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MacBytes
Jun 9, 2004, 05:02 PM
Category: News and Press Releases
Link: Apple\'s G5 claims in advertising evaluation finalised. (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20040609180250)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

azdude
Jun 9, 2004, 05:55 PM
Category: News and Press Releases
Link: Apple\'s G5 claims in advertising evaluation finalised. (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20040609180250)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

2/3... not bad, right?

I agree with the "Authority"'s decisions.

jimsowden
Jun 9, 2004, 07:36 PM
Perhaps the new dual 2.5GHz 90nm can uphold Apple's origional claim of fastest personal computer. I sure wouldn't mind rubbing that in my PC firends' faces again.

dopefiend
Jun 9, 2004, 07:38 PM
Perhaps the new dual 2.5GHz 90nm can uphold Apple's origional claim of fastest personal computer. I sure wouldn't mind rubbing that in my PC firends' faces again.

You can have a quad proc personal computer on the x86 side. There will always be a faster option on the x86 side ;)

killmoms
Jun 9, 2004, 08:26 PM
You can have a quad proc personal computer on the x86 side. There will always be a faster option on the x86 side ;)

No, you can get a quad Opteron or Xeon "workstation" (more likely a "server"), but not a "personal" computer. It's all in the wording.

--Cless

montex
Jun 9, 2004, 08:27 PM
Pardon me, dopefiend, I am not aware of any quad processor PC's on the market. Please post a link to prove such a beast exists.

dopefiend
Jun 9, 2004, 08:31 PM
No, you can get a quad Opteron or Xeon "workstation" (more likely a "server"), but not a "personal" computer. It's all in the wording.

--Cless

If its at a house, not used for business, then its personal :cool:

dopefiend
Jun 9, 2004, 08:33 PM
Pardon me, dopefiend, I am not aware of any quad processor PC's on the market. Please post a link to prove such a beast exists.

Heres one of the boards.

http://www.amdboard.com/tyan_s4880_opteron_board.html

Nothing but drool for that many procs! :eek:

montex
Jun 9, 2004, 08:52 PM
Um, excuse me dopefiend, but that is a Server, not a "personal computer" as per your claim. Unless your idea of a personal computer is something you mount in a rack. Please post a link to a quad processor "personal computer". If you can...

dopefiend
Jun 9, 2004, 08:58 PM
Um, excuse me dopefiend, but that is a Server, not a "personal computer" as per your claim. Unless your idea of a personal computer is something you mount in a rack. Please post a link to a quad processor "personal computer". If you can...

Bleh.

I didn't post on this thread to prove anything. I have no reason to lie. Look around for yourself. You can throw a quad proc. board into some towers out there ;)

montex
Jun 9, 2004, 09:07 PM
Dopefiend - you made a claim. And unless you are an asshat, you should be able to back it up with proof. All you have to point to is a motherboard and that is not a whole personal computer. Sure plenty of Uber-geeks can assemble a franken box, but that is not the point. There are just no quad processor PC's for the mass market.

The article was about Apple making claims that were not verifiable. You do that same thing and fail to see the hipocracy in what you blog.

dopefiend
Jun 9, 2004, 09:10 PM
There are just no quad processor PC's for the mass market.

Uh, why does a personal computer have to be a mass marketed one?

montex
Jun 9, 2004, 09:21 PM
Uh, why does a personal computer have to be a mass marketed one?

Good question. I guess when get down to it anything could be a PC, even my calculator could be a PC. But we are talking about the competition between Apple's personal computers vs. a Wintel brand. For example, would it make sense to compare a fancy BMW to a drag racer? Nope. They are not in the same class. So I stick by my claim that a quad processor server mobo is not anywhere near the same thing as a "personal computer".

snooziums
Jun 9, 2004, 09:46 PM
Heres one of the boards.
http://www.amdboard.com/tyan_s4880_opteron_board.html
Nothing but drool for that many procs! :eek:

How much does that mainboard cost? Where can the avarage person buy one?

If the mainboard (even without processors) costs less than $800, and if anyone can buy just one of those mainboards easily, then I supposed that it could be considered for the personal computer market, although very high-end personal computer.

I have looked and looked, and I cannot find a price or where to order it anywhere using the Google search engine.

Also, in order to be used in a personal computer, it MUST fit into an ATX case. That mainboard does not look like it will fit into an ATX case at all.

dukemeiser
Jun 9, 2004, 09:53 PM
I have to agree with the "authority" as well. Apple was really stretching it to call it the "worlds fastest personal computer." Such a claim is hard to support with empirical evidence.

dopefiend
Jun 9, 2004, 09:54 PM
That board alone probably cost $1000+ hehe. Then procs alone would cost you around $500 each or so.

But who sets these "definitions" of personal computers?

What exactly makes a computer a workstation and not a personal computer?

I mean, you can get a PM up to costing $8,000+. Is the PM a workstation?

Now I'm curious :(

snooziums
Jun 9, 2004, 10:10 PM
After looking at the mainboard closely, I have determined that it will NOT fit into an ATX case. The PCI slots are not lined up right, the mainboard is too large to fix, and the mounting holes for the mainboard are all wrong for an ATX case.

Just about ALL PCs use ATX cases, and ALL consumer-built PCs are in ATX cases. If fact, ATX is the only option for the PC builder.

Even some Macintoshes were in slightly-modified ATX cases, such as the 8600, 9600, and some clones (like the Power Tower Pro I have, I even replaced the case with a PC ATX case).

So, unless the consumer did not want a case for his quad-processor computer, this mainboard is not an option.

And in a final note, no consumer power supply could ever power this. A computer built on this would require at least a 500 watt power supply, which can not be found in any consumer-level new computer parts store.

Although, it IS a nice mainboard, and something to drool about, however just way beyond being able to use in any personal computer.

dopefiend
Jun 9, 2004, 10:14 PM
And in a final note, no consumer power supply could ever power this. A computer built on this would require at least a 500 watt power supply, which can not be found in any consumer-level new computer parts store.

:confused:

http://store.yahoo.com/saveateaglestore/ar500watatxp.html

500 watt power supplies aren't rare.

snooziums
Jun 9, 2004, 10:23 PM
:confused:
http://store.yahoo.com/saveateaglestore/ar500watatxp.html
500 watt power supplies aren't rare.

Darn, never saw that before. And for $22.95? I might get one for my Power Computing Power Tower Pro. Too bad they are on backorder. *sigh*

(note that it is for an ATX case).

snooziums
Jun 9, 2004, 10:35 PM
Heres one of the boards.
http://www.amdboard.com/tyan_s4880_opteron_board.html

Lets see, two heat sinks on the mainboard, before adding processors. The AMD Opteron processors displace a LOT of heat, and multiply that by four.

"The personal computer that also serves as your home furnace!"

thatwendigo
Jun 9, 2004, 11:49 PM
If the mainboard (even without processors) costs less than $800, and if anyone can buy just one of those mainboards easily, then I supposed that it could be considered for the personal computer market, although very high-end personal computer.

Keep in mind that even mid-level Opteron processors are $350-400 a piece, which would put the system cost at $1400-1600 even without the board or any other components. That's assuming no markup by manufacturers and building your own, also.

Oh, and for your edification: It's $1,700-2,000 for the board alone. (http://www2.dealtime.com/xPP-Motherboards-S4882-~S-213~LO-0/FD-0/linkin_id-3007148/NS-1/GS.html)

Sun Baked
Jun 10, 2004, 12:02 AM
Uh, why does a personal computer have to be a mass marketed one?Because then any computer can instantly become a personal computer, the instant somebody declares it one -- including one-off machines such as the VT G5 Supercomputing Cluster.

cawhitepdx
Jun 10, 2004, 12:13 AM
I can't believe no-one has noticed that board doesn't have an AGP slot. Have fun trying to play any recent games using that Rage XL with 8MB :D

That said, that looks like it would make a nice server. Pretty expensive though compared to the stuff I buy from HP (which are Xeons, admittedly.)

thatwendigo
Jun 10, 2004, 12:16 AM
I can't believe no-one has noticed that board doesn't have an AGP slot. Have fun trying to play any recent games using that Rage XL with 8MB :D

I'd just assumed it would be like the Tyan Thunder K8W board, which did have an AGP 8x slot. Nice of you to add that little tidbit to the discussion, though, since it adds a whole new world of ugly to the idea of trying to use that thing as a desktop machine.

unoriginl
Jun 10, 2004, 07:30 AM
What I'd like to know is why Apple is holding out on this G8 I've heard so much about lately... I suppose they're in production in Georgia :D
JV

punter
Jun 10, 2004, 10:29 AM
i'd like to see some price/performance comparisons between the dual g5s and the quad intel boxes. but only if they were favourable ;)

shamino
Jun 10, 2004, 11:09 AM
Pardon me, dopefiend, I am not aware of any quad processor PC's on the market. Please post a link to prove such a beast exists.
Although they are servers, these (http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/servers/platforms/index-dl.html) are definitely PC's. They run Linux, Windows and other popular PC operating systems. Note that the high-end models are 8-way Xeon boxes.

shamino
Jun 10, 2004, 11:18 AM
http://store.yahoo.com/saveateaglestore/ar500watatxp.html

500 watt power supplies aren't rare.
Why go for a no-name brand of unknown quality when the good brands also make them?
This one (http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/about/index_whatnew510.htm) and this one (http://www.antec-inc.com/us/pro_details_powerSupply.php?ProdID=20550) immediately come to mind.

sjk
Jun 10, 2004, 03:00 PM
"The personal computer that also serves as your home furnace!"Reminds me of a guy who bought an old Foonly mainframe computer for less than the electricity cost to run it for a week. Some "personal" computer that turned out to be for him. :D

thatwendigo
Jun 10, 2004, 08:56 PM
Although they are servers, these (http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/servers/platforms/index-dl.html) are definitely PC's. They run Linux, Windows and other popular PC operating systems. Note that the high-end models are 8-way Xeon boxes.

ProLiant DL740 Intel® Xeon™ Processor MP at 3.00GHz/4MB, 4GB (4P Model) - Customized
Eight (8) Intel® Xeon™ MP 3.00GHz/4MB Processors
16GB Addressable Memory (8x512MB + 2x512MB Redundant Memory)
Windows Server 2003
Standard one Ultra3 SCSI Drive Cage (supports U320 transfer rates when used with optional U320 controllers)
Embedded Smart Array 5i Controller (Ultra3 support for internal SCSI Drive Cage)
36.4GB Pluggable Ultra320 SCSI 10,000 rpm Universal Hard Drive (1")
Two (2) NC7781 PCI-X Gigabit NICs (embedded)
Two (2) Redundant Hot Plug 1100W/800W Power Supplies
Two (2) Redundant Hot Plug Fans
SmartStart & Insight Manager 7
Integrated Lights-Out Standard (iLO) On System Board
Warranty - 3 year next business day onsite

Cost? $77,863!

That's 13 top-end G5 xserves, which would give you 26 2.0ghz 970FX processors, 26GB of ECC PC3200 RAM, 9.75TB of SATA 150 drives, and 24 channels of Gigabit Ethernet. Granted, that's 9U of space more than the HP, but it's also a hell of a lot more machine. Additionally, that's a head node with 2x 2.0ghz 970FX, 512MB ECC PC3200, 80GB SATA, and two more dual-channel Gigabit Ethernet.

The Apple machine would have 2.16 times the processor clock, 1.6 times the RAM, 263.8 times the drive space, and 12 times the usable networking channels in the computing units. I'm leaving the head node out for those figures.

Would you call the cluster a personal computer, though?

dopefiend
Jun 10, 2004, 08:59 PM
Would you call the cluster a personal computer, though?

Well thats the thing. Who decides what draws the line? What specific features stop it from being a personal computer?

sambo.
Jun 11, 2004, 01:00 AM
......looked really nice until i costed it at A$3000+, without processors btw.... http://www.altech.com.au/

yuh, the pc that heats your home. run a liquid cooling system around it and it'd do your hot water needs too.

how much 'puting power do you need to run games anyhoo? the video card is just as vital no?

on that note - i like the comparison shop on the x-serves......

dopefiend
Jun 11, 2004, 01:02 AM
It was just an example of a quad computer sambo ;)

sambo.
Jun 11, 2004, 02:45 AM
if i "had" to buy a windoze box, i would get an AMD, no question. some gamephreak mates have built themselves some seriously uber systems from the spare parts bin down at the local computer fair based on AMD mainboards/processors. an opteron running OS-X would be very, very nice. if i could get the mainboards (cheaply, i know they are avail...), i would prolly build my own mac.

as it is, i gonna buy the g5's and if i need a server in a couple of years, well, i'll eith spend up big again and get x-serves, or i'll get an AMD chipset, bunch of BFO hardies and some beefy network links and build my own linux server. :D

c'mon apple, license ya bloody OS...... :cool:

shamino
Jun 11, 2004, 09:18 AM
Cost? $77,863!

That's 13 top-end G5 xserves...

Would you call the cluster a personal computer, though?
This is all true and very interesting, but you're answering a question nobody asked.

The person I was replying to (montex) asked:
I am not aware of any quad processor PC's on the market. Please post a link to prove such a beast exists.

I answered his question and pointed out a link to several such systems made by a well-known manufacturer of high-end PCs.

Of course, it's an incredibly expensive system. That's besides the point. The point is that they exist and can be purchased - which the OP didn't know.

wdlove
Jun 11, 2004, 12:34 PM
I hope that we will see more advertising for the G5 from Apple. They can only improve on the last commercial.

jsw
Jun 11, 2004, 12:38 PM
I hope that we will see more advertising for the G5 from Apple. They can only improve on the last commercial.

So true.

And I'd also like to see - not an original thought - ads showing how useful the Mac is (i.e., OS X in synergistic addition to the hardware) as opposed to just flashing numbers and showing cases. Perhaps time to bring back Jeff Goldblum and have him whip through a bunch of fun stuff in 30 seconds on a new G5. Might be cool.

thatwendigo
Jun 11, 2004, 01:16 PM
This is all true and very interesting, but you're answering a question nobody asked.

The fact that nobody asked is irrelevant, because what you were saying is more than a little misleading. Those are rackmounted servers, not desktop machines, and they're not going to behave like the computers most people think of when you say "PC." I didn't see a graphics card mentioned on the HP servers, just to name one difference that would be pretty noticeable.

I answered his question and pointed out a link to several such systems made by a well-known manufacturer of high-end PCs.

There aren't commercial, four processor desktop machines being made for the purposes of anyone other than the dedicated server market. At least, not in the mainstream and not yet, though I could see it coming.

Bigheadache
Jun 11, 2004, 07:49 PM
Apple really need to cut down on the "fastest in the world" claims, its just asking for trouble when you make open ended statements like that. You don't see car manufacturers telling you that their newest product is the fastest in the world, they'll quote you horsepower and 0-60 and leave it up to you.

shamino
Jun 12, 2004, 01:10 PM
The fact that nobody asked is irrelevant, because what you were saying is more than a little misleading. Those are rackmounted servers, not desktop machines, and they're not going to behave like the computers most people think of when you say "PC." I didn't see a graphics card mentioned on the HP servers, just to name one difference that would be pretty noticeable.
You're inventing new terminology here.

Everybody in the world who uses the term "PC" is referring to a computer with an Intel-compatible processor that is capable of booting Windows, Linux or other PC-compatible operating systems.

Nobody, except in pointless arguments like this, actually uses it to mean "personal computer". Do you refer to your Mac as a PC? How about workstations from Sun, HP, SGI and others? They're all "personal" desktop systems, but nobody has ever referred to them as a "PC".

Go ahead and redefine all the terminology you want, but don't go around claimning that everybody else's use is wrong just because you want to be different.