HOT lanes?

[Wotan31]

How could such a stupid idea even be considered? :confused:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jul/13/not-so-hot-lanes/

$33,280 per person per year to drive on the highway? :rolleyes:

And then there's the bribe money that they even get back, after the votes have been counted and the project approved:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/02/AR2008070203200.html

[InvalidUserID]

California was considering this a while ago but it wasn't for nearly as much.

Wow, $32k?! Really?! I would consider MAYBE $1k a year just because I hate traffic but $32k?

[thegoldenmackid]

Dallas also discussed this, we have two highways that run north/south about a mile apart, one is a tollroad and one is free; oddly in the morning commute, the road in between the two (with lights) is the quickest.

[Wotan31]

From the article:

The unlikely commuter who undertakes the entire 64-mile journey from Spotsylvania would pay a shocking $33,280 each year to use the toll lanes. More common commutes from a town such as Dumfries would cost drivers $8,840 each year. These initial amounts would adjust upward for inflation and added profit year on year until 2087.

I walk to work so don't have to deal with traffic and tolls and whatnot, but I still find this whole thing preposterous.

[Eraserhead]

Jesus that is an expensive toll road.

[hulugu]

Hey, these are market-forces at work. VDOT couldn't pay to have the roads reworked, so they're giving the reigns to a private company who, in exchange for building new roads, will be charging people what the market can bear.


Also, who named these cities? Spotsylvania and Dumfries, really?

[LumbermanSVO]

Also, who named these cities? Spotsylvania and Dumfries, really?

Compared to some places those are normal names. ;)

[Abstract]

You haven't been anywhere unless you've been to Woolloomooloo. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolloomooloo,_New_South_Wales)

[Ugg]

How could such a stupid idea even be considered? :confused:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jul/13/not-so-hot-lanes/

$33,280 per person per year to drive on the highway? :rolleyes:

And then there's the bribe money that they even get back, after the votes have been counted and the project approved:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/02/AR2008070203200.html

I thought you were all for free market forces? What's wrong with this one?

[Desertrat]

It's not free market. The government is in control of the right of way as well as the terms of the contract. The government is allowing a monopoly without any protection of those for whom it is responsible to protect in this very sort of situation.

The very-expensive Loop 8 toll road at Houston is maybe 10¢ per mile, give or take a little. From I-10, from the east-side access to the west-side get-off, it's two bucks, total.

[Wotan31]

I thought you were all for free market forces? What's wrong with this one?
This is not free market forces at work. Not by a long shot.

[solvs]

How is it not free market? If the gov were to regulate this, wouldn't that go against the deregulation you guys keep calling for? Or is that only for things you like? I mean, part of that stimulus you're both against is for infrastructure for things like roads. Of course it's ridiculous, but if you got what you say you want, this is exactly what would happen.

I fail to see how it wouldn't, and why you don't see that.

[Zombie Acorn]

How is it not free market? If the gov were to regulate this, wouldn't that go against the deregulation you guys keep calling for? Or is that only for things you like? I mean, part of that stimulus you're both against is for infrastructure for things like roads. Of course it's ridiculous, but if you got what you say you want, this is exactly what would happen.

I fail to see how it wouldn't, and why you don't see that.

These are non-compete agreements which transfers control from the government to a private entity. I can't go start building a highway right next to the one currently in place.

[pdham]

These are non-compete agreements which transfers control from the government to a private entity. I can't go start building a highway right next to the one currently in place.

I don't know. The situation seems like standard deal making. Company X makes a better offer than Company Y, but they have restrictive covenents on the actions of Seller Z. Seller Z weighs the pros and cons and picks the deal that best enhances their utility.

For example, lets say a City's has civic center that is now under the controll and opperation of a private entity that gets public contributions via local government (typically room tax) and private contributions. The entity decides get a corporate sponser. Now noone else can advertise in the building. In the end you have an often public service - the civic center - that is owned and opperated by a private entity, and due to contract negotiations, does not allow competition of advertising or branding among private buisnesses, but yet is still partially supported by tax dollars/user fees.

Seems to be the same deal here.

[Zombie Acorn]

I don't know. The situation seems like standard deal making. Company X makes a better offer than Company Y, but they have restrictive covenents on the actions of Seller Z. Seller Z weighs the pros and cons and picks the deal that best enhances their utility.

For example, lets say a City's has civic center that is now under the controll and opperation of a private entity that gets public contributions via local government (typically room tax) and private contributions. The entity decides get a corporate sponser. Now noone else can advertise in the building. In the end you have an often public service - the civic center - that is owned and opperated by a private entity, and due to contract negotiations, does not allow competition of advertising or branding among private buisnesses, but yet is still partially supported by tax dollars/user fees.

Seems to be the same deal here.

I can create a competing organization if I please to host events that takes business away from the civic center and gains me advertising privileges if I have a better business model. The government isn't going to allow me to build a separate highway or start adding my own lanes to compete with the Australian business.

[solvs]

I can't go start building a highway right next to the one currently in place.

Well, exactly. What do you think happens when we have no regulation? That's why there are supposed to be antitrust laws. You know, regulation. This is a business who somehow got the contract, and can charge whatever it wishes apparently. If the gov enforced rules over it, say a maximum charge or a competing highway, then it wouldn't be this bad.

Or, the road would just be paid for and they wouldn't need any of this ridiculousness.

[Zombie Acorn]

Well, exactly. What do you think happens when we have no regulation? That's why there are supposed to be antitrust laws. You know, regulation. This is a business who somehow got the contract, and can charge whatever it wishes apparently. If the gov enforced rules over it, say a maximum charge or a competing highway, then it wouldn't be this bad.

Or, the road would just be paid for and they wouldn't need any of this ridiculousness.

All I wanted to say was that we shouldn't fault the idea of free trade because this isn't a situation where it will apply. If efficiency through competition isn't an option then I don't consider it free trade.

[solvs]

I don't fault the idea of free trade as a principle. What I have a problem with is halfassed gov intervention allowing what amounts to corp welfare, then basically calls for no regulation and efforts to kill any competition so they can get away with this type of thing. Anyone who is a libertarian can maybe say they don't want gov in there at all, but what has happened is what happens when you let businesses do whatever they want. My hope, it's as empty as the toll road in Kansas when I was there last month, that I went out of my way to avoid on my way out.

Not an advocate of socialism, contrary to some's belief, but if the road was socialized, the worst that could happen should be a toll lane, that's nowhere near this expensive (with profits going towards the state for road maintenance).

[Counterfit]

Hey, these are market-forces at work. VDOT couldn't pay to have the roads reworked, so they're giving the reigns to a private company who, in exchange for building new roads, will be charging people what the market can bear.

Nope, no new roads here To accommodate the extra toll lane, the existing lanes and the shoulders will be narrowed.

Plus there's this: f the rate of carpooling actually increases beyond a predetermined level, the state (i.e., taxpayers) must pay monetary penalties to the Australian company.

Yeah, that's a great idea. :rolleyes: