Apple Demands Microsoft Pull Laptop Hunter Ads [Archive] - Page 4

CrazyAfrican

Jul 17, 2009, 09:15 AM

You don't seem to get the ads at all. They're not just about prices, they're about CHOICE *and* prices. Sure, a MBP 17" isn't comparable with an $800 Dell but the point is that the customer wanted a 17" laptop, and Apple doesn't have any 17" laptops other than the MBP. If the customer wants a sub $1000 notebook, all they have is the bloody whitebook with its thumbnail sized screen and jumbo pixels. None of the laptop hunters wanted a 13" so they had to compare with whatever Apple had to offer in terms of 15" and up, and all they have in that range is MBP 15"/17".

So when is the comparison "fair"? Should Apple's competitors be forced to only compare to the 13" whitebook because that's the only consumer laptop Apple can be arsed to produce?

What do you think PCs ship with? A bare bones installation of the most basic version of Windows? All computers come loaded with a bunch of toybox applications for managing photos, creating DVDs and all that hobbyist crap. The value of iLife is absolutely zero to me personally, I'm on my third Mac and I don't use any of the iLife apps (no, not even iPhoto). When I buy a new computer I install Adobe CS, Office and a bunch of audio apps and plugins and that's where I spend my time. All I need from the system itself is file management and a versatile media player.

Anuba, you are missing the point. The "customer" said, I want a large screen, power and a lot of memory for under $1000. Well, the price knocked out the 17" Macbook Pro. The power should have knocked out the laptop he chose in the end, but it didn't. That is where the lie resides. The laptop easily met all the requirements except the price. After the Macbook Pro was disqualified, the original requirements were no longer used. The result, the customer didn't get what he originally said he wanted. That is the whole formula for these ads. Start with lofty requirements at an impossible price for those requirements. Exclude the Mac because of the ridiculous price requirement with those specs. Then immediately stop using those requirements.

They say that they got what they wanted. That means that they either never wanted power and RAM (that is not old and on a slow architecture), or wanted the money from Microsoft, but didn't actually care about meeting the spec requirements other than screen size, or they lied and didn't get what they actually wanted.

As for finding no use for iLife, you are in the minority. You also can't say that Windows machines come with apps like iLife and then say iLife doesn't matter or count. Many use iLife. iLife is light years ahead of what comes bundled with Windows. iLife integrates all your media in an elegant fashion. You "don't use iLife",so how are you qualified to talk about it in comparison to Windows bundles?

belvdr

Jul 17, 2009, 09:18 AM

Are you serious here? A vast majority of consumer 15" laptops have 1280x800 displays, rarely do you come across a 1440x900 display in a 15".

I would have agreed with this until I visited HP's and Dell's homepage for the home laptops. Strangely, it appears they modified the resolution to 1366x768 now, and there are some 1440x900 screens in there.

I do recall the 1280x800 displays being the norm. Actually I have a Dell Inspiron 1525 with that resolution.

uberamd

Jul 17, 2009, 09:21 AM

I would have agreed with this until I visited HP's and Dell's homepage for the home laptops. Strangely, it appears they modified the resolution to 1366x768 now, and there are some 1440x900 screens in there.

I do recall the 1280x800 displays being the norm. Actually I have a Dell Inspiron 1525 with that resolution.

Ah finally they are making a transition into higher resolution screens. However there are still copious amounts of Macbook Pro 15" owners who b***h because they think they should have a 1680x1050 display on their 15".

belvdr

Jul 17, 2009, 09:24 AM

Ah finally they are making a transition into higher resolution screens. However there are still copious amounts of Macbook Pro 15" owners who b***h because they think they should have a 1680x1050 display on their 15".

Very true. :) I wish I had a Mac right now, regardless of resolution. Home ownership tends to deplete the entertainment funds.

Mattie Num Nums

Jul 17, 2009, 10:02 AM

What I'm saying, if you feel like reading, is that for some reason ( i think we know why ) macs don't have the same track record for falling apart that many many PC makers computers do.

Powerbook G4 1.5/1.33 Lower Memory Slot Failure
iBook G4 Video Distortion Recall
Macbook 13" Temperature Sensor Failure/Random Shutdown
eMac Video Scrambled Video Recall
PowerbookG4/iBook/Macbook/Macbook Pro Battery Recalls
Powerbook G4 1.5/1.67 Video Distortion Recall
Macbook Pro Video Card Recall
Power Mac G4 Power Supply Recall
iMac G4 non ALS Power Supply Recall
iMac G4 non ALS Video Distrotion Recall

etc.. etc.. etc..

Be careful about what you say. I love Apple but I am no fool. Being a Genius for almost 3 years, the bulk of our work was fixing Apple Repair Extension Programs (REP).

uberamd

Jul 17, 2009, 10:06 AM

Powerbook G4 1.5/1.33 Lower Memory Slot Failure
iBook G4 Video Distortion Recall
Macbook 13" Temperature Sensor Failure/Random Shutdown
eMac Video Scrambled Video Recall
PowerbookG4/iBook/Macbook/Macbook Pro Battery Recalls
Powerbook G4 1.5/1.67 Video Distortion Recall
Macbook Pro Video Card Recall
Power Mac G4 Power Supply Recall
iMac G4 non ALS Power Supply Recall
iMac G4 non ALS Video Distrotion Recall

etc.. etc.. etc..

Be careful about what you say. I love Apple but I am no fool. Being a Genius for almost 3 years, the bulk of our work was fixing Apple Repair Extension Programs (REP).

Mac's break, but PC break more it seems. At work, I warranty PC hardware almost on a daily basis during the school year. Our faculty/staff Mac's in circulation are problem free. We just got 2 new Unibodies in (13" and 15") a few days ago as well that we will be distributing.

RTee

Jul 17, 2009, 10:24 AM

you do know what Apple is famous for, no?

sure do, nice to see some originality from MS..

Mattie Num Nums

Jul 17, 2009, 10:36 AM

Mac's break, but PC break more it seems. At work, I warranty PC hardware almost on a daily basis during the school year. Our faculty/staff Mac's in circulation are problem free. We just got 2 new Unibodies in (13" and 15") a few days ago as well that we will be distributing.

You also have to look at the numbers. At my job we have a 300:1 ratio macs to PC's and our techs are just as busy with the Macs. Its not necessarily the hardware but a lot of the time the integration with being part of an enterprise.

I remember though one day at the Apple Store we had over 50 iMac G4 non ALS computers awaiting repair for power supply/logic board fixes. That was rather disturbing. I think the iPod/Laptop Battery recalls, Emac REP, and iMac REP's were the biggest nightmares we faced. Apple makes amazing computers but I do think that the numbers are about equal with issues. Considering also the fact that almost all the components in a Mac are the same found in almost every PC.

mcaruso95

Jul 17, 2009, 10:37 AM

Mattie Num Nums

Jul 17, 2009, 10:40 AM

My take on it that as always Microsoft executive lies on stage to get a crowd reaction and general "feel good" about the direction his ****** company is going.

I have been plagued with using Windows for years as many businesses (including mine) use software with no Mac or other OS equivalents.

Luckily I was able to switch to a Mac at home and am very happy.

Remarks like this are idiotic. Microsoft is more than Windows. Exchange runs the business world and does it well. People need to get off the whole Windows = Microsoft crap. Also as a corp. Apple and Microsoft internally are very similar you'd be surprised.

Eidorian

Jul 17, 2009, 11:00 AM

Mattie Num Nums I think you're talking about the iMac G5 non-ALS and not the G4.

RangerXML

Jul 17, 2009, 11:22 AM

Superdelphinus

Jul 17, 2009, 11:27 AM

Microsoft is no longer financially in a position to strong-arm Apple and they know it

bonkers

tnash

Jul 17, 2009, 12:18 PM

http://www.pcworld.com/article/159521/10_ways_microsofts_retail_stores_will_differ_from_apple_stores.html?tk=rel_news

jettredmont

Jul 17, 2009, 01:24 PM

OF COURSE Microsoft's ads would be about OLD Apple Macbooks! People don't just create ads on the spot and air them the same day. They have to be recorded, edited, and a whole lot of streamlining. So of course these ads would include old macs as they were made BEFORE the mac refreshed. Therefore, at the time the ad was videotaped, those prices and models were current. Yes, Microsoft aired them late, but why waste money redoing something just because your competitor decides to change a little....

Ummm ... because if you continue to air those ads with old data you are violating advertising rules and subject to fines?

If you don't want your ad campaign to be at the mercy of another company's pricing whims, you don't include the other company's pricing information in your ad, or make absolutely clear that the prices were only accurate as of a particular date in the past (the latter is legally more risky; you are still fairly likely to be subjected to fines in some instances and jurisdictions).

IMHO, Apple has apparently notified Microsoft of the descrepancy; MS's COO has admitted such on tape. Anyone who sees the particular MS Laptop Hunters ad aired on their local TV should file a complaint with the FCC. It would go something like "Microsoft is airing an ad stating that Apple is selling their 15" MacBook Pro for $1999 with 2GB of RAM, yet Apple offers their 15" MacBook Pro for $1699 with 4GB of RAM."

It's simple, folks. If you don't like MS lying about things, file a complaint with the FCC and they will get fined. That's the only way to make them stop.

On the other hand, if these ads are web-only (which I had thought they were; I don't have a TV so I don't know if they air on TV) then MS is likely to escape any fines because the FCC doesn't control web ads. You can lie your face off in a web ad with little or no repercussions.

ShiftyPig

Jul 17, 2009, 01:26 PM

Anuba, you are missing the point. The "customer" said, I want a large screen, power and a lot of memory for under $1000. Well, the price knocked out the 17" Macbook Pro. The power should have knocked out the laptop he chose in the end, but it didn't. That is where the lie resides. The laptop easily met all the requirements except the price. After the Macbook Pro was disqualified, the original requirements were no longer used. The result, the customer didn't get what he originally said he wanted. That is the whole formula for these ads. Start with lofty requirements at an impossible price for those requirements. Exclude the Mac because of the ridiculous price requirement with those specs. Then immediately stop using those requirements.

The term power is subjective. Does the PC have enough "power" for video editing? Yes. Is it the most powerful laptop on the market? No, but that isn't the basis.

Mac's break, but PC break more it seems.

I have owned two uMB's and both had to be returned to repair massive technical issues within the first 30 days. I have a PC laptop from 2004 that, with the exception of the battery I refuse to replace, has worked perfectly.

This thread needs to be locked - it's turned into a farce. Some of the poor arguments put forward in here are an absolute disgrace. I love my Macs, but if having some objectivity regarding MS makes me a troll then this board is an embarrassment.

Colrath

Jul 17, 2009, 01:26 PM

ShiftyPig

Jul 17, 2009, 01:31 PM

Not to double post, but this is exactly what I mean:

If you don't like MS lying about things, file a complaint with the FCC and they will get fined.

THE ADS AREN'T LYING!!!!!! The models pictured cost that much. Newer models that carry different model numbers, not pictured, cost less.

Also, the ads never mention specific pricing. They are worded in a fashion that the pricing discussion in every ad is still 100% accurate with regards to the big picture of Mac prices.

I would like you to point out which of these statements is a lie in the context of the ad (which is what the FCC cares about):

"For under a thousand dollars they only have one model..."
—Lauren
"For under two grand this is the best Apple [computer]; it only has 2 Gigabytes of RAM"
—Sheila
"For a thousand dollars..." "We can't get a Mac."
—Matt and Olivia
"This mac—is two thousand dollars—and that is before adding anything"
—Lauren and Sue

belvdr

Jul 17, 2009, 01:34 PM

Really hate the Ads. Who wouldn't pick up a free laptop as long as they didn't get ab MBP? Far to missleading.

Argumenativly, Apple did ask for it. I just dislike MS ads in general, it's like they feed off misinformation and BS.

They all do. Each party has its limitations and weaknesses, and they aren't going to tell all details.

Stinkfist69

Jul 17, 2009, 01:41 PM

Well Apple does this too in ads. For example the one where they said ALL Windows machines will have problems and that their macs won't. Well I know plenty of Windows users without problems and a few Macs who have had problems. Either way, both companies lie.

jettredmont

Jul 17, 2009, 01:53 PM

LOL, legal department demanded that MS stop the ads because they're misleading now. Apple dropped the price of its notebooks so the ads are no longer accurate...'cause we know that $100 price drop is enough to actually compete with Windows based notebooks.

You sure do believe MS propaganda!

For instance, the "$100" price drop is a figment of the MS COO's fervent imagination; the actual price drop was $300 ($1999 to $1699) on the offending ad.

Does it compete well with Windows notebooks? You can take your MS COO's word that it doesn't compete, or instead take the word of various well-established market research organizations which say Apple's market share is either rising or flat right now. That's hardly not competing.

So, yes, the $300 price drop in Mac laptops was more than enough for it to actually compete with Windows-based notebooks.

But, please. Don't let silly things like facts get in the way of your rampant MS fanboism.

jettredmont

Jul 17, 2009, 02:13 PM

Not to double post, but this is exactly what I mean:

THE ADS AREN'T LYING!!!!!! The models pictured cost that much. Newer models that carry different model numbers, not pictured, cost less.

Is it clear from watching the ad that MS's shill is talking about an old computer?

No. Thus, they are deceptive.

Also, the ads never mention specific pricing. They are worded in a fashion that the pricing discussion in every ad is still 100% accurate with regards to the big picture of Mac prices.

Huh? I distinctly recall seeing prices shown AND commented on in the ads. In fact, your quotes below belie your point above. They clearly mention and discuss price specifically on the Mac laptops.

I would like you to point out which of these statements is a lie in the context of the ad (which is what the FCC cares about):

"For under a thousand dollars they only have one model..."
—Lauren
"For under two grand this is the best Apple [computer]; it only has 2 Gigabytes of RAM"
—Sheila
"For a thousand dollars..." "We can't get a Mac."
—Matt and Olivia
"This mac—is two thousand dollars—and that is before adding anything"
—Lauren and Sue

#2 and #4.

The $1699 Macbook Pro has 4GB of RAM. It costs materially less than $2000 before adding anything (like ... what, exactly?)

Again, when they were filmed, they were accurate. That is not the point. The point is that they are not accurate while they are being aired.

Think about it. You are claiming that I could film an ad today deriding HP's lineup (say, because they don't sell a laptop under $2000 which comes with 16Gb of memory), then air that ten years from now (presuming that laptops with 16GB of memory are given away in Cracker Jack boxes by that time) and it would be deemed as completely factual?

I am sorry, but the "world of the ad" is the world in which it airs, not that in which it was filmed. If you don't want the two to collide then you need to make sure you don't include materially volatile facts (and pricing of your competitor's products is a key one) without serious disclaimers.

This is ad marketing 101 stuff here, really. Not sure why it would cause a discussion.

Ever notice the 2 half-screens of 4-point type at the bottom of every comparative car commercial? That's for this very reason (because it is needed to firmly establish the "world of the ad" which points to volatile facts). And, you might note, car models and MSRP pricing change much more rarely than laptop models.

Normally, complaints to the FCC on deceptive advertising would yield nothing but a warning letter and a window for the company (MS) to remove its ads from circulation. However, given that the COO has already proclaimed his knowledge of the inaccuracy of the ads, that window should be deemed to have already started.

Again: if you don't want MS to get away with this crap, then send a note to the FCC. There's an online form to do it, and it will take well less than two minutes to do.

uberamd

Jul 17, 2009, 02:15 PM

I have owned two uMB's and both had to be returned to repair massive technical issues within the first 30 days. I have a PC laptop from 2004 that, with the exception of the battery I refuse to replace, has worked perfectly.

This thread needs to be locked - it's turned into a farce. Some of the poor arguments put forward in here are an absolute disgrace. I love my Macs, but if having some objectivity regarding MS makes me a troll then this board is an embarrassment.

Oh, well since you have had 2 issues then it must be clear that Mac's are worse quality than PC's, right? NO! Individual milage will vary! What works for one might not work for others, so quit acting like your example is definitive and the thread should now be locked since you got your 2 cents in.

CharBroiled20s

Jul 17, 2009, 02:15 PM

I can see you obviously disagree with me...no need to point out the fact that the company's name is apple. The ads dont give a comparison of what you are actually getting. I would like to see here is mac with processor, hard drive, screen size, etc and here is pc with... However if they did that it wouldn't be as effective for Microsoft. I just want them to actually say more than jeez these macs are expensive.

Okay I am not an apple fan boy, but thanks for the insult. My point is I see the ads as misleading. If you don't then just say so and state why you dont have to pick a fight with me. I am simply expressing my opinion thats all no more. I understand advertising, but I just feel that it is a little (perhaps not illegally so) misleading thats all. If you disagree fine.

Microsoft is a SOFTWARE company. They don't make the hardware so why would they focus on tech specs when they're simply pointing out the obvious. Feature for feature macs ARE more expensive. It's not necessarily a bad thing but hardware isn't Microsoft's "thing".

These are response ads to the "I'm a PC" Apple ads.. If Apple don't want the competition to fire back then they shouldn't start up with them.

The ads are generic, but they are not misleading... MICROSOFT DOESN'T MAKE THE HARDWARE - why would they wax eloquent about hardware they have nothing to do with???

Mini-FanBoy :-P

dejo

Jul 17, 2009, 02:18 PM

you do know what Apple is famous for, no?
I dunno, making crank calls? So, care to elaborate?

mcaruso95

Jul 17, 2009, 02:21 PM

Remarks like this are idiotic. Microsoft is more than Windows. Exchange runs the business world and does it well. People need to get off the whole Windows = Microsoft crap. Also as a corp. Apple and Microsoft internally are very similar you'd be surprised.

Replies like this are idiotic. Strike one for you. My business doesn't use Exchange. Strike two for you. I never said Windows was crap. Strike three for you. You're out *******.

belvdr

Jul 17, 2009, 02:27 PM

Replies like this are idiotic. Strike one for you. My business doesn't use Exchange. Strike two for you. I never said Windows was crap. Strike three for you. You're out *******.

So, if your business doesn't use Exchange, nobody else does? Exchange dominates in respect to messaging.

Norco

Jul 17, 2009, 02:28 PM

Oh, well since you have had 2 issues then it must be clear that Mac's are worse quality than PC's, right? NO! Individual milage will vary! What works for one might not work for others, so quit acting like your example is definitive and the thread should now be locked since you got your 2 cents in.

I've owned 3 Macs in my lifetime -- never had an issue with any of them. For every horror story there is success.

mcaruso95

Jul 17, 2009, 02:38 PM

So, if your business doesn't use Exchange, nobody else does? Exchange dominates in respect to messaging.

My business doesn't use it and I couldn't give two hoots about it.

Domination by anything from Microsoft is due to their well documented underhanded business practices, just like Intel.

If I remember the topic was about the alleged phone call which I already regard as suspect. No more stupid comments from anymore of you nice people out there.

belvdr

Jul 17, 2009, 02:45 PM

My business doesn't use it and I couldn't give two hoots about it.

Domination by anything from Microsoft is due to their well documented underhanded business practices, just like Intel.

If I remember the topic was about the alleged phone call which I already regard as suspect. No more stupid comments from anymore of you nice people out there.

I'm not sure what you're talking about in that last paragraph. Either way, you have no way of controlling another's opinion on an open forum. :)

What was said above is accurate. Microsoft isn't only about Windows, just as Apple is not just about OS X.

As for underhanded business practices, every company has them at some level. If you're anti-Microsoft due to their business practices, then one can only assume you dislike Intel too as you claim they have done the same. So, why do you support Intel with your purchases?

mcaruso95

Jul 17, 2009, 02:47 PM

belvdr

Jul 17, 2009, 02:49 PM

The Mac I bought is the first intel I ever owned, every PC prior to this was AMD, current PC at work, AMD. I wanted a Mac, so I bought what is offered, I don't regret it. I just hope I don't ever need help as it appears this community is more about bashing than constructive conversation.

If you don't like the community, why stay? I'm not wishing you away or anything; quite frankly it's the opposite. More opinions bring about more discussion.

EDIT: I should also add that you shouldn't let an Internet forum get you worked up. It used to do the same to me, but just let it slide.

mcaruso95

Jul 17, 2009, 02:53 PM

Consider me officially settled down and apologies all around.

My opinion on the original topic is still that it is a lie

belvdr

Jul 17, 2009, 02:54 PM

Consider me officially settled down and apologies all around.

My opinion on the original topic is still that it is a lie

No problem. :)

I doubt any lawyer did this either, no matter what company they are representing. They tend to follow these things up with letters.

belvdr

Jul 17, 2009, 03:00 PM

The Mac I bought is the first intel I ever owned, every PC prior to this was AMD, current PC at work, AMD. I wanted a Mac, so I bought what is offered, I don't regret it.

Well, as such some of us need to work in a Windows environment so must stick to those as well.

I just hope I don't ever need help as it appears this community is more about bashing than constructive conversation.

With almost 341,000 members, some bad sides will show. For the most part, if you need help, you'll get it. This thread obviously was not asking for help. ;)

wobudong

Jul 17, 2009, 03:09 PM

...there should be an apostrophe in it's.
I mean, you gotta have standards, as right as you indeed are.
On the other hand, I don't care for Microsoft either, so it's OK if you really want to write its. (Just not in public, OK?)

QUOTE=jav6454;8095368]As much as I despise Microsoft, Apple has not right to dictate MS what it can air on the ad front. Apple aired "Get a Mac" ads, and they were great. No MS is striking back. All Apple can do is watch and innovate on a new advertising method.

I can call the strike back questionable at best since many of those cheap PCs have no exact comparison to the Mac equivalent being compared. So they don't exactly tell the truth.

However, the ads work on less tech savy people. Its marketing. Apple took advantage of it, anyone can.

What Apple should really be doing is start changing their "Get a Mac" campaign ads and focus on something new and catchy; more so than "Laptop Hunters"[/QUOTE]

WeegieMac

Jul 17, 2009, 03:32 PM

The problem with Microsoft's adverts is that they don't actually advertise a Microsoft product, merely HP laptops ... and seem more set up with the specific purpose of having a dig at Apple and not promoting the benefit of their own product, Windows.

Zombie Acorn

Jul 17, 2009, 05:10 PM

I have a PC laptop (asus which I find to be a very nice company) and I still say the best laptop hunters commercial was the spoof with that bum trying to find one.

"Is this plastic? Im poor, but im not retarded" :D

jt2ga65

Jul 17, 2009, 05:31 PM

I dislike both the Apple "I'm a Mac" and Microsoft "Laptop Hunter" commercials. They are both complete garbage.

The truth is, if you want a PC, you will get a PC. If you want a Mac, you will get a Mac. There is no point going to look at the Mac if Microsoft is offering to buy you a laptop.

The ones that I thought were funny was the one where the hunter wanted to do video editing. At least the Mac comes with some fundamental software for doing video editing, where the Microsoft laptop did not. Not that the the stuff that comes with the Apple is any better than stuff you could get for free for the PC, but most people aren't smart enough to use shareware/Freeware.

I have both PC and Mac in my environment. It really depends on what I need to do that determines what tool I use. I will say that the PCs are easier to deal with when they break. Mac is a pain, unless you love talking to teenagers at the Genius Bar.

-jt2

kironin

Jul 17, 2009, 05:35 PM

Clearly CR is not comparing like features in judging what is "best". Else, why is a $1185 Dell being compared with a $600 Dell?

Have you ever looked at a Consumer Reports ?
You are missing the point. It isn't a matter of direct comparison. These are the recommended models with the best quality and value for what features they offer. Recommended buys are a summary of many models that were compared directly. So what they are saying is if you don't need or want the extra features of the $1185 Dell, then the $600 Dell is still recommended as a good value based on the criteria used if you want a 15 in screen.

A lot of people aren't using their laptops for anything more than what a netbook could handle.

zachlegomaniac

Jul 17, 2009, 06:32 PM

seashellz

Jul 17, 2009, 06:40 PM

what was APPLE thinking?
Why give the pondscum in Redmond the chance to gloat over what will become a detriment to them soon?

Reverse psychology-the ads are helping APPLE
(who wants to seem cheap or uncool- a few dozen lattes will make up the difference)
APPLE gets FREE publicity via these dolts-thus MS is complying with APPLEs wish, not their REQUEST

PT Barnum once said
"There is no such thing as BAD PUBLICITY"

Mr. Giver '94

Jul 17, 2009, 06:47 PM

I actually think Apple got more advertisement than Microsoft in those ads.

Every single one started off with the person/people going to check out the Macs. Clearly that shows that people want Apple computers and are forced to settle with other brands because of Apple's pricing. I know consumer appeal is extremely important in any industry, and these ads are a fail on Microsoft's part in my opinion because people don't want to buy PCs.

Just sayin'! :D

kernkraft

Jul 17, 2009, 06:49 PM

This is good news for Apple customers. Apple makes a great product, and, in turn, they have high price tags. There's nothing wrong with the competition, whether they're offering the same quality or not, saying, "Hey, that stuff is really pricey." All that's going to do is drive the prices down on Apple products. It's sort of basic macroeconomics. My work laptop that runs Vista sucks hard even though it's new, and I love my new aluminum 2.4 ghz MacBook, but hell, if the competition is going to knock the price down then great. What was it Austin Powers said? "Yay Capitalism!"

I also have a unibody MacBook. I'm talking about the prototype that does not have FireWire, but has an extremely poor screen and constant fan noise, noisy HDD and misaligned keys. Similarly to my CPU-whining Air and our 2.53GHz Pro with a faulty graphics card, it was extremely overpriced at the time. Did we get quality computers? Nope. Apart from the alu case with the trackpad, there is nothing to differentiate the hardware. Perhaps the lack of certain processors, BluRay and at the time FireWire (an Apple development, how ironic is that?!) and now Express Card. Apart from these, it's the same worker-abusing Chinese sweatshop stuff.

On the other hand, Apple became such a bully in the industry that gates never dared to dream of. 8 percent and having the most aggressive legal team in the sector? They should spend more money on quality testing and getting proper plastic for these portables and iPhones.

RTee

Jul 17, 2009, 06:52 PM

I will say that the PCs are easier to deal with when they break. Mac is a pain, unless you love talking to teenagers at the Genius Bar.

-jt2

Are you serious? where else in the world can you take your computer, under warranty or not and get free support from the company that actually makes it? Assuming of course you have a store near you.

Got a PC issue, you better be good at google searching, got an issue with your Mac take it to apple?

Does Asus have such a service? an Asus store? I think they would laugh in your face if you called them up and asked for half the service and support that Apple gives you.

Teenagers at the Genius bar? I'd put the average age at least at 25, but I don't see how that's relevant.

This phone call never happened as far as I'm concerned and ads are ads so I don't care either way about them.

kernkraft

Jul 17, 2009, 07:01 PM

Are you serious? where else in the world can you take your computer, under warranty or not and get free support from the company that actually makes it? Assuming of course you have a store near you.

Got a PC issue, you better be good at google searching, got an issue with your Mac take it to apple?

Does Asus have such a service? an Asus store? I think they would laugh in your face if you called them up and asked for half the service and support that Apple gives you.

Teenagers at the Genius bar? I'd put the average age at least at 25, but I don't see how that's relevant.

This phone call never happened as far as I'm concerned and ads are ads so I don't care either way about them.

You are just the man that I need! Perhaps you could tell me the reason for the constant fan noise in my MacBook (mentioned a few comments earlier), the high pitch sound in the Air and the occasional shut downs with our MacBook Pro. I called Apple, I went to the Apple Store, but in the store they haven't even realised, that the previous generation of 2GHz MBs did not have backlit keys. On the phone, they are searching from a website. I went through several calls, I think it's Apple's official Support site. You would get that level of service with anything these days. The only difference was that I didn't have to talk to India. Here, in the UK, Apple uses Italians, Greeks, Irish and Canadians (at least in my experience). God, those Italians are difficult to understand! Personally, I prefer Indian call centres.

Meanwhile, perhaps you could explain the reasons behind Safari being annoyingly slow and crashing. It's ironic to claim that PC owners need to search on the web to solve problems, when Macrumors has probably hundreds or thousands about technical glitches.

JuBe

Jul 17, 2009, 09:47 PM

I find myself to be incredulous to the truthfulness of this story. Hmmm. No paper proof or recording when you know they "record for quality insurance."

grr! Angry voice/tone to fit in with the rest of the posts... :mad: but actually they record for quality "assurance," not for insurance purposes. :cool: yep, i'm that cool.

NoSmokingBandit

Jul 17, 2009, 09:48 PM

I'll my experience with Dell tech support, just because i feel like typing.

I had the fan sensor die in a tower. It was still in warranty, so i called up Dell. They said they have to order the parts and they will call me when it comes it. Two days later i got a call letting me know they have the parts and wanted to know what times worked for me to get it fixed. The very next day the tech came out and replaced the parts, tested it out, and left. All i had to do is wait 3 days and make one phone call, all at home.
If a mac breaks here i have to call apple, set up and appointment with the Genius Bar, drive 40 minutes to the mall, and leave it there while they order the parts and fix it. Then i have to run another 40 minutes there to pick it up, and another 40 back home. To get a mac fixed i have to spend at least 2 1/2 hours on the road, wasting time and ergo wasting money.

gunraidan

Jul 17, 2009, 10:28 PM

This thread is absolutely ridiculous from both sides.

iEdd

Jul 17, 2009, 11:59 PM

2 Requests please:
1. Can MacRumors change the article to include the word allegedly? The more I think about this, the less believable it is.
2. Can the keyboard happy newbies, PLEASE read the whole article. It is obvious that a lot of you have just read the title and assumed that Apple don't like the Mac vs PC ads that Microsoft have used. If that were the case, then yes it would be hypocrisy, but the claim is false advertising, NOT "pull the ads because we don't like you attacking Macs".

Thanks :)

oban14

Jul 18, 2009, 01:16 AM

Nothing higher end? Hmm, digital audio out, illuminated keyboard, magnetic power cord, unibody aluminum construction, slot loading optical drive, etc come to mind...

Those are all bells and whistles, some are nicer to have than others, and there are plenty of laptops out there by other companies that offer other bells and whistles that a mac doesn't offer.

Some would say a slot loading optical drive that can't read/write blu rays is anything but high end, especially in 2009. Aluminum body macs dent incredibly easily. Don't get me wrong, I own several Apple products for a variety of reasons, and like any other consumer I weigh the bells and whistles of the different laptop companies, the OS, the compatability with my other computers, etc...

But don't think you're getting some special machine built by hipsters in Cupertino. It's commodity ram, hard drives, CPUs, circuit boards, and the same crap you'll find in any Dell from the same factory in China.

mandis

Jul 18, 2009, 07:47 AM

I'm really surprised to find people here who will defend apple's pricing scheme.

Could you please explain to me why the low end mac mini costs 639 euros ($900) in the EU?? http://www.e-shop.gr/show_per.phtml?id=PER.904083

It comes with no extras or accessories and compared to any other modern mac it is seriously handicaped and underpowered. If you compared it to a similarly priced desktop pc you'd be getting at least a high end Core 2 Quad or even the i7 920 with a state of the art GFX card and 3 times the amount RAM and HD capacity of the mini.

I was under the impression that the mini was created for those users who could not afford the more expensive imacs/ibooks. Steve Jobs even made that claim when he introduced the mini in one of apple's annual presentations. So what has changed??

I've been a mac user for 5 years now. I bought my powebook g4 in 2004 and i'm very happy with it. Back in the day of course i could justify the price tag on the uniqueness of the system's hardware and aesthetics. Simply put there was nothing else like it on the market. Nowdays however macs use generic x86 pc hardware like everyone else. So why the higher price tag???? It makes no sence to me and i wont be buying another mac untill the prices come down.

newyorksole

Jul 18, 2009, 08:14 AM

How does this story not seem strange to you guys? You actually think Apple would call Microsoft up and say that? This story doesn't seem at all unbelievable to you guys?

TripHop

Jul 18, 2009, 08:47 AM

I imagine a scenario where the actors in the ads - I do not believe they are real people - take the cash from the production company to buy the crappy Vista PC then as soon as the production company leaves they return the unopened PCs for a refund and march over to the Apple store to buy a Mac for a few hundred dollars more of their own money.

Who in their right mind would want to keep a Vista PC - especially if they got it 4 free?

charlituna

Jul 18, 2009, 08:54 AM

Wrong. The $1699 is with the Geforce 9400. Apple DOWNGRADED the MBP to make it cheaper (something that is frankly, massively under mentioned in this place).

1. doesn't change that there is not $1999 and $2499 as the price options anymore but the ad still claims as much
2. doesn't change that they may have actually been showing a 13 inch unibody macbook at that price (can't prove it since they don't show the port side but several sites claim it is true)

as for the downgrade, honestly how many folks outside of the tiny portion of ubergeeks on sites like this actually used the 9600 enough to make it so important compared to the added ram and I believe also added harddrive space and slight bump in the processor. I suspect not that many on that lower 15. the geeks probably sprung for the upper model that still has it. cause that's part of what geeks do. get the top of the line model whenever they can.

If that is the case Apple should have complained to whomever,who takes care of misleading advertising......Complaining direct to MS was not a good move.

actually complaining to MS is the only move they can use. because the ad agencies aren't going to listen to the competitor over the person giving them the money. So apple couldn't just call CPB and tell them anything. They would have to contact MS and point out the error and see what happens. which is more likely what happened over any whining. a gentleman's call to let MS correct their oversight (assuming no intentional ill intent by MS) and if they don't fix it, move on to the formal letter, lawsuit etc. Its the kind of move that is uncommon but not a total shock when you consider all the patent suits, Psystar etc that Apple Legal is dealing with right now

chrono1081

Jul 18, 2009, 10:02 AM

How does this story not seem strange to you guys? You actually think Apple would call Microsoft up and say that? This story doesn't seem at all unbelievable to you guys?

+1 this is completely made up. Companies do this all the time to boost morale.

ShiftyPig

Jul 18, 2009, 10:11 AM

Excellent mod work cleaning up the flamage in the thread.

If MS's COO said this in the same breath

Those are completely unscripted commercials.

then are we really supposed to believe the call claim? I would have hoped he had received a more important call than that in his business career.

Synthetickiller

Jul 18, 2009, 11:44 AM

I see a lot of crying over something that doesn't actually affect anyone here, unless you're a major stockholder in either company.

Who cares?

Wow, laptop hunter ads work, really? The economy sucks, people have no money. And you guys think its warranted and justified to spend $1000+ on a notebook to do nothing more than internet, document creation & music? No wonder something like this would come up. It's also no wonder Apple is lowering their prices.

I recently purchased a 2.1ghz c2d lenovo thinkpad. Dropped $50 on 4 gigs of ddr 2 and will probably spend another $150-$175 on a solid state 30gig - 60gig drive. The laptop cost $460 w/ shipping & tax, so that's $660 - $710 with all the upgrades. Apple can't compete with the performance of that laptop for the cost, bottom line. Plus I think the lenovo has a higher build quality, plus you're not limited to only a touch pad, those things suck.

hegor

Jul 18, 2009, 02:03 PM

Nothing to see here move along.

Laptop hunter ads suck.

Mac vs PC ads suck for that matter.

People will buy what they want, Apple will do well and be profitable. PCs will still outsell Macs, but will suck for everything except for gaming.

Stevamundo

Jul 18, 2009, 05:38 PM

IF Apple actually made that call to Microsoft, either it's the one of the most STUPIDEST OR BRILLIANT things that Apple has ever done.

Hear me out here. I saw those Ads and they're very dumb. About 95% of it are focus to say “We PCs are cheaper than Apples. So? NONE of those Ads NEVER REALLY gone into the quality of the PC itself.

So it might be a brilliant move by Apple pretending to be mad at Microsoft thus really encouraging Microsoft to make more of their stupid Ads.

On the other hand IF Apple was really mad at Microsoft and called them, that would have been about the most STUPIDEST thing that Apple has ever done. What in the hell does Apple expect anyway. Gates saying “Yes Mr. Jobs, anything that you want Mr. Jobs.” :rolleyes:

LowEnder

Jul 18, 2009, 06:22 PM

800+ posts later: people still believe that call was made?
simply not credible

Stevamundo

Jul 18, 2009, 06:51 PM

800+ posts later: people still believe that call was made?
simply not credible

You're probably right.

BongoBanger

Jul 18, 2009, 07:11 PM

800+ posts later: people still believe that call was made?
simply not credible

You're right. That denial from Apple has just sealed the issue.

...

Oh they haven't made one yet?

Oh dear.

iEdd

Jul 18, 2009, 07:14 PM

Apple could still be in the process of some internal searching, to see if an employee, completely unauthorised to make that call, made that call.

OR ruling out the possibility that someone at Apple made the call. Either way, they'd look stupid if they denied it if some low level employee made a call without going through proper protocol.

radesousa

Jul 18, 2009, 08:28 PM

jbernie

Jul 18, 2009, 09:16 PM

LOL.... this is amazing... what a waste of bandwidth over an alleged complaint by Apple. So far there's not been a shred of proof Apple made any complaint to Microsoft. Microsoft must be laughing at the uproar it's created. People are so gullible.

welcome to reality where the media report anything regardless of proof or proper research to confirm what they are saying.

Jethryn Freyman

Jul 18, 2009, 09:48 PM

Unfair of Apple to try to do that.

The ads are accurate, Apple needs to drop their prices.

Becordial

Jul 18, 2009, 09:59 PM

Ummm... Apple have been dropping prices.

And it's not unfair, because it never happened.

What's unfair is that we've got a complicit media who never really question enough, about much at all. And I have to say that's true of this piece and the media's unwavering reporting of any and all of the breathless claims made by companies including Apple.

Mac Kiwi

Jul 19, 2009, 12:34 AM

I would not be surprised if MS add a barb about it into their next ad. If they do, I will bet the ad was made before the call took place.

charlituna

Jul 19, 2009, 09:18 AM

Could you please explain to me why the low end mac mini costs 639 euros ($900) in the EU?? http://www.e-shop.gr/show_per.phtml?id=PER.904083

is it not an imported item. and do those not generally end up higher priced overseas.

I imagine a scenario where the actors in the ads - I do not believe they are real people - take the cash from the production company to buy the crappy Vista PC then as soon as the production company leaves they return the unopened PCs for a refund and march over to the Apple store to buy a Mac for a few hundred dollars more of their own money.

doubtful.

because the production company most likely paid them exactly as was declared, with the computer. and with no receipt and they probably ripped the box seal. so no receipt, open box etc and no one is going to take it back. It might even be tagged that it was a promo item. I remember my roommate getting an ipod from work that he couldn't return because Apple had them flagged as a goody bag item so only the original buyer (the company he worked for) could return them with the receipt.

double if they got a paycheck as well.

Ummm... Apple have been dropping prices.

And it's not unfair, because it never happened.

yes it did.

by tradition Apple revamps the line and either keeps the price point or raises it. this time they revamped and dropped all the computers but the white one between $100-300. making the prices of the 15 inch line not the ones in the ad. and there is some question that that was even a 15 that was showing and not a 13 inch. which would double the false claim.

rickbuddy72

Jul 19, 2009, 07:59 PM

Apple Computer's competitor created a weak competitive comparison advertisement in showing definitive price and product.

The comparison is no longer valid if the price or product changes.

If the price of the product is no longer what the Microsoft is claiming in their advertising, then the ad is false; moreover, illegal.

It's the law, look it up: 15 U.S.C. § 45.

Apple dropped the price, therefore Microsoft has to drop the ads: the ads are now false advertising.

Major advertisers, and their agencies usually avoid competitive advertising with such specificity for this reason.

Game Over.

Brian Richards

rickbuddy72

Jul 19, 2009, 08:14 PM

I'm no advertising or legal guru, but since the entire Mac lineup of laptops got revamped a few weeks ago, and some made cheaper, could the Laptop Hunter ads be construed as false advertising? I mean that in a legal sense. Some of them do quote a price on the Macs.

If in fact the call did go down, it was probably more like "stop running those false ads or we will sue you over it."

Here's how Im thinking of it. Imagine if McDonalds ran a commercial telling people that a Whopper cost 20 bucks. I got a funny feeling that would be a problem.

For the most part, you are correct.

One minor correction, Apple would not sue Microsoft, they would file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission, which is empowered to enforce laws against false advertising.

Generally, the FTC will review the case and if they find the complaint to be justified they will order the offender to cease and desist.

It is not unusual for a company to give an offending competitor a heads up and ask them to stop the advertising. Filing and answering such suits is very expensive and time consuming. It can take busy executives from both companies from their daily responsibilities.

Brian Richards

zey

Jul 19, 2009, 10:41 PM

Apple have a massive brand presence in the US. This is not the case in other countries. For example, Microsoft recaptured the top spot in a key brand recogniton survey in the UK from Google who are now third. Apple are ninth.
Same sort of thing in Australia too where, incidentally, these "I'm a Mac, I'm a PC" ads would actually be illegal, at least on broadcast television. Adverts here aren't allowed to make negative claims about their competitors, only positive claims about themselves.

Consequently, I can't remember the last time I've ever seen an Apple ad on the telly.

JAT

Jul 20, 2009, 01:22 AM

And on Vista or Windows 7 you have to bypass twice as many obstacles. There are UAC prompts and password prompts, there are IE and Google warnings about malicious sites, there are Outlook/Mail warnings about opening certain kinds of attachments...

I guess if every new user is compelled to head straight for a Russian porn/crack/serial/torrent site, click every false promise link and boldly bypass every warning on the way, it poses a problem, but otherwise no.

I've used Windows since 1992 and never got any kind of malware onto any of my machines even back when the door was wide open (Win 95/98). In order for it to happen on Vista or Win7 I'd have to actively want a malware infection in order to make it happen.

Use your brain and a healthy dose of caution and self preservation, don't be a daredevil, and you'll be fine. I.e. just approach Windows like you would anything else in life... unless you're one of those people who put on a radiation suit, a helmet and a gun holster when you go to the grocery store to pick up some bread.
I know this is a comparitively old post, but I have to comment, anyway.

You, sir, have absolutely no idea what a "new" user is like. According to this post, you're apparently a computer geek, like so many of us here. How on earth would you know what a non-geek is capable of ********** up? Even the IT guys who actually deal with idiot users come on the web and claim to not get it, after fixing the problems all day. Probably stress-related denial to try to keep sane.

"Use your brain". ROFL. These are users who would go through twice as many disclaimers as you say Vista provides (I've not used it, but seriously, that's a selling point??) and then lie about it, possibly without even understanding they are lying. Except then they complain about how many disclaimers and warnings they had to dismiss in the next breath.

You don't think they actually READ those warnings....do you?

mosx

Jul 20, 2009, 03:53 AM

People are saying these ads are "False advertising" and "illegal"?

Because Apple dropped the price?

Yeah, Apple did drop prices on two models while downgrading another model significantly to lower the price.

However!

Please show me one point in ALL of the ads where price is mentioned specifically. Show me one ad that Microsoft is currently running where someone says "this system is $1,999 and it only features this...".

The only vague comment in all of the ads is one made by the woman looking for a computer that is "good for cutting video". She said "this is the best Apple for under $2,000 and it only has 2GB of memory". She actually said "Apple" and didn't say "MacBook" "Mac" "MacBook Pro". The fact of the matter is that she could still be referring to no less than 4 different portable systems by Apple for under $2,000 that do still ship with only 2GB of RAM. The fact that she said "Apple" not specifying a single product, plus the fact that Best Buy and others still have the older models on display and are still clearing out stock means that these ads are far from "illegal". Saying they're "illegal" is about the same as saying the Earth is flat.

Everything else about the ads is completely true. You can't get a 17" notebook for under $1,000, you can't get any Apple notebook for under $700, Apple doesn't offer a single notebook thats good for gaming or even capable of playing blu-ray discs. And the final point of the ads is that you get much much more for much less by going with a PC. Believing Macs are a good value for the money is, again, like believing the Earth is flat.

Again, if you want to talk about dishonest ads and who has a claim for false advertisement, let's talk about those "Get a Mac" ads. Theres so many false and flat out BS claims in those ads that Microsoft could sue Apple into oblivion for it.

iEdd

Jul 20, 2009, 04:06 AM

She said "this is the best Apple for under $2,000 and it only has 2GB of memory".

The best "Apple" for under $2k has 4GB memory.

Ad says 2GB memory.

Following?

And the final point of the ads is that you get much much more for much less by going with a PC.

I dunno, the vibe I get from the ad is a screaming "I want the Mac, but it is too expensive so I will dump all my previous criteria and get this PC". Seems to just reinforce the fact that it is a luxury item rather than damage the brand.

starstreak

Jul 20, 2009, 06:21 AM

I dunno, the vibe I get from the ad is a screaming "I want the Mac, but it is too expensive so I will dump all my previous criteria and get this PC". Seems to just reinforce the fact that it is a luxury item rather than damage the brand.

Really? The vibe I get is "I want more in a laptop than just good looks". Untill Apple opens up to 3rd party to create other "Apple like computers" Apple will be more exspensive than that of a PC. It's a catch 22. If Apple did that, then Apple would fall into the same issues that plague the PC. Which is compatability issues. 95% of the time my PC acts up is because of a driver issue. Apple doesn't run into that because they only allow certain hardware to work on it.

As it is right now, you can get more hardware bang for your buck for a PC. And like a broken record in ALL of Apple's ads, all the apple can say is "Come to us, there are no viruses." And let's face it, that line isn't a threat to anybody who smart enough to read here.
If Apple wants to win the "noobs" They gonna need to add more hardware and lower the price.

polaris20

Jul 20, 2009, 07:49 AM

Mosx, couple things:

First, my MBP plays L4D just fine, for the times I actually have time to play a game (this laptop is for real work, not watching movies and video games)

Second, Macs are a good value to those who like their workflow and stability. You apparently are once again having a tough time separating fact vs opinion again; do I need to link the definitions again? :)

I agree though, if all I was going to do was play games and watch movies (as you apparently do) than I would just get a Dell or something. However for me, being able to interface seemlessly with the Linux workstations and servers while still having MS Office open, as well as RDPing into Windows machines and running VMWare for testing is just too convenient.

If it doesn't work for you, fine. We get it. Win7 is a great OS and I'm sure you will be happy. Did you sell your MB yet? ;)

FF_productions

Jul 20, 2009, 09:07 AM

Apple lowered the price on a couple models, and now they think they have competitive prices? Umm, Mac mini, iMac, Mac Pro, and White MacBook are all the same damn price.

Norco

Jul 20, 2009, 10:05 AM

Apple lowered the price on a couple models, and now they think they have competitive prices? Umm, Mac mini, iMac, Mac Pro, and White MacBook are all the same damn price.

They're not trying to be competitive to the lower market segment, just the upper. They still want to cost more so all the toothless rednecks can't afford one.

djellison

Jul 20, 2009, 10:08 AM

Second, Macs are a good value to those who like their workflow and stability. You apparently are once again having a tough time separating fact vs opinion again; do I need to link the definitions again? :)

You are having a tough time separating fact vs opinion.

I like workflow and stability. I do not want a Mac workstation. It would not offer good value. For my workstation - I want a PC.

For email, web (if Safari stops crashing for 10 minutes), photos and most of all Keynote...I want a Mac.

So I have both.

polaris20

Jul 20, 2009, 10:18 AM

You are having a tough time separating fact vs opinion.

I like workflow and stability. I do not want a Mac workstation. It would not offer good value. For my workstation - I want a PC.

For email, web (if Safari stops crashing for 10 minutes), photos and most of all Keynote...I want a Mac.

So I have both.

And you have a reading comprehension problem.

Second, Macs are a good value to those who like their workflow and stability

Did I say they're a good value to everyone? No. Macs are stable. Windows is stable. They have different workflows. Pick one you like. Go with it.

Had I said "Macs are a good value for anyone who likes good workflow and stability" you'd have a point. However, I didn't say that.

I have all three; Windows, Linux, and OS X. They all do different things well.

dejo

Jul 20, 2009, 10:20 AM

Same sort of thing in Australia too where, incidentally, these "I'm a Mac, I'm a PC" ads would actually be illegal, at least on broadcast television. Adverts here aren't allowed to make negative claims about their competitors, only positive claims about themselves.
Wouldn't that make the "Laptop Hunter" ads illegal as well? I'm guessing they don't air in Australia either. Is that correct?

Soulstorm

Jul 20, 2009, 11:19 AM

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 11:23 AM

While Apple's ads target known PC vulnerabilities (viruses, incompatibility, major issues, hardware of lower quality), the ONLY thing Microsoft had to say is that Macs are more expensive? Wow.

"Macs may be better, but they're more expensive. And you're not worth it." - Microsoft

gunraidan

Jul 20, 2009, 11:52 AM

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 12:39 PM

"Macs may be better, but they're more expensive. And you're not worth it." - MicrosoftOn the flip side... (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=5309061&postcount=208)

MagnusVonMagnum

Jul 20, 2009, 12:39 PM

There's one very important thing when comparing Microsoft's ads to the Get A Mac ones.

Apple is attacking PC's. PC's are not Microsoft. While PC is standing as Personal Computer, in real life (and in Apple's ads) when we talk about PCs we mean everything that is not a Mac.

Have you ever even WATCHED those ads???? No, you have not or you'd know they cover a WIDE RANGE of topics, 99% of which have 100% to do with the Operating System, known as Windows and sold by Microsoft. Apple implies everything that makes a PC slow, buggy and attacked by cyber-thiefs is Microsoft's fault. And they would be right in the sense that PCs and Macs have the SAME BASIC HARDWARE now and so ANY attacks have EVERYTHING to do with Microsoft and Windows. In short, get your facts straight and stop trying to mislead people about what Apple has been doing.

Apple has been slapping Microsoft in the face about their OS for years now and Microsoft suddenly decides to slap Apple back for selling overpriced, underpowered computers that often run games at 1/2 the frame rates for the same game under OS X as they do with Windows on the SAME HARDWARE (OS X is not as fast in all areas as some would like to believe). Apple has no support for newer technologies like Blu-Ray no matter whether you buy the hardware or not (the OS doens't support it because it conflicts with their OTHER markets like iTunes sales so they choose simply to ignore 3rd party technology and thus let the OS rot in obscurity just to try and force people away from things like 1080P and to buy all of two dozen available 720P titles on iTunes. Apple cannot deliver what it promises and it still withholds Blu-Ray. It's pathetic. And all Mac fanatics can do is whine and cry about a $100 price change in a commercial and then expect Microsoft to go out and do a NEW commercial just to reflect a recent tiny price change, less than a year after they jacked up prices for no reason. If anything, those commercials are HELPING Mac users by getting Apple to lower their prices (what else would help when there are no direct OS X hardware competitors because Apple sues them all?)

Sorry, but the fanatics here are just whining about nothing. They apparently WANT to pay higher prices. It seems they don't mind Apple dragging their feet on decent 3D drivers and Blu-Ray support. They cheer when Apple makes fun of Windows machines and cry bloody murder when Microsoft throws a punch back at them. Boo Hoo! Apple NEEDS someone to keep them on their toes and get them to keep prices in check or else they just keep screwing their user base over and over like usual. Dropping prices even a little is better than raising them. If you have Microsoft to thank for that change, show some gratitude instead of trying to bite the hand that is helping you, the consumer. Otherwise, you'll convince people like me that you own Apple stock, but apparently buy PCs. That is the ONLY scenario where I could see any LOGIC and crying about Microsoft ads that help the Mac consumer with lower prices. Either that or I can only conclude Mac fanatics just aren't logical. But then I already knew that so I guess I should not be surprised.

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 12:54 PM

They cheer when Apple makes fun of Windows machines and cry bloody murder when Microsoft throws a punch back at them.

"Bloody murder?" I personally find the MS ads humorous. "Hi, I'm a filmmaker and I need a laptop for less than $1,000 and I'm going to get it from the tech geniuses at Best Buy, who conveniently will forget to charge me sales tax." LOL.

Oh, and wallowing in your wife's vomit after she discovers your porn habit is FREAKING HILARIOUS! :rolleyes:

Seems Microsoft's serious ads are funny and their funny ads are not.

Apple NEEDS someone to keep them on their toes and get them to keep prices in check or else they just keep screwing their user base over and over like usual.

Um, yeah. It's called the free market, where your products command the prices people will pay for them, and not one penny more.

I don't see anyone b*tching about Windows Vista Ultimate (MSRP $399) that comes on a 10 cent DVD and about a buck worth of packaging. Cuz, you know, Apple makes the only "overpriced" products on the planet. :rolleyes:

BTW, who is keeping Microsoft competitive and innovative with their 90% market share? That's right, NO ONE.

Conspiracy Theorize Different

whooleytoo

Jul 20, 2009, 01:07 PM

For me, the critical point is that most Apple marketing is very vague - very frustratingly so at times. If you're going to be specific in your advertising, you HAVE to be accurate. That's the problem with MS's adverts.

If you say "Macs are 1000% percent better than PCs", it's obviously not true; but it's so vague a statement no one would bother to try and disprove/suppress it either. If you say "You can't buy a Mac for less than 1000 euros", then it's something that would obviously be false and disprovable, and hence is likely to be objected to.

polaris20

Jul 20, 2009, 02:36 PM

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 02:40 PM

the distinction here is that Apple is actually getting its underwear in a twist over it, which, sorry guys, is pretty stupid given their potshots at MS over the years.

If your competitor is incorrectly referencing one of your product's prices in order to make their own look more appealing, you have every right to protest as such action is illegal.

Just as Microsoft has a right to protest any of the blatant inaccuracies in their Get A Mac ads. Surely Microsoft doesn't have to put up with the lies. Like, um, err, well, uh.... :confused:

polaris20

Jul 20, 2009, 02:44 PM

If your competitor is incorrectly referencing one of your product's prices in order to make their own look more appealing, you have every right to protest as such action is illegal.

Just as Microsoft has a right to protest any of the blatant inaccuracies in their Get A Mac ads. Surely Microsoft doesn't have to put up with the lies. Like, um, err, well, uh.... :confused:

True. And there are a lot blatant inaccuracies or over-exaggerations in the Get a Mac ads.

And which part in the MS ads are illegal? The 17" one? No. The 15" video editing one? Not exactly, though any average computer user knows you can upgrade the RAM for $50 to 4GB, but MS chose to leave that out.

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 02:49 PM

True. And there are a lot blatant inaccuracies or over-exaggerations in the Get a Mac ads.

Name one that Microsoft would have a solid, legitimate gripe about that would stand up in court if necessary.

Exaggerations are not illegal (i.e. "It costs $30,000 to fill your iPod with music.")

I've mentioned this in earlier threads, but the reason the Get A Mac ads work is because people (of which 90% use Windows) can relate to them because they are true.

And which part in the MS ads are illegal? The 17" one? No. The 15" video editing one? Not exactly, though any average computer user knows you can upgrade the RAM for $50 to 4GB, but MS chose to leave that out.

I don't know, I didn't hear this epic phone call described by the Microsoft COO.

Soulstorm

Jul 20, 2009, 03:25 PM

Have you ever even WATCHED those ads???? No, you have not or you'd know they cover a WIDE RANGE of topics, 99% of which have 100% to do with the Operating System, known as Windows and sold by Microsoft. Apple implies everything that makes a PC slow, buggy and attacked by cyber-thiefs is Microsoft's fault. And they would be right in the sense that PCs and Macs have the SAME BASIC HARDWARE now and so ANY attacks have EVERYTHING to do with Microsoft and Windows. In short, get your facts straight and stop trying to mislead people about what Apple has been doing.

Well, I will give you the right on this one, seems I hadn't watched all the ads. I did, and I see you are right. Therefore, I will choose to ignore the rest of your (slightly) aggressive style, since because of my post you clearly believe I am one of those fans that tend to wear eye patches and not see the faults of the company whose products they are buying.

So let me elaborate. I am not one of those fans. But allow me to not agree with the rest of your post. I wasn't angry at microsoft because of their ads attacking the Mac, but because of this:

I remember an ad displaying a woman saying ironically "I'm not cool enough to get a Mac". So what does that mean? That everyone who buys a mac is a show off? I am very far from this point, but I was really angry seeing the woman saying that. I remembered some years ago when people looked at me like I was some kind of alien when I was telling them that I have a Mac.

That's what the fuss is all about. Apple, for 2 decades now attacking the PC market, has never, EVER (directly or inderectly) offended in any way people who don't choose their products. That's why I am whining.

As for the Blu-Ray... A search on Google about Blu-Ray Macintosh comes up with many results. Toast relies on OS X for its Blu-Ray support, and 10.5.2 and above has Blu-Ray drivers, Blu-Ray playback is coming.

As for the Apple price... You seem very angry about it. Why? If they feel that's how much you must pay for the right to use their hardware, then go for it if you have the money. Have you ever been angry at another product that is just overpriced? I sure don't have. And consider this: You pay for the hardware one time. But their software is really cheap. Just look at professional products like Logic studio, and Final Cut studio. No one will give you so many bundled tools at that price. Use Logic, or FCS and see for yourself. Therefore, I will tell you again to Google first, get angry later.

And it also seems you are a gamer. If you aren't, then sorry, but anyway, that doesn't change anything to what I am about to say. I am not a gamer, and many others who buy Macs aren't. Although Macs tend to behave badly on games, the latest games don't, and that's not Apple's fault, it's the porting companies' fault, or no ones, since porting can be lossy sometimes. Believe me. I am a programmer and I know this for a fact.

Drivers... Please don't let me start about that one.

I, myself am programming for both Windows and OS X for quite some time. I can tell you for a fact that Apple has done much good in the industry. It contributes to OpenSource communities, while promoting Open Source standards. On the other hand, Microsoft is a bit left behind on this one.

Please, before answering, try to accept that Mac users are not fanatics. And please try to see that (at least from my point of view) Macs and PCs are targeting different people. Ever wondered why Apple does not give a decent upgradeable tower customizable CPU at 1000 euros? Because they don't want to. That's the PC area. They just give you some (overpriced but decent) alternatives. If you like them, go for it. If you don't then there is nothing to complain about.

All this without any implication of fanatism on your part whatsoever. Just trying to clarify my original post, and say something more.

Mr. MacPhisto

Jul 20, 2009, 03:47 PM

Please, before answering, try to accept that Mac users are not fanatics. And please try to see that (at least from my point of view) Macs and PCs are targeting different people. Ever wondered why Apple does not give a decent upgradeable tower customizable CPU at 1000 euros? Because they don't want to. That's the PC area. They just give you some (overpriced but decent) alternatives. If you like them, go for it. If you don't then there is nothing to complain about.

All this without any implication of fanatism on your part whatsoever. Just trying to clarify my original post, and say something more.

Not all Mac people are fanatics. Some are. I'm a recovering Mac person who was with Apple for six years until their products and pricing strategies made me return to Windows. And I must say that I think Windows 7 RC is better than OS X Leopard I was using.

I built a fast quad core with a 1080p 24" monitor for around $1000. Good parts, 8GB of memory, large hard drive. And that price includes the OEM copy of Vista I purchased before downloading Windows 7 a month later.

So price is a big point, especially in this economy. Apple knows it and that's why they did slightly lower their prices.

As for MS, I've found they are better when it comes to development for the OS. Yes, not involved as much in OpenSource stuff, but they give their developers better tools and the Windows API is easier to work in than Cocoa or Carbon.

Apple just tends to prefer to get customers that don't care about a variety of good options. The bulk of the machines they sell are hard to upgrade and the upgradeable machines are very expensive. I think the idea is to get you hooked into buying a new machine every three years or so at great profit to them. Their 17% profit margin from last year shows how much they gouge their customers and I must admit that I find their software update far worse than MS' ever was at this point. Love how they constantly want to force Safari on me and don't even both to ask me if I want an iTunes icon on my desktop whenever it updates.

Truth is that Apple isn't used to being attacked. They're used to poking at MS and MS thinking it is big enough to ignore them. They don't like MS using the price argument - and that's all that MS argues for.

As for that $700 laptop, my father has the same one that was featured on the most recent laptop hunters I saw. I've seen a few people want a comparo of that and an Apple:

An equivalent Mac would be the Macbook Pro 15.4" with 4GB and a 320 GB HDD. It does have a few extra features, a nicer case, etc. It has a faster processor, but it costs $1749 versus HP's $699.99. Both have long life batteries, though you can replace the HP battery.

For $1000 I can buy a HP 16" laptop that is thinner, lighter, and has a 1GB nVidia video card.

People can argue the Mercedes/BMW angle for Apple all they want, but the hardware is similar across the board and if the OS perception gap closes with Windows 7 then Apple is even less of a slam dunk at a high price. What they don't seem to get is that people on the low end outside of the netbooks actually like the idea of a 14" or 15" screen. You pay a premium for that and it ultimately means that Apple won't really expand beyond their current hold. They'll just keep on ripping off the suckers who're willing to give them cash and brainwashing them that they are somehow better for it.

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 04:01 PM

They'll just keep on ripping off the suckers who're willing to give them cash and brainwashing them that they are somehow better for it.

You had a semi level-headed, rational argument until your last sentence, which jumped you solidly into troll territory. And that's too bad.

I suppose I'm a brainwashed sucker if I buy, say, a Tag-Heuer instead of a Casio? And I imagine only a moron would pay $5 for a sandwich at the deli when he could easily make his own from home for a buck. :rolleyes:

Put a MacBook Pro and your $700 HP in front of someone and tell them they can take either, absolutely free. They'll pick the MacBook Pro 99/100 times. Guaranteed. So there must be some premium value in there somewhere, no?

I can make the same "brainwashed sucker" argument regarding people who are willing to put up with Windows (at any price). In fact, a Windows user should steer clear of the "brainwashed" accusation entirely. Those who live in glass houses...

I too have built my own PCs in the past. I'm done with that garbage. A Mac is worth every extra penny to me. And apparently to millions of others as well.

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 04:09 PM

Put a MacBook Pro and your $700 HP in front of someone and tell them they can take either, absolutely free. They'll pick the MacBook Pro 99/100 times. Guaranteed. So there must be some premium value in there somewhere, no?Bad example.

If it's free, yes. If you're going to pay for it the HP is going out the door.

I too have built my own PCs in the past. I'm done with that garbage. A Mac is worth every extra penny to me. And apparently to millions of others as well.Your milage may vary.

Soulstorm

Jul 20, 2009, 04:14 PM

Bad example. If it's free, yes. If you're going to pay for it the HP is going out the door.

I think he tried to say that since if they were free you would choose one over the other, then you must find something more to it. So, when talking about prices, you must consider quality.

Wether you feel this is the right value for money, it's up to you. For me, everything that's going on here is useless.

We will see who's best very soon, guys. Windows 7 and Snow Leopard are just around the corner. That's where everything will be judged.

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 04:21 PM

I think he tried to say that since if they were free you would choose one over the other, then you must find something more to it. So, when talking about prices, you must consider quality.I don't want this to go into a discussion about where Apple's $700 notebook. Ugh...

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 04:22 PM

If it's free, yes. If you're going to pay for it the HP is going out the door.

But why choose the Mac if they're exactly the same hardware-wise?

Because they're not. That's why.

Again, you (in general) fail to recognize the "premium" aspect of the product while bashing the premium pricing.

Your milage may vary.

Indeed. And obviously there is enough "I hate Windows hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!" sentiment out there to keep Apple profitable. And that's all that really matters, no?

I'd rather sell a hundred $1,800 MacBook Pros than a thousand $399 Dell laptops. And apparently Apple would too.

I'm not sure why people feel compelled to rage against free market dynamics.

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 04:27 PM

But why choose the Mac if they're exactly the same hardware-wise?

Because they're not. That's why.

Again, you (in general) fail to recognize the "premium" aspect of the product while bashing the premium pricing.Probably because it runs easily and legally runs OS X.

The closest thing we have down there is the refurbished 2.0 GHz 9400M G MacBook at $749. That's going to hurt if you a 15/17" screen.

Indeed. And obviously there is enough "I hate Windows hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!" sentiment out there to keep Apple profitable. And that's all that really matters, no?

I'd rather sell a hundred $1,800 MacBook Pros than a thousand $399 Dell laptops. And apparently Apple would too.

I'm not sure why people feel compelled to rage against free market dynamics.Because they don't want to spend the money. :rolleyes:

There are plenty of other OEM vendors with hardware options out there but sadly they're still not Macs.

I understand that I paid a premium to run OS X on my MacBook with its paltry GMA X3100. I hate how much I paid for it but I like using OS X and didn't want to deal with a hackbook at the time. I don't plan on buying a new machine because my Mac runs iTunes and Safari so well. I keep spending money on upgrades for my desktop though.

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 04:39 PM

Probably because it runs easily and legally runs OS X.

Oh please. Remove OS X from the equation entirely. Install Windows on both machines. Tell them the Mac will never be able to run OS X (which most of them have never heard of anyway). They will still choose the MacBook Pro over the HP almost every single time. Because it looks better and it feels better.

It's easy to dismiss the cost of top-level design when one is unfamiliar with what it takes.

Do I wish Macs were cheaper? Of course. I'd love a MacBook Pro for $500. But there's no way I'm spending my dough (and my time) on a crappy $700 HP using Windows. I have an HP Compaq nc6220 in front of me and there's no way I would have spent any of my own money on this thing. I spend more time with my computer than I spend with my wife, kids, car, etc. (sad, but the reality of life). You better believe I want the very best computing experience I can get. That extra $1,000 over 3 years is meaningless. And I'll recover much of that premium at resale anyway, making it even more meaningless.

YMMV.

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 04:45 PM

Oh please. Remove OS X from the equation entirely. Install Windows on both machines. Tell them the Mac will never be able to run OS X (which most of them have never heard of anyway). They will still choose the MacBook Pro over the HP almost every single time. Because it looks better and it feels better.

It's easy to dismiss the cost of top-level design when one is unfamiliar with what it takes.I'm quite surprised and impressed that you'd go this far.

I'd have to agree. I'd have to sit down and touch, lift, and poke the physical hardware to decide. Then the internal specifications come into play as well with me being heavily biased toward better video solutions.

I've played around with HP and Sony's notebooks in-store and found them to resist pressure on the case and other light manhandling. At the price you can't complain unless it's using yet another Intel GMA.

Do I wish Macs were cheaper? Of course. I'd love a MacBook Pro for $500. But there's no way I'm spending my dough (and my time) on a crappy $700 HP using Windows. I have an HP Compaq nc6220 in front of me and there's no way I would have spent any of my own money on this thing. I spend more time with my computer than I spend with my wife, kids, car, etc. (sad, but the reality of life). You better believe I want the very best computing experience I can get. That extra $1,000 over 3 years is meaningless. And I'll recover much of that premium at resale anyway, making it even more meaningless.

YMMV.Tell me about it.

I don't expect to have any resale value left from my MacBook even with the RAM and hard drive upgrades I've made. It'll be under $400 by late 2010.

That's just off the perception of its value and not the hardware.

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 04:52 PM

I don't expect to have any resale value left from my MacBook even with the RAM and hard drive upgrades I've made. It'll be under $400 by late 2010.

I think you may be surprised. I just sold on eBay my 5-year-old Mac mini for over $200. I think I paid under $600 for it new. I wouldn't have been able to give a 5-year-old Mac-mini-comparable PC away. So the premium I paid became a wash at resale. Smart buy? Absolutely.

My friend bought a Daewoo because it was $5,000 less than an equivalent Accord. A few years later he got $1,500 in trade-in for that car. The Accord he would have spent $5,000 more on would have brought him over $10,000 (easily) in trade. So much for that $5,000 savings.

Sometimes you have to look beyond the numbers and specs.

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 04:58 PM

I think you may be surprised. I just sold on eBay my 5-year-old Mac mini for over $200. I think I paid under $600 for it new. I wouldn't have been able to give a 5-year-old Mac-mini-comparable PC away. So the premium I paid became a wash at resale. Smart buy? Absolutely.

My friend bought a Daewoo because it was $5,000 less than an equivalent Accord. A few years later he got $1,500 in trade-in for that car. The Accord he would have spent $5,000 more on would have brought him over $10,000 (easily) in trade. So much for that $5,000 savings.

Sometimes you have to look beyond the numbers and specs.I'll feel like I'm suckering someone though trying to sell it for THAT much money.

I hear resale value and 4-5 year ownership lengths get tossed around constantly here. I don't do enough on my MacBook to warrant new hardware. A netbook would do as much as it does.

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 05:01 PM

I'll feel like I'm suckering someone though trying to sell it for THAT much money.

Let the market bear what the market bears.

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 05:03 PM

Let the market bear what the market bears.Sadly that wouldn't be enough to keep me from feeling guilty.

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 05:17 PM

Sadly that wouldn't be enough to keep me from feeling guilty.

Personally, I'd feel more guilty about selling someone a machine running Windows. At any price. ;)

djellison

Jul 20, 2009, 05:35 PM

But why choose the Mac if they're exactly the same hardware-wise?

Because you could flog the Mac on Ebay, buy the HP, and spend the left over cash on whatever you wanted :)

Let me say it again. Mac's are not the best purchase for everybody. They are not perfect. They are not ideal. They are not for all. No Mac made sense for my Dad. A £450 PC gives him all the performance he needs with a nice big screen. It'll last him for ages.

OMFG TEH WINDOWS SUX Apple Fanboy attitude is pathetic, ignorant, and frankly, embarrassing.

A lot of people use both. I do. They're both fine, thanks. Yet people here think I'm an idiot for using Windows at all. It's pure idiocy in this place sometimes.

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 05:44 PM

Mac's are not the best purchase for everybody. They are not perfect. They are not ideal.

I don't believe anyone here would claim that they are.

OMFG TEH WINDOWS SUX Apple Fanboy attitude is pathetic, ignorant, and frankly, embarrassing.

A lot of people use both. I do.

I use both as well. Mac since 1991. Windows since 1993. I could write an epic novel regarding the Windows issues I've had to deal with. My Mac issues would be more of a short story - illustrated, of course, to get the page count up. ;)

That's just fact, not hyperbole.

There's nothing "ignorant" about many of our opinions that Windows sucks. Because, you see, we've actually used Windows. A lot. We speak from experience, not from some blind perspective based on hearsay and innuendo and flat out stupidity.

Which is far more than you can say for the "Mac sux!" crowd.

polaris20

Jul 20, 2009, 08:23 PM

Oh please. Remove OS X from the equation entirely. Install Windows on both machines. Tell them the Mac will never be able to run OS X (which most of them have never heard of anyway). They will still choose the MacBook Pro over the HP almost every single time. Because it looks better and it feels better.

It's easy to dismiss the cost of top-level design when one is unfamiliar with what it takes.

If you remove OS X completely and forever, and put it next to a Thinkpad, I would get the Thinkpad if it were cheaper. And they often are, depending on the series and the deals running.

I run a computer for the OS. Plain and simple. The shiny case doesn't get my work done, the OS does. Yes, right now that's mainly OS X, but it could also easily be Linux or Win7.

I like OS X enough that I'm willing to spend the extra money on the only computer it runs on (while being supported).

Because you could flog the Mac on Ebay, buy the HP, and spend the left over cash on whatever you wanted :)

Let me say it again. Mac's are not the best purchase for everybody. They are not perfect. They are not ideal. They are not for all. No Mac made sense for my Dad. A £450 PC gives him all the performance he needs with a nice big screen. It'll last him for ages.

OMFG TEH WINDOWS SUX Apple Fanboy attitude is pathetic, ignorant, and frankly, embarrassing.

A lot of people use both. I do. They're both fine, thanks. Yet people here think I'm an idiot for using Windows at all. It's pure idiocy in this place sometimes.

That's what I said earlier; the workflow works for some people, not all. I use both as well.

People need to stop treating any OS as a religion. That goes for both (or in the case of Linux especially) all three sides.

That's just fact, not hyperbole.

I'd say it's more personal anecdote, as it doesn't quite represent everyone.

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 08:30 PM

If you remove OS X completely and forever, and put it next to a Thinkpad, I would get the Thinkpad if it were cheaper.

Um, I said if you could have either for free. Choosing the Thinkpad "if it were cheaper" doesn't really say much. ;)

That said, if I had to have a PC laptop, it would probably be a Thinkpad. Because there is some real build quality there. Which, coincidentally, results in it being "way overpriced" according to most folks' standards.

Yet you don't see people talking about Thinkpad owners being brainwashed sheep who buy overpriced crap. Funny how that works. Flash an Apple logo at some people and they lose all grip on rational thought as the rage flows through their veins. :rolleyes:

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 08:35 PM

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 08:40 PM

Backing up is still a pain under Windows to be honest. Time Machine and Spotlight are the biggest reasons I keep my important data under OS X.

They only mention Time Machine once though in the commercials. It's the best one.

polaris20

Jul 20, 2009, 09:25 PM

Um, I said if you could have either for free. Choosing the Thinkpad "if it were cheaper" doesn't really say much. ;)

That said, if I had to have a PC laptop, it would probably be a Thinkpad. Because there is some real build quality there. Which, coincidentally, results in it being "way overpriced" according to most folks' standards.

Yet you don't see people talking about Thinkpad owners being brainwashed sheep who buy overpriced crap. Funny how that works. Flash an Apple logo at some people and they lose all grip on rational thought as the rage flows through their veins. :rolleyes:
I wouldn't take an HP if it were given to me, even if it was the only laptop to choose from.

Diseal3

Jul 20, 2009, 09:28 PM

New anecdote: the neighbor across the street just called an hour ago. His Windows PC just got hit with a virus and was completely fraked up. He took it to a computer shop to have the virus purged and his data transferred to a new computer. In the process they fried his hard drive to a crisp. Goodbye photos and videos for the past 5+ years. He did not have a backup. I imagine the tears flowed freely in that house today.

He called to ask which Mac I recommend.

Another satisfied Microsoft customer.

But hey, he got a screaming good deal on that computer a couple of years ago. :rolleyes:

Bet he wished he'd bought a Mac when I recommended it to him last time. Maybe they should use him on a Laptop Hunters commercial?

YMMV.

Well that's not MS fault now is it? Look at it this way, MS designed an operating system that can be used on virtually any build configuration as long as the manufacture of the part will write drivers for it. The operating system is secure out of the box and MS gives you the basic tools to help to keep that security. Now because windows is so flexable you the consumer get to enjoy it at cheap prices. However, so do millions of other people. Some of those other people are just out to cause you harm. Mac on the other hand because it's on hardware and running an OS that Apple has strict control of does not have as many people as windows, limiting the number of "bad" people that can interfere with your end-user experience. However, let's say apple DID open the OS to the free market. Who's saying Mac OS X users stand a chance? Those bad users will plague your experience just as well as windows over time. We already got a sneak peak with the virus plagues torrents of Ilife 09 since the popularity of Hackintosh.

Also, the backup was the fault of the PC guys NOT Microsoft. Microsoft dosent write the Virus. It's like you getting jumped by a person of X race/gender. Your going to get the impresstion that X race/gender is bad and avoid interacting with them and secluding yourself?

I wouldn't take an HP if it were given to me, even if it was the only laptop to choose from.

I sure as hell would. It's a free computer. An OS is just software. Software can be manipulated to the way you want. I personally have a Mac and Windows. I feel just as secure on my windows as I do on my mac.

polaris20

Jul 20, 2009, 09:34 PM

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 09:34 PM

Well that's not MS fault now is it?

It doesn't matter whose fault it is. It only matters that it is.

Use Windows, brace yourself for all kinds of potential nastiness. There are no such worries on a Mac (yet). Your hypotheticals are irrelevant as Apple will never open the floodgates to every Tom, Dick and Harry that can build their own box. That ensures a minority market share, and with minority market share comes safety and security.

MS is the victim of its own success. They will never be able to secure their software. Anyone who thinks Windows 7 will be safe is kidding themselves. If you can build it, you can break it. And with 80% plus market share, your users will always be the target.

Fine by me.

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 09:39 PM

No one ever loses data on non-redundant Macs and Linux machines with no backup, right? :rolleyes:

Who said that? I didn't.

I don't think I need to elaborate on the chain of events that resulted in this particular catastrophic loss of data. But when my neighbor gets his new Mac I'll be sure to show him how to connect the external drive and turn on Time Machine.

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 09:40 PM

Sounds like a completely computer illiterate person coupled with retarded comp techs.

You just described 90% of Microsoft's 90% market share.

Sounds harsh, but that's the truth of it.

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 09:42 PM

You just described 90% of Microsoft's 90% market share.

Sounds harsh, but that's the truth of it.I wouldn't limit it to just Microsoft. I get as simple as a toaster crowd regardless.

polaris20

Jul 20, 2009, 09:43 PM

Well that's not MS fault now is it? Look at it this way, MS designed an operating system that can be used on virtually any build configuration as long as the manufacture of the part will write drivers for it. The operating system is secure out of the box and MS gives you the basic tools to help to keep that security. Now because windows is so flexable you the consumer get to enjoy it at cheap prices. However, so do millions of other people. Some of those other people are just out to cause you harm. Mac on the other hand because it's on hardware and running an OS that Apple has strict control of does not have as many people as windows, limiting the number of "bad" people that can interfere with your end-user experience. However, let's say apple DID open the OS to the free market. Who's saying Mac OS X users stand a chance? Those bad users will plague your experience just as well as windows over time. We already got a sneak peak with the virus plagues torrents of Ilife 09 since the popularity of Hackintosh.

Also, the backup was the fault of the PC guys NOT Microsoft. Microsoft dosent write the Virus. It's like you getting jumped by a person of X race/gender. Your going to get the impresstion that X race/gender is bad and avoid interacting with them and secluding yourself?

your argument is flawed in that OS X's security has nothing to do with what hardware it runs on but rather its market share. There's no money in infecting 6% (or whatever the market share is) when MS has the bigger target on its back. OS X (in it's current Leopard form) is not as technically secure as Win7 is, but due to lack of market share, malware is close to non-existent. Doesn't matter if it's a real Mac or not. If you're saying Hackintoshes open up malware writing, maybe a little, but I doubt that number is significant.

I sure as hell would. It's a free computer. An OS is just software. Software can be manipulated to the way you want. I personally have a Mac and Windows. I feel just as secure on my windows as I do on my mac.

I didn't say I wouldn't own a Windows machine. I said I wouldn't own an HP if given to me.

polaris20

Jul 20, 2009, 09:48 PM

Who said that? I didn't.

I don't think I need to elaborate on the chain of events that resulted in this particular catastrophic loss of data. But when my neighbor gets his new Mac I'll be sure to show him how to connect the external drive and turn on Time Machine.

You do a fine job of insinuating that because moron got a virus and lost all his data that's MS's fault. That's just not the case. The data could have been recovered with less than 5 minutes work, without even opening up the case. This is not Windows' fault by any stretch of the imagination. So explain to me how this isolated anecdote is relevant at all? It's not.

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 09:50 PM

You do a fine job of insinuating that because moron got a virus and lost all his data that's MS's fault. That's just not the case. The data could have been recovered with less than 5 minutes work, without even opening up the case. This is not Windows' fault by any stretch of the imagination. So explain to me how this isolated anecdote is relevant at all? It's not.Maybe the virus erased his data? :rolleyes:

Drop into the drive an external enclosure or LiveCD then to USB flash the data off. I've gotten data off of "dead Macs" using Target Disk Mode or fixed them that way. I'm looking at you screwed up Safari/Webkit libraries.

bruinsrme

Jul 20, 2009, 09:55 PM

Many can argue about built quality, os, resale value and so on.

I am working with my relatives on getting them computers,the phone was "we have 3 kids and we need 3 laptops and the budget is $1600 make it work"

They have $400 for a printer, paper, ink, mice and keyboards.

3 years ago I got a similar phone call, 3 kids need three laptops and the budget is $2400.
2 of the 3 dells are still working. the third didn't survive the all off the patio.

Diseal3

Jul 20, 2009, 09:56 PM

It doesn't matter whose fault it is. It only matters that it is.

Use Windows, brace yourself for all kinds of potential nastiness. There are no such worries on a Mac (yet). Your hypotheticals are irrelevant as Apple will never open the floodgates to every Tom, Dick and Harry that can build their own box. That ensures a minority market share, and with minority market share comes safety and security.

MS is the victim of its own success. They will never be able to secure their software. Anyone who thinks Windows 7 will be safe is kidding themselves. If you can build it, you can break it. And with 80% plus market share, your users will always be the target.

Fine by me.

You dont have a very strong arguement at all. Your saying that Apple has to be the ones to open to so called flood gates? Your logic is flawed as those gate sprung a leak with the hackintosh project. Any "Tom,Dick and Harry" can install hacintosh there computer followed a guide and using their brain. Now a virus maker is obviously not an average "Tom, Dick and Harry" making him more then able to install this on his computer allowing him to explore the flaws of the Mac OS X os and using them to build a virus. Macs are using Intel processors now so its an architecture he is familar with. Virus maker are in it for the majority of people he can effect, but with the growing mac market and the growing hackintosh project and efficiency its more then likely that ilife 09 virus will not be the only one. You said "If you can build it, you can break it." well humans built the Unix OS, Apple expanded it. Humans have the ability to impact it as well. You also said "And with 80% plus market share, your users will always be the target." maybe but hey all I know is the main objective of viruses in the first place is to hear themselves on the news and knowing there ****ing up a lot of people, what better way to do this then making a full blown out mac virus epidemic. A lot of money can be made.

P.S- also with your friends failed hardware, what makes him think that "Apple" hardware/software is premium? Its all made in the same Chinese Assembly line and there really is no PC/Mac hardware. It's all just Computer hardware period. Now if the hard drive on his mac computer crashes and he dosen't have a backup of his 5 years worth of pictures, are we going to blame apple throw our hand in the air and blame your stupidity on a company?

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 09:57 PM

You do a fine job of insinuating that because moron got a virus and lost all his data that's MS's fault.

*sigh* I guess I do have to elaborate on the chain of events.

Step 1: get Windows (by Microsoft) virus, which fraks up computer
Step 2: take computer to repair shop to remove virus
Step 3: inadvertently destroy hard drive, lose all data

Without Step 1, there is no Step 2. Nor Step 3. No insinuation required.

Must I put this into a flowchart? ;)

Maybe I'll give you my neighbor's phone number and you can call him and tell him that Windows really isn't so bad if you know what you're doing - that hey, he's just an idiot and maybe he should have set up a hardware firewall and updated his 3 virus and spyware scanners and then not clicked on that PowerPoint attachment someone sent him. I mean geez, it is Windows after all - due diligence, homie!

I'd give him a couple of days though - he's in a really foul mood right now.

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 09:59 PM

*sigh* I guess I do have to elaborate on the chain of events.

Step 1: get Windows (by Microsoft) virus, which fraks up computer
Step 2: take computer to repair shop to remove virus
Step 3: inadvertently destroy hard drive, lose all data

Without Step 1, there is no Step 2. Nor Step 3. No insinuation required.

Must I put this into a flowchart? ;)

Maybe I'll give you my neighbor's phone number and you can call him and tell him that Windows really isn't so bad if you know what you're doing - that hey, he's just an idiot and maybe he should have set up a hardware firewall and updated his 3 virus and spyware scanners and then not clicked on that PowerPoint attachment someone sent him. I mean geez, it is Windows after all - due diligence, homie!

I'd give him a couple of days though - he's in a really foul mood right now.Microsoft never made the virus though...

You can play the "insert OS X trojan" or "fake Quicktime plug-in" game too. Apple never made those programs or plug-ins. NAT and "common sense" should be enough but you're not going to find those most of the time.

It just has to be a toaster or someone is going to break it.

bruinsrme

Jul 20, 2009, 10:00 PM

You do a fine job of insinuating that because moron got a virus and lost all his data that's MS's fault. That's just not the case. The data could have been recovered with less than 5 minutes work, without even opening up the case. This is not Windows' fault by any stretch of the imagination. So explain to me how this isolated anecdote is relevant at all? It's not.

Tere are enough free antivirus and malware suites out there.
Cable companies, ISPs, yahoo, gmail, aol and so on scan for viruses.
Virus scanners and yes the free ones scan downloads, emails, external drives, download content.
Cmon, getting a virus in todays computing age is irresponsibility of the user.
i can't recall how many viruses I have downloaded from legit sites.

polaris20

Jul 20, 2009, 10:01 PM

Maybe the virus erased his data? :rolleyes:

Drop into the drive an external enclosure or LiveCD then to USB flash the data off. I've gotten data off of "dead Macs" using Target Disk Mode or fixed them that way. I'm looking at you screwed up Safari/Webkit libraries.

Viruses haven't worked that way for years for the most part. Gone are the glory days when script kiddies did it for attention. Now it's for the money, and often you won't even know the virus is there, because it doesn't want to be caught. It is there to be used to get personal information or used as part of a DDOS attack.

Besides, LagunaSol specifically said the techs "fried" the drive, not the virus. How would a virus physically fry the drive?

PenguinPower

Jul 20, 2009, 10:02 PM

People still store their data on the windows boot volume?!

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 10:02 PM

Your logic is flawed as those gate sprung a leak with the hackintosh project.

I think your logic meter needs to be recalibrated. The homebrew Mac crowd is the tiniest blip on the radar. Probably a fraction of a percent, if that. No virus writer is going to get all excited about exploiting OS X because a few hobbyists are now building their own Macs.

And sure, someone will send out a Mac virus as a gimmick and it will make the news, then he/she will go right back to writing Windows viruses. Because that's where the real impact is.

Security through obscurity. It's basic science. Or math, or something...

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 10:03 PM

Diseal3

Jul 20, 2009, 10:04 PM

Viruses haven't worked that way for years for the most part. Gone are the glory days when script kiddies did it for attention. Now it's for the money, and often you won't even know the virus is there, because it doesn't want to be caught. It is there to be used to get personal information or used as part of a DDOS attack.

Besides, LagunaSol specifically said the techs "fried" the drive, not the virus. How would a virus physically fry the drive?

Exactly. Data can be backed up with a virus on the computer, it's not the fault of Microsoft that the techs are idiots and didn't do their part to save this guys hard work before hand.

I'm going to through it at you this way, what happens if a system file was a problem in place of a virus and it cannot be recovered via any install disks and your only option is to reinstall just the operating system. Simple task no one can argue. Ok you do this and suddenly your files are corrupt and/or are missing. Who are you going to blame and get fed up with.

I think your logic meter needs to be recalibrated. The homebrew Mac crowd is the tiniest blip on the radar. Probably a fraction of a percent, if that. No virus writer is going to get all excited about exploiting OS X because a few hobbyists are now building their own Macs.

And sure, someone will send out a Mac virus as a gimmick and it will make the news, then he/she will go right back to writing Windows viruses. Because that's where the real impact is.

Security through obscurity. It's basic science. Or math, or something...

I don't think your seeing the point here. Everyone so far is arguing against you because what your saying makes no sense. Of course a virus maker will get excited, this is something NEW never before announced on the news... there is a LOT of money to be made with a well written mac virus. People are tired of hearing about viruses for windows and are no longer discussed on the news because if your internet smart, and with proper protection your fine. But all these mac users who have NO protection and feel they can browse what ever and be safe... this is like a big neon sign saying hack me!

I've been using windows for close to 10-11 years, I've never had a virus that totally messed up my files. I can also honestly say i've never had a virus in over 9 years. When you become smart and know what content sites have you know what to avoid. Like porn sites and warez sites... that's a no brainer. Don't do it or find clean sites. Is that really so hard.

PenguinPower

Jul 20, 2009, 10:05 PM

or fight other botnets.

In the future, its going to be digital blood sport.

polaris20

Jul 20, 2009, 10:05 PM

*sigh* I guess I do have to elaborate on the chain of events.

Step 1: get Windows (by Microsoft) virus, which fraks up computer
Step 2: take computer to repair shop to remove virus
Step 3: inadvertently destroy hard drive, lose all data

Without Step 1, there is no Step 2. Nor Step 3. No insinuation required.

Must I put this into a flowchart? ;)

Maybe I'll give you my neighbor's phone number and you can call him and tell him that Windows really isn't so bad if you know what you're doing - that hey, he's just an idiot and maybe he should have set up a hardware firewall and updated his 3 virus and spyware scanners and then not clicked on that PowerPoint attachment someone sent him. I mean geez, it is Windows after all - due diligence, homie!

I'd give him a couple of days though - he's in a really foul mood right now.

I'm sorry, you lost me after step 1. MS didn't write the virus (just like Apple didn't write the iWork 09 Trojan) and MS didn't bork the hard drive.

Sorry, this guy could probably break a calculator. And yes, your neighbor is profoundly incompetent. I surely hope he reads the instructions before operating power tools.

PenguinPower

Jul 20, 2009, 10:07 PM

This is why god invented windows steady state, and fire. Both are used as forms of punishment.

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 10:08 PM

In the future, its going to be digital blood sport.As if internet background radiation was bad enough.

This is why god invented windows steady state, and fire. Both are used as forms of punishment.StedayState is great. I use it on a sibling's machine right now. I hope to use it to set up a nurse's station with it next month for a doctor that I know.

Mr. MacPhisto

Jul 20, 2009, 10:14 PM

You had a semi level-headed, rational argument until your last sentence, which jumped you solidly into troll territory. And that's too bad.

I suppose I'm a brainwashed sucker if I buy, say, a Tag-Heuer instead of a Casio? And I imagine only a moron would pay $5 for a sandwich at the deli when he could easily make his own from home for a buck. :rolleyes:

Those are very, very different comparisons. Does a Tag-Heuer have the same components as the Casio?

I have a computer with components SUPERIOR to the iMac and it cost less. I have a nVidia 9500GT with 512MB GDDR that is not up to the GT130, but is a lot cheaper and has the ability to use SLI. I have more memory that I would argue is of higher quality (yes, I'm a Kingston honk). A larger HDD. A Lightscribe DVD burner that I don't believe you can even GET on the iMac.

Put a MacBook Pro and your $700 HP in front of someone and tell them they can take either, absolutely free. They'll pick the MacBook Pro 99/100 times. Guaranteed. So there must be some premium value in there somewhere, no?

Not really. There's premium perception, but that doesn't necessarily mean something is premium. But to say the price is immaterial is ridiculous. And we're not talking about going from a stripped down Chevy Cavalier all the way up to a BMW 300. It's not like going from non-automatic locks, cheap cloth, AM/FM radio, and crankable windows with a 130hp engine to a decked out in leather with sunroof, DVD entertainment system, auto everything, and 220hp engine vehicle THAT INCLUDES MAINTENANCE.

The difference between the two is that they are very similar under the hood, one just has a nicer design with the sheet metal with one or two added bells and whistles. It's not like comparing a Mercedes to a Chevy. It's like getting a reskinned Chevy that doesn't look as dull and adding climate control.

So let's say for that in a car you only need add $2500 to a $20000 price tag. That's a 12.5% premium. Fair enough.

The $1750 MacBook is a 250% premium. Hardly equivalent and clearly a rip off.

You pull that MacBook Pro out next to the HP and say I can have the MacBook for $1000 versus the $700 and I'm there, but I think given the price of hardware these days that much above that is just being a sucker. I could even see $1200, but $1750?

And I love how much they charge to upgrade things for you if you customize from Apple direct. $50 for a 70GB bump on your hard drive. $1000 for 4 more GB in memory. I realize the 4GB modules are expensive, but I could get 8GB for under $650 on New Egg and Apple can do better than that. They could at least give you credit for the two 2GB modules they'd just use on another machine.

Reality is that you do not set these in front of people and say "pick one and it's free". If you could upgrade your car to leather with climate control at no cost then you would, but for most people cost comes in to play.

And I can afford to pay the extra Apple wants, but its not worth it. Maybe it was more worthwhile in the past, when Tiger hit and was clearly superior to XP. But, as I've said, Windows 7 changes the game a bit. The OS is easy on the eyes, stable, quick, and even has innovative features that Apple doesn't have (is trying to in Snow Leopard, but they do a poor job imitating the great Aero Peek feature).

Apple's hardware is pretty, but that's not why they've picked up users. Apple's stuff has always looked better. Frustrations with Windows coupled with greater Mac exposure drove growth, but what if those Windows frustrations largely end? What if the perception is that Microsoft has leapt ahead of Apple in the OS game? The added value is then minimized.

I can make the same "brainwashed sucker" argument regarding people who are willing to put up with Windows (at any price). In fact, a Windows user should steer clear of the "brainwashed" accusation entirely. Those who live in glass houses...

I've been in both camps, so I'm far away from being brainwashed. And I will say that Windows 7 is superior to Leopard and is superior to the builds of Snow Leopard I've had access to. Frankly, I've had less problems with this RC of Win7 than I had with my last iMac that fried due to Apple's cheap capacitors and unwillingness to do anything about it, unlike the PC manufacturers out there. The illusion of superior quality, of it being a Mercedes, was gone - but I knew that when my white iBook G3 had repeated video issues due to poor engineering back when I first switched, but Apple did bend over backwards to fix it then. They've since not been so good there and clearly use the same cheap parts that HP, Dell, etc all use.

I've been using Win7 for over two months with ZERO problems. Everything works. Everything moves quickly. It's TRULY 64 bit, unlike OS X until Snow Leopard arrives. It's a great OS and credit is due for MS really working hard on it.

I too have built my own PCs in the past. I'm done with that garbage. A Mac is worth every extra penny to me. And apparently to millions of others as well.

Good for you, but more of us find them to be rip offs. You can have your little niche. I expect many will abandon the Mac when they have to finally replace their machines and they look at the price and then look at Win7. Apple's marketshare will continue to diminish for the desktops and laptops as it has recently. They'll still be profitable and Mac people will still love them, but their chance to truly grow their market significantly will have been lost due to ridiculous bonuses to their head honchos, their ridiculously high profit margin, and their arrogance to think they can dictate terms to consumers.

If you enjoy it then stick with it. That's fine. Apple needs people like you to keep giving them margins of over 20% on machines. As P.T. Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

Paying a little bit more for a laptop or desktop means you're going for superior design quality and the name. Paying 200% over competition means your a sucker.

Let's say a base Toyota Camry with an I4, CD player, etc costs $20K. Would you pay $50,000 for a Toyota Camry with Leather, Nav, Climate Control, and a Moon Roof? That's essentially what you do when you pay $1749 for the MacBook Pro versus the $700 HP. Sure, the MacBook has better specs, but $50,000 for a loaded Camry? Not even Toyota is dumb enough to charge that much for one. Why? Because I guess Mac users don't buy Toyotas. If they did Toyota would jack the price up because they might go for it. After all, it's "premium product."

Maybe I should get Apple's mailing list and buy a car dealership. At least I know I could sell you a $50,000 Camry.

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 10:15 PM

I'm sorry, you lost me after step 1. MS didn't write the virus (just like Apple didn't write the iWork 09 Trojan) and MS didn't bork the hard drive.

I NEVER SAID MICROSOFT WROTE THE VIRUS.

However, using Microsoft software is what exposed him to it. The virus made a mess of his machine, which led to the incompetent repair techs, which led to the data loss. Had he been on a Mac, this particular scenario would not have happened. Period. What is so hard to understand about this? I'm not talking hypotheticals, I'm talking about an actual event that just happened.

Good grief.

Keep fiddling while Rome burns, Windows Defenders. In the meantime, plenty of people, like my neighbor, will be throwing their hands up in disgust and heading for their nearest Apple Store.

Make of that what you will.

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 10:20 PM

I NEVER SAID MICROSOFT WROTE THE VIRUS.

However, using Microsoft software is what exposed him to it. The virus made a mess of his machine, which led to the incompetent repair techs, which led to the data loss. Had he been on a Mac, this particular scenario would not have happened. Period. What is so hard to understand about this? I'm not talking hypotheticals, I'm talking about an actual event that just happened.

Good grief.

Keep fiddling while Rome burns, Windows Defenders. In the meantime, plenty of people, like my neighbor, will be throwing their hands up in disgust and heading for their nearest Apple Store.

Make of that what you will.With great power comes great responsibility.

Otherwise you're better off with some embedded device toaster you can't modify at all. User agent string, your Mac has malware! Install this software to scan for it. All this has happened before and it will happen again.

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 10:20 PM

It's TRULY 64 bit, unlike OS X until Snow Leopard arrives.

Um, doesn't Snow Leopard arrive when Windows 7 does (or close enough to it)? Why yes it does!

And your "The Mac platform is dying!" proclamation would have been true 10 years ago, but it's not true today. If it were, Microsoft wouldn't be running Laptop Hunters ads and building Microsoft Stores (LOL!) next door to Apple Stores.

Vista proved there is a sucker born every minute. And a lot of those suckers are going to think twice about sucking on Windows 7.

polaris20

Jul 20, 2009, 10:24 PM

I NEVER SAID MICROSOFT WROTE THE VIRUS.

However, using Microsoft software is what exposed him to it. The virus made a mess of his machine, which led to the incompetent repair techs, which led to the data loss. Had he been on a Mac, this particular scenario would not have happened. Period. What is so hard to understand about this? I'm not talking hypotheticals, I'm talking about an actual event that just happened.

Good grief.

Keep fiddling while Rome burns, Windows Defenders. In the meantime, plenty of people, like my neighbor, will be throwing their hands up in disgust and heading for their nearest Apple Store.

Make of that what you will.

so what happens when guy gets a Mac, downloads iWork 09 for free, and takes it back to the same retarded techs?

I see what your saying, but the problem is not Windows. A talented moron can break any OS.

Why did he need to get a Mac? He could had a tech (hopefully a different one) replace the drive and put Mint Linux on there. No viruses, and much cheaper too. If the reason for a Mac is less viruses and malware, that's an expensive reason.

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 10:25 PM

Vista proved there is a sucker born every minute. And a lot of those suckers are going to think twice about sucking on Windows 7.Did you try the Vista Beta and RC? Even then it was bad. It felt like moving to 10.0 for the first time. Apple didn't catch up until 10.2/Quartz Extreme and widespread hardware support of it in the responsiveness category.

You went into the 7 Beta/RC with the same expectations of Vista and had your mind blown. Pre-ordering is disturbingly high even with the draconian activation they're doing this time around.

Apple is doing some strange dance of downplaying Snow Leopard as an optimization only to promote Grand Central, OpenCL, and 64-bit (again). It feels a bit unsure for once.

PenguinPower

Jul 20, 2009, 10:26 PM

I will not rmdir /s C:\windows\system32\

100 times on the smart board.

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 10:32 PM

I will not rmdir /s C:\windows\system32\

100 times on the smart board.Single user mode iMac in Fry's Electronics with "rm -rf *" on screen...

My friends and I raged when we saw it.

gunraidan

Jul 20, 2009, 10:45 PM

Tere are enough free antivirus and malware suites out there.
Cable companies, ISPs, yahoo, gmail, aol and so on scan for viruses.
Virus scanners and yes the free ones scan downloads, emails, external drives, download content.
Cmon, getting a virus in todays computing age is irresponsibility of the user.
i can't recall how many viruses I have downloaded from legit sites.

Explain to me how I followed these rules and still had to use Dban because I got a wicked malware?

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 10:50 PM

Why did he need to get a Mac? He could had a tech (hopefully a different one) replace the drive and put Mint Linux on there. No viruses, and much cheaper too. If the reason for a Mac is less viruses and malware, that's an expensive reason.

Linux??? Not even close to being consumer-ready. Sorry, it's just not. You claim he's techno-idiot but want him to use Linux? Does not compute.

As for the "expensive reason" - I think my neighbor now realizes it's money well spent.

Sometimes you can't put a price on peace of mind...

PenguinPower

Jul 20, 2009, 10:55 PM

I think we have twiddled this down to the end where we all decide your neighbor will be limited to a rock and a Rolodex. Any adventuress in his tech usages would be put through an extensive arbitration panel for decision.

LagunaSol

Jul 20, 2009, 10:55 PM

Well, it's been fun guys. I'm off to find some URLs to send my neighbor (on his phone, as his computer is toast) re: my iMac recommendations. While I'm helping him set up his new computer I'll give him your regards. I'm sure he'll be touched by your concern for his checkbook balance.

Feel free to carry on discussing amongst yourselves (as apparently there's no suitable Windows fan forum to do so) the awesomeness of Windows, the stupidity of its user base, and how you managed to overclock that sweet mobo you scored on eBay to 6 ghz while cooling it with a radiator from a '68 Pontiac.

So peace out, homies. Pour a 40 on Vista for me. May your days (and nights) be virus and malware free, and may Windows 7 make all of your wildest OS X-derivative dreams come true. :p

Eidorian

Jul 20, 2009, 10:57 PM

PenguinPower

Jul 20, 2009, 10:59 PM

One time, I clicked on Synaptic and typed in firefox, and it installed!

Mr. MacPhisto

Jul 20, 2009, 11:13 PM

Um, doesn't Snow Leopard arrive when Windows 7 does (or close enough to it)? Why yes it does!

And it is going to cause more of a whimper than any OS X release. But Vista 64 was truly 64 bit well before now, so Apple is well behind the eight ball. Then consider their misadventures with Carbon64 and the fact that THEY THEMSELVES are behind in the 64 bit race with their own products and you begin to see the issues.

And your "The Mac platform is dying!" proclamation would have been true 10 years ago, but it's not true today. If it were, Microsoft wouldn't be running Laptop Hunters ads and building Microsoft Stores (LOL!) next door to Apple Stores.

I didn't say the platform is dying, I said it will diminish and that Apple will remain profitable.

And remember that this is a two sided coin for Apple. They've never had to fight off an aggressive Microsoft. If their solution to the Laptop Hunters adds is to call up MS and beg them to stop competing aggressively then Apple is in trouble. They have a stale ad campaign that was great when it came out but is old now. And MS has done a bang up job of pimping Windows 7. All the discussion I've read has been overwhelmingly positive. The press is certainly behind them, something that was not true with the Vista launch.

Apple has grown playing off of MS's mistakes in the OS market. They've made fun of Windows as being less hip, less easy to use, etc. What if that changes and goes out the door?

Apple is entering into new territory. They're not used to having another computer store nearby theirs. What if their sales are negatively impacted by MS stores? How will they respond? Maybe they can call up Microsoft and ask them to close the stores because competing with Apple is unfair.

Vista proved there is a sucker born every minute. And a lot of those suckers are going to think twice about sucking on Windows 7.

Not really. And Vista is a lot better than you think it is. I was amazed when I installed it of how unfair the rap was against it. It did have its problems.

But also remember that MS has opened up Windows 7 for free downloads through August with the RC. Millions are already using it. Millions have already taken advantage of the cheap upgrades. They know what it is. They won't think twice because they've already been using it. I shelled out my $49 upgrade price as soon as I could and had been using Windows 7 for two months at that point.

And the actual release version will be a bit faster as MS has already tweaked the build and the reports on it are quite good.

I think Microsoft is on firm ground.

http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/07/15/in-8-hours-windows-7-pre-orders-overtake-vista-pre-orders/

Windows 7 will sell at a blistering pace and Apple is already backing off hyping Snow Leopard because they know doing so might come back to bite them.

And unlike Apple, MS offered the cheap upgrade price to those using the past two generations of their OS. Apple offered their uber cheap upgrade only to Leopard users, well under 50% of their installed user base. And Apple made the mistake of describing it as an "update" to Leopard which MS responded, "That sounds like a service pack and we don't charge for service packs." Anyone who is not on Leopard will be paying $179 if I recall. That's most Mac users and those with the PowerPC are hosed.

And you can hammer Vista all you like, but Apple did no better when they changed their kernel and basically rebuilt their OS from the ground up (or NeXTStep). OSX 10.0 sucked. OSX 10.1 at least functioned. Jaguar was decent, but XP was still a better OS at that point. Jaguar was released over a year after Cheetah and Apple charged for it. It took Apple 2.5 years until they really got OSX right with Panther. It took MS a bit over a year before Vista SP1 was released and that's when Vista was massively improved.

Apple has two MS releases to worry about. Windows 7 and the Zune HD. Both will put pressure on Apple. And I imagine that MS will carry upscale laptops and desktops at their retail locations that will be as good or superior to Macs at better prices. Don't be surprised if they get HP or someone to make snazzy aluminum laptops with similar features to the MacBooks for $500 less.

djellison

Jul 21, 2009, 01:44 AM

I use both as well. Mac since 1991. Windows since 1993. I could write an epic novel regarding the Windows issues I've had to deal with. My Mac issues would be more of a short story - illustrated, of course, to get the page count up. ;)

That's just fact, not hyperbole.

I could write an epic novel regardng the OSX Issues I've had to deal with. Safari still refuses to get through the day without crashing several times. Give it some Animated Gif's and it's like it forgets what it's supposed to be doing and decides to just spin a little ball around for a few minute . Forever people have said 'Oh - you don't need to restart OSX". You do when, for no reason, without any warning, the network section of finder JUST VANISHES. And WiFi? Frickin Wifi? Oh my GOD the pain I've had with Mac's and bloody Wifi. Weeks and weeks. I was THIS DAMN CLOSE to throwing the damn thing out the window. Trying to use my Mac on a train? Forget it - you can never get a seat in such an angle whereby the damn mirror of a screen will let you achieve anything. And let's see - the £70 DL-DVI adaptor for my UBMB. It doesn't work. That's right. £70 for a video adaptor and, at random, every few minutes, maybe after an hour - it'll corrupt the screen and I'll have to unplug it, plug it back in. Of course, it's a real fiddle to do it because it takes a damn USB port and Apple only think I need two. One for the DL-DVI, one for a mouse and Ooops - where do I put my Printer. Hmm - well, one for the Keyboard with the USB ports on it. Put the mouse into that, and oops- some nonsense about USB power. I'm on my second power adaptor. They die on me after a few months. My old MBP has got through two. My even older White Plastic MB got through two as well. And two keyboard.

My word of Mac experiences is more pain filled than my PC experiences - and I look after not just my DIY workstation at home, but 9 PC's at work as well. I'm not an IT specialist by any means - but I don't have colleagues saying "Err - the internet dies every time I look at Animated Gifs, and I've run out of USB ports"

That's just fact, not hyperbole.

Mac's are not the second coming of Christ. PC's are not the digital personification of Satan.

I have had more frustration with 3.5 years of Macs than 20 years of PC's.

Norco

Jul 21, 2009, 02:14 AM

polaris20

Jul 21, 2009, 06:23 AM

Linux??? Not even close to being consumer-ready. Sorry, it's just not. You claim he's techno-idiot but want him to use Linux? Does not compute.

As for the "expensive reason" - I think my neighbor now realizes it's money well spent.

Sometimes you can't put a price on peace of mind...

and with that you show that you know zip about Linux. Ubuntu (and Mint, which is a derivative of Ubuntu) is so easy to use, it's actually less of a shock than the transition from Windows to Mac.

For the average person doing Internet, music, e-mail, etc it works quite well. And your neighbor could surf all the pr0n he wants with zero worries of infection.

Linux performs better on identical hardware than any version of Windows.

Linux isn't just for the techno geek anymore. Had you been paying attention to the industry, you'd have noticed it comes on many netbooks, and Dell has been selling consumer laptops and desktops with it for awhile now.

iEdd

Jul 21, 2009, 06:28 AM

and with that you show that you know zip about Linux. Ubuntu (and Mint, which is a derivative of Ubuntu) is so easy to use, it's actually less of a shock than the transition from Windows to Mac.

Doesn't that prove the point further of ignorance/fear of the average person with Linux? ie. Proves his point that it isn't consumer ready - if nothing else than lack of marketing/education about open source.

polaris20

Jul 21, 2009, 06:32 AM

It sounds like problems just follow some of these users, machine after machine. Almost every computer I've used, Dell's, self built, and Mac's have been rock solid with little hardware problems. Maybe some of you just have an electrostatic charge that zap's all your equipment?

I don't have the drama either, on either side. My MBP has been perfect. Several Macs at work, MBP's, MB's, MP's, Minis.....all fine. Thinkpads running XP? All good, solid laptops. HP workstations? Not a problem. HP laptops? Crap boxes, which is why the last of them will be rotated out by Sept.

polaris20

Jul 21, 2009, 06:37 AM

Doesn't that prove the point further of ignorance/fear of the average person with Linux? ie. Proves his point that it isn't consumer ready - if nothing else than lack of marketing/education about open source.

What does ignorance have to do with how easy to use it is?

It doesn't. My sister had never heard of Ubuntu. She wanted to transfer her Windows license to another machine, and still use the old machine for her computer illiterate husband. I put Ubuntu on there. 6 months later, they love it.

So how does not knowing about it equal ease of use and whether or not it's consumer ready? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Mattie Num Nums

Jul 21, 2009, 06:25 PM

Bottom line is this. Inside every Mac is a PC. The only difference being the Operating System. Different strokes for different folks.

Mr. MacPhisto

Jul 21, 2009, 06:59 PM

I could write an epic novel regardng the OSX Issues I've had to deal with. Safari still refuses to get through the day without crashing several times. Give it some Animated Gif's and it's like it forgets what it's supposed to be doing and decides to just spin a little ball around for a few minute . Forever people have said 'Oh - you don't need to restart OSX". You do when, for no reason, without any warning, the network section of finder JUST VANISHES. And WiFi? Frickin Wifi? Oh my GOD the pain I've had with Mac's and bloody Wifi. Weeks and weeks. I was THIS DAMN CLOSE to throwing the damn thing out the window. Trying to use my Mac on a train? Forget it - you can never get a seat in such an angle whereby the damn mirror of a screen will let you achieve anything. And let's see - the £70 DL-DVI adaptor for my UBMB. It doesn't work. That's right. £70 for a video adaptor and, at random, every few minutes, maybe after an hour - it'll corrupt the screen and I'll have to unplug it, plug it back in. Of course, it's a real fiddle to do it because it takes a damn USB port and Apple only think I need two. One for the DL-DVI, one for a mouse and Ooops - where do I put my Printer. Hmm - well, one for the Keyboard with the USB ports on it. Put the mouse into that, and oops- some nonsense about USB power. I'm on my second power adaptor. They die on me after a few months. My old MBP has got through two. My even older White Plastic MB got through two as well. And two keyboard.

My word of Mac experiences is more pain filled than my PC experiences - and I look after not just my DIY workstation at home, but 9 PC's at work as well. I'm not an IT specialist by any means - but I don't have colleagues saying "Err - the internet dies every time I look at Animated Gifs, and I've run out of USB ports"

That's just fact, not hyperbole.

Mac's are not the second coming of Christ. PC's are not the digital personification of Satan.

I have had more frustration with 3.5 years of Macs than 20 years of PC's.

I've found on every network, with every router that I've used that the Macs love to drip the wireless connections for no reason. They just cut out and I usually have to reset the router for them to find it again. Happened with the iBooks, the MacBook, and the iMac.

I didn't realize how bad it was until I built a PC again and have not had it drop the wireless connection once.

Actually the biggest problem I have with my PC is with iTunes. It loves to cause system interrupts with the latest version and causes all my cores to suddenly go full bore. Not happy at all with that. iTunes is the only program that does that - and then it forces itself onto the desktop and created a broken link when I dared to delete the shortcut off the desktop.

Apple just seems to have become a lot more like Microsoft was 10 years ago. Arrogant. They force their crap on you and it's a pain to get rid of Apple update or stop it from trying to update.

And Safari? How many security holes have been found in it? FireFox eats it alive on the PC as does IE8, though IE8 has other problems (it's quirky with several message board editors).

polaris20

Jul 21, 2009, 10:00 PM

I've found on every network, with every router that I've used that the Macs love to drip the wireless connections for no reason. They just cut out and I usually have to reset the router for them to find it again. Happened with the iBooks, the MacBook, and the iMac.

I didn't realize how bad it was until I built a PC again and have not had it drop the wireless connection once.

Actually the biggest problem I have with my PC is with iTunes. It loves to cause system interrupts with the latest version and causes all my cores to suddenly go full bore. Not happy at all with that. iTunes is the only program that does that - and then it forces itself onto the desktop and created a broken link when I dared to delete the shortcut off the desktop.

Apple just seems to have become a lot more like Microsoft was 10 years ago. Arrogant. They force their crap on you and it's a pain to get rid of Apple update or stop it from trying to update.

And Safari? How many security holes have been found in it? FireFox eats it alive on the PC as does IE8, though IE8 has other problems (it's quirky with several message board editors).

I've not had issues with any of the Macs with wireless at work, nor with mine. Just goes to show Apple isn't perfect, but they're not always horrible either.

bobertoq

Jul 21, 2009, 10:45 PM

Tere are enough free antivirus and malware suites out there.
Cable companies, ISPs, yahoo, gmail, aol and so on scan for viruses.
Virus scanners and yes the free ones scan downloads, emails, external drives, download content.
Cmon, getting a virus in todays computing age is irresponsibility of the user.
i can't recall how many viruses I have downloaded from legit sites.I concur. I only recall downloading one virus in the last 4 or 5 years. Which was caught by my expensive antivirus. Not only that browsers scan for viruses, too (Firefox anyway) so if you get a virus you are a silly person.

MagnusVonMagnum

Jul 22, 2009, 12:27 AM

You had a semi level-headed, rational argument until your last sentence, which jumped you solidly into troll territory. And that's too bad.

How was stating his opinion/view on the matter jumping into troll territory? Stating how you feel or giving your opinion doesn't by itself make you a troll. Lying about your views to get some kind of glee by ticking people off would make a person a troll. I certainly would not conclude this person is a troll because they think Apple suckers people into thinking their products are somehow special simply because they cost more, despite using the same basic clone hardware these days. It is most certainly why I plan to build a Hackintosh for my next "Mac".

Section 1 of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act states, "Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal". This clause alone (let alone the tying arrangements defined in the Clayton Anti-Trust Act) nullifies Apple's licensing agreement in part in the section where they require Apple brand hardware to install the OS. So I feel quite justified in giving Apple the thumb in that regard. I'll buy their OS. I won't buy their overpriced hardware anymore unless they become competitive in regards to features and prices that appeal to me versus the computer I could build myself. Microsoft has a valid point to make in their ads, in my opinion about the overpriced nature of Mac computers. Apple is able to charge those prices ONLY because you have no other options for hardware if you prefer OS X to Windows.

LagunaSol

Jul 22, 2009, 12:39 AM

I didn't say the platform is dying, I said it will diminish and that Apple will remain profitable.

Quarterly reports today seem to disagree with your "shrinking Mac" prediction.

They've never had to fight off an aggressive Microsoft. If their solution to the Laptop Hunters adds is to call up MS and beg them to stop competing aggressively then Apple is in trouble.

This is horsecrap and you know it. First, we're getting a hearsay report from the Microsoft COO, who almost certainly made this call more colorful than it really was.

And the obvious truth of the matter is Apple legal threatened Microsoft because they inaccurately quoted Apple's prices in their ads, which is illegal. FYI.

And MS has done a bang up job of pimping Windows 7.

"Hey everyone, remember how we screwed you all with Vista? Well now we have something really special for you!"

They've made fun of Windows as being less hip, less easy to use, etc. What if that changes and goes out the door?

Yeah, I'm sure the masters of the blue oxford and the khaki pant will be the purveyors of the Next Cool Thing. :rolleyes:

If anything, your delusions are entertaining!

Maybe they can call up Microsoft and ask them to close the stores because competing with Apple is unfair.

More horsecrap. You're on a roll!

Not really. And Vista is a lot better than you think it is.

"Windows Vista: 100 Satisfied Customers Can't Be Wrong!"

Apple has two MS releases to worry about. Windows 7 and the Zune HD.

Zune HD - LOL! Yeah, all the "cool kids" are clamoring for high-def radio these days.

Meanwhile, the iPod touch is offering a complete computing platform.

Another Me Too product from Microsoft that will eventually be folded up and shoved in the closet. Like Soapbox.

Don't be surprised if they get HP or someone to make snazzy aluminum laptops with similar features to the MacBooks for $500 less.

Oh, I'm sure they will. They gotta look just like the Apple Store, you see.

I can't wait to see this Microsoftian Utopia you dream about.

LagunaSol

Jul 22, 2009, 12:40 AM

How was stating his opinion/view on the matter jumping into troll territory?

Yeah, I guess getting on a Microsoft forum and telling people that Windows is for idiots wouldn't be trolling either. Just my opinion on the matter, you see. :rolleyes:

LagunaSol

Jul 22, 2009, 12:48 AM

Section 1 of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act states, "Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal".

I hate to burst your bubble, but OS X is not a civil right. Apple has every right to restrict their software to their hardware. Your misinterpretation of the law is irrelevant - but justify it all you want if it helps you sleep at night.

The market will decide this issue.

And based on their quarterly report today, I think the market is deciding in Apple's favor.

Goona

Jul 22, 2009, 07:07 AM

Yeah Apple really called with their record number Mac sales and profits, these guys must think we are little kids..

polaris20

Jul 22, 2009, 09:56 AM

Why would Apple have to worry about the ZuneHD? It doesn't have the app store like the iPod Touch, and is more of a media device than a full-on PDA replacement/pocket computer that the Touch is. Besides, a new one will be out in Sept/Oct that leapfrogs anything the HD offers.

As for Windows 7: it is a fantastic OS, but I don't see it actually causing the Mac OS market to shrink. I like it, but I won't be formatting my MBP and installing 7 in it's place. Plus comparing 7 to Leopard and Ubuntu on same hardware it's still slower for the heavy engineering computations we do. Snow Leopard should be even faster. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Still, it'll be nice to get 7 on all the new machines coming in. We bypassed Vista entirely (save a couple machines) and XP is getting long in the tooth.

Goona

Jul 22, 2009, 10:18 AM

Forget the Zune HD, it won't do jack but make a whole lot of noise like first Zune did. People said people will dump their iPods for Zunes wen it was first announced, but it didn't happen. Meanwhile the Zunes are losing money for Microsoft. The iPod touch was announced in 2007 and Microsoft is announcing the Zune HD 2 years later, what compelling feaure is going to drag iPod users away? Last time around it was te squirt feature, we all saw how well that worked. Even the Palm Pre bought more to the table against the iPhone but Apple keeps reporting report quarters and number of iPhones sold. The Zune HD will barely be a blip on Apple's radar.

celtikmind

Jul 22, 2009, 05:36 PM

Lot of childish gibberish

Oh, Laguna, how you have fallen from grace since I was here last... :(

ilovefanboyz

Jul 22, 2009, 10:19 PM

Apple lowered their prices. Clearly they were affected by the commercial. Or was it a coincidence?

Isnt it 30 PC's sold for every 1 Mac worldwide? That sounds like the majority speaking to me ;)

pdjudd

Jul 22, 2009, 10:35 PM

Yeah Apple really called with their record number Mac sales and profits, these guys must think we are little kids..

I think it's fairly obvious that any communications between Apple and Microsoft where the intent is for one company to demand the other company terminate a certain action done by that company it is not done by a phone call from the legal department. It is done by a messenger, certified mail, or a serving of a cease and desist order so that there is a record that the second party received said C&D.

In other words, the whole thing sounds like Ballmer dung. Made up. Apple would never do something to acknowledge that MS' ad's were having an affect on their sales. That goes double from what we learned about Apple's sales last quarter. I am gonna need proof before we can this is anything but garbage.

iEdd

Jul 23, 2009, 02:54 AM

Apple lowered their prices. Clearly they were affected by the commercial. Or was it a coincidence?

Coincidence. Production economics - the CNC machines that make the unibody cases are starting to pay for themselves, so they can afford to lower the prices while maintaining profit margins.

Microsoft's ads might've helped mac sales a bit to cause this , so maybe the prices were indirectly lowered due to the commercial. Certainly not directly though - everyone knows Macs cost more, what they might not have known is they have shiny new cases. ;)

Though I highly doubt the ads affected sales at all. Everyone knows macs cost more. Those that think macs are overpriced crap won't change and those that think macs are worth the extra cost won't change because of the ad.

Goona

Jul 23, 2009, 07:36 AM

Apple lowered their prices. Clearly they were affected by the commercial. Or was it a coincidence?

Isnt it 30 PC's sold for every 1 Mac worldwide? That sounds like the majority speaking to me ;)

Yeah this is the first time Apple has lowered prices for Macs. :rolleyes:

Goona

Jul 23, 2009, 08:49 PM

Instead of worrying about their falling sales and profits, they are more interested in Apple:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/microsoft-sees-first-annual-sales-decline-in-its-history-for-fis/

:rolleyes:

DiamondMac

Jul 24, 2009, 06:48 PM

Apple lowered their prices. Clearly they were affected by the commercial. ;)

Only helps Apple with sales so I am fine with it.

mosx

Jul 24, 2009, 11:32 PM

The best "Apple" for under $2k has 4GB memory.

Ad says 2GB memory.

And, again, there are plenty of Apple notebooks under $2,000 with only 2GB of memory. In fact, I see five of them.

Theres also three products that only ship with 160GB of HDD space or less.

And to be honest, it really doesn't matter how much memory you throw in that MacBook Pro when its still only shipping with a 256MB GeForce 9600M GT at $1,999. You have to go under $500 in the PC world to get that kind of a weak GPU.

I dunno, the vibe I get from the ad is a screaming "I want the Mac, but it is too expensive so I will dump all my previous criteria and get this PC". Seems to just reinforce the fact that it is a luxury item rather than damage the brand.

And what "previous criteria" would that be? Considering that all of the people in the ads so far have ended up with exactly what they wanted (like a 17" system for $700) or systems that were far more fully featured than Macs and offer standard features that Apple does not.

For all every single ad featured so far, every single shopper would have had to give up what they wanted in order to get a Mac. The people in these ads so far have gotten things that would have cost them 2-3x as much, on average, with a Mac, or they've gotten features that simply do not exist on a Mac, like blu-ray, powerful GPUs, proper HDMI with audio support.

When you say "luxury item", you are NOT describing a Mac. "Luxury items" have features and build quality that standard items do not. Macs are missing boatloads of features compared to PCs, the OS isn't as good as Windows, nor as capable, and the build quality is certainly not up there with what you get in a PC. Its that simple.

First, my MBP plays L4D just fine, for the times I actually have time to play a game (this laptop is for real work, not watching movies and video games)

L4D is a game built on a 5 year old engine with advanced lighting tacked on. Thats nothing anything to be impressed with.

Let's compare any of the MacBook Pros to any of the Asus, MSI, Gateway, and other PC notebooks out there that ship with GeForce GT 220, GeForce 9800M GS, etc. for $1200 and below. Let's compare the MacBook Pros to those systems while running GTA4 on all of them.

Thats fine you don't use your MBP for games or movies. It's not quite capable of it anyway, if you're not running Windows natively. You seem to forget, however, that there are more movie lovers and game players out there than there are Mac owners. These things are more important to some people than the vanity of owning a Mac.

Second, Macs are a good value to those who like their workflow and stability.

Workflow? You mean the workflow that gets slowed down because of the ridiculous single menubar, the malfunctioning alt-tab (sorry, command tab) functionality, not to mention the OSes ability to be brought down crashing by any number of apps, including (and especially) Safari?

Yeah, smooth workflow and stability do not exist on OS X. OS X is all about adding to the vanity of the computer.

You apparently are once again having a tough time separating fact vs opinion again; do I need to link the definitions again?

Do I need to link you to all of the debates you've lost and run away from?

However for me, being able to interface seemlessly with the Linux workstations and servers while still having MS Office open, as well as RDPing into Windows machines and running VMWare for testing is just too convenient.

Because none of that can be done on Windows.

Did you sell your MB yet?

Nope. The girl that was supposed to buy it, a life long Mac user, saw me playing with a Dell Studio XPS 13 with dual GPUs and Windows 7 RC1. She loved it. After a couple of hours of using it she wondered why she had stuck with Macs for all the years and promptly used her dying MacBook to order one from the Dell website. So I still have my uMB. However, it's running Windows 7 as its primary OS ;)

LagunaSol

Jul 25, 2009, 12:49 AM

The girl that was supposed to buy it, a life long Mac user, saw me playing with a Dell Studio XPS 13 with dual GPUs and Windows 7 RC1. She loved it. After a couple of hours of using it she wondered why she had stuck with Macs for all the years and promptly used her dying MacBook to order one from the Dell website.

Uh huh.

iEdd

Jul 25, 2009, 01:18 AM

And, again, there are plenty of Apple notebooks under $2,000 with only 2GB of memory. In fact, I see five of them.

Again?

"BEST" is the key word here. In the context of memory, the best has the most, and it is 4GB. The other Macs are significantly less than $2000 with only 2GB, so yes, they are less than $2000, but they are not all the "best".

There are not _five_ *best* notebooks. There is one, and it is obvious in the context of the ad that "under $2000" means "$1999" or really close to $2000, otherwise it's not a significant point.

The point of the ad is saying: You have to spend over $2000 to get a mac with more than 2GB RAM. i.e. You are breaking the $2k budget to get more RAM, which simply isn't true anymore (and has apparently been fixed by Microsoft).

Whether or not you think Macs are poor value has nothing to do with whether or not there is false advertising. Microsoft understand this.

NoSmokingBandit

Jul 25, 2009, 08:43 AM

charlituna

Jul 25, 2009, 09:51 AM

Apple lowered their prices. Clearly they were affected by the commercial. Or was it a coincidence?

I would suspect more coincidence than the ads. If you look at Apple's history for the last few years, they typically revamps the laptops in the fall right after the Back to School ends. they kept the same price but bump the specs. this has probably pissed off some parents who just dropped $1500 or so and now 3 weeks later (and a week after they can return the old one with no issues) there's a better system

THAT combined with the general economy (and more than one complaint about cutting firewire from the 13 inch models) is more likely what provoked the respec and price drop plus the timing.

mosx

Jul 25, 2009, 01:54 PM

Again?

"BEST" is the key word here. In the context of memory, the best has the most, and it is 4GB. The other Macs are significantly less than $2000 with only 2GB, so yes, they are less than $2000, but they are not all the "best".

There are not _five_ *best* notebooks. There is one, and it is obvious in the context of the ad that "under $2000" means "$1999" or really close to $2000, otherwise it's not a significant point.

The point of the ad is saying: You have to spend over $2000 to get a mac with more than 2GB RAM. i.e. You are breaking the $2k budget to get more RAM, which simply isn't true anymore (and has apparently been fixed by Microsoft).

Whether or not you think Macs are poor value has nothing to do with whether or not there is false advertising. Microsoft understand this.

"Best" is a subjective term in some cases. To her, the MacBook Air could have been "the best".

Anyway, the $1999 MacBook Pro can't even be described as "best", considering it comes with a GPU thats so low on video memory and so weak that you get better by spending $700 on a notebook PC.

polaris20

Jul 25, 2009, 03:01 PM

Thats fine you don't use your MBP for games or movies. It's not quite capable of it anyway, if you're not running Windows natively. You seem to forget, however, that there are more movie lovers and game players out there than there are Mac owners. These things are more important to some people than the vanity of owning a Mac.

I'm a movie lover too, which is why I have a 52" HDTV to watch movies on, not a laptop.

Workflow? You mean the workflow that gets slowed down because of the ridiculous single menubar, the malfunctioning alt-tab (sorry, command tab) functionality, not to mention the OSes ability to be brought down crashing by any number of apps, including (and especially) Safari?

Yeah, smooth workflow and stability do not exist on OS X. OS X is all about adding to the vanity of the computer.

You might want to get your computer checked out; I have none of these problems.

Stability exists just fine on my Mac and the Macs I support. Again, you see seem to have a rough time discerning personal anecdotes and fact. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean there's something wrong with it.

Do I need to link you to all of the debates you've lost and run away from?

You mean the debates in which you've provided no proof, but all personal anecdotes or opinions? Then whined to the moderators because people were "picking on you"? Waaaa, waaaaa, waaaaa.

All this from a guy that can't even say what industry he works in when asked to back up anything he says.....to provide one shred of credibility. It's like arguing with a child.

Also funny how it takes you 5 days to respond to my post, and I'm the one that runs away? Also you conveniently ignore everything positive I've said about Win7 in the thread arguing with LagunaSol, and choose just that one post? Wow, you must be stalking me! I'm flattered, I think.

Because none of that can be done on Windows.

When did Windows get the ability to do X session forwards natively? And yes, the rest works fine on Windows (though VMWare Workstation sucks on Windows, IMO). In case you're having a tough time with reading comprehension again, I have no major issues with Windows, particularly 7, which I quite like. I use that on my Thinkpad (please see sig, in case you missed that for the umpteenth time). I prefer OS X as my main machine because it works well for me. It does the same for many other people. It's a shame you don't have the ability to understand this, and just leave it alone.

Nope. The girl that was supposed to buy it, a life long Mac user, saw me playing with a Dell Studio XPS 13 with dual GPUs and Windows 7 RC1. She loved it. After a couple of hours of using it she wondered why she had stuck with Macs for all the years and promptly used her dying MacBook to order one from the Dell website. So I still have my uMB. However, it's running Windows 7 as its primary OS ;)

I guess we'll be blessed with your trolling for awhile then, huh? ;) I think what really happened is the "girl" you were going to sell the laptop from never existed, and you just love coming here and trolling.

"Best" is a subjective term in some cases. To her, the MacBook Air could have been "the best".

You're the last person I'd figure would understand what subjectivity is, when you continue to troll a Mac-centric forums with your MS fanboyism.

LagunaSol

Jul 25, 2009, 03:23 PM

You're the last person I'd figure would understand what subjectivity is, when you continue to troll a Mac-centric forums with your MS fanboyism.

I suggest adding mosx to your ignore list, as I'm doing now. Seriously, the inane Mac bashing on this forum has gotten out of control. This is a Mac users forum. These trolls have plenty of places on the Internet to spew their anti-Apple hatred. MacRumors shouldn't be one of them. It's pathetic that every thread devolves into a Windows vs. Mac war when the preference of the readers of this site is clear.

I'm going to start using my ignore function more liberally. Please feel free to join me. Time to squelch these moronic griefers by stuffing a virtual sock in their virtual pie holes.

polaris20

Jul 25, 2009, 03:24 PM

"Best" is a subjective term in some cases. To her, the MacBook Air could have been "the best".

Anyway, the $1999 MacBook Pro can't even be described as "best", considering it comes with a GPU thats so low on video memory and so weak that you get better by spending $700 on a notebook PC.

Unless you have no need for anything greater than a 9400m or 9600m, and prefer the Mac with OSX. Again, why is it so hard for you to comprehend that many people prefer Macs? Why?

The 15" MBP for $2000 is the best laptop FOR ME. I'm not trying to talk other people into buying one; I couldn't care less what computer someone buys.

Why do you care so much to slag Macs here? It's mind boggling. You're either a troll or someone that's somehow been emotionally damaged by Apple and now feels the need to act as some sort of MS evangelist on a Mac forum. I just can't figure out if it's funny or sad.

polaris20

Jul 25, 2009, 03:26 PM

I suggest adding mosx to your ignore list, as I'm doing now. Seriously, the inane Mac bashing on this forum has gotten out of control. This is a Mac users forum. These trolls have plenty of places on the Internet to spew their anti-Apple hatred. MacRumors shouldn't be one of them. It's pathetic that every thread devolves into a Windows vs. Mac war when the preference of the readers of this site is clear.

I'm going to start using my ignore function more liberally. Please feel free to join me. Time to squelch these moronic griefers by stuffing a virtual sock in their virtual pie holes.

As much as you and I disagree Laguna, you're right on this one. I just can't help it though; it's like a trainwreck of text that I have to read. :D

Eidorian

Jul 25, 2009, 03:27 PM

I suggest adding mosx to your ignore list, as I'm doing now. Seriously, the inane Mac bashing on this forum has gotten out of control. This is a Mac users forum. These trolls have plenty of places on the Internet to spew their anti-Apple hatred. MacRumors shouldn't be one of them. It's pathetic that every thread devolves into a Windows vs. Mac war when the preference of the readers of this site is clear.

I'm going to start using my ignore function more liberally. Please feel free to join me. Time to squelch these moronic griefers by stuffing a virtual sock in their virtual pie holes.I've tried using the ignore list but you usually end up reading their posts anyways. It just makes it more annoying to do it.

LagunaSol

Jul 25, 2009, 03:30 PM

I just can't help it though; it's like a trainwreck of text that I have to read. :D

Yeah, it used to be slightly entertaining, until the overwhelming number of griefers turned this forum into a junkyard full of trainwrecks. :(

Many of these tools have joined in the last couple of months. Coordinated astroturfing campaign? You decide.

polaris20

Jul 25, 2009, 03:30 PM

I've tried using the ignore list but you usually end up reading their posts anyways. It just makes it more annoying to do it.

Yeah, I ignored him before, but ignoring here is like seeing the smoke from the trainwreck, but not the actual wreck. You end up walking over the hill to see the mess anyways. Still, I think I'll try it again.

LagunaSol

Jul 25, 2009, 03:32 PM

I've tried using the ignore list but you usually end up reading their posts anyways. It just makes it more annoying to do it.

True. MacRumors seriously needs to revamp their ignore/block functionality. Just don't post their name in the thread at all - that's what I'd like to see (along with a quicker/easier way to block the user).

Sadly, I still have to see their nonsense when someone else replies to them and it shows up in my email on threads I've subscribed to. :rolleyes:

Eidorian

Jul 25, 2009, 03:36 PM

Why do you care so much to slag Macs here? It's mind boggling. You're either a troll or someone that's somehow been emotionally damaged by Apple and now feels the need to act as some sort of MS evangelist on a Mac forum. I just can't figure out if it's funny or sad.

Yeah, I ignored him before, but ignoring here is like seeing the smoke from the trainwreck, but not the actual wreck. You end up walking over the hill to see the mess anyways. Still, I think I'll try it again.

True. MacRumors seriously needs to revamp their ignore/block functionality. Just don't post their name in the thread at all - that's what I'd like to see (along with a quicker/easier way to block the user).

Sadly, I still have to see their nonsense when someone else replies to them and it shows up in my email on threads I've subscribed to. :rolleyes:You'd be surprised at the self-loathing streak that I've noticed in plenty of Mac users here and on other boards. Sure we'll usually buy our Apple hardware but it doesn't mean we love it.

It's some sort of strange middle ground that I believe is created by the rather vocal extreme side that just loves to jump to the defense of mother Apple, etc. You don't want to be associated with it but then you get targeted by your fellow Mac users and the other extreme on the non-Apple sides.

polaris20

Jul 25, 2009, 03:38 PM

True. MacRumors seriously needs to revamp their ignore/block functionality. Just don't post their name in the thread at all - that's what I'd like to see (along with a quicker/easier way to block the user).

Sadly, I still have to see their nonsense when someone else replies to them and it shows up in my email on threads I've subscribed to. :rolleyes:

I don't even subscribe to threads anymore, because after a couple pages it's the same crap over and over again anyway.

It boils down to:

1. I love Macs, and I hate Windows.
2. I love Macs, but I still like Windows and/or Linux.
3. I used to love Macs, but they scorned me and now I must troll endlessly.
4. I've never had a Mac, and never will because there's no choice, yet strangely I come here anyway (!)

You're in category 1, I'm in category 2. It's 3 and 4 that truly baffle me.

polaris20

Jul 25, 2009, 03:41 PM

You'd be surprised at the self-loathing streak that I've noticed in plenty of Mac users here and on other boards. Sure we'll usually buy our Apple hardware but it doesn't mean we love it.

It's some sort of strange middle ground that I believe is created by the rather vocal extreme side that just loves to jump to the defense of mother Apple, etc. You don't want to be associated with it but then you get targeted by your fellow Mac users and the other extreme on the non-Apple sides.

I'm not religious about any platform; I think I've made that pretty clear. What I will say is that I've never had any problem with OS X or my Mac, nor any of the other Macs I support (from the Mini to the Pro).

That being said, I realize that that is just a personal anecdote, as a handful of machines is not a scientific study. I realize people have had problems with OS X. It's not infallible.

Windows isn't perfect either, and shouldn't be treated as such. Linux, as amazing of a point of progress as they've made, is certainly not perfect.

People prefer what they prefer, and they generally have a good reason for it. The crusade to change people's minds is ignorant, and a profound waste of time.

Eidorian

Jul 25, 2009, 03:45 PM

People prefer what they prefer, and they generally have a good reason for it. The crusade to change people's minds is ignorant, and a profound waste of time.I think it defeats the purpose to extol the virtues of OS X to people that can't afford it or can't have their goals accomplished by using it and the software on it.

I don't see a need to beat my chest over my Apple Pride™ here of all places. I'll do my damage control over elsewhere where it's needed. Believe me there's plenty of damage control I have to do. Even here.

LagunaSol

Jul 25, 2009, 05:46 PM

You'd be surprised at the self-loathing streak that I've noticed in plenty of Mac users here and on other boards. Sure we'll usually buy our Apple hardware but it doesn't mean we love it.

And there should be dissent. And solid discussion. Heaven knows I have plenty of gripes about Apple. But I can't voice them because I'm too busy responding to the "only idiots buy Apple crap" garbage that is constantly vomited by a growing number of griefers on this forum. And this constant counterattack makes me sound like an obsessed fanboy. Which I assume is part of their agenda.

Eidorian

Jul 25, 2009, 06:13 PM

And there should be dissent. And solid discussion. Heaven knows I have plenty of gripes about Apple. But I can't voice them because I'm too busy responding to the "only idiots buy Apple crap" garbage that is constantly vomited by a growing number of griefers on this forum. And this constant counterattack makes me sound like an obsessed fanboy. Which I assume is part of their agenda.I've seen rational, reasonable criticism of Apple get lured into a shouting match as to who can prove how much more right you are than anyone else.

It's tiresomely predictable when you can call out exactly who is going to post what before they even post it in a thread. Occasionally my mind is blown when those actors don't play their parts. Another reason I don't have an ignore list anymore, again. You get so used to it and then out of the blue a reply that's so out of character. You pray for those moments.

polaris20

Jul 25, 2009, 10:11 PM

I've seen rational, reasonable criticism of Apple get lured into a shouting match as to who can prove how much more right you are than anyone else.

It's tiresomely predictable when you can call out exactly who is going to post what before they even post it in a thread. Occasionally my mind is blown when those actors don't play their parts. Another reason I don't have an ignore list anymore, again. You get so used to it and then out of the blue a reply that's so out of character. You pray for those moments.

Who's waiting for the big multi-quote? I know I am!

"you just can't handle the truth"

"everything is based on facts"

"OSX crashes"

"Macs are underpowered and unreliable"

lather, rinse, repeat.

charlituna

Jul 26, 2009, 10:28 AM

someone made a comment about the laptop folks getting what they wanted so why diss that it was a windows machine.

for the most part this is true. however, the ads still suck. they are just lame ads. they could have been done a lot cleaner and slicker and still come out the same. Microsoft and Crispin et al opened themselves up for the snark

but one ad in particular really sucks. the filmmaker. I'm sorry but that should have never been used. that woman should have never called herself a filmmaker. because very few to no film houses are using windows for film work. they are using macs with final cut studio, avid on a mac or unix/linux based render farms. I work in the industry I have seen it myself. Heck CBP (the agency that made the ads) is one of the biggest Mac using houses in the ad industry.

"and I want something to edit my home movies" should have been the line. cause yes you can totally do that on a PC. even a 7 year old can do it. we have an ad to prove it.

but seriously, with my film industry friends, that ad is a total joke.

LagunaSol

Jul 26, 2009, 10:41 AM

Microsoft and Crispin et al opened themselves up for the snark

Crispin Porter + Bogusky completely jumped the shark when they agreed to orchestrate Microsoft's "cool makeover." Talk about completely wrecking your brand (the ad agency - not MS, which was wrecked long ago). Nice move, Bogusky.

Epic fail.

(At least they probably got a huge paycheck out of the deal)

polaris20

Jul 26, 2009, 02:58 PM

DMann

Jul 27, 2009, 03:32 AM

I actually think that the ads are doing a great disservice to MS, in particular Windows. Why does MS have to go the cost route? Is Windows 7 not a spectacular improvement over Vista (hint: yes, it is)?

Why not compete on quality instead of cost? I know the economy is crap right now, but it won't always be the case.

Even if I were to buy a Windows laptop, I wouldn't buy a cheap POS from Best Buy. I'd buy a high quality Win-machine. Oh wait; I did. It's a Thinkpad T series. :D

To me, these ads are saying "buy a Windows PC; because they're cheap".This has all been an aimless venture for MS, especially since they do not even manufacture PCs. If they believe that OEM sales can be enticed via a lame effort to steer consumers away from Apple, by virtue of the "cheapness" of hardware, then the indirect nature of this endeavor is truly baffling, as the mere attention given to Apple's premium products amidst the lack of attention alloted toward MS's product will more than likely benefit Apple in the long run.

Chappers

Jul 27, 2009, 05:13 AM

Nope. The girl that was supposed to buy it, a life long Mac user, saw me playing with a Dell Studio XPS 13 with dual GPUs and Windows 7 RC1. She loved it. After a couple of hours of using it she wondered why she had stuck with Macs for all the years and promptly used her dying MacBook to order one from the Dell website. So I still have my uMB. However, it's running Windows 7 as its primary OS ;)

I saw the pictures - the Dell XPS 13 looks fat but otherwise quite sweet but if I change I want the following.

2.53GHz dual core processor or better
Bluetooth (must have)
LED screen. MB has it - I want it.
You say Blu-ray is good - I'll have that too (how does it affect battery life?)
I don't play games.

Any draw backs ?

PS. (what will a Windows 7 upgrade cost) ? You and Polaris20 say its good - I'll take your word for it.

Whats the total price

PS. Is your MB still for sale then - how much do you want for it (or what was the previous buyer going to pay?)

mosx

Sep 9, 2009, 03:05 PM

Also funny how it takes you 5 days to respond to my post, and I'm the one that runs away?

Unlike some people, I don't have the luxury of sitting around all day posting on forums ;) And yes, you have run away from arguments.

I'm a movie lover too, which is why I have a 52" HDTV to watch movies on, not a laptop.

People don't always have the luxury of watching a movie at home on a large TV. A lot of people travel a lot, students in college can't have a large TV in dorms, some people simply don't want a large TV.

You mean the debates in which you've provided no proof, but all personal anecdotes or opinions? Then whined to the moderators because people were "picking on you"?

I guess you're referring to the moderators coming after you after some of your posts? That wasn't me ;)

All this from a guy that can't even say what industry he works in when asked to back up anything he says.....to provide one shred of credibility.

Again, I don't have to prove a single thing to some random person on a forum that has been proven wrong time and time again in endless debates.

I guess we'll be blessed with your trolling for awhile then, huh? I think what really happened is the "girl" you were going to sell the laptop from never existed, and you just love coming here and trolling.

You can think whatever you want. She backed out of the sale. End of story. She realized Macs were not worth the money and shes happier now with her PC than she ever had been with a Mac. Even though I lost out on getting rid of my Mac, I'm happy for her because shes finally happy with a properly functioning computer.

The 15" MBP for $2000 is the best laptop FOR ME. I'm not trying to talk other people into buying one; I couldn't care less what computer someone buys.

Thats good for you that you like to be ripped off. It might be "the best for you", but as a computer goes, it's not even half of what a system costing half as much is. So if you feel that over spending by about $1,300 is the best option for you, then good for you. The rest of the world will stick to more powerful and cheaper hardware that runs a more stable OS.

Why do you care so much to slag Macs here? It's mind boggling. You're either a troll or someone that's somehow been emotionally damaged by Apple and now feels the need to act as some sort of MS evangelist on a Mac forum.

Irony at its finest.

I don't "slag" Macs. I simply tell the truth.

I saw the pictures - the Dell XPS 13 looks fat but otherwise quite sweet but if I change I want the following.

2.53GHz dual core processor or better
Bluetooth (must have)
LED screen. MB has it - I want it.
You say Blu-ray is good - I'll have that too (how does it affect battery life?)
I don't play games.

Blu-ray isn't available on the Dell Studio XPS 13. But in my experience, most PCs can play through a full movie while playing blu-ray discs.

Dell offers up to a 2.8GHz processor on the Studio XPS 13, as well as Bluetooth and an LED backlit screen.

However, there are some things to realize. Bluetooth is useless. I've had it on PCs for more than 4 years now and I've NEVER used it other than my MX5000 and MX5500 keyboard and mouse sets. I tried using the built-in bluetooth in the Mac for that and I get constant signal drops. It's ridiculous.

The LED screen also provides no visible increase in quality over a CCFL screen other than "instant on". Apple (and Dell) use edge-lit LED screens, so all you're getting is an instant on back light and and a slightly thinner display. You're not getting ANY visual enhancements.

PS. Is your MB still for sale then - how much do you want for it (or what was the previous buyer going to pay?)

Right now its living quite happily as a Windows 7 system with Boot Camp 3. I'm debating on whether or not to cover up the Apple logos and use it as a Windows only system or try to sell it again.

Darth.Titan

Sep 9, 2009, 03:37 PM

Took you over a month to write that?

polaris20

Sep 9, 2009, 08:49 PM

Unlike some people, I don't have the luxury of sitting around all day posting on forums ;) And yes, you have run away from arguments.

People don't always have the luxury of watching a movie at home on a large TV. A lot of people travel a lot, students in college can't have a large TV in dorms, some people simply don't want a large TV.

I guess you're referring to the moderators coming after you after some of your posts? That wasn't me ;)

Again, I don't have to prove a single thing to some random person on a forum that has been proven wrong time and time again in endless debates.

You can think whatever you want. She backed out of the sale. End of story. She realized Macs were not worth the money and shes happier now with her PC than she ever had been with a Mac. Even though I lost out on getting rid of my Mac, I'm happy for her because shes finally happy with a properly functioning computer.

Thats good for you that you like to be ripped off. It might be "the best for you", but as a computer goes, it's not even half of what a system costing half as much is. So if you feel that over spending by about $1,300 is the best option for you, then good for you. The rest of the world will stick to more powerful and cheaper hardware that runs a more stable OS.

Irony at its finest.

I don't "slag" Macs. I simply tell the truth.

Blu-ray isn't available on the Dell Studio XPS 13. But in my experience, most PCs can play through a full movie while playing blu-ray discs.

Dell offers up to a 2.8GHz processor on the Studio XPS 13, as well as Bluetooth and an LED backlit screen.

However, there are some things to realize. Bluetooth is useless. I've had it on PCs for more than 4 years now and I've NEVER used it other than my MX5000 and MX5500 keyboard and mouse sets. I tried using the built-in bluetooth in the Mac for that and I get constant signal drops. It's ridiculous.

The LED screen also provides no visible increase in quality over a CCFL screen other than "instant on". Apple (and Dell) use edge-lit LED screens, so all you're getting is an instant on back light and and a slightly thinner display. You're not getting ANY visual enhancements.

Right now its living quite happily as a Windows 7 system with Boot Camp 3. I'm debating on whether or not to cover up the Apple logos and use it as a Windows only system or try to sell it again.

HAHA welcome back. I must say, not up to your usual standards, especially having ran away for over a month (speaking of irony). What's a matter, did you go crying to a moderator and they refused to do anything for you?

As usual, the same opinions as fact, complete misunderstanding of what a personal anecdote is, and fear of exposing their complete lack of qualification by stating what field of profession they're in.

Let's be more creative next time, huh Mosx?

And as far as the difference between CCFL and LED backlit screens, having had two T400 Thinkpads side by side, as well as W500's, R400's, and an X301 all with mixtures of CCFL and LED, I'd say that you need to get your eyes checked. LED is definitely better, in my opinion. I say opinion, because while I've clearly seen more computers than you have, I still actually comprehend what a personal anecdote is.

And I use Bluetooth everyday on Mac, Linux, and Windows 7. I don't see what's so useless about it. Oh wait, that's right; you don't like it, therefore it's useless. Classic Mosx Logic.

Again, welcome back! We missed you!! Please, don't make it so long between posts. It's been too long.

LagunaSol

Sep 9, 2009, 08:54 PM

Oh wait, that's right; you don't like it, therefore it's useless. Classic Mosx Logic.

Why are people still feeding the bitter Apple hating trolls?

polaris20

Sep 9, 2009, 09:05 PM

Why are people still feeding the bitter Apple hating trolls?

Because the comedic value still holds up for me, and he'll post anyway, so might as well make the most of it!

I sure hope for 2010 he gets a new playbook though. Some of these posts are starting to run together. I can nearly post for him now, as it's always the same canned response.

Chappers

Sep 10, 2009, 02:31 AM

Blu-ray isn't available on the Dell Studio XPS 13. But in my experience, most PCs can play through a full movie while playing blu-ray discs.

Dell offers up to a 2.8GHz processor on the Studio XPS 13, as well as Bluetooth and an LED backlit screen.

However, there are some things to realize. Bluetooth is useless. I've had it on PCs for more than 4 years now and I've NEVER used it other than my MX5000 and MX5500 keyboard and mouse sets. I tried using the built-in bluetooth in the Mac for that and I get constant signal drops. It's ridiculous.

The LED screen also provides no visible increase in quality over a CCFL screen other than "instant on". Apple (and Dell) use edge-lit LED screens, so all you're getting is an instant on back light and and a slightly thinner display. You're not getting ANY visual enhancements.

Right now its living quite happily as a Windows 7 system with Boot Camp 3. I'm debating on whether or not to cover up the Apple logos and use it as a Windows only system or try to sell it again.

Not wishing to argue a point but you've used BT for keyboard and mouse sets - so its not useless. Also I use it almost everyday so it's not useless.
So if you finally want to help - tell me how a Dell Studio XPS 13 will cost with the features I asked you for- also without the slot drive but with a tray drive ( I know you hate slot drives) :D

I'm serious about buying a PC - I need one for postgraduate studies - and this Dell looks good and your friend bought one on your recommendation - so it must be good.
I've described what I need - what will it cost?

And how much for your unibody MB?

polaris20

Sep 10, 2009, 10:04 PM

Not wishing to argue a point but you've used BT for keyboard and mouse sets - so its not useless. Also I use it almost everyday so it's not useless.
So if you finally want to help - tell me how a Dell Studio XPS 13 will cost with the features I asked you for- also without the slot drive but with a tray drive ( I know you hate slot drives) :D

I'm serious about buying a PC - I need one for postgraduate studies - and this Dell looks good and your friend bought one on your recommendation - so it must be good.
I've described what I need - what will it cost?

And how much for your unibody MB?

The XPS 13 configured as the 2.53Ghz MBP is would run you about $1200, $300 less than the MBP. Though since this is for school, subtract $100 from the MBP like I did (also doing graduate work).

We had one of these in a few weeks ago; an employee brought their personal XPS13 in for us to take a look at. It's not a bad box, albeit a bit cheap feeling as most Dells are. Feels like a $600 machine, not $1200.

If you're looking for a quality Win machine in the range of a MBP or so, go Thinkpad. There really is no other brand IMO for Windows laptops.

A T400 configured identically configured to the Dell or MBP13 2.53Ghz is also around $1200, has a dedicated ATI Radeon, and just blows the Dell away in construction, and will definitely last longer than the Dell. It's just a quality machine that will run Win7 beautifully.