM compatible ! (unless Mac do something REALLY revolutionary ASAP!) - don't get me wrong, i know macs are better on hardware (and i love OSX), but i'm fed up with the lack of software, lack of games, lack of hardware support and the way you can't upgrade half the stuff in macs!

OSUbuckeyefan
Jan 1, 2002, 12:32 PM
I'm honestly not sure about upgrading the graphics port - maybe one of the hardware gurus will chime in here...

As for your frustration with macs - I would give it 6 more days. See what they come up with at MWSF. It seems as though some really great stuff is going to be released :)

Interestingly - I don't own a mac but will be getting one soon (hopefully it will be a G5). I plan on getting it mainly for gaming. It seems to me that all the "worthwile" games are available for the mac platform :)

dantec
Jan 1, 2002, 12:40 PM
Apple sells motherboards and I also think the AGP connector is soldered onto the motherboard. So replacing the connector isn't gonna be possible!

It wouldn't work... but even if it did you wouldn't be getting the full performance of the card. These cards were designed with AGP4x in mind, so I guess your better off buying a new mac!

xipirho
Jan 1, 2002, 12:55 PM
Where are the command and conquer series for mac, not to mention force feedback!? G5 sounds great, maybe, just maybe i'll stick with mac. I'm waiting for the new pcs (of all kinds) to be released before buying, so dont worry about macworld! Also, if apple sells motherboards, cant i buy one from them!?

dantec
Jan 1, 2002, 01:08 PM
If they did wouldn't there be clones, right???

Maybe go to un unauthorized Apple dealer. Maybe they will sell you a motherboard!

Funkatation
Jan 1, 2002, 02:03 PM
You are confusing the poor man. nVidia does NOT make a retail version of thier Geforce 2/3 cards for the Mac. Apple does not support the Geforce 2/3 cards in anything but computers that came with AGP4x (Quicksilver and Digital Audios). So that is a moot point. You might be able to get one off Ebay, but I would not bet on it working in your unit, and if it doesn't you have a nice centerpiece :) I would go for the Radeon Mac Edition. ATI has been making drivers for the Mac for 5 years. Thier drivers are much much much more mature than nVidia's drivers for the Mac. If you want to wait, I'd wholeheartedly suggest the Radeon 8500. There have been several benchmarks done on several sites comparing the 2 MX vs the Radeon and the radeon wins hands down. Not as good as a GF3, but if you can't use it anyway, why bother? As far as upgrading the AGP slot on your computer, you can't. You can't buy a new logic board that has AGP 4x, unless you buy one of the newer series G4 board, and then your G4 processor won't work in it. Then you'll have to upgrade that. It's easier to buy a new machine then that, even IF you could find the parts. I would suggest the Radeon as the easiest way to get great graphics. As far as the nForce goes, they would have to completely rewrite the board in order for it to work on a mac. It's very unlikely. The development costs for the nForce were paid for by Microsoft when they made the "Xbox". When nVidia brought it to the PC, they dumbed down the graphics card, and made it work with the Athlons. It does NOT work with the Pentium 4... yet.. And the only way to get a pentium III to work in it, is to buy an Xbox....

lewdvig
Jan 1, 2002, 02:27 PM
read the reviews on the PC hardware sites, this platform is a good first try but falls far short of the performance crown. Also, it is a very expensive chipset from an OEM perspective.

What would you do with all the PC legacy stuff on that board?

Hypertransport is cool, but you can license that easily enough.

Funkatation
Jan 1, 2002, 02:42 PM
... already has a license to Hyper Transport, they were one of the founding members of the consortium.. and thats why I said the entire board / chipset would have to be reworked. We might see Hyper Transport without the Nforce :D

xipirho
Jan 1, 2002, 04:44 PM
OH FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!!! THIS IS WHY I'M GETTING A PC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Funkatation
Jan 1, 2002, 04:58 PM
It is your choice after all. :) Though I'm sure we'll see you back heh heh heh....

lewdvig
Jan 5, 2002, 11:58 PM
I did!

I have a 1.1ghz Athlon rig built from the ground up for video editing (and playing Max Payne). I would rather have a Quicksilver (even an old G4 dual 500) and an XBOX.

I need to find a MacOS deserter/sucker and do a trade.

I installed OSX on my sons 7600 (w/288 meg or ram mind you) and it works. XP will not work on a Pentium 120 let me tell you!!!

PCs are fine if you build them yourself (as complicated as lego, really quite simple). But if you buy a brand name PC, you are - like so many people these days - an idiot!

AGP speed (2x vs 4x) really is not that much of a bottleneck. Your modern 32-64meg card won't need any system memory for the frame buffer (the original benefit of AGP). What hurts the Mac is:

1. poor driver support - PC user get updated detonator drivers for their nVidia card every couple of days!
2. CPU clock speed. mhz-myth or not, a 1.3ghz p4 gets spanked by a 2.2 ghz p4 with everything else being equal. Quake 3 is not Photoshop!

xipirho
Jan 6, 2002, 06:59 AM
Hey, i have an old G4 dual 500!!! Interested? It might take quite a lot of arrangement though, as i'm in the uk! (unless you are too!)

xipirho
Jan 6, 2002, 07:01 AM
Hey, soz, i just realised you said TRADE!!! No thanks - i'll stick with my G4 over yur athlon, soz!