No 3GHz Soon and No G5 Laptop

[MacRumors]

MacCentral (http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2004/06/09/apple/index.php?redirect=1086765595000) quotes Apple's Directory of Power Mac Product Marketing, Tom Boger regarding the 3GHz prediction from Steve Jobs last year. According to Boger, Apple will not meet the 3GHz promise:

When we made that prediction, we just didn't realize the challenges moving to 90 nanometer would present. It turned out to be a much bigger challenge than anyone expected.

All-in-all, no we are not getting to 3GHz anytime soon, but what we are announcing today is a very significant upgrade in performance and its something that are customers will be very happy with.

Boger also states that users should not expect G5 PowerBooks this year.

[Over Achiever]

Ouch ... I was really looking forward to getting a G5 powerbook this year.

Another broken promise it seems? Not like it wasn't expected after all. Oh well, nice upgrades. Looking forward for new displays! ^_^

-OA

[arn]

Hopefully this will stop the "Apple will release 3GHz machines next week" speculation

arn

[Over Achiever]

Haha, that'd be kinda silly to release new machines next week ... ^^;;

[azdude]

Hopefully this will stop the "Apple will release 3GHz machines next week" speculation

arn

Yes, but we can still (realistically) hope for a G5 iMac.

Steve loves triumphant, major iMac revisions... it'll be a great show. :D

[Over Achiever]

Yes, but we can still (realistically) hope for a G5 iMac.

Steve loves triumphant, major iMac revisions... it'll be a great show. :D
The iMac was quoted without a timeframe, was with the same cooling issues as the powerbook. So don't expect a G5 iMac anytime soon as well.

[aussiemac86]

He says
" but what we are announcing today is a very significant upgrade in performance and its something that are customers will be very happy with. "

Im not that happy.
Firstly the proc speed i am happy with ( not their fault and it is a decent speed anyway) and the upgraded bus is nice.After almost a year though i would have expected better gfx cards, and maybe even a slightly new case, something....anything, and with him saying no 3GHz soon that means no more upgrades until when? January at the eariliest, next June?....

I just hope we get something special with new displays soon.

[CyberB0b]

Today, the glass is definitely half empty.

[xy14]

Boger also states that users should not expect G5 PowerBooks this year.

He never said no iMac G5. I bet it will be released at WWDC with Mac OS 10.4 installed on it. I am going to put that on my site. (apple.gq.nu)

[five04]

notice how they released these pitiful g5's (minus the 2.5) before wwdc so they wouldn't get such bad publicity for it. then again, maybe this guy is just blowing smoke up our asses. i can't see a reason to release a g5 imac at developer's conference though.

[iGav]

Hopefully this will stop the "Apple will release 3GHz machines next week" speculation

arn

5 quid says it doesn't... :eek: :p :p

[mactastic]

BOOOOOO! What good is a reality distortion field if you can't actually distort reality with it? :D

Ah well, the 3.0 Ghz machines will come soon enough, even if SJ is made out to be a liar. As for G5 PBs, not too many of us were actually expecting those before January '05 anyways.

[Grimace]

Hopefully this will stop the "Apple will release 3GHz machines next week" speculation

arn

I love MacRumors - but I agree with ARN completely. Any thread, on any topic, always has some bozo putting in a line about G5 Powerbooks. ;)

[Over Achiever]

He never said no iMac G5. I bet it will be released at WWDC with Mac OS 10.4 installed on it. I am going to put that on my site. (apple.gq.nu)

True true, but read this statement.
While Boger didn't give a timeframe for an iMac G5, he did say the company faced similar challenges getting a G5 to work with their consumer desktop.

"It's the same story -- the challenges are obvious when you look at the G5 and the size of the heatsinks and the enclosure; that would be a heck of a challenge as well."
Perhaps they solved those issues ... but I wouldn't be too surprised if they didn't.

[jxyama]

sorry to be a little OT, but what's with the constant speculation on displays? the LCD technology hasn't progressed much since the last cinema display updates. all we can hope for is bigger ones at lower prices. they will probably have different enclosures but i find that hardly worth waiting over...

unless you are waiting for a 30" LCD (which will cost nearly $4k, i imagine), you are basically waiting for the current cinema displays but encased in aluminum... i guess if that's what you want, that's what you want. but i don't understand the hype surrounding new displays.

[itsa]

Today, the glass is definitely half empty.

Not if we are shooting for 3GHz? The sad thing is... what's next? When everyone else is shooting for 4 and up apple is scrathing their heads.

[seraphnyc]

DAMN!

Oh well, so much for the "yes they are. No they aren't" arguments.
It is time to buy a new Mac. (A vast majorit of the hotsh*t games coming out are recommending [<---keyword 'not the required CPU' ]a 1Ghz or higher processor for optimal game play.)

I wonder how much I would have to prostitute myself for to get 3 grand for a 2.5 G5?

[azdude]

Boger also states that users should not expect G5 PowerBooks this year.

Excellent. So I can feel confident/safe about buying a g4 pb in the next 2 weeks. :D

[autrefois]

Steve should really not make claims he isn't sure can be made. 100 million downloads on iTunes; 3 GHz G5s in a year...heck, they didn't even release iTunes 4.6 when he said they would (they can't even get "today" right?!). :rolleyes:

Still, I'm excited about the liquid cooling technology on the new G5s and will have to read up on that. I'm just saying that you shouldn't promise people the Moon when your rocket ain't even close to being built yet.

[jxyama]

He never said no iMac G5. I bet it will be released at WWDC with Mac OS 10.4 installed on it. I am going to put that on my site. (apple.gq.nu)

WWDC is PREVIEWING 10.4. nothing will ship with 10.4 for quite some time. geez.

WWDC is for developers - apple needs to let developers know about 10.4 ahead of its release so they can work on software to be run on 10.4. what good is it for apple to release 10.4 when there are no apps?

[King Cobra]

Hopefully this will stop the "Apple will release 3GHz machines next week" speculation
Doubtful. Just as when Steve Jobs first said that an Apple PDA wasn't going to happen back in 2003, we still got plenty of rumors coming in (especially over the past three months). Point being: People choose want they to happen, usually based on strong desires, then "report" that. Again, people want keywords like "G5" and "3GHz" and "WWDC" and "will happen anyways." So far, it's not WWDC, and that means people have time to "report" what they want until "all bets are off."

[macridah]

I wonder what steve is going to have to say at the WWDC to explain why he couldn't deliver what he promised. I know it's "technical challenges", but steve always has something more witty to say. Well i'll be there.

Steve said this "will be worth it". There must be some super amazing announcement other than Tiger.

[Sun Baked]

Hopefully this will stop the "Apple will release 3GHz machines next week" speculation

arnProbably will stop the speculation.

Likely to increase the Apple lied rants -- which is pointless since Apple isn't responsible for the technical challenges related to the 90nm shrink.

Intel also ran into some problems at 90nm (related to power dissipation problems), we all hoped IBM's method would work their way around a bunch of the problems Intel was having -- maybe not, we'll see.

Problems aren't new and it usually takes some time to engineer your way around them, hopefully not as long as it took Motorola to go from 350MHz to 450MHz. :(

[Over Achiever]

sorry to be a little OT, but what's with the constant speculation on displays? the LCD technology hasn't progressed much since the last cinema display updates. all we can hope for is bigger ones at lower prices. they will probably have different enclosures but i find that hardly worth waiting over....
Sorry, but it's just me personally, I need to get a new LCD in the next few months, so having the enclosures would be a plus for me. Not the biggest fan of the the plastic ... or of the price. The other reason I hope they upgrade ... LCD components has dropped in price in the recent months.

Anyway that's my perspective. ^_^

[jxyama]

Steve should really not make claims he isn't sure can be made. 100 million downloads on iTunes; 3 GHz G5s in a year...heck, they didn't even release iTunes 4.6 when he said they would (they can't even get "today" right?!). :rolleyes:

those were goals. :rolleyes:

at the time the statements were made, perhaps under optimistic views, he thought those statements would come true.

i think it says more about some of us who take his words too literally and cling to them as if they are some sort of infallible promises. :rolleyes:

[technocoy]

steve did say that IBM promises us they will be at 3 Gigahertz within a year. so in reality this is IBM dropping the ball, but also in reality, thing happen in the tech world, this is new stuff, and fast stuff, and hot stuff, with a new process for manufacture. you will get your three gigahertz machines, just a little later. if you can't buy a 2.5 and be happy, then there is a problem, because you aren't going to buy any 3,000 dollar computer this faster anywhere else and have a noticeable difference. I run some pretty damn heavy stuff on my dual 2.0, and with the exception of SOME video effects editing, this things smokes at it all. 2.5 is a 1ghz jump if the software you are using is DP optimized. come on people give them a break. we could be still running G4s overclocked to 1.75 right now. They can't do it all at once! they are making some pretty big shifts in their strategies and product markets right now, and it may take some time to get everything going smooth. they ARE tit for tat with other 64 bit processors right now, so settle down, all will be well.

[awesomebase]

Wow, I saw the PMs on Apple's site... I can't say I'm too impressed... doesn't seem to be much of anything new except for-one new model. That doesn't bode well for Apple doing this... I'm sure they announced it on their web-site to avoid embarassment at the conference. It shouldn't take 1 year to get 1 new model for their top of the line machines...
All I can say is that it stinks! Once again, Apple is going to find itself getting to the 3GHz mark when Intel, AMD, and others are surpassing 4GHz or higher. I'm not saying the speed is bad, but Apple has been in this business for 20+ years now. You would think that they know what to say and what not to say. It would have been nice if they had decent prices on the models too. They are starting pretty high...

[Stella]

Still no G5 PB soon..
:-(

What do I do.. buy G4 PB or hang on to G3 iBook until G5 PB.. getting a G4 iBook seems not much of an upgrade, since its still the same machine.

[jxyama]

Sorry, but it's just me personally, I need to get a new LCD in the next few months, so having the enclosures would be a plus for me. Not the biggest fan of the the plastic ... or of the price. The other reason I hope they upgrade ... LCD components has dropped in price in the recent months.

Anyway that's my perspective. ^_^

i understand. but many of us seem to think there'll be some sort of new radical displays waiting to be released... i think the displays will be just the same with different enclosures. LCD technologies haven't advanced much. pixels sizes hasn't gotten any smaller, for example.

[Laslo Panaflex]

Has anyone ordered a dual 2.5 yet, what is the shipping time?

Methinks that if the shipping time is within the next 2-3 weeks, this is how it will play out.

1. Steve will announce a dual 3gig at WWDC. it will start shipping in August
2. It will push everything down the line making daul 2 1999 and dual 2.5 2499 and dual 3 2999
3. People that have ordered a dual 2.5 can keep thier order and have it ship right away, or upgrade to dual 3 and wait untill the end of august to get their dual 3.


Of course this scenario will only be valid if the shipping times on the 2.5 are actually 2-3 weeks, so anyone bought one yet?

/sarcasm

[crees!]

Excellent. So I can feel confident/safe about buying a g4 pb in the next 2 weeks. :D

Yea, don't wait around like other people will. Have one in your hands now instead of 8 months or a year later you know. You won't be disappointed.

[crees!]

Has anyone ordered a dual 2.5 yet, what is the shipping time?

"July" is when the 2.5 Ghz is shipping.

[autrefois]

those were goals. :rolleyes:

at the time the statements were made, perhaps under optimistic views, he thought those statements would come true.

i think it says more about some of us who take his words too literally and cling to them as if they are some sort of infallible promises. :rolleyes:

I see your point, but there's a difference between me saying my "goal" is to visit every ballpark by next year and me missing that goal, and Steve Jobs, head of a Apple, saying his "goal" is to reach 3.0 GHz by next year and Apple falling very short of that goal.

His words ought to mean more and be weighed much more carefully, considering his position. And it's not just one missed goal he's had recently, either...

[jxyama]

Has anyone ordered a dual 2.5 yet, what is the shipping time?

Methinks that if the shipping time is within the next 2-3 weeks, this is how it will play out.

1. Steve will announce a dual 3gig at WWDC. it will start shipping in August
2. It will push everything down the line making daul 2 1999 and dual 2.5 2499 and dual 3 2999
3. People that have ordered a dual 2.5 can keep thier order and have it ship right away, or upgrade to dual 3 and wait untill the end of august to get their dual 3.

Of course this scenario will only be valid if the shipping times on the 2.5 are actually 2-3 weeks, so anyone bought one yet?

did you read anything on this thread, including the original post??

autrefois - steve missing a few "predictions" isn't that big of a deal. CEOs are like politicians - their job practically is to walk the fine line between hype and lies.

[Sun Baked]

I see your point, but there's a difference between me saying my "goal" is to visit every ballpark by next year and me missing that goal, and Steve Jobs, head of a Apple, saying his "goal" is to reach 3.0 GHz by next year and Apple falling very short of that "goal".

His words ought to mean more and be weighed much more carefully, considering his position. And it's not just one missed goal he's had recently, either.Failing to meet a "goal" isn't as bad as Apple failing to deliver product that they've already announced. :o

[IBSNOWEDIN]

NICE!! it is Water cooled and also their is a better graphics card u have the option of a 9800 XT 256mb.. also the FSB at 1250mhz is crazy... must be very quiet.. aswell so i think this is a step up and it is 90nm ship aswell!!

Good job Apple!

[macnews]

The "no 3Ghz anytime soon" comment is not too encouraging. Given Apple's recent problem with telling time (similar to what women say about men knowing distance), it could be a year or more before 3Ghz. That is not encouraging at all.

Steve does need to be careful about his comments (100 mil downloads, 3 gigs, etc). It is one thing to make those comments and back them up. People will respect and follow you to the end of the earth if you are that kind of a leader. Making promises or even just claims and not being able to follow through (regardless of your fault/control or not) will start to make people doubt your ability to lead or be trust worthy.

Last year Steve could have said they have hope to be at 3 gigs in a just over a year, vs one year and still been ok with today's updates. People would bitch but then in 6 months if he released 3 gigs you wouldn't hear (what is most likely to happen) "great, here is the 3 gigs, 6months late. Where is my 3.5 gig machine?"

[nagromme]

He never said no iMac G5. I bet it will be released at WWDC with Mac OS 10.4 installed on it. I am going to put that on my site.

iMac G5 soon sounds highly unlikely due to heatsink size--that was just stated by Apple pretty clearly (with SMALL room to hope still). 10.4 is impossible shipping at WWDC. It's a first preview for developers. That comes MONTHS before the real product.

I wonder what steve is going to have to say at the WWDC to explain why he couldn't deliver what he promised. I know it's "technical challenges", but steve always has something more witty to say. Well i'll be there.

Steve said this "will be worth it". There must be some super amazing announcement other than Tiger.

Steve's email said the Tiger preview will be worth it. Specifically. So there could be no new hardware at WWDC. It's for developers after all. Tiger is the biggest news for that audience. Hardware's possible, but not a certainty.

Apple seems to be releasing hardware "when ready" now anyway. Like Airport Express two days before PowerMacs.

EDIT: Tiger's the biggest news for me too.... I already have my Mac :)_

[itsa]

iMac G5 soon sounds highly unlikely due to heatsink size--that was just stated by Apple pretty clearly (with SMALL room to hope still). 10.4 is impossible shipping at WWDC. It's a first preview for developers. That comes MONTHS before the real product.



Steve's email said the Tiger preview will be worth it. Specifically. So there could be no new hardware at WWDC. It's for developers after all. Tiger is the biggest news for that audience. Hardware's possible, but not a certainty.

Apple seems to be releasing hardware "when ready" now anyway. Like Airport Express two days before PowerMacs.

Before a G5 powerbook? Just does not seem right.

[broken_keyboard]

Cool I am so glad the Apple have updated the G5 to 2.5GHz.

I can't wait to get home and turn on my G5 and see if the extra 500MHz makes any difference.

w00t!

[windowsblowsass]

Not if we are shooting for 3GHz? The sad thing is... what's next? When everyone else is shooting for 4 and up apple is scrathing their heads.
actually no one is shooting for 4 intel it a road block with heat amd is at 2.4 and freescale is well ah they have 1.5

what we have here is a crapshoot for dual cores

[JGowan]

Ah well, the 3.0 Ghz machines will come soon enough, even if SJ is made out to be a liar.I think the word "liar" is pretty strong. A Liar is someone who says something false and KNOWS it. What Steve gave was a projection of future events that simply are getting pushed back due to technical problems. Problems, I might add, that are nothing he can do anything about. IBM is the only one who can make this happen.

Also, anyone thinking that the "HIGH END" model would jump from Dual 2GHz to Dual 3GHz is crazy. Without the G5 Chip problem, we most likely would've seen this new line up 6 months ago and then had something like "Dual 2.2, Dual 2.6 and Dual 3.0GHz" announced at WWDC.

Dual 2GHz to Dual 3GHz... that was a pipe dream. A ganja pipe dream.

[jkhanson]

sorry to be a little OT, but what's with the constant speculation on displays? the LCD technology hasn't progressed much since the last cinema display updates. all we can hope for is bigger ones at lower prices. they will probably have different enclosures but i find that hardly worth waiting over...

unless you are waiting for a 30" LCD (which will cost nearly $4k, i imagine), you are basically waiting for the current cinema displays but encased in aluminum... i guess if that's what you want, that's what you want. but i don't understand the hype surrounding new displays.

The displays have not been updated in a very long time. I'll bet the specs, in fact, will change quite a bit on the new ones. From what I understand, Samsung makes the Apple displays [Edit: winblowsass says that LG makes them -- that may indeed be the case, but the point remains the same since the current line of LG monitors also has higher specs than the Apple branded ones]. Examples from the current Samsung line:

SyncMaster 213T has 21.3 inch screen, brightness of 250 cd/m2, contrast ratio of 500:1.

SyncMaster 173P has 17 inch screen, brightness of 270 cd/m2, contrast ratio of 700:1.

Meanwhile, the Apple branded 20 inch display has brightness of 230 cd/m2 and contrast ratio of 350:1. The 17 inch display (the oldest) has brightness of 200 cd/m2 and contrast ratio of 350:1. Viewing angles are the same or slightly worse than the SyncMaster models.

I admit that I don't know how much a difference these things make, but it does seem like the new displays will not just be the same specs in a new case. We'll find out soon enough.

[pjkelnhofer]

Hopefully this will stop the "Apple will release 3GHz machines next week" speculation

arn

Only if you repost the quote every week. People around here tend to have short memories.

I think the Dual 2.5GHz is impressive, the Dual FSB on the whole lineup is pretty sweet as well. Do these machines blow the doors of everything Intel/AMD makes? No, but they are just as fast as similarly priced PC's.

I give Apple credit for stepping up and saying, we made the promise but we could not deliver.

He said no G5 PB's, but he said nothing about iMacs :)

[sinisterdesign]

Hopefully this will stop the "Apple will release 3GHz machines next week" speculation

arn

thank you.

i don't think anyone is THRILLED w/ this update, but at least that should end some of the ranting/speculating for the next couple months. if you're in the market for a fast desktop, the 2x2.5 should be the TOL for a little while. if you need a new fast laptop, looks like it may be a while. get comfortable...

[itsa]

actually no one is shooting for 4 intel it a road block with heat amd is at 2.4 and freescale is well ah they have 1.5

what we have here is a crapshoot for dual cores

I was just thinking... if 3Ghz is not going to happen with these G5's...at least not for a year or more.. What kind of future is there with IBM?

[kettle]

Hopefully this will stop the "Apple will release 3GHz machines next week" speculation

arn
Really, why should we be concerned if it doesn't, surely it's the "All the fun of the fair" that is macrumors. It's the excitement of the Apple brand and why we love this site.

Actually, there maybe logic to say no 3GHz next week, but I haven't ruled out liquid cooled G5 in the Powerbook. :) ...maybe a slower one like the 1.6.

[itsa]

About the only real noticeable difference aside from the liquid cooling on the 2.5DP and the PCI-X stuff is the 8X DVD burners (which are available for $180 online anyway) instead of the 4X DVD burners.
I don't think this news would be so bad if it were the iMac line getting a little bump... but it just throttles me that Apple would do so little to their top of the line models in just 1 year. It just seems to me that they could have done a lot more (i.e. get better video cards as standard, provide more than one optical drive bay, make the case smaller, and for Pete's sake lets get more than 256MB of RAM in there!) I can't believe that they would only put 256MB of RAM on their entry model... even the cheap HP machines in Best Buy and Circuit City type places don't start less than 512MB and they cost about a quarter of what these do! Apple... what happened????

I thought the very same thing. Along with a bit of a price drop.

[themacman]

1. Steve will announce a dual 3gig at WWDC. it will start shipping in August
2. It will push everything down the line making daul 2 1999 and dual 2.5 2499 and dual 3 2999
3. People that have ordered a dual 2.5 can keep thier order and have it ship right away, or upgrade to dual 3 and wait untill the end of august to get their dual 3.

This is very likely. I looked how long it will take to get a dual 2.5 shipped it says it will ship in mid july this means that 3ghz could still be very possible. I think jobs will talk about the 3ghz and on the 3ghz there will be some kind of new technology. The Dual 3 Ghz will probably ship with tiger on it in september, October

[windowsblowsass]

The displays have not been updated in a very long time. I'll bet the specs, in fact, will change quite a bit on the new ones. From what I understand, Samsung makes the Apple displays. Examples from their current line:

SyncMaster 213T has 21.3 inch screen, brightness of 250 cd/m2, contrast ratio of 500:1.

SyncMaster 173P has 17 inch screen, brightness of 270 cd/m2, contrast ratio of 700:1.

Meanwhile, the Apple branded 20 inch display has brightness of 230 cd/m2 and contrast ratio of 350:1. The 17 inch display (the oldest) has brightness of 200 cd/m2 and contrast ratio of 350:1. Viewing angles are the same or slightly worse than the SyncMaster models.

I admit that I don't know how much a difference these things make, but it does seem like the new displays will not just be the same specs in a new case.
actually i think the apple displays are mace by lg

[JGowan]

...unless you are waiting for a 30" LCD (which will cost nearly $4k, i imagine), you are basically waiting for the current cinema displays but encased in aluminum... i guess if that's what you want, that's what you want. but i don't understand the hype surrounding new displays.At work, I was running a Beige G3 until early this year. The boss would spring for a Dual 2Ghz G5 but would only buy me a 21" CRT. He's a PC person and spending the money for the computer was hard to justify. But buying a $2000 23" Display was out of the question.

Perhaps there are people who have a new G5 machine and a CRT but want to wait for a 23" with a new enclosure to match their Aluminum G5. Why drop $2000 on something that will soon be obsolete and not really match your new computer. Two grand is a lot of money. I think waiting is smart in this instance.

[Bhennies]

Ok did they revamp the case design at all? Is there more HD space? Did they fix the fan problems, power supply chirping? This is all I care about. Did they revamp the 2.0 and 1.8 as well...same mhz, different chip? Or is that the old stock? Thanks

[pjkelnhofer]

I can't believe that they would only put 256MB of RAM on their entry model... even the cheap HP machines in Best Buy and Circuit City type places don't start less than 512MB and they cost about a quarter of what these do! Apple... what happened????

A quick check of Best Buy, Circuit City and HP shows that 256MB is exactly at what their machines start (Dells start at 128MB of shared memory!). Now, these machines are not really comparable to the G5's (and 25-50% of the price), but you do not have your facts correct.

Apple puts less RAM in the system so they can charge you to upgrade it. They are trying to make money you know. Damn businesses ;)

[Sun Baked]

I was just thinking... if 3Ghz is not going to happen with these G5's...at least not for a year or more.. What kind of future is there with IBM?The next generation chip, the Power5-UL, will add SMT -- which gives us chips capable of running two threads at the same time, and seen as two CPUs by the OS (one real, one virtual) -- and give us somewhere around a 35-45% speed boost.

There were also some comments about IBM working on bus improvements. And the possibility of seeing the FSB operate at the CPU's frequency would be a more exciting development than a 500MHz boost to the CPU's frequency.

People need to get away from the MHz marketing myth... there are other areas of the computer system that have been neglected in the quest for simple MHz.

[klaus]

Can someone confirm that the new 2.0 and 1.8 models are also using the 90 nm processors?

Thx

[jxyama]

The displays have not been updated in a very long time. I'll bet the specs, in fact, will change quite a bit on the new ones. From what I understand, Samsung makes the Apple displays. Examples from their current line:

SyncMaster 213T has 21.3 inch screen, brightness of 250 cd/m2, contrast ratio of 500:1.

SyncMaster 173P has 17 inch screen, brightness of 270 cd/m2, contrast ratio of 700:1.

Meanwhile, the Apple branded 20 inch display has brightness of 230 cd/m2 and contrast ratio of 350:1. The 17 inch display (the oldest) has brightness of 200 cd/m2 and contrast ratio of 350:1. Viewing angles are the same or slightly worse than the SyncMaster models.

I admit that I don't know how much a difference these things make, but it does seem like the new displays will not just be the same specs in a new case.

thanks for the info. i didn't mean to imply that the displays will be exactly the same. i just don't think they will be that significant of a change. contrast ratios and brightness will make differences, no doubt. but usually, "dramatic" improvements in displays are associated with the size and the pixel numbers. while i can see a 30" display (still, it will be very, very expensive and apple may wait until the price comes down so there'll be reasonable demand... if 30" costs twice as much 20", say, wouldn't one opt for 20" dual screens?), i don't see the pixel sizes being reduced. so i don't think the "improvements" made to the displays will be that "significant" - that was my point.

so if one is holding out for displays to come out to be drastically different from the current ones from the pixel format/size standpoint, i was thinking they will be dissappointed...

[windowsblowsass]

Ok did they revamp the case design at all? Is there more HD space? Did they fix the fan problems, power supply chirping? This is all I care about. Did they revamp the 2.0 and 1.8 as well...same mhz, different chip? Or is that the old stock? Thanks
yeah the new macs are liwuid cooled :eek: http://www.apple.com/powermac/design.html

this seems strange because the 90nm are cooler than before maybe their preparing for the future

[bousozoku]

The liquid cooling has to be a joke because that's just too funny. The last time I remember any machines being liquid cooled, it was the 1980s and IBM's 3084 mainframe was the size of a room with the liquid cooling.

I guess the PPC970 needs some help, even at 90nm. That's pretty scary.

[musichris777]

Jobs said at last years WWDC that, "a year from now we will be at 3 GHZ...."

Well is he going to release something this fall as 3GHZ or is this it? If this is it and we don't see a 3GHZ this fall, IBM is not living up to it's end of the bargain.

Remember that The G5 didn't come out untill the fall last year, so we could see 3GHZ after all.

[Bhennies]

MAN AM I HAPPY I BOUGHT MY POWERBOOK NOW!!!

They didn't even include Bluetooth and airport extreme. WTF? Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!

[blue&whiteman]

it should be obvious that there will be no new powerbook soon. not a G4 or G5 since they were just updated.

[itsa]

This is really odd. I have been waiting for months, (with money in hand) for this new line and I still have not ordered one. I'm thinking I will wait until after WWDC before I do anything. Maybe something cool will happen.

[blakespot]

Hopefully this will stop the "Apple will release 3GHz machines next week" speculation

arn


Indeed, let us hope this. They were troubling.



blakespot

[windowsblowsass]

The liquid cooling has to be a joke because that's just too funny. The last time I remember any machines being liquid cooled, it was the 1980s and IBM's 3084 mainframe was the size of a room with the liquid cooling.

I guess the PPC970 needs some help, even at 90nm. That's pretty scary.
many highend pcs use liquid cooling

[jxyama]

yeah the new macs are liwuid cooled :eek: http://www.apple.com/powermac/design.html

this seems strange because the 90nm are cooler than before maybe their preparing for the future

where did you read that 90 nm is cooler?

smaller the feature size, more power that is needed to combat dark voltages and cross talks... no?

[pjkelnhofer]

Ok did they revamp the case design at all? Is there more HD space? Did they fix the fan problems, power supply chirping? This is all I care about. Did they revamp the 2.0 and 1.8 as well...same mhz, different chip? Or is that the old stock? Thanks

I believe that the fan and power supply problems have already been fixed. As for you other questions, did you read any of the threads or just post?

[awesomebase]

A quick check of Best Buy, Circuit City and HP shows that 256MB is exactly at what their machines start (Dells start at 128MB of shared memory!). Now, these machines are not really comparable to the G5's (and 25-50% of the price), but you do not have your facts correct.

Apple puts less RAM in the system so they can charge you to upgrade it. They are trying to make money you know. Damn businesses ;)

Yeah, I know that they want you to upgrade and they want to make money, but, I think you're missing the point... every business wants you to upgrade, but Apple has a DUAL PROCESSOR machine... that means right off the bat it is a higher-end piece of hardware. They should be going to 1GB right off the line. The fact that they won't even start theirs at 512MB is absurd... especially in light of the fact that they didn't meet their 3GHz promise. It is almost like they made this release half-heartedly... like they didn't care. Well, it doesn't do them any good to make their top of the line machines look weak. After all, IBM probably doesn't make those memory chips. Apple could have just as easily added more memory to their machines and at least tried to bolster that part of the PM beyond what was offered a year ago. My 3-year old TiPB at 550MHz has 512MB... and it wasn't that special when I made the upgrade (I sold the 256MB 133MHz module and got 2 256MB 100MHz modules for $30 less). Do you think that would be so horrible? I think Apple is more than capable of doing AT LEAST that kind of an upgrade...

[jiggie2g]

Apple just loves to piss me off this is why I am just going to Build a PC , **** Apple , atleast they could have put out something better in the lower models. a single/dual 2ghz and Dual 2.2 low and mid end would have been great. and come on $3000 for a comp and all we get is a 2nd rate soon to be outdated and replaced Radeon 9600XT that should be minimum . a 9800XT should be standard on a 3K machine , i'd love to see Dell , HP or AlienWare try to pull this Bull **** off. ALL APPLE HAS DONE IS UPDATE 1 MACHINE AND NOW IS TRYING 2 SELL US IT'S OVER STOCKED CRAP AT A DISCOUNT.

While i like the Liquid cooling alot i'm disappointed to see it's only on the High end. NOTE TO APPLE: AMD NOW HAS AN ATHLON 64 +3800. They will have a +4000 by Oct/Nov or sooner.

Also Why did they ever bother to put in a PCI-X Slot in. this is a complete waste as PCI-X will be used Exclusively for the Server Market, The PC Industry has already Picked the Better and faster PCI Express as the new Standard to replace PCI making PCI-X a total waste unless ur running an X-Serve. Doesn't Apple Realize i can Biuld me a Spanking new +3800/FX-53 system for under 2K , and don't let me jump on those Phoney Benchmarks where the new G5 2.5 beats the AMD 64 FX-53 by 93% .....LMAO yea right.

[Bhennies]

I believe that the fan and power supply problems have already been fixed. As for you other questions, did you read any of the threads or just post?First if all- take down the tone. Yes I read the other posts. There are other people asking as well whether or not the low end models were updated as well. The only BIG update was the 2.5- yes I can see that much was revised on that- but the 1.8 and 2.0??? And no...the problems have not been fixed. I know people who have the rev. E powersupply and it still chirps.

[Gus]

We all know that Steve and the engineers at Apple have to have a couple of functioning 3Ghz G5 processors at Cupertino for testing, etc. So...


At WWDC, Steve will be doing his presentations on the only Dual-3Ghz PowerMac G5 in existence. He gets to show off whats in store for everyone, meets his deadline, and therefore keeps his promise. I think this is how it will happen. Steve doesn't like to apologize or make excuses-he wasn't thrilled when the Pepsi promotion only netted a couple of million songs for iTunes, and the iTMS missed its mark.

Anyway, I think the only reason this announcement bothered me at all was the lack of excitement in the interviews with Boger. He really gave us nothing to look forward to at all (no G5iMac soon, no G5 PB soon, etc.). We all know they've been having cooling problems, but this just seemed real deflating.

Anyway, my 2¢

Regards,
Gus

[jxyama]

I think you're missing the point... every business wants you to upgrade, but Apple has a DUAL PROCESSOR machine... that means right off the bat it is a higher-end piece of hardware. They should be going to 1GB right off the line. The fact that they won't even start theirs at 512MB is absurd...

i agree, these duals should ship with at least 512 MB. (i guess that would be 2 x 256 MB since they need to come in pairs, right?) that adds $100, at most, to the cost of each PM. for a computer with dual processors costing $2000+, it's unacceptable to short change the user on such a petty level on the default configuration that it's hardly usable out of the box.

[klaus]

We all know that Steve and the engineers at Apple have to have a couple of functioning 3Ghz G5 processors at Cupertino for testing, etc. So...


At WWDC, Steve will be doing his presentations on the only Dual-3Ghz PowerMac G5 in existence. He gets to show off whats in store for everyone, meets his deadline, and therefore keeps his promise. I think this is how it will happen. Steve doesn't like to apologize or make excuses-he wasn't thrilled when the Pepsi promotion only netted a couple of million songs for iTunes, and the iTMS missed its mark.

Anyway, I think the only reason this announcement bothered me at all was the lack of excitement in the interviews with Boger. He really gave us nothing to look forward to at all (no G5iMac soon, no G5 PB soon, etc.). We all know they've been having cooling problems, but this just seemed real deflating.

Anyway, my 2¢

Regards,
Gus


Djeezes, do any of you guys read other threads in this forum, or other news-sites? Boger, chief of powermac line for apple, said himself, 3 ghz will not be anytime soon!, sure it can be within 4-5 months, but that's not soon, WWDC is soon, there will not be 3ghz at wwdc, just stop already, it's very annoying, and I think a lot of people share the same feelings on this subject

[BakedBeans]

why are people calling this an upgrade???

they have lowered the spec of 2 of the existing pms and brought in a new one

why lower the specs for the dual 1.8
and why give the dual 2.0 a really crap graphics card

HOW COULD WE BE HAPPY WITH THAT?????

[BornAgainMac]

We got longhorned!

[jxyama]

At WWDC, Steve will be doing his presentations on the only Dual-3Ghz PowerMac G5 in existence. He gets to show off whats in store for everyone, meets his deadline, and therefore keeps his promise. I think this is how it will happen.

no way. he won't show off a machine that can't be shipped in the near future simply because it will drop the sales of existing machines. who'll buy the current PMs if people know 3 GHz can be done but not on a massive scale? people waited a year for the rev. B PM until now. i don't see why they won't wait for another year.

i doubt he will even bother mentioning about the "promise" of 3 GHz. he'll just say it was harder than expected, but 2.5 GHz is pretty good. that's all he will say.

[awesomebase]

i agree, these duals should ship with at least 512 MB. (i guess that would be 2 x 256 MB since they need to come in pairs, right?) that adds $100, at most, to the cost of each PM. for a computer with dual processors costing $2000+, it's unacceptable to short change the user on such a petty level on the default configuration that it's hardly usable out of the box.

I'm just taking a wild guess at this, though I used build custom systems myself, but, I would guess that the extra 256MB might cost Apple an extra $25 to $30 at the most. Still, if they have bottom-line margins to meet, that could easily over-ride any other concerns.

[DonkeyKong]

so if we're not going to see any new updates for PowerMac, iMacs or PB's in WWDC, what do you guys think is going to be the "big surprise"? :confused:

[jxyama]

I'm just taking a wild guess at this, though I used build custom systems myself, but, I would guess that the extra 256MB might cost Apple an extra $25 to $30 at the most. Still, if they have bottom-line margins to meet, that could easily over-ride any other concerns.

well, the thing is, apple will need to put in two 256 MBs to replace the current two 128 MBs. so that's why i guessed on the high end and said $100. OEM parts in volume like this should bring the price down even further, probably to the leve you suggested.

decent amount of RAM is now almost a necessary part of a computer. for them to short change on RAM is like not including a mouse. it hardly makes a difference in terms of costs but leaves a really bad impression on the users that their machines are barely usable out of the box.

if they had to include 512 MB and increase the price by $50, so be it. i find it rather absurd that they even offer 256 MB as a default to begin with.

[abhishekit]

so that leaves us with what? what will be the surprise package of the conference? just new displays cant be it..or atleast it wd be a boring one, if they are...and yeah , its a developers conference..but still there wd definitely be something.,oh , i am confused

[awesomebase]

so if we're not going to see any new updates for PowerMac, iMacs or PB's in WWDC, what do you guys think is going to be the "big surprise"? :confused:

Maybe the big surprise will be 64-bit OS natively! Or it could be that the big surprise is that there is no big surprise! :p

[King Cobra]

Well is he going to release something this fall as 3GHZ or is this it? If this is it and we don't see a 3GHZ this fall, IBM is not living up to it's end of the bargain.
What I'm thinking is Steve might make a quick announcement at WWDC like: "A 3GHz PowerMac G5 is in the works and will be shipping towards the end of the summer," just to cover his back. But, even then, I don't see that happening.


We got longhorned!
lol well, almost. The new PowerMacs only require 1GB or 2 for the operating system.

[Papercut]

Seems like the new PM line is targeted solely to the serious pro. I guess whatever comes out at the WWDC is gonna be for the rest of us.

[jxyama]

so that leaves us with what? what will be the surprise package of the conference? just new displays cant be it..or atleast it wd be a boring one, if they are...and yeah , its a developers conference..but still there wd definitely be something.,oh , i am confused

i think WWDC will resort back to the way it's usually been: "boring" conference for developers. last year was an exception because G5 really was a major, major change in the architecture of Mac computing and really was of interest to developers. iMac upgrade isn't really that important to developers. neither is iPod stuff.

product announcement isn't the point of WWDC. tiger will be the big announcement and that'll probably be it.

[BakedBeans]

so if we're not going to see any new updates for PowerMac, iMacs or PB's in WWDC, what do you guys think is going to be the "big surprise"? :confused:


i think the surprise will be that they dont release anything and that they will keep on charging to much money and ripping of there loyal customers (sorry just how i feel today)

speed bumped imac, new displays, 13.3inch powerbook??
donnu but its looking pretty lame at the moment the 2.5 is fine but everything else is not good enough in my opinion

[Stewie]

where did you read that 90 nm is cooler?

smaller the feature size, more power that is needed to combat dark voltages and cross talks... no?

I thought I had read (to lazy to track it down) that one of the reasons for the delay in faster processors from IBM was a heat issue?

/But that is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[awesomebase]

if they had to include 512 MB and increase the price by $50, so be it. i find it rather absurd that they even offer 256 MB as a default to begin with.

Exactly!! Now if we can just get those Wi-Fi iPods, our attention will be diverted away from the PMs!!

[alexf]

Wow! I'm surprised that the dual 1.8 GHz and 2.0 GHz machines are actually DOWNGRADES from the previous models!

The dual 1.8 GHz model no longer has PCI-X, only has half of the previous hard drive size (80 GB), is now only expandible to 4 GB RAM, and ships with only 256 MB of memory instead of 512 MB.

And the graphics card of the dual 2.0 GHz machine has been downgraded to the NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra!

Sure, the prices have been reduced and they now all have 8x superdrives (about which I could really care less), but this "downgrade" is incredible... How can this be?
:confused:

[NusuniAdmin]

Are you guys going to finally stop speculating when the g5 pb will be released?

[jocknerd]

so if we're not going to see any new updates for PowerMac, iMacs or PB's in WWDC, what do you guys think is going to be the "big surprise"? :confused:

Steve is announcing that he is leaving Apple to go run Disney. Just my guess. Apple's stock drops to $5 per share as a result.

[BakedBeans]

Apple just loves to piss me off this is why I am just going to Build a PC , Fu*k Apple , atleast they could have put out something better in the lower models. a single/dual 2ghz and Dual 2.2 low and mid end would have been great. and come on $3000 for a comp and all we get is a 2nd rate soon to be outdated and replaced Radeon 9600XT that should be minimum . a 9800XT should be standard on a 3K machine , i'd love to see Dell , HP or AlienWare try to pull this Bull ***** off. ALL APPLE HAS DONE IS UPDATE 1 MACHINE AND NOW IS TRYING 2 SELL US IT'S OVER STOCKED CRAP AT A DISCOUNT.

While i like the Liquid cooling alot i'm disappointed to see it's only on the High end. NOTE TO APPLE: AMD NOW HAS AN ATHLON 64 +3800. They will have a +4000 by Oct/Nov or sooner.

Also Why did they ever bother to put in a PCI-X Slot in. this is a complete waste as PCI-X will be used Exclusively for the Server Market, The PC Industry has already Picked the Better and faster PCI Express as the new Standard to replace PCI making PCI-X a total waste unless ur running an X-Serve. Doesn't Apple Realize i can Biuld me a Spanking new +3800/FX-53 system for under 2K , and don't let me jump on those Phoney Benchmarks where the new G5 2.5 beats the AMD 64 FX-53 by 93% .....LMAO yea right.


im in agreement with you that this upgrade sucks
apple bank on there very good os selling there over priced hardwar....just my tupence

[windowsblowsass]

Are you guys going to finally stop speculating when the g5 pb will be released?
they already said it wouldnt happen it wont stop them it may slow them down but not by much

[IBSNOWEDIN]

The new PMs are WAY over prices i think apple needs to fire their marketing team and get one from the PC world becasue the prices the way they are Apple will never sell any macs and in 10years down the road apple will be no more unless they do something... but apple thinks their PMs or even their imacs are priced right... for what they offer.. 256mb ram and 1.8ghz..and 80gbs harddriver for 1999US u can get a PC for 1000CAN (around 750US) that is 3.2ghz P4 1GB ram 120gb HD and a ATi 9800 XT... come on apple if u have to take one thing from the PC world take their marketing.

[hayesk]

Wow, some of you guys are a bunch of self-absorbed cry-baby whiners.

It goes like this: Apple makes products, you decide if you want to buy them or not. Apple doesn't owe you anything. But yet I read incessant bitching here like Apple owes you a new display, Apple should have bent the laws of time and physics to make you a Dual 3GHz machine, etc. etc.

You all get your self worked into a frenzy by reading rumours and speculation and now you're upset. Gee, well no wonder. And yet you wonder why Apple doesn't like rumour sites.

Give me a break people. A dual-2.5GHz PowerMac is a damned fine machine. A 3GHz would only be a wee bit faster (maybe 10%). Why is a dual 3GHz so great, and yet a slightly slower, but otherwise identical, machine so crummy?

[Mac|caM]

The "no 3Ghz anytime soon" comment is not too encouraging. Given Apple's recent problem with telling time (similar to what women say about men knowing distance), it could be a year or more before 3Ghz. That is not encouraging at all.

Steve does need to be careful about his comments (100 mil downloads, 3 gigs, etc). It is one thing to make those comments and back them up. People will respect and follow you to the end of the earth if you are that kind of a leader. Making promises or even just claims and not being able to follow through (regardless of your fault/control or not) will start to make people doubt your ability to lead or be trust worthy.

First off, it seems that IBM has gotten their 90nm processes at least under control to make pretty significant clock speed and bus speed increases. That means it should not be nearly as long 'till 3Ghz as it was to 2.5.

Secondly, Steve-O never said that they would have sold 100 million songs, only that they were trying to. Plus, since Steve says himself that he doesn't really understand chip structure or production (at last year's WWDC, he was confused about branch-prediction, etc.), he was simply going on IBM's technical estimates of timeframes, and put it out as a "promise", since he's the CEO and that's his job.

[pjkelnhofer]

Yeah, I know that they want you to upgrade and they want to make money, but, I think you're missing the point... every business wants you to upgrade, but Apple has a DUAL PROCESSOR machine... that means right off the bat it is a higher-end piece of hardware. They should be going to 1GB right off the line. The fact that they won't even start theirs at 512MB is absurd... especially in light of the fact that they didn't meet their 3GHz promise. It is almost like they made this release half-heartedly... like they didn't care. Well, it doesn't do them any good to make their top of the line machines look weak. After all, IBM probably doesn't make those memory chips. Apple could have just as easily added more memory to their machines and at least tried to bolster that part of the PM beyond what was offered a year ago. My 3-year old TiPB at 550MHz has 512MB... and it wasn't that special when I made the upgrade (I sold the 256MB 133MHz module and got 2 256MB 100MHz modules for $30 less). Do you think that would be so horrible? I think Apple is more than capable of doing AT LEAST that kind of an upgrade...

Just how is Apple supposed to add $200 of RAM along with a $200 more expensive video card without raising the overall product price?

[IBSNOWEDIN]

Wow, some of you guys are a bunch of self-absorbed cry-baby whiners.

It goes like this: Apple makes products, you decide if you want to buy them or not. Apple doesn't owe you anything. But yet I read incessant bitching here like Apple owes you a new display, Apple should have bent the laws of time and physics to make you a Dual 3GHz machine, etc. etc.

You all get your self worked into a frenzy by reading rumours and speculation and now you're upset. Gee, well no wonder. And yet you wonder why Apple doesn't like rumour sites.

Give me a break people. A dual-2.5GHz PowerMac is a damned fine machine. A 3GHz would only be a wee bit faster (maybe 10%). Why is a dual 3GHz so great, and yet a slightly slower, but otherwise identical, machine so crummy?

your right but still.. at least lower the prices or add 512 ram all around.. the update is great but what they offer with it is crap

[relimw]

Hopefully this will stop the "Apple will release 3GHz machines next week" speculation

arn

Dang it! I want my dual 3GHz machine with all the beels and whistles! If this is Steve's idea of 'shock and awe' I'm stunned by the silence ;)

Hopefully he'll have something decent to show us at wwdc other than eye candy. Being able to have remote gui login of different accounts (ala X11, but for Mac gui) would be a nice feature.

But alas, I suppose I can't wait any long for my precious 3GHZ machine....

[The Red Wolf]

First off the G5 update has an 8X Superdrive. When the eMac was updated, everyone whined about their Pro machine (or not even purchased Pro machine) only having this and that. Much argued about and now seriously overlooked.

Now, the ATI 9800 XT 256 MB VRAM - Last I checked that was top of the line.

1.25 GHz bus. That's 500 MHz across the board for the dual processors not to mention RAM, PCI-X slots (on the top 2 machines), etc. Anyone got a PC with 8 GB RAM in it, or even the expansion for it on a 1.25 GHz bus?

Liquid cooling... I work with MDD G4s. They are the noisiest machines I believe Apple has ever made, all to cool them down. (NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE STARTUP NOISE) I'm looking forward to them being replaced by G5s. Any G5s.

With that said, the WWDC is coming. iMac G5s? Maybe. Tiger yea, perhaps it will blow us away. New Screens maybe. Wireless Firewire to surpass blue tooth? Maybe. We can speculate about many things.

So here is my speculation: 84-04 Versions of the current line. Reasonable in price but with a bit more power. Kind of like a Wolfsburg Edition VW. Cheeper than the top of the line but with a Porsche suspension or some other goodie. A $2500 Dual 2.5 GHz with an 9800 XT standard but bluetooth and airport ready. Reasonable. Or unreasonable, insane, Steve Jobsian WWDC Keynote style. Shipping in Aug. 2004 The 84-04 PowerMac G5 Tower, Cube, and iMac. Also special edition G4 Portables. 20 Years of Macintosh. Let your imagination think up the specs. But not $10,000 with a leather keyboard. How about a single G5 2.8 GHz processor on the 130 process? Madness, it's all madness. Sit back and enjoy the show.

[hayesk]

The new PMs are WAY over prices i think apple needs to fire their marketing team and get one from the PC world becasue the prices the way they are Apple will never sell any macs and in 10years down the road apple will be no more unless they do something... but apple thinks their PMs or even their imacs are priced right... for what they offer.. 256mb ram and 1.8ghz..and 80gbs harddriver for 1999US u can get a PC for 1000CAN (around 750US) that is 3.2ghz P4 1GB ram 120gb HD and a ATi 9800 XT... come on apple if u have to take one thing from the PC world take their marketing.

Perhaps Apple's products cost more because it costs more to make them? There's more to pricing a product then just adding the cost of components and adding a bit of profit.

Apple has to develop the OS, develop the hardware, market the entire platform all by themselves (Lord knows the whiny "Apple is out to screw us" third party resellers don't help), and produce the machines. But yet you expect them to cost the same as a company that only has to produce the machines?

What marketing wizards are going to make all of this happen at a cheaper cost?

[aldo]

What a joke this update is.

1. Graphics cards - totally shambolic. You can get the top end cards in PCs that cost this much.
2. RAM - oh god, Apple drops the ball again!?
3. HDD space - 80GB in this kind of machine? Should be 160GB at the bottom and 2x 160GB in the top.

It's painfully obvious that Apple is way off getting good supplies of the 2.5GHz chips so they have resorted to liquid cooling - it's basically overclocking the CPU.

Also, CPU clockspeed gets less and less important every day. Apple drops themselves in for this by marketing all it's products with it's CPU speed. Apple now has the fastest clocked CPU out of IBM, Apple and Intel (Intel has switched to the Pentium-M core which is currently around 2GHz I belive). With some clever marketing they could of easily got round this, and they could of even marketed them as 5GHz machines (2x2.5GHz).

Overall a very disapointing update, and another broken promise. itunes, pepsi promotion, 3ghz - the list goes on. I personally am reconsidering what I want for my next computer - PC or Mac. Mac gets harder to justify everyday as I could build a totally kickass system for half the kind of price apple wants

[pjkelnhofer]

First off, it seems that IBM has gotten their 90nm processes at least under control to make pretty significant clock speed and bus speed increases. That means it should not be nearly as long 'till 3Ghz as it was to 2.5.

I agree that it appears that they have the 90nm process under control. I would be suprised if we see they 970fx get much faster. It is already faster than expected (originally it was expected to go up to 2.2GHz).

I think it is more likely that these are the PowerMacs for another year (possibly with some minor speed bumps as chip yields get better and better espcially for the bottom end) and we will not see 3.0GHz until we get the next generation G5 chip from IBM.

[nagromme]

Hopefully this will stop the "Apple will release 3GHz machines next week" speculation


You'd have thought so :D


1. Steve will announce a dual 3gig at WWDC. it will start shipping in August
2. It will push everything down the line making daul 2 1999 and dual 2.5 2499 and dual 3 2999
3. People that have ordered a dual 2.5 can keep thier order and have it ship right away, or upgrade to dual 3 and wait untill the end of august to get their dual 3.

This is very likely.
(Sorry themacman, don't mean to single you out of everyone here--it just made an amusing pair of quotes! But Apple won't change prices on anything just weeks after shipping. They'd just start today's new ones cheaper to begin with rather than do that--it wouldn't be fair.)


He said no G5 PB's, but he said nothing about iMacs :)

Yes he did:

While Boger didn't give a timeframe for an iMac G5, he did say the company faced similar challenges getting a G5 to work with their consumer desktop.

"It's the same story -- the challenges are obvious when you look at the G5 and the size of the heatsinks and the enclosure; that would be a heck of a challenge as well."

So expect new iMacs--hopefully really great buys--but expect them to be G4 for now. OR perhaps a whole new consumer line with a new form factor (headless option?). That could allow a G5. It could be called an iMac still :)

The current reality is that Macs have a great OS and we have some very fast new machines--but IBM doesn't have chips as fast and low-power as we'd like. It would be nice if Apple would take a loss and sell them cheaper to compensate. It would be nice if they had the latest GPUs and more RAM standard instead of optional. It would be nice if LCD component costs had dropped low enough for Apple to have a whole new, improved, and cheaper display line before now. Those things aren't the case.

So there's nothing to do but buy what you need and know that it's the best hardware/OS package in the world. The other stuff will catch up in time.

[hayesk]

your right but still.. at least lower the prices or add 512 ram all around.. the update is great but what they offer with it is crap

How does Apple just magically lower the price, yet still stay in business? They charge what they need to. Look at Apple's history. The last time they attempted to lower prices to compete with the PC market was the late 1990's - look at how well their business was doing then.

More RAM will raise the price. With less RAM, you are free to go out and purchase much cheaper third party RAM.

[Mac|caM]

The new PMs are WAY over prices i think apple needs to fire their marketing team and get one from the PC world becasue the prices the way they are Apple will never sell any macs and in 10years down the road apple will be no more unless they do something... but apple thinks their PMs or even their imacs are priced right... for what they offer.. 256mb ram and 1.8ghz..and 80gbs harddriver for 1999US u can get a PC for 1000CAN (around 750US) that is 3.2ghz P4 1GB ram 120gb HD and a ATi 9800 XT... come on apple if u have to take one thing from the PC world take their marketing.

Maybe they can sell a crap-a** PC for $750, but Dell and all of the others don't do in-house R&D like Apple does for all of their products, they don't have 64-bit processors, they don't have the best hardware designer in the world (Jonathan Ive), the computers are loud as hell, they look like crap, that 3.2 Ghz P4 is slower than the low end G5, and it isn't even possible to do multi-processors on a P4.

PS: People have been saying Apple will go down because of their prices for 20 years. I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon.

[aldo]

Perhaps Apple's products cost more because it costs more to make them? There's more to pricing a product then just adding the cost of components and adding a bit of profit.

Apple has to develop the OS, develop the hardware, market the entire platform all by themselves (Lord knows the whiny "Apple is out to screw us" third party resellers don't help), and produce the machines. But yet you expect them to cost the same as a company that only has to produce the machines?

What marketing wizards are going to make all of this happen at a cheaper cost?

That's stupid. I think people are willing to pay a little more for an Apple comupter, but when it starts getting to nearly double the cost of a similar PC, then you have to wonder. Consumers don't care that it costs more to build, they want the best product at the lowest price. And the price usaully wins out.

[pjkelnhofer]

...snip...
u can get a PC for 1000CAN (around 750US) that is 3.2ghz P4 1GB ram 120gb HD and a ATi 9800 XT... come on apple if u have to take one thing from the PC world take their marketing

Please send a link where I can get this computer for $750!

[The Red Wolf]

When Apple makes a G5 3.0 GHz machine... Lets say the line is 3.0, 3.4 and a 3.8 for the first release of a 3.X line. Will everyone complain of how everyone has been waiting for the 3.0 for so long... Only to have it be the low end of a future released G5 line. 3.0 Delivered, 3.8 unexpected. Mythical yes, but possible.

[Skiniftz]

At least the waiting is finally over. Like my new sig? :rolleyes:

[bousozoku]

Jobs said at last years WWDC that, "a year from now we will be at 3 GHZ...."

Well is he going to release something this fall as 3GHZ or is this it? If this is it and we don't see a 3GHZ this fall, IBM is not living up to it's end of the bargain.

Remember that The G5 didn't come out untill the fall last year, so we could see 3GHZ after all.

If only physics were so simple. Do you think the people at IBM's East Fishkill plant like this? Of course they don't. The change in the manufacturing process is huge (or tiny, if you prefer ;)) but it's very difficult to achieve. Obviously, when you're doing something that is at the bleeding edge, you're going to bleed.

There won't be any 3 GHz machines for a while, unless you can help IBM solve their physics problem. ;)

[ccuilla]

Not if we are shooting for 3GHz? The sad thing is... what's next? When everyone else is shooting for 4 and up apple is scrathing their heads.

Really? Maybe. Maybe though, they are all starting to hit some real limits. It's not just about CPU cycles...it's about heat now.

[alexf]

If one were to buy a new dual 1.8 GHz machine and upgrade to the same specs as the previous dual 1.8 GHz model (and it still would not be the same since it would only be expandible to 4 GB of memory), the total would come to: $2,274 at the Apple Store. The previous price, which was set at the end of October, was $2,499!

I am glad that I am not in the market to buy right now, because I would be very disappointed by this long anticipated upgrade...

[pjkelnhofer]

That's stupid. I think people are willing to pay a little more for an Apple comupter, but when it starts getting to nearly double the cost of a similar PC, then you have to wonder. Consumers don't care that it costs more to build, they want the best product at the lowest price. And the price usaully wins out.

Where can you get this "similar PC" at the half or even the same cost? People keep saying that. I want to see one!

[snahabed]

I think we all should expect NOTHING but a Tiger preview at WWDC. Clearly there will be no Powermac announcements; they haven't been able to put a G5 in a Powerbook; which means they can't fit it in a current iMac; they already announced new hardware in Airport Express; iTunes Europe is getting a separate day.

It looks like Apple is treating WWDC as a true DEVELOPERS conference, to show off their new operating system they want people to DEVELOP things for. I cannot even fathom what Tiger has that Panther doesn't!

Anyway, these Powermac revisions are NOT great, and Apple knows this -- otherwise, they would be using WWDC as more than a developers conference to announce them. They clearly don't want to hear the horrified gasps in the audience ("1 year, and the ONLY thing you can come up with is a 2.5??"). This line refresh would have seemed fine in January -- it is a respectable 6-month update. But only a true koolaid drinker could think "wow, I am so glad I waited a year for... this!"

[Trekkie]

For everyone complaining about the lack of a 3.0 or whatever screw that I just ordered one and the 23" monitor. Going from an iMac 800Mhz. Whiplash baby.

[Trekkie]

Really? Maybe. Maybe though, they are all starting to hit some real limits. It's not just about CPU cycles...it's about heat now.

Not only heat, but the power requirements are getting hefty too.

[Bhennies]

So I just called Apple...the 1.8 and 2.0 have the old processor and architecture. How sad. So so sad.

[kootenay]

Boger also states that users should not expect G5 PowerBooks this year.

Queer! After awaking this morning I found an e-mail from the Apple store stating that my new Powerbook G4 17" had just shipped. A minute later I surfed over to Maccentral and saw the "No G5 laptop anytime soon" announcement. After having played the Powerbook G5 waiting game since last June, I'm already feeling much better about my purchase!

Incidentally, I chose the free "ground shipping" (up to 11 business days delivery) option for my order. The e-mail provides a FedEx tracking number, which shows that the PowerBook is shipping from Shanghai, China with expected delivery by Monday. Is this normal, or is it a sign that Apple is still having problems ramping up production to have sufficient Powerbook G4s for a North American point of distribution ?

[jragosta]

It's painfully obvious that Apple is way off getting good supplies of the 2.5GHz chips so they have resorted to liquid cooling - it's basically overclocking the CPU.




Let's stop that kind of nonsense.

Overclocking means running faster than the manufacturer tested and approved them for. These chips will have an IBM stamp on them that says '2.5 GHz'. That means that they're not overclocked - by definition.

[IBSNOWEDIN]

Please send a link where I can get this computer for $750!

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/ it was a speical they had have to look around the site to find it.

[hayesk]

That's stupid. I think people are willing to pay a little more for an Apple comupter, but when it starts getting to nearly double the cost of a similar PC, then you have to wonder. Consumers don't care that it costs more to build, they want the best product at the lowest price. And the price usaully wins out.

No, you don't have to wonder. You only need an elementary knowledge of business. Apple has to make money to stay in business. Apple's costs are far more than the average PC clone maker's costs. Hence, Apple has to charge more. If it is nearly double (which is BS when you compare features *and* quality*), then so be it.

Apple may lose a few customers that have no concept of simple business, but it's better than trying to please these few ignorant customers and closing up shop a year later.

But, Apple's financial reports are public. Feel free to go through them and show us where they are wasting money.

[soosy]

What? PowerMacs cost more than Wintels? How strange?! Is Apple setting some sort of new precedent? </sarcasm> :p

[Mac|caM]

Not only heat, but the power requirements are getting hefty too.

Also, though maybe not in the near future, there is a certain temp. (and a clock speed that pertains to that temp.) that silicon melts at. After they reach that speed, they'll have to start making chips out of diamonds (no joke, I read an article about it), which will be really expensive, unless they use these nifty synthetic ones that are exactly the same as real diamonds (I read it in Wired magazine, www.wired.com)

[tf23]

I thought the very same thing. Along with a bit of a price drop.

That's the trick - everything that Apple would add to the base config is less profit for them - or, rather, it's less people will pay extra to have added to their systems when they order.

[jragosta]

why are people calling this an upgrade???

they have lowered the spec of 2 of the existing pms and brought in a new one

why lower the specs for the dual 1.8
and why give the dual 2.0 a really crap graphics card

HOW COULD WE BE HAPPY WITH THAT?????

You start by using your head.

The $1999 machine used to be a single 1.8 GHz. It's now a dual 1.8 GHz.

The $2499 machine used to be a dual 1.8 GHz. It's now a dual 2.0 GHz.

The $2999 machine used to be a dual 2.0 GHz. It's now a dual 2.5 GHz.

Other specs have been improved, too (such as faster Superdrive).

What kind of bizarre logic makes you claim that it's NOT an upgrade?

[hayesk]

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/ it was a speical they had have to look around the site to find it.

Uhm... yeah. I saw nothing even close at that site.

[MadMan]

At least the waiting is finally over. Like my new sig? :rolleyes:
2.5DPG5 CTO Z0AC On or before 02/08/2004


Waiting is the keyword here. You have an August ship date on this? :eek:

I thought they were supposed to be shipping in July!

Just hope you don't have to wait as long as I have had to for my Dual 2.0 xServe G5: Ordered Jan 11, 2004 Now due on June 21, 2004

:rolleyes:

MM

[jragosta]

Wow! I'm surprised that the dual 1.8 GHz and 2.0 GHz machines are actually DOWNGRADES from the previous models!

The dual 1.8 GHz model no longer has PCI-X, only has half of the previous hard drive size (80 GB), is now only expandible to 4 GB RAM, and ships with only 256 MB of memory instead of 512 MB.

And the graphics card of the dual 2.0 GHz machine has been downgraded to the NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra!

Sure, the prices have been reduced and they now all have 8x superdrives (about which I could really care less), but this "downgrade" is incredible... How can this be?
:confused:

Use your head.

The old $1999 model was single 1.8. The new one is dual. GeForce 5200 in both cases.
The old $2499 model was dual 1.8. The new one is dual 2.0. ATI 9600 in both cases.
The old $2999 model was dual 2.0. The new one is dual 2.5. ATI 9600 in both cases.

Plus faster superdrive.

It takes a pretty warped sense of logic to claim that these are downgrades.

[Bhennies]

You start by using your head.

The $1999 machine used to be a single 1.8 GHz. It's now a dual 1.8 GHz.

The $2499 machine used to be a dual 1.8 GHz. It's now a dual 2.0 GHz.

The $2999 machine used to be a dual 2.0 GHz. It's now a dual 2.5 GHz.

Other specs have been improved, too (such as faster Superdrive).

What kind of bizarre logic makes you claim that it's NOT an upgrade?The 1.8 and 2.0 have essentially been downgraded except for the superdrive. They have the same processor as the old machines, and the dual 1.8 has been clipped to 4gig of ram. That's a downgrade by definition. Plus, when you wait a year for a new machine and the middle and low end have the SAME specs compared to the inflation rate of technology- doing nothing is a downgrade. I AM SO STUPID! I SHOULD HAVE JUST BOUGHT A DUAL 1.8 IN JANUARY.

p.s. the price drops do not qualify as "upgrades". I call that a "sale".

p.p.s. the video cards are not worth waiting 1 year.

[mcdawson]

Jobs said at last years WWDC that, "a year from now we will be at 3 GHZ...."

Well is he going to release something this fall as 3GHZ or is this it? If this is it and we don't see a 3GHZ this fall, IBM is not living up to it's end of the bargain.

Remember that The G5 didn't come out untill the fall last year, so we could see 3GHZ after all.
I'm sure Jobs promised the roadmap that IBM promised to him. It really seems that IBM couldn't keep their promise--their 90nm process delivery was delayed about 4 months (Jan XServes vs April/May volume ship). If the 3 GHz parts were to be based on the 90nm process, they're likely delayed the same 4 months or so, which would probably put the 3's to be shipping at MacWorld Jan…

[Skiniftz]

Waiting is the keyword here. You have an August ship date on this? :eek:

I thought they were supposed to be shipping in July!

Just hope you don't have to wait as long as I have had to for my Dual 2.0 xServe G5: Ordered Jan 11, 2004 Now due on June 21, 2004

:rolleyes:

MM

Sadly yes. To be fair it did say estimated build date = JULY. *sigh*. Wait wait wait.

[Wonder Boy]

i watch all the keynotes, read a lot of what jobs says and have always be reluctant to call him a bull****er because i enjoy the products. i want to believe what he says is true. but this time he has gone too far. he failed. he made a promise and failed. he lied to us. no right-thinking person will expect 3.0 upgrades before the january expo. liar. jobs is a liar. and don't start complaing about the "steve bashing" either. i am calling him what he is. he promised us 3.0 ghz and did't follow through. from this day on i will no longer read or listen to anything jobs says with a grain of salt. no, today starts unbrindled skeptism to EVERYTHING he says. you brought this on yourself, jobs. don't make promises your reputaton can't keep. i thought you would have learned that by now.

ps. can you tell i really wanted a 3ghz g5? :mad: :rolleyes:

[Ja Di ksw]

I wonder how much I would have to prostitute myself for to get 3 grand for a 2.5 G5?

My guess is a lot, unless you find some rich idiots. Now you'll have to excuse me, there's a street corner I have to stand at

Oh, wait. I just bought a new pb with the upgraded video card. *hugs pb* No dealing with lonely women tonight!

So with the liquid cooling, would you have to keep replacing it? Seems like a hassle if you do. What's the weight compared to the old one? I imagine water would make it weigh a lot more

[½win½lin]

I think the most annoying thing is the graphics performance.

A radeon 9800XT should be standard, no questions.

Here in the UK a 9600 is a sub £100 card, and you can pick up a 9800Pro for £150 or so.

Given the problems with CPUs Apple should have held out and offered X800's in the top models and and 9800 across the rest of the line.

[Bendit]

I was just thinking... if 3Ghz is not going to happen with these G5's...at least not for a year or more.. What kind of future is there with IBM?

Who said it won't happen within a year? It could come in the fall.

[hayesk]

p.s. the price drops do not qualify as "upgrades". I call that a "sale".

p.p.s. the video cards are not worth waiting 1 year.

Then you shouldn't have waited. Waiting is stupid, unless there is no computer you can afford that will do what you need it to. What do you need to do that wasn't available to you a year ago?

[jsnuff1]

The high end being and overclocked G5 makes perfect sense. Think about it, IBM stated they had problems producing 2.0 GHZ G5's. I doubt they fixed those problems in a month and ramped up to 2.5 Ghz. And why would apple all of a sudden introduce liquid cooling just for this system. It simply and overclocked 2 Ghz G5 stabilized with liquid cooling.

[tf23]

MAN AM I HAPPY I BOUGHT MY POWERBOOK NOW!!!


He could also be spouting crap about no G5 Powerbooks soon. Afterall, Apple doesn't really pre-announce machines coming out. If he said "We'll definitely have G5 pb's out by the end of the year" that would surely canabolize their pb sales and backup inventory for the rest of 2004.

[mowogg]

I think we all should expect NOTHING but a Tiger preview at WWDC. Clearly there will be no Powermac announcements; they haven't been able to put a G5 in a Powerbook; which means they can't fit it in a current iMac; they already announced new hardware in Airport Express; iTunes Europe is getting a separate day.

I think we'll see a line of single processor pro-sumer machines introduced at WWDC. This minor upgrade has effected two milestones: 1. The complete migration to DP in the Pro Tower line up and 2. The EOL of the G4 towers.

This leaves a gaping hole in the line up. The eMac and iMac are targeted at a different (and appearantly waaayy small) demographic and there is a need for a mid-range, expandable machine from Apple.

Here's what I think we'll see:

$999
1.6 G5 desktop with a base 40Gig ATA and a CD drive drive based on the PCI motherboard. It will likely offer 3 PCI slots, an AGP slot for the 32Mb
video card and 256Mb of RAM expandable to 1Gig in 2 slots.

$1299
1.6 G5 with a 60Gig HD and a Combo drive. 256Mb RAM and a 64Mb VC.

$1599
1.8 G5 with a 120Gig drive, Superdrive and 512Mb RAM and the 64mb VC.

$1899
2.0 G5, 160Gig drive, Superdrive, 512Mb RAM and 64Mb VC.

What d' ya think?

[IBSNOWEDIN]

Uhm... yeah. I saw nothing even close at that site.

not too sure.. a friend brought one about a month ago showed me it on that site.... i don't really go to PC computers sites.. so i couldn't say if it was there or not but he got it for 1000can and that is what it had on it.

[TWinbrook46636]

I think we all should expect NOTHING but a Tiger preview at WWDC. Clearly there will be no Powermac announcements; they haven't been able to put a G5 in a Powerbook which means they can't fit it in a current iMac; they already announced new hardware in Airport Express; iTunes Europe is getting a separate day.

I don't understand why people keep coming this this conclusion. The iMac is not an inch thick like the PowerBook so why would there be a problem? It is being redesigned specifically for the G5 anyway. A 1.5/1.6 G5 iMac is entirely possible.

[Mac|caM]

i watch all the keynotes, read a lot of what jobs says and have always be reluctant to call him a bullshi+er because i enjoy the products. i want to believe what he says is true. but this time he has gone too far. he failed. he made a promise and failed. he lied to us. no right-thinking person will expect 3.0 upgrades before the january expo. liar. jobs is a liar. and don't start complaing about the "steve bashing" either. i am calling him what he is. he promised us 3.0 ghz and did't follow through. from this day on i will no longer read or listen to anything jobs says with a grain of salt. no, today starts unbrindled skeptism to EVERYTHING he says. you brought this on yourself, jobs. don't make promises your reputaton can't keep. i thought you would have learned that by now.

First, if you "make a promise and fail" you didn't lie, because you didn't know you were going to fail. Therefore, Steve isn't a liar. Second, Steve wasn't the one who "did't [sic] follow through". IBM didn't. But they didn't lie either. They thought they would have 3Ghz by now, but it turns out that shrinking your chip feature size by over 30% really is as hard as it seems (wow, who would've thought). So, chill out. Before you run your mouth off, stop and think about who is responsible for what.

[jragosta]

The 1.8 and 2.0 have essentially been downgraded except for the superdrive. They have the same processor as the old machines, and the dual 1.8 has been clipped to 4gig of ram. That's a downgrade by definition. Plus, when you wait a year for a new machine and the middle and low end have the SAME specs compared to the inflation rate of technology- doing nothing is a downgrade. I AM SO STUPID! I SHOULD HAVE JUST BOUGHT A DUAL 1.8 IN JANUARY.

p.s. the price drops do not qualify as "upgrades". I call that a "sale".

p.p.s. the video cards are not worth waiting 1 year.

You're still confused.

For years, Apple has had a 3 tier system.

Low end - $1999
Mid range - $2499
High end - $2999

Each of those systems has been significantly improved.

Granted, today's low end is last year's midrange, but that's not the point. A low end system today is significantly better than a low end system last year - no matter how many times you deny it.

[Bhennies]

Then you shouldn't have waited. Waiting is stupid, unless there is no computer you can afford that will do what you need it to. What do you need to do that wasn't available to you a year ago?I agree...I said I was stupd for waiting. I have a new powerbook to tide me over, but I would like a new machine and new display for my recording studio. Hence- waiting. Plus, there was pretty strong rumors about a release in March when i wanted to buy. PLus the rev.a g5's have many problems that I don't want to deal with (chirping etc.). That's a reasonable reason to wait.

[pjkelnhofer]

So I just called Apple...the 1.8 and 2.0 have the old processor and architecture. How sad. So so sad.

Interesting, according the Technology and Performance Overview (http://a1696.g.akamai.net/7/1696/51/36beef813bd8fe/www.apple.com/powermac/pdf/PowerMacG5_TO_06092004.pdf) they are all using 90nm technology. Doesn't sound like the old architecture.

[Bendit]

1. Steve will announce a dual 3gig at WWDC. it will start shipping in August
2. It will push everything down the line making daul 2 1999 and dual 2.5 2499 and dual 3 2999
3. People that have ordered a dual 2.5 can keep thier order and have it ship right away, or upgrade to dual 3 and wait untill the end of august to get their dual 3.

This is very likely. I looked how long it will take to get a dual 2.5 shipped it says it will ship in mid july this means that 3ghz could still be very possible. I think jobs will talk about the 3ghz and on the 3ghz there will be some kind of new technology. The Dual 3 Ghz will probably ship with tiger on it in september, October

This is a retarded theory. They are releasing this PowerMac with no intention of selling it at the price advertised just to change the entire product line and prices AGAIN in 2 weeks? I don't think so.

It's more likely that the 2.5 is a taste of what they are working on and obviously couldn't complete for the summer. Maybe in the fall the 2.5 will drop to the low end and a 3.0 will come out with the same liquid-cooling design.

[Trekkie]

Let's stop that kind of nonsense.

Overclocking means running faster than the manufacturer tested and approved them for. These chips will have an IBM stamp on them that says '2.5 GHz'. That means that they're not overclocked - by definition.


Speaking as a hardware person you will see liquid cooling in intel servers within 3 years ago.

whoops, did I say that? oh yeah, that's right. There have been closed loop liquid cooling in IBM eServer xSeries since the x360 in November, 2001.

Just because a bunch of people buy different liquid cooling things out there for Overclocking their machines does not mean that liquid cooling = overclocking. Things get hot as frequency increases. There comes a point where unless we go to 65 nano the power input gets so high that blowing air becomes pointless (if you want to sit in the same room with it, and then db isn't an issue, you just can't move air across it/transfer the heat up the heatsink fast enougH)

Liquid cooling is here to stay. Intel's dual core chips are almost going to double the power req's and the heat output until they hit 65 nano in 2005/2006

[jragosta]

The high end being and overclocked G5 makes perfect sense. Think about it, IBM stated they had problems producing 2.0 GHZ G5's. I doubt they fixed those problems in a month and ramped up to 2.5 Ghz. And why would apple all of a sudden introduce liquid cooling just for this system. It simply and overclocked 2 Ghz G5 stabilized with liquid cooling.

Since it is rated at 2.5 GHz both by Apple and IBM, it's not overclocked - by definition. Overclocking is running a computer faster than its rated speed. If it's rated at 2.5 GHz, how is it overclocking to run it at 2.5 GHz?

[Bhennies]

Interesting, according the Technology and Performance Overview (http://a1696.g.akamai.net/7/1696/51/36beef813bd8fe/www.apple.com/powermac/pdf/PowerMacG5_TO_06092004.pdf) they are all using 90nm technology. Doesn't sound like the old architecture.well...you got me?...no one here knew for sure so I called Apple. The salesman had just left the meeting and told me otherwise. I hope they are new!

[Mr. MacPhisto]

MacCentral (http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2004/06/09/apple/index.php?redirect=1086765595000) quotes Apple's Directory of Power Mac Product Marketing, Tom Boger regarding the 3GHz prediction from Steve Jobs last year. According to Boger, Apple will not meet the 3GHz promise:



Boger also states that users should not expect G5 PowerBooks this year.

It's hard to tell how to take these comments. I don't think an Apple exec would come out right now and say: "yeah, we've got dual 3GHZ machines planned for launch in September." That would deflate the demand for these new machines. Also, his wording is ambiguous. Depending on how you view it, 90 days could be considered "some time".

As for the PowerBooks, I also don't see G5s being admitted to either. Once again, it would just hurt demand for current PowerBooks. I also tend to think that Apple will use FreeScale's new offerings (if they deliver) for the PowerBooks.

I still believe we will see the Power5 derivative before the year is out.

[alexf]

You start by using your head.

The $1999 machine used to be a single 1.8 GHz. It's now a dual 1.8 GHz.

The $2499 machine used to be a dual 1.8 GHz. It's now a dual 2.0 GHz.

The $2999 machine used to be a dual 2.0 GHz. It's now a dual 2.5 GHz.

Other specs have been improved, too (such as faster Superdrive).

What kind of bizarre logic makes you claim that it's NOT an upgrade?

You are not looking at the facts:

The dual 1.8 GHz and 2.0 GHz machines are actually DOWNGRADES from the previous models.

The dual 1.8 GHz model no longer has PCI-X, only has half of the previous hard drive size (80 GB), is now only expandible to 4 GB RAM, and ships with only 256 MB of memory instead of 512 MB.

And the graphics card of the dual 2.0 GHz machine has been downgraded to the NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra.

Sure, the prices have been reduced and they now all have 8x superdrives (about which I could really care less), but the two starting models have nonetheless been downgraded - the dual 1.8 GHz machine quite significantly.

[csimmons]

I know many of you were "disappointed" by today's announcement, but it amazes me how quickly you all forget where the Mac was less than a year ago. Last year at this time, the top-of-the-line shipping Mac was a DP 1.42GHz G4 with a 167MHz SHARED system bus! Today we have a DP 2.5 GHz G5 w/ dual 1.25 Frontside Busses, and liquid cooled to boot , and you guys are bitching?!?!? :rolleyes:

No wonder why PC users think we're a cult...

[pjkelnhofer]

I don't understand why people keep coming this this conclusion. The iMac is not an inch thick like the PowerBook so why would there be a problem? It is being redesigned specifically for the G5 anyway. A 1.5/1.6 G5 iMac is entirely possible.

I love it when some one actually makes sense in these threads.

The iMac was significantly redesigned when it went from G3 to G4, I would expect a similar redesign moving to G5. The design with be predicated on keeping a 1.6GHz G5 chip cool. I think that the folks at Apple are up to the challenge. The PowerBook is much, much trickier because you are locked into the basic notebook form factor.

[triton]

Hell with it. I'm still waiting!! I wanted a 3ghz, and dammit, I'm going to just buy it when it comes out. I have an imac right now anyhow to keep me going. This update seems a little weak to me - :)

[seraphnyc]

Apple just loves to piss me off this is why I am just going to Build a PC , **** Apple , atleast they could have put out something better in the lower models. a single/dual 2ghz and Dual 2.2 low and mid end would have been great. and come on $3000 for a comp and all we get is a 2nd rate soon to be outdated and replaced Radeon 9600XT that should be minimum . a 9800XT should be standard on a 3K machine , i'd love to see Dell , HP or AlienWare try to pull this Bull **** off. ALL APPLE HAS DONE IS UPDATE 1 MACHINE AND NOW IS TRYING 2 SELL US IT'S OVER STOCKED CRAP AT A DISCOUNT.

While i like the Liquid cooling alot i'm disappointed to see it's only on the High end. NOTE TO APPLE: AMD NOW HAS AN ATHLON 64 +3800. They will have a +4000 by Oct/Nov or sooner.

Also Why did they ever bother to put in a PCI-X Slot in. this is a complete waste as PCI-X will be used Exclusively for the Server Market, The PC Industry has already Picked the Better and faster PCI Express as the new Standard to replace PCI making PCI-X a total waste unless ur running an X-Serve. Doesn't Apple Realize i can Biuld me a Spanking new +3800/FX-53 system for under 2K , and don't let me jump on those Phoney Benchmarks where the new G5 2.5 beats the AMD 64 FX-53 by 93% .....LMAO yea right.

My... how fickle the crowd can be. Tell me tho, what use is an AMD chip if the OS running it (that is, if you are not running Linux) is lackluster, barbaric and generally a throw back in the evolution of an operating system?

In all reality, the thought that someone would be so quick to drop ANYTHING so flat over something, yes disappointing, rather trivial is frightening. It is like being a fan of a band and dropping that fandom due to a bad single. Just strange to me.

[DMann]

Considering the unforeseen delay of the 970 FX,
the early June release of the 2.5 Ghz is likely
a positive sign that we will be seeing the
promised 3 Ghz sooner than the routine
6 month cycle. Since IBM has not encountered
delays with the fab of the 975s, there is no reason,
other than marketing, to delay the announcement
of the 3 Ghz beyond a four month timeframe. :rolleyes:

[utilizer]

Don't know if someone already said it but...
Alright, I'm just as shocked as all of you are. But here's the deal: OS X Tiger will probably make the G5s twice as fast as they are now in Photoshop and Lightwave type deals. Plus, Adobe and the others involved in high-end computational software development will most likely release 64-bit editions of their software later in the year. I bet we will hear something along these lines from these folks at WWDC and possibly even a preview of it in action.
That would more than make up for the lack of not reaching 3Ghz and also explain why they are so forthcoming about the wall they've run into with 90 nm G5s. Just my take, but take it as you will! ;)

[alexf]

I know many of you were "disappointed" by today's announcement, but it amazes me how quickly you all forget where the Mac was less than a year ago. Last year at this time, the top-of-the-line shipping Mac was a DP 1.42GHz G4 with a 167MHz SHARED system bus! Today we have a DP 2.5 GHz G5 w/ dual 1.25 Frontside Busses, and liquid cooled to boot , and you guys are bitching?!?!? :rolleyes:

No wonder why PC users think we're a cult...

Good point :)

Yet in my mind the real disappointment is not the lack of a 3.0 GHz machine, which was obviously not going to happen anyway, but the fact that the two starting models have now been downgraded and the prices have not been lowered accordingly.

[Mac|caM]

You are not looking at the facts:

The dual 1.8 GHz and 2.0 GHz machines are actually DOWNGRADES from the previous models.

The dual 1.8 GHz model no longer has PCI-X, only has half of the previous hard drive size (80 GB), is now only expandible to 4 GB RAM, and ships with only 256 MB of memory instead of 512 MB.

And the graphics card of the dual 2.0 GHz machine has been downgraded to the NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra.

Sure, the prices have been reduced and they now all have 8x superdrives (about which I could really care less), but the two starting models have nonetheless been downgraded - the dual 1.8 GHz machine quite significantly.

Yes, but you are comparing the dual 1.8 and 2.0 machines to their previous incarnations (i.e. high-end and middle machines), instead of what they are replacing (i.e. middle and low-end machines). You can't compare differently priced machines from different generations. You should be comparing these to the 1.6 and 1.8 machines from Rev. A.

[furrina]

You're still confused.

For years, Apple has had a 3 tier system.

Low end - $1999
Mid range - $2499
High end - $2999

Each of those systems has been significantly improved.



This is interesting --- I was looking around an "apple history" site the other day and they had the avg. prices of all the models way back to the beginning, and even during the times of the Quadra/Centris/LC (over ten years ago) the price of a low end consumer machine was around $2k to $2.5k(WITHOUT the display) and back then that was a lot more money.
Of course the price of home computers has fallen drastically since then, and apple has always been a significant percentage higher than the average pc product, but allowing for those two factors, it's been quite consistent. And at the moment we're getting a lot more machine for a little less.

[macrumors12345]

NOTE TO APPLE: AMD NOW HAS AN ATHLON 64 +3800.


Dude, get a clue - the 3800+ number is AMD's "performance rating", not the actual clock speed (apparently their little slight of hand worked quite well on you, however). The fastest Athlon-64 is clocked at 2.4 Ghz, which is 100 Mhz slower than the fastest G5 (and if you want to try to actually do any real kind of performance comparison, at those speeds in general the G5 will be substantially faster than the Athlon at floating point and vector calcs, and somewhat slower at integer calcs). And the Athlon's not going to get faster any time soon...unlike Intel and IBM, they still have yet to even make the initial transition to 90 nm (but don't worry, AMD's partner at 90 nm is Motorola, and we all know how reliable they are... ;-) ).

But I guess in your world neither the G5 nor the Athlon 64 nor the Pentium 4 can match the power of my midrange video card. After all, I have a "9600" video card, whereas the fastest Athlon 64 is only "3800"...so my video card is over twice as "fast" as an Athlon 64! And man am I glad that I have the Radeon 9600 instead of the GeFX 5200, because 9600/5200 = 1.85, so according to you my Radeon is 85% faster than the NVidia card would have been...

[alexf]

Yes, but you are comparing the dual 1.8 and 2.0 machines to their previous incarnations (i.e. high-end and middle machines), instead of what they are replacing (i.e. middle and low-end machines). You can't compare differently priced machines from different generations. You should be comparing these to the 1.6 and 1.8 machines from Rev. A.

Yes, but as I mentioned before, if one is to go to the Apple store and buy essentially the same dual 1.8 GHz machine as was previously available (meaning upgrading the hard drive, memory, PCI, etc.), the price would come out to be only about $200 less... and you still would have only 4 memory slots instead of 8, which to me is a big disadvantage since you willl probably have to get rid of the memory it ships with when you upgrade.

[pjkelnhofer]

You are not looking at the facts:

The dual 1.8 GHz and 2.0 GHz machines are actually DOWNGRADES from the previous models.

The dual 1.8 GHz model no longer has PCI-X, only has half of the previous hard drive size (80 GB), is now only expandible to 4 GB RAM, and ships with only 256 MB of memory instead of 512 MB.

So this proves that they are not the same machines that were sitting around. Clearly, if it went from the PCI-X to PCI and 8 RAM slots to 4, the Dual 1.8 has a different motherboard.
As for the processor, some people are claiming it is the same old chip but according to this (http://a1696.g.akamai.net/7/1696/51/36beef813bd8fe/www.apple.com/powermac/pdf/PowerMacG5_TO_06092004.pdf ) they are using 90nm technology. So it seems there are 970fx chips throughout the line.
As for the video cards, until something faster is actually availible for Mac they would be stupid to put the 9800XT standard in the G5, how then would they make money on BTO upgrades (not to mention the number of people who would "downgrade" to the 9600XT to save $300 off the price).

[centauratlas]

He never said no iMac G5. I bet it will be released at WWDC with Mac OS 10.4 installed on it. I am going to put that on my site. (apple.gq.nu)

I will be REALLY REALLY REALLY surprised to see 10.4 shipping on anything at WWDC.

WWDC is a developer's conference. Yes, they *show* the OS but the fastest they've shipped (recently) afterward was Oct and that was with a May WWDC.

Likewise given Apple's recent comments about it being longer between OS X revisions, seeing it *sooner* that previous revisions is REALLY wishful thinking.

So, if you think you'll get an announcment of OS X 10.4 shipping in June, you'll be disappointed.

[Bhennies]

So this proves that they are not the same machines that were sitting around. Clearly, if it went from the PCI-X to PCI and 8 RAM slots to 4, the Dual 1.8 has a different motherboard.
As for the processor, some people are claiming it is the same old chip but according to this (http://a1696.g.akamai.net/7/1696/51/36beef813bd8fe/www.apple.com/powermac/pdf/PowerMacG5_TO_06092004.pdf ) they are using 90nm technology. So it seems there are 970fx chips throughout the line.
As for the video cards, until something faster is actually availible for Mac they would be stupid to put the 9800XT standard in the G5, how then would they make money on BTO upgrades (not to mention the number of people who would "downgrade" to the 9600XT to save $300 off the price).Hi there...I'm just curious. I couldn't find an info about the 90 nm chip. Which page was it on?

[centauratlas]

Hopefully this will stop the "Apple will release 3GHz machines next week" speculation

arn

But what about the week AFTER next?

:D

[Mac|caM]

Well, since everyone else is complaining ;), I thought I'd get in as well.

I think you should just be happy with whatever you get. Right now, the high-end G5's clock speed alone is over 6 times faster than my poor old first-gen "Yikes!" G4's. I can't do any kind of AGP graphics in this this, I can't put in AirPort, etc. I'm not even mentioning the bus (12.5 times faster than mine) or anything else. I'm hoping soon I can get something new.

[gloftis]

Not if we are shooting for 3GHz? The sad thing is... what's next? When everyone else is shooting for 4 and up apple is scrathing their heads.

Ahh! I'll bet you mean those people who write "Intel inside" on the front of CPUs.

Let's see, would that make you a video or audio creator? No, the existing 2 X 2.0 PMs already own that segment.

Are you in graphics or publishing? Odds are, no, because the industry standards already are faster and more reliable on G5s than on boxes using the other operating system.

Possibly you need more speed to manage your photos and tunes. Naah!

Well, that leaves gamers, and if Ghz are the new equivalent of effective slide rule length, DEFINITELY go buy a computer with 4 Ghz! You can use the "Blue Screen of Death" time to ponder your Ghz.

[itsa]

All-in-all, no we are not getting to 3GHz anytime soon, but what we are announcing today is a very significant upgrade in performance and its something that our customers will be very happy with.

Not too many happy yet!

[pdxdeano]

Can't we all just get along :)

As of today we are barely over half way thru the year.

Imagine what could still come at WWDC or later in the year.....

60G iPod with video out?
A redesigned iMac G5
A Mac Tablet... the iPad
Fire-wireless
3GHz G5 in time for Xmas

I know some of you are dissapointed by today's release but let's look forward to the rest of the year and rumor on.

Happy 20th Mac

[ingenious]

NICE!! it is Water cooled and also their is a better graphics card u have the option of a 9800 XT 256mb.. also the FSB at 1250mhz is crazy... must be very quiet.. aswell so i think this is a step up and it is 90nm ship aswell!!

Good job Apple!


Ah, good! Another "glass is half full" person! I personally think that while dual 3.0 GHz would've been wonderful, you've got to admit that dual 2.5 GHz is very, very good. AMD, AFAIK, is only at 2.4 GHz, so we're faster than some PC processors. I only hope that Apple doesn't fall from its great high on this update.... WWDC better be really, really good, or we're going to see some awful repercussions.

[Lanbrown]

The iMac was quoted without a timeframe, was with the same cooling issues as the powerbook. So don't expect a G5 iMac anytime soon as well.

I would disagree; it said "similar challenges." The iMac needs a facelift; the current form factor is 30 months old. They could change the form factor and put a G5 in it. Liquid cooling at 1.6 or 1.8 GHz would work. The bus also doesn't need to run at half clock speed. Doing that in a PB would be harder to do. The question is, has IBM fixed their yield problems?

[Spazmodius]

I have to wonder what will come next for the Powerbooks, iBooks, and iMacs. The 744x and 745x iterations of the G4 seem to be pretty well maxed-out, and I don't think we're going to see much above 1.5GHz.

Am I wrong, or did the Motorola/Freescale PPC roadmap indicate some time this year there would be perhaps another G4-like chip (including AltiVec and built around their new(er) e600 core), which supposedly will make it up to 2.0GHz, and support multithreading of some form or another. There may even be dual-core versions, I don't know.

Anyhoo, what's the likelihood that we'll see one of these puppies in the portables and iMac before a G5? Frankly, I'd be pretty happy with that. It's not like I really need 64-bit on an iBook, but I would like plenty of speed for 32 bit apps. What with the 750vx being DOA, I'm crossing my fingers we get at least another good boost in portable performance before 2004 comes to a close...then I'll be ready to buy.

The only way I can see that happening is with this e600-based chip. It's either that, or nothing, it appears, and nothing would be kinda bad, IMO.

[mikefl420]

Let's take a journey to the magical world of What-If?

What if on this stange planet in an alternate universe, rather than risking brain hemmorage over leaked photos and the like, Stevie J had learned the technique of disinformation. He says to VP of Such-n-Such, "Tell 'em we just can't do it. No 3.0GHz, no PB G5s... Mention production issues." Stevie J then turns away grinning and releasing a hideous laugh as he rubs his claw-like hands together... Statement goes out, and of course the rumors boards are in a flurry- Apple users are infuriated! Steve lied! He promised something he couldn't deliver! (Regardless of the fact that the problem was more on the side of IBM- but hell, we'll blame him anyhow) Then at WWDC Stevie J takes his revenge... He releases the PM G5 2.8GHz immediately, he releases iMac G5 1.6 and 1.8GHz models, he then hideously laughs while announcing the PM G5 3.0GHz Dual shipping "Around September... About a year from when I said. <insert evil laugh>" And then he turns to the crowd, eyes aglow and snickers "...but you can wait till January for new PowerBooks you doubtful little idolitors! <evil laugh> Now go and spread rumor and innuendo, for waiting shall be you most torturesome punishment! Ha Ha Ha!"

My point being, what if it's all a ploy. Get some suit to look teary-eyed over not meing able to get to 3.0GHz and then stick it to em, but holding it in waiting til WWDC. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but anything is possible. Think Different.

[michaelal]

I know many of you were "disappointed" by today's announcement, but it amazes me how quickly you all forget where the Mac was less than a year ago. Last year at this time, the top-of-the-line shipping Mac was a DP 1.42GHz G4 with a 167MHz SHARED system bus! Today we have a DP 2.5 GHz G5 w/ dual 1.25 Frontside Busses, and liquid cooled to boot , and you guys are bitching?!?!? :rolleyes:

No wonder why PC users think we're a cult...

We were all hoping that Apple was changing with the G5 series and would get out of the dark ages. Its very disappointing that so little changed with this update even if the processor speed could only be bumped to 2.5 Gig. Its just too much money to throw at a machine when one was expecting more.

[Krrill]

I probably shouldn't be complaining... But looking at the prices, they didn't really go down, they went up. And for me and for a lot of us, it was the hopes of the prices going down that was a big deal. But now it costs more for a dual 2 with the upgrades I want, then it did before the update... All well, hope Apple gets on track with price difference...

[Lanbrown]

Steve should really not make claims he isn't sure can be made. 100 million downloads on iTunes; 3 GHz G5s in a year...heck, they didn't even release iTunes 4.6 when he said they would (they can't even get "today" right?!). :rolleyes:

Still, I'm excited about the liquid cooling technology on the new G5s and will have to read up on that. I'm just saying that you shouldn't promise people the Moon when your rocket ain't even close to being built yet.

That's life with technology. Many companies have promised a lot of things. Motorola has a history of being late with processors, IBM has had their issues as well, add Intel into it, as well as Sun, AMD and SGI. Processors are usually at the cutting edge; you have to expect problems here and there. Some companies have done better at 90-nm then others. Ti has some processors on 90-nm, the second generation is sampling now. They have their process down pat. It's not the same as what IBM is using though. IBM tried a few things at once, and when you do that and problems arise, what's the cause? It can be any of the new techniques you implemented. That's why the Power 5 is at 130-nm, tried and true process.

100 million downloads was a projection, no one can predict what consumer demand will be. The Mini sold better then Apple expected and thus had to hold off releasing it to the rest of the world. The iTunes giveaway was not as successful as they hoped, iTMS for the rest of the world was delayed. So what, things happen.

Even car manufacturers have delays, airlines do, mobile phone makers, carriers, the list goes on and on. Some companies do set an expectation and they do meet it, one software company did that. Every year a new release. Unfortunately when it was released it was so buggy that it took three months before its really useable. I would rather have a delayed product then deal with problems because they wanted to meet a deadline.

[Trimix]

Yes, but we can still (realistically) hope for a G5 iMac.

Steve loves triumphant, major iMac revisions... it'll be a great show. :D

Agreed, a 1.6 G5 iMac (headless), cubeshaped to mark the anniversary which passed unnoticed would be superb, and what speaks against it ???

[whenpaulsparks]

thank god. i am sick of hearing crap about G5 powerbooks. you powerbook g5 trolls need to listen to this -- THERE WILL NOT BE A G5 POWERBOOK THIS YEAR. jesus. its getting annoying.

but due to the stars aligning for the iMac, its either going to be G5, or an updated G4 that is changed somehow, because of the jump to PowerMac 8,1 in the property file. but an iMac G5 is FAR more likely (and possible) than a powerbook g5. i dont even think IBM designed the PowerPC 970 with laptops in mind. but since the 1.6 and pretty much the 1.8 is now "old" G5, it might find its way into the iMac.

[per4manz]

It is somewhat disappointing that the 3's aren't out. Overall, I do not care, as I am more than happy with my MDD 867 and couldn't move to the G5 if I wanted to right now anyways. However, I do have some "speculations":

1. There will be a g5 imac announced at WWDC. Hopefully headless and a hell of a lot cheaper than the one I have upstairs.

2. Is it possible that the rumored XStation or whatever it was called could be announced as well - running dual 3s or quad 2.5s?

3. Perhaps the 3s will be released in new Xserves first. I know that Apple updated these not too long ago, but they also pissed off a lot of people with fulfillment problems. Maybe this is their way of making up for it.

4. Given the announcement of AirTunes, I do believe the fabled "tablet" will arrive - perhaps not in the manner it has been typically envisioned (like a notebook) - rather as I wireless access system to control iTunes as well as do basic browsing and email. Or even just an embedded and flash-able version of a system with a really redesigned Apple Remote Desktop. It's also possible that these functions will be added to the iPod along with WiFi streaming. We already know that a 60 gigger is eminent. The tablet would also pave way for something like AirPort Express Extreme with video as well as audio capabilities.

We shall see.

[0 and A ai]

I love it when some one actually makes sense in these threads.

The iMac was significantly redesigned when it went from G3 to G4, I would expect a similar redesign moving to G5. The design with be predicated on keeping a 1.6GHz G5 chip cool. I think that the folks at Apple are up to the challenge. The PowerBook is much, much trickier because you are locked into the basic notebook form factor.

The g5 updated imac will be a redesign yes but in the same way the iMac was redesigned to iMac DV. In other words the redesigin will look different but won't be actually all that different. Of course all specualation.

[whenpaulsparks]

and a cube shape iMac would be disastrous. a headless iMac would be disastrous. if you want that, get a 1.6GHz G5 from ebay or something unopened. thats a boxy, headless 1.6GHz G5.

[alexf]

So this proves that they are not the same machines that were sitting around. Clearly, if it went from the PCI-X to PCI and 8 RAM slots to 4, the Dual 1.8 has a different motherboard.
As for the processor, some people are claiming it is the same old chip but according to this (http://a1696.g.akamai.net/7/1696/51/36beef813bd8fe/www.apple.com/powermac/pdf/PowerMacG5_TO_06092004.pdf ) they are using 90nm technology. So it seems there are 970fx chips throughout the line.
As for the video cards, until something faster is actually availible for Mac they would be stupid to put the 9800XT standard in the G5, how then would they make money on BTO upgrades (not to mention the number of people who would "downgrade" to the 9600XT to save $300 off the price).

If this is true then I stand corrected. However, it would be hard not to admit that these upgrades are a disappointment, especially since they are overpriced.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I thought the 1.8 came preloaded with 160GB HD. Now it says it has 80GB, add $90 for 160!

WTF!

And I was under the impression that this whole thing was now gonna be sold for the price of the 1.6.

[anthonymoody]

The bad news about this speed bump (to 2.5 * 2) is that we now have to wait a year (most likely) to get beyond 3Ghz. IOW we now know the next revision: to dual 3Ghz. That's likely in say 6 months. Then another 6 months or so to something beyond 3. So a year in total.

I guess they might overshoot and get beyond 3 in the next rev but I wouldnt count on it.

TM

[nacl99]

My point being, what if it's all a ploy. Get some suit to look teary-eyed over not meing able to get to 3.0GHz and then stick it to em, but holding it in waiting til WWDC. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but anything is possible. Think Different.

I don't think giant mutli billion dollar companies do that kind of thing, even apple.

[Lanbrown]

I see your point, but there's a difference between me saying my "goal" is to visit every ballpark by next year and me missing that goal, and Steve Jobs, head of a Apple, saying his "goal" is to reach 3.0 GHz by next year and Apple falling very short of that goal.

His words ought to mean more and be weighed much more carefully, considering his position. And it's not just one missed goal he's had recently, either...

Companies mention "goals" all of the time, like sales, revenue, etc. Some meet them, some beat them and others miss them. You even have some companies restating earnings for three or four years ago.

[jiggie2g]

Where can you get this "similar PC" at the half or even the same cost? People keep saying that. I want to see one!


Well Dude u can get a Dell 8300 fully loaded for $1999

Specs:
Windows XP Professional
Pentium 4 3.4Ghz
512 Dual Channel DDR 3200
160GB SATA at 7200rpm
48x CD-R/RW + DL(Dual Layer)DVD+R/RW at 12X(not 8X that is actually getting old now)
10/100/1000 Gigabit Ethernet
ATI Radeon 9800Pro 128MB
Sound Blaster Audigity 2
Wireless 802.11 b/g built in
Microsoft Works 2004 and Money
2yr Warranty

and Finally FREE 17in LCD Monitor ... Beat that Steve'O... LOL

P.S. to that Person who said the PC does not have a 64Bit chip they do it's called the Athlon 64/FX by AMD and Clock 4 Clock is better then the G5.

[Sun Baked]

thank god. i am sick of hearing crap about G5 powerbooks. you powerbook g5 trolls need to listen to this -- THERE WILL NOT BE A G5 POWERBOOK THIS YEAR. jesus. its getting annoying.You have to admit, as a group, they're as hopeful as those waiting for the next Apple PDA. :p

[Trimix]

and a cube shape iMac would be disastrous. a headless iMac would be disastrous. if you want that, get a 1.6GHz G5 from ebay or something unopened. thats a boxy, headless 1.6GHz G5.

why ? what is the difference between the iMac on my desk (15incher) and a little sexy cube with a wireless 15inch display that also serves as a tablet ?
I mean not technologically but consumer-perception-wise ?

[Lanbrown]

Before a G5 powerbook? Just does not seem right.

Let's see, iMac sales are down, PB sales are good. What needs a shot in the arm? If they wait to release a G5 iMac until they can ship a G5 PB, they are really going to lose a lot of sales.

[gloftis]

We were all hoping that Apple was changing with the G5 series and would get out of the dark ages. Its very disappointing that so little changed with this update even if the processor speed could only be bumped to 2.5 Gig. Its just too much money to throw at a machine when one was expecting more.

Are you a WINDOZE user pretending to use Macs?

Dual processors with dual, parallel front-end buses vs a shared bus and software compensation. Mac wins.

The first viable consumer line liquid cooling system. Mac.

Replacing SGI and high-end non-linear video editing systems at a fraction the cost? Mac (By the way, G5 and the Apple Pro editing series are tearing the guts out of the post-production business)

The largest share of new UNIX-based sales? Mac.

Ghz is a convenient measure, but not necesarily the best.. It's a lot like automobiles, where horsepower is prized, but torque is what gets you up to speed.

[jragosta]

[QUOTE=jiggie2g]Well Dude u can get a Dell 8300 fully loaded for $1999

Specs:
Windows XP Professional
Pentium 4 3.4Ghz
512 Dual Channel DDR 3200
160GB SATA at 7200rpm
48x CD-R/RW + DL(Dual Layer)DVD+R/RW at 12X(not 8X that is actually getting old now)
10/100/1000 Gigabit Ethernet
ATI Radeon 9800Pro 128MB
Sound Blaster Audigity 2
Wireless 802.11 b/g built in
Microsoft Works 2004 and Money
2yr Warranty

and Finally FREE 17in LCD Monitor ... Beat that Steve'O... LOL

P.S. to that Person who said the PC does not have a 64Bit chip they do it's called the Athlon 64/FX by AMD and Clock 4 Clock is better then the G5.[/QUOTE

Except for one minor problem - this isn't comparable to the high end G5s by any stretch of the imagination.

Dual 64 bit 2.5 GHz processors destroy a single P4 3.4.
Dual 1.25 GHz memory bus is way faster than the Dell
Maximum memory capacity of 8 GB vs something like 2 GB
Mac OS X vs Windows XP? No comparison.

If you want a cheap machine, go ahead and buy one. But don't delude yourself into thinking that your Yugo is the same as a BMW just because it has 4 doors and 4 wheels.

[alexf]

I thought the 1.8 came preloaded with 160GB HD. Now it says it has 80GB, add $90 for 160!

WTF!

And I was under the impression that this whole thing was now gonna be sold for the price of the 1.6.

I agree: I think everyone was expecting this, especially since the previous prices were set at the end of October.

[nmk]

All I can say is that it stinks! Once again, Apple is going to find itself getting to the 3GHz mark when Intel, AMD, and others are surpassing 4GHz or higher. I'm not saying the speed is bad, but Apple has been in this business for 20+ years now. You would think that they know what to say and what not to say. It would have been nice if they had decent prices on the models too. They are starting pretty high...

You know, it's comments like this that really irritate me. AMD is currently at 2.4 Ghz with the Athalon 64. Intel are are 3.4 with the P4 but they are dropping the architecture. Their future desktop processors will be Pentium M derivatives running under 3Ghz. Nobody is in a race to get the 4Ghz. Infact, Intel and AMD have now both dropped Ghz ratings for their processors. Intel is still showing the Ghz rating for P4's but, like I said, thats a dead architecture.

[pjkelnhofer]

Not too many happy yet!

Don't ever confuse the people who read these boards with the average customer of Apple. They don't and it is why they make money.

[jragosta]

I know many of you were "disappointed" by today's announcement, but it amazes me how quickly you all forget where the Mac was less than a year ago. Last year at this time, the top-of-the-line shipping Mac was a DP 1.42GHz G4 with a 167MHz SHARED system bus! Today we have a DP 2.5 GHz G5 w/ dual 1.25 Frontside Busses, and liquid cooled to boot , and you guys are bitching?!?!? :rolleyes:

No wonder why PC users think we're a cult...


Excellent point.

[jragosta]

Don't ever confuse the people who read these boards with the average customer of Apple. They don't and it is why they make money.

Yep.

For example, Apple's stock price is up today - while all whiny teenagers on this site are decrying Apple's impending demise.

[gloftis]

Well Dude u can get a Dell 8300 fully loaded for $1999

Specs:
Windows XP Professional
Pentium 4 3.4Ghz
512 Dual Channel DDR 3200
160GB SATA at 7200rpm
48x CD-R/RW + DL(Dual Layer)DVD+R/RW at 12X(not 8X that is actually getting old now)
10/100/1000 Gigabit Ethernet
ATI Radeon 9800Pro 128MB
Sound Blaster Audigity 2
Wireless 802.11 b/g built in
Microsoft Works 2004 and Money
2yr Warranty

and Finally FREE 17in LCD Monitor ... Beat that Steve'O... LOL

P.S. to that Person who said the PC does not have a 64Bit chip they do it's called the Athlon 64/FX by AMD and Clock 4 Clock is better then the G5.

So, I guess you are saying that there is a faster way to get from one BSD to the next.

You stiil would be running the virus known as windows. After using both platforms equally since 1989, I can say that I wouln't trade my tired old G3-450 for the next new WINTEL machine with a wall-sized LCD, because I never want to see that OS again.

[webplummer]

If I were Steve, walking on the stage at WWDC, I'd say this:

"Last year, I predicted that the G5 will run at 3ghz.

Earlier this month, we released a new, totally improved 2.5ghz G5 PowerMac with liquid cooling.

Today, I'm here to tell you that our OS developers have filled the gap where we've had difficulty scaling up on the hardware side. OS X Tiger will run the new 2.5 ghz G5 at speeds comparable to a 3.0ghz G5 running Panther."

This, of course, would necessitate a 20% or so increase in speed as a result of loading up Tiger. But, I'm sure there are tweaks Apple can do for its latest system that will really blow its balls off. The speed gain may not be as great in lesser machines, but still noticeable.

[Lanbrown]

Yeah, I know that they want you to upgrade and they want to make money, but, I think you're missing the point...

Are you sure you're not missing the point? Apple puts more memory in them, Apple needs to charge more, and people will buy fewer machines because they can't afford them. If they buy a machine with less memory today for less money, they can upgrade tomorrow, using memory sold by Apple or third-party. Less memory for less money is better. More memory for the same money is better though.

[csimmons]

We were all hoping that Apple was changing with the G5 series and would get out of the dark ages. Its very disappointing that so little changed with this update even if the processor speed could only be bumped to 2.5 Gig. Its just too much money to throw at a machine when one was expecting more.

A 25% increase in speed in less than a year (if it actually ships in July) for a machine that is already one of the fastest personal computers on the market is nothing to sneeze at, my friend. The Pentium 4 has only seen a 6% increase in speed so far (3.2 to 3.4 GHz), if I may remind you.

Stop being so fixated on the "3GHz" thing.

[alexf]

Yep.

For example, Apple's stock price is up today - while all whiny teenagers on this site are decrying Apple's impending demise.

I don't think it's correct to call people complaining about this measly upgrade whiny teenagers

I seriously doubt that anyone familiar with Apple's release history who has been anticipating this upgrade since the beginning of the year could not be surprised - if not disappointed - by this upgrade.

[Ensoniq]

It's true that everyone will "do the math" their own way to decide if the new PowerMac lineup is an upgrade or downgrade...but here is how I see it.

Yesterday, $1799 got you a single processor 1.6 GHz/PCI machine.
Today, $1999 gets you a dual processor 1.8 GHz/PCI-X machine.

* $200 more for TWO faster processors, but you give up PCI-X.
* $100 upgrades you to a 160 GB Hard Drive, $75 to 512 MB RAM.
* For $2175, you get what cost $2499 minus PCI-X. ($325 savings.)

Yesterday, $2499 got you a dual processor 1.8 GHz/PCI-X machine.
Today, $2499 gets you a dual processor 2.0 GHz/PCI-X machine.

* $50 upgrades you to 9600XT video, $100 to 160 MB Hard Drive.
* For $2650, you get what cost you $3000 yesterday. ($350 savings.)

Yesterday, $3000 got you a dual processor 2.0 GHz/PCI-X machine.
Today, $3000 gets you a dual processor 2.5 GHz/PCI-X machine.

* Same price as yesterday, with a 25% speed increase per processor.

It looks like an upgrade to me. YES, I completely agree that this upgrade should have come in January/February, with the promised 3 GHz updates at WWDC. But unfortunately, that is not going to happen now. Neither IBM nor Steve "lied", it was simply an "act of god" that prevented the transition to 90nm from going as planned. I bet we see 3 GHz before year end though.

Everyone whining about the 9800 XT not being standard should recognize that the damn card eats up an extra PCI slot. That is not AT ALL something Apple should include standard. Apple could have given the Dual 1.8 512 MB standard. Apple could have made 160 GB on the Dual 1.8 and 250 GB on the Dual 2.0/2.5 standard. Apple could have made the 9600XT standard across the board. BUT they didn't...probably to keep distinction between the 3 models.

Like it or not, it works. Many people will buy the new 2.0 because they feel that the "downgrade" to non-PCI-X and the 4 GB "limit" is a problem. For most people though, buying the low end machine, they'd rather pay $1999 for a great Dual 1.8 machine than the $2500 it cost yesterday. They won't be considering it a "downgrade".

In January/February, these specs would have been perfect. In June, the RAM/HD/Video does come into question. When 3 GHz comes along, let's hope Apple fixes these "limitations". But for today, this is still a solid, if completely overdue, upgrade.

[pjkelnhofer]

Well Dude u can get a Dell 8300 fully loaded for $1999

Specs:
Windows XP Professional
Pentium 4 3.4Ghz
512 Dual Channel DDR 3200
160GB SATA at 7200rpm
48x CD-R/RW + DL(Dual Layer)DVD+R/RW at 12X(not 8X that is actually getting old now)
10/100/1000 Gigabit Ethernet
ATI Radeon 9800Pro 128MB
Sound Blaster Audigity 2
Wireless 802.11 b/g built in
Microsoft Works 2004 and Money
2yr Warranty

and Finally FREE 17in LCD Monitor ... Beat that Steve'O... LOL

Wow, it looks like crap and is in reality probably still slower than the Daul 1.8 GHz G5 for a lot of applications. Oh yeah, does it run OS X? Does it run FCP?
Than it is useless to a lot of video professionals.

P.S. to that Person who said the PC does not have a 64Bit chip they do it's called the Athlon 64/FX by AMD and Clock 4 Clock is better then the G5.

And currently tops out at 2.4GHz, slower than the new G5.

[csimmons]

With the rest of the computer industry trying to take the emphasis OFF of clock speed, it's ironic that we Mac users are still deeply stuck in that land.

Funny.

[iriejedi]

ATI Radeon 9800XT/pro/special whatever is the best mac card on market

ATI - replied that there is no x800 for mac 'announced' so it may be a while...

dang it - I guess might as well get the upgrade from apple.

[blakespot]

Don't know if someone already said it but...
Alright, I'm just as shocked as all of you are. But here's the deal: OS X Tiger will probably make the G5s twice as fast as they are now in Photoshop and Lightwave type deals.

How would that be achieved in an OS upgrade?



blakespot

[dr.Zoidberg]

i understand what Apple has done here, the DP1.8 is cheaper, its better than the SP1.6, but they dropped some stuff, less HD space, Less RAM, BUT we get another PROCESSOR, so instead of 1 we get two...so when you compare it to the old 1.6 it is a good deal better, afterall, Dual Processors is REALLY what is important, is it not? Plus, we can all go and get BETTER HD's and Cheaper RAM elsewhere (at least in theory). The 1.8's and 2.0's dont seem to need the new cooling device, as it isnt in there, so thats interesting....on a complaining note....the BTO's wont let you have 2x160 or 2x80, just 2x250 in the HD section......thats kind of annoying.
Still, the DP 1.8 is a good price, and i dont need, or shouldnt need for a long long time MORE than 4GB of Ram anyway......Maxing out credit card soon.....

[dopefiend]

And currently tops out at 2.4GHz, slower than the new G5.

Only until the 4th Quarter of this year, when the AMD Athlon 64 FX-55 is released at 2.6GHz.

[Wonder Boy]

First, if you "make a promise and fail" you didn't lie, because you didn't know you were going to fail. Therefore, Steve isn't a liar. Second, Steve wasn't the one who "did't [sic] follow through". IBM didn't. But they didn't lie either. They thought they would have 3Ghz by now, but it turns out that shrinking your chip feature size by over 30% really is as hard as it seems (wow, who would've thought). So, chill out. Before you run your mouth off, stop and think about who is responsible for what.

ok, i admit it, i got a bit excited and some of my anger was pointed at the wrong guy. i should be mad at ibm too, its not all steves/apples fault. but damnit, i think i have the right to be upset. i was promised 3ghz and they didnt come through. if i wasnt lied to, what would you call? im not being a jerk, im just curious. :o

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Should I get. . .

$1,399.00 12-inch G4 Powerbook
12.1-inch TFT Display
1024x768 resolution
1.33GHz PowerPC G4
512K L2 cache
256MB DDR333 SDRAM
60GB Ultra ATA/100
NVIDIA GeForce FX
Go5200 (64MB DDR)
Full size keyboard
10/100BASE-T Ethernet
FireWire 400
AirPort Extreme built-in
Mini-DVI out


$1,469.00 Dual 1.25GHz PowerPC G4
2MB L3 cache/processor
256MB DDR333 SDRAM
80GB Ultra ATA drive
Combo Drive
ATI Radeon 9000 Pro
Mac OS 9 boot supported


or


$1,799.00 1.8GHz PowerPC G5
900MHz frontside bus/processor
512K L2 cache/processor
256MB DDR400 SDRAM
Expandable to 4GB SDRAM
80GB Serial ATA
8x SuperDrive
Three PCI Slots
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
64MB DDR video memory
56K internal modem

(these are education price, by the way)

....I want to do video editing, and other normal college student stuff.

[jiggie2g]

[QUOTE=jiggie2g]Well Dude u can get a Dell 8300 fully loaded for $1999

Specs:
Windows XP Professional
Pentium 4 3.4Ghz
512 Dual Channel DDR 3200
160GB SATA at 7200rpm
48x CD-R/RW + DL(Dual Layer)DVD+R/RW at 12X(not 8X that is actually getting old now)
10/100/1000 Gigabit Ethernet
ATI Radeon 9800Pro 128MB
Sound Blaster Audigity 2
Wireless 802.11 b/g built in
Microsoft Works 2004 and Money
2yr Warranty

and Finally FREE 17in LCD Monitor ... Beat that Steve'O... LOL

P.S. to that Person who said the PC does not have a 64Bit chip they do it's called the Athlon 64/FX by AMD and Clock 4 Clock is better then the G5.[/QUOTE

Except for one minor problem - this isn't comparable to the high end G5s by any stretch of the imagination.

Dual 64 bit 2.5 GHz processors destroy a single P4 3.4.
Dual 1.25 GHz memory bus is way faster than the Dell
Maximum memory capacity of 8 GB vs something like 2 GB
Mac OS X vs Windows XP? No comparison.

If you want a cheap machine, go ahead and buy one. But don't delude yourself into thinking that your Yugo is the same as a BMW just because it has 4 doors and 4 wheels.


Well Dude i wasn't trying to compare that Dell to a High End G5 it was towards the low end G5 and being a better Value , Now if I wanted to Destroy Your Precious G5 2.5 and Spend 3K on a Comp(which is nuts 4 most people ) i'd just get a Spankin new

AMD 64 +3800/FX-53 939pin water cooled OC it to a +4200 how's about that (the 939pin use a 1600mhz Hyper-transport Bus so much for that)
ATI Radeon X800XT 256MB
twin 74GB 10,000rpm WD Raptors running RAID 0
Dual Channel DDR 400 (533mhz)
and a bunch of other Goodies for about or just over the 3K mark ..
GOTTA LOVE ....NEWEGG.COM

but thats if i wanted to Blow a Car Down Payment on a freakin machine that will be Old in less than a year.

[fpnc]

It's true that everyone will "do the math" their own way to decide if the new PowerMac lineup is an upgrade or downgrade...but here is how I see it.

Yesterday, $1799 got you a single processor 1.6 GHz/PCI machine.
Today, $1999 gets you a dual processor 1.8 GHz/PCI-X machine.
...

Actually, this is incorrect. The "new," dual 1.8 GHz model only has PCI, NOT PCI-X. So, you get the faster, dual processors, but you still are limited to PCI (64-bit, 33 MHz).

In any case, I think you are getting a faster SuperDrive (8x).

[badapple]

I HATE STEVE JOBS !!!!! WHAT A LIER !!!! HE PROMISED 3GHZ !!! HE PROMISED !!!!! THIS IS NO UPGRADE ! IT'S A JOKE !

sheesh, half the posts here looks like that. I thought this is a rumors site with knowledgable people, not a bitching site with cry babies.
if you dont like the new upgrade, dont buy a new G5. we understand that you are upset but bitching and moaning all over the board wont help.

[pjkelnhofer]

Only until the 4th Quarter of this year, when the AMD Athlon 64 FX-55 is released at 2.6GHz.

And, we don't know yet what IBM will be release in six months time. I doubt it will be a year again between updates.

[dopefiend]

And, we don't know yet what IBM will be release in six months time. I doubt it will be a year again between updates.

They said a while.

I'm willing to bet its going to be more than half a year since it took them a year to get +500mhz

[pjkelnhofer]

Well Dude i wasn't trying to compare that Dell to a High End G5 it was towards the low end G5 and being a better Value , Now if I wanted to Destroy Your Precious G5 2.5 and Spend 3K on a Comp(which is nuts 4 most people ) i'd just get a Spankin new

AMD 64 +3800/FX-53 939pin water cooled OC it to a +4200 how's about that (the 939pin use a 1600mhz Hyper-transport Bus so much for that)
ATI Radeon X800XT 256MB
twin 74GB 10,000rpm WD Raptors running RAID 0
Dual Channel DDR 400 (533mhz)
and a bunch of other Goodies for about or just over the 3K mark ..
GOTTA LOVE ....NEWEGG.COM

but thats if i wanted to Blow a Car Down Payment on a freakin machine that will be Old in less than a year.

And you would end up with a computer that is the same speed in the real world as the Dual 2.5GHz G5 that you could have spent the same money on, and it will still be running Windows!

[charlesc]

A couple observations.

When you remove the superdrive in the apple store it now only deducts $80, versus removing $180 on the Rev. A PM's.

In the G5 white paper it says '90nm', but I've yet to see any material stating specifically that the new 1.8 and 2.0 machines have the 90nm chip.

NO 3ghz soon for sure. Everyone that wants the 3ghz G5 needs to realize that the 970/970fx will not make it to 3ghz. It is going to take a new
cpu we have yet to see or hear anything about to make it up to 3ghz.

I'm guessing MWSF in Jan for 3ghz with a new cpu and architecture improvements.

[jiggie2g]

Wow, it looks like crap and is in reality probably still slower than the Daul 1.8 GHz G5 for a lot of applications. Oh yeah, does it run OS X? Does it run FCP?
Than it is useless to a lot of video professionals.

And currently tops out at 2.4GHz, slower than the new G5.

G5 Clock 4 Clock is slower than the Athlon 64/FX just look at the old benchmarks of FX-51's vs. 2.0 G5's not the rigged apple benchmarks.
Place like Mac World and Toms Hardware.

[macenforcer]

The only thing I can think of that would save face for Jobs, keep his promise, look cool, be worth waiting for, and make good use of the liquid cooling technology is a quad processor mac. That is something that I could see him anouncing. It would blow my mind. Ofcourse it will be $4000 also so it would put it right after the new 2.5ghz.

Lets wait and see.

[Sun Baked]

Actually, this is incorrect. The "new," dual 1.8 GHz model only has PCI, NOT PCI-X. So, you get the faster, dual processors, but you still are limited to PCI (64-bit, 33 MHz).

In any case, I think you are getting a faster SuperDrive (8x).The PCI vs. PCI-X debate is basically moot -- because BOTH machines require 3.3V cards.

And that matters if you have some old 5V PCI cards you were going to use. If you do there's a good chance you be buying new SCSI and audio cards along with your new G5 -- even if you get a PCI model.

The "major" difference is the 2 "pairs" of DIMMs -- so upgrade memory once and the start debating over which pairs of DIMMs you'll be putting in a box come the next memory upgrade.

---

Our venerable PowerMac G4 is the one that made use of the 5V PCI cards, and it's on closeout (soon to be gone as stock runs low.)

[Lanbrown]

With that said, the WWDC is coming. iMac G5s? Maybe. Tiger yea, perhaps it will blow us away. New Screens maybe. Wireless Firewire to surpass blue tooth? Maybe. We can speculate about many things.


A new iMac has to be there, sales are down. Speed bumps are doing nothing for sales. Tiger, they'll show it but won't be here until October, unless the core is the same, as Panther was a big jump. New screens are almost a must. Wireless FW will not surpass BT. Take some of the new phones coming out with a lot of storage, 512MB, 1GB and soon 2GB. Sire FW would transfer it extremely fast, but the battery life will be killed by it. BT was never designed for high BW applications; even the new version is only about three times faster.

Speculate we shall.

[titaniumducky]

They said a while.

I'm willing to bet its going to be more than half a year since it took them a year to get +500mhz

Don't you see? They've got the 90nm process working! Now that they've done the hard part climbing up the hill, it's really easy to continue on the path when going downhill.

I bet in 6 months we see 2.2, 2.5, 2.8 (or 3).

[machinehead]

The only thing I can think of that would save face for Jobs, keep his promise, look cool, be worth waiting for, and make good use of the liquid cooling technology is a quad processor mac. That is something that I could see him anouncing. It would blow my mind. Ofcourse it will be $4000 also so it would put it right after the new 2.5ghz.

Lets wait and see.

Currently the new 90-nm 2.5 GHz chip needs water cooling, whereas the old 130-nm 2.0 GHz chip doesn't.

So if Apple wanted to whip up a quad machine in a hurry, presumably it would be an air-cooled 4 x 2.0 Ghz. That's if there's room inside the existing G5 case, which I'm not so sure.

But as you say, it would cost at least $4,000. Let's say $4,495, just to be conservative. This is not a prediction. ;)

[nmk]

Here is what I think will happen during the rest of the year.

1)PB's will remain at 1.5 Ghz till about Nov/Dec. At this point they will hopefully get a upgrade to the new dual core 2Ghz G4 (if it actually gets manufactured on time)

2) PM's will get an upgrade to 2.8Ghz in Macworld Jan

3) iMacs will get the 1.5 Ghz G4 and say there till about Jan/Feb

4) iBooks and eBooks will get upgraded to 1.5 G4 once PB gets new processor (I know, it goes without saying)

[jiggie2g]

And you would end up with a computer that is the same speed in the real world as the Dual 2.5GHz G5 that you could have spent the same money on, and it will still be running Windows!


No i Would Have Spent the same money on a Computer atleast 33% faster , it's obvious u know dog Sh^t about hardware or else u would not make such a Rediculious claim. the only Thing BMW like about a Mac is OSX , external Designs and MOST OF ALL PRICE , APPLE is So Much like Sony ..a company i really hate.. They think if they just make it look pretty and slap thier name on it, they can charge an arm and leg. get away with selling an inferior product at a high cost (Clie/Vaio).

the only thing keeping Apple afloat is the GREAT iPod and iTunes , were it not for those 2 things u and i would be having this discussion over a PC and not a Mac. this is proof as thier market share had decreased every quater for the last few years and u can only shrink so much till ur finally gone.

back to the Hardware part how do u figure when every component in that machine i put togther is wayyyyyyy faser than anything u have in that over priced Cheese Grader

[alexf]

Should I get. . .

$1,399.00 12-inch G4 Powerbook
12.1-inch TFT Display
1024x768 resolution
1.33GHz PowerPC G4
512K L2 cache
256MB DDR333 SDRAM
60GB Ultra ATA/100
NVIDIA GeForce FX
Go5200 (64MB DDR)
Full size keyboard
10/100BASE-T Ethernet
FireWire 400
AirPort Extreme built-in
Mini-DVI out


$1,469.00 Dual 1.25GHz PowerPC G4
2MB L3 cache/processor
256MB DDR333 SDRAM
80GB Ultra ATA drive
Combo Drive
ATI Radeon 9000 Pro
Mac OS 9 boot supported


or


$1,799.00 1.8GHz PowerPC G5
900MHz frontside bus/processor
512K L2 cache/processor
256MB DDR400 SDRAM
Expandable to 4GB SDRAM
80GB Serial ATA
8x SuperDrive
Three PCI Slots
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
64MB DDR video memory
56K internal modem

(these are education price, by the way)

....I want to do video editing, and other normal college student stuff.

You are comparing apples to oranges (no pun intended).

If you need portable, of course go with the PowerBook. If you don't need the portability and you can afford the extra few hundred dollars (keep in mind that a monitor will cost you extra also), then by all means get the dual G5.

This thing will toast both the top of the line PBs and the G4 tower (the only reason to even consider that machine is if you have to boot up in OS 9). The speed difference between the G4 and even the low-end G5 processor is incredible; even more so when the former is in a laptop.

[seraphnyc]

How would that be achieved in an OS upgrade?



blakespot

The current OS is still a 32bit OS. The G5 can run 32bit applications at native clock speed, but when the OS or applications are written specifically to take advantage of being able to run at a true 64bits the speed itself does increase. We are not talking about using software to overclcok a CPU, but instead being able to fully take advantage of a 64bit chip.

Think of it in a similar [<---keyword ] way as the ATI 9800, it has a slower core clock speed than the 9600 but increased the pixel pipeline (along with other pieces like the wider bandwidth) and the drivers (system software) to achieve higher performance.

The same can be said for Intel boxes. What good is the chip if the OS is inefficiently running the processors?

You would see a performance improvement if OS X took full advantage of the 64bit chips inside of it. Hell, just updating from Jaguar to Panther gave the G4 a boost in performance. That alone is proof that an OS can improve performance, thus making things faster.

Oh, by the way here is a link to a chart with the video card specs so you can see what I am talking about in terms of being able to sacrifice core clock speed and make up for it in bus speeds and software. Also, yes the GPU is a CPU on a graphics card essentially [<--- keyword].

http://www.insidemacgames.com/reviews/view.php?ID=403

I know the analogy is a stretch but close enough

[whenpaulsparks]

i don't know if anyone posted this already, but iTunes 4.6 is out. the only new feature i can see is the AirTunes support, but i like having the newest version of everything. it might not be in software update yet, but its on www.itunes.com

[Trimix]

No i Would Have Spent the same money on a Computer atleast 33% faster , it's obvious u know dog Sh^t about hardware or else u would not make such a Rediculious claim. the only Thing BMW like about a Mac is OSX , external Designs and MOST OF ALL PRICE , APPLE is So Much like Sony ..a company i really hate.. They think if they just make it look pretty and slap thier name on it, they can charge an arm and leg. get away with selling an inferior product at a high cost (Clie/Vaio).

the only thing keeping Apple afloat is the GREAT iPod and iTunes , were it not for those 2 things u and i would be having this discussion over a PC and not a Mac. this is proof as thier market share had decreased every quater for the last few years and u can only shrink so much till ur finally gone.

back to the Hardware part how do u figure when every component in that machine i put togther is wayyyyyyy faser than anything u have in that over priced Cheese Grader

why do you take an interest in this forum ? why do you become personal ?
iTunes is not making enough money as was established long ago, so what are you going on about ?

[jessefoxperry]

i know everyones pretty pissed at apple for no 3ghz. but ya gotta admit - the new ipods will be sweet and make up for just crappy speed bumps in the imac/g5

[jessefoxperry]

i don't know if anyone posted this already, but iTunes 4.6 is out. the only new feature i can see is the AirTunes support, but i like having the newest version of everything. it might not be in software update yet, but its on www.itunes.com

oh get this, it also features "minor improvments" YES! God bless you apple!

[SiliconAddict]

Screw Apple. Simple as that. Screw them like a cheap $3 hooker. Last straw. I won't go Dell because of their craptacular track record but as soon as IBM rolls out the Pentium M Dothan, that was literally released a couple weeks ago, I'm getting an IBM. Should be out soon. I'm sick of the delay. No more freaking excuses. The M is at 90nm as of the latest version that is SHIPPING NOW. I don't care if its Apple fault or IBM's fault for this. The fact remains that the performance of the PowerBook sucks. Period. barefeats.com has shown that last gen of the M was anywhere from 30% to 40% faster then last falls PowerBook speed bump.
http://www.barefeats.com/image04/al15-pc2.gif

The latest speedbump, if you extract the speeds barefeats.com,
http://www.barefeats.com/image05/pb11-mp.gif
are reporting on the new 1.5Ghz systems, still shows that the M still is probably at least 15 to 20% faster with the "old" Pentium M. Interestingly enough barefeats quietly let that report fade; not mentioning it or following up since that initial report last fall. Wonder why. :rolleyes:

The PowerBook's performance sucks. Period. In most cases on the PC side the laptop has a system that is approximately equivalent to its desktop counterpart. Heck in some cases most of the high end laptops can outperform the low-end desktop segment. If Apple truly does introduce the G5 in the iMac we are going to see every desktop product across the board, with the possible exception of the eMac, kick the snot out of Apple's top of the line PowerBook and it appears that this will be the case for some time to come.

I'm going to end up paying more for an IBM then a PowerBook but you know I'm willing to do that simply because its going to be faster. Apple should be embarrassed for the slow POS they have on their hands. It's the most beautiful POS I've ever seen with wonderful features slapped in and around the POS to make it look like the most advanced laptop on the planet. But that doesn't change the fact that it's still a slow POS. Why anyone would go out and buy a new computer simply for a 5% performance increase from the previous version is beyond my comprehension. Maybe its because the PowerBooks are starving for a performance boost beyond the 5%-10% that the latest batch of PowerBooks provides over the last rev. Pathetic. Flame away but I'm not stating anything that isn't bluntly, hurtfully, true and if that makes you think I'm hacking on your purchase that you made I'm not. If it's good enough for you great. Find. I'm very happy for you but since I'm not loyal to any one platform, I don't give a **** about this Windows vs. Mac vs. Linux vs. Amiga vs. whatever debate, I look at all my options and in my opinion the PowerBook stinks like week old New York trash.

On the bright side I'll still be getting something from IBM but it just won't be a G5. :rolleyes:

[SiliconAddict]

i know everyones pretty pissed at apple for no 3ghz. but ya gotta admit - the new ipods will be sweet and make up for just crappy speed bumps in the imac/g5

Yep...oh wait a second. I would use a computer more then I would an iPod. I retract my statement. Nope.

[jayscheuerle]

For what most users do with their machines (and this includes graphic artists), the available G5s are plenty fast for anything they're ever going to do, provided they have enough RAM. Compelling reasons to upgrade are not going to have to do with speed. I'd much rather have Apple hold the speed and drop the price or maybe come up with something smarter, instead of just slightly faster. Airport Extreme seems smart. A liquid cooled dual 2.5gHz G5 is nice and fast, but so was the 2.0 g1 version, and the 1.8, etc...

Are there no more revolutions in the desktop/laptop world? Don't just tell me I can do something marginally (and possibly not even visibly) faster, show me something new I can do.

[seraphnyc]

Screw Apple. Simple as that. Screw them like a cheap $3 hooker. Last straw. I won't go Dell because of their craptacular track record but as soon as IBM rolls out the Pentium M Dothan, that was literally released a couple weeks ago, I'm getting an IBM. Should be out soon. I'm sick of the delay. No more freaking excuses. The M is at 90nm as of the latest version that is SHIPPING NOW. I don't care if its Apple fault or IBM's fault for this. The fact remains that the performance of the PowerBook sucks. Period. barefeats.com has shown that last gen of the M was anywhere from 30% to 40% faster then last falls PowerBook speed bump.
http://www.barefeats.com/image04/al15-pc2.gif

The latest speedbump, if you extract the speeds barefeats.com,
http://www.barefeats.com/image05/pb11-mp.gif
are reporting on the new 1.5Ghz systems, still shows that the M still is probably at least 15 to 20% faster with the "old" Pentium M. Interestingly enough barefeats quietly let that report fade; not mentioning it or following up since that initial report last fall. Wonder why. :rolleyes:

The PowerBook's performance suck. Period. In most cases on the PC side the laptop has a system that is approximately equivalent to its desktop counterpart. Heck in some cases most of the high end laptops can outperform the low-end desktop segment. If Apple truly does introduce the G5 in the iMac we are going to see every desktop product across the board, with the possible exception of the eMac, kick the snot out of Apple's top of the line PowerBook and it appears that this will be the case for some time to come.

I'm going to end up paying more for an IBM then a PowerBook but you know I'm willing to do that simply because its going to be faster. Apple should be embarrassed for the slow POS they have on their hands. It's the most beautiful POS I've ever seen with wonderful features slapped in and around the POS to make it look like the most advanced laptop on the planet. But that doesn't change the fact that it's still a slow POS. Why anyone would go out and buy a new computer simply for a 5% performance increase from the previous version is beyond my comprehension. Maybe its because the PowerBooks are starving for a performance boost beyond the 5%-10% that the latest batch of PowerBooks provides over the last rev. Pathetic. Flame away but I'm not stating anything that isn't bluntly, hurtfully, true and if that makes you think I'm hacking on your purchase that you made I'm not. If it's good enough for you great. Find. I'm very happy for you but since I'm not loyal to any one platform, I don't give a **** about this Windows vs. Mac vs. Linux vs. Amiga vs. whatever debate, I look at all my options and in my opinion the PowerBook stinks like week old New York trash.

On the bright side I'll still be getting something from IBM but it just won't be a G5. :rolleyes:

Are we a bit hostile or what? Not a single Apple noteboook has been touted as a Desktop Replacement, so I think you expectations for it are just a tad skewed. Do what you will, but are you not slightly worried that your emotional well being relies on a company releasing a G5 Powerbook? This isn't the apocolypse, calm down and breathe.

P.S. Nothing smells as bad as week old NYC trash, especially in the summer. Been there during the trash incident, the only thing worse than it hasn't come out yet.... longhorn.

[learthur]

There is a high probability with the current progression of technology that the LCD panels will have not just a firewire HUB, but a firewire CONNECTION. For those who haven't discovered HD video yet, the firewire cable is the coaxial TV cable of the future. Its advantages are:

1) High bandwidth video/audio
2) Ability to control video source from display device.
3) Easy to network your whole house
4) Firewire hubs are cheap.

In preparation for this....(it will be big when the pieces come together), you should call your local cable company and get a HD cable box with a firewire port, get a HD display like the possibly to be announced Apple displays with firewire video connectivity, and then get the soon to be developed Airport Express WITH VIDEO streaming. Now there is a home entertainment system. As you can see Jobs is going to do to home TV what he did to the home CD changer with the iPod.

[Trimix]

a lot of people are really angry about this - what i am wondering - for the high end applications, would the difference between 2.5 and 3.0 really be so extremely noticeable ? when for example ? i am ignorant, not arrogant, but isn't 2.5 already blistering fast ? (ducks behind his 867 mhz iMac)

[gothamac]

What can $3966 shipped get you?
MacMall
G5 2.0 Ghz
1GHz frontside bus/processor
512K L2 cache/processor
1.512 GB DDR400 SDRAM-Free Gig mail in $99
Expandable to 8GB SDRAM
160GB Serial ATA
8x SuperDrive
Three PCI-X Slots
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
64MB DDR video memory
56K internal modem
23" TFT active-matrix LCD supports 1920-by-1200-pixel resolution.

I paid over $4000 for a DP500 4 years ago.(It's still going strong)
You people need to stop complaining.

[alexf]

For what most users do with their machines (and this includes graphic artists), the available G5s are plenty fast for anything they're ever going to do, provided they have enough RAM. Compelling reasons to upgrade are not going to have to do with speed. I'd much rather have Apple hold the speed and drop the price or maybe come up with something smarter, instead of just slightly faster. Airport Extreme seems smart. A liquid cooled dual 2.5gHz G5 is nice and fast, but so was the 2.0 g1 version, and the 1.8, etc...

Yes, I agree completely; I think that the only people who really have use for even the lowest-end G5s are video professionals / people doing a lot of rendering-intensive tasks.

I myself am a graphic designer using a G5 1.6 GHz with 2 GB of memory and am very satisfied.

[a_iver]

Wait.... Did we just get new G4 powerbooks? It says so on Apple. I guess the people upset about the G5 PBs won't be so upset after all.

[zuggerat]

i wonder if this upgrade is front so when the 3ghz are released at the WWDC then there will be a huge influx of orders for the PM and upgrades to 3ghz... its possible and its very clever strategy for advertising, plus it instills a huge customer moral booster

[yuphorix]

It's interesting to see that apple still doesn't understand the power of having a midrange computer. $2k is hardly midrange and infact is considered high end for most PC's. It's odd, for years apple was the one that desputed the claims that "more Ghz" != Faster, and yet here they are at this very moment trying to push their processors to higher clock speeds, but at the same time they've managed to neglect the other components of the computer. Apple is so quick to adopt DP to give them a processor advantage, why not adopt RAID configuration for the HD to boost the read speed to allow video editors to access their data faster? And, if apple truly believes their machines are "professional", they should at the very least make 128mb video cards standard, along with 512mb of RAM (256mb of RAM is weak-sauce). At this point, it seems like most of the price goes towards the Dual processor system. Still, Apple downplaying the other components makes it very hard to recommend buying their desktops, unless OSX is necessary. Unless you need Final Cut Pro or Logic, this is usually not the case.

[PRØBE]

Hopefully this will stop the "Apple will release 3GHz machines next week" speculation

arn







That would presuppose that people actually read anything before they posted ;)

[jessefoxperry]

i wonder if this upgrade is front so when the 3ghz are released at the WWDC then there will be a huge influx of orders for the PM and upgrades to 3ghz... its possible and its very clever strategy for advertising, plus it instills a huge customer moral booster

true. very likely. and until Apple's own Director of Power Mac Product Marketing says otherwise, im going with you. like until said director says something along the lines of "we are not getting to 3GHz anytime soon" im gonna be expecting upgrades at WWDC

[nmk]

Screw Apple. Simple as that. Screw them like a cheap $3 hooker. Last straw. I won't go Dell because of their craptacular track record but as soon as IBM rolls out the Pentium M Dothan, that was literally released a couple weeks ago, I'm getting an IBM. Should be out soon. I'm sick of the delay. No more freaking excuses. The M is at 90nm as of the latest version that is SHIPPING NOW. I don't care if its Apple fault or IBM's fault for this. The fact remains that the performance of the PowerBook sucks. Period. barefeats.com has shown that last gen of the M was anywhere from 30% to 40% faster then last falls PowerBook speed bump.
http://www.barefeats.com/image04/al15-pc2.gif

The latest speedbump, if you extract the speeds barefeats.com,
http://www.barefeats.com/image05/pb11-mp.gif
are reporting on the new 1.5Ghz systems, still shows that the M still is probably at least 15 to 20% faster with the "old" Pentium M. Interestingly enough barefeats quietly let that report fade; not mentioning it or following up since that initial report last fall. Wonder why. :rolleyes:

The PowerBook's performance sucks. Period. In most cases on the PC side the laptop has a system that is approximately equivalent to its desktop counterpart. Heck in some cases most of the high end laptops can outperform the low-end desktop segment. If Apple truly does introduce the G5 in the iMac we are going to see every desktop product across the board, with the possible exception of the eMac, kick the snot out of Apple's top of the line PowerBook and it appears that this will be the case for some time to come.

I'm going to end up paying more for an IBM then a PowerBook but you know I'm willing to do that simply because its going to be faster. Apple should be embarrassed for the slow POS they have on their hands. It's the most beautiful POS I've ever seen with wonderful features slapped in and around the POS to make it look like the most advanced laptop on the planet. But that doesn't change the fact that it's still a slow POS. Why anyone would go out and buy a new computer simply for a 5% performance increase from the previous version is beyond my comprehension. Maybe its because the PowerBooks are starving for a performance boost beyond the 5%-10% that the latest batch of PowerBooks provides over the last rev. Pathetic. Flame away but I'm not stating anything that isn't bluntly, hurtfully, true and if that makes you think I'm hacking on your purchase that you made I'm not. If it's good enough for you great. Find. I'm very happy for you but since I'm not loyal to any one platform, I don't give a **** about this Windows vs. Mac vs. Linux vs. Amiga vs. whatever debate, I look at all my options and in my opinion the PowerBook stinks like week old New York trash.

On the bright side I'll still be getting something from IBM but it just won't be a G5. :rolleyes:

You seem to be getting highly emotional considering you're not loyal to any one platform. Anyway, the G5 PB was a dream and I've been saying it for a while. This statement from Apple should hardly come as a surprise. Or did you not notice that the heatsinks for the G5 are larger than a 12" PB. On the more positive front though, the new Centrino's are great processors. I'm sure you'll enjoy your new machine.

[gothamac]

"You seem to be getting highly emotional considering you're not loyal to any one platform. Anyway, the G5 PB was a dream and I've been saying it for a while. This statement from Apple should hardly come as a surprise. Or did you not notice that the heatsinks for the G5 are larger than a 12" PB. On the more positive front though, the new Centrino's are great processors. I'm sure you'll enjoy your new machine."

...and new Operating System.

[Rower_CPU]

Folks, insults, spam and off topic posts will be deleted immediately.

Keep the discussion on topic, please. :)

[NOV]

The funny thing is that for me -using my mac for audio recording purposes- it has become totally uninteresting to even think about switching.

The hardware may be more costly compared to building your own PeeCee but the Logic Pro-software is now so cheap compared to a Windows (=Steinberg) solution, that switching is out of the question.

I guess for video professionals this is also true (FCP)

[bishopduke]

!