Obesity: Deadly sin or the new style?

[spaceboots06]

Just curious as to where everyone stands on obesity. I don't know about countries besides the US but walking down a New York City street is becoming harder to do. I never really paid attention to it but I would say 65% of people in NYC are either overweight or obese. I'm neither of the two but have had phases in my life where I was mildly overweight.

I don't think obesity doesn't make you a bad person, but, I don't approve of it. I'm a little more understanding in terms of obesity running in a family, but it's not entirely a genetic problem. Obesity can be beat.

What do you guys think?

[Iscariot]

http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyimages/1108.gif

[.Andy]

I don't know about countries besides the US but walking down a New York City street is becoming harder to do.
You might have arthritis.

[abijnk]

Hmmmm... Interesting topic. Your thread title is a little inflammatory, but I'll bite anyways.

I am obese. I stand at 5'5" and currently weigh right at 250 lbs (see pic attached). EDIT: For those who don't know, this puts my BMI in the rage of "morbid obesity."

My perspective on this comes from being overweight and having dealt with it all of my (short) adult life. When I was 14/15 I became severely depressed and dropped down to 140 lbs.; I was very underweight for my frame (you could see my ribs, it was gross). Around my 16th birthday I started to get past the things that were going on in my life and got back up to a more healthy weight for me. The problem was, it didn't stop. I have slowly climbed up the scale to the weight I am right now, where I seem to have topped out (been the same weight for about a year now).

There are several contributing factors to my weight. Its easy for people to just say "well, you eat too much and move too little" but if it were that easy I would have solved it a long time ago. I have hormone imbalances (specifically very high amounts of estrogen) and a family history that is very much stacked against me (ALL of the women up through my grandmothers and their sisters are/were overweight).

The thing about obesity that I have stuggled with most is that it is much more complex than many people like to think. It is easy to look at an overweight person and form narrow ideas about how they got there, and it is even easier to tease or mock them for not fitting into our standards of beauty. What a lot of people don't take the time to think about is the psychological side of obesity.

I think more emphasis needs to be placed on the psychological side of obesity. Too often people are written off as lazy without addressing the underlying cause. If I could adequately describe the mental struggle that comes with being obese and trying to lose weight I would, but I'm not sure that I ever could.

Its easy to tell someone to eat less and exercise more, but if that person can't find a support system to make that work mentally as well as physically it's going to be a losing battle every time.

[spaceboots06]

.

I like his lunchbox but it would make sense for it to be bigger.

[ZiggyPastorius]

Hmmmm... Interesting topic. Your thread title is a little inflammatory, but I'll bite anyways.

I am obese. I stand at 5'5" and currently weigh right at 250 lbs (see pic attached).

My perspective on this comes from being overweight and having dealt with it all of my (short) adult life. When I was 14/15 I became severely depressed and dropped down to 140 lbs.; I was very underweight for my frame (you could see my ribs, it was gross). Around my 16th birthday I started to get past the things that were going on in my life and got back up to a more healthy weight for me. The problem was, it didn't stop. I have slowly climbed up the scale to the weight I am right now, where I seem to have topped out (been the same weight for about a year now).

There are several contributing factors to my weight. Its easy for people to just say "well, you eat too much and move too little" but if it were that easy I would have solved it a long time ago. I have hormone imbalances (specifically very high amounts of estrogen) and a family history that is very much stacked against me (ALL of the women up through my grandmothers and their sisters are/were overweight).

The thing about obesity that I have stuggled with most is that it is much more complex than many people like to think. It is easy to look at an overweight person and form narrow ideas about how they got there, and it is even easier to tease or mock them for not fitting into our standards of beauty. What a lot of people don't take the time to think about is the psychological side of obesity.

I think more emphasis needs to be placed on the psychological side of obesity. Too often people are written off as lazy without addressing the underlying cause. If I could adequately describe the mental struggle that comes with being obese and trying to lose weight I would, but I'm not sure that I ever could.

Its easy to tell someone to eat less and exercise more, but if that person can't find a support system to make that work mentally as well as physically it's going to be a losing battle every time.

This is a very good post. I don't think you can point to one or two things and say "This is the deal with obesity." It would be nice if we could, because then perhaps there'd be a chance of beating it on a large scale, but like you said, there tends to be very little opening for a hopeful situation in most people's surroundings. What we need (also like you said) is people who are less shallow, and more willing to accept people who are overweight (unfortunately, some people have a hard time with that, for whatever reason), and to help them, emotionally, if they are trying to beat it. Fat or skinny, though, there's no exclusivity club for happiness. :)

[Shivetya]

Just say no to fatties.

Honestly where is the excuse? I guess if you wanted to point to the real villains when it comes to over consumption they are the easiest target. I don't mind people being overweight, I do mind 250lb 5'1" people and 300lb 6' people who aren't built like a line backer.

We have a dearth of people morbidly obese where I work, both men and women. How do they look at themselves in the mirror, hell, how to they wipe their ass.

[abijnk]

How do they look at themselves in the mirror, hell, how to they wipe their ass.

Have you considered that maybe they can't look themselves in the mirror? Have you considered the mental anguish they might be in?

[Shivetya]

Have you considered that maybe they can't look themselves in the mirror? Have you considered the mental anguish they might be in?

Well I figure its mostly from not having a big enough mirror. :p

[abijnk]

Well I figure its mostly from not having a big enough mirror. :p

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were in here for actual mature discussion. My apologies. Carry on.

[Unspoken Demise]

Have you considered that maybe they can't look themselves in the mirror? Have you considered the mental anguish they might be in?

Of course they haven't. It's easy to laugh until you're in the same shoes. Thank you for sharing yourself in your earlier post.

[Shivetya]

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were in here for actual mature discussion. My apologies. Carry on.

What? Watch people defend the fact they are over weight?

Count calories. Stay away from anything in a box or shiny bag. Eat vegetables and whole grain foods. Limit salt intake, drink lots of water, avoid foods high in carbohydrates (like corn and potatoes).

1200 to 1500 calories a day and you will lose weight. My doctor proved it to me. Portion control was meaningless unless I knew the calories involved. I eat lots of long grain rice, vegetables (green ones preferably), and my treat is real butter on them. For meat I might eat beef once a week, usually less than that. Chicken and lean pork are great. Sugar free is it. If you want a nice bracing drink on a cold day then home brewed ice tea is a clear winner!

My father was very overweight at one time, guess what, he swapped out a lot of sugar and starch laden items and the weight went away. Sugar free banana Popsicles were a god-send. Throw in the fear of having full blown diabetes like my mom; from a medical screw up; and he had the incentive he needed, that and the fact the excess weight caused back and knee problems.

[abijnk]

What? Watch people defend the fact they are over weight?

Count calories. Stay away from anything in a box or shiny bag. Eat vegetables and whole grain foods. Limit salt intake, drink lots of water, avoid foods high in carbohydrates (like corn and potatoes).

1200 to 1500 calories a day and you will lose weight. My doctor proved it to me. Portion control was meaningless unless I knew the calories involved. I eat lots of long grain rice, vegetables (green ones preferably), and my treat is real butter on them. For meat I might eat beef once a week, usually less than that. Chicken and lean pork are great. Sugar free is it. If you want a nice bracing drink on a cold day then home brewed ice tea is a clear winner!

My father was very overweight at one time, guess what, he swapped out a lot of sugar and starch laden items and the weight went away. Sugar free banana Popsicles were a god-send. Throw in the fear of having full blown diabetes like my mom; from a medical screw up; and he had the incentive he needed, that and the fact the excess weight caused back and knee problems.

I'm very glad to hear that you and your father had that kind of shear will power to deal with any weight issues. However, you need to recognize that it isn't black and white. While the solution might sound simple, and in fact might be simple for some, it isn't that way for everybody.

No one is defending being fat, because there is nothing to defend.

[chrmjenkins]

It astonishes me how some people can view people who are obese as an all-together different class of citizens. I think a big component of it is that people feel financially encumbered by overweight people in that they believe that they are responsible for many of the strains on medical system, causing dollars to come from the normal, healthy-weight people's pockets.

To say that it's a product of lack of motivation on an individual's part is remarkably short-sighted. There are numerous factors about today's way of life that contribute to these. One is the minimal amount of activity our daily lives require of us. With so many desk jobs and technological advancements, it takes more effort than it normally would to get our necessary levels of exercise. Another factor is the self-exacerbating cycle of obesity and poverty. Those who are poor are often forced to purchase lower quality foods that have been processed and are filled with saturated fats and sodium. They automatically have been dealt a bad hand due to their socioeconomic status. Subsequently, they are also the least likely to be able to afford their own medical care, meaning they are forced to seek public funds. This can become a trap, giving the individual even less hope of bettering their financial situation, and consequently, being able to eat healthier.

Another issue stemming from how we've processed foods is that we've found out how to make a lot of foods that taste good that aren't good for you. Often times, these are also very easy to obtain both because of readiness and cost. Because of this, foods are also often comforts that are easily obtained. If someone is obese, there is a fair chance that food offers a comfort for their worries. From childhood on, we ridicule those who are overweight, only to make them turn to food to diffuse the stress being placed upon them by not fitting in.

For many, it's no longer an issue of having enough to eat, rather, their job is to make sure they don't overeat. All these above factors show that the tables have been turned from what any normal animal would experience in its native habitat. Indeed, we can also see pets who become overweight simply because the minimum of what their lives now require to survive causes them to be overweight. The fact that obesity is a struggle for so many people should surprise no one, nor should it be a source of ridicule. Sure, there are some who endlessly and shamelessly gorge, not caring about their health, but would you judge a significant portion of a our population on the deeds of only a part of that group?

[Abstract]

My stepdad is around 6'2", 260 lbs, and is overweight. He also eats rather little (probably 50% of what I eat), is constantly on a diet, and walks every day for exercise. Gardening for hours will also drain a lot of energy on weekends. However, he's still overweight, and when I was younger, I could never figure out why. Surely it must be a matter of his calories eaten minus the calories he burned, right? Well if that was true, he probably has a basal metabolic rate of 100 calories per day, but that would probably not be enough to keep his vital organs alive, considering how mine is probably 1700 to 1800 per day. :o

So I do feel that people oversimplify the situation a bit. It's not always overeating, not enough exercise, or even a hormone imbalance (which is more rare).

I think people make quick conclusions when they see a fat person because people weren't as heavy in the past, and so people don't believe it has anything to do with hormones or genetics. If it was, then there would have been a similar number of obese and morbidly obese people 50 years ago. So yes, it's easier for most people to blame fat people for being fat.


I think more emphasis needs to be placed on the psychological side of obesity. Too often people are written off as lazy without addressing the underlying cause. If I could adequately describe the mental struggle that comes with being obese and trying to lose weight I would, but I'm not sure that I ever could.

Personally, I would have believed that not dying at a young age, and a mirror, would both be good forms of motivation.

[Rodimus Prime]

Have you considered that maybe they can't look themselves in the mirror? Have you considered the mental anguish they might be in?

while that might be true many people that over weight excuse *blank* I feel for a vast majority of the people in the over weight category is it is their own fault. You are an expectation to the majority.

I watch people who claim that is all hormonal and genetics for their weight problem only eat very fatty fried food. The food they eat makes me sick is so greesy and that is their every day food. They are both well over 300 lb and they say hormonal and genetics is the reason for their weight problem. Sorry that excuse for people like that goes out the window when they eat that unhealthy.

For me if some one is over weight and eats healthy then I can understand it. Eating healthy means just means that for the most part the meals are healthy. The every now and then fatty unhealthy meal is allowed.

The worse excuse I hear is healthy food taste bad. That is full of it. I know a lot of healthy food that taste pretty good. I know it takes very little effort to eat healthy. I eat fairly healthy and i really do not put any extra effort to do it.

[.Andy]

I watch people who claim that is all hormonal and genetics for their weight problem only eat very fatty fried food.
Not to claim that it's the status quo but endocrine conditions like corticosteroid excess (which is relatively common) that can cause one to constantly be hungry and therefore crave calorie rich foods.

[abijnk]

while that might be true many people that over weight excuse *blank* I feel for a vast majority of the people in the over weight category is it is their own fault. You are an expectation to the majority.

I watch people who claim that is all hormonal and genetics for their weight problem only eat very fatty fried food. The food they eat makes me sick is so greesy and that is their every day food. They are both well over 300 lb and they say hormonal and genetics is the reason for their weight problem. Sorry that excuse for people like that goes out the window when they eat that unhealthy.

For me if some one is over weight and eats healthy then I can understand it. Eating healthy means just means that for the most part the meals are healthy. The every now and then fatty unhealthy meal is allowed.

The worse excuse I hear is healthy food taste bad. That is full of it. I know a lot of healthy food that taste pretty good. I know it takes very little effort to eat healthy. I eat fairly healthy and i really do not put any extra effort to do it.

I don't pass off my genetics or anything else as an excuse, it is simply a contributing factor. I think trying to make excuses is what is such a big turnoff for a lot of people. In very few cases is obesity going to be purely biological and unrelated to a persons diet or exercise habit. However, I also think that to point to one thing and say that is the reason someone is overweight is pretty narrow. While there are going to be some people on that end of the extreme, too, I'd say for a majority of people there are several contributing factors.

My biggest thing is treatment. If the only thing being pushed is to eat less and exercise more nothing is going to be accomplished. In the end, there will always be a why. Why is person A completely sedentary? Why does person B go on binges? There is always a why. I would go so far as to say that the recommendation of diet is more of a "treating the symptoms" scenario than we like to believe. Sure, eating less (or eating healthier) and exercising more will more often than not solve the outward appearance of obesity, but it doesn't address the psychological reasons behind the weight gain to begin with.

As Chris pointed out (isn't he cute, BTW?), there is emotional eating (eating for comfort) access issues (I think we can all agree it is more expensive to eat healthier), and a number of other things that contribute to obesity as well. Those need to be addressed in addition to achieving actual weight loss.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

I understand a lot of the empathy in this thread, however, people are ***** footing around the actual problem. Today there are significantly higher amounts of obese people than there were yesteryear. This is brought on by a DISGUSTING diet and an increasingly sedentary lifestyle. Sure, we can talk about how empathetic we are toward people with a chemical imbalance or hormone disorder, and believe me I do feel for those people, but the real issue here is lifestyle choices.

For the most part I do think obesity is caused by the person rarely is it actually the result of a genetic disorder or whatever. Doctors often give people all sorts of excuses that they're fat, maybe it's family history, or something in the water, but really people are fatter today than they have ever been. If people just live healthier they wouldn't be obese, and most likely they wouldn't have all the diseases that go along with obesity. (Chicken, egg. What came first the disease that makes you sedentary and obese, or obesity that can lead to the disease?) Severely overweight people are NOT the result of poor genes, this is only the result of diet and exercise.

Really it doesn't take much will power to start eating broccoli instead of french fries, it doesn't take much will power to stand instead of sit.

[abijnk]

I understand a lot of the empathy in this thread, however, people are ***** footing around the actual problem. Today there are significantly higher amounts of obese people than there were yesteryear. This is brought on by a DISGUSTING diet and an increasingly sedentary lifestyle. Sure, we can talk about how empathetic we are toward people with a chemical imbalance or hormone disorder, and believe me I do feel for those people, but the real issue here is lifestyle choices.

For the most part I do think obesity is caused by the person rarely is it actually the result of a genetic disorder or whatever. Doctors often give people all sorts of excuses that they're fat, maybe it's family history, or something in the water, but really people are fatter today than they have ever been. If people just live healthier they wouldn't be obese, and most likely they wouldn't have all the diseases that go along with obesity. (Chicken, egg. What came first the disease that makes you sedentary and obese, or obesity that can lead to the disease?) Severely overweight people are NOT the result of poor genes, this is only the result of diet and exercise.

Really it doesn't take much will power to start eating broccoli instead of french fries, it doesn't take much will power to stand instead of sit.

Again, saying "well, eat healthier" doesn't address WHY the person wasn't eating healthy in the first place.

[Badandy]

Again, saying "well, eat healthier" doesn't address WHY the person wasn't eating healthy in the first place.

But healthy food (if you find the right kind) tastes good. It's not like eating healthier is that much of a penalty. I'll take a nice, lean chicken breast over a snickers any day. It's delicious. So, if you take it that healthy food and bad food taste about the same, why would someone do something intentionally bad to themselves?

Most everyone gets depressed at some point. Everyone has to deal with internal issues. It's how people handle them that differs. Someone else might eat ice-cream, I choose to run until I can't feel my legs anymore. We're both trying to escape whatever is causing us to feel depressed or bad, but there's still a choice in how you can address it. So I guess what I'm saying is that it is lazy to not change your lifestyle even if there is an underlying issue. It's lazy to choose to watch TV instead of run if both allow you to escape whatever you're feeling. I have no ill-will towards obese people, but frankly, I'm tired of the victim mentality.

[chrmjenkins]

But healthy food (if you find the right kind) tastes good. It's not like eating healthier is that much of a penalty. I'll take a nice, lean chicken breast over a snickers any day. It's delicious. So, if you take it that healthy food and bad food taste about the same, why would someone do something intentionally bad to themselves?

Most everyone gets depressed at some point. Everyone has to deal with internal issues. It's how people handle them that differs. Someone else might eat ice-cream, I choose to run until I can't feel my legs anymore. We're both trying to escape whatever is causing us to feel depressed or bad, but there's still a choice in how you can address it.

That healthy, lean chicken is going to cost several dollars to purchase, then it has to be prepared. That snickers will cost less than a dollar and only requires the wrapper being opened.

[Badandy]

That healthy, lean chicken is going to cost several dollars to purchase, then it has to be prepared. That snickers will cost less than a dollar and only requires the wrapper being opened.

Most of the obese people I see spend more money on soda in one year than it would cost to buy chicken breasts for one year. I don't doubt that some people eat unhealthily because of finances, but a lot of poor people somehow manage to afford a $6 box of cigarettes per day...


BTW: The title of this thread is unnecessarily hostile and is preventing some good dialogue from taking place.

[spaceboots06]

As Chris pointed out (isn't he cute, BTW?), there is emotional eating (eating for comfort) access issues (I think we can all agree it is more expensive to eat healthier), and a number of other things that contribute to obesity as well. Those need to be addressed in addition to achieving actual weight loss.

He is; I wish I was homosexual because then I could appreciate him more. I'm not being sarcastic either. Anyway, I don't know whether to agree with you or not about emotional eating. I can't say my life has been the hardest but I have to visit a therapist weekly because I always have thoughts of suicide and am depressed. This "phase" has been going on for years. Two years ago I dealt with it by overeating, a lot. Last year I dealt with it by not eating. I would go for four days without eating a single meal. I guess the emotional eating thing can go both ways.

On another note, perhaps some people can only eat unhealthy food because it's nearly infinitely cheaper than healthier meals. If I was on a shoestring budget I would be eating McDonald's everyday, not shopping at Whole Foods.

[yg17]

Not everyone is obese because they stuff their face with food. Some people are obese due to other factors such as thyroid issues or hormonal imbalances, and thanks to our wonderful healthcare system, many of them can't get the treatment they need because they're uninsured and can't get insurance because obesity is a pre existing condition. I'm a pretty large guy and it's not because I eat unhealthy and am lazy, I eat well and exercise, but the pounds don't stay off of me as easily as they may stay off of you. It's horrible. I've been called fat when I was a kid in school, I've had my own family members insult me. I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for people who are fat because they eat like pigs, but until you know everyone's individual situation, just shut the hell up.

[spaceboots06]

On another note going outside and jogging or even walking is a good anti-depressant. Sure it doesn't beat popping a few pills but enjoying fresh air is something I myself miss because I confine myself to my apartment building a lot. I do hit the treadmill and assortment of weight machines though...

Uhm, It's okay to be a little larger when you're taller. It just makes sense.

[OutThere]

Again, saying "well, eat healthier" doesn't address WHY the person wasn't eating healthy in the first place.

There is no culture of food and meals in the United States as there is elsewhere in the world. A 'meal' can be picked up in a drive-thru and eaten on the highway and has no real meaning. Food has therefore been dissociated from meal times and the event that is a meal, making it an anytime, personal thing.

Americans spend a considerably lower percentage of their income on food than other wealthy, westernized countries. Quality food is simply not important to most Americans. Why? The slow-food culture present in say, France and Italy, is almost non-existent in the US. Parents don't pass down to their children appreciation for fine quality food, long meals and the things that come with appreciating food, rather than just gorging on it. This has become a major problem with the rise of heavily processed, calorie-dense and inexpensive fast food: lacking a food culture Americans eat poorly when given the option. It's a sociocultural-psychological problem that will be very difficult to solve.

We can start with educational programs that teach kids about healthy food and how to cook it in school. Require it along with health class and gym class. Kids need to learn early on that healthy food can be inexpensive, quick to prepare and delicious.

We're also on a precipice right now where being unhealthily overweight is becoming socially acceptable. 'Fat acceptance' movements are growing and clothing stores are adjusting their sizing to match American waistlines. As bad as it may sound, social stigma is a powerful motivator. I'd be much more comfortable being massively overweight in the US than in France, where someone who would be commonplace at Wal-Mart stateside gets stares and dirty looks. The cartoon above is funny, however if current trends continue it will become reality in the future.

My family on my mother's side is from Indiana (my father is from Switzerland) and I live in New England...while my relatives aren't quite obese, many are certainly overweight. When we go to visit my parents and I are out of place amidst somewhat more bulky family members. Plenty of comments about how we need to eat more and look 'frail'. I'm 6'1"/158.

[abijnk]

But healthy food (if you find the right kind) tastes good. It's not like eating healthier is that much of a penalty. I'll take a nice, lean chicken breast over a snickers any day. It's delicious. So, if you take it that healthy food and bad food taste about the same, why would someone do something intentionally bad to themselves?

Most everyone gets depressed at some point. Everyone has to deal with internal issues. It's how people handle them that differs. Someone else might eat ice-cream, I choose to run until I can't feel my legs anymore. We're both trying to escape whatever is causing us to feel depressed or bad, but there's still a choice in how you can address it.

But you don't get ridiculed for running do you? See, obesity, especially if it stems from underlying emotional issues like depression, turns into a vicious circle of sorts. They become overweight from being depressed and making bad decisions out of that, then they are ridiculed an belittled by people who think they are weak minded for coping with issues through comfort food and for looking outside the norm. That certainly doesn't help the issue at all.

Everyone needs to recognize that once a person is overweight it is too late to tell them how to avoid it. You need to realize that it no longer matters that the person chose to deal with their depression by eating. It certainly doesn't help a fat person to tell them how to avoid becoming fat. Nor does it help to pass judgment on the choices they have made. All that matters is correcting the situation, and this is not done through ridicule or snide remarks.



I do apologize if I am coming off heavy handed in this thread (pun intended to lighten the mood). This is an issue I have been dealing with for a long time, and have spent a long time thinking about and trying to address for myself. When I hear someone say that it's not that hard to choose the right foods I just wish so much that I could share the complex thought processes that go on in such a way that they might understand the struggle.

Sure, when I am sitting down and consciously planning a meal it is easy to choose to bake the chicken instead of fry it, to include vegetables instead of starchy or fatty sides. What's not easy are the night time cravings; the battle that goes on between the part of me that undeniably knows I should not eat that piece of bread before I got to sleep or that I should drive by Dairy Queen and not stop, and the part of me that simply doesn't care. Its completely irrational and completely uncontrollable all at the same time. And what's worse is that this struggle is visible for all to see. Not only do I have to struggle with the part of me that craves things that are bad for me, but I also have to struggle with the cruelties that I am subjected to for being overweight. Stares that never stop, name calling from grown adults who should know better.

I view my struggle with food as an addiction, and it helps me to view it in a light that is somewhat understandable to me. That might sound silly to some people, but it truly is a battle every day.

<snip for space>

You make a lot of good points. I believe there are studies that show children who sit down to regular meals with their parents tend to have healthier weights, among other things. I think you nailed that out lack of "food culture" is a major contributing factor.

[spaceboots06]

We can start with educational programs that teach kids about healthy food and how to cook it in school. Require it along with health class and gym class. Kids need to learn early on that healthy food can be inexpensive, quick to prepare and delicious.


I honestly don't think this is the best way to handle the situation because children will associate eating well with school, and, I can say many kids do not like school. Therefore, children will not like eating healthy. I remember back in the day when I was in middle school or even high school there were books that were mandatory to read. Being a rebellious teenager I refused to read them, not knowing they were actually interesting books. What I'm getting at is that heath classes and P.E. probably discourages children instead of encouraging them.

But you don't get ridiculed for running do you? See, obesity, especially if it stems from underlying emotional issues like depression, turns into a vicious circle of sorts. They become overweight from being depressed and making bad decisions out of that, then they are ridiculed an belittled by people who think they are weak minded for coping with issues through comfort food and for looking outside the norm. That certainly doesn't help the issue at all..

I'm in no position to be making suggestions but an alternative to jogging or running is walking. It's like lifting weights; you can't start benching max reps, you have to slowly build your muscles. Granted, some people can't run (I can only run for five minutes because of cigarettes but that's an entirely different story) but you build up your stamina and eventually will be able to run. One of my professors had cancer and gained a ton of weight when he came back to teaching in the classroom. I thought you lose weight when you have cancer but he apparently did the exact opposite of that. Anyway, he was and still is a fantastic basketball player. Basketball involves a lot of running back and fourth, and, surprisingly he was able to do that with his humongous belly, arms and thighs.

[OutThere]

I honestly don't think this is the best way to handle the situation because children will associate eating well with school, and, I can say many kids do not like school. Therefore, children will not like eating healthy. I remember back in the day when I was in middle school or even high school there were books that were mandatory to read. Being a rebellious teenager I refused to read them, not knowing they were actually interesting books. What I'm getting at is that heath classes and P.E. probably discourages children instead of encouraging them.

Learning how to eat properly has to start somewhere, and it's certainly not going to start with parents teaching their kids that a family meal can be had at the drive through. Kids who grow up that way don't learn how to shop for healthy food or cook for themselves. Both of those skills are part of a necessary foundation for a food-aware society. How would you propose we start making these changes?

[Sky Blue]

There is no culture of food and meals in the United States as there is elsewhere in the world. A 'meal' can be picked up in a drive-thru and eaten on the highway and has no real meaning. Food has therefore been dissociated from meal times and the event that is a meal, making it an anytime, personal thing.

My family on my mother's side is from Indiana (my father is from Switzerland) and I live in New England...while my relatives aren't quite obese, many are certainly overweight. When we go to visit my parents and I are out of place amidst somewhat more bulky family members. Plenty of comments about how we need to eat more and look 'frail'. I'm 6'1"/158.

great post, completely agree. I'm from the UK and when we go visit my wifes family I'm always told i'm too skinny, I'm 5'11 and 165. I believe my 'perfect' weight is 157, but I'm not concerned with my weight as we both exercise and eat well. A lot of her family are overweight bordering on obese. Food to them is something to be prepared and eaten quickly whilst doing something else like watching TV.

[spaceboots06]

Learning how to eat properly has to start somewhere, and it's certainly not going to start with parents teaching their kids that a family meal can be had at the drive through. Kids who grow up that way don't learn how to shop for healthy food or cook for themselves. Both of those skills are part of a necessary foundation for a food-aware society. How would you propose we start making these changes?

See, I don't think it's a problem we need to deal with but rather the individual himself/herself depending on if said person even wants to resolve the "problem." I think people naturally tend to keep themselves healthy whether or not they're taught to. Although I'm not against words of encouragement and being helpful, people weren't created to solve other people's weight problems. I think television shows like The Biggest Loser are horrible displays- what are people are going to think represents America? Losing weight quick? I don't know. It's like viewing a Gitmo torture video and saying that sums up America. TV shows like that profit off of people, even if they're helping them.

[Demosthenes X]

That healthy, lean chicken is going to cost several dollars to purchase, then it has to be prepared. That snickers will cost less than a dollar and only requires the wrapper being opened.

All this says is that laziness contributes to obesity. I'll accept that hormones and genetics can contribute to obesity, but are you really defending obesity on the premise that it's easier?

As to the cost: chicken might be expensive, but a can of beans can be had for 69¢, has few calories, lots of protein, and can be prepared in the microwave in under a minute. And depending how you serve them, beans are delicious.

I'm sorry, but if people are obese because they are too lazy to eat properly then I have very little sympathy for them. Those that are obese for whatever reason but at least try to eat healthy and exercise, them I have sympathy and respect for.

[Iscariot]

But you don't get ridiculed for running do you? See, obesity, especially if it stems from underlying emotional issues like depression, turns into a vicious circle of sorts. They become overweight from being depressed and making bad decisions out of that, then they are ridiculed an belittled by people who think they are weak minded for coping with issues through comfort food and for looking outside the norm. That certainly doesn't help the issue at all.

Then get a good personal trainer (from a private studio and not a big name gym). A good personal trainer isn't going to make fun of you for being fat. In fact there is probably nobody who will understand what you're going through more than an experienced trainer who has helped people from all walks of life, and they'll be able to provide uplifting and positive motivation. Don't resign yourself to being constrained by your weight or your disease, I believe that with the right help you can do it!

All this says is that laziness contributes to obesity. I'll accept that hormones and genetics can contribute to obesity, but are you really defending obesity on the premise that it's easier?

As to the cost: chicken might be expensive, but a can of beans can be had for 69¢, has few calories, lots of protein, and can be prepared in the microwave in under a minute. And depending how you serve them, beans are delicious.

I'm sorry, but if people are obese because they are too lazy to eat properly then I have very little sympathy for them. Those that are obese for whatever reason but at least try to eat healthy and exercise, them I have sympathy and respect for.

You don't have to be sympathetic to understand the problem. Cheaper food is absolutely less healthy, in no small part thanks to uneven farm subsidies. There have been numerous studies that link poverty to obesity, and it encompasses a number of factors from the uneven pricing of food to poor education.

[OutThere]

Food to them is something to be prepared and eaten quickly whilst doing something else like watching TV.

Exactly.

See, I don't think it's a problem we need to deal with but rather the individual himself/herself depending on if said person even wants to resolve the "problem." I think people naturally tend to keep themselves healthy whether or not they're taught to. Although I'm not against words of encouragement and being helpful, people weren't created to solve other people's weight problems. I think television shows like The Biggest Loser are horrible displays- what are people are going to think represents America? Losing weight quick? I don't know. It's like viewing a Gitmo torture video and saying that sums up America. TV shows like that profit off of people, even if they're helping them.

This doesn't quite strike me as 'people naturally tend[ing] to keep themselves healthy whether or not they're taught to': http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/trends.html

[chrmjenkins]

All this says is that laziness contributes to obesity. I'll accept that hormones and genetics can contribute to obesity, but are you really defending obesity on the premise that it's easier?

Here's one of the greatest misconceptions. Just because people are disagreeing with you doesn't mean they're defending something. We're attempting to explain a phenomenon that many people would reduce to ignorance, laziness, and apathy on a certain group of people because it fits their world view better.


As to the cost: chicken might be expensive, but a can of beans can be had for 69¢, has few calories, lots of protein, and can be prepared in the microwave in under a minute. And depending how you serve them, beans are delicious.

Regardless, there is a perceived lack of variety there. There is a cornucopia of fast food and junk food that takes no preparing on the individual's part and can be had readily and cheaply. Even a little effort represents a mental barrier, akin to the magical phenomenon of "free" in the retail world.

[spaceboots06]

Exactly.



This doesn't quite strike me as 'people naturally tend[ing] to keep themselves healthy whether or not they're taught to': http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/trends.html

That .gif is disturbing. :(

[abijnk]

Then get a good personal trainer (from a private studio and not a big name gym). A good personal trainer isn't going to make fun of you for being fat. In fact there is probably nobody who will understand what you're going through more than an experienced trainer who has helped people from all walks of life, and they'll be able to provide uplifting and positive motivation. Don't resign yourself to being constrained by your weight or your disease, I believe that with the right help you can do it!

That wasn't my point at all. He wasn't talking about running to be healthy, but running to cope with issues. Some people choose to cope with issues by eating. My point was that his coping mechanism will not have any negative effects on his depression, while comfort eating and being overweight because of it will.

[yojitani]

Neither a sin nor a style. On one hand, as people have said, what passes as nutritious in the US and the UK (obesity is becoming a bigger problem there too) is simply not. Especially here in the US, I've noticed that what passes for 'homemade' consists of a lot of pre-prepared ingredients (Ragu sauce, pie crust, etc.) and a lot of those ingredients are exceptionally high in sodium and sugar. There is also the serious problem of all the corn based ingredients in the US (check to see how much corn syrup is in the things you consume).

In addition to absolutely horrifying eating habits even when fast food is not involved, social and economic problems exasperate the situation. It's not a law of nature that obesity is most prevalent among the socially and economically disadvantaged.

[Iscariot]

Some people choose to cope with issues by eating.

I would not think that it's really much of a choice.
My point was that his coping mechanism will not have any negative effects on his depression, while comfort eating and being overweight because of it will.

And my point was that I believe in you and your ability to overcome!

[spaceboots06]

I would not think that it's really much of a choice.


And my point was that I believe in you and your ability to overcome!

Some people don't recognize it as a problem though.

[OutThere]

That .gif is disturbing. :(

As is this: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity

[Badandy]

'Fat acceptance' movements are growing and clothing stores are adjusting their sizing to match American waistlines.

You would not believe how difficult it is for me to find a well-fitted shirt in the U.S. It's nearly impossible. The cheapest dress shirt that is acceptable for my taste and size costs $100. That's ridiculous.

[Ugg]

On another note, perhaps some people can only eat unhealthy food because it's nearly infinitely cheaper than healthier meals. If I was on a shoestring budget I would be eating McDonald's everyday, not shopping at Whole Foods.

I think that's one of the biggest fallacies out there. I try to eat as healthy and as organically as possible. Trader Joe's and Whole Foods are places I always shop at, not exclusively however, but they do have decent deals on some foods. It's not that expensive if you know how to prepare food, and I think as other people have already said, that's the biggest problem we face.

Not everyone is obese because they stuff their face with food. Some people are obese due to other factors such as thyroid issues or hormonal imbalances, and thanks to our wonderful healthcare system, many of them can't get the treatment they need because they're uninsured and can't get insurance because obesity is a pre existing condition.

I'm hypothyroid and just quit smoking. Hypothyroidism is easy to diagnose and the medicine to treat it is dirt cheap. I pay about $20 for three months worth. It took a year or so for the hypothyroidism to level out but my weight went down pretty quickly. I gained 20 pounds when I quit smoking 4 months ago, I've since lost 4 and with any luck will lose the remaining 15 by the end of September.

It's not a matter of medical problems, it's mostly a matter of mental issues.

There is no culture of food and meals in the United States as there is elsewhere in the world. A 'meal' can be picked up in a drive-thru and eaten on the highway and has no real meaning. Food has therefore been dissociated from meal times and the event that is a meal, making it an anytime, personal thing.

Americans spend a considerably lower percentage of their income on food than other wealthy, westernized countries. Quality food is simply not important to most Americans. Why? The slow-food culture present in say, France and Italy, is almost non-existent in the US. Parents don't pass down to their children appreciation for fine quality food, long meals and the things that come with appreciating food, rather than just gorging on it. This has become a major problem with the rise of heavily processed, calorie-dense and inexpensive fast food: lacking a food culture Americans eat poorly when given the option. It's a sociocultural-psychological problem that will be very difficult to solve.

We can start with educational programs that teach kids about healthy food and how to cook it in school. Require it along with health class and gym class. Kids need to learn early on that healthy food can be inexpensive, quick to prepare and delicious.

We're also on a precipice right now where being unhealthily overweight is becoming socially acceptable. 'Fat acceptance' movements are growing and clothing stores are adjusting their sizing to match American waistlines. As bad as it may sound, social stigma is a powerful motivator. I'd be much more comfortable being massively overweight in the US than in France, where someone who would be commonplace at Wal-Mart stateside gets stares and dirty looks. The cartoon above is funny, however if current trends continue it will become reality in the future.

My family on my mother's side is from Indiana (my father is from Switzerland) and I live in New England...while my relatives aren't quite obese, many are certainly overweight. When we go to visit my parents and I are out of place amidst somewhat more bulky family members. Plenty of comments about how we need to eat more and look 'frail'. I'm 6'1"/158.

You hit the nail on the head.

The US has no culture of food. No pierogi or pasta or paella much less any tradition that goes along with the food. "Foreign" tasting foods were made bland so as to appeal to the largest group of people. The US still has an immense aversion to garlic and spices.

I recently bought a TV, it's been probably more than 10 years since I watched television on a regular basis. (I honestly bought it to watch movies on but I find myself watching the networks from time to time:D ) The one thing that has absolutely astounded me is the number of morbidly obese actors! I just absolutely cannot believe it! Obesity is being normalized and I find that very, very sad.

My sister is an inch shorter and about the same weight as abiyng. Our mother has always been obese, but myself, and my two brothers can probably fit in the same clothes we wore in high school. Well, maybe not the hip huggers! Our father was normal weight until he turned 60 when he started to put on the pounds. He's probably gained about 80 pounds in the last 15 years.

Anyway, I read an article the other day that people whose same sex parent, girl/mother, boy/father is overweight or obese will most likely be overweight or obese as well. My mother is obese, her mother was obese, her mother was obese and even her mother, my great great grandmother was obese. So, I also believe that irresponsible parents are mostly the problem, not hormones or illnesses.

I feel sorry for those kids who are too fat to ride a bike or play basketball or do all the other things that my generation took for granted.

[Brien]

On another note, perhaps some people can only eat unhealthy food because it's nearly infinitely cheaper than healthier meals. If I was on a shoestring budget I would be eating McDonald's everyday, not shopping at Whole Foods.

I tend to agree with this, in that the cheaper food is, the worse it usually is. In the past, this was the opposite: cheap food was unprocessed, or at the worst, canned, while the higher end cuisine tended to be heavy french food.

Most of the obese people I see spend more money on soda in one year than it would cost to buy chicken breasts for one year. I don't doubt that some people eat unhealthily because of finances, but a lot of poor people somehow manage to afford a $6 box of cigarettes per day...
I have family members that come and stay here a few times a year, and they're heavier people. Their diet consists of gummi bears, ice cream, and fast food, not to mention the fact they eat dinner at 10 PM. It's no wonder they are the way they are.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Everyone needs to recognize that once a person is overweight it is too late to tell them how to avoid it. You need to realize that it no longer matters that the person chose to deal with their depression by eating. It certainly doesn't help a fat person to tell them how to avoid becoming fat. Nor does it help to pass judgment on the choices they have made. All that matters is correcting the situation, and this is not done through ridicule or snide remarks.

Well not to come off as rude or anything, but maybe those rude remarks and stares could help prevent obesity, or at least motivate the obese to buy a bowflex.

[spaceboots06]

Most of the obese people I see spend more money on soda in one year than it would cost to buy chicken breasts for one year. I don't doubt that some people eat unhealthily because of finances, but a lot of poor people somehow manage to afford a $6 box of cigarettes per day...


BTW: The title of this thread is unnecessarily hostile and is preventing some good dialogue from taking place.

$6? Woah, I need to move to your neighborhood! :D

I'll change it.

I think that's one of the biggest fallacies out there. I try to eat as healthy and as organically as possible. Trader Joe's and Whole Foods are places I always shop at, not exclusively however, but they do have decent deals on some foods. It's not that expensive if you know how to prepare food, and I think as other people have already said, that's the biggest problem we face.

Oh, c'mon! I was at Whole Foods literally hours ago. I bought half a gallon of milk and it was $8. I don't typically do that but the milk they have there is fantastic. Also, the foods they have to offer there which are already made by their chefs are expensive! It's like $5 a rib and $12/pound of pasta! Even the breads and muffins and baked goods are expensive too! I don't go to Trader Joe's too often because it's two avenues further than Whole Foods but if my memory serves correctly their prices are comparable. Also, the lines are always long!

[Badandy]

$6? Woah, I need to move to your neighborhood! :D


To be honest, I have no idea if $6 is high or low.

[spaceboots06]

To be honest, I have no idea if $6 is high or low.

Really, really low. I'd be lucky to find a pack of Marlboros for 8 or 9 bucks where I live.

[NT1440]

Really, really low. I'd be lucky to find a pack of Marlboros for 8 or 9 bucks where I live.

I find smokers to be disgusting people.


See how inflammatory that kind of thinking is?

[TuffLuffJimmy]

To be honest, I have no idea if $6 is high or low.

meh. I'd say that's about right. Although ALL cigarettes now are over priced and overtaxed. Something about Americans being morons who are all over scapegoats.... Americans will pass absolutely any bill, no matter what it will cost as long as it's supplementary paid for through cigarette taxes.

[Gelfin]

That wasn't my point at all. He wasn't talking about running to be healthy, but running to cope with issues. Some people choose to cope with issues by eating. My point was that his coping mechanism will not have any negative effects on his depression, while comfort eating and being overweight because of it will.

It's funny this comes up, because having been both, I always thought being stuck overweight was a lot, and I mean a very lot, like being stuck in depression. Telling overweight-Gelfin to just eat less and exercise was exactly like telling depressive-Gelfin to just cheer the hell up already. It's complicated when you're inside it. Insurmountable.

In my experience depression is the sort of thing you can fight, but you never really beat it until you're Ready. If I could tell people how to become Ready, of course, they'd have to invent a Nobel Prize in psychology just to give me one. Losing weight for me was exactly like that.

It sounds dumb in retrospect, but it was seriously an epiphany at the time, that I had any meaningful control over this process. My father, when I was a kid, reached a point where he could have leased himself out to Macy's at Thanksgiving. I spent a long time assuming I had lost the genetic lottery. For a while I would spend an hour on an elliptical trainer, notice I had burned approximately three Oreos worth of Calories, then collapse in front of the TV in frustration. Usually with Oreos. Everything I had experienced reinforced the conclusion that I had some sort of freakish caloric singularity in me that did not respond to diet and exercise like normal people do.

It occurred to me one day that all the supposed tricks that were supposed to get you out of losing weight "the hard way" were actually generally significantly more complicated and restrictive than just doing it "the hard way" to begin with. I was actually doing more work chasing the thin hope of not having to do the work than actually doing the work, or I would have if I hadn't been chasing that hope halfheartedly because the skeptic in me sort of knew all the "secrets" were bogus. It sort of gave me permission to fail, though, because the problem wasn't me. It was some other guy's miracle plan misleading me. That bastard.

Cutting out fast food entirely was the kickstart I needed. It was the first thing I ever did that made me actually feel empowered to change how my body was shaped. I didn't especially eat less or even eat out less, but I refused to eat just about anyplace where I could order off the wall or from my car, and I dropped ten pounds in a month without any other change. It just scratched the surface, but it was positive feedback.

A lot of people swear by the need for exercise, but based on my experience I tend to suggest people never exercise to lose weight. People should exercise, of course, but only to be fit, not to be thin. It was much easier for me to cultivate the label-reading habit and to keep in mind the sweat-and-pain cost of that single Oreo before I ate it than to manage it after the fact. Besides, there is some evidence (http://www.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=Does+Exercise+Really+Make+Us+Thinner?+--+New+York+Magazine&expire=&urlID=24071470&fb=Y&url=http://nymag.com/news/sports/38001/&partnerID=73272) that if you're already inclined to eat 10% more Calories than you need, burning 100 Calories will just give you an appetite for 110 Calories anyway, which fixes nothing. Thus to me fixing the diet first is (and was) an absolute must.

That may not be the correct thing for anybody else. I don't know. I just know I can't be too judgmental because I've been there and that feeling of empowerment is damnably hard to come by. I can't help but think that we've got a whole country full of people who feel similarly helpless and don't have a good feel for the relationship between what they do and what they weigh, drowning in so much ************ on the subject that they don't know which way is up. It is so common that sometimes it seems unrealistic Hollywood physiques are just about the only thing preventing obesity from becoming the new normal, leaving us a nation of tortured souls, often in denial, taunted by what we've been conditioned to believe we can never be (and in many cases, what we genuinely can never be absent airbrushing and million dollar surgeries), and exploited by jackasses who see that pain as a route to a quick buck. Women have it toughest, no doubt, but guys are not immune, and in fact often feel an intense social pressure to Not Care in a manly fashion. Like most bravado, it's often a put-on.

I won't insist, but there's always the chance that you already sort of know something you can do; you're just not Ready to do it. It may not be possible to be Ready on demand, but at least try to be ready to be Ready. Things can change, but it's more like Judo than just trying to pummel it into submission bare-fisted all at once. Patience and small changes at the right time, I'd say.

And always listen to Iscariot. Seriously.

[anjinha]

I view my struggle with food as an addiction, and it helps me to view it in a light that is somewhat understandable to me. That might sound silly to some people, but it truly is a battle every day.

It is an addiction and most people don't get it. Some people cope with their issues with alcohol, drugs... Some do it with food.

And the problem is that unlike alcohol or drugs you can never stop eating entirely so you're always on the verge of overeating again. Try telling an alcoholic "you can drink alcohol, but only one glass of wine a day!". How would that work?

And for those still skeptic: some experts believe sugar is as addictive as nicotine or even heroin.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

And for those still skeptic: some experts believe sugar is as addictive as nicotine or even heroin.

I would bet that to be true. I've tried to cut down on my sugar intake many times, because it knocks me out cold for hours if I have it, but I still have it even though it makes me feel awful.

[spaceboots06]

I find smokers to be disgusting people.


See how inflammatory that kind of thinking is?

Me too, that's why I stopped. And I wasn't saying overweight people were disgusting.

Gigantic quote here

Two things. I like how you capitalize Ready, it makes it seem as if it has more importance. Reminds me of George Saunders. Also, I must agree on cutting out on the fast foods. Although the few sentences I may add seems like nothing compared to that huge block of words I must admit the times I ate well and drank a lot of water I felt as if I had more energy in my body. Seriously.

[CorvusCamenarum]

$6? Woah, I need to move to your neighborhood! :D
It's $5 here, although I did like the short time promo of the new Marlboro 54's at $2.70.

Oh, c'mon! I was at Whole Foods literally hours ago. I bought half a gallon of milk and it was $8. I don't typically do that but the milk they have there is fantastic. Also, the foods they have to offer there which are already made by their chefs are expensive! It's like $5 a rib and $12/pound of pasta! Even the breads and muffins and baked goods are expensive too! I don't go to Trader Joe's too often because it's two avenues further than Whole Foods but if my memory serves correctly their prices are comparable. Also, the lines are always long!
$8/half gallon of milk? $12 for pasta? Holy God where do you live? Milk here is $3-3.50 per gallon unless you go to a gas station or something and it's $4 there.

[spaceboots06]

It's $5 here, although I did like the short time promo of the new Marlboro 54's at $2.70.


$8/half gallon of milk? $12 for pasta? Holy God where do you live? Milk here is $3-3.50 per gallon unless you go to a gas station or something and it's $4 there.

New York. When they were doing the special Marlboro Smooths deal a while back they were $6 bucks. Sometimes they have double 72 packs for $13 bucks.

Those prices are for Whole Foods. At a regular place a gallon of milk would be around $4 too.

[Badandy]

And for those still skeptic: some experts believe sugar is as addictive as nicotine or even heroin.

That's ridiculous. Seeing someone addicted to heroine is much more horrifying than seeing someone addicted to Coldstone Creamery (I fall into that category). Luckily for my body, I'm addicted to basketball and that generally negates anything I eat.

I guess unlike Gelfin, I happen to think those calories burned counters on treadmills are evil. While some people can use it as a way to equate bad foods to physical labor/pain, I'm betting far more people become completely discouraged when they work out and sweat for an hour and it says they've barely burn anything. Those people might not have the knowledge that by exercising they're ramping up their metabolic rate and will burn more calories throughout the day in their rest state. I really think those counters cause a evokes a sense of futility for the people who look at them.

I also happen to agree with Gelfin, listen to Iscariot, MacRumor's authority on diet/exercise.

EDIT: New avatar. I've been here for four years and never had one. What are you impressions of it? Does it give off a certain vibe (that I may or may not want)?

[anjinha]

That's ridiculous. Seeing someone addicted to heroine is much more horrifying than seeing someone addicted to Coldstone Creamery (I fall into that category).

I'm not debating that but that's not the point. The point is that it's not as easy to "just eat healthy" like people say because addiction to food, and in this particular case to sugar, is real. I never said being addicted to sugar was as bad as being addicted to heroin, just that as a substance it's apparently as addictive.

[bobber205]

Very large people make me cry.

I can't imagine the pain they feel everyday... :(

Nobody likes being that way. It's very sad.

[spaceboots06]

Very large people make me cry.

I can't imagine the pain they feel everyday... :(

Nobody likes being that way. It's very sad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Kamakawiwo'ole

[Gelfin]

I guess unlike Gelfin, I happen to think those calories burned counters on treadmills are evil. While some people can use it as a way to equate bad foods to physical labor/pain, I'm betting far more people become completely discouraged when they work out and sweat for an hour and it says they've barely burn anything.

Oh, I came to see it as evil, and for exactly that reason. It did more harm than good because the discouragement made me feel like no matter how much I did it couldn't possibly be enough.

It was years before I came back around and attacked it from the food angle.

[okrelayer]

I work in nutrition and I deal with diets on an every day basis. I see plenty of the patients diet orders, as well as customers getting food in our cafe.

a start to fix some of these problems is, our hospital cafe has loads of fried food, deserts. The patients can order Fried chicken, french fries, as well as processed pizza (depending on their diet of course). This is a huge problem. I have brought it up to higher management about altering the menus, and its just not happening. A place like a hospital should breath healthy eating.

I know that there are many factors that fall into loosing weight, or why people become overweight. I wont touch many of those, as there is a percentage of people that do have a real valid reason for some of their weight problems.

But im talking about the people that come through the cafe and get two hamburgers, two fries, desert, and a DIET coke. The Diet coke is not going to over ride anything.. and repeat this twice a day at work, and who knows what else at home. Then they wonder why they are overweight, and "wishes" they could be thin. These people need to realize that being in shape, or thin is not something that just "happens".

I am 5'8 125 pounds. And while I do not eat very well at all (pizza,burgers,fries, chinese food ect) I don't over indulge, and I workout a few times a week. its never what you eat, its now much of it that you eat.

Jay Leno said a joke a few years ago that stuck with me. Something along the lines of: "Papa Johns pizza announced today that they were going to start making a healthyer, diet pizza. Diet Pizza? Come on! Why dont you just eat one slice and put the box away" (medical issues aside, which hold a very small percentage im sure) If you wanna loose weight, you have to WANNA loose weight.

[spaceboots06]

Easy solution- get off of the treadmills and get onto the stairmasters and those ridiculous looking swivel things. You burn so many more calories on those.

[Markleshark]

As someone who was obese in my teens I'm sorry, but I'm from the school of 'stop eating as much'.

When I was 18 I weighed as much as 15 stone (210lbs), genuinely, one morning I woke up and decided I didn't want to be obese anymore and put myself on a strict calorie controlled diet. I have always had relatively physical jobs as well, so I did very little exercise and I lost 5.5 stone (77lbs) in less than 6 months.

I went from snacking, large meals and drinking lots to having 3 meals in the day, alcohol one or twice a week and no snacking at all and the weight literally fell off me, I know now I probably lost it all too quickly. I used to eat when I was bored at home, if you really, really want to do something about your weight getting in the mental position to just stop is quite easy, it's no different to really wanting to do anything else, if your only half interested it's not gonna work.

I know my body well, I'm one of those people who will throw weight right back on again if I go back to my old ways and I have to constantly watch what I eat. I have friends who could gorge all day and will still never look worse for it, thats annoying... those bastards! I generally eat whatever meals I want, so long as it falls into one of my 3 meals a day. It's hard work, but so is everything in this world, you get nothing for free I'm afraid.

It's a sensitive subject, but one I have experience of. If you really, really want to change, you can... Just put the effort in.

[jecapaga]

I work in nutrition and I deal with diets on an every day basis. I see plenty of the patients diet orders, as well as customers getting food in our cafe.

a start to fix some of these problems is, our hospital cafe has loads of fried food, deserts. The patients can order Fried chicken, french fries, as well as processed pizza (depending on their diet of course). This is a huge problem. I have brought it up to higher management about altering the menus, and its just not happening. A place like a hospital should breath healthy eating.

I know that there are many factors that fall into loosing weight, or why people become overweight. I wont touch many of those, as there is a percentage of people that do have a real valid reason for some of their weight problems.

But im talking about the people that come through the cafe and get two hamburgers, two fries, desert, and a DIET coke. The Diet coke is not going to over ride anything.. and repeat this twice a day at work, and who knows what else at home. Then they wonder why they are overweight, and "wishes" they could be thin. These people need to realize that being in shape, or thin is not something that just "happens".

I am 5'8 125 pounds. And while I do not eat very well at all (pizza,burgers,fries, chinese food ect) I don't over indulge, and I workout a few times a week. its never what you eat, its now much of it that you eat.

Jay Leno said a joke a few years ago that stuck with me. Something along the lines of: "Papa Johns pizza announced today that they were going to start making a healthyer, diet pizza. Diet Pizza? Come on! Why dont you just eat one slice and put the box away" (medical issues aside, which hold a very small percentage im sure) If you wanna loose weight, you have to WANNA loose weight.

It's lose. Lose. If you wanna lose weight. Jesus Fricking Christ People. LOOSE MEANS SOMETHING, LIKE AN ARTICLE OF CLOTHING IS LOOSE AROUND YOUR NECK.

[CorvusCamenarum]

New York. When they were doing the special Marlboro Smooths deal a while back they were $6 bucks. Sometimes they have double 72 packs for $13 bucks.
Smooths are the stone nuts. You should find a nice indian reservation to order from, you can get anything for about $40/carton from them.

Those prices are for Whole Foods. At a regular place a gallon of milk would be around $4 too.
Is the milk really better, different, etc? We don't have Whole Foods anywhere near here, so I'm hard pressed to wonder why someone would pay that much, unless it's just a SWPL-type markup.

Back to the topic at hand, sugar is definitely one of the problems. Reading labels at the store, you'd be amazed at how many things have sugar/HFCS added to it. Just about anything pre-processed is a culprit. It even holds true among the so-called "diet" foods that advertise 89000% less fat than the non-diet versions. They simply replace the fat with sugars so they can call it reduced fat, but unused sugars in the body goes straight to...you guessed it - fat.

America needs to learn how to really cook again.

[thejadedmonkey]

(without reading the whole thread, my apologies) I don't feel sorry for 95% of obese people out there.

My girlfriend's mom is very over weight. She can't get lipo or a tummy tuck because her kidney's are failing, and she can't even get in line for a new kidney because she's too over weight... Then there's the numerous other issues she has, and I feel sorry for her... but then she eats tortilla chips and counts it as part of her 11 grains she's supposed to have daily, and I can't help but think that's part of why she's over weight.

I'm 21, I have a small beer gut... I blame myself and myself only, and know it's because I sit and play WoW while eating chips.

For the 5% who try, and don't do stupid things like count chips as a healthy grain, I feel sorry for you. Everyone else, quit your bitchin' :cool:

[Axl Rose]

Unless you have some sort of medical condition, then i really don't feel sorry for fat people. Alot of my relatives are a bit heavy, and im a bit disgusted, all they have to do is stop eating junk food and go for a walk, and don't give this crap about how your depressed or whatever, get up and do something about it, people have done it before,, so why cant they.

[Iscariot]

And always listen to Iscariot. Seriously.
I also happen to agree with Gelfin, listen to Iscariot, MacRumor's authority on diet/exercise.

Ha, you guys should have saved the praise for after I said something profound or even remotely worthwhile in this thread ;) I will try to live up to your praise.
EDIT: New avatar. I've been here for four years and never had one. What are you impressions of it? Does it give off a certain vibe (that I may or may not want)?

Is that an emoticon on the horizon of the flooding scene from the 2012 trailer? At any rate, I'm more a fan of simplistic or iconic avatars, and IMO you strike me as the "awesome dog".

[iBlue]

It astonishes me how some people can view people who are obese as an all-together different class of citizens. I think a big component of it is that people feel financially encumbered by overweight people in that they believe that they are responsible for many of the strains on medical system, causing dollars to come from the normal, healthy-weight people's pockets.

To say that it's a product of lack of motivation on an individual's part is remarkably short-sighted. There are numerous factors about today's way of life that contribute to these. One is the minimal amount of activity our daily lives require of us. With so many desk jobs and technological advancements, it takes more effort than it normally would to get our necessary levels of exercise. Another factor is the self-exacerbating cycle of obesity and poverty. Those who are poor are often forced to purchase lower quality foods that have been processed and are filled with saturated fats and sodium. They automatically have been dealt a bad hand due to their socioeconomic status. Subsequently, they are also the least likely to be able to afford their own medical care, meaning they are forced to seek public funds. This can become a trap, giving the individual even less hope of bettering their financial situation, and consequently, being able to eat healthier.

Another issue stemming from how we've processed foods is that we've found out how to make a lot of foods that taste good that aren't good for you. Often times, these are also very easy to obtain both because of readiness and cost. Because of this, foods are also often comforts that are easily obtained. If someone is obese, there is a fair chance that food offers a comfort for their worries. From childhood on, we ridicule those who are overweight, only to make them turn to food to diffuse the stress being placed upon them by not fitting in.

For many, it's no longer an issue of having enough to eat, rather, their job is to make sure they don't overeat. All these above factors show that the tables have been turned from what any normal animal would experience in its native habitat. Indeed, we can also see pets who become overweight simply because the minimum of what their lives now require to survive causes them to be overweight. The fact that obesity is a struggle for so many people should surprise no one, nor should it be a source of ridicule. Sure, there are some who endlessly and shamelessly gorge, not caring about their health, but would you judge a significant portion of a our population on the deeds of only a part of that group?

This is a great post, it needed quoting.

It's funny this comes up, because having been both, I always thought being stuck overweight was a lot, and I mean a very lot, like being stuck in depression. Telling overweight-Gelfin to just eat less and exercise was exactly like telling depressive-Gelfin to just cheer the hell up already. It's complicated when you're inside it. Insurmountable.
<snip remainder of post>

And this.


I have to thank abiyng87 for casting some light onto the situation as well. And OutThere for very accurately pointing out that there is an unfortunate cycle with the type of food so many people are becoming accustomed to.


I do find it very frustrating to read many "just" eat less/exercise more comments. If it were really so simple, there wouldn't be a problem, would there? :rolleyes: It's a complicated issue and it's not made better by oversimplified and snarky reactions. If there isn't an underlying medical condition going on (some of which are yet to be discovered, I imagine) there are psychological ones, if not both. Losing weight isn't easy, not for everyone, and fighting a losing battle is mentally (and physically) excruciating. One may look to food for comfort. The cycle continues.

I think education and support is far more beneficial than ridicule.

[pelicanflip]

Just curious as to where everyone stands on obesity. I don't know about countries besides the US but walking down a New York City street is becoming harder to do. I never really paid attention to it but I would say 65% of people in NYC are either overweight or obese. I'm neither of the two but have had phases in my life where I was mildly overweight.

I don't think obesity doesn't make you a bad person, but, I don't approve of it. I'm a little more understanding in terms of obesity running in a family, but it's not entirely a genetic problem. Obesity can be beat.

What do you guys think?

I think you're terrible misinformed.

Obesity rate in NYC is about 15%, not 65%. 65% obesity is a damn serious crisis on your hands. You're saying that more than half the people in NYC are obese? I'm looking around my entire office, and I see maybe a handful of them out of 200.

I think you're classifying slightly overweight people along with those who legitimately have obesity. There are the average people, the overweight, and the obese. Obesity is when your excess body fat has grown to the point where it is actually dangerous to your health and reduces your life expectancy.

Diet is also not the only cause of obesity, it is only one factor out of many other more serious factors. While you have a general control over your own diet, albeit including cost and availability issues, there are more pressing issues, such as genetics, medical and psychiatric illness, social environments, and certain infectious agents.

It's completely wrong to say to an obese person, "just go on a diet." You have no idea where they're coming from, what their genectic makeup is, what they're dealing with every day, or better put, you know nothing at all about them. Sometimes it's much more than just a simple decision and it goes far beyond their own control for their own weight.

[Unspoken Demise]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Kamakawiwo'ole

He had a beautiful voice. I'm glad he had a talent that he could really shine with. His version of "Somewhere over the rainbow" is out of this world.

[iGary]

Just curious as to where everyone stands on obesity. I don't know about countries besides the US but walking down a New York City street is becoming harder to do. I never really paid attention to it but I would say 65% of people in NYC are either overweight or obese. I'm neither of the two but have had phases in my life where I was mildly overweight.

I don't think obesity doesn't make you a bad person, but, I don't approve of it. I'm a little more understanding in terms of obesity running in a family, but it's not entirely a genetic problem. Obesity can be beat.

What do you guys think?

I don't understand why you're so obsessed with it.

[iBlue]

He had a beautiful voice. I'm glad he had a talent that he could really shine with. His version of "Somewhere over the rainbow" is out of this world.

DEFINITELY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ltAGuuru7Q)! That song is toothachingly sweet. I completely adore it and find myself almost tearing up when I hear it, which isn't a common reaction from me at all. There is just something about it.

[Unspoken Demise]

DEFINITELY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZFkXQKCuBc)! That song is toothachingly sweet. I completely adore it and find myself almost tearing up when I hear it, which isn't a common reaction from me at all. There is just something about it.

I think what I like about his music is that you don't attach a face to his music. Its as if his words and voice are a being of their own, beyond the limitations of a physical being. I grew up with my mom listening to him a lot, and I grew very fond of him, with SWOTR being my favorite. He was quite an angel.

[Shivetya]

I find smokers to be disgusting people.


See how inflammatory that kind of thinking is?

I see fatties the same way.


Amazing how we will accept the one over the other. I will date a women who smokes sooner than one who is very overweight. I can see around the smoking, I do not let anyone smoke in my car or house, and but I see it as no different than drinking.

I cannot see around gross amounts of weight. Sorry, just cannot do it. It isn't hard to have a date not smoke while we are out, it isn't possible for a fattie to not be ... fat

[Shivetya]

I understand a lot of the empathy in this thread, however, people are ***** footing around the actual problem. Today there are significantly higher amounts of obese people than there were yesteryear. This is brought on by a DISGUSTING diet and an increasingly sedentary lifestyle. Sure, we can talk about how empathetic we are toward people with a chemical imbalance or hormone disorder, and believe me I do feel for those people, but the real issue here is lifestyle choices.



Welcome to our new world order, where people don't have to be responsible for what they do, after all the government will take care of it with other people's money.

In other words, the constant "its not your fault" mentality pushed by government which wants to more power over the people has come to fruition. They will give you a list of excuses for your behavior or appearance so you don't have to be encumbered by guilt - all provided you toe the line.

Can't wait till we get forced into paying for other people's medical bills. I guarantee that it will only get worse as people will just shrug their shoulders and say "well if it makes me sick I don't have to pay for it".

[iBlue]

I see fatties the same way.

Amazing how we will accept the one over the other. I will date a women who smokes sooner than one who is very overweight. I can see around the smoking, I do not let anyone smoke in my car or house, and but I see it as no different than drinking.

I cannot see around gross amounts of weight. Sorry, just cannot do it. It isn't hard to have a date not smoke while we are out, it isn't possible for a fattie to not be ... fat

It's cool, I'm sure it isn't possible for the fatties to see around complete and utter cockishness either.

[iGary]

Can't wait till we get forced into paying for other people's medical bills.

You already do. I suppose you'd leave people in the street to die, filthy nasty people that they are.

I see fatties the same way. it isn't possible for a fattie to not be ... fat

Is it everyone you hate, or just certain people?

[BenEndeem]

Just to bring something new to the discussion, I believe that some people are occasionally labeled overweight when they aren't. For example when I was 13-14 my BMI was around 28. While doing 'Health & Fitness' in PE, my PE teacher (blind follower of the BMI scale) said that I was indeed fat.

My doctor said not to worry as I most certainly didn't look nearly obese, nor show any signs of having high body fat. He was rather baffled at first and I had to step on another set of scales afterward to confirm accuracy if I remember rightly. Indeed I'd had worries about it before that time too, aged 11 (mean comments in the first year of high school :rolleyes: ) and though my BMI was at the higher end of healthy, I appeared much thinner than the result made out.

Even now, most people seem a tad dumbfounded if I tell them my weight, many have commented that they would put me at a stone or more (aka 14lbs+) lighter.

As for now I'm 6'2 and I was 189lbs last I checked which would give me a BMI around 24. My weight hasn't changed much in the years since then, so at 14 I would have been about the same weight and 5'9.

Certainly other members of my family have found themselves in similar situations. I have no idea what causes it, but it seems to get those who blindly follow the BMI scale fired up.

But on topic, I don't condone obesity, I just don't believe that a BMI of between 19 and 25 is strictly the healthy weight region for everyone.

[Badandy]

I don't understand why you're so obsessed with it.

I'm guessing it's because he views it the same as smoking cigarettes. I sure do. It doesn't affect me directly (you know, besides paying for the thousands of dollars of health care they will undoubtedly need), but it's a little sad and offputting to see someone who, through their actions, have let themselves go so much. The vast majority of the obese are that way because of their choices, not because of hormone imbalances/take your pick. It's a huge misconception in America now that being obese is normal. It's not normal. What percentage of Americans were obese 30 years ago? 50 years ago?

Why I'm obsessed with it? I know you weren't quoting me, but I'm interested in the issue because an alarming percentage of Americans are unable to go out and do fun stuff! Basketball, baseball, football (both kinds), and even rock-climbing are hugely fun recreational activities that are good for you.

It's unfortunate that we live in such a PC society that people can't even accept the simple explanation: eat less, excercise more. It's not offensive, and no matter what people in this thread hae said, it is simple. No matter the underlying cause of eating. It's all about will power. This isn't some special exception to will power, this is it and everyone can do it, no matter where you're starting from. Calories burned should be greater than calories consumed. It is that simple. But don't just look at calories on the treadmill, it's depressing. If you concentrate on eating healthier and excercising until you're tired, you're on the right track.

Most people turn to bad habits when they feel unhappy; it's up to the individual person to make that coping mechanism something that is good for them. This thread's view of "understanding", which is sorely needed on this issue, is going way too far: It's justifying being so overweight that your life expectancy is drastically decreased. This is not good for anyone involved. If people can quit the massively addictive drug that is nicotine, you can choose to eat healthier food that is still as delicious as what you're eating now and go outside for a walk instead of watching terrible "reality" TV.

The best motivator is reinforcement and seeing a positive change from your new lifestyle. I guarantee that after a simple week of eating healthier and getting excercise you will notice results. You will sleep better, you will be more energetic, and you will be happier. And once you feel that, you're over the hump: being healthy will just feel like the right thing to do.

[.Andy]

It's unfortunate that we live in such a PC society that people can't even accept the simple explanation: eat less, excercise more. It's not offensive, and it is simple. No matter the underlying cause of eating. It's all about will power. This isn't some special exception to will power, this is it and everyone can do it, no matter where you're starting from. Calories burned should be greater than calories consumed. It is that simple.
Unfortunately obesity is not that simple. Obesity is a complex psychological and physiological problem. And this is compounded because 'obesity' is not a single condition. Medical science is still coming to grips with the causes and the ramifications and ways in which to treat it. Currently there are very few medical interventions that work. Telling people to eat less and exercise more is a gross oversimplification of what is a very complex condition. Telling a patient to do as such will fail in 99% of chances because you aren't addressing the true cause(s).

What you're claiming is the equivalent of saying all that people with depression need to do is "cheer up". In essence that's what they need to do. But the cause of the depression is far more complex.

[Badandy]

Unfortunately obesity is not that simple. Obesity is a complex psychological and physiological problem. And this is compounded because 'obesity' is not a single condition. Medical science is still coming to grips with the causes and the ramifications and ways in which to treat it. Currently there are very few medical interventions that work. Telling people to eat less and exercise more is a gross oversimplification of what is a very complex condition.

In some cases it's a physiological condition, but not most of the time. Do you think people's DNA all of a sudden mutated to cause an explosion of obesity in the last 30 years?

What you're claiming is the equivalent of saying all that people with depression need to do is "cheer up".

That's not what I'm claiming at all, and most of the times, it is not a complex condition. It's billed as a complex condition to justify staying that way. It's like smoking, but easier to quit.

Childhood Obesity, stating the obvious: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/7140.php

Simple explanations are usually right: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/childhood-obesity/DS00698/DSECTION=causes


Look at childhood obesity. Is there a complex problem there? Are most of the obese children you see depressed and suffering from a serious psychological condition? No, they don't understand the importance of excercise, haven't learned proper habits from their parents, and then grow up with those same values where they become, suprise, obese adults.

Believe me, I'm not trying to diminish the problems of those who are suffering from depression-related eating. But all research points to the causes of obesity as being not enough excercise and too much eating. Couple that with the fact that obesity was not nearly as common a couple decades ago (while humans undoubtedly were afflicted with similar psychological and physiological disorders), and you see that something is wrong and that it is fixable.

[Ugg]

In some cases it's a physiological condition, but not most of the time. Do you think people's DNA all of a sudden mutated to cause an explosion of obesity in the last 30 years?





I do agree with you that obesity is mostly self inflicted, however, children are the victims of their parents bad habits/ignorance/indulgence whatever and obese children become obese adults. Once someone reaches that tipping point, it's almost impossible to reverse to a normal weight.

To a certain degree, I think it's pointless to harp on obese adults. They're most likely not going to change. I do think that we need to recognize that obesity is a form of child abuse and take measures to stop it.

[Badandy]

I do agree with you that obesity is mostly self inflicted, however, children are the victims of their parents bad habits/ignorance/indulgence whatever and obese children become obese adults. Once someone reaches that tipping point, it's almost impossible to reverse to a normal weight.

To a certain degree, I think it's pointless to harp on obese adults. They're most likely not going to change. I do think that we need to recognize that obesity is a form of child abuse and take measures to stop it.

+1

It certaintly shouldn't be severely punishable (after all, the kids probably like eating whatever they want), but it does need to be recognized as a severe parenting mistake. But really, what could possibly be done about it?

About getting obese adults to change, there are thousands of stories of obese people getting their health under control and dropping tons of weight. It's very common, but what you won't find is a lot of stories of people who lost a lot of weight who didn't already want to. But then again, most everyone wants to, it's just a matter of getting them to the point where they can believe it's not a fruitless effort. That can be as little as a week or two into just trying to eat healthier and exercise.

[chrmjenkins]

That's not what I'm claiming at all, and most of the times, it is not a complex condition. It's billed as a complex condition to justify staying that way. It's like smoking, but easier to quit.


It is not like smoking. You don't need tobacco products for sustenance. You have no choice but to eat, so you are constantly faced with the dilemma, no matter what.

[Badandy]

It is not like smoking. You don't need tobacco products for sustenance. You have no choice but to eat, so you are constantly faced with the dilemma, no matter what.

But you can substitute in good foods instead of bad foods without decreasing how delicious it is. You can't do that with nicotine and tobacco.

I reallly think the most telling data are obesity rates in the past decades. Everyone claims it's so complicated and a product of addiction yet it wasn't a big problem until recently. No one was depressed forty years ago? No one had to cope with issues forty years ago? It's not society's fault, it's not (usually) a physiological problem, and it (usually) is not a psychological problem. It's laziness and bad habits.

[iGary]

But you can substitute in good foods instead of bad foods without decreasing how delicious it is. You can't do that with nicotine and tobacco.

I reallly think the most telling data are obesity rates in the past decades. Everyone claims it's so complicated and a product of addiction yet it wasn't a big problem until recently. No one was depressed forty years ago? No one had to cope with issues forty years ago? It's not society's fault, it's not (usually) a physiological problem, and it (usually) is not a psychological problem. It's laziness and bad habits.

What an amazingly simplistic and naive view of the world.

[leekohler]

What an amazingly simplistic and naive view of the world.

What's your take on it? I kind of have to agree with Badandy here. How can we blame obesity on "society"? Doesn't pop culture push images of thin people?

[chrmjenkins]

But you can substitute in good foods instead of bad foods without decreasing how delicious it is. You can't do that with nicotine and tobacco.

You weren't comparing people who are trying to quit or change their habits. You were comparing their dependence on those substances, saying they are the same. They are inherently different in both the nature of inception and the characteristics of indulgence. Many people begin smoking knowing full well of the negative consequences. Beginning to eat is never a cognizant decision, moreover, it has a natural built-in drive. You don't have to have ever eaten to experience hunger.

What's your take on it? I kind of have to agree with Badandy here. How can we blame obesity on "society"? Doesn't pop culture push images of thin people?

In the middle ages, in the times of lordships and paupers, obesity was a desirable state and a sign of wealth. Yet, many people were skinny because they were poor. Despite this projected public image, many people were the opposite. Is the reason for their skinniness not societal in nature? Moreover, "society" encompasses more than the bulk-psyche of a people. It also includes our habits and how we accomplish things in our daily lives. Technology has made it easier to do less and less physically, yet the adoption of new technology is relentlessly pursued and accepted by a majority of the society. The nature of humanity hasn't changed, but its inventions have enabled it to manifest in less than desirable ways.

[Badandy]

What's your take on it? I kind of have to agree with Badandy here. How can we blame obesity on "society"? Doesn't pop culture push images of thin people?

I'm interested why my statement provoked that kind of response as well. The human gene pool in America hasn't changed substantial in forty years. What else could it be? I said it was a combination of bad education and laziness.

You weren't comparing people who are trying to quit or change their habits. You were comparing their dependence on those substances, saying they are the same. They are inherently different in both the nature of inception and the characteristics of indulgence. Many people begin smoking knowing full well of the negative consequences. Beginning to eat is never a cognizant decision, moreover, it has a natural built-in drive. You don't have to have ever eaten to experience hunger.

I understand what you're saying, but what if there was another cigarette that would satiate your desire for nicotine, look just as cool, and make you healthier in the process. Is that something you might be interested in?

[iGary]

What's your take on it? I kind of have to agree with Badandy here. How can we blame obesity on "society"? Doesn't pop culture push images of thin people?

I don't think of labeling all fat people a result of "laziness and bad habits" is accurate. Most yes, but not all.

I was 210 when I was my fittest (running 30-40 miles a week and 4-6 marathons a year) and eating a reasonable diet. That weight is obese for my hieght (5' 10").

Where do laziness and bad habits fit in there?

[Badandy]

I don't think of labeling all fat people a result of "laziness and bad habits" is accurate. Most yes, but not all.

I was 210 when I was my fittest (running 30-40 miles a week and 4-6 marathons a year) and eating a reasonable diet. That weight is obese for my hieght (5' 10").

Where do laziness and bad habits fit in there?

I don't think of 210 pounds and 5'10" as obese, but that's besides the point. The point is that your general level of fitness was extremely high, and that's a healthy thing to do, no matter what weight it results in.

Were you really muscled?

In any case, the much more common explanation is that when you see someone who is obese, they probably aren't in the kind of shape you were in when you were running 50 miles per week. But if people would like to believe that most of the obese people we see are 50 mile per week runners and there's not a huge problem occuring that didn't exist forty years ago (despite people having the same genetic predispositions) then by all means, we can do that. BTW, iGary, I know you aren't insinuating that this is true, I'm just trying to drive home the point that there really is no other reason for climbing obesity rates other than improper education, bad habits, and laziness. The baseline of obese people who are obese because of their genetic makeup should stay constant over a forty year time period.

[leekohler]

I understand what you're saying, but what if there was another cigarette that would satiate your desire for nicotine, look just as cool, and make you healthier in the process. Is that something you might be interested in?

Bring it on, baby. :)

[chrmjenkins]

I understand what you're saying, but what if there was another cigarette that would satiate your desire for nicotine, look just as cool, and make you healthier in the process. Is that something you might be interested in?

There's two different scenarios. The first is that you're currently a smoker. If, by some miraculous occurrence, there came to be a cigarette that, on the whole was good for you, and still gave you nicotine, that would be a good alternative. Besides, it would probably be insanely expensive, meaning that some people would vie for the cheaper alternative, damn the risks, just as the current situation is.

However, if you were a non-smoker, this is kind of a silly question. Unless there were some inherently beneficial in the smoking process, then most certainly whatever this item is could be refined to a pill of some form to supplement one's diet, meaning they never have to smoke. The point is that smoking is purely a habit of choice. Eating is not.

[Shivetya]

You already do. I suppose you'd leave people in the street to die, filthy nasty people that they are.



Is it everyone you hate, or just certain people?

Oooh.. nice strawman there.... do you sing the song too?



Care to try again?

It is not like smoking. You don't need tobacco products for sustenance. You have no choice but to eat, so you are constantly faced with the dilemma, no matter what.

You do have a choice NOT to over eat, not to over consume. You came off perfectly as someone trying to excuse their excessive eating.

Its not your fault because its hard to deal with.


I understand what you're saying, but what if there was another cigarette that would satiate your desire for nicotine, look just as cool, and make you healthier in the process. Is that something you might be interested in?

Cigarettes look cool?

I would be very happy if they were outright banned, however I fully understand that hypocrisy is one of the traits of our government.

In my book, government health care payments should require no smoking, losing benefits after a DUI, and being required to eat right.

[Iscariot]

If there isn't an underlying medical condition going on (some of which are yet to be discovered, I imagine) there are psychological ones, if not both.

If you're speaking of a physical medical condition, there's not a lot of data to support that notion. Of the people who believe — or perhaps more accurately have been convinced — that they are suffering due to their "genetics" or "metabolism" almost none of them are, and there are very few diseases that can cause obesity. Most of the people who are convinced that they "eat well" or "not a lot" and "exercise" fall exactly into the caloric range you would expect of someone of their weight. If, however, you consider mental conditions to be medical in nature (and I do) then you have a much more compelling argument on your hands. There is more and more evidence that obesity and depression are linked in a very much vicious circle, in that depression can cause obesity, and obesity can cause depression (especially true of women).
Telling a patient to do as such will fail in 99% of chances because you aren't addressing the true cause(s).

I have to disagree. Telling a patient to eat less and exercise more may not work, but providing a support structure wherein the patient eats less and exercises more does work. I am highly skeptical of any "true cause" whose universal understanding is going to impact the rate of obesity.
To a certain degree, I think it's pointless to harp on obese adults. They're most likely not going to change. I do think that we need to recognize that obesity is a form of child abuse and take measures to stop it.

+1

I agree in concept but I struggle in determining how to implement such a concept. I think that perhaps the best way to go would be to reinstate a form of compulsory home economics in school at many different grade levels that teaches the value of nutrition, cooking, and a healthy lifestyle, while also demonstrating how to apply the skills learned in school to real life. It also vexes me how many students have fairly high levels of math comprehension, and yet can not apply it to an even rudimentary understanding of probability, statistics or logic.

--

Obesity isn't a problem in isolation, but I think it's a problem that you also have to be careful not to over-complicate. I don't know how many commercials, infomercials or newspaper and magazine advertisements I've seen that defer responsibility from the individual and place it onto genetics, medical conditions, society, even pollution. Couple that with the absolutely incredible amount of misinformation and flat-out falsehoods provided by fad diets, the celebrities on them (Oprah being a huge contributor to this), and the myriad of magazines at the check out line boasting the latest miracle cure for fat, and you get a society that suffers from two distinct problems; a people with no culture of eating, and no concept of food. If you take the emotionality out of it for a moment the bottom line really is that people need to eat less and exercise more, but without even a rudimentary social structure that actually enforces that (outside of ridicule and spite) what else could possibly be expected? Food itself has become incredibly overcomplicated and at the same time incredibly distilled, and the people lack even a basic understanding of nutrition — and are certainly nowhere near equipped enough to counter the misinformation they are bombarded with — in a society where a happy meal can tout itself as healthy in commercials because there's a piece of fruit shoved in there, and more meals come from microwaves than anywhere else.

[yg17]

You do have a choice NOT to over eat, not to over consume. You came off perfectly as someone trying to excuse their excessive eating.

Its not your fault because its hard to deal with.

It's not always over eating. Sometimes it's physical problems beyond their control. You can't judge without knowing their idividual lifestyle

[leekohler]

It's not always over eating. Sometimes it's physical problems beyond their control. You can't judge without knowing their idividual lifestyle

This is true. But let's face it, physical problems are the exception, not the rule.

[iGary]

Oooh.. nice strawman there.... do you sing the song too?



Care to try again?

Not a strawman. Care to answer the question?

So far, based on your commentary here you despise gays, poor people, fat people and smokers... just wondering if there is anyone you don't hate.

[leekohler]

Not a strawman. Care to answer the question?

So far, based on your commentary here you despise gays, poor people, fat people and smokers... just wondering if there is anyone you don't hate.

He obviously loves only himself. That's been apparent since he got here.

[Badandy]

It's not always over eating. Sometimes it's physical problems beyond their control. You can't judge without knowing their idividual lifestyle

That's just very rare. Read Iscariot's previous post, he's spot on for the causes of obesity. Several studies have emerged of those who have

A) Tried dieting
B) Think they're getting excercise
C) Think they're eating better
D) Convinced their metabolish is just slower or it's genetic

And they've found...their net calories are what you'd expect for someone their weight.

If you were to poll obese Americans and ask them what the primary contributor to their obesity actually was (let's say you give them two choices, either genetic predisposition or their eating/exercise habits) you'd end up with far more people picking genetic predisposition over the far more likely, peer-reviewed, science backed set of facts that it is not any physical abnormality. It's their lifestyle.

Just yesterday I was out eating with some co-workers. I had a bacon cheeseburger and fries to which several people said, "I wish I could do that, but you were blessed with a good metabolism" as if to say the hours of work I put into my fitness is some coincidence that didn't befall them. I invariably reply, "I also play basketball three hours per day and have a hard time walking afterwards because of physical exhaustion and muscle failure" but their ears are already switched off: I'm just lucky, they aren't.


EDIT: I'd also like to add that I share Iscariot's sentiment that the proliferation of "miracle diets" and "losing weight without doing work" is a huge cause of the current problem. There's information overload. It's like when a technologically illiterate person is trying to choose a phone. How the hell do they pick a phone with each manufacturer having different models with different functionalities? Some are likely to say the choice is too complicated and resign themselves to where they currently are...with their current phone. A basic understanding of physiology or fitness would go a long way towards getting people to cut through all the BS that's out there and just work at it. It's not easy to lose weight, but it's harder to gain it if you've changed your lifestyle to be more healthy.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

This is true. But let's face it, physical problems are the exception, not the rule.

Yeah, I'm getting really tired of people who keep bringing up the disease side of things. This is such an excuse, a disease that makes you fat is incredibly rare. However, obese people are often unhealthy and are more likely to become diseased with whatever makes you fatter. It's their own fault for getting diabetes or their gland issue, however then it's used as an excuse for being fat.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

I really think we can lay off all the "what about people with a medical condition?!" comments. The actual conditions are incredibly rare, someone with such a condition today is just as likely as someone with such a condition fifty years ago. Do you know how few obese people there were fifty years ago?

[leekohler]

EDIT: I'd also like to add that I share Iscariot's sentiment that the proliferation of "miracle diets" and "losing weight without doing work" is a huge cause of the current problem. There's information overload. It's like when a technologically illiterate person is trying to choose a phone. How the hell do they pick a phone with each manufacturer having different models with different functionalities? Some are likely to say the choice is too complicated and resign themselves to where they currently are...with their current phone. A basic understanding of physiology or fitness would go a long way towards getting people to cut through all the BS that's out there and just work at it. It's not easy to lose weight, but it's harder to gain it if you've changed your lifestyle to be more healthy.

My parents fall into this trap. There is no "miracle diet". There is no "secret". It's very simple- eat right and exercise. I realize this is easier said than done. But I really get tired of my parents asking me how I stay in shape. I've told them a million times what they need to do. It's not my fault they don't do it.

[chrmjenkins]

You do have a choice NOT to over eat, not to over consume.

This is implicit in the discussion. Over-consuming is only part of it, though. It also matters what you consume, which is actually what I've been getting at.

You came off perfectly as someone trying to excuse their excessive eating.

Its not your fault because its hard to deal with.

Again, I would argue this topic is filled with more people so anxious to pinpoint people playing than the victim than people are actually trying to play it. No one is excusing obesity, we're explaining the various causes of it. If you want to actually solve a problem, you have to understand it. Calling people lazy, ignorant, over-indulgent and too eager to blame their current state on a disease beyond their control is, surprisingly, not a good way to address and treat the issue. I'm sorry if that comes as a shock.

[iGary]

My parents fall into this trap. There is no "miracle diet". There is no "secret". It's very simple- eat right and exercise. I realize this is easier said than done. But I really get tired of my parents asking me how I stay in shape. I've told them a million times what they need to do. It's not my fault they don't do it.

Just as easy as quitting smoking, right? ;) :p

[Gelfin]

I understand what you're saying, but what if there was another cigarette that would satiate your desire for nicotine, look just as cool, and make you healthier in the process. Is that something you might be interested in?

Bring it on, baby. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV4yK-26smM

[LizKat]

I'm interested why my statement provoked that kind of response as well. The human gene pool in America hasn't changed substantial in forty years. What else could it be? I said it was a combination of bad education and laziness.

There seems to be a biochemical component in there also. You can start using more and more salt on stuff if you're not aware that your body develops a tolerance for it. It takes more salt, over time, for one to get that same salty taste one may prefer. This amounts to "bad education" of the body itself just via the natural reaction of the body to a substance that can be harmful in high dosage. People who don't cook with a lot of salt and who rarely salt food at the table can be shocked by how salty various processed and commercially prepared foods taste. And, people who do routinely eat lots of salted foods are more likely to consume much more than the designated "one serving" amount of a very salty food. People like me who don't salt stuff really can eat just one Lay's potato chip... as long as I don't eat them often!

The same thing happens with "cravings" for fatty and for highly sugared foods. If you don't eat them for awhile, your body sort of forgets them. I am perfectly happy today with a Granny Smith apple or a couple of carrot sticks, as opposed to french fries and a milkshake. That didn't happen overnight and was accidental, i.e. when I gave up my city place then I lived in an area where I'd have to drive 30 miles round trip to get fast food. It just faded, first from my plate and then from my palate. My body got re-educated. It was painless, but probably only because I was looking at a 30 mile drive, not a two-minute walk, to get more of what I definitely used to crave. I do remember thinking a few times "God! why don't they build a burger king in this godforsaken place." (duh.. because it's in a godforsaken place).

Bottom line, you are what you eat in more ways than one. What you eat gradually guides your body to tell you "more of that" as your next choice. People who don't or can't or won't prepare healthy foods for their kids are really dooming them to eat bad food for the rest of their lives, unless other education and access to better food intervene.


I understand what you're saying, but what if there was another cigarette that would satiate your desire for nicotine, look just as cool, and make you healthier in the process. Is that something you might be interested in?

I quit smoking over nine years ago. For the 4th or 5th time. It was really hard to stay stopped before, a couple times for almost 2 years, and I don't know why the addiction was lifted when it was, but it definitely seemed an epiphany of some sort. Anyway if someone brought me your hypothetical cigarette today, I might still be all over it (once I had determined the facts were as you state in your what-if proposal).

[Ugg]

I agree in concept but I struggle in determining how to implement such a concept. I think that perhaps the best way to go would be to reinstate a form of compulsory home economics in school at many different grade levels that teaches the value of nutrition, cooking, and a healthy lifestyle, while also demonstrating how to apply the skills learned in school to real life.


Home Ec was started to ensure that women cooked nutritious meals for their families. In the 1970s it segued into a way of getting boys to be interested in preparing food. Why can't it now become a means of getting kids solid information about food?

Jamie Oliver has met with mixed success in his attempt to get British kids to eat properly at school. I believe the Sun ran a few photos of grossly obese mothers thrusting enormous bags of junk food through the school yard railings for their grossly obese children who cried that they were being starved in school.

In a way, it's sort of a chicken and an egg approach.

Peter Mayle in his books about Provence, said that as soon as infants are weaned, they begin to eat real pureed food, not simply bland mashed up veggies and pureed, hormone fed beef. The lunch menus at daycare read like those of a two star restaurant.

Schools need to start preparing real food, not canned and over processed commodity BS. They need to start school gardens, let kids taste what they grow and most importantly, bring back physical education.

As the world grows more urbanized, more kids are absolutely clueless about the environment outside the concrete jungle which has been made even more confining by Fear Inc.

[leekohler]

Just as easy as quitting smoking, right? ;) :p

The difference is that I don't sit around and complain about it. Nor do I blame society or anything else. It's my issue that I own and deal with in my own way.

And having struggled with weight issues myself, weight issues are far easier to deal with. But I can only speak for myself.

[SydneyDev]

I have no problem with fat people. If they like food and can afford to buy a lot of it, then lucky them.

If the weight is a symptom of mental illness then of-course they should seek treatment, but I'm sure there are people who just like food a lot. And for them, if eating makes them happy then what right to I have to stop them.

[chrmjenkins]

Home Ec was started to ensure that women cooked nutritious meals for their families. In the 1970s it segued into a way of getting boys to be interested in preparing food. Why can't it now become a means of getting kids solid information about food?

*snip*

This man speaks the truth. Physical education, nutrition education, (sex ed too for that matter) and kick the junk foods out of schools. If we want to create good citizens, they have to know how to take care of themselves beyond financial sustenance.

[Capt Crunch]

I have no problem with fat people. If they like food and can afford to buy a lot of it, then lucky them.

If the weight is a symptom of mental illness then of-course they should seek treatment, but I'm sure there are people who just like food a lot. And for them, if eating makes them happy then what right to I have to stop them.

I don't think there are many people arguing to "stop" them. I think people are generally displaying a lack of sympathy to fat people who complain about their "condition."

[charlesbronsen]

what erks me is when the obese people say "wow, your lucky to be so skinny-must have fast metabolism, good genes"...etc. Yet they are the ones eating fries and fast food to their hearts content, or discontent and playing the blame game. My Dads side of the family is quite obese so its in my genes too- but I see that as motivation.

[abijnk]

You came off perfectly as someone trying to excuse their excessive eating.

That's him in the picture I posted on the first page, so clearly he has no overeating to excuse.

I want to know why it is that whenever a person, such as myself, who is obese starts to discuss the matter it is automatically assumed that I am making excuses for my weight or trying to blame it on society? That couldn't be further from the truth. I know why I am overweight, I'm not stupid.

What people need to understand, and what I have been trying to point out, is how complex of an issue it is. Everyone who is overweight, with very very few exceptions, is that way because their caloric intake is higher than caloric output. Its a very simple equation. What is not simple are the motivating factors behind the equation.

While it is true that there are not too many diseases that will make you overweight, there are tons of biological factors that leave you either predisposed to gaining weight easily or make it easier to gain weight than your so-called "average" person. These are the same types of issues that make it difficult to gain weight for some people. That isn't an excuse for being overweight, but it has to be explored and considered in the solution on an individual basis. Likewise, the mental aspects of weight need to be explored as well. Is the person in question using food as a comfort mechanism? If yes, then that needs to be addressed.

Just as the equation for gaining weight is simple, the equation for losing weight is simple as well. It is a very basic concept that most everyone understand: take in less than you put out. Conforming to this equation will always result in weight loss, yes, that part is simple. However, getting to that step is not so simple.

The depression analogy is a very good one. You wouldn't tell a person who is severely depressed to just "get over it." Likewise, you can't just tell a person whose obesity is caused by mental instabilities to just "get over it."

There are people who make excuses for being fat and pass it off as "not their problem." But putting everone in that category is really narrow and does nothing to help the situation. It amazes me the amount of hatred shown towards over weight people, as if we have done something to you as a skinny person. Its a little silly really.

On a different note, I agree with Ugg about the school angle. Most kids are already required to take health classes at some point, why can't it be incorporated in there (in fact, in my high school it was, they taught us how to read nutrition labels and things like that).

Eating habits form pretty early on, and at a point where the child is completely dependent on their parent to eat. Seeing overweight children is completely inexcusable.

[kavika411]

I want to know why it is that whenever a person, such as myself, who is obese starts to discuss the matter it is automatically assumed that I am making excuses for my weight or trying to blame it on society? That couldn't be further from the truth. I know why I am overweight, I'm not stupid.

Just want to say I admire you for putting your story, picture, etc. out there for dissection in such a personal thread. By contrast, many of us don't want to offer more than the state we live in so as to allow for the least amount of personal intrusion and exposure. Good luck.

[anjinha]

I agree that for most cases obesity is caused by overeating, not by a medical condition or genetics. And each obese person has the ability to change that.

But, it's not as easy as it sounds. Food addiction is real and it's as hard to fight as any other addiction out there with one big difference: with any substance abuse problem you stop consuming and your goal is to never consume that substance (alcohol, drugs) again. How does that work with food? With food it's the equivalent of telling an alcoholic he can drink but only one glass of wine per day. How many alcoholics would fall off the wagon doing that?

[OutThere]

There's a lot of discussion here that misses an international perspective on the situation: Americans are more than twice as likely to be overweight or obese than most western European countries (the UK stands out). Whatever your view on BMI, more than 60% of Americans fall into the overweight or obese category, whereas only about 30% of French people do. Where does this difference come from?

Differences in culture I talked about above to be sure, but many people in this thread are arguing about the psychological issues that cause/lead to/perpetuate obesity....what then, is different in Europe than in the US?

[anjinha]

There's a lot of discussion here that misses an international perspective on the situation: Americans are more than twice as likely to be overweight or obese than most western European countries (the UK stands out). Whatever your view on BMI, more than 60% of Americans fall into the overweight or obese category, whereas only about 30% of French people do. Where does this difference come from?

Differences in culture I talked about above to be sure, but many people in this thread are arguing about the psychological issues that cause/lead to/perpetuate obesity....what then, is different in Europe than in the US?

I think environment is a big part of it.

My sister is the healthiest person you can imagine. She loves healthy food, vegetarian food and she is extremely active. But when she lived in the U.S. for a year she gained weight. She explained how all her friends always went to McDonalds so it was hard for her to go somewhere else.

[leekohler]

I agree that for most cases obesity is caused by overeating, not by a medical condition or genetics. And each obese person has the ability to change that.

But, it's not as easy as it sounds. Food addiction is real and it's as hard to fight as any other addiction out there with one big difference: with any substance abuse problem you stop consuming and your goal is to never consume that substance (alcohol, drugs) again. How does that work with food? With food it's the equivalent of telling an alcoholic he can drink but only one glass of wine per day. How many alcoholics would fall off the wagon doing that?

Speaking as someone coming from the opposite side (I have an extremely difficult time keeping weight on), I can tell you that it has to be a total lifestyle change. You have to change the way you think about food and exercise. It's not easy. In my mid-20's people thought I had AIDS I was so thin (yes, people would ask me to my face)- it was awful. It took me years and a lot of hard work and changing my diet to get to a healthy weight. Now- I panic if I go out of town and can't find a gym. I will lose at least 5-10 pounds in 7 days if I don't go- that's even with eating properly.

[anjinha]

Speaking as someone coming from the opposite side (I have an extremely difficult time keeping weight on), I can tell you that it has to be a total lifestyle change. You have to change the way you think about food and exercise. It's not easy. In my mid-20's people thought I had AIDS I was so thin (yes, people would ask me to my face)- it was awful. It took me years and a lot of hard work and changing my diet to get to a healthy weight.

Exactly. The thing is there's a lot of bad information out there. This truly is something that should be taught at school.

[Shivetya]

Not a strawman. Care to answer the question?

So far, based on your commentary here you despise gays, poor people, fat people and smokers... just wondering if there is anyone you don't hate.

Your comment was

Originally Posted by iGary View Post
You already do. I suppose you'd leave people in the street to die, filthy nasty people that they are.

Strawman.


I don't despise poor people. I was quite poor after leaving the military in the late 80s. Yet I did what I had to do. I took any job I could get and worked it as best I could. I didn't bemoan the low pay I used it as incentive to work harder and improve myself so I could have a better jobs. I helped and was helped by friends and family. I didn't take government handouts, didn't demand rights that no one has, and I certainly didn't bemoan my place in life.

I used to smoke a pack or more day back when, I got past that. Relapsed and quit again. Its not fun. I still date women who smoke on occasion and have friends who do. The difference in these people compared to some others is that all are generally hard working people of good character. I have some seriously obese friends but I won't sit around and be part of their pity party. Most of them know they put themselves into the position they are and some don't truly care. I don't know of any who blame it on genetics or such, they accept the blame.

That is the real key, I associate with people who accept responsibility for their actions, both good and bad. People who work and work hard for a living. Some have taken multiple lower paying jobs when the big job was lost. These people don't sit on their ass whining how life isn't fair, they go out and make it happen. They don't see the government as a solution to their woes, they don't look favorably at having someone else's effort (Read income) redistributed them because they didn't try.

I like people who try.

[abijnk]

There's a lot of discussion here that misses an international perspective on the situation: Americans are more than twice as likely to be overweight or obese than most western European countries (the UK stands out). Whatever your view on BMI, more than 60% of Americans fall into the overweight or obese category, whereas only about 30% of French people do. Where does this difference come from?

Differences in culture I talked about above to be sure, but many people in this thread are arguing about the psychological issues that cause/lead to/perpetuate obesity....what then, is different in Europe than in the US?

That's an interesting angle. I would agree that is more of a culture thing than anything else. Also, are there foreign fast food chains? The whole junk food movement appears to be an American phenomenon, but then again I don't know much about other cultures. :o

Your comment was



Strawman.


I don't despise poor people. I was quite poor after leaving the military in the late 80s. Yet I did what I had to do. I took any job I could get and worked it as best I could. I didn't bemoan the low pay I used it as incentive to work harder and improve myself so I could have a better jobs. I helped and was helped by friends and family. I didn't take government handouts, didn't demand rights that no one has, and I certainly didn't bemoan my place in life.

I used to smoke a pack or more day back when, I got past that. Relapsed and quit again. Its not fun. I still date women who smoke on occasion and have friends who do. The difference in these people compared to some others is that all are generally hard working people of good character. I have some seriously obese friends but I won't sit around and be part of their pity party. Most of them know they put themselves into the position they are and some don't truly care. I don't know of any who blame it on genetics or such, they accept the blame.

That is the real key, I associate with people who accept responsibility for their actions, both good and bad. People who work and work hard for a living. Some have taken multiple lower paying jobs when the big job was lost. These people don't sit on their ass whining how life isn't fair, they go out and make it happen. They don't see the government as a solution to their woes, they don't look favorably at having someone else's effort (Read income) redistributed them because they didn't try.

I like people who try.

How is this relevant to the thread? Do you mean to imply that obese people are not hard working? I'm completely lost. :confused:

[Don't panic]

I agree that for most cases obesity is caused by overeating, not by a medical condition or genetics. And each obese person has the ability to change that.

But, it's not as easy as it sounds. Food addiction is real and it's as hard to fight as any other addiction out there with one big difference: with any substance abuse problem you stop consuming and your goal is to never consume that substance (alcohol, drugs) again. How does that work with food? With food it's the equivalent of telling an alcoholic he can drink but only one glass of wine per day. How many alcoholics would fall off the wagon doing that?

it's a good point, but even with alcohol and cigarettes, it's not an absolute requirement to quit completely, it's just easier that way.
drinking in moderation is perfectly healthy and the majority of people do just that. how many people were 'technically' alcoholics for some periods during their college years? most of them adjust their lifestyle later on and become moderate drinkers.
it's only the extreme alcoholics that need some sort of intervention/therapy just like for the majority of overweight/moderately obese people is mostly a matter of eating habits and lifestyle, which can be changed if there is the will to do it. In addition, in the case of food is not simply a question of quantity, but of quality and other behaviours (like exercise) that can counteract the effect of high caloric intake.
I totally agree that it is in large part a question of culture and education.

what i find a little disturbing is the big push to 'normalize' obesity and make it seem just a 'normal' variable, like hair color.
it isn't. it's a pathological condition which shouldn't be encouraged by society.
i am not looking forward to a time where being 300 pounds is 'normal' because "it's in 50th percentile"

[skunk]

Abi, I'd like to add my appreciation of your courage in putting your own example and experience on the table. I know what a vicious cycle can be set up between overeating and depression and denial. It ain't just a river in Africa.

Never give up.

[leekohler]

Exactly. The thing is there's a lot of bad information out there. This truly is something that should be taught at school.

I couldn't agree more. It's a shame that it isn't.

[Ugg]

That's an interesting angle. I would agree that is more of a culture thing than anything else. Also, are there foreign fast food chains? The whole junk food movement appears to be an American phenomenon, but then again I don't know much about other cultures. :o


Every country has its own fast food. Some of it is truly repulsive. Beans on toast for breakfast? Blech!!!

The French Paradox has been mulled over for a long, long time. They eat lots of fat, drink lots of wine, smoke more than most.

They also eat lots of fresh, not canned vegetables, many of which most Americans will have never heard of. take lots of time for their meal, eat smaller portions, and truly enjoy what they're eating.

When's the last time you truly enjoyed a meal? I'm not talking about craving a specialty pizza or whatever, but truly enjoyed a meal with friends or family?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, most American food is so bland so as to appeal to everyone and be rejected by nobody. Few Americans will admit to enjoying their food. It goes against the Puritan ethic. It also dovetails with the ultimate American ethic, quantity over quality.

[abijnk]

what i find a little disturbing is the big push to 'normalize' obesity and make it seem just a 'normal' variable, like hair color.
it isn't. it's a pathological condition which shouldn't be encouraged by society.
i am not looking forward to a time where being 300 pounds is 'normal' because "it's in 50th percentile"

It is indeed a disturbing idea that obesity would become normal. Just because most people might become over weight doesn't mean that it should ever be seen as acceptable. I highly doubt our bodies will ever adapt to carrying excess weight, it just too taxing and our bodies weren't... I almost want to say designed, but that's a whole different discussion. :p Nevertheless, our bodies can't cope effectively with that much excess weight.

Thanks for a little perspective Ugg, I truly am quite ignorant to most other cultures. I remember when me and my brothers were younger we always sat down for meals with the family, and I was never overweight as a youngster. Coincidence? I tend to think not.

Also, thanks to skunk and others for your kind words.

[.Andy]

I have to disagree. Telling a patient to eat less and exercise more may not work
Yeah it doesn't. Not in the slightest. Because people already know this. Unfortunately they can't which is something that is very difficult to address.

but providing a support structure wherein the patient eats less and exercises more does work.
Unfortunately this doesn't work either in the long term. It may have effects in the short term but we're very poor at maintaining long term, significant weight loss in anyone. Intensive long term treatment programs are very expensive and people soon lose their enthusiasm for them. Medically it's very hard to have instigate a long term change in someone's behaviour in this regard. But this is not to say that it doesn't work in some people. There's a few anecdotes in this thread already. Unfortunately in the majority it doesn't (which is no reason why people shouldn't seek their doctors help with weight loss). This is why extrapolating an anecdote to everyone is an oversimplification of the issue.

I am highly skeptical of any "true cause" whose universal understanding is going to impact the rate of obesity.
As I said in my post, obesity is not a single condition. There isn't a universal cause for all obesity that will be cracked. It's a complex interplay of both psychological and physiological factors. And we don't fully understand it.

But in some cases physiological "true causes" have been found for conditions like hypothyroidism, corticosteroid excess, and polycystic kidneys etc. The psychological association with mental illness such as depression is well known. But they are only the tip of the iceberg. There's much more to learn about obesity and is a field of much research.

In some cases it's a physiological condition, but not most of the time. Do you think people's DNA all of a sudden mutated to cause an explosion of obesity in the last 30 years?
Please read the post you are replying to.
Unfortunately obesity is not that simple. Obesity is a complex psychological and physiological problem. And this is compounded because 'obesity' is not a single condition.

[Capt Crunch]

If obesity if a medical mental condition that cannot be helped, why is it on the rise? It's not like normal mental health conditions which are on the rise because of greater diagnosis, obesity is easily measured.

Even better, why is it more prevalent in America? Is there something in the water that makes Americans more susceptible to not being able to stop themselves from wolfing down twinkies?

[Badandy]

Please read the post you are replying to.

I did, and that was the point. If we can throw out significant differences in the gene pool as the cause for obesity (which we can because it hasn't changed all that much in forty years), then we're left with what I quoted: "complex psychological and physiological problems." Why has eating become a "complex psychological and physiological problem" when it wasn't forty years ago? My vote? Bad habits, insufficient education, and laziness.

[.Andy]

If obesity if a medical mental condition that cannot be helped, why is it on the rise?
It's multifactorial (and not just mental) and from my understanding it is something medical science would dearly love to know. The rates of developing obesity are very high and it's worrying. For instance the risk of becoming overweight/obese may be as high as 1 in 2 Americans;

Estimated Risks for Developing Obesity in the Framingham Heart Study

Ramachandran S. Vasan, MD; Michael J. Pencina, PhD; Mark Cobain, PhD; Matthew S. Freiberg, MD; and Ralph B. D'Agostino, PhD
4 October 2005 | Volume 143 Issue 7 | Pages 473-480
http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/143/7/473

Background: The short- and long-term risks for developing overweight or obesity are unknown.

Conclusions: The long-term risks for overweight or more or obesity exceeded 50% and 25%, respectively, indicating a large public health burden. These estimates suggest that the future burden of obesity-associated diseases may be substantial.

It's not like normal mental health conditions which are on the rise because of greater diagnosis, obesity is easily measured.
No but as was posted earlier, the link between obesity and issues such as mental health conditions is well know. So if mental illness goes up, so will obesity. However obesity isn't down to a single problem such as this.

Even better, why is it more prevalent in America? Is there something in the water that makes Americans more susceptible to not being able to stop themselves from wolfing down twinkies?
Again I'm not sure anyone knows. There was a great study a few years ago (also with the Framingham cohort from the paper above) which showed that people's weight around you affects your perception of normal and acceptable. Thus is you had overweight friends your perception of what is normal and your risk of becoming overweight yourself changed significantly.


http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/4/370
Background The prevalence of obesity has increased substantially over the past 30 years. We performed a quantitative analysis of the nature and extent of the person-to-person spread of obesity as a possible factor contributing to the obesity epidemic.

Methods We evaluated a densely interconnected social network of 12,067 people assessed repeatedly from 1971 to 2003 as part of the Framingham Heart Study. The body-mass index was available for all subjects. We used longitudinal statistical models to examine whether weight gain in one person was associated with weight gain in his or her friends, siblings, spouse, and neighbors.

Results Discernible clusters of obese persons (body-mass index [the weight in kilograms divided by the square of the height in meters], 30) were present in the network at all time points, and the clusters extended to three degrees of separation. These clusters did not appear to be solely attributable to the selective formation of social ties among obese persons. A person's chances of becoming obese increased by 57% (95% confidence interval [CI], 6 to 123) if he or she had a friend who became obese in a given interval. Among pairs of adult siblings, if one sibling became obese, the chance that the other would become obese increased by 40% (95% CI, 21 to 60). If one spouse became obese, the likelihood that the other spouse would become obese increased by 37% (95% CI, 7 to 73). These effects were not seen among neighbors in the immediate geographic location. Persons of the same sex had relatively greater influence on each other than those of the opposite sex. The spread of smoking cessation did not account for the spread of obesity in the network.

Conclusions Network phenomena appear to be relevant to the biologic and behavioral trait of obesity, and obesity appears to spread through social ties. These findings have implications for clinical and public health interventions.

I did, and that was the point. If we can throw out significant differences in the gene pool as the cause for obesity
It doesn't have to be a genetic disorder (although this has been proven for some rare conditions). The physiology of your body changes and adapts to higher rates of caloric intake. For instance there's evidence that your body will set a satiety level around the time you are 20. Therefore eating habits become ingrained around the time people are at their most physically active. Which of course can be disastrous as people inevitably become more sedentary as they age.

Why has eating become a "complex psychological and physiological problem" when it wasn't forty years ago?
It was. We just didn't know as much as we do now.

My vote? Bad habits, insufficient education, and laziness.
Which are undoubtedly part of it. But as you said it's just a "vote" which is different from actual scientific evidence. And even the factors you point out in your vote are incredibly complex to address. Obesity seems like a simple problem but once you get into the research it's very difficult.

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Gah. People need to realize one very simple fact. For the most part if you exercise more you'll be not only physically more healthy, but emotionally and mentally. Depression is on the rise? Go for a bike ride. Getting fat? Go for a bike ride? Losing all your friends? Eat some carrots and hop on the treadmill.

[Don't panic]

Eat some carrots and hop on the treadmill.

the power of carrots cannot be overestimated.

[Badandy]

It was. We just didn't know as much as we do now.



Well no, it apparently wasn't if obesity rates were so much lower before than they are now. If incidences of mental problems have stayed relatively level, and instances of rare physical problems have stayed level, what else is there to conclude besides poor education and laziness?

[Ugg]

Well no, it apparently wasn't if obesity rates were so much lower before than they are now. If incidences of mental problems have stayed relatively level, and instances of rare physical problems have stayed level, what else is there to conclude besides poor education and laziness?

Is it a coincidence that the obesity epidemic began after WWII when chemicals began to saturate our food? I don't think so.

[.Andy]

Well no, it apparently wasn't if obesity rates were so much lower before than they are now. If incidences of mental problems have stayed relatively level, and instances of rare physical problems have stayed level, what else is there to conclude besides poor education and laziness?
Perhaps I've not made myself clear. Weight is due to a complex interaction of a number of factors both psychological and physiological in the context of society. You can't point out simplistic things like education (we've got better nutritional education than ever before) and laziness (which is rather subjective - increased weight for example can be linked to working excessive hours with not enough exercise) as reasons to explain the current trends. It's an oversimplification and isn't backed up by evidence. Weight is a very complex issue which medical science doesn't fully understand. And stigmatising the issue by labelling people who are overweight as "poorly educated" and "lazy" is entirely unhelpful.

Is it a coincidence that the obesity epidemic began after WWII when chemicals began to saturate our food? I don't think so.
Food is made out of "chemicals".

The ready availability of high-calorie foods and an increase in wealth throughout western societies has a better correlation than amorphous "chemicals".

[Iscariot]

Unfortunately this doesn't work either in the long term. It may have effects in the short term but we're very poor at maintaining long term, significant weight loss in anyone.

By the power of Greyskull, I knew it! I always wondered how you always seemed to be one step ahead, but this just confirms it; you can see the future. Otherwise, how would you have access to peer-reviewed long-term studies of a relatively new problem? Are you a wizard from a time before time, or a traveler from the future?
As I said in my post, obesity is not a single condition.

This is a straw man. A problem with complex factors does not necessitate a complex solution anymore than a simple solution necessitates a simple problem. Correctly identifying that people are going to need to eat less and exercise more does not in any way mean that the problem is devoid of complicating factors and is a simple case of personal responsibility. As I clearly stated, a support structure of some kind is going to be necessary for effective treatment, and that support structure may vary from comprehensive education in schools to school breakfast programs to the diagnosis and treatment of psychological or medical conditions to changes in food subsidization to greater access to medical care. However, regardless of how that support is realized, the patients are still going to need to eat less and exercise more to lose weight.
Which of course can be disastrous as people inevitably become more sedentary as they age.

What is the biological imperative for this being inevitable?

[abijnk]

Gah. People need to realize one very simple fact. For the most part if you exercise more you'll be not only physically more healthy, but emotionally and mentally. Depression is on the rise? Go for a bike ride. Getting fat? Go for a bike ride? Losing all your friends? Eat some carrots and hop on the treadmill.

Yes, it is a fact. No one is denying that. What you seem to be missing is that there are situations in which people might be able to make the connection, but not act on it. By this point in the thread, if after reading all the posts you don't understand that, then I really don't know what more can be said to change your viewpoint. Yes, the cause (eating too much, moving too little) and the solution (doing the opposite of the cause) are simple on the surface, but the motivating factors behind these simple truths are not at all simple.

[.Andy]

By the power of Greyskull, I knew it! I always wondered how you always seemed to be one step ahead, but this just confirms it; you can see the future. Otherwise, how would you have access to peer-reviewed long-term studies of a relatively new problem? Are you a wizard from a time before time, or a traveler from the future?
No power to see the future. There has been much research done into weight loss programs of all types for decades. With few exceptions they have all returned modest or disappointing results. Obesity isn't a new clinical problem. It's just a greater problem than it has been in the past. The majority of interventions barely maintain weight loss beyond 5 years.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/reprint/346/8/591.pdf
Although 29 percent of the men in the United States and 44 percent of the women describe themselves as trying to lose weight, only about 20 percent report restricting caloric intake and increasing physical activity simultaneously, despite recommendations indicating that this combination is effective.

Many studies demonstrate that obese adults can lose about 0.5 kg per week by decreasing their daily intake to 500 to 1000 kcal below the caloric intake required for the maintenance of their current weight. More severe caloric restriction, with the use of diets that are very low in calories, increases the rapidity of weight loss but not the rate of long-term success in maintaining a reduced weight. Although adding exercise to caloric restriction minimally increases weightloss during the acute phase of weight loss, it appears to be the component of treatment that is most likely to promote long-term maintenance of a reduced weight.

Behavioral treatments help obese persons to develop adaptive thinking, eating, and exercise habits that enable them to decrease their weight and avoid regaining weight. Persons who combine caloric restriction and exercise with behavioral treatment may expect to lose about 5 to 10 percent of preintervention body weight over a period of four to six months. Although patients often perceive this “small” weight loss as insufficient, it suffices to improve many obesity-related conditions.

Unfortunately, improvements are not sustained if weight is regained; and for the vast majority of persons, weight loss is followed by a slow, inexorable climb to the preintervention body weight — or even higher.

This is a straw man. A problem with complex factors does not necessitate a complex solution anymore than a simple solution necessitates a simple problem. Correctly identifying that people are going to need to eat less and exercise more does not in any way mean that the problem is devoid of complicating factors and is a simple case of personal responsibility.
The problem with this reasoning is that there is absolutely no evidence that identifying that people need to eat less and exercise more is productive at reducing people's weight at all. People already know this. It's the how that's the problem.

Here's a good summary of the current state of medicine from an obesity textbook review in the NEJM;
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/reprint/357/24/2526.pdf
Is obesity a treatable disease? The short answer is no. Clinicians who have been in practice for more than 20 years are aware of the facts. Despite the lip service that has been paid to healthful lifestyles, people of all ages, geographic origins, and nationalities have been steadily increasing their girth. Data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) (www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/ad/ad347.pdf) show that from 1960 to 2002 the average weight of men in the United States increased by nearly 24 lb, resulting in an increase in the average body-mass index (the weight in kilograms divided by the square of the height in meters) from 25.1 to 27.8.

Similar increases have occurred among women. The largest increase has been among the ranks of the obese and extremely obese. Obesity is an appropriate target for intervention, and one would have thought that almost any weapon would help to make us a worthy opponent of the enemy. But clinicians have been humbled by obesity. Each new inroad researchers have made into understanding the mechanism of obesity appears to be met with yet another battalion in the enemy’s army. Our efforts to manage obesity have been soundly defeated.


As I clearly stated, a support structure of some kind is going to be necessary for effective treatment, and that support structure may vary from comprehensive education in schools to school breakfast programs to the diagnosis and treatment of mental or medical conditions to changes in food subsidization to greater access to medical care.
At his stage however all you have here is a hypothesis. Such intervention has worked in the short-term on a small scale in places like France (this (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/reprint/360/9/923.pdf) is a good editorial review on the matter). However maintaining such an effect long term is a much harder. We've nothing at our disposal that achieves this. The other problem you have is the cost and time involved in such an initiative. As people in this thread have demonstrated (yourself included) being overweight is seen and stigmatised in society as nothing more than an issue of personal responsibility. When in fact approaching it as a public health initiative (as you suggest here) would likely have far more success. However as soon as public funds are mentioned to address the issue the media and individuals jump on it as "your tax money for the fat" or something similarly petulant. People just don't go for it.

However, regardless of how that support is realized, the patients are still going to need to eat less and exercise more to lose weight.
Which is again an oversimplification. How this is reasonably achieved is the problem. A solution to the problem has to be practical to be of any benefit. Again it's akin to saying that all depressed people need to do is cheer up. It's indeed what is required. Determining how to do it is the question. And there's more strings to the bow than the two you present here. There's plenty of scope for pharmacotherapy and bariatric surgery in the solution.

What is the biological imperative for this being inevitable?
There is no biological imperative. However in western society as people take on full time employment, raising children, etc the amount of physical exercise they do decreases. It certainly doesn't have to be that way. But that's reality.

[NT1440]

I see fatties the same way.


Amazing how we will accept the one over the other. I will date a women who smokes sooner than one who is very overweight. I can see around the smoking, I do not let anyone smoke in my car or house, and but I see it as no different than drinking.

I cannot see around gross amounts of weight. Sorry, just cannot do it. It isn't hard to have a date not smoke while we are out, it isn't possible for a fattie to not be ... fat

I dont actually see smokers to be digusting, I was just pointing out the disgusting judgementality of many people in this thread.

[Iscariot]

No power to see the future. There has been much research done into weight loss programs of all types for decades. With few exceptions they have all returned modest or disappointing results. Obesity isn't a new clinical problem. It's just a greater problem than it has been in the past. The majority of interventions barely maintain weight loss beyond 5 years.

All the study you posted proves is that a very significant number of people fail to even meet the basic steps for weight loss; something that should be obvious given the scope of the problem. If people were successful at losing weight on their own, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'm not proposing "lol noob man up and go 2 gym".
The problem with this reasoning is that there is absolutely no evidence that identifying that people need to eat less and exercise more is productive at reducing people's weight at all. People already know this.

No they don't, .Andy. The sheer amount of misinformation that people are bombarded with on a daily basis ensures this. Take a survey of the average person with the question "what is a calorie" and you will be shocked by the number of people who are unable to answer even such a simple question (according to womenrepublic.co.uk, only 10% of people surveyed were able to adequately answer). Moreover, people are unaware of their daily caloric requirements, lack the tools to understand serving sizes, and are unable to estimate calories in servings. The public at large does have a problem understanding this.
At his stage however all you have here is a hypothesis. Such intervention has worked in the short-term on a small scale in places like France (this (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/reprint/360/9/923.pdf) is a good editorial review on the matter). However maintaining such an effect long term is a much harder.

I was not aware that I was giving the impression that the solution was easy.
We've nothing at our disposal that achieves this.

I agree, which is why I am advocating change.
When in fact approaching it as a public health initiative (as you suggest here) would likely have far more success. However as soon as public funds are mentioned to address the issue the media and individuals jump on it as "your tax money for the fat" or something similarly petulant. People just don't go for it.

I am not those people. I have shelled out thousands of dollars for education and thousands of hours of my time to contribute to fighting obesity and promoting health and fitness; I am putting my money where my mouth is.
Which is again an oversimplification. How this is reasonably achieved is the problem. A solution to the problem has to be practical to be of any benefit. Again it's akin to saying that all depressed people need to do is cheer up. It's indeed what is required. Determining how to do it is the question.

It's not an oversimplification. It's entirely possible to recognize that a complex problem can have a simple solution that is in turn complex to implement. If I had been saying only "eat less and exercise more" as the solution then I could understand your objections, but I have made it incredibly clear in this and in other threads that I both understand and appreciate the size of this undertaking.
It certainly doesn't have to be that way.

I know.

[iBlue]

If you're speaking of a physical medical condition, there's not a lot of data to support that notion. Of the people who believe — or perhaps more accurately have been convinced — that they are suffering due to their "genetics" or "metabolism" almost none of them are, and there are very few diseases that can cause obesity. Most of the people who are convinced that they "eat well" or "not a lot" and "exercise" fall exactly into the caloric range you would expect of someone of their weight. If, however, you consider mental conditions to be medical in nature (and I do) then you have a much more compelling argument on your hands. There is more and more evidence that obesity and depression are linked in a very much vicious circle, in that depression can cause obesity, and obesity can cause depression (especially true of women).

<snip>

I don't disagree with anything you've said really but in some cases there are medical things going on which make the weight loss more difficult. (that wasn't the entire point of my post though.) As it turns out, I myself have not one but two things wrong with my endocrine system which lends heavily, as it were, to weight gain and difficulty losing. I'm not technically overweight (although I think I am :o) but I struggle constantly not to be. It is an incredible frustration to tell yourself no all the time, eat less than is 'normal' and exercise only for little to no results. The urge to give up is monumental. I figure it's my problem to deal with but having support is what keeps me from throwing in the towel and resigning myself to failure. I truly understand how someone can fall into the trap and struggle to escape it.

I think you had a great idea with the compulsory home economics in school. If you never learn and develop those bad habits with food I'm sure it's much less of an issue later in life.

I suppose all I am really getting at here (and part of what abiyng87 has been trying to say) is it's not ONLY a case of eating better and exercising. It doesn't need to be overcomplicated but under-complicating doesn't do much to help either. If it were such a simple problem, it wouldn't be such a problem.

[.Andy]

All the study you posted proves is that a very significant number of people fail to even meet the basic steps for weight loss; something that should be obvious given the scope of the problem. If people were successful at losing weight on their own, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'm not proposing "lol noob man up and go 2 gym".
But are you actually proposing anything that has any evidence base to it? It's all well and good to propose education and encourage diet and exercise but in the end there has to be the compliance - either through the ability of people to stick to a scheme or actually want to pay for it. And compliance is the largest hurdle with the more interventions you have with people over a longer period of time the higher your costs will escalate. Without evidence it's an educated guess. And an expensive gamble where limited healthcare funding might be better spent productively elsewhere.

I'm not arguing what you propose will turn out to be incorrect (heck it's similar to what I recommend people do as well), just that given the research on weight that we've mustered over the last 5 decades or so and the abysmal failure we've been at fighting overweight and obesity, that it's perhaps a tad brash to suggest that a solution would be so simple for any more than a minority of people.

Anyway I've backed up my position with references that there's currently not many, if any, interventions that result in anything more than a modest, short term improvement from in weight loss. Medicine is quite open and honest about this shortcoming. In fact much to people's chagrin bariatric surgery seems to be proving to be one of the best evidence backed interventions for maintaining weight loss. We'll have to see how newer generations of weight loss pharmaceuticals fare. It's of my opinion that these are where we'll see the greatest inroads into overweight and obesity ahead of lifestyle modification (although all interventions will remain important).

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Yes, it is a fact. No one is denying that. What you seem to be missing is that there are situations in which people might be able to make the connection, but not act on it. By this point in the thread, if after reading all the posts you don't understand that, then I really don't know what more can be said to change your viewpoint. Yes, the cause (eating too much, moving too little) and the solution (doing the opposite of the cause) are simple on the surface, but the motivating factors behind these simple truths are not at all simple.

No. There is no trouble in motivating people, unless they are lazy. That's basically the only way you can lose motivation to do something so simple as eating healthy, or jogging in the morning.

[bamaworks]

I'm sorry to say, but I see a lot of blame shifting and lack of responsibility being taken in this thread for the obese condition. If you have a hormone problem, go to a doctor, get treatment. It exists. My sister got up to 250lbs at 5'6". She finally (and I do mean FINALLY) went to a doctor, got referred to an endocrinologist, found her TSH to be 0.1mg/dl, got on thyroid medication, lost 100lbs. Crutching on hormone inbalances is NOT an excuse. I understand some people are more genetically prone to weight gain. So be it. Are you going to accept it (translation: don't complain) or do something about it? Laziness or lack of motivation is NOT an excuse. Hold yourself accountable, the fact that no one does this these days is what's wrong with society today.

Honestly, based on my scientific and medical background, there is a very small percentage of people who truly can't do anything about it. Rarely excuses can be made because in earlier times the percentage of obese people was so low because people didn't sit in front of a glowing box all day and actually made something happen physically.

I can assure you there was no obesity in concentration camps. Hormone problem? See a doctor. Eating problem? See an phsychiatrist. Self control problem? Toughen up and take responsibility. Anyone who eats healthy (and that also means in the right proportions) and gets their ass out and walks 5-10 miles (gotta walk before you can run right? And if you TRULY want to do something about it, you'll do whatever distance it takes, I did.). Take it from someone who has first hand experience seeing others lose the weight and losing it himself. Take the Nike challenge, and 'just do it'.

I just have absolutely no sympathy for someone who whines about how "they can't help it" (which is less often the case) and how "you don't know how hard this is!". Suck it up. Life is hard, get a helmet.

[Shotglass]

My grandfather is morbidly obese. He eats two meals a day of specially prepared, nutritious, non-fat food, he gets all the excercise an 80-year-old man can get, and his weight has been the same for as long as I can remember.
Obesity is not a sin, but it's a huge problem.

[bamaworks]

Yes, it is a fact. No one is denying that. What you seem to be missing is that there are situations in which people might be able to make the connection, but not act on it. By this point in the thread, if after reading all the posts you don't understand that, then I really don't know what more can be said to change your viewpoint. Yes, the cause (eating too much, moving too little) and the solution (doing the opposite of the cause) are simple on the surface, but the motivating factors behind these simple truths are not at all simple.

So what you're saying is sometimes there is no excuse? More often than not people accept their condition as not worth the effort to fix it (lazy and/or apathetic?). That weak and accepting attitude is what is wrong with most people these days, and I don't mean only with weight issues. If you aren't willing to do what it takes you're more than deserving of the outcome. No one is going to give you anything in this life. You have to have the gumption to take what you want, and be without what you don't have the desire to attain. I mean, what is your excuse if you know how to fix the problem but are constantly defending doing nothing about it?

I apologize for my lack of sympathy and seemingly callous disposition, I just have a tendency to hold people accountable for themselves.

[iBlue]

So what you're saying is sometimes there is no excuse? More often than not people accept their condition as not worth the effort to fix it (lazy and/or apathetic?). That weak and accepting attitude is what is wrong with most people these days, and I don't mean only with weight issues. If you aren't willing to do what it takes you're more than deserving of the outcome. No one is going to give you anything in this life. You have to have the gumption to take what you want, and be without what you don't have the desire to attain. I mean, what is your excuse if you know how to fix the problem but are constantly defending doing nothing about it?

I apologize for my lack of sympathy and seemingly callous disposition, I just have a tendency to hold people accountable for themselves.

You know, you can have that same tendency without being so self-righteous and rude about it.

I've found your posts on this to be rather caustic and I wonder if you really want a discussion and to learn how it may be for other people or if you are merely here to preach about how fantastically you have it all figured out.

[bamaworks]

You know, you can have that same tendency without being so self-righteous and rude about it.

I've found your posts on this to be rather caustic and I wonder if you really want a discussion and to learn how it may be for other people or if you are merely here to preach about how fantastically you have it all figured out.


I'm just stating a fact. If a person accepts their condition, they are doomed to it. Everyone acts like this issue is so complex while 9 out of 10 times it is as simple as making a commitment (albeit your mileage may vary). There's nothing self righteous about cause and effect, do or do not, zero or one. This exists without regard to excuse. As I said above, I just have this nasty habit of holding people accountable for themselves.

I sympathize with body image issues, what I don't sympathize with is self deception and lack of gumption to get out and do something about it. I come from a background where it is understood that complaining gets nothing done and if you choose to do nothing about a problem, the problem is yours to keep.

[oscillatewildly]

Instead of that piece of junk food costing USD 1.99, make it USD 19.99. Subsidise 'healthy food', less money spent upfront rather than more down the line. Education in schools. Cost and education should help to whittle down the 'lazy and uneducated'. Those with psychological problems will have to pay a higher price, find a new drug, or face their demons. If they are prepared to confront their problems, then they need support. This leaves people who have genuine physiological trouble, a tough place to be - management, drastic surgery and the hope of a 'cure'.

Cheers,
OW

[bamaworks]

Instead of that piece of junk food costing USD 1.99, make it USD 19.99. Subsidise 'healthy food', less money spent upfront rather than more down the line. Education in schools. Cost and education should help to whittle down the 'lazy and uneducated'. Those with psychological problems will have to pay a higher price, find a new drug, or face their demons. If they are prepared to confront their problems, then they need support. This leaves people who have genuine physiological trouble, a tough place to be - management, drastic surgery and the hope of a 'cure'.

Cheers,
OW

That's far too drastic. People are free to do as they please without being forced one way or another. If a person wants to have a McBody, so be it, I just can't stand when those same people complain about their weight issues when they scarf Thickburgers while they watch [insert your favorite melodrama / sitcom here] and never make an attempt to do anything about it for whatever excuse they can conjure. You can bet at least person like that has posted a sob story on this thread.

[oscillatewildly]

Then let them wallow in their fat and pick up the tab.

[dubhe]

I agree with taxing unhealthy food. We (in the UK at least) tax cigarettes and alcohol, partly (or so the politicians would have us believe) to help pay for future medical care ('free' with the NHS). Why not tax unhealthy foods?

[bamaworks]

I agree with taxing unhealthy food. We (in the UK at least) tax cigarettes and alcohol, partly (or so the politicians would have us believe) to help pay for future medical care ('free' with the NHS). Why not tax unhealthy foods?

Agreed, that would general an unbelievable amount of revenue for the gov't (recession antidote, people?). It also just goes to show you how much fast food we really eat when you realize that McDonalds makes more money than the entire economy of some countries.

[iBlue]

Then let them wallow in their fat and pick up the tab.
:rolleyes:

Wait, so because you have some sort of hatred for overweight people and think they cannot restrict their diets, the rest of us who do should have to pay extortionate amounts for occasional treats? I think not.

I'm sure our greedy tax-happy UK government will try to put such a tax in place but I'd still find it completely absurd if they did.
If some of you are so pissed off about having to fork over money to aid the obese, why are you so cool with paying more for your choice and good decision to only occasionally indulge in naughty foods? I think instituting taxes on ANY foods is a very very slippery slope. You cannot trust a politician to reason it out fairly and not take advantage. And who gets to decide what is healthy and what isn't? I cannot even imagine the sort of problems that would cause. It's just a stupid idea.

[leekohler]

I'm just stating a fact. If a person accepts their condition, they are doomed to it. Everyone acts like this issue is so complex while 9 out of 10 times it is as simple as making a commitment (albeit your mileage may vary). There's nothing self righteous about cause and effect, do or do not, zero or one. This exists without regard to excuse. As I said above, I just have this nasty habit of holding people accountable for themselves.

I sympathize with body image issues, what I don't sympathize with is self deception and lack of gumption to get out and do something about it. I come from a background where it is understood that complaining gets nothing done and if you choose to do nothing about a problem, the problem is yours to keep.


This is so true. I think we all have things in life that we complain about, and yet do nothing to fix. I don't think anyone here can claim they don't.

[dubhe]

I think instituting taxes on ANY foods is a very very slippery slope. You cannot trust a politician to reason it out fairly and not take advantage. And who gets to decide what is healthy and what isn't? I cannot even imagine the sort of problems that would cause. It's just a stupid idea.

Ok, so perhaps we should scrap the NHS and all go private. Those that live healthy lives will have a lower premium than those that do not, and those that indulge occasionally as a treat have nothing to worry about :p

[iBlue]

Ok, so perhaps we should scrap the NHS and all go private. Those that live healthy lives will have a lower premium than those that do not, and those that indulge occasionally as a treat have nothing to worry about :p

Yeah, that's exactly the same thing. :rolleyes:

[bamaworks]

This is so true. I think we all have things in life that we complain about, and yet do nothing to fix. I don't think anyone here can claim they don't.

Exactly. It all comes in understanding the decisions we make and the consequences of our lifestyles. Just as I feel that those with poor diets shouldn't complain about their weight, I dually feel that smokers shouldn't complain when they have shortness of breath or get respiratory related illnesses, or how alcoholics shouldn't complain about cirrhosis and gastric ulcerations.

Long story short, accept your fate or fix the problem.

[oscillatewildly]

:rolleyes:

Wait, so because you have some sort of hatred for overweight people and think they cannot restrict their diets, the rest of us who do should have to pay extortionate amounts for occasional treats? I think not.

I'm sure our greedy tax-happy UK government will try to put such a tax in place but I'd still find it completely absurd if they did.
If some of you are so pissed off about having to fork over money to aid the obese, why are you so cool with paying more for your choice and good decision to only occasionally indulge in naughty foods? I think instituting taxes on ANY foods is a very very slippery slope. You cannot trust a politician to reason it out fairly and not take advantage. And who gets to decide what is healthy and what isn't? I cannot even imagine the sort of problems that would cause. It's just a stupid idea.


'...some sort of hatred for overweight people...' - where the ***** do you get off? Who the ***** are you to say I have such a hatred?

In the US there has been an increase in eating out, the portion sizes have been getting bigger and have outweighed the increase in price, food of a lower nutritional value makes up a larger percentage of the meal, all coupled with less exercise means even those without psychological/physiological problems have been getting bigger. If the position taken is that it would be good to reverse the trend for the sake of wellbeing, and it is paid for at some point anyway, pricing certain food at a level that makes people look for a cheaper healthier alternative will help. Some won't mind paying more for an occasional treat, others will. Do enough people change from awareness alone? Of course another view is - the stomachs have spoken, what the hell?

As for who decides - the Claw

[abijnk]

No. There is no trouble in motivating people, unless they are lazy. That's basically the only way you can lose motivation to do something so simple as eating healthy, or jogging in the morning.

I'm sorry, but that is an incredibly naive view of the entire situation.

EDIT:
bamaworks, I think you are too busy harping on responsibility to look at the issue at hand. For those who choose not to do anything about it, sure they should be left to their own devices, but I don't think anybody here is discussing people like like that except you. But what about those who do choose to try and change their situation? Should they be left to fend for themselves? As other have pointed out, when it comes time to make that decision to change something in your life sometimes sheer will power just won't cut the mustard. Who then do these people have to turn to? People like you who think they should just suck it up? How callous can you be?

It amazes me that there are people on here who seem to think that most fat people are simply OK with being fat. It has been my experience in family, with myself, and with other friends around me that this is pretty much never the case. Has it ever occurred to anyone that what you are perceiving as whining is a cry for help? I think a big part of the problem with obesity is that most people are repulsed by it. They see it as ugly and therefore distance themselves from it. Its easy to look at something ugly and isolate yourself from it, to say it isn't your problem. While decisions like this ultimately lie with the person who is obese it is important for those around them to be supportive and understanding of their situation. I feel so sorry for anyone who might be struggling with this and have some of you as their close friends. Everybody knows its a personal responsibility issue, ok, we get that. No one can force someone to lose weight. However, to then make the leap to the idea that we should then harbor any kind of hatred or malcontent toward these people simply because they can't get through it on their own is asinine.

I'm here to tell you, there is nothing wrong with needing support in this struggle. Without Chris's support and example I don't know where I would be in all of this. That I have finally gotten to where I have stopped gaining is a very big deal, and I know I couldn't have done it alone. While it is my decision, and my responsibility, and my problem, I know I can't do it by myself. That I should be chastised for needing outside support, that people think I am complaining about my situation for discussing the internal struggle involved is completely foreign to me.

What people like myself and others need are good examples from those around us, friends who live a healthy lifestyle in plain sight and at the same time are willing to share their knowledge and compassion, not put others down because they can't conform to their lifestyle as easily.

[iBlue]

'...some sort of hatred for overweight people...' - where the ***** do you get off? Who the ***** are you to say I have such a hatred?

...

Where do you get off acting so outraged and swearing at me? Who do you think you are? I happen to think you do sound hateful.

[leekohler]

'...some sort of hatred for overweight people...' - where the ***** do you get off? Who the ***** are you to say I have such a hatred?

In the US there has been an increase in eating out, the portion sizes have been getting bigger and have outweighed the increase in price, food of a lower nutritional value makes up a larger percentage of the meal, all coupled with less exercise means even those without psychological/physiological problems have been getting bigger. If the position taken is that it would be good to reverse the trend for the sake of wellbeing, and it is paid for at some point anyway, pricing certain food at a level that makes people look for a cheaper healthier alternative will help. Some won't mind paying more for an occasional treat, others will. Do enough people change from awareness alone? Of course another view is - the stomachs have spoken, what the hell?

As for who decides - the Claw

I have to agree. If we can tax the hell out of cigarettes and booze, we can certainly tax the crap out of unhealthy foods. Honestly, let's start with anything containing high fructose corn syrup. If there's a Satan, he's responsible for that garbage.

Of course, I don't agree with him swearing at you, iBlue.

[SydneyDev]

Under a private system people have a financial incentive to stay healthy. When they are about to buy that jumbo fries they think about their doctor's bill.

[bamaworks]

I'm sorry, but that is an incredibly naive view of the entire situation.

EDIT:
bamaworks, I think you are too busy harping on responsibility to look at the issue at hand. The issue IS about responsibility. Everyone is responsible for themselves. Stop making excuses for why you can't muster the desire and accept it, or get in gear. As many years as you've been in this world, you should know that the only person who can solve your problems is yourself. I am responsible for no one by obligation, only those I choose to be responsible for.

For those who choose not to do anything about it, sure they should be left to their own devices, but I don't think anybody here is discussing people like like that except you. Are you even reading the other posts?

But what about those who do choose to try and change their situation? Should they be left to fend for themselves? As other have pointed out, when it comes time to make that decision to change something in your life sometimes sheer will power just won't cut the mustard. Who then do these people have to turn to? People like you who think they should just suck it up? Have you been reading my posts on this topic? I mentioned if it is physiological, see an endocrinologist, if it is mental, see a psychologist. Come on now. How callous can you be? If I recall, I even mentioned that I didn't mean to be callous, only realistic. Though since I already mentioned the callous, real world nature of my responses, I doubt you need to point it out.


It amazes me that there are people on here who seem to think that most fat people are simply OK with being fat. It has been my experience in family, with myself, and with other friends around me that this is pretty much never the case. Has it ever occurred to anyone that what you are perceiving as whining is a cry for help? I never said I believed obese people felt like they wanted to be fat, they just come to accept it by becoming complacent and failing to exert the effort to solve the problem. If their whining is a cry for help, perhaps they should be an adult about it and stop playing mind games and get serious. I think a big part of the problem with obesity is that most people are repulsed by it. They see it as ugly and therefore distance themselves from it. Its easy to look at something ugly and isolate yourself from it, to say it isn't your problem. While decisions like this ultimately lie with the person who is obese it is important for those around them to be supportive and understanding of their situation. I feel so sorry for anyone who might be struggling with this and have some of you as their close friends. Everybody knows its a personal responsibility issue, ok, we get that. No one can force someone to lose weight. However, to then make the leap to the idea that we should then harbor any kind of hatred or malcontent toward these people simply because they can't get through it on their own is asinine. I am not rallying the village with pitchforks, but rather simply commenting on how ridiculous it is that people willingly feed themselves trash and wonder why they become obese. That's like smoking cigarettes and wondering why the hell you got lung cancer. One of my best friends is 5'8" 325lbs, and he totally agrees with me. He's lost down to 225 before via cycling, but admittedly loses his willpower and eats terribly and gains it all back. (Keyword: Willpower). Furthermore he says he wants no help because he's an adult and will do as he pleases with his life, and if he really wants it gone, it's gone, but he doens't want someone pushing him from behind because even if he achieves his goal, he will know that it wasn't him, but someone else pushing him. You know, there's a certain sense of achievement when you do something on your own, I recommend it.


I'm here to tell you, there is nothing wrong with needing support in this struggle. Without Chris's support and example I don't know where I would be in all of this. That I have finally gotten to where I have stopped gaining is a very big deal, and I know I couldn't have done it alone. While it is my decision, and my responsibility, and my problem, I know I can't do it by myself. That I should be chastised for needing outside support, that people think I am complaining about my situation for discussing the internal struggle involved is completely foreign to me.

What people like myself and others need are good examples from those around us, friends who live a healthy lifestyle in plain sight and at the same time are willing to share their knowledge and compassion, not put others down because they can't conform to their lifestyle as easily.

Outside support is just fine. I mentioned (again, previous post), that getting help is fine, but most don't. That's my point. Most don't try to solve their own problems, or seek out others to help, then complain about weight. Perhaps what I'm saying is be an adult, learn some self control. Be accountable for yourself. If you have no self control, then that is just indicative of who you are and who you will always be. Put down the whole chickens, put down the thickburgers and deep dish pizzas. Put in some salad with fat free dressing, put in wheat breads and pastas in correct portions. Engage in some cardio, hell, buy a Wii Fit. If you truly, deep inside, wanted to lose the weight you would. If I offered you a million dollars to be 150lbs by next July, you'd come in here at 145 palms out. It's all about how much you want it, and if you truly want to give up some of the luxuries of going out to eat with friends, drinking cocktails, or wherever else people get their random piles of calories. Sacrifices get made by people willing to make them.

[oscillatewildly]

Where do you get off acting so outraged and swearing at me? Who do you think you are? I happen to think you do sound hateful.

Getting off acting so outraged - you could have asked if I had some sort of hatred for overweight people - I would have wondered why you asked such a question and answered no - but you have to assign it, claim it as fact, pretty low-life. As for sounding hateful, please clean your ears.

[anjinha]

Under a private system people have a financial incentive to stay healthy. When they are about to buy that jumbo fries they think about their doctor's bill.

The U.S. has a private healthcare system and the biggest obesity rate in the world. So much for that theory.

[iBlue]

Getting off acting so outraged - you could have asked if I had some sort of hatred for overweight people - I would have wondered why you asked such a question and answered no - but you have to assign it, claim it as fact, pretty low-life. As for sounding hateful, please clean your ears.

I don't know why you are so pissed off about the comment, especially if it's not true, but I have nothing more to say to you. Seems like you just want to be angry, have at it.

[Ugg]

Instead of that piece of junk food costing USD 1.99, make it USD 19.99. Subsidise 'healthy food', less money spent upfront rather than more down the line. Education in schools. Cost and education should help to whittle down the 'lazy and uneducated'. Those with psychological problems will have to pay a higher price, find a new drug, or face their demons. If they are prepared to confront their problems, then they need support. This leaves people who have genuine physiological trouble, a tough place to be - management, drastic surgery and the hope of a 'cure'.

Cheers,
OW

+1

Here in the US, healthy food is unsubsidized and the only thing that gets federal agricultural funds is the unhealthy stuff. If potatoes weren't subsidized, I'm sure most orders of fries would be super small instead of super large.

Arugula and spinach should get federal price supports and wheat and corn need to learn to exist without massive federal subsidies.

Since most fast food places use cheap, temporary labor and don't provide health care or retirement benefits, they are essentially screwing the system over. It's long past time we had a fast food tax in this country.

[oscillatewildly]

iBlue -

'I don't know why you are so pissed off about the comment...' - you ask the question,

'...especially if it's not true...' - then answer it.

I am not angry, I just feel sorry for you.

[Iscariot]

The urge to give up is monumental. I figure it's my problem to deal with but having support is what keeps me from throwing in the towel and resigning myself to failure.

I believe in you :)
I suppose all I am really getting at here (and part of what abiyng87 has been trying to say) is it's not ONLY a case of eating better and exercising. It doesn't need to be overcomplicated but under-complicating doesn't do much to help either. If it were such a simple problem, it wouldn't be such a problem.

I absolutely agree (and have said as much)
But are you actually proposing anything that has any evidence base to it?

Of course. To begin with, there are studies that demonstrate that many people do not trust their GP for weight related issues, and that the GP is typically less likely to point out weight problems than they should be. This demonstrates a system that is fundamentally flawed and that their is a basic behavioural failure on both the part of patients and general practitioners. There are several studies that indicate the efficacy of personal training versus self-directed exercising. There was a study in Pennsylvania that demonstrated that simply making nutritional information available in the cafeteria led to a decline in the purchase of the least healthy foods. There are studies that indicate that a lower level of education leads to an increased consumption of fast food. There's a study that compares women who report their daily caloric intake that demonstrates those who do so properly (and therefore understand the issue) have a lower BMI. We don't need a study to demonstrate the fact that unhealthy food is cheaper than the healthy alternative.
In fact much to people's chagrin bariatric surgery seems to be proving to be one of the best evidence backed interventions for maintaining weight loss. We'll have to see how newer generations of weight loss pharmaceuticals fare. It's of my opinion that these are where we'll see the greatest inroads into overweight and obesity ahead of lifestyle modification (although all interventions will remain important).

I have to respectfully disagree. This isn't treating the condition, merely the symptoms. A preventative program that instills people — especially young people — with the tools necessary to make healthy choices is going to be significantly more affordable. However, since neither a comprehensive education plan nor an improvement in pharmaceuticals have been implemented in any meaningful way, we are both making educated guesses. We don't have any real data that says much more than "what we are doing is not working".
No. There is no trouble in motivating people, unless they are lazy. That's basically the only way you can lose motivation to do something so simple as eating healthy, or jogging in the morning.

That's ridiculous and you clearly have zero understanding of the situation.

[LizKat]

The issue IS about responsibility. Everyone is responsible for themselves. Stop making excuses for why you can't muster the desire and accept it, or get in gear. As many years as you've been in this world, you should know that the only person who can solve your problems is yourself. I am responsible for no one by obligation, only those I choose to be responsible for.

What a hectoring approach. And the tack-on about about responsibility is patent nonsense: we all have some responsibilities to others, some are legal, some are by custom, some "merely" by courtesy. All serve the purpose of helping one get through a life necessarily shared with other human beings.

Are you even reading the other posts?

Were you? Physicans readily acknowledge the complexity of obesity and difficulty assessing why some succeed in recovering from it and others do not. They do not, as you seem to do, throw it all back at their patients in the end and say "Apply will power."

Have you been reading my posts on this topic? I mentioned if it is physiological, see an endocrinologist, if it is mental, see a psychologist. Come on now. If I recall, I even mentioned that I didn't mean to be callous, only realistic. Though since I already mentioned the callous, real world nature of my responses, I doubt you need to point it out.
Not meaning to be callous, well you may be the judge of your intention. Realistic, no. You make it sound like consulting professionals for help with obesity is like running the car into the shop for repair of a glove box latch. It is not so simple, not so easy, not such a short turnaround. Yes, obese people need to seek help. Yes, put effort into it. Who am I to judge if someone has made the effort. Who are you? This is for the patient and the people working with her on the problem to assess, in periodic reviews of progress or setbacks.

I never said I believed obese people felt like they wanted to be fat, they just come to accept it by becoming complacent and failing to exert the effort to solve the problem. If their whining is a cry for help, perhaps they should be an adult about it and stop playing mind games and get serious. I am not rallying the village with pitchforks, but rather simply commenting on how ridiculous it is that people willingly feed themselves trash and wonder why they become obese. That's like smoking cigarettes and wondering why the hell you got lung cancer. -snip-

The OP does not strike me as complacent or having failed to exert effort to deal with obesity. Most certainly she is not in denial of her problem. Your use of words like "complacent" and "whining" and "playing mind games" seem like projection to me, and anyway hardly a constructive confrontation in the interest of helping the OP, if that is what you intended.

[Rt&Dzine]

These are my opinions based on personal observation . . .

Most of the overweight people I know eat a lot of high calorie food. Large portions and they snack in between meals. Some tell me that they don't overeat and that they eat fairly healthy and wonder why they can't lose the weight. Some say they have slow metabolism. But I see them eating large portions of high calorie food. And desserts on top of that. Plus potato chips and similar type of snacks in between. In one case the entire family eats this way and they think it's normal. I stayed with them for a week and they ate lots of fattening food every day. Nobody could stay slim eating the way they did. But they claim that their obesity is genetic.

I have concluded that most of the overweight people I know, (a) are genuinely not aware of how much they consume, or (b) are aware but think it's a reasonable amount, or (c) are in denial (deep-down they are aware but can't or don't want to deal with it).

[bamaworks]

I have concluded that most of the overweight people I know, (a) are genuinely not aware of how much they consume, or (b) are aware but think it's a reasonable amount, or (c) are in denial (deep-down they are aware but can't or don't want to deal with it).

I have to agree fully with what you've said, very good point.

[leekohler]

These are my opinions based on personal observation . . .

Most of the overweight people I know eat a lot of high calorie food. Large portions and they snack in between meals. Some tell me that they don't overeat and that they eat fairly healthy and wonder why they can't lose the weight. Some say they have slow metabolism. But I see them eating large portions of high calorie food. And desserts on top of that. Plus potato chips and similar type of snacks in between. In one case the entire family eats this way and they think it's normal. I stayed with them for a week and they ate lots of fattening food every day. Nobody could stay slim eating the way they did. But they claim that their obesity is genetic.

I have concluded that most of the overweight people I know, (a) are genuinely not aware of how much they consume, or (b) are aware but think it's a reasonable amount, or (c) are in denial (deep-down they are aware but can't or don't want to deal with it).

I went to visit my cousin in Philadelphia recently. He's in his late twenties and gained a lot of weight in the past few years. He was complaining to me about it the first day when he dropped me off at a local gym. "Hey, let me know how that gym is, I've been thinking about joining." I told him he should stop thinking. ;)

Anyway, the next day, he tells me he needs to go run some errands and there's plenty of breakfast food in the fridge and cupboards. I look in the fridge: coffeecake, doughnuts, soda. No eggs, fruit, or juice. So I thought I'd try the cupboard: Pop Tarts, Captain Crunch, Little Debbies, etc. I was horrified. There wasn't one thing in that house food-wise that wasn't processed and full of sugar.

He gets back and I tell him that I need to go find somewhere to get brunch. He looked a bit embarrassed. I just told him there's no way I could eat that s***, and what the hell was he doing eating it? His answer? "It's cheap." I haven't talked to him in a while, so I hope he's doing better. It stinks, because he's always been such a cute guy.

Oh- and BTW, in my family we can be quite blunt, especially if we care about each other. And I really worry about him. He's one of the few family members I can relate to. It was scary to see him that big.

[Iscariot]

The issue IS about responsibility.

Where is the responsibility of farmers to produce quality produce? Where is the responsibility of food businesses to produce quality food? Where is the responsibility of super markets to sell quality foods at reasonable cost? Where is the responsibility of the government to fairly subsidize food? Where is the responsibility of schools to teach proper phys ed and nutrition? Where is the responsibility of insurance companies to provide medical treatment for obesity?

The individual absolutely has responsibility, but they are far from the only entity to fail to live up to it.

[abijnk]

The issue IS about responsibility. Everyone is responsible for themselves. Stop making excuses for why you can't muster the desire and accept it, or get in gear. As many years as you've been in this world, you should know that the only person who can solve your problems is yourself. I am responsible for no one by obligation, only those I choose to be responsible for.


Thanks? I guess? I wasn't aware I was making excuses for myself. We seem to agree on a lot of things, however, I really don't understand where this part is coming from. :confused:

I have not, or at least it has not been my intention to, present my personal struggles both mentally and physically as excuses (definition: to make apology for; to try to remove blame from), but rather as reasons (definition: something that supports a conclusion or explains a fact) for why I struggle to lose weight to begin with.

I have never said that obesity is not a personal responsibility issue. However, the point I have tried to press is that calling it a personal responsibility issue and not thinking any more of it will not solve anything. As others have advocated, education is a very important part of the solution to the obesity epidemic. But, as I've continually said, this education can't simply be "eat less, exercise more." Most everyone understands this concept, but not the principles behind it. Does everybody know what proper portion sizes are? Can everybody read and understand nutrition labels? Things like that need to be taught. In addition, it shouldn't be forgotten that obese people need mental health support as well. People should be told that seeking the care of a mental health professional could be of benefit to them, and that there will not be any negative stigmas attached to them if they do.


I have concluded that most of the overweight people I know, (a) are genuinely not aware of how much they consume, or (b) are aware but think it's a reasonable amount, or (c) are in denial (deep-down they are aware but can't or don't want to deal with it).

I think you are dead on, for the ones that are currently not doing anything to better their situation.

This does bring up something else about how obese people are treated, though, as well. Not too many people stop to assess whether or not the person in question is doing anything about their situation or not before passing judgement. It has been my experience that it doesn't matter if the person is sitting down and eating a salad or sitting down and eating a cheeseburger every night for dinner, those around them perceive only the fact that they are overweight. This, to me, is a reason why ridicule will never be an appropriate motivator. If you've got someone who is working their butt off (literally) but are still being called names or being stared at, then that is going to be a big discouraging factor. Some people might perceive it as more motivation to prove those people wrong, but others are going to be discouraged. Just an interesting angle to think about, I suppose.

[ceezy3000]

Again, saying "well, eat healthier" doesn't address WHY the person wasn't eating healthy in the first place.
I don't know maybe what they were eating just tasted good. I'm not saying I was obese or know what its like to be obese because I don't, but at one point in my life I weighed near 200 pounds at the age of 15. I decided to change and started boxing and exercising and looking at the back of boxes and I lost 50 pounds. I could've blamed the weight to the fact that I have addisons disease and the medicine prescribed makes me hungry but I don't because I know I ate because I wanted to, because well junk food tastes good. it doesnt take much will power to stop and make some changes.

[abijnk]

I don't know maybe what they were eating just tasted good. I'm not saying I was obese or know what its like to be obese because I don't, but at one point in my life I weighed near 200 pounds at the age of 15. I decided to change and started boxing and exercising and looking at the back of boxes and I lost 50 pounds. I could've blamed the weight to the fact that I have addisons disease and the medicine prescribed makes me hungry but I don't because I know I ate because I wanted to, because well junk food tastes good. it didn't take much will power for me to stop and make some changes.

Fixed that. For some people (myself included) it takes a tremendous amount of will power. I am, however, very glad to hear you were able to stop the process in it's tracks before things got out of hand.

I went to visit my cousin in Philadelphia recently. He's in his late twenties and gained a lot of weight in the past few years. He was complaining to me about it the first day when he dropped me off at a local gym. "Hey, let me know how that gym is, I've been thinking about joining." I told him he should stop thinking. ;)

Anyway, the next day, he tells me he needs to go run some errands and there's plenty of breakfast food in the fridge and cupboards. I look in the fridge: coffeecake, doughnuts, soda. No eggs, fruit, or juice. So I thought I'd try the cupboard: Pop Tarts, Captain Crunch, Little Debbies, etc. I was horrified. There wasn't one thing in that house food-wise that wasn't processed and full of sugar.

He gets back and I tell him that I need to go find somewhere to get brunch. He looked a bit embarrassed. I just told him there's no way I could eat that s***, and what the hell was he doing eating it? His answer? "It's cheap." I haven't talked to him in a while, so I hope he's doing better. It stinks, because he's always been such a cute guy.

Oh- and BTW, in my family we can be quite blunt, especially if we care about each other. And I really worry about him. He's one of the few family members I can relate to. It was scary to see him that big.

It's really great that your family has that kind of relationship where you can talk about things so freely. That's really awesome, and I hope it will help your cousin make the right decisions.

[thepawn]

As someone who as been heavy, not heavy and heavy again, I can say that for a large portion of the audience it IS totally about self control and responsibility. There are of course exceptions, and some people have real medical issues, but for most of us, it is NOT. Does it make it easier? Generally no, because you get used to certain life patterns and it takes lots of concentration and discipline to change. It is intensely psychological, and most times isn't as easy as getting yourself to "just do it." Add to that the fact that carbs and sugars are actually physiologically addictive to your body and it creates a challenge.

Unhealthy foods are cheap, fast, easy to get, keep longer and taste good (really easy here in the US). Healthier foods generally are more expensive, don't keep as long, are less tasty natively and take more prep effort in the US. Exercise? Takes some dedication and effort if its not "part of your life" already. If you live in the Suburbs like I do, it's mostly impossible to walk to do life-tasks (the store, etc) by city layouts, so exercise becomes its own task as well. I work from home or at a desk, so basically, I sleep and sit for 16-19 hours a day making my lively ]hood.

http://www.atlantis.edu/~thepawn/images/me/before-2002_after-2003.jpg

I've gained a bit of weight back, and I know exactly what I need to do. I don't have a "sweets addiction" (I don't really like chocolate) - I love carbs: bread, pasta, crackers, cerials, chips... So the key for me is to not eat "non-American portions" (aka, eat a REASONABLE portion, not our monstrosities) and get off our ass and exercise.

I went from 350lbs/25 stone/159kg to 218lbs/15.5 stone/98.8kg. I've gained about half of it back, and now I've decided to stop making excuses, distracted, making excuses and take control of things again. It's a battle almost every day.

When I traveled, this made me laugh, but was just so indicative of the issues with have in the US:
http://www.atlantis.edu/~thepawn/galleries/content/Trips2007/20071105_hong_kong/DSCF4949%20%28Medium%29.JPG

[leekohler]

It's really great that your family has that kind of relationship where you can talk about things so freely. That's really awesome, and I hope it will help your cousin make the right decisions.

It's really only just a few of us. He's on my Dad's side of the family, and I like that side a lot. Fun, and open-minded people.

[abijnk]

Does it make it easier? Generally no, because you get used to certain life patterns and it takes lots of concentration and discipline to change.


That's what I've been trying to point out. Of course it is a personal responsibility issue, but that fact alone doesn't solve the problem.

That picture is funny and yet horrifying all at the same time. :o

[.Andy]

Of course. To begin with, there are studies that demonstrate that many people do not trust their GP for weight related issues, and that the GP is typically less likely to point out weight problems than they should be.
And I'd say this is largely because GPs don't have a good way of managing weight. There really is little a GP can do besides making recommendations and referring on to a dietician and encouraging exercise. And that it going to fail 99% of the time. People don't hear what they want to hear when they are told this. Hearing it is a long and oft unsuccessful battle unless people turn their whole lives around is very confronting. The optimistic (but ultimately unfounded) promises and goals from others in the health and fitness industry is far more appealing in comparison.

This demonstrates a system that is fundamentally flawed and that their is a basic behavioural failure on both the part of patients and general practitioners.
Or alternatively (and more likely) reflects that there is little a GP can actually do.

There are several studies that indicate the efficacy of personal training versus self-directed exercising.
How about some links for these? I've done you the courtesy :).

There was a study in Pennsylvania that demonstrated that simply making nutritional information available in the cafeteria led to a decline in the purchase of the least healthy foods.
With what average weight loss compared to control institutions? And how long was it kept off? What was the size of the cohort here? Did the individuals just purchase equivalent calories in the healthy foods?

There are studies that indicate that a lower level of education leads to an increased consumption of fast food.
But does education turn around the trend? It is a true correlation? Does education reverse these habits and show a significant weight loss in the long-term.

There's a study that compares women who report their daily caloric intake that demonstrates those who do so properly (and therefore understand the issue) have a lower BMI.
Again how much lower was their BMI than controls and how long did the effect last? Are women likely to report their daily caloric intake for the rest of their lives? What do you think the compliance level would be?

I have to respectfully disagree. This isn't treating the condition, merely the symptoms.
It most certainly treats the condition. Bariatric surgery reduces people's weight, keeps the weight off, and results in a decrease in the risk factors for cardiovascular disease. It's a good outcome and so far much better than just about any lifestyle modification that we've seen so far. And it's dynamic. But it still should only be used as a last resort after trying lifestyle modification as all surgery has it's own morbidity.

N Engl J Med 2004;351:2683-93.

background
Weight loss is associated with short-term amelioration and prevention of metabolic and cardiovascular risk, but whether these benefits persist overtime is unknown.

methods
The prospective, controlled Swedish Obese Subjects Study involved obese subjects who underwent gastric surgery and contemporaneously matched, conventionally treated obese control subjects. We now report follow-up data for subjects (mean age, 48 years; mean body-mass index, 41) who had been enrolled for at least 2 years (4047 subjects) or 10 years (1703 subjects) before the analysis (January 1, 2004). The follow-up rate for laboratory examinations was 86.6 percent at 2 years and 74.5 percent at 10 years.

results
After two years, the weight had increased by 0.1 percent in the control group and had decreased by 23.4 percent in the surgery group (P<0.001). After 10 years, the weight had increased by 1.6 percent and decreased by 16.1 percent, respectively (P<0.001). Energy intake was lower and the proportion of physically active subjects higher in the surgery group than in the control group throughout the observation period. Two- and 10-year rates of recovery from diabetes, hypertriglyceridemia, low levels of high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, hypertension, and hyperuricemia were more favorable in the surgery group than in the control group, whereas recovery from hypercholesterolemia did not differ between the groups. The surgery group had lower 2- and 10-year incidence rates of diabetes, hypertriglyceridemia, and hyperuricemia than the control group; differences between the groups in the incidence of hypercholesterolemia and hypertension were undetectable.

conclusions
As compared with conventional therapy, bariatric surgery appears to be a viable option for the treatment of severe obesity, resulting in long-term weight loss, improved lifestyle, and, except for hypercholesterolemia, amelioration in risk factors that were elevated at baseline.

[Zombie Acorn]

Thin will always be more aesthetically pleasing unless we run into a new famine or some sort. That being said I don't think a lot of people have taken the chance to enjoy a gym. Its actually pretty fun once you start going (and addictive). Good way to meet people too.

It only takes about a month before you start seeing results anyway if you are consistent. I go about 4-5 times a week and I don't even diet (although I don't eat fast food or soda either).

[skunk]

Thin will always be more aesthetically pleasing.Speak for yourself. Historically this has not been true, nor is it nowadays. Many people find a little padding deeply sensuous and appealing.

[leekohler]

Speak for yourself. Historically this has not been true, nor is it nowadays. Many people find a little padding deeply sensuous and appealing.

This is true. Very few people thought I was attractive when I was rail thin, including me. I'm gonna have to dig for some pics from back then. It was not a happy period in my life, and it shows.

[Rt&Dzine]

Anyway, the next day, he tells me he needs to go run some errands and there's plenty of breakfast food in the fridge and cupboards. I look in the fridge: coffeecake, doughnuts, soda. No eggs, fruit, or juice. So I thought I'd try the cupboard: Pop Tarts, Captain Crunch, Little Debbies, etc. I was horrified. There wasn't one thing in that house food-wise that wasn't processed and full of sugar.
<snip>
Oh- and BTW, in my family we can be quite blunt, especially if we care about each other. And I really worry about him. He's one of the few family members I can relate to. It was scary to see him that big.

I have some family members that are raising their children on junk food and they are convinced that it is perfectly healthy. The kids have no choice except whether they want a Pop Tart or doughnut for dinner.

I think you are dead on, for the ones that are currently not doing anything to better their situation.


Although, people trying to better their situation can still be under false impressions of their eating habits.

[Mr. Giver '94]

I am slightly overweight. I am 5' 10" and weigh 170 pounds and I'm almost 15. I am always, as most people in California are, trying to lose a few pounds. For myself, I try to base my weight more on how I look rather than just a number alone, mainly because muscle weighs more than fat and different activities affect the body in different ways. I will never consider obesity to be an acceptable body size no matter what the public opinion is, though these days it seems harder and harder to stay at a normal/average weight. I have nothing against "larger" people, but for myself I'm trying to set a goal to lead a more healthy lifestyle. I always will find that being slender and having a body you are proud to display increases not only self confidence, but also your outlook on life.

I, as anyone else, enjoy treats, sweets, and unhealthy foods. The key to eating these foods is to make sure to use moderation and know when enough is enough (ie self-discipline/control). As I see more and more people falling into harmful cycles of obesity and the struggles associated with it, I try to motivate myself even more to keep my weight going down.

Sorry to go all soap-box, but I feel that accepting people being huge, walrus like animals is incorrect and should be corrected before the situation becomes unfixable as more and more countries are affected by obesity and the harm that comes with it.

[abijnk]

Although, people trying to better their situation can still be under false impressions of their eating habits.

Definitely true. Education education education. :D

I try to base my weight more on how I look rather than just a number alone

The importance of this cannot be overstated. A healthy weight isn't just a number on a scale.

So, my thoughts on bariatric surgeries, if anyone cares (gastric bypass, specifically). My mother (45) had this surgery done on April 16th of this year and has since gone from weighing 370 pounds the day she went in for surgery to 297 pounds this morning (sure to be a few less this evening). It was a really interesting process to observe. The pretesting and preparation was done over the course of almost two years. There were tons of medical and psychiatric evaluations and at the end of the day it was up to her surgeon whether or not she was allowed to have the surgery. I will not get into the details behind her decision to have the surgery, as I could never fully know them, but what I have witnessed after the surgery has been really eye opening.

For those who do not know, gastric bypass involves detaching the top part of the stomach and forming it into what is known as a "pouch," and detaching the intestines down a bit from the stomach and connecting it to said pouch. Thus bypassing most of the stomach and a good part of the small intestines.

This obviously limits the amount of food one can intake at one setting and places a set of mandatory dietary restriction on the patient. I think the key word here is mandatory. With the surgery you go to sleep with one lifestyle and wake up being forced to conform to another. Now, every slip up or cheat has real and immediate physical consequences above and beyond potentially gaining more weight. You can't eat white sugar, or you will get dumping syndrome (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dumping-syndrome/DS00715/). You can't eat too much in one sitting or you will be intense pain, and then you will throw up. You can't eat and drink at the same time (at first at least) or you will be in intense pain, and then you will throw up. If you don't eat a well balanced diet and ingest the appropriate amounts of protein your hair will start to fall out and you can develop other symptoms of malnutrition.

Before my mom's surgery I viewed gastric bypass as the easy way out. Now, after seeing her go through it I see that it is clearly not the easy way out. After the surgery you no longer have a choice but to conform to a diet that is better for you. This is of course not a perfect rule, because as time goes on you can stretch the pouch out and definitely gain the weight back, but at least in the beginning your health depends completely on your compliance with the diet.

For my mother, it has turned out to be a very positive thing. From the outside she looks better (healthier, and I don't just mean because she is thinner), you can tell she has tons more energy and she seems happier altogether. So far, for her, it has been a really positive thing. However, I worry that as the rates of obesity rise doctors will begin to relax the restrictions on who qualifies and who is deemed "ready." While the surgery can definitely be a positive thing, I don't know if it is really a good option for those who are capable of losing the weight the "old fashioned way" without significant risks to their health.

I'd be interested in hearing others thoughts on weight loss surgeries.

[Mr. Giver '94]

Definitely true. Education education education. :D



The importance of this cannot be overstated. A healthy weight isn't just a number on a scale.

So, my thoughts on bariatric surgeries, if anyone cares (gastric bypass, specifically). My mother (45) had this surgery done on April 16th of this year and has since gone from weighing 370 pounds the day she went in for surgery to 297 pounds this morning (sure to be a few less this evening). It was a really interesting process to observe. The pretesting and preparation was done over the course of almost two years. There were tons of medical and psychiatric evaluations and at the end of the day it was up to her surgeon whether or not she was allowed to have the surgery. I will not get into the details behind her decision to have the surgery, as I could never fully know them, but what I have witnessed after the surgery has been really eye opening.

For those who do not know, gastric bypass involves detaching the top part of the stomach and forming it into what is known as a "pouch," and detaching the intestines down a bit from the stomach and connecting it to said pouch. Thus bypassing most of the stomach and a good part of the small intestines.

This obviously limits the amount of food one can intake at one setting and places a set of mandatory dietary restriction on the patient. I think the key word here is mandatory. With the surgery you go to sleep with one lifestyle and wake up being forced to conform to another. Now, every slip up or cheat has real and immediate physical consequences above and beyond potentially gaining more weight. You can't eat white sugar, or you will get dumping syndrome (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dumping-syndrome/DS00715/). You can't eat too much in one sitting or you will be intense pain, and then you will throw up. You can't eat and drink at the same time (at first at least) or you will be in intense pain, and then you will throw up. If you don't eat a well balanced diet and ingest the appropriate amounts of protein your hair will start to fall out and you can develop other symptoms of malnutrition.

Before my mom's surgery I viewed gastric bypass as the easy way out. Now, after seeing her go through it I see that it is clearly not the easy way out. After the surgery you no longer have a choice but to conform to a diet that is better for you. This is of course not a perfect rule, because as time goes on you can stretch the pouch out and definitely gain the weight back, but at least int he beginning your health depends completely on your compliance with the diet.

For my mother, it has turned out to be a very positive thing. From the outside she looks better (healthier, and I don't just mean because she is thinner), you can tell she tons more energy and she seems happier altogether. So far, for her, it has been a really positive thing. However, I worry that as the rates of obesity rise doctors will begin to relax the restrictions on who qualifies and who is deemed "ready." While the surgery can definitely be a positive thing, I don't know if it is really a good option for those who are capable of losing the weight the "old fashioned way" without significant risks to their health.

I'd be interested in hearing others thoughts on weight loss surgeries.

As you said, weight loss surgeries are marketed as "the easy way out" when in fact they are not. If the only way to jump-start someone on the right track to becoming more healthy is that sort of surgery, I say go for it. If it will help them start living a better lifestyle, then it is worthwhile. Unfortunately though, most people who view the commercials and other advertisements for the procedures think, "Hmmm... That looks easy. I'll be thin in no time," when in fact it is (as you pointed out) not easy at all.

Unfortunately, weight loss surgery is only a small part of weight loss if it is the route one decides to take. The truth is there is no easy way to reverse obesity and dedication, planning, and discipline are needed.

I am glad your mother has had so much success with the surgery (:)), but she has to keep in mind that it is not the only step to becoming a more physically fit and healthy person.

[Iscariot]

Or alternatively (and more likely) reflects that there is little a GP can actually do.

…Which would represent a
system that is fundamentally flawed
How about some links for these? I've done you the courtesy :).

Link (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2365717)
link (http://www.jssm.org/vol2/n1/2/v2n1-2text.php)
link (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18316279?ordinalpos=8&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
link (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9086691?dopt=Abstract&holding=npg)
link (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18070255?ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

It most certainly treats the condition. Bariatric surgery reduces people's weight, keeps the weight off, and results in a decrease in the risk factors for cardiovascular disease. It's a good outcome and so far much better than just about any lifestyle modification that we've seen so far. And it's dynamic. But it still should only be used as a last resort after trying lifestyle modification as all surgery has it's own morbidity.

Treating obesity with bariatric surgery would require tens of millions of surgeries to be performed, and there are what, 90 000 currently being performed per year? Wasn't it you who said "I'm just being realistic"?

[Capt Crunch]

Where is the responsibility of farmers to produce quality produce? Where is the responsibility of food businesses to produce quality food? Where is the responsibility of super markets to sell quality foods at reasonable cost? Where is the responsibility of the government to fairly subsidize food? Where is the responsibility of schools to teach proper phys ed and nutrition? Where is the responsibility of insurance companies to provide medical treatment for obesity?

The individual absolutely has responsibility, but they are far from the only entity to fail to live up to it.

The responsibility is entirely with the consumer. If there wasn't such a large market for crap food, companies wouldn't make it. It's not a company's responsibility to lose money making a product nobody buys.

[Iscariot]

The responsibility is entirely with the consumer. If there wasn't such a large market for crap food, companies wouldn't make it. It's not a company's responsibility to lose money making a product nobody buys.

Just like how car companies have no responsibility to make safe cars, and drug companies to make safe pharmaceuticals.

[Ugg]

The responsibility is entirely with the consumer. If there wasn't such a large market for crap food, companies wouldn't make it. It's not a company's responsibility to lose money making a product nobody buys.

That is one of the biggest fallacies out there. Just like smoking addiction is totally the fault of the smoker not the company that adds tons of chemicals to cigarettes:rolleyes:

Food companies spend billions on research making sure the salt and sugar and fat are in the right quantities to not only make a person want to buy their product but to create an addiction of sorts.

The government finally got off its duff and is in control of tobacco, now it's time to go after the food companies. It's time to stop subsidizing corn and wheat and beef. Food prices in the US are way too low and it's because of those subsidized commodities that so many people are obese.

[Iscariot]

The government finally got off its duff and is in control of tobacco, now it's time to go after the food companies. It's time to stop subsidizing corn and wheat and beef. Food prices in the US are way too low and it's because of those subsidized commodities that so many people are obese.

Or at the very least rebalance the subsidies so that a premade salad doesn't cost four times as much as a chocolate bar.

[Capt Crunch]

Just like how car companies have no responsibility to make safe cars, and drug companies to make safe pharmaceuticals.

We already have government regulation of food safety.

[.Andy]

…Which would represent a [flawed system]
It's not a flawed system. Blaming the system would suggest that there are outcomes that should be made that aren't being realised. When in fact it's the opposite. There is a dearth of successful long-term treatments available, clinically, by allied health, or the health and fitness industry. And we should all be honest about this when talking to individuals. Otherwise we're giving them unreasonable expectations and setting them up for failure.

Link (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2365717)
Youths with 1 year follow up. You cannot extrapolate these results to long term outcomes.

link (http://www.jssm.org/vol2/n1/2/v2n1-2text.php)
10 week program. Again you cannot extrapolate these results any long term outcomes.

link (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18316279?ordinalpos=8&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
This is only a two semester follow up.

link (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9086691?dopt=Abstract&holding=npg)
18 months follow up.

link (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18070255?ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
6 month follow up.

They're all promising results and add something to the overall picture of what's available to us to treat the overweight and obese, but as I said they're all short-term follow ups with relatively intensive reporting. You cannot extrapolate these results to the larger population or make the assumption that it will work long-term.

To reiterate. A diet and exercise program is something that is usually the first port of call for patients that want to lose weight (as well as addressing any underlying physiological or psychological condition). I don't disagree with this and it's what I'd recommend myself. It most likely will work short term but will only work in the long term in the vast minority. That's the reality of the situation given the current evidence we have. It's the maintenance of effect that's the problem. To present the interventions you linked to as anything more than short-term outcomes isn't being entirely honest. It's setting people up for failure in the long-term.

And based on that evidence there is also no reason to believe that extrapolating those results to a public health level just isn't supported. It's sounds somewhat defeatist but that's the case if we're only making recommendations on the available scientific evidence.

Treating obesity with bariatric surgery would require tens of millions of surgeries to be performed, and there are what, 90 000 currently being performed per year? Wasn't it you who said "I'm just being realistic"?
I didn't present this as the answer to the current epidemic of the overweight and obese. I presented it as a treatment for which we have the absolute best evidence of long-term outcomes. Are there any results from lifestyle modification that come anywhere near the results reported in that paper?

[DiamondMac]

That is one of the biggest fallacies out there. Just like smoking addiction is totally the fault of the smoker not the company that adds tons of chemicals to cigarettes:rolleyes:


People who smoke know the risks

If they choose to smoke, it is their fault.

[abijnk]

We already have government regulation of food safety.

I'd say that's debatable. Safety in terms of short term effects, yes, but not long term.

[Capt Crunch]

I'd say that's debatable. Safety in terms of short term effects, yes, but not long term.

Should the government regulate dessert? Am I allowed to have a fudge sundae when I go out to eat? How many fudge sundaes? Perhaps a restaurant should be forced to only sell me a certain quota of fudge sundaes per month. It would need to be a nation-wide database so that I don't just hit all the Friendlies in a 30 mile radius for my fix.

[abijnk]

Should the government regulate dessert? Am I allowed to have a fudge sundae when I go out to eat? How many fudge sundaes? Perhaps a restaurant should be forced to only sell me a certain quota of fudge sundaes per month. It would need to be a nation-wide database so that I don't just hit all the Friendlies in a 30 mile radius for my fix.

:confused: No one has mentioned anything even close to regulating intake???

[Iscariot]

Youths with 1 year follow up. You cannot extrapolate these results to long term outcomes.


10 week program. Again you cannot extrapolate these results any long term outcomes.


This is only a two semester follow up.


18 months follow up.


6 month follow up.

I believe I made it — hilariously — clear that there's no meaningful long-term data available in post #139.
To present the interventions you linked to as anything more than short-term outcomes isn't being entirely honest.

I don't believe I've presented them as anything other than what they are; promising tools that need more research. This is an awful lot of straw you are trying to stuff my mans with.
I didn't present this as the answer to the current epidemic of the overweight and obese. I presented it as a treatment for which we have the absolute best evidence of long-term outcomes. Are there any results from lifestyle modification that come anywhere near the results reported in that paper?

I didn't present lifestyle modification as the "answer" to the epidemic either. More straw.
Should the government regulate dessert? Am I allowed to have a fudge sundae when I go out to eat? How many fudge sundaes? Perhaps a restaurant should be forced to only sell me a certain quota of fudge sundaes per month. It would need to be a nation-wide database so that I don't just hit all the Friendlies in a 30 mile radius for my fix.

There's a huge difference between some kind of ridiculous ice cream rationing program and balancing the existing government subsidies so that certain unhealthy food additives aren't being kept at artificially low prices.

[Gelfin]

There's a huge difference between some kind of ridiculous ice cream rationing program and balancing the existing government subsidies so that certain unhealthy food additives aren't being kept at artificially low prices.

For starters, I would be thrilled to see a law requiring all food chains to disclose nutritional information. Lobbyists oppose this, and for good and obvious reason. Nobody who knew and understood the numbers would eat would eat there.

I was recently out in some of the outlying suburbs of the Bay Area helping a friend shop for furniture, and we found the only thing readily available for lunch in the area was a Chili's.

Chili's, at least in California, has started including a nutritional insert in its menus.

O.

M.

G.

Not only did just ordering a burger net you 1600 Calories, but it contained 4,000 mg, FOUR GRAMS, 2/3 over your RDA, of sodium. The "ancho chili sauce" was essentially an asston of commercial chili powder plus salt plus commercial barbecue sauce.

It was a horror. And most people across suburban America consider this a step above the fast food they normally eat.

The problem is "the market" has worked too well. It has satisfied people's instinctive tastes for what should be scarce dietary ingredients in such abundance that it is literally killing us. "Market" worshippers just shrug because they are zealots, but we need to understand this as a tool for accomplishing tangible ends, not an autopilot solution for all human conditions. Capitalism is a wonderful tool for solving certain problems, but I see "the market" as being like one of those old sci-fi computers that is smart enough to solve anything, but has no human emotions, so (SURPRISE!) it goes out of control and decides that the most sensible way to solve the problem posed to it is to kill the entire human race.

We have to regain control. We have to stop pretending that "the market" can tell us what's right. We have to gather and evaluate information for ourselves. We have to look at the outcomes and adjust the conditions accordingly. Rampant obesity is the least of the problems that could be thereby addressed.

[OutThere]

For starters, I would be thrilled to see a law requiring all food chains to disclose nutritional information. Lobbyists oppose this, and for good and obvious reason. Nobody who knew and understood the numbers would eat would eat there.

I was recently out in some of the outlying suburbs of the Bay Area helping a friend shop for furniture, and we found the only thing readily available for lunch in the area was a Chili's.

Chili's, at least in California, has started including a nutritional insert in its menus.

O.

M.

G.

Not only did just ordering a burger net you 1600 Calories, but it contained 4,000 mg, FOUR GRAMS, 2/3 over your RDA, of sodium. The "ancho chili sauce" was essentially an asston of commercial chili powder plus salt plus commercial barbecue sauce.

It was a horror. And most people across suburban America consider this a step above the fast food they normally eat.

The problem is "the market" has worked too well. It has satisfied people's instinctive tastes for what should be scarce dietary ingredients in such abundance that it is literally killing us. "Market" worshippers just shrug because they are zealots, but we need to understand this as a tool for accomplishing tangible ends, not an autopilot solution for all human conditions. Capitalism is a wonderful tool for solving certain problems, but I see "the market" as being like one of those old sci-fi computers that is smart enough to solve anything, but has no human emotions, so (SURPRISE!) it goes out of control and decides that the most sensible way to solve the problem posed to it is to kill the entire human race.

We have to regain control. We have to stop pretending that "the market" can tell us what's right. We have to gather and evaluate information for ourselves. We have to look at the outcomes and adjust the conditions accordingly. Rampant obesity is the least of the problems that could be thereby addressed.

Nutritional information should definitely be included on menus at chain places...they do it in New York City and I find it quite useful (though I don't need to count calories myself) for general knowledge at least. Who knew that the little cakes and pastries at Starbucks ran 400-500 calories? No need to get into the coffee drinks http://www.drien.com/macrumors/random/gonemad.gif! You can have a good big burrito at Chipotle for the same calorie hit as a piece of pound cake. Even if I'm not counting calories, I only know those kinds of things because I've seen them on the menu in the city...it's good knowledge to have. I live in Connecticut and CT governor Jodi Rell (:rolleyes:) just vetoed a bill that would have put this requirement in place here.

People have no concept of what they eat in a day.

[Iscariot]

For starters, I would be thrilled to see a law requiring all food chains to disclose nutritional information. Lobbyists oppose this, and for good and obvious reason. Nobody who knew and understood the numbers would eat would eat there.

I concur. Slightly on topic, a lot of people who are against government intervention overlook that the heavy hand of the government is already involved at a number of levels. Government subsidization of food is almost an inversion of the food pyramid, with nearly 75% going to meat and dairy, 10% to sugar and alcohol, ~15% to grains and less than 1% to vegetables. At the very least we need enough government intervention to offset the damage done by government intervention.

I was recently out in some of the outlying suburbs f the Bay Area helping a friend shop for furniture, and we found the only thing readily available for lunch in the area was a Chili's.

Chili's, at least in California, has started including a nutritional insert in its menus.

Not only did just ordering a burger net you 1600 Calories, but it contained 4,000 mg, FOUR GRAMS, 2/3 over your RDA, of sodium. The "ancho chili sauce" was essentially an asston of commercial chili powder plus salt plus commercial barbecue sauce.

It was a horror. And most people across suburban America consider this a step above the fast food they normally eat.

I wish I could say that this horrified me, but I worked at an Outback Steakhouse for about three years. Our appetizer Aussie Cheese Fries packed in over 2 000 calories, and our Blooming Onion contained over 70 grams of fat, or 108% of your RDA.
We have to regain control. We have to stop pretending that "the market" can tell us what's right. We have to gather and evaluate information for ourselves. We have to look at the outcomes and adjust the conditions accordingly. Rampant obesity is the least of the problems that could be thereby addressed.

Amen.

[DiamondMac]

I wish I could say that this horrified me, but I worked at an Outback Steakhouse for about three years. Our appetizer Aussie Cheese Fries packed in over 2 000 calories, and our Blooming Onion contained over 70 grams of fat, or 108% of your RDA.


Amen.

I laughed out loud reading that.

I think I ate that Blooming Onion thing once

No wonder I got fat :D

[SydneyDev]

I think some people in this thread don't know the difference between adults and children. Your children are your responsibility and they damn well eat their greens just because you say so. Others adults don't give a hoot about your opinion. If they want to eat themselves in to an early grave that is neither here nor there as far as you are concerned.

[.Andy]

I believe I made it — hilariously — clear that there's no meaningful long-term data available in post #139.
Your contest in # 139 (whilst indeed hilarious) was that there wasn't any long-term data on lifestyle modification because the obesity epidemic was a new phenomenon. I addressed this. There is indeed long-term data from many different sources, and without questions they show that lifestyle modification results in nothing more than modest weight loss if there is any weight loss at all.

I don't believe I've presented them as anything other than what they are; promising tools that need more research.
But we do know enough to realise that as soon as weight loss trials end and the surveillance of the participants finishes that they'll slowly and progressively regain the weight. I've posted a few references to this effect. It's for this exact reason why there has been the push into pharmacological intervention (which works but has low compliance due to side effects) and surgical interventions. It's going to be tough to maintain long-term weight loss in people unless compliance can be assured. Just how this is achieved is not a simple solution whatsoever. And why short-term interventions with long-term outcomes are required.

I didn't present lifestyle modification as the "answer" to the epidemic either.
I asked because all the links (and previous references) you have provided were all lifestyle modification. I was interested if you had any data that they were useful for anything more than a brief intervention with people and resulted in sustained outcomes given that your knowledge appears to be from this angle.

[zap2]

o. Others adults don't give a hoot about your opinion

Should you generalize more?

Frankly, that comment is just wrong...if no adults cared what other adults thought, why do we have all these debates? Not to mention listen to someone elses thoughts on an issue, can shape your thoughts on it with new knowledge

[Iscariot]

There is indeed long-term data from many different sources, and without questions they show that lifestyle modification results in nothing more than modest weight loss if there is any weight loss at all.

I disagree. There is long-term data that demonstrates lifestyle modification has a low success-rate when it is self-directed, but we have little for long-term supervised weight loss. I would love to see long-term studies that look at exclusively the success rate of private studios and some weight loss clinics (not so much the "big box" gyms) vs. the general population.
But we do know enough to realise that as soon as weight loss trials end and the surveillance of the participants finishes that they'll slowly and progressively regain the weight. I've posted a few references to this effect.

I completely agree. I think that to treat adults who already have obesity, there is going to have to be some form of long-term support.
It's for this exact reason why there has been the push into pharmacological intervention (which works but has low compliance due to side effects) and surgical interventions. It's going to be tough to maintain long-term weight loss in people unless compliance can be assured. Just how this is achieved is not a simple solution whatsoever. And why short-term interventions with long-term outcomes are required.

I think pharmacological intervention is going to encounter similar hurdles when it comes to compliance, especially considering the number of Americans who don't have medical insurance.
I asked because all the links (and previous references) you have provided were all lifestyle modification. I was interested if you had any data that they were useful for anything more than a brief intervention with people and resulted in sustained outcomes given that your knowledge appears to be from this angle.

There's really not a whole lot of information yet. I can tell you that sustained outcomes do indeed result from sustained intervention — a concept that can be extrapolated from the data — but once the intervention ends the results taper off as you've demonstrated. This doesn't really come as a surprise, because once lifestyle modification ends so too do the benefits of that particular lifestyle. This is part of the reason I'm planning to eventually branch more into sport-specific training (once my education reaches a satisfactory level) and to use some of my contacts to begin a speaking career at elementary schools. I don't advocate lifestyle modification as the best solution to the problem, because I believe the best solution to be prevention, which is something that is woefully addressed.

[Capt Crunch]

There's a huge difference between some kind of ridiculous ice cream rationing program and balancing the existing government subsidies so that certain unhealthy food additives aren't being kept at artificially low prices.

I'm fine with removing government subsidies and I'm fine requiring nutrition facts to be displayed somewhere so that consumers can make informed decisions.

I interpreted the post I was responding to as it was the governments job to regulate unhealthy ingredients such as HFCS and other ingredients that are "addictive" and unhealthy. If I misinterpreted, my apologies.

[.Andy]

I disagree. There is long-term data that demonstrates lifestyle modification has a low success-rate when it is self-directed, but we have little for long-term supervised weight loss.
Which, even if the data supports it, would of course be a very expensive venture. Especially considering, as you point out, that upwards of 40 million americans lack health insurance.

I think pharmacological intervention is going to encounter similar hurdles when it comes to compliance, especially considering the number of Americans who don't have medical insurance.
True. But it still might turn out to be the most attractive for a high number of patients to whom lifestyle modification is seen as too big an investment in time and money. A tablet or so a day could be very attractive.

There's really not a whole lot of information yet. I can tell you that sustained outcomes do indeed result from sustained intervention — a concept that can be extrapolated from the data
I still contend this. Extrapolating anything outside of the data is fraught with danger. Especially in an area as humbling as weight loss. People still routinely become fatigued by sustained interventions. Especially one that costs them time and money and competes with other activities in life.

I don't advocate lifestyle modification as the best solution to the problem, because I believe the best solution to be prevention, which is something that is woefully addressed.
Which is a big area in itself.

[Iscariot]

I'm fine with removing government subsidies and I'm fine requiring nutrition facts to be displayed somewhere so that consumers can make informed decisions.

I interpreted the post I was responding to as it was the governments job to regulate unhealthy ingredients such as HFCS and other ingredients that are "addictive" and unhealthy. If I misinterpreted, my apologies.

I don't even like the idea of banning trans fats.
True. But it still might turn out to be the most attractive for a high number of patients to whom lifestyle modification is seen as too big an investment in time and money. A tablet or so a day could be very attractive.

Perhaps, but as we're seeing now I don't think there's a whole lot more support for a tablet than a gym membership. I think the bottom line is that whatever the approach taken to treat obesity, it's going to take some level of government funding.
I still contend this. Extrapolating anything outside of the data is fraught with danger. Especially in an area as humbling as weight loss. People still routinely become fatigued by sustained interventions. Especially one that costs them time and money and competes with other activities in life.

The costs need not be high. Maintenance supervision could be had for less than 1/8th the cost of gastric bypass surgery per year (and even less so if it were covered by medical insurance). As for extrapolating the data, I admit (as I stated earlier) that it's an educated guess, but I'm going to have to go with my personal experiences on this one.
Which is a big area in itself.

"Hes got high apple pie, in the sky hopes"

[thepawn]

I don't even like the idea of banning trans fats.
[/I]

See, while I'm not one for huge government regulation, I can't agree with this statement because when they didn't, there were almost NO other choices to even be able to purchase unless you did ALL your own making from scratch. I don't have time to make all my food from scratch, I need choices, and I would like to see some healthy ones... and they didn't really show up in generally availability without some regulation because the majority all bought the transfats - they "tasted" the best, healthy or not...so market forces would not drive to a healthier alternative.

Dig around on the studies of national average weight and its increase after the widespread use of high-fructose corn-syrup.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e6/Usda_sweeteners.png

In a 2007 study, rats were fed a diet high in fat and HFCS and kept relatively sedentary for 16 weeks in an attempt to emulate the diet and lifestyle of many Americans.[35] The rats were not forced to eat, but were able to eat as much as they wanted; they consumed a large amount of food, and the researcher, Dr. Tetri stated that there is evidence that fructose suppresses the sensation of fullness. Within four weeks, the rats showed early signs of fatty liver disease and type II diabetes.
(http://www.slu.edu/x15990.xml)

[bobber205]

Is there a restaurant on earth that sells a meal for < 1,000 calories?
:eek:

[thepawn]

Is there a restaurant on earth that sells a meal for < 1,000 calories?
:eek:

Only when they are on the "healthy" menu, a few places have them - TGIF, IHOP (amazingly), Applebees, etc.

IHOP has a few meals that are 400-600 calories...including pancakes! lol

[Brien]

It is indeed a disturbing idea that obesity would become normal. Just because most people might become over weight doesn't mean that it should ever be seen as acceptable. I highly doubt our bodies will ever adapt to carrying excess weight, it just too taxing and our bodies weren't... I almost want to say designed, but that's a whole different discussion. :p Nevertheless, our bodies can't cope effectively with that much excess weight.

It would appear WALL•E was more than just a movie if trends continue.

[Iscariot]

I can't agree with this statement because when they didn't

You can't agree with me not liking something?
there were almost NO other choices to even be able to purchase unless you did ALL your own making from scratch. I don't have time to make all my food from scratch, I need choices, and I would like to see some healthy ones... and they didn't really show up in generally availability without some regulation because the majority all bought the transfats - they "tasted" the best, healthy or not...so market forces would not drive to a healthier alternative.

I'm wondering if you've taken the time to actually read any of my other posts.
Is there a restaurant on earth that sells a meal for < 1,000 calories?
:eek:

If you get the kids meal, usually.

[thepawn]

You can't agree with me not liking something?


Er um, yeah, I personally did not agree with you not liking it... lets not be silly, I meant I didn't agree that not having some level of regulation there is a viable solution for our long term health because most people take the easy way out which precludes market forces driving a "healthy choice" being as viably available.

It's one thing to have nutritional information, but then to find every product contains the same problem ingredients, the information doesn't lead you to much other then you can't eat any of it without presenting more choices. I do see the same pattern as you that subsidies exaggerate many of these issues in our countries food production -- corn being the largest... between ethanol and corn syrup, we're a mess.

[Iscariot]

widespread use of high-fructose corn-syrup
I'm wondering if you've taken the time to actually read any of my other posts.
I meant I didn't agree that not having some level of regulation there is a viable solution for our long term health because most people take the easy way out which precludes market forces driving a "healthy choice" being as viably available.
balancing the existing government subsidies so that certain unhealthy food additives aren't being kept at artificially low prices.
Critics also note that, in America, over 90% of [subsidized] money [in America] goes to staple crops of corn
.

edit: posted before your edit

[thepawn]

.

edit: posted before your edit

heh, yeah, seems I usually take 2 or 3 edits before my response looks the way I wanted it. lol. :)

One example I like to share with friends about ingredients and choice is -- try to find a hotdog without nitrates at any supermarket that isn't a Whole Foods or such, its nearly impossible. Now days I can find one or two brands, but only more recently.

[opinioncircle]

Well obesity is pretty sad in our informed societies. I don't think it is easy to condone one practice or another, but if you watch some food related movies, you can see how much these huge food corporations make off making "unhealthy" food.

All that I know is that I select my food carefully (vegetables, fruit and water) and go once in a while for some pleasure. I don't think the government should regulate what we're able to eat, but if people aren't able to feed themselves correctly, shouldn't someone tell them so?

[Iscariot]

heh, yeah, seems I usually take 2 or 3 edits before my response looks the way I wanted it. lol. :)

One example I like to share with friends about ingredients and choice is -- try to find a hotdog without nitrates at any supermarket that isn't a Whole Foods or such, its nearly impossible. Now days I can find one or two brands, but only more recently.

It's okay citizen; you are only a mortal.
Well obesity is pretty sad in our informed societies. I don't think it is easy to condone one practice or another, but if you watch some food related movies, you can see how much these huge food corporations make off making "unhealthy" food.

All that I know is that I select my food carefully (vegetables, fruit and water) and go once in a while for some pleasure. I don't think the government should regulate what we're able to eat, but if people aren't able to feed themselves correctly, shouldn't someone tell them so?

I think a more feasible solution would be to regulate the market better. Currently government intervention in the form of subsidies and a lack of updated inspection procedures and guidelines keeps the prices of unhealthy foods artifically low. Shifting those subsidies to healthier foods with more stringent guidelines will increase the availability of wholesome foods without curtailing consumer choice.

[abijnk]

I think a more feasible solution would be to regulate the market better. Currently government intervention in the form of subsidies and a lack of updated inspection procedures and guidelines keeps the prices of unhealthy foods artifically low. Shifting those subsidies to healthier foods with more stringent guidelines will increase the availability of wholesome foods without curtailing consumer choice.

I'd say you're on to something here.

[SydneyDev]

I think a more feasible solution would be to regulate the market better. Currently government intervention in the form of subsidies and a lack of updated inspection procedures and guidelines keeps the prices of unhealthy foods artifically low. Shifting those subsidies to healthier foods with more stringent guidelines will increase the availability of wholesome foods without curtailing consumer choice.

You don't know that. No one can predict what will happen when you pull on one thread in something as complicated as the US economy.

Maybe all you do is cause a lot of farmers to go bankrupt and kill themselves, and people ignore your fresh veggies. Maybe you do nothing, some innovative company comes up with a new kind of fries that doesn't make you fat.

All we know for sure is that in the long term, if you continually regulate stuff you end up like Russia.

[skunk]

You don't know that. No one can predict what will happen when you pull on one thread in something as complicated as the US economy.

Maybe all you do is cause a lot of farmers to go bankrupt and kill themselves, and people ignore your fresh veggies. Maybe you do nothing, some innovative company comes up with a new kind of fries that doesn't make you fat.

All we know for sure is that in the long term, if you continually regulate stuff you end up like Russia.What a ridiculous argument: Iscariot is talking about removing hidden subsidies which themselves are skewing the market in favour of unhealthy foods, not adding regulation. You might at least read the post you are responding to.

[SydneyDev]

What a ridiculous argument: Iscariot is talking about removing hidden subsidies which themselves are skewing the market in favour of unhealthy foods, not adding regulation. You might at least read the post you are responding to.

It's you who need to work on your reading comprehension. He wanted to shift the subsidies from unhealthy to healthy foods, not remove them altogether.

[skunk]

Perhaps, but I'm still entirely unclear about the alleged similarity to Russia.

[Zombie Acorn]

I don't think of labeling all fat people a result of "laziness and bad habits" is accurate. Most yes, but not all.

I was 210 when I was my fittest (running 30-40 miles a week and 4-6 marathons a year) and eating a reasonable diet. That weight is obese for my hieght (5' 10").

Where do laziness and bad habits fit in there?


Little late here, but a proper fat vs lean msucle mass is the only way t judge obesity. Bmi is not accurate at all. My prime weight is also around 210, peoples frames are built different so some carry more bone weight.

[leekohler]

Little late here, but a proper fat vs lean msucle mass is the only way t judge obesity. Bmi is not accurate at all. My prime weight is also around 210, peoples frames are built different so some carry more bone weight.

Agreed. BMI is a bunch of crap.

[abijnk]

Agreed. BMI is a bunch of crap.

As someone else pointed out, it should really come down to how you look, how you feel, and you overall health. Not some number.

[Zombie Acorn]

As someone else pointed out, it should really come down to how you look, how you feel, and you overall health. Not some number.

Yes, numbers are way too generic to mean anything. Even when I was in the best shape of my life we had to do personal wellness for freshmen year in college. The lady recalculated 4 times because it showed me as obese (it was some calculation seperate from bmi even). When it came through the 4th time she just shrugged and was basically like I guess you are obese. When people stop thinking and just trust numbers it's a scary day, unfortunately that's where we are heading.

[Brien]

For starters, I would be thrilled to see a law requiring all food chains to disclose nutritional information. Lobbyists oppose this, and for good and obvious reason. Nobody who knew and understood the numbers would eat would eat there.

I was recently out in some of the outlying suburbs of the Bay Area helping a friend shop for furniture, and we found the only thing readily available for lunch in the area was a Chili's.

Chili's, at least in California, has started including a nutritional insert in its menus.

O.

M.

G.

Not only did just ordering a burger net you 1600 Calories, but it contained 4,000 mg, FOUR GRAMS, 2/3 over your RDA, of sodium. The "ancho chili sauce" was essentially an asston of commercial chili powder plus salt plus commercial barbecue sauce.

It was a horror. And most people across suburban America consider this a step above the fast food they normally eat.

The problem is "the market" has worked too well. It has satisfied people's instinctive tastes for what should be scarce dietary ingredients in such abundance that it is literally killing us. "Market" worshippers just shrug because they are zealots, but we need to understand this as a tool for accomplishing tangible ends, not an autopilot solution for all human conditions. Capitalism is a wonderful tool for solving certain problems, but I see "the market" as being like one of those old sci-fi computers that is smart enough to solve anything, but has no human emotions, so (SURPRISE!) it goes out of control and decides that the most sensible way to solve the problem posed to it is to kill the entire human race.

We have to regain control. We have to stop pretending that "the market" can tell us what's right. We have to gather and evaluate information for ourselves. We have to look at the outcomes and adjust the conditions accordingly. Rampant obesity is the least of the problems that could be thereby addressed.

Here in California it's mandatory for restaurants to display the calorie count of foods. And you know what I've found? At nearly every restaurant, almost every item on the menu is at least 1,500 calories.

Not to mention the 2,000+mg of sodium. I cannot understand how almost anything that comes in a can or on a plate has SO. MUCH. SALT.

It's sickening. Even with the push for greener and healthier food, food as a whole is still terribly unhealthy in the US.

I concur. Slightly on topic, a lot of people who are against government intervention overlook that the heavy hand of the government is already involved at a number of levels. Government subsidization of food is almost an inversion of the food pyramid, with nearly 75% going to meat and dairy, 10% to sugar and alcohol, ~15% to grains and less than 1% to vegetables. At the very least we need enough government intervention to offset the damage done by government intervention.



I wish I could say that this horrified me, but I worked at an Outback Steakhouse for about three years. Our appetizer Aussie Cheese Fries packed in over 2 000 calories, and our Blooming Onion contained over 70 grams of fat, or 108% of your RDA.


Amen.

I recall that Outback has some of the most unhealthy food in America. I think those fries have close to 3,000 calories, actually. I think the only thing that beats it is the Reeses Shake at Baskin Robins: A large is over 3,600 calories! (Not to mention it has like 80 ingredients, of which I can pronounce... two?)

[Zombie Acorn]

Here in California it's mandatory for restaurants to display the calorie count of foods. And you know what I've found? At nearly every restaurant, almost every item on the menu is at least 1,500 calories.

Not to mention the 2,000+mg of sodium. I cannot understand how almost anything that comes in a can or on a plate has SO. MUCH. SALT.

It's sickening. Even with the push for greener and healthier food, food as a whole is still terribly unhealthy in the US.



I recall that Outback has some of the most unhealthy food in America. I think those fries have close to 3,000 calories, actually. I think the only thing that beats it is the Reeses Shake at Baskin Robins: A large is over 3,600 calories! (Not to mention it has like 80 ingredients, of which I can pronounce... two?)

people don't want healthy food they just want to think they do. Trial after trial will show people goin with the health food but when marketed it's a flop. I know for a fact mcdonalds was duped into the McLean burger which was a disaster. Bottom line is it's your choice, the day the government tells me what I eat is the day I don't want to be an american.

[bobber205]

people don't want healthy food they just want to think they do. Trial after trial will show people goin with the health food but when marketed it's a flop. I know for a fact mcdonalds was duped into the McLean burger which was a disaster. Bottom line is it's your choice, the day the government tells me what I eat is the day I don't want to be an american.

The government subsidizing the CORRECT foods and helping people, but not making people, eat healthier is not telling them what to eat.

[leekohler]

people don't want healthy food they just want to think they do. Trial after trial will show people goin with the health food but when marketed it's a flop. I know for a fact mcdonalds was duped into the McLean burger which was a disaster. Bottom line is it's your choice, the day the government tells me what I eat is the day I don't want to be an american.

The government already does. It's called the FDA.

[.Andy]

Little late here, but a proper fat vs lean msucle mass is the only way to judge obesity. Bmi is not accurate at all. My prime weight is also around 210, peoples frames are built different so some carry more bone weight.
Agreed. BMI is a bunch of crap.
BMI is a bell curve just like more natural populations. For the majority of people who walk through the door it's an ideal quick, accurate, and easy assessment. There is strong and real correlations between increasing BMI (on the population level) and risks for cardiovascular disease, cancer, musculoskeletal disease etc on the population level. Which is where and why the healthy range BMI is aimed for clinically.

What people refer to when they attack BMI are those at the top and bottom of the bell curve which make up less than 10% of people. It's easy to tell who is full of muscle and who isn't. And it's never down to "heavy bones" (although people will claim this). The problem isn't the BMI itself. It's a misunderstanding and misapplication of it's use.

edit: that's not to say there aren't better ways of measuring body fat percentages out there just not one's that are as easily applied. Although hip:waist circumference is increasingly being used in addition to BMI. You dr can tell if you're built like an athlete.

[thepawn]

people don't want healthy food they just want to think they do. Trial after trial will show people goin with the health food but when marketed it's a flop. I know for a fact mcdonalds was duped into the McLean burger which was a disaster. Bottom line is it's your choice, the day the government tells me what I eat is the day I don't want to be an american.

I remember even the "second round" a few years back where there was a big outcry and McD's tried to insert more "healthy" food items on the menu (better salads, etc)...while it made people "happier" no one ordered them - they all still ordered cheeseburgers and bigmacs.

[OutThere]

BMI is a bell curve just like more natural populations. For the majority of people who walk through the door it's an ideal quick, accurate, and easy assessment. There is strong and real correlations between increasing BMI (on the population level) and risks for cardiovascular disease, cancer, musculoskeletal disease etc on the population level. Which is where and why the healthy range BMI is aimed for clinically.

What people refer to when they attack BMI are those at the top and bottom of the bell curve which make up less than 10% of people. It's easy to tell who is full of muscle and who isn't. And it's never down to "heavy bones" (although people will claim this). The problem isn't the BMI itself. It's a misunderstanding and misapplication of it's use.

edit: that's not to say there aren't better ways of measuring body fat percentages out there just not one's that are as easily applied. Although hip:waist circumference is increasingly being used in addition to BMI. You dr can tell if you're built like an athlete.

Well said. People like to trash on BMI when it can clearly be used as an important indicator even if it has limitations.

If you distrust BMI statistics enough to not believe that Americans are fatter than the rest of the world (and unhealthily so), then you haven't left the country.


If you get the kids meal, usually.

Unfortunately in the U.S. the kids menu is generally full of great healthy things like cheeseburgers, chicken fingers, chicken nuggets, french fries, hot dogs. Start 'em young!

[63dot]

Just curious as to where everyone stands on obesity. I don't know about countries besides the US but walking down a New York City street is becoming harder to do. I never really paid attention to it but I would say 65% of people in NYC are either overweight or obese. I'm neither of the two but have had phases in my life where I was mildly overweight.

I don't think obesity doesn't make you a bad person, but, I don't approve of it. I'm a little more understanding in terms of obesity running in a family, but it's not entirely a genetic problem. Obesity can be beat.

What do you guys think?

I am not one for the deadly seven sins because I realize that there are many things that are bad for you, far more than seven. But to make a list, obesity is linked to early death via heart disease, stroke, and diabetes. I am 5'6 1/2" and I was 135-145 pounds most of the time until I hit age 28.

I ballooned up to 170-190s in my 30s and 40s and I am desperately working right now to get into my 160s if I am lucky. I would be thrilled right now to get to 165 and hold it there and while not "skinny", it would be a lifetime achievement to hold that weight for the rest of my life.

If I have had a sin or nemesis, these last 17 years has been my weight. No longer can I eat anything I want and never tip the scales over 145 pounds. I can't think of any personal topic that enters my mind more than this.

Is it a sin?

If destroying your body and shortening your life greatly is a sin, then yes.

Is being an extra 20-50 pounds also a style here in the states? Yes to that, too. But a style that kills one so early is not such a good thing. What if meth was a style? Maybe it is among many and few will argue that's a good thing.

Right now, I am 174 pounds and working that extra, hardest 10 pounds. The real challenge will be to keep that extra pair of spare tires off my body.

[Iscariot]

Unfortunately in the U.S. the kids menu is generally full of great healthy things like cheeseburgers, chicken fingers, chicken nuggets, french fries, hot dogs. Start 'em young!

He said less than 1 000 calories, not healthy ;)
Right now, I am 174 pounds and working that extra, hardest 10 pounds. The real challenge will be to keep that extra pair of spare tires off my body.

If you want to keep the scale at 165 or less permanently, then I suggest dropping down to at least 160 if not lower. Once you stop dieting and exercising at the intensity you are at there will be an inevitable weight gain as your body adjusts and finds a new equilibrium (http://www.equilibriumfans.com/Corinthian-misc_kata.gif). You also might want to switch to shorter but higher intensity workouts once you've lost the weight to maintain it with less time investment. I'm sure you can do it! :D

[opinioncircle]

I think a more feasible solution would be to regulate the market better. Currently government intervention in the form of subsidies and a lack of updated inspection procedures and guidelines keeps the prices of unhealthy foods artifically low. Shifting those subsidies to healthier foods with more stringent guidelines will increase the availability of wholesome foods without curtailing consumer choice.

I agree with you. But the food corporations have so much money and influence that it is close to impossible to enforce new regulations to purge the market. When you take a look at food regulations in the US and Europe or Canada, it's like day and night. I'm not saying anything can be consumed in the US, but that's pretty close.

In my opinion it's also a matter of feeling good. You can't feed your kids french fries, cheeseburgers on a daily basis, put them to bed at 10pm and expect them to feel good and do well in classes the next day. It's a whole process...

[Don't panic]

Should you generalize more?

Frankly, that comment is just wrong...if no adults cared what other adults thought, why do we have all these debates? Not to mention listen to someone elses thoughts on an issue, can shape your thoughts on it with new knowledge

"No one want advice, only corroboration" - John Steinbeck

[munkees]

The BMI is BS, pure BS.

I am 5'9, when I was in the Army, running 5 days a week some time 2 times a day no less than 5 miles a run, with all the other physical Training I did on top, I was about 180lbs.

the BMI said I was overweight, but I was not, I wore medium clothes and uniforms.

However, what the BMI is for me, an indication that I need to stay some kind of boundary's. I take the BMI index and add 10lbs to make it real world.

I am not really fat now, but I could do with shedding some lbs, and that is not easy (I am injured from combat so running is out, so is biking, I can still walk though, weights are not good for my back now).

I feel for people who try, it is not easy, and basically is a lifestyle change to be able to shed the weight and get healthy (exercise). I am married, the wife does not help much here, she drink lots of coke (I love coke), so all the bad stuff is always available. To conquer I have to forsake, and that is no easy feat, takes a strong will and discipline, and not every one has that, or we would or be the top of what ever we do.

I also have an under-active thyroid, but I not using that as an excuse.

My goal is life is not weight driven, but endurance, I want to be able to walk any where I choose over any terrain, carrying a pack, and it not to be a challenge. I also want to have a flatter stomach, so that is my focus, the weight means nothing, being healthily and fit means a lot more, to look good and healthy = more important than weight numbers.

[anjinha]

The BMI is not BS. The problem with BMI is that it doesn't distinguish between muscle and fat. Since muscle weights more than fat it's very possible that a very fit person has a higher BMI than a fat person. But as long as we keep that in mind the BMI is a good tool to help evaluate most people's ideal weight.

[Badandy]

Okay, I haven't been in the thread in a while.

The responsibility is entirely with the consumer. If there wasn't such a large market for crap food, companies wouldn't make it. It's not a company's responsibility to lose money making a product nobody buys.

I generally agree with this. Iscariot makes a valid point that he wants subsidies to be shifted from where they currently are, but I really think it's ultimately up to the consumer. People with proper nutritional knowledge will usually gladly pay an extra couple bucks for healthy food, so changing the price of healthy food in relation to unhealthy food through shifting subsidies will only get people to eat healthier as a financial decision rather than understanding the reasons behind it. Better than nothing, but still...

That is one of the biggest fallacies out there. Just like smoking addiction is totally the fault of the smoker not the company that adds tons of chemicals to cigarettes:rolleyes:

It is.

The government finally got off its duff and is in control of tobacco, now it's time to go after the food companies.

Control tobacco? The notion that the government actually cares about reducing tobacco usage enough to cut into tax revenue is laughable.


You also might want to switch to shorter but higher intensity workouts once you've lost the weight to maintain it with less time investment. I'm sure you can do it! :D

Great advice. In my experience, doing this not only gets your muscles stronger but gives you a cardio workout at the same time.

One of the benefits to lifting weights that sometimes gets lost in the shuffle is its effect on the rest of your day/night. People see they've burned 300 calories on a machine and it seems dismal, but their metabolism, as a result of the exercising they did and the muscle repair that needs to be done, is ramped up for up to 24 hours after you've stopped exercising. You will be burning calories while resting at a higher rate than someone who didn't exercise. This is huge. Involving larger muscle groups, or just any muscle groups at all if you don't lift weights now, is really important to create a comprehensive plan for getting healthier and feeling better the whole day.

[Iscariot]

Great advice. In my experience, doing this not only gets your muscles stronger but gives you a cardio workout at the same time.

One of the benefits to lifting weights that sometimes gets lost in the shuffle is its effect on the rest of your day/night. People see they've burned 300 calories on a machine and it seems dismal, but their metabolism, as a result of the exercising they did and the muscle repair that needs to be done, is ramped up for up to 24 hours after you've stopped exercising. You will be burning calories while resting at a higher rate than someone who didn't exercise. This is huge. Involving larger muscle groups, or just any muscle groups at all if you don't lift weights now, is really important to create a comprehensive plan for getting healthier and feeling better the whole day.

Additionally, your body's fuel of choice for inactivity is fat. This is why a body builder can be lean with very little cardio, and a marathon runner can still have a body fat percentage in the double digits.

[Badandy]

Additionally, your body's fuel of choice for inactivity is fat. This is why a body builder can be lean with very little cardio, and a marathon runner can still have a body fat percentage in the double digits.

I've tried this inactivity tactic every day for the past week (about 24 hours per day) and I don't seem to be getting the physique I want.