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x86isslow
Jun 11, 2004, 11:21 AM
Thinking ahead to the WWDC, it seems likely that a new iMac will have a large role in Steve's keynote, as the one line to not have updated yet this year. I think, however, that another G4 iMac would not sell, and the only way to resusitate the line is with a G5. This is problematic since the Powermac line still uses the same chips (1.8, 2.0) that it did last year, meaning Apple may only be able to use a 1.6 in the iMac.

The other problem- the falling price of the powermac and the price point of the eMac leaves little window for three models of the iMac. eMac/superdrive is 999.

I think Apple may drop the 15 and re-position the 17" on the low end, as part of their trend- they removed the Superdrive from the 15 at some point, IIRC.

But since a G5 iMac anywhere near the eMac price point will result in sales cannibalization, do you think we'll see a price drop in the eMacs? A specs boost?

Your thoughts please:

sigamy
Jun 11, 2004, 04:06 PM
There is a lot up in the air on the iMac. Many have made assumptions that we'll see a new form factor in addition to the G5 making an appearance.

If the new form factor is "more advanced" than the current flat panel iMac I doubt if we'll see any price drops coming to the iMac. If Apple somehow figures out how to put a G5 in the current FP iMac our best hope is for prices to remain constant, so you get more for your dollar.

The eMac is the best value in the line but there probably is still room for Apple to cut the margins and lower the price. They can sell refurb eMacs for anywhere from $550 - $700 so why not just release a CDRW version (not combo drive) for $499 and try to win back some market share?

The final piece of this puzzle is the never ending quest for a headless, upgradable consumer Mac. There are many people out there who want to keep their current monitor and when they go shopping and maybe even consider Apple then quickly find out that the "affordable" Macs come with screens. I really do believe this turns off a good number of potential buyers.

I think there is room for all of these machines. Here is my breakdown:

eMac $499 - $799: Market this to first time buyer, basic home user and education. Perfect for iLife, internet, email & word processing.

nMac (new Mac): headless consumer mac with G4 or G5, upgradable video card (soon we will no longer need ADC), upgradable RAM and HD. It may sound stupid to have a G4 here but again, think of all the people with Dells who want to dump Windows but want keep their 2 year old LCD. A G4 would be fine for these low-end consumers. G4 for $799, 1.6ghz G5 for $1200. So for $799 you can have a non-upgradble G4 with a CRT or you can have flexibility to upgrade but no CRT. Seems equitable to me.

iMac: known for more of style over substance. G5 but not upgradable (besides 1 or 2 RAM sticks). Slightly new form factor but still an all-in-one. 17" G5 for $1499, 20" G5 for $1799 (these are my price cuts, which I don't really believe will happen).

With this line up the iMac would really have to be a real beauty to sell...Maybe there isn't room for it after all?

quagmire
Jun 11, 2004, 04:34 PM
Apple can still use the 1.6,1.8, and 2.0 Ghz G5 chip. The Powermacs are all dual and the imacs will be singles. There is a big speed difference. I also believe that the 1.8 and 2.0 Ghz are t 90nm.

hvfsl
Jun 11, 2004, 05:11 PM
The new iMac should have:

8xSuperDrive
128MB Radeon9600XT
dual channel DDR400
2Ghz (90nm) G5

But knowing Apple, it will have:
4xSuperDrive
128MB GeforceFX5200
single channel DDR400
1.6Ghz (90nm) G5

Dont Hurt Me
Jun 11, 2004, 05:48 PM
If Apple puts in a fx5200 and its not a removeable card ( you know so you can yank it out and throw it away) then it will sink sales period. Fx5200 aint going to do anything but kill sales.

nuckinfutz
Jun 11, 2004, 05:59 PM
The eMac is the best value in the line but there probably is still room for Apple to cut the margins and lower the price. They can sell refurb eMacs for anywhere from $550 - $700 so why not just release a CDRW version (not combo drive) for $499 and try to win back some market share?

The oem cost difference between a combo drive and a CDRW is $15 at best. People that buy $499 computers aren't going to turn around and buy Final Cut Pro but they will call your tech support line and cost you money. No studies have shown that cheapo computers help at all. I honestly think supporting a user who has the cheapest computer is a burden and evidently so does Apple.

I say screw consumers. Apple needs to take back education. That's where you can sell computers at cost and then make it up in licensing on the backend. Apple needs to get Powerschool generating revenue. Once education is moving forward and Apple is generating some movement in the Enterprise then they can try to elimante the microsoft tax. I'm not saying I don't want Office but Apple needs to be pushing their own workflow.

Daveman Deluxe
Jun 11, 2004, 06:25 PM
I think the sweet spot for Apple would be something like this:

1.6 GHz G5
256 MB RAM, expandable to 2 GB (two slots)
80 GB HD (BTO up to 200 GB)
Combo drive (SuperDrive optional)
AirPort Extreme optional
Bluetooth optional
Radeon 9200 graphics (32 MB VRAM)
15" screen
$1200

1.8 GHz G5
256 MB RAM, expandable to 2 GB (two slots)
80 GB HD (BTO up to 200 GB)
SuperDrive
AirPort Extreme optional
Bluetooth optional
Radeon 9200 graphics (64 MB VRAM)
Optional Radeon 9600 graphics (64 MB VRAM)
17" screen
$1700

2.0 GHz G5
256 MB RAM expandable to 2 GB (two slots)
160 GB HD (BTO up to 250 GB)
SuperDrive
AirPort Extreme built in
Bluetooth built in
Radeon 9600 graphics (64 MB VRAM)
Optional Radeon 9700 (64/128 MB VRAM)
20" screen
$2100

Dont Hurt Me
Jun 11, 2004, 06:55 PM
Dave your a little weak on the graphics, if apple wants to turn this sinking ship around known as marketshare they will have to offer something competitive to PCs for around the same amount. 9200 radeon would be a joke as is Fx5200 right now. Sure you want to play using 640 x 480 they me be ok but this is year 2004 with graphic cards that exceeded those cards years ago. Im still amazed they are selling FX5200 in powermac but as i said before they are cheap to make,cheap to buy and apple has agreed to buy a boatload or has a warehouse over running with these things from poor selling imac and powermac sales this past year.

yoman
Jun 11, 2004, 06:58 PM
The new iMac should have:

8xSuperDrive
.....
But knowing Apple, it will have:
4xSuperDrive....


I'm pretty sure that the iMac will have an 8xsuperdrive, given that the eMac already has one.

rdowns
Jun 11, 2004, 07:42 PM
I'd love to see Apple offer true BTO iMacs.

Chose your processor- 1.6, 1,8, 2.0
Choose RAM- 256 MB, 512MB, 1GB
Choose HD- have 3 or 4 choices
Choose screen size- kill the 15" and offer 17" and 20"
Choose your optical drive- Combo or SuperDrive
Choose graphics card- 64 or 128 MB
BT
AE

Price them from $1600-$2000 or so. I might have offered too many RAm and HD options. I think this would be a major home run for Apple. Of course, they could have one standard 17" and 20" for retail purposes and allow you to BTO in their stores too.

Am I on crack?

Dont Hurt Me
Jun 11, 2004, 08:05 PM
I'd love to see Apple offer true BTO iMacs.

Chose your processor- 1.6, 1,8, 2.0
Choose RAM- 256 MB, 512MB, 1GB
Choose HD- have 3 or 4 choices
Choose screen size- kill the 15" and offer 17" and 20"
Choose your optical drive- Combo or SuperDrive
Choose graphics card- 64 or 128 MB
BT
AE

Price them from $1600-$2000 or so. I might have offered too many RAm and HD options. I think this would be a major home run for Apple. Of course, they could have one standard 17" and 20" for retail purposes and allow you to BTO in their stores too.

Am I on crack?Nope, they need to do something to turn around marketshare and what you propose would help but i doubt they have that much forsight. I hate to be a pessimist but i think the hardware guys will just keep fumbling around wanting top dollar for last years hardware. Look at Powermac. I am guessing a 1.6 G5 mated to (yuk) FX5200. is this going to make people become switchers? Doubt it but it might make a switcher out of me. ;)

PlaceofDis
Jun 11, 2004, 08:19 PM
Am I on crack?

no your not, but its probably just wishful thinking, i would like to see this too, as well as a headless imac, with perhaps an upgradable videocard, harddrive, ect, thats rather easy to do instead of the current imacs, wait i know! bring back the cube form factor! LOL

cubist
Jun 11, 2004, 08:47 PM
The new iMac should have:

8xSuperDrive
128MB Radeon9600XT
dual channel DDR400
2Ghz (90nm) G5

But knowing Apple, it will have:
4xSuperDrive
128MB GeforceFX5200
single channel DDR400
1.6Ghz (90nm) G5

Knowing Apple, it will have: 1.5GHz G4.

While it seems like we've been waiting a long time for such a lackluster upgrade, that, too, is par for the course.

QCassidy352
Jun 11, 2004, 09:22 PM
Knowing Apple, it will have: 1.5GHz G4.

While it seems like we've been waiting a long time for such a lackluster upgrade, that, too, is par for the course.

that would really be disappointing. If that happens, it surely will not be part of Jobs' keynote - he'd get booed off the stage! If that's all they were going to do, they should have done it months ago.

At this point imac sales must be close to zero. They are the specs of an emac for the price of a powermac. How could anyone buy one?

Daveman Deluxe
Jun 11, 2004, 09:33 PM
Dave your a little weak on the graphics, if apple wants to turn this sinking ship around known as marketshare they will have to offer something competitive to PCs for around the same amount. 9200 radeon would be a joke as is Fx5200 right now. Sure you want to play using 640 x 480 they me be ok but this is year 2004 with graphic cards that exceeded those cards years ago. Im still amazed they are selling FX5200 in powermac but as i said before they are cheap to make,cheap to buy and apple has agreed to buy a boatload or has a warehouse over running with these things from poor selling imac and powermac sales this past year.

Not so weak. At the price points I specified, Dell ships a GeForce FX5200 (albeit with 128 MB RAM) at the low end. That said, Dell does offer the 9800 at the top of my price structure. So maybe the range should be more like:

15": FX 5200 (64 or 128 MB) or Radeon 9600 (64 or 128 MB)
17": Radeon 9600 (64 or 128 MB) or Radeon 9700 (64 MB)
20: Radeon 9700 (128 MB) or 9800 (128 MB)

aafuss1
Jun 11, 2004, 10:09 PM
I don't expect a G5 based iMac anytime soon-seeing as Apple doesn't expect a G5 iMac or Powerbook this year.

aafuss1
Jun 11, 2004, 10:26 PM
Not so weak. At the price points I specified, Dell ships a GeForce FX5200 (albeit with 128 MB RAM) at the low end. That said, Dell does offer the 9800 at the top of my price structure. So maybe the range should be more like:

15": FX 5200 (64 or 128 MB) or Radeon 9600 (64 or 128 MB)
17": Radeon 9600 (64 or 128 MB) or Radeon 9700 (64 MB)
20: Radeon 9700 (128 MB) or 9800 (128 MB)


I have a 128MB FX5200 (the same amount of VRAM as Dell FX5200).

x86isslow
Jun 11, 2004, 10:38 PM
I have a 128MB FX5200 (the same amount of VRAM as Dell FX5200).

is it as bad as Don't Hurt Me makes it seem?

7on
Jun 11, 2004, 11:38 PM
I've never really understood videocard fanatics on the Mac. It's not like Macs need one. The most taxing software is prolly UT2004. Sure you'd be future proofing yourself, but videocards aren't usually at fault. My P3 800Mhz PC with a Geforce 3 can play GTA:VC pretty good. Even if I upgraded to a Raedon 9800, I think the bottleneck would be the proc.

Not saying a kick-ass GFX card or expandability option is a bad move, it's just not really a "must-have." The must have is getting away from Motorola and the 167Mhz FSB.

Chip NoVaMac
Jun 12, 2004, 07:54 AM
I think the sweet spot for Apple would be something like this:

1.6 GHz G5
256 MB RAM, expandable to 2 GB (two slots)
80 GB HD (BTO up to 200 GB)
Combo drive (SuperDrive optional)
AirPort Extreme optional
Bluetooth optional
Radeon 9200 graphics (32 MB VRAM)
15" screen
$1200

1.8 GHz G5
256 MB RAM, expandable to 2 GB (two slots)
80 GB HD (BTO up to 200 GB)
SuperDrive
AirPort Extreme optional
Bluetooth optional
Radeon 9200 graphics (64 MB VRAM)
Optional Radeon 9600 graphics (64 MB VRAM)
17" screen
$1700

2.0 GHz G5
256 MB RAM expandable to 2 GB (two slots)
160 GB HD (BTO up to 250 GB)
SuperDrive
AirPort Extreme built in
Bluetooth built in
Radeon 9600 graphics (64 MB VRAM)
Optional Radeon 9700 (64/128 MB VRAM)
20" screen
$2100

Hopefully you are right. Though I think that the entry level one will also have 64mb VRAM.

Chip NoVaMac
Jun 12, 2004, 07:57 AM
I don't expect a G5 based iMac anytime soon-seeing as Apple doesn't expect a G5 iMac or Powerbook this year.

I had only seen that there would be no PB G5 or a 3GHz G5 PM anytime soon...

Chip NoVaMac
Jun 12, 2004, 08:03 AM
I'd love to see Apple offer true BTO iMacs.

Chose your processor- 1.6, 1,8, 2.0
Choose RAM- 256 MB, 512MB, 1GB
Choose HD- have 3 or 4 choices
Choose screen size- kill the 15" and offer 17" and 20"
Choose your optical drive- Combo or SuperDrive
Choose graphics card- 64 or 128 MB
BT
AE

Price them from $1600-$2000 or so. I might have offered too many RAm and HD options. I think this would be a major home run for Apple. Of course, they could have one standard 17" and 20" for retail purposes and allow you to BTO in their stores too.

Am I on crack?

Nope. It makes sense, until you mention BTO in the retail stores. IMO the sweet spot for Apple is have "boxed" units with a set spec. The BTO option allows for a just in time inventory situation. Without the cost of warehousing units around the world. I am sure that they would prefer it if everyone would build to order.

aswitcher
Jun 12, 2004, 08:11 AM
Speeds look faster than I would expect. 1.8 is the highest I would expect...although for no good reason but concerns over heat and canabalising the powermac line...

I think the 15" is dead...17" minimium...maybe even a 23"

BT as standard. Maybe wifi also. More fuss and cost to option these at least on middle to high end machines in the iMac line.

64 Meg minimum VRAM...

I think the sweet spot for Apple would be something like this:

1.6 GHz G5
256 MB RAM, expandable to 2 GB (two slots)
80 GB HD (BTO up to 200 GB)
Combo drive (SuperDrive optional)
AirPort Extreme optional
Bluetooth optional
Radeon 9200 graphics (32 MB VRAM)
15" screen
$1200

1.8 GHz G5
256 MB RAM, expandable to 2 GB (two slots)
80 GB HD (BTO up to 200 GB)
SuperDrive
AirPort Extreme optional
Bluetooth optional
Radeon 9200 graphics (64 MB VRAM)
Optional Radeon 9600 graphics (64 MB VRAM)
17" screen
$1700

2.0 GHz G5
256 MB RAM expandable to 2 GB (two slots)
160 GB HD (BTO up to 250 GB)
SuperDrive
AirPort Extreme built in
Bluetooth built in
Radeon 9600 graphics (64 MB VRAM)
Optional Radeon 9700 (64/128 MB VRAM)
20" screen
$2100

Chip NoVaMac
Jun 12, 2004, 08:33 AM
I also hope that they have the OSX setup assistant in the new iMac G5 like they do with the new PM G5's....

rdowns
Jun 12, 2004, 08:50 AM
Nope. It makes sense, until you mention BTO in the retail stores. IMO the sweet spot for Apple is have "boxed" units with a set spec. The BTO option allows for a just in time inventory situation. Without the cost of warehousing units around the world. I am sure that they would prefer it if everyone would build to order.

I meant that you could order a BTO in their stores, not that they would actually build it there. Can't see how that would ever be cost effective.

rdowns
Jun 12, 2004, 08:53 AM
I also hope that they have the OSX setup assistant in the new iMac G5 like they do with the new PM G5's....

Just read about that. Very smart of Apple. Moving data and settings over has always been a hassle when upgrading.

They should come up with a way for Windows people to transfer data easily.

Dont Hurt Me
Jun 12, 2004, 08:54 AM
is it as bad as Don't Hurt Me makes it seem?As i stated before the FX5200 is dirt cheap and holds the bottom of new video cards title! See inside mac games,barefeats,eshop what have you.FX5200 can not go up on resolutions without a immediate drop in frames as soon as it goes to 800 x 600. take it to 1024 and its even worse. 3 year old geforce 3 is at least still a solid 800 x 600 card which fx5200 is not. Now factor price in for new Imacs and Powermacs and its clear Apple wants cream of the crop pricing for its computers but then builds them with leftovers from last years crop such as FX5200. Now this is in the age of 9800xts,5950s,X800s,6800s,and we are suppose to get excited about macs coming with 5200s??? Imac has to be able to do something about Macs marketshare. Apple has not had a winner since Imac crt. thats the just. they need a big hit, a big seller and something to get the PC users to say man i got to have a Imac. with FX5200 that will never happen and even 9600 gains only about a resolution before dropping those ever so coveted frames.Consumers are gamers and the young crowd(pod users) even more so. Todays Imac has become a overpriced failure in terms of sales for apple? why? G4 & Fx5200 is a dog plain and simple.

PS. Apple has lowered the price on refurbished 20" Imacs now to $1799, was 1899 before rev b powermac came out. I imagine they still have a lot to get rid of.

Chip NoVaMac
Jun 12, 2004, 09:20 AM
I meant that you could order a BTO in their stores, not that they would actually build it there. Can't see how that would ever be cost effective.

Sorry misunderstood....

I know many would like AE, memory, and HDD as options for the retail stores....

Mitthrawnuruodo
Jun 12, 2004, 09:24 AM
I wish the would kill off the iMac and introduse a fresh new machine for living room use.

Something, stunningly designed - of course - you could have hooked up to a an Apple Display (the NEW line of LCDs), your TV (ordinary or even better Plasma/LCD TV or projector) and your HiFi (wirelessly thanks to APEx) and let you surf the net and do anything else you want to do on your computer from your favorite chair/sofa using Bluetooth keyboard/mouse...

If the formfactor could be something like an amplifier/tuner/VCR so it could fit in a standard HiFi bench then even better...

Chip NoVaMac
Jun 12, 2004, 09:34 AM
I wish the would kill off the iMac and introduse a fresh new machine for living room use.

Something, stunningly designed - of course - you could have hooked up to a an Apple Display (the NEW line of LCDs), your TV (ordinary or even better Plasma/LCD TV or projector) and your HiFi (wirelessly thanks to APEx) and let you surf the net and do anything else you want to do on your computer from your favorite chair/sofa using Bluetooth keyboard/mouse...

If the formfactor could be something like an amplifier/tuner/VCR so it could fit in a standard HiFi bench then even better...

It still could be an imac, since the "New iMac" is the second form factor for the iMac series. But I guess it would be hard to name the "New New iMac".

Dont Hurt Me
Jun 12, 2004, 09:51 AM
Steve has allways been anti TV just look at some of his stupid comments so i doubt very much that they would bring Imac into the living room. maybe another device. It still amazes me they didnt integrate the phone and Tv into the Mac or should i say digital hub.

BakedBeans
Jun 12, 2004, 10:10 AM
imacs, i love them, although imho they need an update like last year,

so dhm, i dont think they are going to go super high specs on the graphics card i think they should offer a setup like this

1.6ghz G5 - 15inch
256mb ram ((upgrade to 2gb))
ati 9600 64mb ((same as the old 2ghz G5))
8x superdrive
80 gb hd ((upgradeable))


1.6ghz G5 - 17 inch
512mb ram ((upgradeable to 2gb))
ati9600 64mb ((upgradeable to a good 9600xt 128mb))
8x superdrive
80gb hd ((upgradeable))

1.8ghz - 17inch and 20inch ((i know they wont btw)
512mb ram ((upgrade to 2gb))
ati 9600xt/9800 128mb as standard
8x sd
160gb hd



this way they wont be stepping on the shoes of the powermacs (to hard)
and they imo should not offer a 256mb card in the imac
they would sell like hot cakes

oh and dhm....fx 5200 standardin powermacs.....whats that all about????

Dont Hurt Me
Jun 12, 2004, 10:21 AM
imacs, i love them, although imho they need an update like last year,

so dhm, i dont think they are going to go super high specs on the graphics card i think they should offer a setup like this

1.6ghz G5 - 15inch
256mb ram ((upgrade to 2gb))
ati 9600 64mb ((same as the old 2ghz G5))
8x superdrive
80 gb hd ((upgradeable))


1.6ghz G5 - 17 inch
512mb ram ((upgradeable to 2gb))
ati9600 64mb ((upgradeable to a good 9600xt 128mb))
8x superdrive
80gb hd ((upgradeable))

1.8ghz - 17inch and 20inch ((i know they wont btw)
512mb ram ((upgrade to 2gb))
ati 9600xt/9800 128mb as standard
8x sd
160gb hd



this way they wont be stepping on the shoes of the powermacs (to hard)
and they imo should not offer a 256mb card in the imac
they would sell like hot cakes

oh and dhm....fx 5200 standardin powermacs.....whats that all about????Looks pretty good but i really doubt they will get imac to even your specs, hardware guys are just lost these days or should i say years.

x86isslow
Jun 12, 2004, 12:10 PM
imacs, i love them, although imho they needed an update like last year,

so dhm, i dont think they are going to go super high specs on the graphics card i think they should offer a setup like this

1.6ghz G5 - 15inch
256mb ram ((upgrade to 2gb))
ati 9600 64mb ((same as the old 2ghz G5))
8x superdrive
80 gb hd ((upgradeable))


1.6ghz G5 - 17 inch
512mb ram ((upgradeable to 2gb))
ati9600 64mb ((upgradeable to a good 9600xt 128mb))
8x superdrive
80gb hd ((upgradeable))

1.8ghz - 17inch and 20inch ((i know they wont btw)
512mb ram ((upgrade to 2gb))
ati 9600xt/9800 128mb as standard
8x sd
160gb hd



this way they wont be stepping on the shoes of the powermacs (to hard)
and they imo should not offer a 256mb card in the imac
they would sell like hot cakes

oh and dhm....fx 5200 standardin powermacs.....whats that all about????

An interesting line up, but given that Apple had the audacity to put two 128MB ramchips in a $2000 machine, i think we can expect maybe two 64 MB chips for a total of 128MB standard ram :rolleyes: