iTunes 8.2.1 Reportedly Breaks Palm Pre Syncing

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/15/itunes-8-2-1-reportedly-breaks-palm-pre-syncing/)

Earlier today, Apple released iTunes 8.2.1 (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/15/apple-releases-itunes-8-2-1/), describing the update only as providing "a number of important bug fixes and addresses an issue with verification of Apple devices." The notice regarding device verification has led to speculation that the update breaks the ability for the Palm Pre to sync directly with iTunes (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/05/28/palm-pre-to-sync-with-itunes-on-macs/).

According to a posting at PreCentral (http://www.precentral.net/apple-blocks-palm-pre-itunes-syncing) and a report in our own forums (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=8091053#post8091053), this is indeed the case, signaling the latest salvo in the ongoing dispute between Apple and Palm, which has hired a number of former Apple employees in recent years as it attempts to outdo the iPhone.At least on this Mac, iTunes sync isn't working after the 8.2.1 update. We were wondering if this day would come after the back and forth between Apple and Palm on the issue. It's as-yet unclear exactly what method Apple is using to block Pre sync, but we suspect is wasn't easy. ...Which means we also suspect it might not be easy for Palm to turn it back on.

Article Link: iTunes 8.2.1 Reportedly Breaks Palm Pre Syncing (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/15/itunes-8-2-1-reportedly-breaks-palm-pre-syncing/)

[arkitect]

Well colour me surprised.
:D

[Tallest Skil]

Good! Let the war begin.

[Peace]

Good!! I dislike thieves.

[smileyborg]

Palm Pre adopters:

Oops! Should have waited 2 days for the announcement of the 3G S if you wanted iTunes compatibility! :)

[Achiever]

Good for Apple if this is true. They have no obligation to support the software compatibility of a non-licensing competitor.

[thegoldenmackid]

And in five days Palm will come out with a new firmware update to fix this problem...

[Liamf555]

wow how surprising...

[bbplayer5]

haha this is hilarious :D

[skillz1318]

I am interested to see how Palm reacts....

[chriszzz]

Look what happens when you try to play it cheap and bum off others hard work. They got what was coming to them.

[justflie]

I have some popcorn and soda and will be sitting on my sofa to watch the fight. Who else is coming? Someone bring beer, preferably Yueng Ling...:D

[Blueflame1138]

"We have engaged the Borg....."
;)

[jav6454]

Let the blood bath begin....

[Shake 'n' Bake]

Big freakin' surprise.

Palm will have new firmware out in a matter of days.

This iTunes battle will be going on until one company sues the other.

[statik13]

oh Booooo! If this is true then Apple is going about things all wrong. They should encourage the Pre and any other phone or mp3 player to sync through iTunes. More sales for iTunes songs & movies plus more positive exposure for Apple.

I'm not saying give them full access to everything, but let them sync the basics like songs & podcasts.

Now instead of being looked at in a positive light Apple has alienated the Palm Pre crowd. :mad:

[Willis]

About time. But then, if you want to have syncing, surely they'd just stick to 8.2?

[bbplayer5]

cant believe palm didnt make a great syncing software for their phone lol...

[scirica]

I'm more concerned about what affect this will have on future jailbreaks. I'm not taking this upgrade to itunes until I hear from the Dev Team.

[tobefirst]

Yeah, not surprised at all. And, like others, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Palm update "fix" this break.

[neverfade]

Seriously, Apple did all thge hard work with iTunes, and a company creates a product and think that they can just ride Apple's coat tails ?

C'mon - make your own software, you stupid idiots!

[Tallest Skil]

Now instead of being looked at in a positive light Apple has alienated the Palm Pre crowd. :mad:

Creating a larger market for the iPhone.

Apple made the software; they can choose what third-party devices use it.

[Shake 'n' Bake]

I like what the information says in Software Update. What's up with the iPhone OS 3.0 comment?

[Goona]

Well done Apple for plugging security holes. As for Palm that's what they get for being lazy.

[cameronjpu]

Why would the suggestion that it wasn't easy for Apple to block it in any way suggest that it will be easy for Palm to re-enable it? Maybe it took a while to block because Apple wanted to make sure it would be difficult for Palm?

In any case, the question is not how difficult or easy it is for Palm or Apple. The main aim here for Apple is to make it something that ordinary users are not going to want to put up with. Can you imagine how pissed an iPhone user would be if he couldn't sync with his iTunes for a week?

[mds]

oh Booooo! If this is true then Apple is going about things all wrong. They should encourage the Pre and any other phone or mp3 player to sync through iTunes. More sales for iTunes songs & movies plus more positive exposure for Apple.

I'm not saying give them full access to everything, but let them sync the basics like songs & podcasts.

Now instead of being looked at in a positive light Apple has alienated the Palm Pre crowd. :mad:

+1 - Why alienate a potential customer? People buying Pres are buying them because they fit their needs better for various reasons, why not get revenue from the iTunes store?

[Blue Fox]

Look what happens when you try to play it cheap and bum off others hard work. They got what was coming to them.

I agree 100%. TAKE THAT PRE, (it's a horribly ugly phone too, wasn't impresssed)

[casik]

Awesome. Go Apple. Suck on that Palm.

[stainlessliquid]

If I had a Pre that would be the last time I ever updated iTunes. Keeping iTunes up to date is totally not worth losing compatibility, if they used the iTunes store then I guess they could resort to amazon or piracy. Either way Apple loses.

[xIGmanIx]

Creating a larger market for the iPhone.

Apple made the software; they can choose what third-party devices use it.

Even if it comes across as petty and shortsighted.

[Amdahl]

This is like Nintendo and their lockout chips, or Sega and their lockout chips on their cartridge video game systems, or HP and their ink-cartridge lockout chips, but with the added anti-trust issues that Apple is messing with if they actually succeed. Don't forget, Apple was already zinged by France over iTunes store.

This is the same crap you Apple fanboys would be flaming Microsoft over if they were the ones locking out competition.

[Ridly]

booooooooo! God this bugs me. Good move apple, just be a bunch of dicks like Microsoft. I don't even have a palm pre and this annoys me.

[seedster2]

Simple solution is not to upgrade to the new itunes or develop your own software/hack in the meantime.

Either way, it's more of a moral victory than anything else. Pre users aren't entitled to itunes compatibility and they arent obligated to update.

My friends recently bought Pre's and I advised not to upgrade to the next itunes unless they were assured of its compatibility. they turned off auto update and are happy with the current itunes. It will take some serious new functionalities to get itunes users to feel left out on updates.

[Nem Wan]

Seriously, Apple did all thge hard work with iTunes, and a company creates a product and think that they can just ride Apple's coat tails ?

C'mon - make your own software, you stupid idiots!

If Apple made printers you'd be saying it would be OK for them to block Epson, Canon, and HP from being able to print.

Interoperability is not a bad thing and it's not stealing to make a product that works with another product.

[futch]

Good. Palm sucks.

[macfan70]

oh Booooo! If this is true then Apple is going about things all wrong. They should encourage the Pre and any other phone or mp3 player to sync through iTunes. More sales for iTunes songs & movies plus more positive exposure for Apple.

I'm not saying give them full access to everything, but let them sync the basics like songs & podcasts.

Now instead of being looked at in a positive light Apple has alienated the Palm Pre crowd. :mad:

iTunes does not make Apple that much money, they use it as an added bonus if you buy their hardware. So opening up to others to piggy back off of Apples efforts is not an option for them.

[casik]

So you are saying Apple is sitting quiet and letting Palm get away with stealing without permission because they are a charity non-profit organization?

It's more like - we all steal from each other, let's just do what we are here for - business. I am pretty sure Palm made a smart phone before Apple.

hahaha probably they made a smart phone before Apple. It just says a lot that Apple didn't spend years and years on a line of phones that still suck.

[nagromme]

iTunes automatically generates an XML file of all your songs and playlists--a file it doesn't even use itself--specifically so that NON-iTunes software can access that information in a standard way.

In other words, iTunes already supports 3rd-party access to your library--and the files themselves are just files, copyable anywhere. So Palm just needs to use the approved method: a separate app that accesses iTunes' database and then transfers the files, rather than a hack (however clever) for using the iTunes app directly.

I expect that this is what Palm will do, as has been done before, and that BOTH Apple and Pre owners will be fine with it in the end.

[/dev/toaster]

And in five days Palm will come out with a new firmware update to fix this problem...

and shortly after that, Apple will break it again :P Its going to be a silly cat and mouse game for the next few months.

The problem is, that if Apple totally changes the way sync works then the engineers who left Apple won't know anything about it. In the end, I think Palm is going to lose here.

[windywoo]

Hurray for Apple and their proprietary, closed systems. Booooo to Microsoft and their proprietary closed systems!

[Tallest Skil]

This is the same crap you Apple fanboys would be flaming Microsoft over if they were the ones locking out competition.

I, for one, couldn't care less that I can't use .exe files on my computer.

[kbmb]

oh Booooo! If this is true then Apple is going about things all wrong. They should encourage the Pre and any other phone or mp3 player to sync through iTunes. More sales for iTunes songs & movies plus more positive exposure for Apple.

I'm not saying give them full access to everything, but let them sync the basics like songs & podcasts.

Now instead of being looked at in a positive light Apple has alienated the Palm Pre crowd. :mad:

Apple doesn't care. They don't make that much revenue from sales of songs in iTunes.....it's all about the hardware!

-Kevin

edit: macfan70 beat me to it!

[Compile 'em all]

I'm more concerned about what affect this will have on future jailbreaks. I'm not taking this upgrade to itunes until I hear from the Dev Team.

+1. I wonder if they fixed that signing problem to disable downgrades.

[xUKHCx]

I like what the information says in Software Update. What's up with the iPhone OS 3.0 comment?

That is what the 8.2 update bought.

The first paragraph is 8.2

The second paragraph is 8.2.1

[yg17]

To all of you complaining and whining and defending Apple, what if Apple said that only their keyboards and mice would work with Mac? What if they said that only the $900 Cinema Display would work with a Mac? Would you be defending them?

[Lord Bodak]

How many useful features and bug fixes could Apple have included with 8.2.1 if they weren't spending time on this?

Pre syncing isn't hurting any of Apple's users, but maybe some unfixed bug is.

[Goona]

This is like Nintendo and their lockout chips, or Sega and their lockout chips on their cartridge video game systems, or HP and their ink-cartridge lockout chips, but with the added anti-trust issues that Apple is messing with if they actually succeed. Don't forget, Apple was already zinged by France over iTunes store.

This is the same crap you Apple fanboys would be flaming Microsoft over if they were the ones locking out competition.

What judgment did Apple recieve in France?

[yg17]

I, for one, couldn't care less that I can't use .exe files on my computer.

That's not what Microsoft did, they were trying to force people to use Internet Explorer in Windows, and the DOJ took them to the cleaners for it. Apple is trying to force people to use an iPhone/iPod in iTunes, and hopefully the DOJ will take them to the cleaners as well.

[jav6454]

I, for one, couldn't care less that I can't use .exe files on my computer.

This. Honestly. Why would someone like the guy Tallest quoted bothered on trolling here.

[dguisinger]

To all of you complaining and whining and defending Apple, what if Apple said that only their keyboards and mice would work with Mac? What if they said that only the $900 Cinema Display would work with a Mac? Would you be defending them?

So what? It used to be that way. Apple used to use an RJ11 style jack for their keyboards....then they used ADB. And wow, look at that, they had ADC for displays. Get over yourself. They can chose how to make their products, you can chose if you decide to use them.

[macnerd77]

I like what the information says in Software Update. What's up with the iPhone OS 3.0 comment?

the best part about the upgrade notes is
"iTunes 8.2.1 provides a number of important bug fixes and addresses an issue with verification of Apple devices."

I think it is great that apple is blocking other devices from using itunes. The only reason these devices can even truly try to use itunes is because apple has removed DRM. If you want to use itunes then get an iPhone!!!!

[stainlessliquid]

I, for one, couldn't care less that I can't use .exe files on my computer.

uh yes you can

[jav6454]

uh yes you can

Not directly though. You have to go through CorssOver.

[xIGmanIx]

iTunes does not make Apple that much money, they use it as an added bonus if you buy their hardware. So opening up to others to piggy back off of Apples efforts is not an option for them.

i would argue different. Plus we don't have a look at their revenue generated and operating margin so no one really is in a place to say otherwise. If its not tied to revenue, then what is the rationale to eliminate some one from using your product? Its not like Apple was the ones engineering the support for the Pre so its no cycles used on their part.

Again i think this comes across petty intentional or not.

[DUSTmurph]

"Good artists copy. Great artist steal."
Steve Jobs quoting Picasso.

[yg17]

So what? It used to be that way. Apple used to use an RJ11 style jack for their keyboards....then they used ADB. And wow, look at that, they had ADC for displays. Get over yourself. They can chose how to make their products, you can chose if you decide to use them.

No, there were still third party products out there that used the ADB connector and converters to convert ADC to VGA. If the Mac OS or hardware actively sought out 3rd party hardware and blocked it, you all would be bitching up a storm.

[macnchiefs]

First off, syncing your media that you paid for and own to a device that you paid for and own isn't stealing... it's syncing. Stop with the senseless comments that Palm was stealing.

Second, this is the kind of stuff that people hate apple for. I expected apple to do it and they certainly have every right to since they own iTunes but I guess it's disappointing when it finally does happen. Not everyone on the face of the earth can get an iPhone to carry their music with them even though they have iTunes on their computer...

Third, just get double twist. It's a better way to sync anyways for non-apple devices.

[casik]

I think that Palm was just being sly and lazy about things... I mean why advertize something that isn't appropriate to advertize? Without permission from Apple to use iTunes they obviously had to see it coming.

"Hey buy this phone and you can come into Apple's house whenever you want!.. oh ya... but you need to sneek in through the back window and we can't guarentee that they won't lock their place down better... but still come in whenever you want!"

I can't believe the amount of people that are upset about this. It's silly.

Oh and again... Apple won't be making a killing all of a sudden for the small amount of people that bought the Pre. Probably wouldn't even notice it in their numbers if all the Pre owners used the iTunes store.

[bobertoq]

Why? I don't understand why Apple is afraid of a little competition :confused: Switch to Songbird!!

[dguisinger]

That's not what Microsoft did, they were trying to force people to use Internet Explorer in Windows, and the DOJ took them to the cleaners for it. Apple is trying to force people to use an iPhone/iPod in iTunes, and hopefully the DOJ will take them to the cleaners as well.

Microsoft forced OEMs to not bundle alternative browsers and media players in the OEM licensing agreements, as well as charged OEM's for all machines they sold wether or not Microsoft Windows was installed claiming people purchasing without Windows would obviously be pirating Windows. This is not the same thing.

[yg17]

First off, syncing your media that you paid for and own to a device that you paid for and own isn't stealing... it's syncing. Stop with the senseless comments that Palm was stealing.


Right, let's get that straight. Stealing would be if Palm had a mole inside Apple who stole the iTunes source code and gave it to Palm to they could make a couple minor changes, slap their name on it and release it. What Palm did is certainly not stealing.

[Tallest Skil]

That's not what Microsoft did, they were trying to force people to use Internet Explorer in Windows, and the DOJ took them to the cleaners for it. Apple is trying to force people to use an iPhone/iPod in iTunes, and hopefully the DOJ will take them to the cleaners as well.

Oh, yes, I know that; I'm just using the .exe example as coming from a different viewpoint.

uh yes you can

So I don't need to put these games in a Cider shell to run them, then, huh.

I can just double-click the .exe file and it will start, yes?

Oh. Look at that. It doesn't work.

Aside: I have them set to be opened by SWF & FLV Player to give them a distinctive look so that I know they're worthless to me.

[Corrosive vinyl]

okay, so explain to someone not in the know what palm is doing with the pre which apple is mad about. What makes the pre case different then other phones syncing?

[yg17]

Microsoft forced OEMs to not bundle alternative browsers and media players in the OEM licensing agreements, as well as charged OEM's for all machines they sold wether or not Microsoft Windows was installed claiming people purchasing without Windows would obviously be pirating Windows. This is not the same thing.

It is the same thing. Microsoft was trying to use their position in the market to force people to use their products. By locking out all 3rd party companies, how is Apple not doing the same?

[iOrlando]

From Apple


SAN FRANCISCO (Dow Jones)--The latest version of iTunes from Apple Inc. (AAPL) has cut off rival Palm Inc.'s (PALM) Pre smartphone.

Apple's online music and video bazaar now "disables devices falsely pretending to be iPods," which includes Palm's Pre, an Apple spokesman said.

The Pre smartphone has been able to access iTunes since going on sale in the U.S. in early June. But it was always unclear whether the Pre was doing so with Apple's permission. Given the latest iTunes update, Palm appears to have been acting on its own.

The development is a negative one for Palm, which is counting on Pre sales to turn around the company. With the move, Apple has dramatically limited one of the Pre's key competitive advantages: downloading music and videos from Apple's iTunes.

"If Apple chooses to disable media sync in iTunes, it will be a direct blow to their users who will be deprived of a seamless synchronization experience," Palm spokesman Lynn Fox said,

"However, people will have options," which include using previous versions of iTunes that are still Pre-compatible, she added.

For Apple, the new iTunes underscores its commitment to allow only authorized devices, such as its iPods and iPhones, to access its iTunes music store, which helps it corral more of the profits.

"As we've said before, newer versions of Apple's iTunes software may no longer provide syncing functionality with unsupported digital media players," the Apple spokesman added.

Apple shares were trading 3.1% higher at $146.72, while Palm shares are up 4.9% to $15.34.

[dguisinger]

No, there were still third party products out there that used the ADB connector and converters to convert ADC to VGA. If the Mac OS or hardware actively sought out 3rd party hardware and blocked it, you all would be bitching up a storm.

Okay, so you want to look like a fool. I'm game. Apple pays the USB Consortium an annual fee that assigns vender IDs. That vendor ID is exclusively given to Apple for their use; Palm stole that ID to use during sync mode with iTunes. That is against the USB rules that Palm signed when they received their own IDs.

Again, Palm can write their own app that interfaces with iTunes like everyone else does.

[parapup]

First off, syncing your media that you paid for and own to a device that you paid for and own isn't stealing... it's syncing. Stop with the senseless comments that Palm was stealing.

Second, this is the kind of stuff that people hate apple for. I expected apple to do it and they certainly have every right to since they own iTunes but I guess it's disappointing when it finally does happen. Not everyone on the face of the earth can get an iPhone to carry their music with them even though they have iTunes on their computer...

Third, just get double twist. It's a better way to sync anyways for non-apple devices.

+1
Agreed completely. Wish people could be 1/10th as realistic and factual and that would make the world a better place!

[Wapa18]

Now instead of being looked at in a positive light Apple has alienated the Palm Pre crowd. :mad:


....what, all 9 of them?? :p

[stainlessliquid]

Not directly though. You have to go through CorssOver.
So I don't need to put these games in a Cider shell to run them, then, huh.

I can just double-click the .exe file and it will start, yes?

Oh. Look at that. It doesn't work.
So it would be ok if Palm made software that tricked iTunes into thinking the Pre is an iPod? I fail to see why legal third party software makes any difference. You can run exe's in OS X without having to buy Windows.

[nagromme]

As much fun as knee-jerk responses are :p Apple did NOT lock Palm or anyone else out of your iTunes library. (They may have locked one method--but left another one as open as it always has been.)

Apple officially supports 3rd-party apps that access the iTunes library. They can then copy your music to the device, playlists and all.

Having a separate "Pre Sync" app isn't as tidy as using iTunes directly (would it sync both ways?) but it would work and Apple officially supports that via "iTunes Music Library.xml."

Why not let Palm use the iTunes app directly? Maybe supporting 3rd-party devices complicates Apple's product. (And if they don't spend time/money to support 3rd-party devices, then eventually the functionality may break anyway, if only by accident.) Maybe they want the iTunes/iPod system to retain unique advantages. I don't know.

But I do know they haven't locked Palm out. Palm just tried to do this by the wrong method. They're still free to use the approved method and make a Pre Sync app. iTunes will share data with that app via XML just fine.

Apple also has syncing services for calendars and contacts on non-Apple devices (iSync), so that's available to Palm officially too.

[cg0def]

do you hear the bells Palm? Crap like this is to be expected from a Chinese company but an American one ...

[xIGmanIx]

Oh, yes, I know that; I'm just using the .exe example as coming from a different viewpoint.



So I don't need to put these games in a Cider shell to run them, then, huh.

I can just double-click the .exe file and it will start, yes?

Oh. Look at that. It doesn't work.

Aside: I have them set to be opened by SWF & FLV Player to give them a distinctive look so that I know they're worthless to me.

And i would aruge (shocker on this website i know) that you in fact are helping Microsoft out. One of the biggest selling points i have heard with the switch to intel is that you can you windows natively on your hardware. With that i would say that the percentage of users that were Mac only lowered with people dual booting or VMing windows. Microsoft doesn't make hardware primarily they make software so its a win win for them. Its off topic, but just wanted to get that out there.

NNNN

[sseelman]

Yes - it is a good thing that Apple plugged this hole.

However, I have to wonder how many people posting to this thread are also the very ones hacking to get tethering on the iPhone? I have not bothered to try to match up names from this thread to the one about the tethering hack being broken in 3.1 Beta 2, but I have to guess there are a few. I am not trying to set myself up as being any better than anyone else, but I had to laugh when I saw the word "thief" being used by a poster in this thread when talking about Palm.

I am sure I will be flamed by everyone who will say that the two things are totally different. They are? Maybe they are. I would say that the tethering hack is worse, as I understand it to be a direct violation of the AT&T terms of service.

Let the flaming begin.

[casik]

First off, syncing your media that you paid for and own to a device that you paid for and own isn't stealing... it's syncing. Stop with the senseless comments that Palm was stealing.


It isn't music that people are saying is being stolen :P It is the intelectual property of using iTunes to sync with non Apple devices. Apple makes iTunes, they have a right to choose what it syncs with.

Does Nikon let Canon Camera's sync with Nikon transfer?

Same argument.

[Tallest Skil]

So it would be ok if Palm made software that tricked iTunes into thinking the Pre is an iPod? I fail to see why legal third party software makes any difference. You can run exe's in OS X without having to buy Windows.

No, they should be writing their own application through which the Pre works, just like everyone else out there.

[b0kaj]

I simply do not understand how making something compatible can be considered stealing, can someone please explain that?

If Apple has to continue being the way they are about it, I guess Palm should implement a separate syncing tool that just reads all the music/podcast/video files off the hard-drive.

But stealing? Camon...

[stainlessliquid]

No, they should be writing their own application through which the Pre works, just like everyone else out there.

so what you said about exes was completely irrelevant to the conversation?

[jav6454]

It isn't music that people are saying is being stolen :P It is the intelectual property of using iTunes to sync with non Apple devices. Apple makes iTunes, they have a right to choose what it syncs with.

Does Nikon let Canon Camera's sync with Nikon transfer?

Same argument.

This is well true. No one arguing the music property rights. What Apple has the right to is do whatever they want with their software including (unluckily for some) blocking rival products from accessing iTunes Sync


so what you said about exes was completely irrelevant to the conversation?

They don't run directly do they?

[Peace]

I simply do not understand how making something compatible can be considered stealing, can someone please explain that?

If Apple has to continue being the way they are about it, I guess Palm should implement a separate syncing tool that just reads all the music/podcast/video files off the hard-drive.

But stealing? Camon...

It's very simple. Palm made it so iTunes "thought" the Pre was an iPod.

Got it? an iPod.
The Pre is NOT an iPod.

It's called deception.

[Corrosive vinyl]

thanks orlando. makes much more sense now. palm should have their phone say what it is, not what it is not. wolf in sheep's clothing. smart as a hack, not from a manufacturer though.

[Tallest Skil]

so what you said about exes was completely irrelevant to the conversation?

I'm sorry that you didn't get it.

Apple being allowed to restrict direct iTunes access is the same as an inability to run .exe applications.

I commented that I couldn't care less that we can't run .exe files natively, as that would open up a world of pain.

[stainlessliquid]

They don't run directly do they?If Apple wanted to do the same thing that Crossover does then they could, thats the point.

[b0kaj]

It's very simple. Palm made it so iTunes "thought" the Pre was an iPod.

Got it? an iPod.
The Pre is NOT an iPod.

It's called deception.

Stealing what? Sorry, you lost me when you explained how the stealing worked.

[dguisinger]

It's very simple. Palm made it so iTunes "thought" the Pre was an iPod.

Got it? an iPod.
The Pre is NOT an iPod.

It's called deception.

Makes you wonder if Palm could have done that so easily without hiring ex-iPod engineers... and if they couldn't, then that is an illegal use of trade secrets and those employees and Palm could be used.

[SubtltzSir]

At risk of starting a new rant (be kind - I'm new here), what ever happened to this early June press release? Seems to be a lead-in to a bigger market for iTunes...

http://www.webnewswire.com/node/456014

It's still out there so I know my memory isn't completely at fault for remembering this. I just find it strange that no one else noticed this particular bit of news. And it was June 1st, not April 1st! :rolleyes:

[sohelpme]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/15/itunes-8-2-1-reportedly-breaks-palm-pre-syncing/)

According to a posting at PreCentral (http://www.precentral.net/apple-blocks-palm-pre-itunes-syncing) and a report in our own forums (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=8091053#post8091053), this is indeed the case, signaling the latest salvo in the ongoing dispute between Apple and Palm, which has hired a number of former Apple employees in recent years as it attempts to outdo the iPhone.

Article Link: iTunes 8.2.1 Reportedly Breaks Palm Pre Syncing (http://www.macrumors.com/2009/07/15/itunes-8-2-1-reportedly-breaks-palm-pre-syncing/)

If I recall reports on Palm's implementation correctly, they coded in one of the USB identifiers on their phone the same as what Apple uses for an iPod. But Palm, to follow USB specs, still needs to code the device as having a manufacturer identifier as being from Palm. I would be that instead of just matching on the device type, iTunes now matches on both device type and manufacturer id for the device to show in iTunes.

It's unlikely Palm will flash their devices to violate the USB spec (by changing the manufacturer id on the Pre's to Apple's), so they'll either have to:
-hack the usb stack on Mac/Windows to fool iTunes into seeing it as an Apple device
-hack iTunes into using it's old behaviour
-write their own syncing software

This last part is what they should have done in the first place.

[jav6454]

Stealing what? Sorry, you lost me when you explained how the stealing worked.

I don't think he mentioned stealing....

[hagjohn]

Apple doesn't care. They don't make that much revenue from sales of songs in iTunes.....it's all about the hardware!

-Kevin

edit: macfan70 beat me to it!


and if you open up iTunes to competitors, you could sell a lot more songs, which could bring in more revenue, bragging rights and possibly better negotiations when they are talking to the music execs.

[parapup]

Okay, so you want to look like a fool. I'm game. Apple pays the USB Consortium an annual fee that assigns vender IDs. That vendor ID is exclusively given to Apple for their use; Palm stole that ID to use during sync mode with iTunes. That is against the USB rules that Palm signed when they received their own IDs.

Again, Palm can write their own app that interfaces with iTunes like everyone else does.

That may be a touchy subject for you but the law does not prohibit such a thing. See Sega vs. Accolade which isn't exactly the same thing, but similar. Also, if it indeed was stealing for Palm, it would be in court long time ago.

[inkswamp]

And in five days Palm will come out with a new firmware update to fix this problem...

Palm really painted themselves into a corner. Apple will continue to throw a monkey wrench into things with each iTunes update, forcing Palm to rush a fix out the door. Think Pre users are going to enjoy alternating between broken iTunes compatibility (a promised feature, remember) and a firmware update? I doubt it.

I said it at the start and I'll say it again: Palm was foolish to have attempted this iTunes compatibility thing. They should drop it altogether and seek a legitimate partner for music downloads.

[dragossh]

Oh, look! People are happy that another product that dared to sync with iTunes is now locked up! Apple is so great and M$ sucks!

cant believe palm didnt make a great syncing software for their phone lol...

That’s because you don’t NEED a syncing software to put something on your Palm Pre. Drag&drop. I believe it’s touted as a cool feature of OS X too. Syncing software is just an added bonus.

Palm stole that ID to use during sync mode with iTunes.

I’m sorry, you are telling me Palm stole a string? Are you serious? The Pre emulates an iPod just like Wine emulates Windows. I don’t see anyone complaining about Wine. Double standards FTW.

I can’t believe some of you. If Microsoft did this, you’d be saying “hahaha. M$ sucks and they should pay $$$ for this.” When it’s Apple, you are all like “yay! Apple is locking me into their products!”

Anyway, people can still use doubleTwist to sync their Pre.

[windywoo]

I'm sorry that you didn't get it.

Apple being allowed to restrict direct iTunes access is the same as an inability to run .exe applications.

I commented that I couldn't care less that we can't run .exe files natively, as that would open up a world of pain.

What a ridiculous argument and you know it.

[dguisinger]

That may be a touchy subject for you but the law does not prohibit such a thing. See Sega vs. Accolade which isn't exactly the same thing, but similar. Also, if it indeed was stealing for Palm, it would be in court long time ago.

No one said it was illegal; however Palm could lose their ability to use the USB specification because they signed a contract - and therefore Palm's products could be forcibly recalled under contract law because they signed agreements and have to abide by them.

[kbmb]

At risk of starting a new rant (be kind - I'm new here), what ever happened to this early June press release? Seems to be a lead-in to a bigger market for iTunes...

http://www.webnewswire.com/node/456014

It's still out there so I know my memory isn't completely at fault for remembering this. I just find it strange that no one else noticed this particular bit of news. And it was June 1st, not April 1st! :rolleyes:

Because that release was really from 2004!

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/jul/26motorola.html
http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail.jsp?globalObjectId=4505_3838_23

-Kevin

[Tallest Skil]

What a ridiculous argument and you know it.

Mmm... no. It isn't. So Apple should sue Microsoft for the ability to run .exe files? I think not.

THAT is a ridiculous argument.

[Roessnakhan]

I think its a bad move on Apple's part, but then it was also a bad move on Palm's part to advertise a loophole as a selling point.

[macfan70]

I simply do not understand how making something compatible can be considered stealing, can someone please explain that?

If Apple has to continue being the way they are about it, I guess Palm should implement a separate syncing tool that just reads all the music/podcast/video files off the hard-drive.

But stealing? Camon...

OK Not Stealing - But why does Apple have to put in resources to make other companies hardware compatible with iTunes. As mentioned earlier, by a more knowledgeable poster, they did not lock Palm out. Palm was just being lazy and trying to market their product by saying that it works like the iPhone in iTunes.

They can still come up with their own synch solution, let them invest r&d in their own hardware.

[pdjudd]

If Apple wanted to do the same thing that Crossover does then they could, thats the point.
Of course If someone like Apple did try and do it, MS would change how their API's and application framework operated to simply stop them - and they would be in the right to do so. MS doesn't stop the Crossover/WINE project because its very limited in application and a small player - not worth their effort. Of course the more prominent they get, the aggressive MS will be to stop them.

[jav6454]

Oh, look! People are happy another product that dared to sync with iTunes is now locked up! Apple is so great and M$ sucks!


Ok I know you are trolling, but I'm going to answer anyways...:rolleyes:


That’s because you don’t NEED a syncing software to put something on your Palm Pre. Drag&drop. I believe it’s touted as a cool feature of OS X too. Syncing software is just an added bonus.


Drag and drop isn't universal. It work for Applications, not devices trying to acquire certain files.


I’m sorry, you are telling me Palm stole a string? Are you serious? The Pre emulates an iPod just like Wine emulates Windows. I don’t see anyone complaining about Wine. Double standards FTW.

I can’t believe some of you. If Microsoft did this, you’d be saying “hahaha. M$ sucks and they should pay $$$ for this.” When it’s Apple, you are all like “yay! Apple is locking me into their products!”

Anyway, people can still use doubleTwist to sync their Pre.

Yes, it emulates an iPod, and its not supposed to. If Palm had went to Apple for this, then no problem. But as it is, Palm is uses deception code to make iTunes believe a fake iPod. Apple is well in their rights as software owner to fix said bug/glitch.

[anjinha]

+1
Agreed completely. Wish people could be 1/10th as realistic and factual and that would make the world a better place!

You can still use and sync all your media, just not with iTunes.

[dguisinger]

Oh, look! People are happy another product that dared to sync with iTunes is now locked up! Apple is so great and M$ sucks!



That’s because you don’t NEED a syncing software to put something on your Palm Pre. Drag&drop. I believe it’s touted as a cool feature of OS X too. Syncing software is just an added bonus.

I’m sorry, you are telling me Palm stole a string? Are you serious? The Pre emulates an iPod just like Wine emulates Windows. I don’t see anyone complaining about Wine. Double standards FTW.

I can’t believe some of you. If Microsoft did this, you’d be saying “hahaha. M$ sucks and they should pay $$$ for this.” When it’s Apple, you are all like “yay! Apple is locking me into their products!”

Anyway, people can still use doubleTwist to sync their Pre.

I'm a hardware engineer and take this quite seriously. When a company signs a licensing agreement (for example, USB license) they agree to only use their ID, and pay thousands of dollars a year to own that number. Palm and Apple are both licensees. Palm creates compatibility issues and breaks the guarantee of unique devices that is given by the USB spec. Palm isn't breaking just Apple's rules, they are breaking USB Consortium rules, which can result in their license being terminated.

So stop pulling a holier than throw attitude, its the same with PCI and all other licensed plug-n-play technologies. Device identifiers are paid for, licensed, and owned for a reason. If you don't like it, don't license (and therefore don't use) USB.

[parapup]

No one said it was illegal; however Palm could lose their ability to use the USB specification because they signed a contract - and therefore Palm's products could be forcibly recalled under contract law because they signed agreements and have to abide by them.

Well last I checked "stealing" was illegal ? (checks your post for word "stole") :confused:

The thing is if Palm is faking USB Ids for the sake of interoperability and public benefit no one is going to be able to legally revoke their contract. Even the USB vendor ID form allows this to be done under special circumstances.

Accolade "Stole" Sega's password to make compatible games and court said that was fine. Check (http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade) the case.

[Goona]

I wonder why RIM wasn't smart like Palm to use this but instead choose to make their own application to sync with iTunes.

[parapup]

You can still use and sync all your media, just not with iTunes.

And why exactly am I forced to use something else after having paid for the Mac/OS and software that comes with it? Because Apple doesn't like it?

[gatepc]

I really don't know where to go with this. I think apple did the right thing because they spent lots of money developing itunes and then some company ( palm ) is just going to start using it for there devices? I don't think that is right! but then I think apple is being kinda a dick about blocking potentialy costumers. I mean apple could potentially make money from the palm pre crowd.

[str1f3]

Big surprise.:eek:

[Shasterball]

Good!! I dislike thieves.

??? Who's the thief?

[Krizoitz]

Now instead of being looked at in a positive light Apple has alienated the Palm Pre crowd. :mad:


All three of them ;)

Look, why should Apple provide free help for Palm? If Palm wants to add sync capabilities they should write their own software OR come to an agreement with Apple on doing it honestly and openly. Palm chose to be lazy and sneaky and they deserve what they get. They aren't the victim here, they are the thief.

[stainlessliquid]

Mmm... no. It isn't. So Apple should sue Microsoft for the ability to run .exe files? I think not.

THAT is a ridiculous argument.

No, your argument is ridiculous. EXE's can run OSX. Needing extra software does not change anything. Thats like saying .torrents dont work in OSX.

[Peace]

I really don't know where to go with this. I think apple did the right thing because they spent lots of money developing itunes and then some company ( palm ) is just going to start using it for there devices? I don't think that is right! but then I think apple is being kinda a dick about blocking potentialy costumers. I mean apple could potentially make money from the palm pre crowd.


Apple makes very little off the iTunes music/video store. Their money comes from hardware.

[dragossh]

OK Not Stealing - But why does Apple have to put in resources to make other companies hardware compatible with iTunes.

It’s called interoperability. Why does Apple have to support hardware from 3rd parties on OS X?

Ok I know you are trolling, but I'm going to answer anyways...:rolleyes:

I’m not trolling. I’m just sick of the constant bashing of anything that is not Apple and of the level of fanboyism on this forum.

Drag and drop isn't universal. It work for Applications, not devices trying to acquire certain files.

Grab a Pre, and throw some media at it using Finder. See if it works.

Yes, it emulates an iPod, and its not supposed to. If Palm had went to Apple for this, then no problem. But as it is, Palm is uses deception code to make iTunes believe a fake iPod. Apple is well in their rights as software owner to fix said bug/glitch.

Wine emulates Windows without Microsoft’s approval. That’s not stealing, and not illegal. Pre - iTunes is the exact same situation. Apple is in their rights to break Pre syncing, of course, but I’m no lawyer. This could very well be investigated by the DOJ or the EU.

[dguisinger]

Well last I checked "stealing" was illegal ? (checks your post for word "stole") :confused:

The thing is if Palm is faking USB Ids for the sake of interoperability and public benefit no one is going to be able to legally revoke their contract. Even the USB vendor ID form allows this to be done under special circumstances.

Accolade "Stole" Sega's password to make compatible games and court said that was fine. Check (http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade) the case.

the USB Consortium ONLY allows it with the owning vendor's permission or if they go out of business. Did Apple give permission? No. Did Apple go out of business? No. Apple owns those IDs under the agreement, Palm by stealing them breaks the guarantees provided by the consortium license, and therefore Palms own IDs and license can be revoked.

There is stealing as in physical property under the law, illegal.
There is stealing as in using intellectual property which must be settled via courts and contract law, it may not be illegal but if it violates a contract the contract can be terminated.

[anjinha]

And why exactly am I forced to use something else after having paid for the Mac/OS and software that comes with it? Because Apple doesn't like it?

iTunes is free and you can use it with Windows too.

Maybe you people don't understand but part of Apple's agreement with the record labels for iTMS is that iTunes only works with iPods. If Apple allowed this it could create some trouble for them with the labels.

Also if Palm wanted to use iTunes they could have tried to reach an agreement with Apple. Instead they chose the sneaky way. That is their own fault.

[SubtltzSir]

Because that release was really from 2004!

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/jul/26motorola.html
http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail.jsp?globalObjectId=4505_3838_23

-Kevin

Thanks Kevin. Not sure why it's dated 2009 on the site I linked to, but obviously SOMEONE (not me) actually doesn't just skim the articles that Google News sees fit to pull up.

Sign me - embarrassed - :o.

[Sehnsucht]

This is like Nintendo and their lockout chips, or Sega and their lockout chips on their cartridge video game systems, or HP and their ink-cartridge lockout chips, but with the added anti-trust issues that Apple is messing with if they actually succeed. Don't forget, Apple was already zinged by France over iTunes store.

This is the same crap you Apple fanboys would be flaming Microsoft over if they were the ones locking out competition.

For the millionth time. Apple doesn't have to allow third-party devices to sync with their software. Songs purchased from the iTunes store can still be played on the Pre, there is simply no syncing. You "anti-monopoly" people are so full of it. Should I be flustered that I can't use my iPod touch with the Zune desktop software? And speaking of that, check out this out:

The Zune is made by Microsoft. It can sync only with Zune Desktop. Zune Desktop, also made by Microsoft, is only available for Windows, which is also made by Microsoft.

See where that's going? Lack of syncing ability does not hamper Pre users from being able to use the iTunes store. It's not anti-competitive, it's exactly what the hell anyone else would do. :rolleyes:

[marksman]

Unless apple has some encryption key on all the iphones I am not sure how they could keep Palm from just doing it again. I hope they do, then they could lock them out. Otherwise, though, all that is going between the iphone/pre and itunes is data, and palm can spoof it to say whatever iTunes needs to hear to believe it is an iphone.

I hope Apple does have a way to verify the device that is not just spoofed by palm. I don't have a problem with Apple doing this. There is no reason to help/allow your competitor to make their product more appealing to the public at your expense. The downside is much greater than the updside for apple here, and thus doing this makes perfect sense.

[Krizoitz]

And why exactly am I forced to use something else after having paid for the Mac/OS and software that comes with it? Because Apple doesn't like it?

Uh yeah exactly. Apple provides iTunes FOR FREE to anyone and everyone. It allows you to buy music and media, manage it, and play it. In addition if you have an iPod or iPhone you can sync too.

Now you think they should have to write Palms software for them? If Palm wants to sync information with the pre they either need to do it through public API's honestly, or they need to write their own solution, or they need to come to an agreement with able.

Instead they decided to be lazy/sneaky and get all the benefit with very little work.

Apple, understandly said no way.

[macnchiefs]

It isn't music that people are saying is being stolen :P It is the intelectual property of using iTunes to sync with non Apple devices. Apple makes iTunes, they have a right to choose what it syncs with.

Does Nikon let Canon Camera's sync with Nikon transfer?

Same argument.

I don't think Canon would go that route since they have their own software and Nikon doesn't have a total monopoly on picture management software but I understand your argument.

Is Palm stealing because they just used the syncing function inherent in iTunes? Has apple patented the ability to sync from iTunes without third party software? Or is this just a case where they are closing a hole where iTunes can recognize non apple devices as an iPod?

I think it's the latter. If Palm was truly "stealing" anything then you probably would have seen lawsuits. Instead it's probably more of a case where Apple plugged a hole where iTunes could recognize non apple devices as an iPod. And again as I stated before they have the full right to do so since they own iTunes. There is nothing wrong in what they did.

If you do own a non-apple device and use iTunes on your computer then just use doubletwist. And really it's a better solution since you don't have Apple's odd numbering scheme with all the folders where you music resides.

But I also hope that people who congratulate Apple for doing this are not the ones turning around jailbreaking their phones or teathering... that would make everyone a bunch of hypocrits and we all know those don't exist on these boards right?...

[slapppy]

Why should these guys ride of the hard work that Apple has done. Let them create their own store. :mad:

[t22design]

The first couple of pages of this thread helps me understand why some people hate Apple fanboys.

Palm should have sought whatever licenses they needed, but celebratory posts about 8.2.1 breaking Pre syncing are juvenile.

[Rootus]

Apple is in their rights to break Pre syncing, of course, but I’m no lawyer. This could very well be investigated by the DOJ or the EU. You don't have to be a lawyer to see that the DOJ and EU won't care. Anti-competitive behavior is not illegal unless you are a monopoly. Apple is a long ways from having a monopoly in the music player market.

[nagromme]

And why exactly am I forced to use something else after having paid for the Mac/OS and software that comes with it? Because Apple doesn't like it?

No, you'd have to use something else because iTunes doesn't sync with Pre and "something else" (a sync app that I'm sure Palm will release) does. If Palm is late with that, it's worth complaining to Palm.

So, you use iTunes AND a free app from Palm. You do NOT have to give up the iTunes you paid for (although actually that's free even on Windows). You can keep using iTunes and then listen to your iTunes music on your Pre even AFTER this hole was closed. iTunes officially supports 3rd-party companion apps, which is the right way to do what Palm wants. Now they just need to do it.

When you bought from Apple, you didn't buy on the promise of Apple supporting Pre by any particular method, unless you misunderstood something. There IS a right method, but Palm chose not to use it.

Palm took a risk in that--and worse, they made customers like YOU take the risk with them.

Blame Apple if you want, but blame Palm more. There was a REAL solution (XML) always available to them, and they didn't use it. They thought pretending to be an iPod was a clever trick--and it was--but few people expected it to make sense in the long run.

I suppose Palm may have done it all as a publicity stunt? Make Apple close the hole and then look bad? But few people will care--and Apple already has a reputation for being closed (which is amusing when compared with Microsoft). So I don't see what PR advantage this is really worth to Palm. A very small one, and at a high price to Palm users. If Palm saw this coming (and surely they did) then they knowingly allowed their Pre customers to run into problems down the road. If I were a Palm customer I wouldn't care for that strategy!

[JayMan8081]

This isn't really all that surprising considering Palm's syncing was a hack to begin with. So now Palm will release an update for the Pre that will work around whatever changes Apple just made. Here we go!

[ortuno2k]

I'm glad they released it and it breaks Palm syncing.
Shows them not to steal software and/or ideas.

[aurichie]

+1 - Why alienate a potential customer? People buying Pres are buying them because they fit their needs better for various reasons, why not get revenue from the iTunes store?

Because they make more money from selling hardware at extortionate prices than selling other peoples content for nickel and dime margins. That's the Apple business model.

And I'm not sure why Palm wants to bother with iTunes. It's horrible software on both Windows and Mac. Palm should just take advantage of the syncing capabilities of Windows Media Player; software 95%+ of the market is already using and let Apple keep their closed shop.

[BoyBach]

Whilst I have some sympathy with Pre owners and the argument that this move is somewhat petty, it doesn't change the fact that Apple has absolutely zero obligation to support a rival product.

[Peace]

They should put a "do not steal iTunes devices" kext in iTunes :D

[macfan70]

It’s called interoperability. Why does Apple have to support hardware from 3rd parties on OS X?


With respect to software, the term interoperability is used to describe the capability of different programs to exchange data via a common set of exchange formats, to read and write the same file formats, and to use the same protocols.

The Pre can still access the songs and iTunes can access the songs. That means there is interoperability.

This is about access to the data not access to the software.

[b0kaj]

OK Not Stealing - But why does Apple have to put in resources to make other companies hardware compatible with iTunes. As mentioned earlier, by a more knowledgeable poster, they did not lock Palm out. Palm was just being lazy and trying to market their product by saying that it works like the iPhone in iTunes.


They don't have to invest their resources to make something else compatible, Palm did that themselves. But they just put in their own resources to make sure that the Palm cannot sync with iTunes. Apple doesn't have to support anything, but they don't have to make things incompatible either.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Apple doesn't have the right, they can do whatever they want with their product, and I have the right to think they are being too narrow-minded about the whole thing.


They can still come up with their own synch solution, let them invest r&d in their own hardware.


There is no investment needed in hardware... Palm just have to implement a simple application that syncs stuff from the iTunes library. An app that is not integrated in iTunes, but works exactly the same.

I never liked lock-ins, but apparently a lot of people do... I guess it just depends what they are locked-in to. I say, I never want to be locked in, but I can choose to use certain products.

[dragossh]

The Zune is made by Microsoft. It can sync only with Zune Desktop. Zune Desktop, also made by Microsoft, is only available for Windows, which is also made by Microsoft.

Yes, but in this case Zune Desktop is clearly a Zune-only software. Your argument would hold if Apple wrote some code to enable Windows Media Player to work with iPhone and then Microsoft broke it.

With respect to software, the term interoperability is used to describe the capability of different programs to exchange data via a common set of exchange formats, to read and write the same file formats, and to use the same protocols.

The Pre can still access the songs and iTunes can access the songs. That means there is interoperability.

This is about access to the data not access to the software.

And how would Pre access iTunes’ library if Apple broke that and Palm has no helper app for it?

[dguisinger]

You don't have to be a lawyer to see that the DOJ and EU won't care. Anti-competitive behavior is not illegal unless you are a monopoly. Apple is a long ways from having a monopoly in the music player market.

I don't know about that; but Apple is a long way from being anti-competitive.

Being competitive doesn't mean doing your competitors work.
Anti-competitive would be stopping all non-iPods from working on OSX and refusing to work with MP3s on the computer. They aren't doing that, just saying hey, write your own software instead of stealing our intellectual property we own and developed by leaching our old employees.

[aurichie]

You don't have to be a lawyer to see that the DOJ and EU won't care. Anti-competitive behavior is not illegal unless you are a monopoly. Apple is a long ways from having a monopoly in the music player market.

Actually they are not long ways from being a monopoly. And the EU have already investigated Apple once and ruled against them. :)

[kingtj]

Apple only "loses" in the sense that they lose out on some music or video sales off iTunes, by Pre owners. It's apparent that Apple doesn't consider those losses as outweighing the benefits for them (more new smartphone buyers choosing an iPhone instead of a Palm Pre phone, under these circumstances).

They're probably quite right too. Do you really think the typical Pre owner is likely to buy enough music or movie content off iTunes over the life of the device that they spend more on it than what Apple makes on an iPhone sale, plus their cut of a corresponding AT&T service contract?


If I had a Pre that would be the last time I ever updated iTunes. Keeping iTunes up to date is totally not worth losing compatibility, if they used the iTunes store then I guess they could resort to amazon or piracy. Either way Apple loses.

[Goona]

For the millionth time. Apple doesn't have to allow third-party devices to sync with their software. Songs purchased from the iTunes store can still be played on the Pre, there is simply no syncing. You "anti-monopoly" people are so full of it. Should I be flustered that I can't use my iPod touch with the Zune desktop software? And speaking of that, check out this out:

The Zune is made by Microsoft. It can sync only with Zune Desktop. Zune Desktop, also made by Microsoft, is only available for Windows, which is also made by Microsoft.

See where that's going? Lack of syncing ability does not hamper Pre users from being able to use the iTunes store. It's not anti-competitive, it's exactly what the hell anyone else would do. :rolleyes:I wonder why all the Pre users aren't compalining that they can't sync the Pre with Zune Desktop?

[Rot'nApple]

Will those former Apple employees now working on the PRE, will they be hard at work to revamp the Pre's software code to re-link to the ITMS? :confused:

How hard can it be with all the jail break iPhones of earlier iPhone OS's from people who didn't care for the ATT/Apple alliance and said Apple be damned, I bought it, it's my phone, to do as I wish...

I'm sure the PRE users are say it's my phone, I bought it, to do as I wish and I wish to connect to Apple ITMS pretending to be an iPod! Now let me log on dammit! :rolleyes: :D

[midget]

To all of you complaining and whining and defending Apple, what if Apple said that only their keyboards and mice would work with Mac? What if they said that only the $900 Cinema Display would work with a Mac? Would you be defending them?
Actually this is completely different, #1 iTunes is free and you can put any songs on it don't have to be purchased in the store so you really don't have to use the service for anything more than a GUI for music, music player, and a way to sync, #2 You can get 3rd party hardware especially if LICENSED by Apple and also when using on Apple hardware which you dropped some big $$$ on. The Pre isn't a 3rd party device for Apple, it's just another phone tricking iTunes into thinking it's an iPod.

[dguisinger]

I wonder why all the Pre users aren't compalining that they can't sync the Pre with Zune Desktop?

Apparently it needs to be called iPod Desktop for them to realize its designed for the iPod.

[bstreiff]

This is like Nintendo and their lockout chips, or Sega and their lockout chips on their cartridge video game systems, or HP and their ink-cartridge lockout chips, but with the added anti-trust issues that Apple is messing with if they actually succeed.

Not to mention that lockout chips didn't work out so well for Sega (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega#Sega_versus_Accolade).

[Rootus]

Actually they are not long ways from being a monopoly. And the EU have already investigated Apple once and ruled against them. :) Unless the EU is getting very liberal with their definition of monopoly, Apple ain't anywhere close.

[schalkse]

First off, syncing your media that you paid for and own to a device that you paid for and own isn't stealing... it's syncing. Stop with the senseless comments that Palm was stealing.

Second, this is the kind of stuff that people hate apple for. I expected apple to do it and they certainly have every right to since they own iTunes but I guess it's disappointing when it finally does happen. Not everyone on the face of the earth can get an iPhone to carry their music with them even though they have iTunes on their computer...

Third, just get double twist. It's a better way to sync anyways for non-apple devices.

That's a stupid comment. Palm is trying to use the ease-of-use of itunes to make their product look better. If you want the DRM-free music you bought on itunes on your palm, then you can, but not via itunes. All your itunes music is easy to find in the library an you can drag it anywhere you want and put it on any device you want.

Good move Apple!

[cocamouthwash]

"Good artists copy. Great artist steal."
Steve Jobs quoting Picasso.

Lol but don't copy Apple or the fanboys will whine, and then Apple will make fun of you during a Keynote.

[arian19]

If apple didn't allow leopard to sync with the pre, then that would be a crime, but iTunes is made for iPods and iPhones... so they have no right to use it

[dragossh]

Anti-competitive would be stopping all non-iPods from working on OSX and refusing to work with MP3s on the computer. They aren't doing that, just saying hey, write your own software instead of stealing our intellectual property we own and developed by leaching our old employees.

No, they are stopping all non-Apple-blessed devices from working on iTunes.

And for the nth time, Palm did not steal anything. Did they steal iTunes’ source code and turned it into their iPalm product?

Apparently it needs to be called iPod Desktop for them to realize its designed for the iPod.

Actually, no, it needs to be a syncing software primarily instead of a media player. Something with iTunes is not.

[Goona]

Actually they are not long ways from being a monopoly. And the EU have already investigated Apple once and ruled against them. :)

Link to this ruling.

[moka]

this is awesome, Great News!

[macfan70]

They don't have to invest their resources to make something else compatible, Palm did that themselves. But they just put in their own resources to make sure that the Palm cannot sync with iTunes. Apple doesn't have to support anything, but they don't have to make things incompatible either.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Apple doesn't have the right, they can do whatever they want with their product, and I have the right to think they are being too narrow-minded about the whole thing.



There is no investment needed in hardware... Palm just have to implement a simple application that syncs stuff from the iTunes library. An app that is not integrated in iTunes, but works exactly the same.

I never liked lock-ins, but apparently a lot of people do... I guess it just depends what they are locked-in to. I say, I never want to be locked in, but I can choose to use certain products.

They do have to invest in continued support for Palm and any one else who wants to use Palms solution. Any future development would have to take in to account these back door implementations.

In Regards to my statement about R&D, I meant that they should (as you said) make their own software solution that works with their hardware and not just hope that a third party would continue to support their product.

[Tallest Skil]

No, your argument is ridiculous. EXE's can run OSX. Needing extra software does not change anything. Thats like saying .torrents dont work in OSX.

Okay, am I doing it wrong, then? Should I hold Option when I double-click the .exe file?

Or maybe it's a third party application that is allowing you to run them, meaning you're a hypocrite and my argument is sound.

[JtheLemur]

Yes, but in this case Zune Desktop is clearly a Zune-only software. Your argument would hold if Apple wrote some code to enable Windows Media Player to work with iPhone and then Microsoft broke it.


Go look at the iTunes site. It's clearly an iDevice-only piece of software (if your device manufacturer hasn't made a proper helper app, that is). S

And how would Pre access iTunes’ library if Apple broke that and Palm has no helper app for it?

Same way RIM software does it. The proper way.

Sehnsucht made exactly the point I was going to make. Argument is over. http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=8091606&postcount=115

I wonder why all the Pre users aren't compalining that they can't sync the Pre with Zune Desktop?

Well, because no one cares about Zune. Go ahead, try to disprove that.

[Ntombi]

I can see both sides of it, and if Apple and Palm had come to an agreement, I (as a long-time Apple and Palm customer) would have celebrated it. But at the end of the day, Palm didn't ask, it took, and it tricked Apple's software to do so. Therefore, they deserved to be cut off.

[akm3]

Good for Apple if this is true. They have no obligation to support the software compatibility of a non-licensing competitor.

I'm an Apple stock holder, and I agree they have no obligation to support competitors, but purposefully breaking compatibility is just venomous. Their is already more and more clamouring about Apple's monopoly with the iTunes store (more related to music purchasing and abusing the labels then only their hardware being compatible) and doing this kind of stuff will just bring regulatory investigation sooner rather than later.

What they SHOULD have done is just said "we can't promise it won't break in the future", and waited to see if the Pre actually stole a significant number of iPhone sales, and if it does, THEN break it in a more routine update rather then a 'So *THERE*' get back at you type of update.

-allen

[Chairman Plow]

Apple pays the USB Consortium an annual fee that assigns vender IDs. That vendor ID is exclusively given to Apple for their use; Palm stole that ID to use during sync mode with iTunes. That is against the USB rules that Palm signed when they received their own IDs.

Again, Palm can write their own app that interfaces with iTunes like everyone else does.

Ding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder why RIM wasn't smart like Palm to use this but instead choose to make their own application to sync with iTunes.

I'm not so sure I would call it smart.

[macfan70]

I can see both sides of it, and if Apple and Palm had come to an agreement, I (as a long-time Apple and Palm customer) would have celebrated it. But at the end of the day, Palm didn't ask, it took, and it tricked Apple's software to do so. Therefore, they deserved to be cut off.

I had a palm device before my iphone and I was very happy to hear about the Pre, but when I saw that they promised iTunes support without working out a deal with Apple, I knew they were in trouble.

[akutad]

+1 - Why alienate a potential customer? People buying Pres are buying them because they fit their needs better for various reasons, why not get revenue from the iTunes store?

+2 I own my music. Let me sync using iTunes. I don't want ANOTHER app to control my library. Think about the consumer!

[xIGmanIx]

That's a stupid comment. Palm is trying to use the ease-of-use of itunes to make their product look better. If you want the DRM-free music you bought on itunes on your palm, then you can, but not via itunes. All your itunes music is easy to find in the library an you can drag it anywhere you want and put it on any device you want.

Good move Apple!

I would hardly say iTunes is easy to use. To me its bulky and not intuitive and lacking features other third party software does better. This is from a windows PC user HAVING to use iTunes for my iPhone

[parapup]

Instead they decided to be lazy/sneaky and get all the benefit with very little work.

Apple, understandly said no way.

Huh? To the fanbois and Apple that may be sneaky/lazy but to most others it is a smart solution - reducing the number of software needed to sync is a good thing. If Apple has already got iTunes out and without special effort it syncs with 10 other devices out there - it is a great thing.

Sure Microsoft does not want Outlook to sync with anything other than Exchange - people already are building compatible servers and selling for free/less than exchange. If they deliberately made Outlook not work with those servers, they would be in hot water.

[dragossh]

Go look at the iTunes site. It's clearly an iDevice-only piece of software (if your device manufacturer hasn't made a proper helper app, that is). S

iTunes started out as a media player. Over the past 8 years, it added iPod and iPhone support. It’s still a media player, while Zune Desktop was created as a Zune syncing app.

Somehow, Apple is criticized for subsequently making sure the support very clearly isn't there any more than Zune Desktop doesn't support Pre - so why is it that Apple is yelled at but Microsoft isn't? same thing.

See above, and because Microsoft doesn’t break things intentionally in their music software.

[ctdonath]

I wonder why all the Pre users aren't compalining that they can't sync the Pre with Zune Desktop?

Exactly.

Before Pre/iTunes compatibility was hacked in, nobody seriously complained that iTunes didn't support Pre. It's iTunes, it supports iPods, understood, end of story. Nobody seriously complains that Zune Desktop doesn't support iPods, Pres, or anything else other than a Zune. Fine, that makes sense.

Then the Pre gets some hack-job fake-out software added to trick iTunes into supporting the Pre. Suddenly, Pre users expect iTunes to support the Pre (well, 'cuz it does now, right?). Then if anything subsequently goes wrong between the two, it's at least partially Apple's fault for not supporting the Pre properly - even though Apple never intended the support and didn't agree to it. Somehow, Apple is criticized for subsequently making sure the support very clearly isn't there any more than Zune Desktop doesn't support Pre - so why is it that Apple is yelled at but Microsoft isn't? same thing.

[Shake 'n' Bake]

If I had a Palm Pre and I couldn't use iTunes to sync it, I'd complain and then write my own app to do it for me. It's a pretty simple solution.

[parapup]

To all of you complaining and whining and defending Apple, what if Apple said that only their keyboards and mice would work with Mac? What if they said that only the $900 Cinema Display would work with a Mac? Would you be defending them?

Hey they already almost did the $900 display part!

[NightStorm]

No, they are stopping all non-Apple-blessed devices from working on iTunes.

Not true; Apple offers a number of legitimate ways for third-party applications and devices to access information in the iTunes library. Palm simply found a vulnerability and exploited it. Apple fixed the vulnerability... this is no different that a security update, only this one fixes an issue that wasn't malicious (at least in this instance).

I agree with most people here... why in the world should Apple be forced to ensure their software works with a 3rd party device that is ignoring the rules and masquerading as an iPod when it clearly is not. Palm was really stupid to tout this as a big feature.

[Artofilm]

That's a stupid comment. Palm is trying to use the ease-of-use of itunes to make their product look better. If you want the DRM-free music you bought on itunes on your palm, then you can, but not via itunes. All your itunes music is easy to find in the library an you can drag it anywhere you want and put it on any device you want.

Good move Apple!

I totally agree there!
One of the things that makes iPods and iPhones great is the ability and ease of use to sync with iTunes. Palm just skipped that step and used someone else's software to make their own product look better like you said.

Kinda cheap if you ask me!

[BoyBach]

Actually they are not long ways from being a monopoly. And the EU have already investigated Apple once and ruled against them. :)


It had nothing to do with Apple being a monopoly. It is an investigation into Apple having different prices on various EU iTunes stores and prohibiting EU citizens from being able to purchase from another EU store.

EDIT: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/216031bc-e131-11db-bd73-000b5df10621.html

[killmoms]

iTunes + iPod has been a self-contained ecosystem since the iPod was launched. Yes, there was some early support for a couple other early MP3 players, but that was nixed when Apple created the iPod. That ecosystem has been self-contained since (much like Microsoft's Zune ecosystem). Microsoft chose to make Windows Media Player's syncing library available to third parties, but not Zune's. Apple simply has not made a media player that they want to sync other devices with. That is their prerogative.

Blackberry and other device manufacturers have had perfectly good syncing with iTunes libraries via the XML file. There's nothing wrong with using that method, and it's what Palm should've done from day one. Instead, they decided to be clever and gank an Apple USB device ID to fool iTunes into treating the Pre like it was an iPod. Risky.

The up for Palm is they could potentially take Apple to court for preventing interoperability—assuming they have the money and the time to do so. Seems to me that Palm is in the weak position here. They hacked in functionality that was likely to break without asking permission, and they're in a market position that doesn't give them a lot of leeway (they bet the farm on the Pre, just look at their balance statements). Plus, they've got a ton of ex-Apple employees, so it seems to me that'd cast some questionable light on their reverse-engineering process in any court case.

Still, everyone knew this would be killed. Apple has used their market leader position to drive down the prices of their own hardware (iPods are competitive with other products across the board) and to win DRM-free music for consumers (although individual song prices took an upwards hit as a result, though that's more the record labels' cartel position than anything else). I'd say they're not behaving like a vicious, anti-consumer monopoly.

Palm had the opportunity to do this the "right" way from day one. They didn't.

It had nothing to do with Apple being a monopoly. It is an investigation into Apple having different prices on various EU iTunes stores and prohibiting EU citizens from being able to purchase from another EU store.
That case has everything to do with intellectual property licensing rights and record companies, and very little to do with Apple. Without one unified "European" set of record labels (each label has separate offices/licensing/copyright arrangements in each EU nation), Apple is unable to allow cross-country purchasing.

[Artofilm]

If I had a Palm Pre and I couldn't use iTunes to sync it, I'd complain and then write my own app to do it for me. It's a pretty simple solution.

Most people don't have program writing abilities... That's why they need software like iTunes...

[Eidorian]

How long until Apple forces you to update iTunes?

[nagromme]

+2 I own my music. Let me sync using iTunes. I don't want ANOTHER app to control my library. Think about the consumer!

You misunderstand.

You won't need another app to control your library. You can keep on using iTunes for that. You'll need a companion app from Palm to perform the sync operation--that's all.

That's why iTunes outputs "iTunes Music Library.xml" into your music folder: so that other apps can access it. Apple WANTS third parties to take advantage of their iTunes library mananger--but by the right method.

(The right method, as others have pointed out, is what RIM uses, and Palm should have--but instead they oddly decided to leave their customers in the lurch with a hack they knew was likely to break in future. Whatever the politics, PR, or just bad engineering reasons for allowing that, it certainly wasn't a decision that favors you as a Pre user. Now they'll have to do this the right way, and then Pre users will be back on track, using iTunes and their Pre together.)

The other (non-XML) iTunes Music Library file is the one iTunes itself uses. The XML file is a constantly-maintained copy of the data (such as playlists) for third parties to use. It exists entirely because Apple has chosen NOT to lock third parties out of your iTunes library.

Of course, if you want iTunes to offer other kinds of third-party support too, I don't blame you: http://apple.com/feedback (But don't hold your breath--iTunes and iPods are a system together, and a Pre is never likely to insert itself into that and work exactly like an iPod.)

[Goona]

Exactly.

Before Pre/iTunes compatibility was hacked in, nobody seriously complained that iTunes didn't support Pre. It's iTunes, it supports iPods, understood, end of story. Nobody seriously complains that Zune Desktop doesn't support iPods, Pres, or anything else other than a Zune. Fine, that makes sense.

Then the Pre gets some hack-job fake-out software added to trick iTunes into supporting the Pre. Suddenly, Pre users expect iTunes to support the Pre (well, 'cuz it does now, right?). Then if anything subsequently goes wrong between the two, it's at least partially Apple's fault for not supporting the Pre properly - even though Apple never intended the support and didn't agree to it. Somehow, Apple is criticized for subsequently making sure the support very clearly isn't there any more than Zune Desktop doesn't support Pre - so why is it that Apple is yelled at but Microsoft isn't? same thing.Its really funny ain't it.

[Shookster]

Wine emulates Windows without Microsoft’s approval. That’s not stealing, and not illegal.

Yes but Wine is developed by hobbyists and given away for free. If Wine had been developed by a company with the intent of making a profit from it, you can bet Microsoft would have come down on them like a ton of bricks.

[dragossh]

I agree with most people here... why in the world should Apple be forced to ensure their software works with a 3rd party device that is ignoring the rules and masquerading as an iPod when it clearly is not. Palm was really stupid to tout this as a big feature.

But Apple shouldn’t be a bad citizen and intentionally break Pre syncing. Unless under-the-hood changes require it, it’s just bad behaviour.

Yes but Wine is developed by hobbyists and given away for free. If Wine had been developed by a company with the intent of making a profit from it, you can bet Microsoft would have come down on them like a ton of bricks.

Actually, no. If a company developed Wine without using Microsoft code, Microsoft couldn’t do anything.

[parapup]

Yes but Wine is developed by hobbyists and given away for free. If Wine had been developed by a company with the intent of making a profit from it, you can bet Microsoft would have come down on them like a ton of bricks.

Haha - you could not (http://www.codeweavers.com) be more (http://www.cedega.com/) wrong.

[pdjudd]

Most people don't have program writing abilities... That's why they need software like iTunes...

If you don't have programming skills, you can hire people that do. I would like a bigger house and lack the skills needed (and the permission of my association) to do so. That doesn't mean I an tear down the wall to my neighbors house (shared wall) and not expect them to be miffed at me.

[Pika]

PALM PRE sucks

8 GB memory limit
No true apps - only webapps (so weak)
No voice and data at the same time (because of Sprint CDMA network)
No voice dialing (WTF)
No video recording (WTF?)
No voice memos (WTF)
No movie rentals (over the air or otherwise)
No visual Voicemail
No TV show rentals
No audiobook purchasing
No true app store (18 is a joke)
No console-quality games (like Resident Evil, Metal Gear, 1000's of others for iPhone)
No Peer to Peer games
No VoiceOver (the iPhone can read any screen to you, just like a Mac)
No native in-car integration (iPhone has this with dozens of cars)
No podcasts
Crippled copy/paste (for example - you can't cut or copy a webpage or any part of it)
No universal search (crippled - no e-mail search)
Tiny keyboard (iPhone landscape and portrait keyboards are bigger than Pre's real keyboard)
No auto wi-fi login (just jumps on any open network and remembers them all)
No 7.2 Mbps network speed
No Remote Wipe
No Find My Phone feature
Can't function as a Remote for the household stereo (Great for parties, especially with the iTunes DJ feature where people can request songs)
Weak battery life
More expensive than iPhone
Very scratchable screen
No oleophobic protective screen
No real music store (Apple can break the compatibility at any time and I don't want to take that chance)
No Voice Commands (control music playing by saying "Depeche Mode" for example)
No Compass
No multiple and customizable home screens like iPhone (Pre only has one screen)
No Parental Controls
No Video Editing
No onboard Ringtone Creation
No 5 person conference calls
No Webclips

[Redline13]

This is like Nintendo and their lockout chips, or Sega and their lockout chips on their cartridge video game systems, or HP and their ink-cartridge lockout chips, but with the added anti-trust issues that Apple is messing with if they actually succeed. Don't forget, Apple was already zinged by France over iTunes store.

This is the same crap you Apple fanboys would be flaming Microsoft over if they were the ones locking out competition.

I agree completely. Interoperability is good for consumers.

[pdjudd]

Haha - you could not (http://www.codeweavers.com) be more (http://www.cedega.com/) wrong.

For your first link, Crossover is a commercial software layer that uses WINE, it is not WINE if of itself. A minor but important distinction.

EDIT ... looks like thats the same for your second link. WINE is licensed under LGPL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Lesser_General_Public_License) which means that its derivative can be used to make commercial programs. That doesn't mean the original itself is commercial. WINE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_%28software%29)itself is free and sponsored by commercial companies.

[parapup]

For your first link, Crossover is a commercial software layer that uses WINE, it is not WINE if of itself. A minor but important distinction.

Oh, really - that is an important distinction in the current context?

[likegadgets]

Good for Apple if this is true. They have no obligation to support the software compatibility of a non-licensing competitor.

Would you apply the same to Microsoft?

[DougB541]

I agree completely. Interoperability is good for consumers.

I agree as well.

Not a big deal really. Drag and drop works great ifyou have an organized music collection.

Or use DoubleTwist which works EXACTLY LIKE iTUNES. In fact, it imports your music from iTunes.
http://www.precentral.net/sites/precentral.net/files/articleimages/Dieter%20Bohn/2009/06/thumb_450_doubletwist-3.png

Either way, most people who got the Pre probably didn't even know it could sync with iTunes.

Or hell, just not update their itunes. I personally don't use iTunes since i got rid of my iPod last year....but if it truly was a big deal to someone, they probably just own an iPod/iPhone already.

[pdjudd]

Would you apply the same to Microsoft?

In what way? Remember Microsoft is different than Apple - Microsoft is a convicted monopolist and Apple is not.

[nagromme]

But Apple shouldn’t be a bad citizen and intentionally break Pre syncing. Unless under-the-hood changes require it, it’s just bad behaviour.
....

It's true that Apple (almost certainly) did this intentionally--but sooner or later, under the hood changes probably WOULD require it, unless Apple were to spend time/money supporting Palm's products. So it may be kinder to Palm AND Palm's users to break it now rather than later.

In any case, maybe Apple was "bad" to Palm, but Palm was bad to their own customers first: they knew this would happen sooner or later. Everyone did. And they STILL chose to do this to their users instead of using Apple's approved method of 3rd-party iTunes support (the XML). All for the PR of saying a Pre is just like an iPod? I don't really get it. Maybe Apple made a bad call here, maybe a good one--but Palm's call was bad for certain. They're not exactly the "good citizen" of this situation.

[libertyforall]

Anybody realize the other treat to Apple from Palm isn't just using iTunes, but the device 2 year COST!:

http://www.precentral.net/sites/precentral.net/files/articleimages/Dieter%20Bohn/2009/06/wired-guide.png

for more, see:
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/06/wireds-smart-guide-for-know-your-smartphones/

[Arcus]

Now instead of being looked at in a positive light Apple has alienated the Palm Pre crowd. :mad:


All three of them....

[likegadgets]

In what way? Remember Microsoft is different than Apple - Microsoft is a convicted monopolist and Apple is not.

In some aspects of their business, it is debatable if Apple is not approaching or is a monopoly. Not yet tested, perhaps soon.

[DougB541]

All three of them....

That would be funny if the phone was selling poorly.


But now its just dumb.

[RITmusic2k]

I would like a bigger house and lack the skills needed (and the permission of my association) to do so. That doesn't mean I an tear down the wall to my neighbors house (shared wall) and not expect them to be miffed at me.

That's a pretty good analogy, actually.

I might revise it to say, you want to help yourself to the food in your neighbor's kitchen, but instead of making plans for dinner, maybe bringing a side dish of your own, and being welcomed through their front door... you cut a hole in the shared wall and raid the fridge.

[DougB541]

Anybody realize the other treat to Apple from Palm isn't just using iTunes, but the device 2 year COST!:

http://www.precentral.net/sites/precentral.net/files/articleimages/Dieter%20Bohn/2009/06/wired-guide.png

for more, see:
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/06/wireds-smart-guide-for-know-your-smartphones/

Its a Mac forum...the answer you will get is "you pay the price for quality." or something of that nature.

[FakeWozniak]

I'm not saying give them full access to everything, but let them sync the basics like songs & podcasts.


Apple already lets other devices sync, but the manufacturer of the device must write a compatible driver, which needs to be installed on PCs and Macs alike. Apple is basically biatch-slapping a device manufacturer who is NOT following the rules. Palm (w/washed up ex-Apple folks) has been taking a short cut and trying to skip the driver installation.

Pre just bought themselves time to write the driver. I am sure they will do the right thing soon. They just wanted the early "it's easy!" press and reduce the load on their developers until the initial deployment settled down a little.

[DougB541]

Apple already lets other devices sync, but the manufacturer of the device must write a compatible driver, which needs to be installed on PCs and Macs alike. Apple is basically biatch-slapping a device manufacturer who is NOT following the rules. Palm (w/washed up ex-Apple folks) has been taking a short cut and trying to skip the driver installation.

Pre just bought themselves time to write the driver. I am sure they will do the right thing soon. They just wanted the early "it's easy!" press and reduce the load on their developers until the initial deployment settled down a little.

:rolleyes: Yes, when people voluntarily leave a company they must be washed up.

In fact...I guess Steve Jobs was washed up in the 90s! haha

[libertyforall]

Are you kidding me?! AT&T "quality"?! I have had so many dropped calls on my 3GS in the last week, the phone is practically unusable, I have a tower ticket open with them that they are supposed to resolve by Thursday. We will see. I have not seen the AT&T "quality for the price", and their 3G is SLOW, like only 540k on average in the towers I use often...

Its a Mac forum...the answer you will get is "you pay the price for quality." or something of that nature.

[Lordillingworth]

This is an interesting one, you can't blame apple for doing it, and if i was in their position with somebody attempting to piggy back off a product i had invested time and money into, i would probably do the same, but at the same time it opens up debate about whether it could ultimately be useful to apple to have as many devices as possible syncing up to itunes... time will tell, palms reaction will be good to watch.

[qpid360]

I haven't updated yet. To those that have, does this fix the iPhone battery charging meter glitch? (iPhone's battery is charged, but the iTunes meter still shows charging)

[Dagless]

Very good work Apple.
Palm, just make your own synching app. If they can build a phone OS they can build a synch app.

[pika2000]

I don't understand people defending Palm over this.
1. Palm never really advertise iTunes syncing in the first place. It's just a "wink wink nod nod" sort of thing. They should know better that it will be broken by Apple sooner or later.
2. iTunes is not required to transfer music to the Pre in the first place. Simply drag-n-drop. If Palm wasn't so lazy, they could've made things much better by partnering with Songbird or something.

Customers should blame Palm for being lazy. There are other good jukebox software out there. Piggybacking iTunes is not necessary.

[Victor Odin]

Okay, I'll be the one to say it.

What's so great about iTunes?

I have OS X and don't use iTunes to sync with anything.

I just drag and drop music to my BlackBerry and get on with life.

Also, if Apple makes iTunes for Windows, then what is the problem for Palm using it to "sync" or whatever the hell you use it for?

Why don't they keep it part of the OS and be done with it?

Apple seems to be all over the map with this one.

[DougB541]

I don't understand people defending Palm over this.
1. Palm never really advertise iTunes syncing in the first place. It's just a "wink wink nod nod" sort of thing. They should know better that it will be broken by Apple sooner or later.
2. iTunes is not required to transfer music to the Pre in the first place. Simply drag-n-drop. If Palm wasn't so lazy, they could've made things much better by partnering with Songbird or something.

Customers should blame Palm for being lazy. There are other good jukebox software out there. Piggybacking iTunes is not necessary.

I don't think many are defending palm. I just think its not a big deal. More of a F you Apple...and Apple just sent an F you right back.

As I posted above, they should just hook up with DVDJon to make DoubleTwist the official Pre sync software.

Otherwise, like every other phone just rock drag and drop like normal.

[Eraserhead]

Pathetic move from Apple IMO. There is no real defence for this.

[BongoBanger]

In what way? Remember Microsoft is different than Apple - Microsoft is a convicted monopolist and Apple is not.
At present.

[pdjudd]

In some aspects of their business, it is debatable if Apple is not approaching or is a monopoly. Not yet tested, perhaps soon.

Well the thing is, you can;t call someone a monopoly until the courts declare it. Monopoly is a legal definition. You can call the actions of a company monopolistic, but thats a totally different thing. You can actolike a monopoly without being one in a legal sense.

That's a pretty good analogy, actually.

I might revise it to say, you want to help yourself to the food in your neighbor's kitchen, but instead of making plans for dinner, maybe bringing a side dish of your own, and being welcomed through their front door... you cut a hole in the shared wall and raid the fridge.

I was thinking of that, but the problem is those darn refrigerators are hard to cut into from behind without breaking the thing and cutting off my future snack. Breaking the wall sown is not astechically preasing, but the house can still function under its previous funtion.

That and the kitchens in our units do not face each other and are on opposite sides of course... :D

[MidiMonk]

oh Booooo! If this is true then Apple is going about things all wrong. They should encourage the Pre and any other phone or mp3 player to sync through iTunes. More sales for iTunes songs & movies plus more positive exposure for Apple.

I'm not saying give them full access to everything, but let them sync the basics like songs & podcasts.

Now instead of being looked at in a positive light Apple has alienated the Palm Pre crowd. :mad:

Apple likes to Alienate people, they are the kings of it.

[FlintAlt2]

To all of you complaining and whining and defending Apple, what if Apple said that only their keyboards and mice would work with Mac? What if they said that only the $900 Cinema Display would work with a Mac? Would you be defending them?

The only problem with that logic is that iTunes is tied in with iPod/iPhone all over the place. Marketing etc.

Apple made iTunes so they have every single right on this planet to decide what devices can connect to their software. Besides as many people have said Apple doesn't close the music library itself as 3rd party apps can access it. The problem here is that Pre is piggy backing iTunes without putting R&D into their own app. So you are openly condoning this? Your saying hacking programs is just fine?

Do you know what ends up happening when people keep complaining all the time that everything isn't open to everything.. Developers no longer make software as they just can't be asked that the consumers decide the rules on their software.

[Victor Odin]

Very good work Apple.
Palm, just make your own synching app. If they can build a phone OS they can build a synch app.

They do.

It's called "drag and drop", and it works incredibly well.

You can do it from any computer, anytime, anywhere, and AFAIK, you never have to ask permission.

Most of the music I have is from well before Apple dropped DRM.

Seriously, guys. What is the great thing about using iTunes to simply move a file from one place to another?

I guess some people care, I'm just not 100% sure why.

Winamp did a pretty bang up job of keeping thing categorized on PC's and there are probably two dozen tools that do more or less the same thing.

The hell with "iTunes". Much like Picasa vs. iPhoto, move on to something free and just as good. If not better.

iTunes does nothing revolutionary whatsoever. I'm a musician and have always been able to manage perfectly fine with a myriad of (mostly) free tools on whatever platform I was using.

Folks are making iTunes seem far more interesting than it really us.

[windywoo]

Okay, am I doing it wrong, then? Should I hold Option when I double-click the .exe file?

Or maybe it's a third party application that is allowing you to run them, meaning you're a hypocrite and my argument is sound.

Your argument is ridiculous on so many levels its difficult to believe you can be so ignorant.

The complexity of making an exe work on OSX is several magnitudes greater than making a device sync with iTunes. Secondly, you can run Windows on your Mac, or run Crossover if you want to run .exes. Thirdly, and this is the most painfully obvious, .exes do not run on OSX because of the vast differences in those two operating systems and the different directions Apple and Microsoft choose. They are not the result of a conscious effort to make .exes incompatible with OSX, unlike Apples efforts here.

Now stop trolling.

[peestandingup]

In what way? Remember Microsoft is different than Apple - Microsoft is a convicted monopolist and Apple is not.

Apple is more "Microsoft" than Microsoft ever thought about being.

Meaning at least MS is open to letting 3rd parties access their stuff. Apple is basically as closed & proprietary as you can get.

[stainlessliquid]

Okay, am I doing it wrong, then? Should I hold Option when I double-click the .exe file?

Or maybe it's a third party application that is allowing you to run them, meaning you're a hypocrite and my argument is sound.

Youre really getting desperate. A 3rd party application doesnt change anything. For your argument to hold any weight would require Microsoft to go out of their way and stop Wine applications from working with Windows applications, but they dont care.

[anjinha]

They do.

It's called "drag and drop", and it works incredibly well.

You can do it from any computer, anytime, anywhere, and AFAIK, you never have to ask permission.

Most of the music I have is from well before Apple dropped DRM.

Seriously, guys. What is the great thing about using iTunes to simply move a file from one place to another?

I guess some people care, I'm just not 100% sure why.

Winamp did a pretty bang up job of keeping thing categorized on PC's and there are probably two dozen tools that do more or less the same thing.

The hell with "iTunes". Much like Picasa vs. iPhoto, move on to something free and just as good. If not better.

iTunes does nothing revolutionary whatsoever. I'm a musician and have always been able to manage perfectly fine with a myriad of (mostly) free tools on whatever platform I was using.

Folks are making iTunes seem far more interesting than it really us.

^^ iTunes is free :confused:

[Sehnsucht]

Yes, but in this case Zune Desktop is clearly a Zune-only software. Your argument would hold if Apple wrote some code to enable Windows Media Player to work with iPhone and then Microsoft broke it.

How is iTunes clearly not "iPod-only software?" :confused:

[*LTD*]

Ok. So what? Big friggin loss.

As if Apple *needs* to allow Palm syncing. Why give people reason to buy the comeptition's products?? Why should Apple want anything to do with Palm or RIM or anyone else?

The entire Apple ecosystem is self-sustaining.

You want the iTunes experience? Fine. Then buy an iPhone or an iPod. It's Apple's baby, anyway.

No problem here.

[schalkse]

Apple likes to Alienate people, they are the kings of it.

Then you must be an alien.

[RidleyGriff]

I have to say, it is rather amazing how frivolously the term "monopoly" is bandied around over here with regard to Apple.

Problem is, it doesn't apply in this case. At all.

For this to be monopolistic, iTunes and Apple would somehow have to prevent people from using their own music files with the Pre if they choose to install iTunes. Not the case here; there are 3rd part syncing solutions galore and Apple has no issue.

Can users play their old FairPlay protected songs on a Pre? No, but I can't play WMV files on my iPod either, and the Pre faking an iPod ID didn't enable this ability in the first place. So there is zero loss of functionality from this change from the user's perspective; it's simply a matter of which tool can do which job.

All I see is a flood of users complaining about how evil Apple is for doing this, and how much iTunes sucks anyway. Well, if it sucks, then you shouldn't care, correct? So which is it?

[MasConejos]

Awesome. Go Apple. Suck on that Palm.
Good. Palm sucks.

<in good humor>

Microsoft Forums: "Apple Sucks!"
Apple Forums: "Palm Sucks!"
Palm Forums: "Hello? Is anyone there?"

</in good humor>

:p:)

[NightStorm]

How is iTunes clearly not "iPod-only software?" :confused:

Because they allow third-party applications and devices to access library data through a number of acceptable and allowed ways? :confused:

[Tallest Skil]

Secondly, you can run Windows on your Mac, or run Crossover if you want to run .exes.

Third party software.

Thirdly, and this is the most painfully obvious, .exes do not run on OSX because of the vast differences in those two operating systems and the different directions Apple and Microsoft choose. They are not the result of a conscious effort to make .exes incompatible with OSX, unlike Apples efforts here.

I couldn't care less the differences. The point has gone so far over your head that it hit the Clarke orbit.

Running .exe files requires third party software. Running all other devices that sync with iTunes requires third party software. Palm needs to use this software rather than advertising a now nonexistent exploit in iTunes.

THAT'S IT. THAT'S THE POINT. HOW YOU COULD HAVE MISSED THAT, I WILL NEVER KNOW.

Now stop trolling.

*ahem* "No, you."

[MidiMonk]

Then you must be an alien.

No, I am a consumer who doesn't just accept Apple's decisions without questioning them and they have been making quite a few lately.

[ydaf]

If Microsoft was doing what Apple was then I'm sure you'd hear a lot more complaints on this forum. It's Apple's software and they are entitled to do what they want with it but you can't deny that Apple likes to kill its competitors when they have the chance (they've done it over the years with some of their products). This bias that Apple can do no wrong is evident.

iTunes is the primary music/multimedia handler on the Mac. Heck it comes preinstalled on every new Mac so it already has an advantage over others (similar to what Microsoft does with IE and Windows Media player). At least WMP lets a variety of handheld devices sync with it.

I regard Apple just as 'evil' as some say Microsoft is but I still enjoy their products. However I'm not a delusional fanboy that can never see anything wrong in Apple's aggressive strategies.

At least let the Palm sync peoples' music! It's not like it can use the apps in the store! Sheesh....

[Xavier]

to bad, so sad Pre.

[pdjudd]

Apple is more "Microsoft" than Microsoft ever thought about being.

Meaning at least MS is open to letting 3rd parties access their stuff. Apple is basically as closed & proprietary as you can get.

Third parties can access iTunes libraries - iTunes even generates an XML to to that. Apple has tons of their SDK wide open to allow people to develop many different programs without restriction on their desktop. RIM's mac program does this quite nicely so I understand.

Of course the iPhone is a walled garden that requires Apples permission to use, but outside of that, Apple ectively encourages its programmers to exploit core areas of their system to create great programs.

But like any company, there are areas that should be understood to be a no-no. But MS has many areas that are restricted. Thats par for the course.

Provide specific examples where Apple has said that third parties cannot develop support for their own devices.

[Hattig]

the best part about the upgrade notes is
"iTunes 8.2.1 provides a number of important bug fixes and addresses an issue with verification of Apple devices."

I think it is great that apple is blocking other devices from using itunes. The only reason these devices can even truly try to use itunes is because apple has removed DRM. If you want to use itunes then get an iPhone!!!!

The stupidity and short-sightedness in this thread is sad.

Apple is using their might in one market - media management, to influence and knock down competitors in another market.

This is just what Microsoft have done in the past, and got a slap on the wrist for.

It really isn't in Apple's interests to go through a monopoly trial, and Europe has already shown it is willing to fine companies vast amounts for acting in ways that actively harm consumers.

Apple should have the balls to let competitors in the mobile arena utilise its systems in the software arena, instead of acting like the petulant bully boy it is with this contemptuous and deliberate blocking of the Pre.

[pdjudd]

At least WMP lets a variety of handheld devices sync with it.
Has Apple ever said that people cannot use the iTunes Library XML file?

[Master Chief]

Apple makes very little off the iTunes music/video store. Their money comes from hardware.
May I ask where you got this idea from? Do you have a credible source, because I simply don't believe it.

[Voltaic]

I am interested to see how Palm reacts....

Im more curious to see how the Justice Department reacts to Apple's continued anti-competitive practices...

[eastcoastsurfer]

How is iTunes clearly not "iPod-only software?" :confused:

Because Apple said (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2172?viewlocale=en_US) it wasn't?

[Hunts121]

Good!! I dislike thieves.

how are they thieves? they still have to buy the music from the itunes store to get it on there or use their own.

[Edmar]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_0 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7A341 Safari/528.16)

Palm should develop their own media management software, they should call pr-unes.

[nagromme]

Apple is more "Microsoft" than Microsoft ever thought about being.

Meaning at least MS is open to letting 3rd parties access their stuff. Apple is basically as closed & proprietary as you can get.

Or to clarify further:

MS makes almost all of their money by selling to 3rd party corporations. Apple makes almost all of their money by selling to consumers.

As a result, MS is open to supporting their many corporate partners and allies. And will bury them, legally or otherwise, at the drop of a hat. (I bet third parties LOVE that kind of "open.")

Meanwhile, Apple is in an entirely different business. Concerned with what USERS want, not with what third parties want. (Yep, that means a lot is closed to them.)

And no, that doesn't mean every user always gets what he wants from Apple. Does every Microsoft user get what they want? The end result is Apple being a lot more consumer-friendly than Microsoft, despite those (Ballmer on down) who try to make things somehow look like the reverse is true.

And both, in the end, are on the side of shareholders' money.

[pdjudd]

Because Apple said (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2172?viewlocale=en_US) it wasn't?
Of course I should point out that these guys don't spoof their product ID to match the iPod and Apple has not supported players in ears (its for legacy support)

[Tallest Skil]

how are they thieves? they still have to buy the music from the itunes store to get it on there or use their own.

*facepalm* This has nothing to do with music. How could you think that?

This has to do with Palm being too lazy to write their own software for the Pre and use an iTunes exploit instead.

[pdjudd]

Im more curious to see how the Justice Department reacts to Apple's continued anti-competitive practices...

Well, once a case is opened by the Justice department, we will know. So far that hasn't happened and the last time anybody tried to call Apple a Monopoly (see Psystar - that was their first suit) the case got dismissed.

EDIT: I don't have much faith after the Microsoft case.

[peestandingup]

You all need to brush up on your Apple history.

iTunes came out before the iPod, almost a year earlier actually. iTunes could indeed sync with multiple players out there.

MACWORLD EXPO, SAN FRANCISCO—January 9, 2001

Apple Introduces iTunes — World’s Best and Easiest To Use Jukebox Software

*download songs to popular MP3 players from Rio and Creative Labs with plug-and-play simplicity with no extra software or complicated driver installations required.

So, no. Apple didnt "build iTunes for the iPod", you guys are dead wrong about that. They just turned into uptight a-holes after the iPod really started selling in 2003 & started slowly blocking other 3rd party players until it became what it is today.

[DougB541]

*facepalm* This has nothing to do with music. How could you think that?

This has to do with Palm being too lazy to write their own software for the Pre and use an iTunes exploit instead.

What has it to do with being lazy??

The Pre does drag and drop...but there are a large amount of people who won't use anything other than iTunes ever again....you and I both know that.


This way tossing them a bone....they can continue doing the sync for all older versions of iTunes. Either that, or download Doubletwist which imports your music from iTunes and allows you to sync to multiple devices.

Palm making their own stand-alone sync is pointless.

[Hattig]

Has Apple ever said that people cannot use the iTunes Library XML file?

Does that hold calendar, email, notes, and contact information?

Does iSync sync music (or any of the above in a reasonable manner - I've never got iSync to work, it usually just hangs)?

Syncing services are now an expected part of an operating system, shame that Apple doesn't want to set some defacto standards itself by making something usable by third parties.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

I, for one, couldn't care less that I can't use .exe files on my computer.

/facepalm

irrelevant. Locking put the Pre really doesn't affect much of anyone. Everyone expected it.

[NT1440]

I dont get why palm would have even touted the capability in the first place seeing as it was obvious that Apple would close this flaw. Relying on a hack as part of a touted feature? Come on Palm, really?

[mygoldens]

How could you Apple break the only thing the Palm Pre (sorry excuse for a phone) had going for it!:confused:

[Sehnsucht]

Because Apple said (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2172?viewlocale=en_US) it wasn't?

Until they obviously changed their minds. ;)

All those MP3 players are OLD and NO LONGER SOLD.

Apple used to license Mac clones, 'member? And now they don't.

[Goona]

That would be funny if the phone was selling poorly.


But now its just dumb.

Can you give us official sales for the Pre?

[GimmeSlack12]

Anyone figure Palm was only using iTunes to buy some time on the development of their own software? Palm practically invited this iTunes update.

[DStaal]

I don't get people bashing the Pre as a horrible phone that no one's using: Newsflash for you guys: It's selling out as fast as stores can get it, and the reviews all rave. It may not be as good as the iPhone... maybe. (And as for apps: How many apps were there for the iPhone when it came out? Zero, if I remember correctly...)

Anyway, that's irrelevant. As is the argument that Apple shouldn't have to work to support third parties: They didn't. They did work to break a third party. Which is just mean and petty.

Oh well. MissingSync's music sycing is better than iTune's anyway.

[DougB541]

Can you give us official sales for the Pre?

Not until they release their official numbers....but find one analyst or report that the Pre is selling poorly.

I'd be rather impressed.

Estimates are they are moving 30-50k a week since launch. (while supply constrained)

[nagromme]

You all need to brush up on your Apple history.

iTunes came out before the iPod, almost a year earlier actually. iTunes could indeed sync with multiple players out there.



So, no. Apple didnt "build iTunes for the iPod", you guys are dead wrong about that. They just turned into uptight a-holes after the iPod really started selling in 2003 & started slowly blocking other 3rd party players until it became what it is today.

A history correction:

They didn't "slowly block" other players, they simply didn't spend time/money adding NEW players to the list of those that were originally supported by SoundJam, the app that Apple bought and then evolved under the iTunes name. Players that act like those really old players will STILL sync with iTunes (I have a friend who does this). They were never blocked, and Palm could probably have gone that route--if they didn't mind their Pre showing up as some very old and limited device.

But Apple offers a more modern way for third parties to sync: the XML. That does require the third party to write software, it's true, but iTunes will talk to that software.

[DELLsFan]

... signaling the latest salvo in the ongoing dispute between Apple and Palm, which has hired a number of former Apple employees in recent years as it attempts to outdo the iPhone...

Is it really? Or is Palm simply reinventing itself while still offering an alternative to the iPhone? Why must every smart phone HAVE to be trying to Outdo the Precious?

Competition is great. One of the most enticing features of the Pre for me is the physical keyboard. I know that isn't the case with everyone, but for some - it is.

[Goona]

Apple is more "Microsoft" than Microsoft ever thought about being.

Meaning at least MS is open to letting 3rd parties access their stuff. Apple is basically as closed & proprietary as you can get.

Does Microsoft allow the Pre to sync with the Zune Desktop?

[cmwade77]

I think the PRE has one major advantage over the iPhone: Multitasking

Really, both sides have problems on this one, but they should be able to be resolved:
Apple: Really, this is petty, you should allow third party devices to sync with your software.

Palm: Come on, making your phone pretend to be an iPod/iPhone, so that iTunes will sync with it? Really that is low, you guys can do better, you had the best PDAs on the market.

[Artofilm]

Geez... Must everything on this site be argued and fought about?!
This is an Apple forum, of course people here will defend and side with Apple.

[pdjudd]

Does that hold calendar, email, notes, and contact information?
No. But iTunes doesn't have that information to begin with - it get those things from other programs. but iTunes has it's own sync engine (ever since 4.8

Does iSync sync music (or any of the above in a reasonable manner - I've never got iSync to work, it usually just hangs)?
Well I have gotten it to work with older devices, but ever since Tiger, most sync related things have been delegated to SyncServices (http://developer.apple.com/macosx/syncservices.html) instead of iSync. Unformtunatly i cannot comment on this becasue not many modern devices support the Mac - they all came before my exposure to Apple software. All the sync devices I remember all used proprietary Windows solutions

Syncing services are now an expected part of an operating system, shame that Apple doesn't want to set some defacto standards itself by making something usable by third parties.
Sync is a very difficult thing prom a programming point of view - thats why there are a ton of different applications for it - none of the generic ones ever work right. Apple could develop whatever standard it wants to (It sounds like Sync Services was supposed to do that), but it cuts both ways - devices do not store or retrieve information in the same way. Support always falls behind which is why the systems end up proprietary - nobody wants to work together.

[GimmeSlack12]

Anyway, that's irrelevant. As is the argument that Apple shouldn't have to work to support third parties: They didn't. They did work to break a third party. Which is just mean and petty.

As someone else mentioned. It is fairly unethical to piggy-back on someone elses hard work. I wouldn't say this is a petty issue, rather protecting your product.

[Beric]

So I don't get this, guys. Let's say I make a small chair to sell. I say that only children may use it. I have now effectively and legally limited my product, because adults can't fit in it. However, if I make a larger chair, and say only adults may use it, but children happen to be able to use it, that's wrong. Likewise, it's perfectly acceptable for someone to sell a booster seat that makes it easier for children to use the chair.

Via this analogy, I would suggest that Apple may legally do whatever it wants with iTunes to make the Pre not functionally work. Likewise, Palm may modify its Pre (but not iTunes) to do whatever it wants to make iTunes work.

[pdjudd]

Does Microsoft allow the Pre to sync with iTunes?

Thats not up to Microsoft. All they need to do is support the USB architecture. Palm was transmitting a invalid SID to iTunes. Windows has no way of determine the difference if the SID's are incorrectly reported.

[dragossh]

The stupidity and short-sightedness in this thread is sad.

Apple is using their might in one market - media management, to influence and knock down competitors in another market.

This is just what Microsoft have done in the past, and got a slap on the wrist for.

But Apple makes shiny devices and it doesn’t suck like Microsoft! Just wait for BRLawyer to show up here and tell you that :D

Of course I should point out that these guys don't spoof their product ID to match the iPod and Apple has not supported players in ears (its for legacy support)

Does iTunes still support these players? Then it’s not iPod-only.

They just turned into uptight a-holes after the iPod really started selling in 2003 & started slowly blocking other 3rd party players until it became what it is today.

Oh, man, I remember a time when Apple was this cute and nice underdog that produced the best technology they could. I believe they were called “Apple Computer”. Now they are so money-hungry, acting like crap (see also the problem they created by not supporting Ogg Theora in Safari) and trying to stifle competition in any way they can.

I don't get people bashing the Pre as a horrible phone that no one's using

It doesn’t have an Apple logo on the back. It sucks :D
Speaking of that, who wants to bet that if Apple came out with the Pre it would have been praised around here?

Does Microsoft allow the Pre to sync with iTunes?

Err, what? You’re joking, right? Anyway, they would be more than happy to allow it to sync with Windows Media Player.

[schalkse]

No, I am a consumer who doesn't just accept Apple's decisions without questioning them and they have been making quite a few lately.

Nobody forces you to use iTunes besides to sync iphone and ipod.
You always have a freedom of choice to use or not to use.

[Goona]

Not until they release their official numbers....but find one analyst or report that the Pre is selling poorly.

I'd be rather impressed.

Estimates are they are moving 30-50k a week since launch. (while supply constrained)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/06/AR2009070602911.html

[jdechko]

I posted this over at Engadget, but I think that Apple's issue wasn't necessarily that the Pre did sync with iTunes, but how it accomplished this: the Pre presented itself as an iPod to iTunes. I've read some reports saying that other 3rd party players are fine, which would mean that they just closed this specific avenue to Palm and the Pre. If this is true, then Palm could use the unofficial and (still) unsupported methods and I think it would be cool.

If Palm keeps hacking around, I think Apple would pursue some sort of legal action against Palm. After all, Jon Rubinstein (Palm's CEO) is an ex-Apple employee, who developed the iPod, among other things. Some of Palm's methods can, undoubtedly, be coming from his knowledge of his prior position.