iTunes 4.6 Now Available

[MacRumors]

iTunes 4.6 is now available as a free update via Software Update, or available for download (http://www.apple.com/itunes) from Apple.

iTunes 4.6 includes support for playing your music wirelessly using AirPort Express with AirTunes. It also includes a number of other minor enhancements.

This update was previously announced (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/06/20040607140609.shtml) by Steve Jobs at the D: All things Digital Convference earlier this week.

[itsa]

iTunes 4.6 is now available as a free update via Software Update, or available for download (http://www.apple.com/itunes) from Apple.



This update was previously announced (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/06/20040607140609.shtml) by Steve Jobs at the D: All things Digital Convference earlier this week.
Just got it.
I hope it fixes the skipping.

[NuPowerbook]

Yay, no reboot required :).

[henners]

[xy14]

I just wish that dial-up users could get like a 2MB version of the update.

[macridah]

first news today I didn't give a negative rating :D

[PDubNYC]

no problems at all, quick install. The only change I see is under the audio preferences, you can turn on AirTunes and it's volume settings

[nacl99]

Only change I can find.

Damnit, you beat me.

[King Cobra]

Let's see...I'm on 28.8K, and the package is a little over 10MB. Meh, I still like the 4MB iTunes updates from back in iTunes 2. Maybe that's it.

macridah, lol. :D

[virividox]

WOO HOO

now only if i could get my wireless network at home up i dont knwo if i shoudl even bother seeing as half the year im in school!!!

[xy14]

I guess I will just have to take out 10 hours to download it on my dial up connection.

I have a question for dial up users: how come it takes like 15 seconds before my modem starts dialing and my PeeCee takes only like 2 seconds?

I am talking about my iBook, specs below \/

[James Craner]

Hey well at least that's one promised delivery date that Apple has met this week. :)

[musicpyrite]

Yay!! Finally, I've been wating since yesterday for this.

No problem with iTunes on this computer with 4,100+ songs ( :D ).

[ingenious]

I am strongly considering getting an Airport Express now! It will greatly benefit my network, and I love that music streaming feature!

[MightyB]

can't get airport express until JULY anyway! :-(

[porky]

Wow, i'm only getting sick of all that beautifull software on my slooow Powerbook 667. I NEED A G5! (At a lower price for sure). Greetings from Belgium :D

[AirUncleP]

Cool. Now my 10 song iTunes library rocks even rock-y-er.

[nacl99]

Anyone want to start digging into this release to find anything about Itunes Europe? I imagine there is something useful in there.

[jeffgarden]

If you used hymn to remove DRM from songs from iTMS they will NOT PLAY in the new iTunes 4.6 !!!

[Wonder Boy]

cant wait to use the new airtunes feature...in late july.

[FelixDerKater]

Dialup users are not the target market of iTMS. It is not the fault of Apple that you have dialup. Simple economics say that you upgrade your connection and pay the difference for cost vs. speed.

[BKB]

Dialup users are not the target market of iTMS. It is not the fault of Apple that you have dialup. Simple economics say that you upgrade your connection and pay the difference for cost vs. speed.

In my experience, there is no such thing as simple economics. Economics is by definition the science of complicating the very simple. ;)

[cmoney]

If you used hymn to remove DRM from songs from iTMS they will NOT PLAY in the new iTunes 4.6 !!!

ah touche apple, touche. i guess it's back to my drm'd files then. itms has been losing its appeal lately though, with CDs at bestbuy going for $9.99 when released. plus i can get either frequent flier miles through continental or bestbuy's frequent buyer program miles when i buy through bestbuy.

[reckless_0001]

If you used hymn to remove DRM from songs from iTMS they will NOT PLAY in the new iTunes 4.6 !!!

Good for those tune pirates! J/K :rolleyes:

[wdlove]

Updates are always good. Thank you Apple for making it free. :)

[1macker1]

It's Apple base media player, how is this not Apple's fault. With that being said, I only pay 49.99 for a 3M DSL connection, and they have a DSL lite connection for like 24.99. I think it's time for eveyone to make the DSL jump, but do plenty of complaining, so we can get these prices down even more!
Dialup users are not the target market of iTMS. It is not the fault of Apple that you have dialup. Simple economics say that you upgrade your connection and pay the difference for cost vs. speed.

[King Cobra]

Dialup users are not the target market of iTMS. It is not the fault of Apple that you have dialup.
Sure isn't. I always blame my ISP for that, especially for the time in which they advertised high speed connections, even when I am too far away to get high-speed.

Oh, and one hour to download, not 15 as mentioned on the first page.

xy14, I advise you to post your concerns either in the Software forum, or over at thetechpub (www.thetechpub.com/phpBB2/) before this thread turns into a speed-post war like almost every damn thread in the News discussion section.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

If you used hymn to remove DRM from songs from iTMS they will NOT PLAY in the new iTunes 4.6 !!!

Sounds like a suiting punishment for a little breaking & entering... :D

[valve83]

I'm not sure if this is new, but it's listed that you can convert files from WMA to other formats now. Interesting...

[azdude]

Dialup users are not the target market of iTMS.

So what? iTMS is not the only thing i*TUNES* offers, and iTMS happens to have absolutely nothing to do with this upgrade--- it's an AirTunes enabler, which dialup users can use if they wish.

That said, dialup is indeed on its way out, and is entirely inadequate for modern internet usage, if you want to download software or multimedia. Jump on the broadbandwagon... you'll never go back. :D

Broadbandwagon is a registered trademark of azdude. (who's proud of accidentally coming up with it). :D :D

EDIT: Google tells me there is prior art for the term Broadbandwagon. Darn. I thought I was clever.

[jeffgarden]

I'm not sure if this is new, but it's listed that you can convert files from WMA to other formats now. Interesting...

yup, since 4.5 -- it's a cool feature, especially for previous Windows Media Player users (on Windows)

[entropy1980]

If you used hymn to remove DRM from songs from iTMS they will NOT PLAY in the new iTunes 4.6 !!!
Not true I am playing all of my Hymn cleaned tunes just fine...

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

I'm not sure if this is new, but it's listed that you can convert files from WMA to other formats now. Interesting...

From Apple's site (http://www.apple.com/itunes/import.html):
* Save to AAC from unprotected WMA (Windows only)

[nagromme]

It's fairly absurd to say that dialup is going away. It's cheaper, and a HUGE number of users don't wish to part with $100 to $200 more per year to do email faster. It's also the ONLY option for MANY locations. And lastly, it's the only universal option when traveling with a laptop--a fairly common device :)

iTMS IS targetted at modem users--at ALL users. It has Prefs features (preview downloading) meant just for modem users.

And on my modem, I can get a song in 3x the time it takes to play it. I can get multiple albums in a night, ready in the morning. It's perfectly usable, and I'm very pleased with spending $9/month instead of $35. Not to mention, no longer dealing with the awful service from my (former) broadband provider.

And 10 MB isn't THAT bad on modem anyway. I just downloaded a $200 MB add-on for Unreal Tournament 2004... so 10 MB is nothing :) Especially since Software Update resumes downloads.

[Sir_Giggles]

I don't know about you guys but since Monday morning, I have not been productive all this week with all the new announcements coming from Cupertino HQs. Apple HAS TO STOP releasing new, innovative new products for what seems every day!!

There goes today! :mad:

[jaredbbauer]

I love it when Apple cracks down on all of those little pirates out there!

GO APPLE GO!

[Parikh1234]

all these updates are so full of crap. They havent fixed the one thing that annoys so many people and thats the ability to have tracks play continously. Thumbs down to apple for this.

[King Cobra]

That said, dialup is indeed on its way out, and is entirely inadequate for modern internet usage, if you want to download software or multimedia. Jump on the broadbandwagon... you'll never go back. :D

Broadbandwagon is a registered trademark of azdude. (who's proud of accidentally coming up with it). :D :D

I can't already! (Pet peeve alert) I'm about 10 miles away from whatever it is the ethernet line is connected to, other than my computer, of course. And, for high speed, the maximum wire distance is 3 miles.

And dial-up users can do a lot of things that high-speed users can do, as well. Some of my more recent downloads - using 28.8K - include over 160MB of video and 55MB of audio (not music tracks)...both of which certainly took a while, but can be downloaded, for Pete's sake. If dial-up goes out, then so do about 25 million people in the U.S.A. alone that won't have any way to connect to the internet altogether. (Satellite is too expensive, right now, and I don't like the "interference" of latency.)

Wow, already we have dial-up discussions going about iTunes. Man, all the dial-up complaining should be saved for OS X updates, which are about 30 to 50MB.


From Apple's site (http://www.apple.com/itunes/import.html):
* Save to AAC from unprotected WMA (Windows only)
Nothing new. That's a 4.5 feature.

[AmigoMac]

I don't know about you guys but since Monday morning, I have not been productive all this week with all the new announcements coming from Cupertino HQs. Apple HAS TO STOP releasing new, innovative new products for what seems every day!!

There goes today! :mad:

GOD!!! This kind of sites drive me nuts... :D , everytime I want to update one my macs I come here and wait for news...and always end buying a new device... :D ...

PB 12" rev a, eMac 1GHZ, iBook 1 GHz, iSight, 2 iPods, AEBS... and the software list is even longer ;) , I wouldn't want to look forward to WWDC... but I can't :) :D

did I say that all happened within a year? :eek:

Back to topic: Have to wait until July to say something about iTunes 4.6 ... Airport express ... Here I go...

[freddiecable]

what? play contiuously...in what way does iTunes not play continuously!?

all these updates are so full of crap. They havent fixed the one thing that annoys so many people and thats the ability to have tracks play continously. Thumbs down to apple for this.

[Jeff Harrell]

Does anybody know whether this update fixes the problem in 4.5 whereby big music libraries couldn't be shared via Rendezvous? (Documented here: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93805)

Yes, I know, I could just download it and find out for myself, but what are Internet messages boards for if not to get others to be your guinea pigs?

[runeasgar]

boy boy boy =] complain complain complain.

Dial-up isn't on it's way out, but I certainly wouldn't be complaining about update size if I was on dial-up and was unhappy with a 10mb upgrade. That's the kind of reason that you:

a) get broadband and be able to download it quicker
b) grit your teeth if it isn't available in your area / you don't want to pay extra, find a good download manager that has resume and let it run until it's finished.

AirTunes is neat and all, it's not very conducive to hi-fi audio though. I have a sound system that runs off an external USB A/D converter that obviously can't be used with AirTunes. Apple keeps making all these great music formats and music add-ons, but when it comes to the actual transfer to sound, it seems like apple has lots of barriers to hi-fi. Ah well.. it's not that big a deal.

I want to see something mildly more proprietary (watches as he's mauled by open-source people). I want something that has multiple analog outputs that recieves a stream from coreaudio on my mac. Sorta like a connection middleman to allow hi-fi. However they want to do it, I want AirTunes in a 24-bit possibly 96kHz exportable format to RCA, TRS, etc.. connections.

Speakers ARE up for sale now btw.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3728014130

[krykert]

I really like the new iTunes! It's everything I expected and more. I can't wait to see what Apple has got up their sleeves for version 4.61!

[jsw]

"iTunes 4.6 includes support for playing your music wirelessly using AirPort Express with AirTunes. It also includes a number of other minor enhancements."

Anyone see the "other minor enhancements"? I haven't noticed any. The one thing I wanted (the ability to burn disk x of a multidisk burn in case one gets scratched, ruined, etc. - useful when burning audiobooks) isn't there (not that I expected it).

It's a nice update, but for the 8MB, I must be missing something besides the AirTunes enhancement.

[mainstreetmark]

what? play contiuously...in what way does iTunes not play continuously!?

He's talking about iTunes not being good at playing Pink Floyd albums or Grateful Dead albums. No real easy way to glue a group of songs together as one big continuous song, without actually merging the tracks together.

Crossfading is good, but it would be nice to be able to disable crossfading at the end/beginning of a song. I feedback'd that to apple a while back.

[sethwerkheiser]

I have dial-up at home, so doing much more than downloading music from iTunes is a chore. Usually if it's a big update I'll walk across the street and plug into my neighbors DSL line :)

Thankfully though I'm getting this download from work. Yee haw

[Bear]

...
Anyone see the "other minor enhancements"? I haven't noticed any. The one thing I wanted (the ability to burn disk x of a multidisk burn in case one gets scratched, ruined, etc. - usefule when burning audiobooks) isn't there (not that I expected it).
...Have you filed a suggestion suggestion/feedback (http://www.apple.com/feedback/itunes.html) with Apple?

The more people who suggest something, the more Apple will think about adding that feature. That presumes that the suggestion is a valid one. In my opinion your suggestion is valid.

[Jeff Harrell]

AirTunes is neat and all, it's not very conducive to hi-fi audio though.

I must be misunderstanding. AirTunes takes the decoded AAC audio, compresses it with Apple Lossless, and pipes it over AirPort to the Express unit, which decodes it and plays it digitally via the optical port.

What more are you hoping for, exactly?

[g4cubed]

I love it when Apple cracks down on all of those little pirates out there!

GO APPLE GO!
It's sad to say to you, but my my hymn tunes play with no problem. And what's wrong with being a little bit of a pirate!!! Arrrrh. I get what I can when I can.

[jsw]

Have you filed a suggestion suggestion/feedback (http://www.apple.com/feedback/itunes.html) with Apple?

The more people who suggest something, the more Apple will think about adding that feature. That presumes that the suggestion is a valid one. In my opinion your suggestion is valid.

I filed it. I understand that they can only implement a limited subset of the requested features, but I'd love to see this one. I think they're not doing it just so I'll get an iPod for travel instead of using my CD player. :)

[mainstreetmark]

It also includes a number of other minor enhancements

Anyone know where the release notes are, so I can read about these minor enhancements?

[tomf87]

If you used hymn to remove DRM from songs from iTMS they will NOT PLAY in the new iTunes 4.6 !!!

Mine play fine. However, I must note that I used playfair before it became hymn.

[whenpaulsparks]

I must be misunderstanding. AirTunes takes the decoded AAC audio, compresses it with Apple Lossless, and pipes it over AirPort to the Express unit, which decodes it and plays it digitally via the optical port.

What more are you hoping for, exactly?

why, uncompressed, 256 KHz, 64-bit, 360.1 surround (one speaker at every degree, plus the sub.) audio, of course! WHY HASN'T APPLE SUPPORTED THIS YET?!?! SCREW THEM!

lol

[entropy1980]

It's sad to say to you, but my my hymn tunes play with no problem. And what's wrong with being a little bit of a pirate!!! Arrrrh. I get what I can when I can.
My play fine too and It's not piracy I paid for them I just like to be DRM free for playing in ANY AAC capable player and to play under Linux. So i take offence at being called a pirate I am not pirating what i purchased!

[spankalee]

I can't wait till the AirPort Expresses are released and someone reverse engineers the protocol. Then we'll see software that behaves like an APE and we'll be able to send music all over the place, and not just form within iTunes.

I know sharing seems to take care of this, but you might want to set up one computer to grab a feed from another.

[runeasgar]

I must be misunderstanding. AirTunes takes the decoded AAC audio, compresses it with Apple Lossless, and pipes it over AirPort to the Express unit, which decodes it and plays it digitally via the optical port.

What more are you hoping for, exactly?

1) All I see on airtunes is a 1/8th out jack. That's it. No optical. Also, I would have to have an exceedingly nice A/D to have an optical port on it (which is practically top of the line for digital).
2) The express unit is not a high quality A/D converter and neither is the soundcard in your computer.
3) The airport express doesn't 'play' anything, it just sends out an analog signal that was derived from a 16-bit 48kHz sample.

My signal goes from my USB port to an m-audio audiophile usb powered A/D converter that outputs an analog signal from either TRS or RCA to my speakers. Tell me how I'm going to do that with AirTunes. Tell me how I'm even going to reproduce that quality on AirTunes, much less in the same way that I'm doing it now.

[musicpyrite]

(i think it may be time for a new "signature rule" for the boards...)

(by the way, I agree with the sig...just annoying)

I agree, I don't want to be living in Europe, or Australia, or where ever and see somthing like this. When it gets closer to the poll time I'll change my sig too. (I like the one I have now :D )


And to the people who are complaning about the 10 MB download: If you want to download all the latest updates, apps, ect. GET BROADBAND!!!

If you don't want to download *gasp* 10 MB, then don't.

[t300]

And lastly, it's the only universal option when traveling with a laptop--a fairly common device :)

I find WAY more ethernet connections than dialup and beyond that...

Ever heard of WiFi? It's going to take both of them down.

[jsw]

1) All I see on airtunes is a 1/8th out jack. That's it. No optical.

FYI, the jack also serves as an optical out.

[ingenious]

Good for those tune pirates! J/K :rolleyes:

I mean that seriously.

[g4cubed]

(i think it may be time for a new "signature rule" for the boards...)

(by the way, I agree with the sig...just annoying)

I just joined recently, but long time reader, and I have to agree with you. This is not a political area. I get bombarded with this crap everywhere else. I come here to hear and talk apple :D not politics. :mad:

[runeasgar]

I notice that now, thanks. However, it still doesn't solve the problem. =] Does me no good to have a high quality digital optical signal if it's coming from a 16-bit 48kHz sample. I might as well throw my $250 A/D converter in the trash and lose a huge portion of my clarity if I want to use AirTunes.

a note: previous mistake, my audiophile doesn't have TRS out, it has S/PDIF coax out. Forgot the TRS is only input (i never use it anyway).

[Athos]

Looks like I won't be able to use AirTunes with my iBook G3 (10.2.8) until I can afford to upgrade to Panther :(

In the Audio Panel of iTunes 4.6 Preferences:
"AirTunes support requires Mac OS X 10.3 or later"

But at the bottom of http://www.apple.com/airportexpress/airtunes.html it only says:
"AirTunes requires iTunes 4.6 or later."

[spankalee]

I notice that now, thanks. However, it still doesn't solve the problem. =] Does me no good to have a high quality digital optical signal if it's coming from a 16-bit 48kHz sample. I might as well throw my $250 A/D converter in the trash and lose a huge portion of my clarity if I want to use AirTunes.

Huh? Yes you wouldn't need the expensive A/D converter, but you would gain audio quality, not loose it, because even a good A/D is not as good as not A/D at all.

(and sorry for my new sig if you find it annoying, but i don't want to just see dumb bush sigs. there probably should be a rule)

[Stella]

Easy to say, but broadband is not available everywhere, dial-up is some people's ONLY choice.


Dialup users are not the target market of iTMS. It is not the fault of Apple that you have dialup. Simple economics say that you upgrade your connection and pay the difference for cost vs. speed.

[tomf87]

FYI, the jack also serves as an optical out.

Yeah, but I'm curious if this adapter they refer to converts the signal or what. It says it supports both digital and analog.

EDIT: Found that you can connect powered speakers to the jack, so it must be analog.

[ingenious]

I'm not sure if this is new, but it's listed that you can convert files from WMA to other formats now. Interesting...


That was new in iTunes 4.5. It's only nonDRM'd WMAs.

[macridah]

Yay, no reboot required :).

probably no one cares about this, but you don't have to reboot in XP, but you do in windows 2000. I know I know ... but I also install iTunes at work. My mac didn't require a reboot. :)

[Jeff Harrell]

1) All I see on airtunes is a 1/8th out jack. That's it. No optical.

It's a mini optical jack, as I'm sure you've been informed by about a hundred other people by now.

Tell me how I'm going to do that with AirTunes. Tell me how I'm even going to reproduce that quality on AirTunes, much less in the same way that I'm doing it now.

Well, I dunno, but you could probably start by being a little less of a spaz about the whole thing. And reading the specs before you climb on the internet to register your disgust throughout the world. That'd help too.

[voodoofish]

If you used hymn to remove DRM from songs from iTMS they will NOT PLAY in the new iTunes 4.6 !!!

Mine still work fine in iTunes 4.6, although I use the old version of PlayFair which works fine with FairPlay 2 after you've used Hymn with it once.

[tomf87]

Huh? Yes you wouldn't need the expensive A/D converter, but you would gain audio quality, not loose it, because even a good A/D is not as good as not A/D at all.

(and sorry for my new sig if you find it annoying, but i don't want to just see dumb bush sigs. there probably should be a rule)

I don't think you can gain quality that is already lost. Audio experts can flame me at will...

[MightyB]

I notice that now, thanks. However, it still doesn't solve the problem. =] Does me no good to have a high quality digital optical signal if it's coming from a 16-bit 48kHz sample. I might as well throw my $250 A/D converter in the trash and lose a huge portion of my clarity if I want to use AirTunes.

a note: previous mistake, my audiophile doesn't have TRS out, it has S/PDIF coax out. Forgot the TRS is only input (i never use it anyway).

You could actually rip your CD's in Apple's Lossless format.
Then you would lose NO quality from the actual recording on the CD going from iTunes, to Airport Express, to optical out, to optical in on your receiver.

[tomf87]

It's a mini optical jack, as I'm sure you've been informed by about a hundred other people by now.



Well, I dunno, but you could probably start by being a little less of a spaz about the whole thing. And reading the specs before you climb on the internet to register your disgust throughout the world. That'd help too.


It's not a digital jack because the jack supports standard powered speakers. It is similar to the headphones jack on the iPod or other portable device.

[BornAgainMac]

It's fairly absurd to say that dialup is going away. It's cheaper, and a HUGE number of users don't wish to part with $100 to $200 more per year to do email faster. It's also the ONLY option for MANY locations. And lastly, it's the only universal option when traveling with a laptop--a fairly common device :)


You can also get your Apple updates downloaded for free at your nearby Apple store. I saw someone getting their updates from the Genius Bar.

I am the exact opposite from you. I save hundreds of dollars a year by switching to Broadband Extreme. I watch movies and view music videos and download music all the time from iTunes. Since I don't pay for my video iChat sessions it had a huge effect on my long distance. I also download game demos and realized that the game wasn't any good so I saved money from buying the retail version. And I don't have to deal with the cost of 2 phone lines since I am online for hours on end.

It's nice there are plans available for people that just want email and for people that do tons of stuff online.

[arn]

ok, sigs have been edited.

Please do not use obnoxious sigs.... regardless of the message.... offending sigs will be edited, and repeat offenders will lose sigs altogether.

Do not respond to this thread. See http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74903

arn

[Jeff Harrell]

It's not a digital jack because the jack supports standard powered speakers. It is similar to the headphones jack on the iPod or other portable device.

Erm. No. The data sheet says "3.5mm mini-Audio jack for analog or optical digital sound."

It's not hard, guys. It's not a big mystery that y'all have to figure out by piecing together the clues. No secret decoder ring is required.

Just read, you know? Just read.

(The socket, incidentally, does not provide power.)

Edit: If you want to know more, google "miniplug." That's the name for 3.5 mm combo analog/optical audio connectors.

[voodoofish]

Does me no good to have a high quality digital optical signal if it's coming from a 16-bit 48kHz sample. I might as well throw my $250 A/D converter in the trash and lose a huge portion of my clarity if I want to use AirTunes.

You do realise that 16-bit 48kHz is higher quality than CDs? CDs are 16-bit 44kHz samples, if you want to get higher than 16-bit 48kHz you needs SACD, which will never be available to play on a computer due to Sony's fear of it being hacked like DVD-Videos, or DVD-Audio, which, as far as I'm aware, will only play at greater than DVD-Video fidelity (which is 16-bit 48kHz, usually compressed with lossy compression) on a computer if you have one of those Creative Audigy 2 soundcards for a windows PC.

So yeah I don't really understand what you are compaining about :confused:

[stevietheb]

There are three issues with iTunes that need resolving (in my opinion), does anyone know if any of these are fixed?

1) The continuous play thingee (sounds like that one isn't resolved)--really sucks when I'm listening to my boots...er..."field recordings."

2) The ability to create multiple libraries. I think this would be useful.

3) If I rip a CD in my account, and then switch over to my wife's account--the new song's wont show in the library (even though I have it set to share the same iTunes music folder). The files will be in the proper place and then I have to manually add them in--which isn't a big deal...but would be if I had more than two users.

Yea for Apple!!!

(and my $.02 is that it's fine to express whatever you like in your signature, provided it's not vulgar--so the "Anybody But Bush 2004" should be removed for being vulgar... :D )

[spankalee]

I don't think you can gain quality that is already lost. Audio experts can flame me at will...

Explain? Where did you loose the quality? I have no idea what you're talking about now.

[PlaceofDis]

anyone else now having problems with "Party Shuffle"? mine wont refresh or let me change to a different playlist. think deleting prefs would help? any advice? thanks

[Trekkie]

So what? iTMS is not the only thing i*TUNES* offers, and iTMS happens to have absolutely nothing to do with this upgrade--- it's an AirTunes enabler, which dialup users can use if they wish.

One could guess that when the AE ships you would have a CD that includes iTunes 4.6 with it saving the person from downloading 10MB over 10 hrs...

[runeasgar]

Spaz? I'm not spazzing, I've just wanted this technology for a long time and am dissapointed that it is completely antiwi-fi.

1) It's non-digital. I don't even know how they put that on the site. That's a powered-speaker/headphone jack. It probably even has power running over it.
2) Ripping all my cds in apple lossless does not change 1 important thing. When a song is stored digitally, it eventually has to be converted to analog for a speaker to use it. THAT is my concern. The airport express must be doing the converting, and I'm sorry, but that tiny little thing cannot have very good converters. Even if it is recieving an analog signal and directly outputting it to the jack, then you still have your computer doing the converting and at no point do you have the opportunity to create a better analog signal.

The point of the story is, whatever is going on with airport express, your analog signal is derived from a 16-bit 48kHz sample, AT BEST. For anyone who has studio grade loudspeakers or reference monitors, that's noticable. That's VERY noticable. It affects the clarity of your monitors enough to bother you alot if you are used to have a good A/D converter.

I just want to see this technology in a more proprietary format. I want to be able to do the A/D conversion myself, all I want airport express and airtunes to do is send the signal to my speakers. That's it. Right now it's doing conversions as well, and that's a bottleneck.

[ccuilla]

I am a little surprised that Apple did not add two features to iTunes, given the utility of this new AirTunes/AirportExpress combo:

1. Sleep timer
2. Alarm clock

I mean, think about it. Wouldn't it be cool to:

1. Stream the music to the bedroom, and turn on a sleep timer for (60 minutes or so), and/or:
2. Set the alarm clock to start a certain playlist, streaming to a certain AirportExpress (in the bedroom, of course) to go off at 6:30 AM.

This seems obvious. Maybe iTunes 4.7.


P.S. Yeah, I know AppleScript and all that.

[runeasgar]

You do realise that 16-bit 48kHz is higher quality than CDs? CDs are 16-bit 44kHz samples, if you want to get higher than 16-bit 48kHz you needs SACD, which will never be available to play on a computer due to Sony's fear of it being hacked like DVD-Videos, or DVD-Audio, which, as far as I'm aware, will only play at greater than DVD-Video fidelity (which is 16-bit 48kHz, usually compressed with lossy compression) on a computer if you have one of those Creative Audigy 2 soundcards for a windows PC.

So yeah I don't really understand what you are compaining about :confused:

upsampling voodoo, I don't have a fully analog system, therefore upsampling is good.

[legacyb4]

In that case, it sounds like you'd be better off not using iTunes and the whole compressed digital music thingy if that is your concern.

You remind me of a buddy of mine; loves to rag on anything to do with Apple's efforts to make digital music mainstream when his biggest beef really lies in the fact that he claims that MP3/AAC will never match up with "the real thing".

So while the rest of us ignorant peeps enjoy our wireless show, you can definitely continue enjoy your cabled world.

Cheers.

I notice that now, thanks. However, it still doesn't solve the problem. =] Does me no good to have a high quality digital optical signal if it's coming from a 16-bit 48kHz sample. I might as well throw my $250 A/D converter in the trash and lose a huge portion of my clarity if I want to use AirTunes.

a note: previous mistake, my audiophile doesn't have TRS out, it has S/PDIF coax out. Forgot the TRS is only input (i never use it anyway).

[evil_santa]

Does anybody know whether this update fixes the problem in 4.5 whereby big music libraries couldn't be shared via Rendezvous? (Documented here: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93805)

Yes, I know, I could just download it and find out for myself, but what are Internet messages boards for if not to get others to be your guinea pigs?

yep working with my 9973 tracks / 54gb

[voodoofish]

Spaz? I'm not spazzing, I've just wanted this technology for a long time and am dissapointed that it is completely antiwi-fi.

1) It's non-digital. I don't even know how they put that on the site. That's a powered-speaker/headphone jack. It probably even has power running over it.
2) Ripping all my cds in apple lossless does not change 1 important thing. When a song is stored digitally, it eventually has to be converted to analog for a speaker to use it. THAT is my concern. The airport express must be doing the converting, and I'm sorry, but that tiny little thing cannot have very good converters. Even if it is recieving an analog signal and directly outputting it to the jack, then you still have your computer doing the converting and at no point do you have the opportunity to create a better analog signal.

The point of the story is, whatever is going on with airport express, your analog signal is derived from a 16-bit 48kHz sample, AT BEST. For anyone who has studio grade loudspeakers or reference monitors, that's noticable. That's VERY noticable. It affects the clarity of your monitors enough to bother you alot if you are used to have a good A/D converter.

I just want to see this technology in a more proprietary format. I want to be able to do the A/D conversion myself, all I want airport express and airtunes to do is send the signal to my speakers. That's it. Right now it's doing conversions as well, and that's a bottleneck.


Nooo, the output supports both optical digital aswell as analogue, just like my 4 year old minidisc player has an input port which does the same, this technology is not exactly new.


If you use the digital optical out, the A/D conversion will be done by whatever you're plugging the optical TOCLINK into so, so the A/D converter can be as fancy as you want to give super duper sound quality.

CDs are 16-bit 44kHz, so you're not gonna get any better quality out of that from any system which sources it's audio from CDs.

[voodoofish]

upsampling voodoo, I don't have a fully analog system, therefore upsampling is good.

How can you add sound quality that isn't there in the first place?

That's like saying why buy a 4megapixel digital camera when you can just buy a 2megapixel one and up the resolution when you put the pics onto your computer.

[Porchland]

what? play contiuously...in what way does iTunes not play continuously!?

There's a slight gap between tracks on both iTunes and iPod.

[voodoofish]

I am a little surprised that Apple did not add two features to iTunes, given the utility of this new AirTunes/AirportExpress combo:

1. Sleep timer
2. Alarm clock

I mean, think about it. Wouldn't it be cool to:

1. Stream the music to the bedroom, and turn on a sleep timer for (60 minutes or so), and/or:
2. Set the alarm clock to start a certain playlist, streaming to a certain AirportExpress (in the bedroom, of course) to go off at 6:30 AM.

This seems obvious. Maybe iTunes 4.7.


P.S. Yeah, I know AppleScript and all that.

Yeah I know I need that so that I can replace my current CD player. You can do alarm with an iPod connected to speakers, but then that's not the point of AirTunes.

[keysersoze]

Nooo, the output supports both optical digital aswell as analogue

AMEN. Would every non-believer of the airport express NOT being optical-digital out, please READ THE APPLE SITE! It IS OPTICAL-DIGITAL (hopefully for the last time)!

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Nothing new. That's a 4.5 feature.

I know it's not a new feature, I was mearly answering valve83, who seemed a bit unsure if this was possible... :)

[runeasgar]

i repeat, upsampling.

And for whoever was arguing about me hating apple and their music attempts, wtf are you talking about?

I'm wild about iTunes, iTMS, apple lossless, AAC. don't brand me. This is like.. 1 of maybe 2 things in my history that i don't like that apple has done.

[voodoofish]

I know it's not a new feature, I was mearly answering valve83, who seemed a bit unsure if this was possible... :)

I don't know why this feature is windows only, I mean I don't use wma but sometimes you can get WMA streams of acoustics etc. from radio websites and it's annoying having to use a windows PC to get these onto iTunes. Maybe it's because Microsoft built Windows Media Player into windows so tightly iTunes can just access it to do the conversion, whereas it couldn't on a Mac?

[nacl99]

yep working with my 9973 tracks / 54gb
All Legal I'm sure...

[voodoofish]

i repeat, upsampling.

I still don't understand how that increases quality. That's like taking a JPG on your computer and increasing the resolution - it won't increase the quality. Same with taking a 128kpbs MP3 file and re-encoding it at 320kbps - it won't make it sound better, if anything it'll sound worse. You can't add detail that isn't there.


Please explain, I'm confused :confused:

[runeasgar]

Nooo, the output supports both optical digital aswell as analogue, just like my 4 year old minidisc player has an input port which does the same, this technology is not exactly new.


If you use the digital optical out, the A/D conversion will be done by whatever you're plugging the optical TOCLINK into so, so the A/D converter can be as fancy as you want to give super duper sound quality.

CDs are 16-bit 44kHz, so you're not gonna get any better quality out of that from any system which sources it's audio from CDs.

I'd have to have.. like.. a $1000 - 2000 converter minimum to process an optical digital out.

Also, in addition to my statement to whomever was branding me earlier, this technology will go hi-fi, it's just that apple will not do it. So I won't be enjoying my 'cabled' world for long.

YOU are just like the people who will, rather than taking note of anything that could even be construed as negative, will argue that everything is completely perfect. Apple is awesome, best computer company out there, no doubt about it. Lots of things are awesome. But if you want to sit in your little fairy world where everything is PERFECT, go right ahead.

Just because your standards are low don't mean that everyone's standards are low.

Also, if I'm going to keep hearing arguments about upsampling, why don't you go look it up before you keep arguing that sound can't be 'improved'.

[AmigoMac]

I still don't understand how that increases quality. That's like taking a JPG on your computer and increasing the resolution - it won't increase the quality. Same with taking a 128kpbs MP3 file and re-encoding it at 320kbps - it won't make it sound better, if anything it'll sound worse. You can't add detail that isn't there.


Please explain, I'm confused :confused:

It's more like taking a 16 bit pic and increasing it to 32 bit... (Depth I mean) and will do nothing... Hope to be right..

[nesbitt_a]

Is this new? Album art with visualisations?

-A.

[voodoofish]

I'd have to have.. like.. a $1000 - 2000 converter minimum to process an optical digital out.

Also, in addition to my statement to whomever was branding me earlier, this technology will go hi-fi, it's just that apple will not do it. So I won't be enjoying my 'cabled' world for long.

I don't think a $1000-2000 AirPort Express would have mass market appeal.

I also doubt that the new Hi-Fidelity (SACD, DVD-Audio) formats will replace CDs - I think that is far more likely to be done by digital music on a PC (ie. iPod, iTMS).

I'm not saying this to be argumentative, I'm just being realistic. I know loads of people with iPods and who use compressed music, but the only person I know with a Hi-Fidelity disc is me, who only bought it to see what it was like and won't bother again because it is such a hassle to get onto an iPod.

As far as I'm aware there is no way to rip these Hi-Fidelity discs in the same manner as an Audio CD - I had to do it by ripping the audio track from the DVD-Video section of the disc (which wasn't even encrypted btw). This means it would actually be impossible for Apple to offer a true Hi-Fidelity AirTunes.

[g4cubed]

My play fine too and It's not piracy I paid for them I just like to be DRM free for playing in ANY AAC capable player and to play under Linux. So i take offence at being called a pirate I am not pirating what i purchased!

I agree with you whole heartedly. If you purchase something, then you should have the right to do what you want with it, ie. backups, using other devises, etc., for personal use.

But when the man with the money says you can't, and you do...

Let's just call it swashbuckling :rolleyes:

[tiktokfx]

Runeasgar, if you're going to tell people to look up stuff they don't know about, I'd suggest you look up how AirPort Express works, because you still seem to be ignoring the now-often-repeated facts that:

A) the audio jack, while only one jack, supplies either analog or digital signals depending on the type of cable inserted. IE, if you output it to digital, the raw digital signal will come out and there will be absolutely no A/D-D/A conversion involved.

B) There is nothing remotely involved in this process, if using the digital output, that would disqualify it as being "hi-fidelity" as there is absolutely no changes to the raw computer-stored waveforms anywhere in the transmission.

C) I don't think I've ever heard anything as stupid as judging the quality of the D/A converter in the AirPort Express based on "look how small it is, it can't be good."

[tiktokfx]

Is this new? Album art with visualisations?

-A.

Nope

[voodoofish]

It's more like taking a 16 bit pic and increasing it to 32 bit... (Depth I mean) and will do nothing... Hope to be right..

Exactly, the real number of colours in the picture won't actually increase, just the number of colours saved in the file will. You can process the images or audio to try and improve it, but this is just the same as using an equaliser to try and make audio sound better. If you really want to do this, just do it with Hi-Fi equipment at the AirPort Express base station. This will result in sound quality no different than if you were playing the orginal CD in the Hi-Fi itself. I don't understand where you're coming from.

[voodoofish]

I agree with you whole heartedly. If you purchase something, then you should have the right to do what you want with it, ie. backups, using other devises, etc., for personal use.

But when the man with the money says you can't, and you do...

Let's just call it swashbuckling :rolleyes:

The record companies will love the AirPort Express; it will provide them with an excuse to decrease the number of burns permitted per track - why do you need to burn a CD to listen to it on your Hi-Fi when you can use an AirPort Express? That car thing Jobs hinted at will strengthen this argument because then you won't need a CD copy of your iTunes files for the car either.

[tomf87]

Erm. No. The data sheet says "3.5mm mini-Audio jack for analog or optical digital sound."

It's not hard, guys. It's not a big mystery that y'all have to figure out by piecing together the clues. No secret decoder ring is required.

Just read, you know? Just read.

(The socket, incidentally, does not provide power.)

Edit: If you want to know more, google "miniplug." That's the name for 3.5 mm combo analog/optical audio connectors.

Let me get this straight. I do not see anywhere on Apple's site where they state whether the signal output is digital or analog.

The reason why I ask is because in the connection kit, it includes a cable that goes from 3.5mm to RCA left and right as well as a cable that goes from 3.5mm to optical. Now, from my understanding RCA left and right and powered speakers are analog devices. So something along the line has to do some sort of conversion if that's the case, especially since Apple's site, as you quoted, says it does analog or digital.

Googling for miniplug has a site that says the 3.5mm digital cables are fiber optic. If you were to disassemble a line cord going to a set of powered speakers, it is not fiber optic, so speakers must use an analog signal.

Get that decoder ring out now.

[jsw]

Let me get this straight. I do not see anywhere on Apple's site where they state whether the signal output is digital or analog.

....

Get that decoder ring out now.

Gah!!! I'm not sure how anyone can make this more clear. I'll try, but I doubt it will work.

The port supplies BOTH a digital optical signal AND an analog electrical signal. It does NOT supply power. Depending on which cable you plug in, you access either the electrical signal OR the optical one. BOTH are present. If you look at it in the dark, you'll see a light.

[michaelrjohnson]

Gah!!! I'm not sure how anyone can make this more clear. I'll try, but I doubt it will work.

The port supplies BOTH a digital optical signal AND an analog electrical signal. It does NOT supply power. Depending on which cable you plug in, you access either the electrical signal OR the optical one. BOTH are present. If you look at it in the dark, you'll see a light.

(i don't mean to offend anyone)

after *READING* the thread before posting, i can appreciate your frustration on this issue. and for a vote of confirmation, that post IS perfectly clear.

(edit for emphasis)

[voodoofish]

Let me get this straight. I do not see anywhere on Apple's site where they state whether the signal output is digital or analog.

For those in doubt, please see -


http://www.apple.com/uk/airportexpress/specs.html

Here's the relevant quote in case you missed it -


AirPort Express Base Station Interfaces


10/100BASE-T Ethernet WAN port (RJ-45 connector) for connecting an ADSL or cable modem

3.5mm mini-Audio jack for analogue or optical digital sound

USB port for connecting a USB printer (3)

Apple power adaptor

[technocoy]

in the plug receptical there are two little rings that will come into contact with a regular audio miniplug... at the far end of the receptical is a optical end that transfers the digital signal if an optical plug is inserted. Christ people you are making this far to hard. the express, most likely in the same way that the minidisc players do, receives both the digital and analog info (or converts to analog once it's there. but the simple fact here is that you are getting both signal... if you want digital only, send it to the optical input of your sony stereo with nice D/A converters.. many of them have burr-brown. if not just plug it into the composite RCA on any other stereo or the same one. if you are playing converted MP3s and are talking about 1000.00 converters you are wacko anyway. MP3 is a lossy format. if you are talking about streaming uncompressed or very slightly compressed files then use the optical. holy CRAP, i hope this helps, if not i don't know what to do with it. if you need sound coming from a $2000.00 converter, you probably shouldn't be using iTunes for your music playing. and yes you can fit good converters into "something that small" i had a car stereo in the mid-nineties that had four burr-brown converters for the cd player... cost me 1200.00 smackers but that was 9 years ago..

[johnpg]

Let me get this straight. I do not see anywhere on Apple's site where they state whether the signal output is digital or analog.

The reason why I ask is because in the connection kit, it includes a cable that goes from 3.5mm to RCA left and right as well as a cable that goes from 3.5mm to optical. Now, from my understanding RCA left and right and powered speakers are analog devices. So something along the line has to do some sort of conversion if that's the case, especially since Apple's site, as you quoted, says it does analog or digital.

Googling for miniplug has a site that says the 3.5mm digital cables are fiber optic. If you were to disassemble a line cord going to a set of powered speakers, it is not fiber optic, so speakers must use an analog signal.

Get that decoder ring out now.


The jack is a hybrid jack. If you plug in an optical cable it will output digital data. If you plug in an analog cable it will do the D/A and output analog. What part of this don't you understand? If you use an optical cable and plug it into your receiver there will be no D/A conversion by ANYTHING except your receiver. The data your receiver receives from the Airport Express is exactly what was sent from iTunes.

John

[sockgap]

I'd have to have.. like.. a $1000 - 2000 converter minimum to process an optical digital out.

What are you talking about? Just about any modern surround sound receiver will accept an optical digital signal as an input.

[ifjake]

i get the port now. i was thinking that it was an analog output and whatever you plugged into it would convert it back into digital, and that seemed kinda dumb to me. but it all makes sense now. it is very cool.

on another note, since i'm home now my mac doesn't have internet access (i'm slowly chipping away at the wireless router idea for the household), so i've had to download the update disk images and transfer them over to my mac to upgrade. the process works fine, but is this going to do weird things to my Software Update?

[spankalee]

Spaz? I'm not spazzing, I've just wanted this technology for a long time and am dissapointed that it is completely antiwi-fi.

1) It's non-digital. I don't even know how they put that on the site. That's a powered-speaker/headphone jack. It probably even has power running over it.
2) Ripping all my cds in apple lossless does not change 1 important thing. When a song is stored digitally, it eventually has to be converted to analog for a speaker to use it. THAT is my concern. The airport express must be doing the converting, and I'm sorry, but that tiny little thing cannot have very good converters. Even if it is recieving an analog signal and directly outputting it to the jack, then you still have your computer doing the converting and at no point do you have the opportunity to create a better analog signal.

The point of the story is, whatever is going on with airport express, your analog signal is derived from a 16-bit 48kHz sample, AT BEST. For anyone who has studio grade loudspeakers or reference monitors, that's noticable. That's VERY noticable. It affects the clarity of your monitors enough to bother you alot if you are used to have a good A/D converter.

I just want to see this technology in a more proprietary format. I want to be able to do the A/D conversion myself, all I want airport express and airtunes to do is send the signal to my speakers. That's it. Right now it's doing conversions as well, and that's a bottleneck.

Ok, you're not spazzing, you're tripping.

1) It IS digital. The plug has both analog and optical, it depends of the cable you use.

2) All speakers are analog, unless you have some new alien digital speaker technology I don't know why you would complain about this. It's true of every low-fi and hi-fi stereo setup. What's the big deal?

AitportExpress is just decoding Apple lossless audio stream and then giving you either the analog or digital signal. Simple. If you want to use your super-duper hi-hi D/A converter prior to going into your supoer-duper hi-fi amp, then use it. If you have those alien technology digital speakers then go digital into them.

Also, QuickTime can support higher sample rates and bit depths than 16/48 so if you've got the high quality files use them.

Just please stop spewing very false information. If you actually knew anything about audio you wouldn't be so confused, so I must assume that you only subscribe to Stereophile or the pictures

[voodoofish]

on another note, since i'm home now my mac doesn't have internet access (i'm slowly chipping away at the wireless router idea for the household), so i've had to download the update disk images and transfer them over to my mac to upgrade. the process works fine, but is this going to do weird things to my Software Update?

no, before I've downloaded iTunes as a disk image and installed it because it wasn't showing up in Software Update and it didn't screw anything up :)

[runeasgar]

I don't think a $1000-2000 AirPort Express would have mass market appeal.

I also doubt that the new Hi-Fidelity (SACD, DVD-Audio) formats will replace CDs - I think that is far more likely to be done by digital music on a PC (ie. iPod, iTMS).

I'm not saying this to be argumentative, I'm just being realistic. I know loads of people with iPods and who use compressed music, but the only person I know with a Hi-Fidelity disc is me, who only bought it to see what it was like and won't bother again because it is such a hassle to get onto an iPod.

As far as I'm aware there is no way to rip these Hi-Fidelity discs in the same manner as an Audio CD - I had to do it by ripping the audio track from the DVD-Video section of the disc (which wasn't even encrypted btw). This means it would actually be impossible for Apple to offer a true Hi-Fidelity AirTunes.


O.. k.. how do people manage to respond to what I say without comprehending a word of what I said.

I'm not looking for true hi-fi.. I'm looking for $1250 2.1 hi-fi. That means I have a good A/D converter for listening (not recording) that does NOT have an optical in.

I'm talking CD quality upsampled by my A/D converter. For those of you arguing about upsampling, once again, look it up. Nabbing a 24-bit sample on a 16-bit encoded music file means that you are recovering a better sample of the original encoding, in a sense, a better representation of the 16-bit encoding than if you grabbed it using a 16-bit A/D converter.

I'm not talking about Airport Express having a $1000 - 2000 converter, I'm talking about it putting out the signal in another port that I can connect to a good $200 - 300 A/D converter. Middle ground. Not extreme low, not extreme high. Middle ground.

All I want is the opportunity to convert the signal myself. All I want AirTunes and Airport Express to do is get the signal to my converter wirelessly OR for it to allow me to convert the signal before it reaches the express. Basically like a hi-fi radio.

Anyway, look up upsampling before you argue about it, please read this before you respond, and no, I don't hate apple, I don't hate iTunes, I don't 'hate' anything, all I want is this technology compatible with hi-fi. I don't like hearing artifacts on my speakers. I don't have perfect speakers but they do not sound good with a bad signal. When I get my better speakers, the sound quality degradation from a 16-bit sample from a puny soundcard will be extremely audible and will essentially defeat the purpose of having a good sound system.

[voodoofish]

btw, has anyone else noticed how on the picture of the AirPort Extreme it says the ethernet port supports LAN, but in the specs it says it is only a WAN port? Whenever I've tried to plug my ethernet router into my LAN and then my LAN into my AirPort Extreme's LAN port, my Mac complains I need to connect it to my WAN port to access the internet. However, once I do this other computers on the LAN are no longer accessable through the AirPort Extreme base station. The solution is to plug the ethernet modem into the WAN port and the LAN into the LAN port, however it's annoying having to have my internet go through the AirPort before going to the LAN because it means I have to have my AirPort by my modem.


So anyways the point was just to wonder whether AirPort Express will act as a wireless access point for a LAN or not, because if it is only a WAN point it may well not do.

[cmoney]

I'm not looking for true hi-fi.. I'm looking for $1250 2.1 hi-fi. That means I have a good A/D converter for listening (not recording) that does NOT have an optical in.

...

All I want is the opportunity to convert the signal myself. All I want AirTunes and Airport Express to do is get the signal to my converter wirelessly OR for it to allow me to convert the signal before it reaches the express. Basically like a hi-fi radio.

Ok, so all you're saying is you want a Coax digital output? Or does your "A/D converter for listening (not recording) that does NOT have an optical in" have some other type of digital input?

[tiktokfx]

I mean this sincerely, I don't think I've ever witnessed someone be this oblivious to what people said.

[technocoy]

"I'm not looking for true hi-fi.. I'm looking for $1250 2.1 hi-fi. That means I have a good A/D converter for listening (not recording) that does NOT have an optical in."

you should have just said that in the first place! airTunes is not the thing for you then. but i also don't see anyone doing this, as the market is all moving to digital or optical digital input. unless a specialty group decides to make a wireless transmitter just for the analog market...

good luck with your system.

[voodoofish]

I'm not looking for true hi-fi.. I'm looking for $1250 2.1 hi-fi. That means I have a good A/D converter for listening (not recording) that does NOT have an optical in.


So what kinda input does your A/D converter have?

If it doesn't have a digital input, then I don't see how you plan to get super duper quality from it.

If it only has digital-coaxial input, then this is not an issue of quality but of cable compatablitiy; just buy a compatable A/D converter. I would guess you could buy a coaxial digital to optical digital converter - since it is just converting cable type and the digital signal will remain the same, i doubt this would result it loss of quality.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Is this new? Album art with visualisations?

-A.

It was there in 4.5, I don't know if it was added even earlier...

[gwangung]

Nabbing a 24-bit sample on a 16-bit encoded music file means that you are recovering a better sample of the original encoding, in a sense, a better representation of the 16-bit encoding than if you grabbed it using a 16-bit A/D converter.

Ummmm...how can you? IT'S ALREADY BEEN ENCODED--THE ORIGINAL HAS BEEN LOST. You don't get a better sample....you just sample what's already been coded...and you can't recover what's been lost.

I don't think the words you are using mean what you think they do....

[tny]

1) All I see on airtunes is a 1/8th out jack. That's it. No optical. Also, I would have to have an exceedingly nice A/D to have an optical port on it (which is practically top of the line for digital).
2) The express unit is not a high quality A/D converter and neither is the soundcard in your computer.
3) The airport express doesn't 'play' anything, it just sends out an analog signal that was derived from a 16-bit 48kHz sample.

My signal goes from my USB port to an m-audio audiophile usb powered A/D converter that outputs an analog signal from either TRS or RCA to my speakers. Tell me how I'm going to do that with AirTunes. Tell me how I'm even going to reproduce that quality on AirTunes, much less in the same way that I'm doing it now.
According to reports, it's not just an analog 1/8 in. jack - it's one of those mixed jacks that has the optical connection running through the center of the jack so you can do either optical or analog from the same jack. I've got the same thing on the back of my old MD player.

[windowsblowsass]

I can't already! (Pet peeve alert) I'm about 10 miles away from whatever it is the ethernet line is connected to, other than my computer, of course. And, for high speed, the maximum wire distance is 3 miles.

And dial-up users can do a lot of things that high-speed users can do, as well. Some of my more recent downloads - using 28.8K - include over 160MB of video and 55MB of audio (not music tracks)...both of which certainly took a while, but can be downloaded, for Pete's sake. If dial-up goes out, then so do about 25 million people in the U.S.A. alone that won't have any way to connect to the internet altogether. (Satellite is too expensive, right now, and I don't like the "interference" of latency.)

Wow, already we have dial-up discussions going about iTunes. Man, all the dial-up complaining should be saved for OS X updates, which are about 30 to 50MB.



Nothing new. That's a 4.5 feature.

have you considered upgrading to 56k? i know you cant get broadband but a faster modem will help their pretty chep nowadays

[xsnightclub]

Why is this thread seem to concentrating on the audio out jack on the airport express? This is about the iTunes update. Does anyone know about the other enhancements?

[windowsblowsass]

btw, has anyone else noticed how on the picture of the AirPort Extreme it says the ethernet port supports LAN, but in the specs it says it is only a WAN port? Whenever I've tried to plug my ethernet router into my LAN and then my LAN into my AirPort Extreme's LAN port, my Mac complains I need to connect it to my WAN port to access the internet. However, once I do this other computers on the LAN are no longer accessable through the AirPort Extreme base station. The solution is to plug the ethernet modem into the WAN port and the LAN into the LAN port, however it's annoying having to have my internet go through the AirPort before going to the LAN because it means I have to have my AirPort by my modem.


So anyways the point was just to wonder whether AirPort Express will act as a wireless access point for a LAN or not, because if it is only a WAN point it may well not do.
thats because your using two routers you need to either just use your basestation or if you need more ports get a hub

[Elektronkind]

I'd have to have.. like.. a $1000 - 2000 converter minimum to process an optical digital out.

Also, in addition to my statement to whomever was branding me earlier, this technology will go hi-fi, it's just that apple will not do it. So I won't be enjoying my 'cabled' world for long.

Just because your standards are low don't mean that everyone's standards are low.

Also, if I'm going to keep hearing arguments about upsampling, why don't you go look it up before you keep arguing that sound can't be 'improved'.

Jesus HP LaserJet Christ, my man. Holster that gun and cool down for a sec.

Do you really think Apple started designing the APExpress with the intent to satisfy every listener from those with $20 bookshelf speakers to those with an array of studio reference monitors in a tuned room?

From the tone and pervasivness of your arguing, even if everything were up to your spec, you would still be the one complain about spdif jitter and whatnot. At this rate, you should just put the damn original CD in your system and call it a day.

BTW, for someone so nazi and onry about audio quality, why in hell are you using an m-audio audiophile of all things?

/dale

[spankalee]

I have a good A/D converter for listening (not recording) that does NOT have an optical in.
Of course it doesn't have an optical in, it's a Analog to Digital converter. But why would you have a A/D in your setup, if the signal is already analog you don't want to mess it up by going digital and back to analog to your amp.


I'm talking CD quality upsampled by my A/D converter.


This is really nuts here. CD players don't have A/D converters, and you wouldn't want to run a CD player through one, just use the digital out on your CD player. Your hi-fi CD player does have a digital out right?


For those of you arguing about upsampling, once again, look it up. Nabbing a 24-bit sample on a 16-bit encoded music file means that you are recovering a better sample of the original encoding, in a sense, a better representation of the 16-bit encoding than if you grabbed it using a 16-bit A/D converter.


<cough> ************* <cough>

What are talking about? What nasty man played a trick on you by tell you this stuff?

I'm talking about it putting out the signal in another port that I can connect to a good $200 - 300 A/D converter.

Uh... You can apparently type, but can you read? At all???

Anyway, look up upsampling before you argue about it


Ok, well let me tell you something about upsampling. It has absolutely nothing to do with bit depths. It involves increasing the sampling rate (hence upsampling) via interpolation. This is typically done right before a D/A step, but is of dubious value because it's often done so that the D/A can skimp on the analog filter. (it's hard to make a filter that cuts out everythin above 22.1khz and nothing below, so they raise the sample rate so the nyquist freq. is much higher and then use a more gently sloped filter)

[SilentPanda]

Hmmm... now I'm sorta annoyed (although it *is* my fault). I was fairly against using Hymn as I had no need for it. From my understanding the first version of Hymn stripped the protection *and* your user name from the AAC files. The newest version does not strip your user name. I'm assuming that is what iTunes reads to find out if it's "hacked" or not. Not protected but has a user name? don't play it.

Why did I strip the protection from my AAC files you might ask? Please understand I know I don't have a right as far as the EULA to do as such. The reason I did this however was soley so that I could burn CD's via Toast with CD-Text. That's it. I couldn't get my protected music to burn in Toast and iTunes won't burn CD-Text to the CD. So I stripped all my songs of protection and burned some CD's. Just one CD a piece. Not anything even near excessive. Unfortunately now my songs won't play in iTunes 4.6 and sadly, only adds a feature that I have no intention of using. I guess I shoulda read the boards first. Now it looks like I'm going to have to use Quicktime/Audio Hi-Jack and strip them more. Apple did *not* do this to me and I understand that. I did this to myself. I just wish it didn't have to be this way... :(

[Elektronkind]

Also, if I'm going to keep hearing arguments about upsampling, why don't you go look it up before you keep arguing that sound can't be 'improved'.

Sounds like you need to be schooled seriously on this.

upsampling will not add any sort of quality. First, ask yourself where exacly the information would come from? you have a 44.1khz recording, and nothing will turn that 44.1khz wave form into something of better quality. period.

sampling is just that... how many times a second (measured in hertz) that a analog signal is "looked at" by a A/D convertor.

Now say a digital recording was recorded at a 44.1 sample rate. That recording now only has the information that the A/D collected from the analog signal at 44,100 times a second.

UPsampling that digital recording to, say, 96khz will not change a thing, quality-wise. There is no more information to fill that gap between 44.1khz and 96khz. You will still in the end have the equivalent to a 44.1khz recording. The only way to get a true 96khz recording in this case is to re-record the original analog audio source(s) at 96khz.

There is a saying in the audio world, something your self-proclaimed audiophilism seems to have missed - and that is you can't polish a turd.

/dale

[johnnyjibbs]

Scrolling through my library of 2421 songs is much quicker now (draws more frames). I like it. Maybe they have reprogrammed the way it accesses the database so that my PowerBook has to use the slow hard drive less to display my library list.

[Audiophile]

"I don't think you can gain quality that is already lost. Audio experts can flame me at will..."

Of course you can.
Audio Restoration doesn't always take the form of removing analogue damage. Interpolation is used to correct for analogue compression of old vinyl masters to restore the dynamic range.
Interpolation is also used to restore audio which has suffered damage from lossy compression.
This is particularly effective in removing layering artifacts.

However, this is obviously not practical for this discussion.

In this case, using a good tube amp *could* "gain quality" by colouring the sound to make it sound warmer and more musical.
Of course, this actually makes it technically lower-fidelity but unless you're mastering an album with the output, your ears will thank you.

"There is a saying in the audio world, something your self-proclaimed audiophilism seems to have missed - and that is you can't polish a turd."

And there's another one you obviously haven't heard of:
"If you want to polish a turd, you better freeze it first."
Yes, you can improve damaged audio whether its analogue compression/damage or digital. That's what audio restoration is all about.

[spankalee]

Why is this thread seem to concentrating on the audio out jack on the airport express? This is about the iTunes update. Does anyone know about the other enhancements?

I don't think there are many other enhancements other than AirTunes support.

One thing that disappoints me is that Apple is so close to giving me the multi-room audio system I want, but is missing the mark.

AirTunes shouldn't be just AirTunes, it should be StreamTunes or something. It should be a general protocol for sending lossless audio around a network, and actually I'm sure that's already what it is, but it's just not marketed as that now.

I'm working in an office right now where we all have Macs in two small rooms. We can all hear each others music, and when I tried to listen the the same internet radio station as the girl next to me the streams were very out of sync. If she could send her audio out to my computer and both were synced I'd be in heaven.

[Audiophile]

"How can you add sound quality that isn't there in the first place?

That's like saying why buy a 4megapixel digital camera when you can just buy a 2megapixel one and up the resolution when you put the pics onto your computer."

Yes, you CAN do that with pictures aswell!

Interpolation:
-calculation of the value of a function between the values already known

An oversimplified view of this:
You have a resolution which only shows two values in an angled line:
Value A: 1
Value B: 3
Now this line is aliased (as audio can be) because it takes a jump from 1 to 3. We can reasonably assume that an intermediary value would be "2" and thus your line would be 1,2,3 rather than just 1,3. You just effectively increased your resolution by 33%.
Or course, using complicated algorythms, this technique can works wonders.

Unfortunately, this is very much in the world of professional audio restoration at the moment.

[runeasgar]

1) I'm well aware of the fact that bit depth has nothing to do with upsampling, I was neither comparing the two or attempting to argue a similarity. I was arguing two seperate points.

2) I'm ignoring the comments from people who seem confused about what they are even talking about in the way that they speak it.

3) I never said I wanted airtunes to do what I'm talking about, I'm saying I want a product that does that. 'airtunes' just happens to be something apple put out that is very very very close to what I want, so based on that, I was representing an idea that could be based on airtunes technology.

4) I know exactly what upsampling does, I know exactly what bit depth and sample rate is. I know exactly the effect that plotting more points along a curve does, it adds a slight digital harshness in favor of a smoother wavelength. Hence, upsampling.

5) I'm running the sound through my laptop, I thought that was fairly obvious by this point. Duh? I'm using an audiophile because that is the cheapest decent A/D converter I can find. It's not a matter of wanting something better, I can't afford one better.

6) Once again, I'm playing music from my laptop. I'm not going to go through and respond to every innane argument about hi-fi audio vs. cd audio vs. compressed audio vs. whatever else. Half of you are making statements that are obviously unfounded.

For those of you who HAVE made logical arguments, I'm still soaking some of this up, but the above stands.

For those of you who are still apparently unaware of how the sound system works, here:

My Audiophile connects to coreaudio via a driver. It grabs a 24-bit 48kHz (up to 96kHz) sample of the digital information coreaudio sends it. This is the digital representation of a moment of the song (signal). It then converts this digital representation into an analog signal.

** STOP **
This is the part that I want sent wirelessly to my speakers. This OR for a lossless quality representation of the song to be output through a jack on the airport that could be then connected to a A/D that doesn't happen to have a digital optical in (you might take note, many A/D converters do not have optical digital in).
** OK, CONTINUE **

That analog signal is sent by two cables to my speakers which then turn the analog signal, derived from the 24-bit 48kHz (up to 96kHz) digital sample taken from coreaudio, which was recieved from itunes, which originated from an mp3 or aac file that was compressed from a cd that was created using 44kHz sampling into vibration, which creates sound.

[floatingspirit]

I guess I will just have to take out 10 hours to download it on my dial up connection.

I have a question for dial up users: how come it takes like 15 seconds before my modem starts dialing and my PeeCee takes only like 2 seconds?

I am talking about my iBook, specs below \/

Just wondering:
Why do such avid computer users still use dial up? And why download the updated iTunes because with dial up you can't take advantage of the wireless feature, can you?

[spankalee]

runeasgar, you're still way off on a few things here.

First no A/Ds have optical in, because optical carries a digital signal and A/Ds convert from analog to digital. Maybe you mean a D/A. You're Audiophile has both D/As and A/Ds.

I also think you're overestimating the quality of the audiophile. Regardless of the name those things aren't particularly high quality. They are the bottom of the line of M-Audio gear and often refered to as "audio piles" (I used to sell pro-audio equipment). The D/A in the AirPort express isn't going to be much different in quality, if at all.

Also you absolutely would not want to send an analog signal from your notebook to your stereo. Analog signals are much more susceptible to interference. The AirPort Express will exatcly duplicate the digital audio signal with no loss in quality whatsoever. It doesn't get any better than that.

If you don't want to use the AirPort Express D/A then go get a D/A with optical in, or get an optical to coax converter and use your audiophile. Or you can get a receiver with optical in, this will have the advantage that most will also decode surround sound.

So basically my answer is that Apple has released the device you want, but you just don't realize it yet. :D

[jtquick2001]

This is strange that they are making these anouncements now and not at the keynote for iTunes Eruope. I mean surely there has to be something music related coming other then that. What about another anouncement for the americans on that day. Its like there are taking the fun away for us yankees!

[runeasgar]

Sounds like you need to be schooled seriously on this.

upsampling will not add any sort of quality. First, ask yourself where exacly the information would come from? you have a 44.1khz recording, and nothing will turn that 44.1khz wave form into something of better quality. period.

sampling is just that... how many times a second (measured in hertz) that a analog signal is "looked at" by a A/D convertor.

Now say a digital recording was recorded at a 44.1 sample rate. That recording now only has the information that the A/D collected from the analog signal at 44,100 times a second.

UPsampling that digital recording to, say, 96khz will not change a thing, quality-wise. There is no more information to fill that gap between 44.1khz and 96khz. You will still in the end have the equivalent to a 44.1khz recording. The only way to get a true 96khz recording in this case is to re-record the original analog audio source(s) at 96khz.

There is a saying in the audio world, something your self-proclaimed audiophilism seems to have missed - and that is you can't polish a turd.

/dale

I figured I'd reply specifically to this one, since it's the most illogical argument of them all.. You'll find several posts since this one explaining a very simple upsampling concept. Ever heard of bicubic resampling? interpolation? upsampling?

Apparently not. When an A/D converter upsamples a digital sample of a moment of a song, it plots more points on the wavelength, hence producing a curve to the sound. If you want proof of this, find some good speakers and an A/D converter where you can set the sample rate. Change the sample rate to something higher than 44kHz for a song from a CD.

If you can't hear the difference, well, nothing I can do for you. The difference is there. Everything sounds smoother. Your 48kHz soundcard in your computer upsamples everything that comes out of it by 4kHz. So despite your apparent disbelief in upsampling, everything you listen to IS upsampled, and it DOES have a very LARGE impact on the sound, which is very noticable on good speakers/monitors.

That being said, I don't use 96kHz very often because of the digital harshness it adds. BUT, I do use it occasionally for badly compressed music, and I'd like to have that capability in wireless audio.

Another note: Regarding optical in for A/D converters. Did a little more research. A/D converters, especially non-onboard / good A/D converters USUALLY do not have optical in. They can, yes, but I'd have to specifically go looking for one.

THAT being said, I think the proprietary technology should be left up to the A/D converters, not the streaming technology. I don't want to have to choose an A/D converter to work specifically with my wireless technology. I'd rather have a signal source that supports more formats. Wouldn't you?

[jsw]

Just wondering:
Why do such avid computer users still use dial up? And why download the updated iTunes because with dial up you can't take advantage of the wireless feature, can you?

As has been said often enough in this thread alone, not everyone can get broadband - even if they want it and can afford it. Satellite, maybe, but that's quite pricey and not available to everyone either (i.e., apartment dwellers in non-broadband territory).

Also, the quality of your internet connection has absolutely nothing to do with your ability to use a wireless signal in your home.

[runeasgar]

Nah.. you've obviously never heard the audiophile. I agree, it's not that great. But it has the exact same D/A / A/D converters as the Delta 1010, and it sounds infinitely better (on speakers where you can notice it) than any average soundcard.

I've been referring to Analog to Digital AND Digital to Analog using the term A/D. A/D converter just means it converts between the two. We probably just have conflicting terminology.

I did not know that the analog signal would be more succeptable, but I figured it would be, that's why you'll notice the big giant OR that I'm not going to repeat for the 3rd time.

Also, the airport express is $130, I don't want to spend an additional $300 - whatever dollars getting ANOTHER converter to SPECIFICALLY work with the airport express. Optical in is used for speakers, very rarely is it used for A/D|D/A converters, and that's what apple intended it for, direct input to speakers.

The airport express doesn't take external or alternative A/D|D/A conversion into account anywhere. The fact that a very small number of good D/A converters accept digital in is more likely a coincidence than intentional.

[parenthesis]

I plugged my (brand new, just got it today *giddy*) iPod in, and got a message saying that my iPod software version was too old to use all of my songs.

This didn't happen before I upgraded to 4.6. Has anyone else had any problems?

[jsw]

I figured I'd reply specifically to this one, since it's the most illogical argument of them all.. You'll find several posts since this one explaining a very simple upsampling concept. ...

... When an A/D converter upsamples a digital sample of a moment of a song, it plots more points on the wavelength, hence producing a curve to the sound. If you want proof of this, find some good speakers and an A/D converter where you can set the sample rate. Change the sample rate to something higher than 44kHz for a song from a CD.


I'm going to stay out of the analog-to-digital/digital-to-analog/quality-of-equipment arguments. However, as runeasgar said, once something has been sampled at a certain rate, upsampling - and, in particular, upsampling with intelligent algorithms - can produce better sound, due to the fact that sound is easier to "guess" than, say, pictoral information. It's usually somewhat simple to determine what goes between the sampled audio bits - much easier than guessing what goes between sampled pixels. Is it guaranteed to be more accurate? No. But, the vast majority of the time, a well-upsampled audio stream will sound better and closer to the source sound than will the original stream. It isn't magic. And it doesn't work as well at the highest frequencies and - I think- at ones which are harmonics of the sampling rate. But it does produce better results. Ultimately, for sound, what sounds better is better.

[jaw04005]

Just wondering:
Why do such avid computer users still use dial up? And why download the updated iTunes because with dial up you can't take advantage of the wireless feature, can you?

Heh. Well because some avid computer users can't get DSL, Cable, and no wireless network is available in our area. The only alternative is Satellite, and that is very expensive. Yes, you will be able to take advantage of the wireless audio and file/printer sharing features of the Airport Express. You can have an 802.11g network running without the internet for file and printer sharing. You are not really using your base station to extent it was mean't to be used, but nevertheless it will work.

[CTerry]

I plugged my (brand new, just got it today *giddy*) iPod in, and got a message saying that my iPod software version was too old to use all of my songs.

This didn't happen before I upgraded to 4.6. Has anyone else had any problems?
Have you got the latest iPod Firmware update? It was only updated recently. If you've not got the latest firmware, and have Apple Lossless tracks they wont go on your iPod.

[Audiophile]

I plugged my (brand new, just got it today *giddy*) iPod in, and got a message saying that my iPod software version was too old to use all of my songs.

This didn't happen before I upgraded to 4.6. Has anyone else had any problems?

There was an iPod firmware update released when iTunes 4.5 came out. You need to flash your iPod.

[iChan]

Is this new? Album art with visualisations?

-A.

nah, it's been there for since version 3 or 4...

the version where they actually started letting you add album art

[spankalee]

If you can't hear the difference, well, nothing I can do for you. The difference is there. Everything sounds smoother. Your 48kHz soundcard in your computer upsamples everything that comes out of it by 4kHz.

That is very very untrue. A card that supports 48kHz will still play back 44.1kHz material at 44.1. It's actually up to the application to set the sample rate. A buggy app can sometimes play 44.1 audio through the card set at 48 and it will be noticeably sharp.


THAT being said, I think the proprietary technology should be left up to the A/D converters, not the streaming technology. I don't want to have to choose an A/D converter to work specifically with my wireless technology. I'd rather have a signal source that supports more formats. Wouldn't you?

There is nothing about AirPort Express that forces you to use a particular D/A converter. That why they have an optical out in the first place. Use it. It's not Apple's fault you don't have a D/A with optical. Optical is fairly common, especially with stereo equipment.

[iChan]

Scrolling through my library of 2421 songs is much quicker now (draws more frames). I like it. Maybe they have reprogrammed the way it accesses the database so that my PowerBook has to use the slow hard drive less to display my library list.

i agree with you... much quicker, smoother...

i also noticed that the library shows up quicker when you launch it...

i love the direction apple are going with all of their consumer apps for the past year... they have been adding feature upon feature and also making the programs faster!

i basically dreaded using mail a while back because it kept crashing on me, now it is a dream to use... also, iPhoto, i practically gave up on it just after I got my second digitcal camera and began using it a LOT... iPhoto slowed to a crawl, then i got iPhoto 4 and the dream has fully resumed...

it's amazing how much extra performance apple is able to squeeze out these apps with every update. just amazing! keep up the great work!

[runeasgar]

It's not Apple's fault you don't have a D/A with optical. Optical is fairly common, especially with stereo equipment.

Untrue. D/A optical in is not common for good D/A converters. As I said.. you find optical on crappy built-in D/A converters. They are built into a pre-fab stereo system, or directly into a speaker.

Regardless, you are talking about a lower-end system than I am. You are also talking about a very specific type system.

The majority of D/A converters you will find will not have an optical in. If you are looking at studio grade equipment, or even low end home recording equipment, or just audiophile-type equipment, you won't often find optical in.

Now.. did I hear something crazy about digital being perfect a ways back? I seem to recall someone talking about how could I hope for "better quality than digital" or something like that. Digital is.. without a doubt inferior to analog. The best digital equipment will not outdo the best analog equipment. I'm sorry.. but there is really nothing to argue about there. To get good analog quality out of digital would require a more dynamic method of storing information than binary, or a very very very large hard drive that is very fast and a perfect A/D converter.

[iChan]

Just wondering:
Why do such avid computer users still use dial up? And why download the updated iTunes because with dial up you can't take advantage of the wireless feature, can you?

wow, this comment is really out of touch.

a modem is for connecting to the internet at 56Kb per second. nothing more

ethernet is for connecting to the internet, really fast... AKA ADSL, CABLE, BROADBAND.

ethernet is also used to connect computers together to share files between 2 computer, and also for setting up a network.

ethernet (generally) comes in three flavours, 10Mb, 100Mb & 1000Mb

wireless does the same job as ethernet... but guess what? wirelessly!

it comes in (generally) two flavours, 802.11b (11Mb), & 802.11g (54Mb)

Apple's 54Mb system is called Airport Extreme

You need an airport extreme base station and an airport card. or you can bypass the base station and connect two computers together directly... just like ethernet!

How airtunes works is that is takes your airport card, in your computer and connects it directly to the new Airport Express product... it sends music wirelessly!!

Ergo, we come full circle. iTunes 4.6 connects to Airport Express wirelessly to send it music, Airport is just ethernet, in that it is used to set up a network, but without wires. however, it can also go online, just like dial-up. but seeing as the internet doesn't come into the equation WRT getting airtunes to work with Airport Express, we know that, YES, you CAN take advantage of the "wireless feature", which, in this case, you proabably mean Airtunes.

[runeasgar]

a postscript to that:

basically the wires or the wireless are just the method by which information is passed.

some things like routers have built in protocols that enable you to connect the internet to them, and then you connect your computer to the router and the router acts as the middleman between you and the internet.

so basically, wires or wireless are for sending information. whether that happens to be local networking (local file sharing, music sending, etc) or internet information (web sites, email, internet file sharing) has nothing to do with the wires or wireless technology.

on another side note, the 'internet' is just a really big network. in the most basic concepts, it's identical to a home network. there are some things that make it different though, so it's not exactly the same.

[centauratlas]

I used Hymn to try conversting a few iTMS songs to the unprotected format and it worked fine. I had been burning to disk and re-importing merely so that I would have a format to use on various other devices besides my 10 and 30GB iPods.

Anyway, I changed the email address I used for my Apple ID (a reasonably common thing I think) and the converted songs don't play.

iTunes says "This computer is not authorized to play this copy of <song name>". The song was originally purchased using the account "<account name>".

It isn't a big deal since I only tried it with a couple of songs, but something to be aware of for the future if you are relying on Hymn.

One strange thing is that about 100 of my songs in my "Purchased Music" folder are no longer there. They ARE in the library just not there. And that is the main reason I want a common format for songs - so if iTunes gets messed up or not supported at some point, I will still have my songs. (Just like HyperCard...Apple may very well phase something out without offering a path to convert. I want to be safe.).

[chewbaccapits]

itms has been losing its appeal lately though, with CDs at bestbuy going for $9.99 when released.

Uh...What are you talking about? I cannot find ANYWHERE where it states itunes has been losing its appeal....9.99 at BEST BUY is no big deal to me when every, I don't know, MORRISSEY album is still 16-17 dollars a piece yet at itms its always 9.99... :rolleyes:

[Jeff Harrell]

Okay, Runeasgar: this is completely out of control. You don't have a DA with an optical input? Fine. Get one. Or spend $60 and get an optical-to-coaxial converter. Or spend a few bucks more for one that goes from S/PDIF to AES if you prefer.

You want to upsample your music? Fine. Knock yourself out. But please, please, for the love of Christ and all that's holy, PLEASE understand that AirPort Express will not hinder you in any way.

How do you come out of your Audiophile? Obviously you go from the Audiophile to a set of speakers somehow, right? Are you taking the S/PDIF output to a D/A? FINE! Then you can do EXACTLY the same thing with an AirPort Express and a cheap optical-to-RCA S/PDIF converter.

I stand behind my comment from before: you're being an incredible spaz about this.

[PlaceofDis]

so does anyone have any idea why my party shuffle will no longer refresh nor will it let me change into a different playlist?

nevermind just got it to work after monkeying around with it for a while....

[advocate]

If you used hymn to remove DRM from songs from iTMS they will NOT PLAY in the new iTunes 4.6 !!! Thank you, Apple, for continuing to fight technology with technology rather than with lawyers. Your enlightened attitude is a shining light in the industry.

[maxtrax]

I notice that now, thanks. However, it still doesn't solve the problem. =] Does me no good to have a high quality digital optical signal if it's coming from a 16-bit 48kHz sample. I might as well throw my $250 A/D converter in the trash and lose a huge portion of my clarity if I want to use AirTunes.


First of all, CD's are 44.1k 16 bit, so what are you talking about? And AirTunes is for sending tunes OUT, and an A/D is for converting analog to digital, which is the opposite. And if you are talking about using your A/D to get into your computer for recording stuff and then complaining about AirTunes sending out a 48k 16 bit signal, does that mean every recording studio should throw out their super expensive converters and high bit rate recording gear because CDs are 44.1k and 16 bit!!??? Jesus...

So irrelevant... AirTunes is an awesome idea, and for the most part for sending out MP3s or AAC audio files around your house. 48k 16 bit has nothing to do with this.

[Elektronkind]

"How can you add sound quality that isn't there in the first place?

Interpolation:
-calculation of the value of a function between the values already known


<snip>

I *knew* you would pull the aliased audio card out.

Okay, this is my take on it - it's WORTHLESS. The whole point of high sample rates is to render the original analog signal as acurately as possible.

aliasing a 44.1khz file to 48khz is a MINIMAL improvement I would consider not worth my time.

aliasing to anything above that (88.1, 96) and you're doing more harm than good. You're then playing connect-the-dots with a blindfold on, I don't care what fancy alg you're using.

Think about it, if you take 44.1khz audio off a CD and alias it to 96khz, you're more than doubling the samples. This means over 50% of the samples in a file are now FAKE. INFERRED. NOT REAL.

The whole science behind audiophilism is reproducing the sound as ACCURATELY as possible, not going after the bigger numbers because you assume that means, in some way, "better".

/dale

[runeasgar]

Lol.. still amazes me how people read my first post and don't read anymore and then post like they know what they are talking about regarding something that has already been resolved 3 posts ago.. that's for you maxtrax.

Jeff: The first intelligent/useful comment I've heard this whole time. I like that idea.

[Parikh1234]

what? play contiuously...in what way does iTunes not play continuously!?

It doesnt play continous in the fact that if you have two songs that are mixed together there is a gap between them when itunes switches from one track to the next.

[runeasgar]

dear overreactive dale:

sampling is only 1 part of this argument, thank you.

please see the memo regarding BETTER converters and HIGHER bit depth.

also, there was another memo sent out a while ago stating that I rarely use 96kHz or other high sampling rates.

maybe you should update your mailing address so you'll start getting these memos before you make new comments?

no one but you is interested in bigger numbers. ideal sound doesn't involve numbers. in the meantime, when we don't have ideal sound, technology improves to create smart aliasing and those of us who don't have $40,000 analog systems who want good sound have to use the technology at hand.

so, taking that into consideration, why don't you make a more directed comment next time, instead of just randomly blabbing out loads of argumentative manure.

also, maybe you should address more than one point in a multi-point argument before you assure yourself that you are right.

[advocate]

My Audiophile connects to coreaudio via a driver. It grabs a 24-bit 48kHz (up to 96kHz) sample of the digital information coreaudio sends it. This is the digital representation of a moment of the song (signal). It then converts this digital representation into an analog signal.

** STOP **
This is the part that I want sent wirelessly to my speakers.

Okay, so what you want to do is push your super high quality analog audio through the air in analog form and receive it as analog audio on the other end.

In that case, I suggest you get one of these:
http://tinyurl.com/dqs0
and one of these:
http://tinyurl.com/35pag

Then you can stick the analog output of the second device into the analog input of your hideously expensive audio equipment. See, that does exactly what you asked for.

You know, it's simply amazing how far people will go in order to convince themselves that they are getting better music out than what went in.

[maxtrax]

Lol.. still amazes me how people read my first post and don't read anymore and then post like they know what they are talking about regarding something that has already been resolved 3 posts ago.. that's for you maxtrax.

Jeff: The first intelligent/useful comment I've heard this whole time. I like that idea.

True, I didn't read every post before I posted, sorry. But I still think all of this is irrelevant. And you say you are getting Mackie monitors, they are so damn hyped and inaccurate it is ridiculous, what do you use now?

I can't believe all this talk about upsampling. I use an Digi HD3 system with the 192 interface all the time, and I assure you I have never taken a 44.1 or 48k session and converted it upwards to 88.2 or 96k or for christ sake 192k. If you don't start out at those high bit rates it is all but useless to go there in my opinion. And when talking about simply listening to tunes in iTunes, I find it hard to believe your bottom of the line M-audio thingy is doing anything special...

Also most of todays decent hi fi receivers do indeed have optical in and that is the way to go, my Harman Kardon home stereo has quite a few of them actually...

Sorry, I just find this whole thread obnoxious and irrelevant.

[jsw]

So, um, anyway....

Has anyone yet found the "other enhancements" mentioned for iTunes 4.6? Just curious. Hate to get off of the sampling topic, and I'm sure we'll return to it, but I just wondered if some of the other changes have been noted yet.

[Powerbook G5]

Sure isn't. I always blame my ISP for that, especially for the time in which they advertised high speed connections, even when I am too far away to get high-speed.

Oh, and one hour to download, not 15 as mentioned on the first page.

xy14, I advise you to post your concerns either in the Software forum, or over at thetechpub (www.thetechpub.com/phpBB2/) before this thread turns into a speed-post war like almost every damn thread in the News discussion section.

This is enough to make me feel kind of bad that it only took me about 10 seconds to download iTunes 4.6...kind of...but not quite.

[runeasgar]

maxtrax

harmon-kardon (not even close to a respected stereo system) pre-fab stereo. I already addressed that in a previous post.

I've heard mackies. I've heard them alot. I've heard the HR824's alot. I'm buying these for personal enjoyment. For their price (well below that of genelecs and other speakers which everyone 'prefers') I believe they are worth it. THAT however is a subjective point and not suitable for argument. I'm simply stating that based on what I've heard (in both recording and listening). They are ridiculously accurate in my opinion, people just fail to realize something.

The main thing I see people do with mackies is overmix their low end because they aren't used to hearing bass that is so present that is sounds natural. They therefore don't pay attention to how present the low end is and they mix the low end too loud. With your average speakers, even with relatively expensive speakers ($200 or so), you are hearing just as much distortion off the low end as you are the actual sound. While I've heard a slight amount of distortion on the 824s.. I haven't heard monitors that compare. I find accurate sound to be more pleasing than warm genelecs or other brands that specifically color the sound.. If I had enough money I'd be spending money on much more expensive audiophile-type speakers. For now I'm going with mackies because they are so well worth the price.

Also, to the annoying sarcastic remark from advocate, you managed to (once again, and again, and again) ignore the OR there and the following post which illustrated that I wasn't aware of the significant degredation of analog signals over air; forgive me, I've never had interest in radio.

[nsb3000]

all these updates are so full of crap. They havent fixed the one thing that annoys so many people and thats the ability to have tracks play continously. Thumbs down to apple for this.

What are you talking about?

[runeasgar]

What are you talking about?

something about some gap between playing the songs. not sure if he's talking about when you burn CDs or the gap between changing tracks in itunes..

[swajames]

Runeasgar
Probably safe to assume that you're not in Apple's target demographic for AEBS. So don't buy one. I'm sure it's going to do just fine for most of us.

[JGowan]

Does anybody know whether this update fixes the problem in 4.5 whereby big music libraries couldn't be shared via Rendezvous?This is too funny. I haven't tried sharing between my Tower and PBook in months. My collection has grown considerably since the last time I shared. I tried sharing last night and couldn't figure out why it wouldn't work (I've got over 10,000 songs now)... I just updated both computers and YES, IT FIXES THE PROBLEM!

Funny thing is, I didn't want to take the time to update iTunes until I read the Apple page you linked to. Once I read it, I had to see! Thanks!

[TSEliotLives]

I find it hard to believe that runeasgar is SO committed to hi fidelity audio, all the while listening through what are really mid-fi M-Audio monitors with..gasp...a powered M-Audio sub. Sorry, kiddo, but I really think you're talking yourself in circles here. If you're going to be stressed about audio quality, be stressed about the things that really matter and are easily remedied...like what speakers you're using, what amp you're using to drive them (and, I don't think I'm alone when I say that if you're really an audiophile, you wouldn't be using powered monitors on a reference system...pull those M-Audio's apart and I'm sure you'll find the amp to be under-engineered and all of the drivers connected with 18-16 gauge zip cable...or worse). How come you're not arguing about the crossover design of those monitors, or the purity of the cable you're using to connect your speakers to your DA converter (for the last time, it's a cotton-picking DA converter. Using the wrong term is not acceptable in this)?

Totally off topic with the iTunes release, I know, but it can't handle it when "audiophiles" spout about things they may have only a partial grasp on...or don't really have much bearing on real-world listening.

Talk when you're not using mid-fi powered M-Audio monitors, or even those Mackie monitors which, truth be told, still aren't really worth the price of admission.

[maxtrax]

maxtrax

harmon-kardon (not even close to a respected stereo system) pre-fab stereo. I already addressed that in a previous post.

I've heard mackies. I've heard them alot. I've heard the HR824's alot. I'm buying these for personal enjoyment. For their price (well below that of genelecs and other speakers which everyone 'prefers') I believe they are worth it. THAT however is a subjective point and not suitable for argument. I'm simply stating that based on what I've heard (in both recording and listening). They are ridiculously accurate in my opinion, people just fail to realize something.

The main thing I see people do with mackies is overmix their low end because they aren't used to hearing bass that is so present that is sounds natural. They therefore don't pay attention to how present the low end is and they mix the low end too loud. With your average speakers, even with relatively expensive speakers ($200 or so), you are hearing just as much distortion off the low end as you are the actual sound. While I've heard a slight amount of distortion on the 824s.. I haven't heard monitors that compare. I find accurate sound to be more pleasing than warm genelecs or other brands that specifically color the sound.. If I had enough money I'd be spending money on much more expensive audiophile-type speakers. For now I'm going with mackies because they are so well worth the price.


I said Harman Kardon as just a normal average stereo receiver, although I know it is actually better than what most people use... I consider it just fine for average home listening. However, I don't quite understand your dissing HK, but you use an M-Audio device... but whatever. I am also quite sure that Apple intention with AirTunes is not for pro studio use, but for home consumer listening and convenience.

Seriously though, have you checked out KRK monitors. The V8's are so superior in my opinion to the Mackies. I even prefer the Kroks wit the sub to the Mackies. We have the HR824s btw, and I can honestly say they do not sound accurate at all to me. I find them unbelievably hard to listen to, let alone mix on. But this subject is so subjective and there is no right or wrong so...

[JGowan]

all these updates are so full of crap. They havent fixed the one thing that annoys so many people and thats the ability to have tracks play continously. Thumbs down to apple for this.Well, I don't think they've not done it out of spite. Obviously, it's a technical issue and everyone should chill until they fix it. They already give you the JOIN TRACKS feature. That should be enough. If you're going to be using it on your ipod, then just join 3-4 songs at a time. You'll only be interrupted a couple of times and then, only for a second.

[wolfywolfbits]

Runeasgar, first just to clarify... You have a good quality external D/A so you want to have a digital input into it (without having gone through any intermediate D/A which would be of interior quality). And the problem with the AP-Express is that it does support digital out, but uses the wrong plug/format (i.e. optical out) for your equipment. Correct?

Which brings me to my questions, what type of digital input does your D/A take then?

That's a problem at the moment, there seems to be a few audio digital plugs/formats battling it out. Optical seems to be pretty popular with home stereo equipment these days, coaxial more popular with pro equipment.
However, I haven't seen anyone claim (but haven't looked) that one digital plug/format is better than another. So you'll just have to wait for the industry to consolidate i guess :-)

How about getting an optical to coaxial (if that's what your D/A uses) converter? I think I've seen those around??

[mattmack]

Yay!! Finally, I've been wating since yesterday for this.

No problem with iTunes on this computer with 4,100+ songs ( :D ).
OMG I love your sig site
:D

[g4cubed]

The record companies will love the AirPort Express; it will provide them with an excuse to decrease the number of burns permitted per track - why do you need to burn a CD to listen to it on your Hi-Fi when you can use an AirPort Express? That car thing Jobs hinted at will strengthen this argument because then you won't need a CD copy of your iTunes files for the car either.

You've got that right on the money$$$ :mad:

[runeasgar]

How about getting an optical to coaxial (if that's what your D/A uses) converter? I think I've seen those around??

Yes, jeff suggested that. I think it's a fantastic idea. Of course, this is where a disadvantage of my audiophile usb comes into play, it doesn't work without my laptop.. so darn..

I have to either choose.. laptop hookup.. or airport express living room hookup =[

too bad i'm not keeping my bx5s or i could have two setups.. ah well

<< relatively poor college student.

[titaniumducky]

wow, this comment is really out of touch.

a modem is for connecting to the internet at 56Kb per second. nothing more
...........
..........


I'm not trying to be picky - just to add.

A modem can connect at 14.4, 28.8, or 56 Kbs.

[ZildjianKX]

It's a shame it now blocks songs that are decrypted by hymn. This was a bad call by Apple, since now a version is going to have to be released that strips the user ID from the file so it will play.

[runeasgar]

I find it hard to believe that runeasgar is SO committed to hi fidelity audio, all the while listening through what are really mid-fi M-Audio monitors with..gasp...a powered M-Audio sub. Sorry, kiddo, but I really think you're talking yourself in circles here. If you're going to be stressed about audio quality, be stressed about the things that really matter and are easily remedied...like what speakers you're using, what amp you're using to drive them (and, I don't think I'm alone when I say that if you're really an audiophile, you wouldn't be using powered monitors on a reference system...pull those M-Audio's apart and I'm sure you'll find the amp to be under-engineered and all of the drivers connected with 18-16 gauge zip cable...or worse). How come you're not arguing about the crossover design of those monitors, or the purity of the cable you're using to connect your speakers to your DA converter (for the last time, it's a cotton-picking DA converter. Using the wrong term is not acceptable in this)?

Totally off topic with the iTunes release, I know, but it can't handle it when "audiophiles" spout about things they may have only a partial grasp on...or don't really have much bearing on real-world listening.

Talk when you're not using mid-fi powered M-Audio monitors, or even those Mackie monitors which, truth be told, still aren't really worth the price of admission.

1) I've said before, I'm poor.
2) The M-Audios are active, not passive. Their damping is better than a passive system. I realize they aren't awesome moniters, I've never said they are. I'm concerned with getting the best sound out of what I HAVE.
3) I'm using high-grade mogami cables to connect my speakers (because I can afford expensive cables)
4) Getting rid of M-Audios, or hadn't you noticed. The HR824s are 10x better and infinitely less expensive than what you probably have in mind. Unless it's some demented sound colored truth series monitors.

So if you can stop referencing the fact that I'm poor (thanks so much for reminding me), as I said, I'm concerned with getting the best sound out of what I HAVE, and I'm working towards better speakers (MackieHR824s) and converters (haven't decided yet). So, will you PLEASE stop bringing my relative poverty into this..

So thanks for bringing up a series of completely irrelevant comments.

EDIT: please stop bringing subjective arguments about speaker quality into this. i'm not interested in your opinion of a particular monitor just as much as i'm sure you aren't interested in mine, so stop sharing it. if you are going to argue something, do it objectively.

[PHARAOHk]

What kind of reference monitors are more flattering or easy on the ears for a smaller budget. I am sorry for the possible inappropriateness but there seem to be some knowledgeable people around this thread.

I like to make music but I want my monitors to serve dual purposes as my only listening speakers for my records as well. I don't know what speakers to start reviewing to so any suggestions would help me.

Thanks.

[runeasgar]

What kind of reference monitors are more flattering or easy on the ears for a smaller budget. I am sorry for the possible inappropriateness but there seem to be some knowledgeable people around this thread.

I like to make music but I want my monitors to serve dual purposes as my only listening speakers for my records as well. I don't know what speakers to start reviewing to so any suggestions would help me.

Thanks.

Hmmm.. that I don't know. My first guess would be genelecs.. but I wouldn't consider them to be easy on the wallet :-p

Truth monitors are very colored. They are like.. $600? or more.. it's a series, so you can pick a grade.

edit: definitely not mackies, they are exceedingly unforgiving to badly produced music.

[JGowan]

... it looks like I'm going to have to use Quicktime/Audio Hi-Jack and strip them more. Apple did *not* do this to me and I understand that. I did this to myself. I just wish it didn't have to be this way... :(Did you just "HYMN" your files and then delete the Protected ones? I can't believe you didn't burn a disk of your protected files :: just in case ::

I "hymn'd" all 55 of my M4P songs, but I made a back-up of them. I just felt in my bones Apple was going to somehow piss on the circumvention I had going.

[Jeff Harrell]

It doesnt play continous in the fact that if you have two songs that are mixed together there is a gap between them when itunes switches from one track to the next.

If you turn on crossfade and set the value to zero, this problem goes away.

Doesn't help on the iPod, of course, but whatcha gonna do.

Honestly, I spend virtually all of my time in shuffle mode or listening to my own playlists anyway. I'm sure the fact that lots of other people do this as well goes a long way toward explaining why this isn't a high-priority item for Apple.

[ethernet76]

I love it when Apple cracks down on all of those little pirates out there!

GO APPLE GO!

Ahh, yes, because there is no difference between piracy and fair use.

Not everyone who breaks the encryption wants to distribute their songs to the world. But it is more important to go after single abusers instead of Chinese pirates that distribute 1000s of illegal albums at $7 each.

Now that your two cents is in, go back to the republican party you came from. For surely, I know of no one else who would make such an incorrect, blanket statement.

[nate13]

Wanna know where the 8 MBs went?! Guess? No, not speed improvements. Neither the GUI. Remember that little app that popped back up a few weeks ago that removed Protection from AAC files from the music store? Got the hint? ThEY DONT WORK! i converted a few of them to regular AAC and then to MP3 for my cheap MP3 player (i use it to run) and now it wont play on my iPod! no, Airtunes was not the only thing in that update. it was the copyright protection. im stuck right now, as i converted some 30 songs for future runs. Do NOT download without making sure you have originals. if anyone has the 4.5 version, please email me so i can recover my songs.
~Nate13 :mad:

Oh yeah, this has nothing to do about the post in front of it, i jsut hit reply in the wrong spot.

BUT- The thumbnail below is of a *funny* song that i downloaded and wanted to listen to on my cheap MP3 player.

[spankalee]

And you say you are getting Mackie monitors, they are so damn hyped and inaccurate it is ridiculous, what do you use now?


Dude, he's using M-Audio BX5's which are some of the worst monitors I've ever heard at any price.

runeasgar, speaker don't have optical in. Speakers are strictly an analog affair. Some powered monitors have digital in, like the Roland DS series (which have optical and coax S/PDIF btw), but they generally suck and you end up being stuck with their D/A. Some computer speakers have optical in as well in order to decode surround, but the optical feeds a D/A, then an amp, then the speakers.

And believe me, I've hear the audiophile, and the Delta 1010, they both have mediocre converters. M-Audio is just a pro-sumer company anyway, (though they do have a nice 88-key weighted USB controller coming out)

[spankalee]

What kind of reference monitors are more flattering or easy on the ears for a smaller budget. I am sorry for the possible inappropriateness but there seem to be some knowledgeable people around this thread.

I like to make music but I want my monitors to serve dual purposes as my only listening speakers for my records as well. I don't know what speakers to start reviewing to so any suggestions would help me.

Thanks.

For a tight budget I'd start by looking by looking at Events. They came out with a new series last year, the TR, that sounds very, very close to their PS series for almost half the price. The low-end TR5s start at around $300 for a pair. They have a surprisingly good low-end for small speakers; well-defined if not exactly earth shaking. The TR6s or 8s might serve general listening better.

Other than that there's not too many cheaper speakers I like, Yamaha made a nice $500 pair (the MSP5 I think) but I think they got discontinued. Other brands worth checking out are Genelec and KRK.

[nacl99]

Wanna know where the 8 MBs went?! Guess? No, not speed improvements. Neither the GUI. Remember that little app that popped back up a few weeks ago that removed Protection from AAC files from the music store? Got the hint? ThEY DONT WORK! i converted a few of them to regular AAC and then to MP3 for my cheap MP3 player (i use it to run) and now it wont play on my iPod! no, Airtunes was not the only thing in that update. it was the copyright protection. im stuck right now, as i converted some 30 songs for future runs. Do NOT download without making sure you have originals. if anyone has the 4.5 version, please email me so i can recover my songs.
~Nate13 :mad:

Oh yeah, this has nothing to do about the post in front of it, i jsut hit reply in the wrong spot.

BUT- The thumbnail below is of a *funny* song that i downloaded and wanted to listen to on my cheap MP3 player.

Doesn't seem fair to blame Apple for stopping you from breaking their business model, not to mention the law.

[bishopduke]

!

[legacyb4]

Not "branding" you, mind you. Just commenting on the fact that you seem so ready to pooh-pooh the unit before you've even tried it out. And when did I ever claim it was "perfect"? You are the one whinging that:

Does me no good to have a high quality digital optical signal if it's coming from a 16-bit 48kHz sample. I might as well throw my $250 A/D converter in the trash and lose a huge portion of my clarity if I want to use AirTunes.

All I said was that if that was the case, you'd be better off NOT using compressed music as your source since it obviously isn't good enough for *your* perfect fairy world...

Oh, by the way, my D/A conversion IS done on my $1,400 amp which is why I'm looking forward to this one; guess that too low of a standard for you? :rolleyes:

Cheers.

I'd have to have.. like.. a $1000 - 2000 converter minimum to process an optical digital out.

Also, in addition to my statement to whomever was branding me earlier, this technology will go hi-fi, it's just that apple will not do it. So I won't be enjoying my 'cabled' world for long.

YOU are just like the people who will, rather than taking note of anything that could even be construed as negative, will argue that everything is completely perfect. Apple is awesome, best computer company out there, no doubt about it. Lots of things are awesome. But if you want to sit in your little fairy world where everything is PERFECT, go right ahead.

Just because your standards are low don't mean that everyone's standards are low.

[sinclairZX81]

You are misinformed. You should be ashamed of yourself. You should gather your people and go to the forums at CNN. Stop trying to bring politics into everything.

while I agree that political sigs need to be banned from this and the rest of the mac forums, it seems partisan of you to attack this person when we all know who's sig plasters his dumbass political views all over this thread.

[bishopduke]

!

[nacl99]

Have a political sig is one thing, but blatently attacking a party in an actual reply is worse. And the only political view I'm spreading, is none. I am simply trying to get people to shutup and focus on computers, or whatever else. Don't you hate when a conversation starts out on one subject, and ends in a political discussion. yes, it seems a bit ironic that this is how this one is going. But the point is to talk about it, so we don't talk about it. If that makes sense.

And you're use of the word partisan is a bit ignorant. I don't belong or follow a political party. If he would have said Something about Liberals, or Kerry, I would have had the same response. When I used the term "your people" I mean people who won't shutup, not Democrats, or however you want to phrase it.

Personally I just like to counter others slander.

[PolarbearTed]

Hey well at least that's one promised delivery date that Apple has met this week. :)

Promised by who...?? With all due respect, I don't believe it was Apple circulating '3Ghz PM next week' rumours. :)

[macridah]

I am a little surprised that Apple did not add two features to iTunes, given the utility of this new AirTunes/AirportExpress combo:

1. Sleep timer
2. Alarm clock

I mean, think about it. Wouldn't it be cool to:

1. Stream the music to the bedroom, and turn on a sleep timer for (60 minutes or so), and/or:
2. Set the alarm clock to start a certain playlist, streaming to a certain AirportExpress (in the bedroom, of course) to go off at 6:30 AM.

This seems obvious. Maybe iTunes 4.7.

P.S. Yeah, I know AppleScript and all that.


Hey, I like that idea. You should send that feedback to apple.

[runeasgar]

Ok, what would you do with $920, geniuses? That's how much I spent on the entire system: speakers, audiophile and cables.

You tell me how you would get a complete sound system, a COMPLETE sound system for that price BETTER than what I have, k?

Otherwise stop being so ***** annoying.

Not everyone is ***** rich, I can't afford a $1400 amp. Rest assured if I ever have the money I'll have a $20 - 30,000 sound system or more. But guess what, up until now I've had about $920 to spend on speakers.

So YOU tell me, what could YOU do with $920 that I didn't do, k? Otherwise stop constantly ragging on my sound system. I KNOW it's only a $920 sound system, I don't need that re-emphasized. AS I SAID BEFORE, I WANT THE BEST SOUND OUT OF WHAT I HAVE, AND WHAT I HAVE IS THE RESULT OF HAVING $920 TO SPEND UP UNTIL THIS POINT.

[Powerbook G5]

Ok, what would you do with $920, geniuses? That's how much I spent on the entire system: speakers, audiophile and cables.

You tell me how you would get a complete sound system, a COMPLETE sound system for that price BETTER than what I have, k?

Otherwise stop being so ***** annoying.

Not everyone is ***** rich, I can't afford a $1400 amp. Rest assured if I ever have the money I'll have a $20 - 30,000 sound system or more. But guess what, up until now I've had about $920 to spend on speakers.

So YOU tell me, what could YOU do with $920 that I didn't do, k? Otherwise stop constantly ragging on my sound system. I KNOW it's only a $920 sound system, I don't need that re-emphasized. AS I SAID BEFORE, I WANT THE BEST SOUND OUT OF WHAT I HAVE, AND WHAT I HAVE IS THE RESULT OF HAVING $920 TO SPEND UP UNTIL THIS POINT.

For $920, I'd take my girlfriend to Disney for a weekend and by the time I come back I wouldn't give a rat's ass whether or not my system could do analog better than digital optical.

[runeasgar]

I spend money on my SO already. This is money for ME.

[evil0ne]

There are three issues with iTunes that need resolving (in my opinion), does anyone know if any of these are fixed?
2) The ability to create multiple libraries. I think this would be useful.


Ever hear of playlists? They even have ones that auto-update called smart playlists. If you want a "Library" of all songs by Wayne Newton make a Smart Playlist that grabs by artist and so on. The big library is meant so you can have a selection of all your songs (library) and drag them into your desired collection (playlist). Is there something that a different library would do that is not already there?

[voodoofish]

thats because your using two routers you need to either just use your basestation or if you need more ports get a hub

oops sorry, it's actually a switch not a router but is that basically the same thing? the reason i got that rather than a hub was because isn't a switch more smart at routing data? but then maybe it's assigning addresses and stuff which conflict with the AirPort or something....

anyways, my main concern would be compatability with like a university network. what I mean is, then you'll have a single ethernet cable for both LAN and WAN and presumably the university will use some kinda fancy router for it's network, so does this mean you would have the same problems I had with not being able to access both the LAN and WAN from one ethernet connection?

[rendezvouscp]

Ever hear of playlists? They even have ones that auto-update called smart playlists. If you want a "Library" of all songs by Wayne Newton make a Smart Playlist that grabs by artist and so on. The big library is meant so you can have a selection of all your songs (library) and drag them into your desired collection (playlist). Is there something that a different library would do that is not already there?

Ok, yes I could just check the ones I want to update and uncheck the ones I don't want to, but I would love to have a separate iPod library. Everything I have is encoded in Apple Lossless or is an iTMS file. After encoding into 192 AAC, I would like to have one for 192 and iTMS and another for Apple Lossless and iTMS. That is one advantage I see of multiple libraries.

BTW, I use Libra (search on VersionTracker) for this functionality currently.

–Chase

[spankalee]

Ever hear of playlists? They even have ones that auto-update called smart playlists. If you want a "Library" of all songs by Wayne Newton make a Smart Playlist that grabs by artist and so on. The big library is meant so you can have a selection of all your songs (library) and drag them into your desired collection (playlist). Is there something that a different library would do that is not already there?

Yes, multiple libraries would help me enormously. I have a laptop with not enough HD space for all my songs. I'd like to have part of my library on my internal HD and the rest on an external. The problem now is that with one library, when I unplug the external iTunes doesn't know, and can't remove those songs from the library. They look like they can play, but they can't. It's annoying.

[spankalee]

Ok, what would you do with $920, geniuses? That's how much I spent on the entire system: speakers, audiophile and cables.


Dude, I wasn't busting on your speaker because they are cheap, I pointed it out because your sooo concerned about audio quality, and claim that the AirPort Express isn't good enough (even though it is and you're just misunderstanding it) and then you have totally crap speakers. It's ironic that's all. There's nothing wrong with a $250 set of speakers, but you just happen to have the worst $250 set of speakers I've ever heard. (and by the way, the other poster who mentioned it was right, the Mackies are way overpriced)

Your whole concern about the sound of the quality of the AirPort Express is totally unfounded for two reasons

1) It's wrong, with the digital out the APE has nothing to do with the sound quality, it's basically like a wireless optical out for your computer at a really good price too.

2) Your current equipment isn't any better. The audiophile is not a pro piece of gear and you wouldn't even be able to tell with your speakers.

All of your complaints are based on a lot of mixed up misinformation. Before you spend any more money on this stuff you should educate yourself more, and not based on what your friends tell you, or some salesman at guitar center, or a forum, or especially rags like stereophile and audiophile. Books and professional engineers (real pros, not home studio guys) are the best sources.

There's real science and math behind this stuff, but a lot of people want to turn the topic into something subjective, nearly metaphysical. While what sounds good is subjective, what certain processes do to audio is not.

Upsampling does not make a digital signal sound better, bit it can make cheaper analog filters in D/A converts sound better by moving the nyquist frequency beyond the audible range. Reading a 16bit file as 24bit doesn't make it sound any better, it just adds 8 zeros to the end every sample, there's no more dynamic range. Higher sampling rates do not add more "digital harshness" than lower sampling rates, they allow the digital signal to encode higher frequencies beyond the audible range, which is why many engineers don't care about higher sampling rates. Greater bit depth does give you significantly more dynamic range and a lower digital noise floor, which is why 24bit audio is quite popular. The difference between modern A/D/As just isn't that great anymore. Mostly its the analog sections that are better (every A/D or D/A has a hardwall analog filter) At higher sampling rates the filter doesn't matter so much so cheaper D/As sound much better at 96k than 44.1k, but a high-end D/A with a great filter may not sound any different at all at 96k than 44.1k.

Whew, well don't take my word for it (I have a feeling you won't), go check up on this stuff yourself, from good reputable sources. I'm not pulling your leg.

Oh, and the AirPort Express rocks.

And Oh #2: I got my MOTU 828mkII and Event TR5s for under a grand. The Events are nothing to brag about, but I like them, and the 828 is awesome.

[SLAPSHOTW]

1) All I see on airtunes is a 1/8th out jack. That's it. No optical. Also, I would have to have an exceedingly nice A/D to have an optical port on it (which is practically top of the line for digital).
2) The express unit is not a high quality A/D converter and neither is the soundcard in your computer.
3) The airport express doesn't 'play' anything, it just sends out an analog signal that was derived from a 16-bit 48kHz sample.

My signal goes from my USB port to an m-audio audiophile usb powered A/D converter that outputs an analog signal from either TRS or RCA to my speakers. Tell me how I'm going to do that with AirTunes. Tell me how I'm even going to reproduce that quality on AirTunes, much less in the same way that I'm doing it now.

Maybe you've already been told this a bunch of times, but Airtunes has an optical out. So, as long as you have lossless audio on your computer, it gets sent to AirTunes as LOSSLESS, to which you can output to the optical out, which is a digital signal. How you convert the digital signal is none of Apple's business, and shouldn't be. Want to play it on expensive speakers? Well, nowadays, many systems have optical in.

The signal is only 16-bit 44.1khz if gotten from a CD. Your 24-bit 96khz stuff will still be the same quality.

edit: well i see the poster above me already did a fine job.
-Matt

[Rog210]

runeasgar said:

"Untrue. D/A optical in is not common for good D/A converters. As I said.. you find optical on crappy built-in D/A converters. They are built into a pre-fab stereo system, or directly into a speaker."

Yes it is. In pro audio, ADAT (optical) is used all the time.

"The majority of D/A converters you will find will not have an optical in. If you are looking at studio grade equipment, or even low end home recording equipment, or just audiophile-type equipment, you won't often find optical in."

Again, wrong. ADAT. The studio I work at has four ADAT cables carrying 16 tracks of 44.1/16 back and forth to the computer.

"Now.. did I hear something crazy about digital being perfect a ways back? I seem to recall someone talking about how could I hope for "better quality than digital" or something like that. Digital is.. without a doubt inferior to analog. The best digital equipment will not outdo the best analog equipment. I'm sorry.. but there is really nothing to argue about there. To get good analog quality out of digital would require a more dynamic method of storing information than binary, or a very very very large hard drive that is very fast and a perfect A/D converter."

Plenty to argue about. Any test you can dream up will show analog to be a far inferior medium to digital in terms of fidelity. If you put something on to analog tape or vinyl then what comes out will not be the same as what went in. It might sound better, or worse .. but it won't sound the same. The very best digital will sound the same ... or close enough for 99% of people not to be able to tell the difference.

Seriously, I don't wanna flame someone with my first post here but you're talking some real rubbish.

[mhar4]

1) All I see on airtunes is a 1/8th out jack. That's it. No optical.

It looks like its optical connector is like that of a minidisk recorder, in which a 3.5mm stereo phono jack and "TOS-link" optical jack are the same hole. Anyhow, it's a nice addition. We have a Sony home theatre amp with two optical inputs, one for the DVD player and now one for this!

[SLAPSHOTW]

I figured I'd reply specifically to this one, since it's the most illogical argument of them all

THAT is the MOST ILLOGICAL thing I have ever heard, in my entire life. Earlier, you said you'd ignore those who didn't agree with you. Then, many, MANY, people prove you wrong, and because you can't defend yourself, you argue against points even you find illogical.

This is an online bulletin board. You don't have to worry about impressing us with your so-called knowledge, or worry about walking away with pride or honor. Learn from this experience.

-Matt

P.S.- I am very sorry if by the time I post this, and have read through the next 6(!!!!) pages of the post, you have already understood your incorrect ways.

[SLAPSHOTW]

The majority of D/A converters you will find will not have an optical in. If you are looking at studio grade equipment, or even low end home recording equipment, or just audiophile-type equipment, you won't often find optical in.



The Digidesign Digi 002, and 002 Rack both have digital in, supporting up to 8 inputs. But everyone hear involved in audio knows that Digidesign has no impact on the professional recording studio world, not with that silly Pro Tools program.

[Rog210]

The signal is only 16-bit 48khz if gotten from a CD. Your 24-bit 96khz stuff will still be the same quality.

edit: well i see the poster above me already did a fine job.
-Matt

44.1/16 for CD

I'm pretty sure optical out goes as far as 48/24 and will not do 96 kHz

[SLAPSHOTW]

44.1/16 for CD

I'm pretty sure optical out goes as far as 48/24 and will not do 96 kHz

Haha, sorry, all these numbers have gotten me in a tizzy (never gonna use that word again, i promise!). I just hate when people have terrible arguments, then change what they're saying midstream because they can't stand to be wrong. Edited and fixed.

[Montserrat]

I know this doesn't really relate to iTunes 4.6, which I'm not getting for the moment as I don't (yet) have an AExp and the other updates to it don't appear to be significant.

I'd just like to settle the digital vs analog debate (or at least add my voice to it)

Digital (CD) provides high quality mass-produceable audio that can be replayed to a reasonable standard relatively cheaply (i.e £30 portable CD player). For this reason it has taken over the world, and for a majority of people the decreased quality of MP3/AAC is not much of a sacrifice for even more portability, particularly when coping with the relatively uncomplex and un-dynamic (a bit of a neologism there I think) music found in the Top 40 / Billboard charts. When wishing to recreate Digital music on a high end stereo system the components need to be of extraordinary quality and on several recordings, even on £10,000 components, music simply doesn't sound "real" - you can't close your eyes and really fool yourself to think that Miles Davis is playing away in your front room!

Analog, however, is more difficult to mass produce, is more liable to damage (can't spread Jam on vinyl ;) ) But can recreate a much more lifelike playback. This is because vinyl playback is only limited by the characteristics of the microphone and studio where the music was recorded/mastered (I admit there are different grades of vinyl in use today that can alter characteristics such as background noise - but with Vinyl now a relatively "audiophile" choice, most records are produced to a high quality). The bandwidth (lowest Hz to Highest Hz) of Vinyl is whatever the microphone/studio can produce. CDs don't have this luxury due to the need for compression. It is believed (I'll have to find a reference) that although the human ear has a "bandwidth" of 20Hz to 20,000Hz, Frequencies outside this have an effect on the audible frequencies leading to a more real reproduction. In addition, digital relies on splitting the audio into tiny segments and this brings in more scope for inaccuracies in the exact timing of notes and instruments - although this is not marked, it contributes to the slightly unreal sound of digital. I was really surprised when I first compared Miles Davis' Kind of Blue - a very dynamically difficult recording to reproduce - on a £5,000 CD player and a £5,000 Record player. The difference was marked, even though the CD sounded amazing, the record was crystal clear and I really believed Miles was hiding in one of the corners secretly playing away!

However, I still have a 300+ CD collection that's still growing and sounds great on my measly £1,000 system, and my PowerBook does have a few MP3s on it, but when I want a really high quality recording I choose vinyl. When all albums are produced in 24bit 96KHz studios and released on DVD-Audio format (the same quality), then digital will be the best sound you can get, but I stongly suspect that studio quality will rise further by then too.


(I should get one of those signatures saying how great Macs are but I'm new here)

[Rog210]

Which ever way you slice it, vinyl isn't a very good medium for a number of reasons: poor dynamic range, distortion, pops and crackles, etc.

I'm talking in terms of fidelity.

It has other non-fidelity components which do make it pleasing to the ear though.

CD isn't great either, 44.1/16 is about the bare minimum for a decent sound and it amuses me that people spend a small fortune on a system to play back this inhernently flawed medium.

Around 60 kHz and 24 bit would be perfect:- massive dynamic range (though this seems to be irrelevant in this decade of super compressed and brickwall limited recordings) and a sample rate high enough to move and filter artifacts well out of the human range of hearing. 88.2 and 96 kHz are slight overkill but much better than CD. 192 kHz is marketing fluff and can actually sound worse than 96 kHz.

DSD (SACD) has it's own major problems.

Sampling rates are one thing but its the implementation that counts and every CD player has analogue circuitry which can massivly effect sound quality.

[Montserrat]

I definately agree that CD is not adequate. I'm still waiting for DVD-Audio to become mainstream before I upgrade my system. I would just say that on top end (I'm talking silly money with minimum £1000 cartridges) Vinyl should certainly not crackle or pop (my record player doesn't even do that really) and background noise is greatly reduced to the point of being very hard to discern during silence even at quite a degree of amplification.
Dynamic range is really down to the cartridge and even on mine there is a really nice range giving amazing instrument separation (I haven't heard as good separation on CD... yet) and distortion shouldn't be an issue, although I had a U2 album which was a dissapointingly poor quality pressing, but as I said before most vinyl is pressed to an extraordinary high quality nowadays.

Ultimately, I currently prefer vinyl for the fact that more titles are available (at more sensible prices) than for SACD (as you say - a fairly poor format) and DVD-A (which is still stupid prices over here) and on high end decks vinyl really sounds so real - and isn't that what fidelity ultimately tries to achieve?

[Rog210]

Montserrat wrote:

"I definately agree that CD is not adequate. I'm still waiting for DVD-Audio to become mainstream before I upgrade my system. I would just say that on top end (I'm talking silly money with minimum £1000 cartridges) Vinyl should certainly not crackle or pop (my record player doesn't even do that really) and background noise is greatly reduced to the point of being very hard to discern during silence even at quite a degree of amplification."

I agree that, with a good system, many of the problems are not as audible, but they are still there and are inherent in the medium.

"Dynamic range is really down to the cartridge and even on mine there is a really nice range giving amazing instrument separation (I haven't heard as good separation on CD... yet) and distortion shouldn't be an issue, although I had a U2 album which was a dissapointingly poor quality pressing, but as I said before most vinyl is pressed to an extraordinary high quality nowadays."

Separation isn't a function of dynamic range. 24 bit is great because the only limitation is the noise floor of the analogue circuits so it'a around -120 dB, depending on the converter in question. Vinyl has a dynamic range of around half that. You'll notice it more on classical recordings:- you can go from barely audible to very, very loud with digital but you'll find vinyl will struggle to capture these extremes. That may be one characteristic which makes vinyl pleasing to listen to.

"Ultimately, I currently prefer vinyl for the fact that more titles are available (at more sensible prices) than for SACD (as you say - a fairly poor format) and DVD-A (which is still stupid prices over here) and on high end decks vinyl really sounds so real - and isn't that what fidelity ultimately tries to achieve?"

Not really. For instance, HIFI speakers often aren't accurate in their frequency response. They're designed to sound 'good' but not 'accurate' Studio monitors don't flatter the music, they're accurate and you hear the music warts and all.

[mhar4]

It would have been great if Laser Disks had had an audio only version. All the aural advantages of analogue with the physical advantages of a non-contact, laser-read, plastic-coated disk. LD provided all of the optical, mechanical and production technology for CDs anyway. Royal Dutch Philips had to get their money back on LD somehow.

[Stewie]

O.. k..
.....
I'm talking CD quality upsampled by my A/D converter. For those of you arguing about upsampling, once again, look it up.
.....
Anyway, look up upsampling before you argue about it....

The problem with looking up anything on the Internet is that you get a wide range of opinions. Some that will support you argurment and others that won't.

When I looked up updampling on google here is on link I found.

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/344/



Now I am sure. It is important to remember three things about all of these products: 1) other than making active the lowest 8 bits of a 24-bit word, no new audio information is created by any of these products; 2) as susceptibility to word-clock jitter increases with sampling frequency, it is always possible that upsampling audio data can make things worse, not better; and 3) no matter how good these upsampling products can sound—and the dCS, Bel Canto, and MSB products indeed sound excellent—there is no conceptual difference between them and traditional CD playback systems.

This article seems to suggest that upsampling doesn't do anything.

Maybe you could suggest a link that will end this argument, one way or another.

[jsw]

The problem with looking up anything on the Internet is that you get a wide range of opinions. Some that will support you argurment and others that won't.....

Perhaps we should just agree that it's "in the ear of the listener" and that there is no definitive "best" sound. Arguably, the highest quality reproduction isn't always the "best" - if you prefer your sound a bit different. It's like trying to debate the best food, or, more accurately, the best reproduction of a dish someone was served. Some judge "best" as "most like the original". Some judge it as "best tasting" - a very subjective thing.

In the end, aside from definitively determining the function of the 1/8 inch optical/audio port, this side thread has done nothing positive except explore the wide range of differing opinions.

There is no perfect reproduction of sound if the reproducing instruments (the speakers) are not identical to the original instruments and in an identical setting. Even a perfect recording will preserve only what the microphones heard, and, even if they are perfect, the listener would not be in the same room as the performance (typically) or in the same position as the mics were and so would perceive it differently even if it could be perfectly reproduced. In the end, all that matters is that the listener enjoys the sound.

[Mac-Xpert]

IDynamic range is really down to the cartridge and even on mine there is a really nice range giving amazing instrument separation (I haven't heard as good separation on CD... yet) and distortion shouldn't be an issue, although I had a U2 album which was a dissapointingly poor quality pressing, but as I said before most vinyl is pressed to an extraordinary high quality nowadays.


First of all I have to say I like the sound of good quality vinyl too. However this is more a subjective matter. I'm afraid you rate the quality of vinyl a little too high.

The dynamic range and channel separation aren't as good on vinyl than on standard CD. The average cartridge gives you about 35db channel separation. The best cartridges I've seen manage about 40-50 db at best. CD however processes the audio channels individually so the approximately 90 db dynamic range also gives you 90 db channel separation. Even on cheap CD players.

The bandwidth (lowest Hz to Highest Hz) of Vinyl is whatever the microphone/studio can produce. CDs don't have this luxury due to the need for compression. It is believed (I'll have to find a reference) that although the human ear has a "bandwidth" of 20Hz to 20,000Hz, Frequencies outside this have an effect on the audible frequencies leading to a more real reproduction.

This is incorrect. Vinyl does not have a "unlimited" frequency range. In fact I think you'll find most records can't go beyond 20kHz. Also the cartridge will have some limitations although the best ones are better than what CD can achieve Also due to the fact that the record playback speed (rotation speed of the disc) stays the same from the beginning to the end of the record, the "groove speed" gets slower towards the end of the record. This will degrade the sound quality and bring more distortion to the sound. The CD works with a servo system that changes the rotation speed throughout playback. Therefore the sound quality stays the same from the first till the last track on the CD.

[nate13]

Doesn't seem fair to blame Apple for stopping you from breaking their business model, not to mention the law.

Breaking the law? I purchased the song, and i should be able to use it how i like, as long as i dont share it, give it away, or something to that extent. Its just like making backups of dvds. If you own the product, you can use it in any way, jsut as long as you dont use it to steal others dvds. Im not blaming Apple, i am just informing the public of the update and a relation to real life. :o
~Nate13

[runeasgar]

This has turned into a subjective argument, so I'm not going to bother including myself in it anymore.

Needless to say, we all have our own 'opinions' about things, there are those who agree and disagree, and this was an entirely unneccessary conversation in the first place.

I got what I wanted, a method by which I can utilize the APE to wirelessly stream higher fidelity music to my speakers.

Also, I've heard my speakers with and without the audiphile, there is no comparing the two. The clarity of the speakers is 3 fold with the audiophile, and that is well worth the money. If you think the converters in an APE are going to be as good, well, that's why this conversation needs to end. That's a ridiculous argument coming from people who either can't tell a 3 fold increase in clarity with their 'unbelievably good speakers' as opposed to an APE or built-in soundcard (rubbish), or they've never heard it and just want to make unfounded statements regarding a lack of difference.

Anyway, I'm out, like I said, this argument has turned subjective and unfounded, and I for one have found what I wanted to find, and I leave this argument with but maybe 2 statements out of this whole conversation holding any relevance whatsoever. So as for the rest of this, it goes in the trash where all the rest of pull-it-out-of-your- garbage goes.

EDIT: It's also gotten incredibly off topic.. and it was off topic to begin with. As a final word, if you can't tell the difference between a soundcard and an audiophile on the m-audio system I have, then you are hard of hearing and don't need to be mixing anything. Anything you mix/record is likely to be full of noise and artifacts that you are unable to hear. I for one don't want you mixing/recording an artist that I enjoy listening to, only to find out that the music is full of unpleasant noise and artifacts, or that your inability to recognize a difference in clarity has translated to a lack of clarity on the recording.

[jayscheuerle]

Updates are always good. Thank you Apple for making it free. :)

Uh.... the update is to help them sell Airport Extremes. Why wouldn't it be free?

[Rog210]

runeasgar wrote:

"It's also gotten incredibly off topic.. and it was off topic to begin with. As a final word, if you can't tell the difference between a soundcard and an audiophile on the m-audio system I have, then you are hard of hearing and don't need to be mixing anything. Anything you mix/record is likely to be full of noise and artifacts that you are unable to hear. I for one don't want you mixing/recording an artist that I enjoy listening to, only to find out that the music is full of unpleasant noise and artifacts, or that your inability to recognize a difference in clarity has translated to a lack of clarity on the recording."

I doubt any artist would let you near them with the gear you've got.

You have a strange argument: having a go at people who can't tell the difference between crap and slightly-less-crap while ignoring people who use top end gear every day, professionally, and have been doing for years.

Damn, you're a funny guy.

[greg75]

If you used hymn to remove DRM from songs from iTMS they will NOT PLAY in the new iTunes 4.6 !!!

DeDRMS 0.3 (http://nanocrew.net/blog/apple/dedrms03.html)
If you're having trouble playing your legally bought music, you might want to try this command:

find ~/Music -iname '*.m4p' -exec perl -pi -e 'BEGIN{$b=0}if(!$b){if(s/geID\x00\x00/DIeg\x00\x00/){$b=1}}' {} ";"

If iTunes plays your fixed files but won't transfer them to your iPod, delete the entries from your iTunes library and then readd the files.

MD5(DeDRMS-0.3.tar.gz) = 9a3fe1940771e8b55fdf1f77d019bd8d

[Elektronkind]

It's also gotten incredibly off topic.. and it was off topic to begin with. As a final word, if you can't tell the difference between a soundcard and an audiophile on the m-audio system I have, then you are hard of hearing and don't need to be mixing anything. Anything you mix/record is likely to be full of noise and artifacts that you are unable to hear. I for one don't want you mixing/recording an artist that I enjoy listening to, only to find out that the music is full of unpleasant noise and artifacts, or that your inability to recognize a difference in clarity has translated to a lack of clarity on the recording.

You're incredibly missing the point. The Audiophile is what is considered PROSUMER. It's much better than a sound card from Best Buy, but it sure isn't anywhere near the top of the hill in terms of quality. If you want top of the hill, get a Metric Halo ULN/2 or a Digi 002. Then go learn about near-field monitors and room acoustics.

You are all high and mighty on your $920 investment in what you think is top notch, and it may well be compared to what you have had in the past, but it's still a hobbyist card with hobbyist speakers, and probably not in an acoustically condusive room. So your rantings about optimal quality re: APExpress are pale in light of this.

/dale

[Bruce Lee, PhD]

Hi,

I thought I'd try to add some more info to anyone following this thread about digital audio, upsampling, conversion, and so on. Some of you obviously know all this; I just wanted to consolidate things which came up for anyone not versed in audio.

1. First, this is pretty basic and I think folks are clear on this now, but:
-- A/D means analog-to-digital (usually for recording)
-- D/A means digital-to-analog (usually for playback)
Pros will often refer to both as simply 'converters' and the context should make it clear which direction it's going.

2. Pro recording systems often have digital inputs. This is different that having A/D converters or D/A converters. Optical inputs on recording systems allow you to use whatever outboard converters you like. It isn't too hard to spend $25k on a good microphone, mic preamp, and A/D converter. In fact, with this gear, you can then plug it right into any crappy soundcard with digital input and have *recorded* sound quality as good as plugging the same gear into a pro system with digital inputs. Obviously if you do *playback* of youur perfect signal through your crappy soundcard, you won't be able to tell how nice your recording is, but that's a different point.

3. Oversampling, upsampling and filtering.
-- Oversampling means increasing the effective sampling rate of a file, and usually implies some interpolation is done. If you take a file sampled at N samples per second, you can easily convert it to 2N samples per second just by adding a second sample for each sample in the file and playing it back twice as fast. This obviously does nothing for you in terms of quality, good or bad. As discussed above, if you interpolate data points this may improve the perceived sound quality, though the biggest benefit is that you don't need to use a crappy filter to chop off frequencies above N/2 Hz.

However, if you go from N samples per second to 1.1N samples per second, it's not so clear how to convert the file without artifacts (since the sample boundaries don't line up nicely). For example, doubling every 10th sample will produce a file at the desired effective sampling rate, but that'll sound terrible. So you probably end up doing some something reasonably sophisticated to more closely approximate what you think the original (anaog) signal must have been, given the digital samples you've got, and thus introducing artifacts (which can be good or bad). In general, you oversample to an integer multiple of the original rate to avoid such issues.

-- "Upsampling" refers specifically to oversampling when you do it before sending the signal to the output D/A converter. This may improve sound quality, perhaps because you're sending the upsampled signal to a better D/A converter than you would be otherwise. The D/A converter can be considered a filter of sorts, and if you've got good filters, you can make audio more listenable. As an analogy, consider photoshop filters. If you edge enhance an image, you haven't actually added any new information to the image. But you've modified it to make different use of the bits available in the file format. You've used the original file's information, but presented it in a way which exaggerates things which the human visual system is sensitive to. For an extreme example, just consider normalizing an audio or image file. You haven't added any information; you've just made better use of your available bandwidth.

-- So anyway, point is that there's no theoretical magic to upsampling. It doesn't add anything to the signal. But in practice it may turn out to improve perceived audio quality on existing hardware.

4. mp3 and aac, while quite practical, introduce significant artifacts. Everybody knows this. Will mp3 files sound better through better hardware? Of course. Will they sound as good as vinyl or CD audio with good converters? Of course not. Can people actually tell the difference? Yes, it's not that hard, especially if you can A/B them.

5. It is CLEARLY impossible to have both digital and analog output from a single connector and anyone who suggests otherwise is a mouth-breathing cretin.

Just kidding about #5. :-)

Anyway, I hope someone finds this useful.

[jsw]

Hi,

I thought I'd try to add some more info to anyone following this thread about digital audio, upsampling, conversion, and so on. ...

Well put. Thanks! Very nicely done.

On a side note, utterly irrelevant to this thread, apparently:

Has anyone seen anything new in 4.6 aside from AirTunes support?

[ingenious]

You can also get your Apple updates downloaded for free at your nearby Apple store. I saw someone getting their updates from the Genius Bar.

I am the exact opposite from you. I save hundreds of dollars a year by switching to Broadband Extreme. I watch movies and view music videos and download music all the time from iTunes. Since I don't pay for my video iChat sessions it had a huge effect on my long distance. I also download game demos and realized that the game wasn't any good so I saved money from buying the retail version. And I don't have to deal with the cost of 2 phone lines since I am online for hours on end.

It's nice there are plans available for people that just want email and for people that do tons of stuff online.

Yes, I just wish broadband was a feasable option for me. Luckily, we have underground phone lines, so I can connect at a whopping 54.6 kb/s and like 33.6 kb/s upload. It's nice that the Apple Stores will let you do that... if there were any in the MidWest.

[jsw]

It's nice that the Apple Stores will let you do that... if there were any in the MidWest.

Where, roughly, are you? My parents live outside Peoria, IL, and my relatives are in Keokuk, IA, and both can get braodband, so perhaps it isn't going to be long for you. However, it does seem like Apple Stores aren't growing too prolifically between the coasts.

[Elektronkind]

Has anyone seen anything new in 4.6 aside from AirTunes support?

AirTunes support is the only /visible/ change I see.

The other bugfixes must have been to the various itunes internals.

/dale

[ingenious]

You're incredibly missing the point. The Audiophile is what is considered PROSUMER. It's much better than a sound card from Best Buy, but it sure isn't anywhere near the top of the hill in terms of quality. If you want top of the hill, get a Metric Halo ULN/2 or a Digi 002. Then go learn about near-field monitors and room acoustics.

You are all high and mighty on your $920 investment in what you think is top notch, and it may well be compared to what you have had in the past, but it's still a hobbyist card with hobbyist speakers, and probably not in an acoustically condusive room. So your rantings about optimal quality re: APExpress are pale in light of this.

/dale

I just wish I had a decent sound card in my PC since I can't use my PB right now. You are all very blessed to have such great cards... I have hissing, clicking, static and more!

[applebum]

It's cheaper, and a HUGE number of users don't wish to part with $100 to $200 more per year to do email faster.

This isn't necessarily true - it all depends on how you use it. I used to pay $20 for dial up, $32 for local phone, and another $30 for long distance. That is $82 per month I was paying. I now pay $45 for cable internet, and since I have a broadband connection I use VOIP for phone (local and long distance) that costs me $27. That is only $72 per month I am paying now, so I am saving $120 per year by using broadband. Even if my dial up had only been $10 per month, I would still be breaking even to have everything much faster.

And lastly, it's the only universal option when traveling with a laptop--a fairly common device :)

Sorry - no dial up is universal (unless you are willing to dial long distance in some cases). The closest is probably AOL - which is almost as expensive as broadband these days. I have been many places where my dial up provider didn't have a local number. Also, most of the places I have travelled to recently have hotels that have some form of broadband connection.

I can think of several things I would give up before giving up my broadband access - my wife could not have completed her master's degree without that broadband. Once you get used to it, I just don't think you can go back.

[runeasgar]

runeasgar wrote:

"It's also gotten incredibly off topic.. and it was off topic to begin with. As a final word, if you can't tell the difference between a soundcard and an audiophile on the m-audio system I have, then you are hard of hearing and don't need to be mixing anything. Anything you mix/record is likely to be full of noise and artifacts that you are unable to hear. I for one don't want you mixing/recording an artist that I enjoy listening to, only to find out that the music is full of unpleasant noise and artifacts, or that your inability to recognize a difference in clarity has translated to a lack of clarity on the recording."

I doubt any artist would let you near them with the gear you've got.

You have a strange argument: having a go at people who can't tell the difference between crap and slightly-less-crap while ignoring people who use top end gear every day, professionally, and have been doing for years.

Damn, you're a funny guy.

I don't record, d.s. I wouldn't dream of recording on these speakers.

[runeasgar]

You're incredibly missing the point. The Audiophile is what is considered PROSUMER. It's much better than a sound card from Best Buy, but it sure isn't anywhere near the top of the hill in terms of quality. If you want top of the hill, get a Metric Halo ULN/2 or a Digi 002. Then go learn about near-field monitors and room acoustics.

You are all high and mighty on your $920 investment in what you think is top notch, and it may well be compared to what you have had in the past, but it's still a hobbyist card with hobbyist speakers, and probably not in an acoustically condusive room. So your rantings about optimal quality re: APExpress are pale in light of this.

/dale

Amazing how you managed to miss the point completely. I don't have more money to spend, and you didn't answer the question OR address the point. Congrats. Never said mine was top notch. For the FIFTH time, I want the best sound out of what I have, not to be argued with about spending more money.

Also, once again, if you can't tell a markedly improved difference from a basic or medium grade or even 'high' grade consumer system to my sound system, you must be deaf.

[xsnightclub]

I am a little surprised that Apple did not add two features to iTunes, given the utility of this new AirTunes/AirportExpress combo:

1. Sleep timer
2. Alarm clock

I mean, think about it. Wouldn't it be cool to:

1. Stream the music to the bedroom, and turn on a sleep timer for (60 minutes or so), and/or:
2. Set the alarm clock to start a certain playlist, streaming to a certain AirportExpress (in the bedroom, of course) to go off at 6:30 AM.

This seems obvious. Maybe iTunes 4.7.


P.S. Yeah, I know AppleScript and all that.

You should be able to do this when airtunes express comes out doing the following, http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14529&stc=1
Provided that iTunes allows you to default to an airtunes express, as it currently does at launch when it goes to the last library selected.

[brentski]

I am a X.2 user and the first thing I noticed was you need X.3 to use AirTunes. So I really do not have a problem with that new features for the new OS seems okay. But!! AirTunes working for Windows XP and not Other Mac OS's is completely absurd. Anyone know why it is only available to 10.3 and higher?

[Elektronkind]

I am a X.2 user and the first thing I noticed was you need X.3 to use AirTunes. So I really do not have a problem with that new features for the new OS seems okay. But!! AirTunes working for Windows XP and not Other Mac OS's is completely absurd. Anyone know why it is only available to 10.3 and higher?

Because perhaps the facilities needed for AirTunes functionality in iTunes may not be present in anything before X.3?

/dale

[morespce54]

...Crossfading is good, but it would be nice to be able to disable crossfading at the end/beginning of a song. I feedback'd that to apple a while back.


...Or be able to use the crossfading option on my iPod! :rolleyes:

[Elektronkind]

Never said mine was top notch. For the FIFTH time, I want the best sound out of what I have, not to be argued with about spending more money.

May I direct you to one of your own posts:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=878772#post878772

Where you said:
"Just because your standards are low don't mean that everyone's standards are low."

Thereby implying that your audio standards are not low, so they must be high. To people such as me, are are seriously into the audio business, high means just that - high. Combine this with your stated choosing of gear, and then your arguments of how clarity is incredibly important to you - and it does not add up.

[QUOTE]
Also, once again, if you can't tell a markedly improved difference from a basic or medium grade or even 'high' grade consumer system to my sound system, you must be deaf.

Oh I can, and that's certainly why I don't own anything as low as your system. waah wahh, stop complaining about how you only had X dollars to spend. That's your own predicament, not ours.

/dale, who doesn't buy gear because of its marketing name.

[greg75]

Because perhaps the facilities needed for AirTunes functionality in iTunes may not be present in anything before X.3?
Apple Lossless encoding is the only functionality needed, and that's available under X.2

[snirre]

A notice from Oslo, Norway:
I may be right, I may be wrong, but I'm perfectly willing to swear: With version 4.6 of iTunes, the "Buy song" buttons are in Norwegian (that is: "Kjøp sang"). I don't think they were in Norwegian before. At least not before v4.5. If it's new in 4.6, it might just mean that iTMS Europe is coming close.

[TiBoi500]

If you used hymn to remove DRM from songs from iTMS they will NOT PLAY in the new iTunes 4.6 !!!

I would look HERE (http://www.uneasysilence.com/2004/06/some-of-you-may-know-some-may-not.shtml)

[SLAPSHOTW]

If you think the converters in an APE are going to be as good, well, that's why this conversation needs to end.


Rune, the whole point of this was there aren't any converters in the APE if you're outputting to digital. So you'd rely on whatever external converter you want.

-Matt

[sjk]

Is there something that a different library would do that is not already there?For using different music libraries with different music folders?

What I'm looking for is the optimal way to remap pathnames of songs that were originally in two locations (internal iBook and external FireWire drives, outside the iTunes Music folder) to their new "permanent" location on an eMac internal volume (still outside the iTunes Music folder)... without losing play counts, date added, and other library information. Any pointers for how to do that would be appreciated. Nothing I've found so far has seemed quite right but I may have overlooked something obvious. Thanks!

[sjk]

Yes, multiple libraries would help me enormously. I have a laptop with not enough HD space for all my songs. I'd like to have part of my library on my internal HD and the rest on an external. The problem now is that with one library, when I unplug the external iTunes doesn't know, and can't remove those songs from the library. They look like they can play, but they can't. It's annoying.That's how I got into my predicament with a library that now can't find songs that are finally in a single location. Once I get that resolved I'll figure out a strategy for managing libraries when copying songs from the eMac to iBook for mobile access...

[mproud]

Is this new? Album art with visualisations?

-A.
Actually, that has been there since 4.5. I know since our Mac club at school put on an iTunes party and I recall seeing the artwork for the song's album in the visualizer. And Apple obviously knew we were having a party that Friday back in April sicne they promptly released a new version erlier that week :D

[sjk]

Breaking the law? I purchased the song, and i should be able to use it how i like, as long as i dont share it, give it away, or something to that extent.Not that I disagree, but "should" is irrelevant in legal matters.

[benpatient]

i think iTunes 4.6 is free, and panther is 129 dollars, and THAT is why it only works with panther.

:)

the joys of version creep. MS seems happy to give us 6 years to get used to an OS.


and sjk, you're right, except that "fair use" is the legal matter in question, and the DMCA is valid only so long as it does not interfere with "fair use"

everyone is using vagaries to define their arguments in court, the RIAA, the MPAA, consumer activism groups, file sharing networks, judges, senators, everyone. people are making things up because legislating this system/medium/technology is in truth not possible at the level that is being attempted. digital music and video, and the internet will eventually force the reshaping of the ideas of creative copyright and intellectual property.

we're on the verge of a Brave New World. It will just take a while for the billionaires and the old men to realize that/die.