TOMTOM probably going to be better, but.... [Archive]

fuzion11

Jul 25, 2009, 01:22 PM

I'm sure of it, TOMTOM will be the clear winner over all from the two. Navigon vs TOMTOM!!

But, the but in my title imo only represents the fact Navigon's mapping system is stored on your device. You never have to pay additoinal charges if you're in an opposing country. For you people located in the States who don't travel to Canada it might not be huge for you. I'm from Toronto and often travel to the States...I love your country.

I will not say I know 100 percent, but I think since TOMTOM will have, not sure the exact name of the feature, but I believe it's something like, up to date routes, or maybe intelligent routes/mapping...where it sends road work and the like to your iPhone. So I don't think it's going to be stored in your memory like Navigon is.

Anyhow what do you all think, after 6 mths of sales who will be in the lead, profit wise?

philgilder

Jul 25, 2009, 01:38 PM

Navigon will also have a traffic and road works system implemented later this summer.

And it is likely tomtom will store all maps on the iPhone, as they do on all other mobile devices

Tomtom will probably be the 'winner' in terms of profit as it is a bigger name, but this by no means shows that it is any better than the navigon app. And remember, navigon have a month lead at the moment (in europe etc) and tomtom is still a way off

QuarterSwede

Jul 25, 2009, 02:01 PM

I see TomTom as the clear winner only because they have the dock windshield mount which makes it a useful turn-by-turn GPS

Revelation78

Jul 25, 2009, 02:05 PM

I see TomTom as the clear winner only because they have the dock windshield mount which makes it a useful turn-by-turn GPS

Completely agree!

I'm from Toronto and often travel to the States...I love your country.

Thanks! I love Canadian women...

ct2k7

Jul 25, 2009, 02:06 PM

I think TomTom said that the maps will be stored on the phone itself, with stuff like THC and TMC streamed in when available, although, that TMC is channelled accross radio waves in the UK iirc.

avaloncourt

Jul 25, 2009, 02:44 PM

I will not say I know 100 percent, but I think since TOMTOM will have, not sure the exact name of the feature, but I believe it's something like, up to date routes, or maybe intelligent routes/mapping...where it sends road work and the like to your iPhone. So I don't think it's going to be stored in your memory like Navigon is.

There are two things TomTom has. According to the recent LA Times article which had quotes from the TomTom vice-president, IQRoutes will be in the iPhone version. IQRoutes aggregates data about actual driving speeds and presents "IQ" routing options based on historical data.

On the other hand, MapShare may not be in the iPhone version. The TomTom VP was quoted as not knowing if they were going to include that. I am hoping for MapShare and it would make huge sense for an iPhone and it's connected goodness. MapShare allows you to point out closed roads, construction, changes in road names and POI's, and other issues. With a traditional TomTom GPS you have to sync the GPS to them via your computer. Most people wouldn't likely bother pulling it out of the car, connecting it to the computer and using their software to sync it. With millions of iPhones they could have instantaneous updating. It would be a far more timely and accurate way of providing data. I've been waiting for this feature and then the TomTom VP had to pull the 'don't know if it will be included.' :(

With a traditional TomTom both the MapShare and IQRoutes data for your use gets processed through on the computer syncing. The IQRoutes probably only gets quarterly historical traffic updates much like the Dash Express did. That would be wrapped into their subscription map upgrade model. The MapShare has to be processed on the fly in syncing processes. Unless it's going to be tied strictly to iTunes syncing or WiFi it's going to have to use cell data.

avaloncourt

Jul 25, 2009, 02:45 PM

I think TomTom said that the maps will be stored on the phone itself

That was in the LA Times article. It will be just under 1GB.

co.ag.2005

Jul 25, 2009, 03:09 PM

I see TomTom as the clear winner only because they have the dock windshield mount which makes it a useful turn-by-turn GPS

Not necessarily... I use the Griffin WindowSeat (http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/windowseat) + the Griffin PowerJolt (http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/powerjoltiphone) alongside the G-Map U.S. West TBT navigation app.

This combination works wonderfully well and I didn't spend a whole lot on it. Plus I don't need the external speaker of the Tom Tom dock, TBT voice is annoying.... my $0.02...

philgilder

Jul 25, 2009, 03:18 PM

Not necessarily... I use the Griffin WindowSeat (http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/windowseat) + the Griffin PowerJolt (http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/powerjoltiphone) alongside the G-Map U.S. West TBT navigation app.

This combination works wonderfully well and I didn't spend a whole lot on it. Plus I don't need the external speaker of the Tom Tom dock, TBT voice is annoying.... my $0.02...
I agree.. i have a £5 mount and an aux input in my car, and it works perfectly. Navigon is accurate to within a metre!

stockcerts

Jul 25, 2009, 03:58 PM

I bought Navigon yesterday and I'm very pleased with it. I was using a three year old Nuvi. There are some things I miss about the Nuvi, but I love the lane assist and the fact that Navigon knows the speed limits and provides a warning when you exceed it by a pre-determined amount.

Navigon picks up the GPS signal typically in under 5 seconds. I'm more than happy so far, and I'm looking forward to future updates. I'm sure they know what it takes to stay competitive and I doubt they'll let any competitors just blow them out of the water with feature set.

Pika

Jul 25, 2009, 03:59 PM

I cant wait for TomTom... I refuse to buy Navigon before TomTom's release. WAIT...WAIT..WAIT people

philgilder

Jul 25, 2009, 04:09 PM

I cant wait for TomTom... I refuse to buy Navigon before TomTom's release. WAIT...WAIT..WAIT people
why? why do people seem to think only tomtom know how to make a sat nav?

as stockcerts says, I'm sure they know what it takes to stay competitive and I doubt they'll let any competitors just blow them out of the water with feature set.

avaloncourt

Jul 25, 2009, 04:28 PM

I bought Navigon yesterday and I'm very pleased with it. I was using a three year old Nuvi. There are some things I miss about the Nuvi, but I love the lane assist

I have a Navigon hardware GPS and this developed into one of its strongest features. It was horrible a few years ago but they got on it and I haven't seen another that matches it. It really shines when you have complex exits followed immediately by another exit. You'll get the lane assist with a turn indication stacked on top of that.

and the fact that Navigon knows the speed limits and provides a warning when you exceed it by a pre-determined amount.

Don't rely on this at all. Their speed database is horribly flawed. On Interstates you'll run into 65mph sections that it thinks are 55. So, while you're flying along at 70 it thinks you're 15mph over speed. The only way to counter this is to set the threshold higher but then you won't get warnings when you really need them for legitimate speeds. On regular roads you'll find errors as great as 45mph roads being marked as 25mph. Over time you'll find it will give you bad speed warnings so often you'll end up turning it off because it keeps yelling at you every minute that you're over speed when you're not. This is probably the second worst function of the GPS.

yg17

Jul 25, 2009, 05:38 PM

I have a Navigon hardware GPS and this developed into one of its strongest features. It was horrible a few years ago but they got on it and I haven't seen another that matches it. It really shines when you have complex exits followed immediately by another exit. You'll get the lane assist with a turn indication stacked on top of that.

Don't rely on this at all. Their speed database is horribly flawed. On Interstates you'll run into 65mph sections that it thinks are 55. So, while you're flying along at 70 it thinks you're 15mph over speed. The only way to counter this is to set the threshold higher but then you won't get warnings when you really need them for legitimate speeds. On regular roads you'll find errors as great as 45mph roads being marked as 25mph. Over time you'll find it will give you bad speed warnings so often you'll end up turning it off because it keeps yelling at you every minute that you're over speed when you're not. This is probably the second worst function of the GPS.

My Garmin Nuvi 765 has speed limits and it's spot on. I just completed a long road trip with it, and when I passed a speed limit sign, going from say a 70 to a 65 mph zone, the Garmin updated the screen within maybe 10 feet of me passing the speed limit sign. I'm not sure about non-interstate accuracy though, normally I don't pay attention to it as I just move with the flow of traffic on surface streets. But still, I wouldn't rely on it, as it doesn't know about temporary reductions for construction zones and whatnot, so it's still a good idea to pay attention. It's a nice reference, but I don't think "Officer, my GPS said the speed limit was 75 so that's why I was going that fast in the one lane construction zone back there" is going to get you out of a ticket

Lane Assist on my Nuvi was helpful as well, especially when I was in Toronto where there are many lanes and many complicated interchanges. I wish they'd cover more of the country with lane assist though, many of the areas I was driving through I didn't have lane assist; although when you're on an interstate in the middle of nowhere and need to change to a different interstate, it's usually 2 lanes each direction so you've got a 50% chance of being right, it does tell you whether the exit is on the left or right so that's usually all you need to know to be in the correct lane.

ct2k7

Jul 25, 2009, 06:32 PM

That was in the LA Times article. It will be just under 1GB.

Thought so.. argh brilliant, that's 1GB of space gawn :(

stockcerts

Jul 25, 2009, 06:48 PM

stockcerts

Jul 25, 2009, 06:50 PM

I cant wait for TomTom... I refuse to buy Navigon before TomTom's release. WAIT...WAIT..WAIT people

I'm a believer in patience, but you can always be waiting for the next faster computer, next release of software, and in the mean time you do with out. I'm very happy with my purchase! A few years ago I bought a Garmin Nuvi and steered away from Tom Tom as everyone I know who had one wasn't happy with it. I know some that returned them after a very short time.

ct2k7

Jul 25, 2009, 06:57 PM

I'm a believer in patience, but you can always be waiting for the next faster computer, next release of software, and in the mean time you do with out. I'm very happy with my purchase! A few years ago I bought a Garmin Nuvi and steered away from Tom Tom as everyone I know who had one wasn't happy with it. I know some that returned them after a very short time.

You'll be waiting forever.... and ever.... anand ever....and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever.... and ever....

you get the picture now I hope.

avaloncourt

Jul 25, 2009, 08:43 PM

Thought so.. argh brilliant, that's 1GB of space gawn :(

The official quote from the VP of TomTom was 0.9GB. Sorry. At least that's a smaller footprint than Navigon.

avaloncourt

Jul 25, 2009, 08:50 PM

I can't believe all the negative posts about Navigon. The lane assist is awesome, as some else stated..it's great for those tricky interchanges. Not only does it show you a picture of the exit lanes, it shows you the freeway signs exactly how they appear. I don't think it's flawed, and I haven't seen a single instance of the speed indicators being wrong.

You've got your terminology wrong. The "picture" view for Navigon with the arrows showing you the exiting route is called "Reality View." That's not Lane Assist. Lane Assist is a small "icon" in the corner that shows the number of lanes and then orange stripes the ones you can be in to exit properly. For instance, one of the more complicated I've seen displayed has four lanes expanding into six lanes with the second and third lanes striped in orange.

Lane assist is shown below on the right edge. The more complicated version I've seen in real life had two additional lanes as compared to the picture:

http://gpstracklog.com/images/2008/09/13/navigon_2000s.jpg

This is Reality View:

http://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/navigon_reality.jpg

As far as speed indicators being wrong, try driving in northeast Ohio. Start at the PA border and drive west on the roads. Within 30 minutes you'll be yelling at the GPS to shut up.

fuzion11

Jul 26, 2009, 06:36 AM

Thought so.. argh brilliant, that's 1GB of space gawn :(

You just took up 1gb of space with that last post! LOL

fuzion11

Jul 26, 2009, 06:46 AM

fuzion11

Jul 26, 2009, 06:50 AM

Thought so.. argh brilliant, that's 1GB of space gawn :(

You just took up 1gb of space with that last post! LOL

ct2k7

Jul 26, 2009, 07:01 AM

You just took up 1gb of space with that last post! LOL

:eek:

The official quote from the VP of TomTom was 0.9GB. Sorry. At least that's a smaller footprint than Navigon.

It was a 200M download for me in UK

You just took up 1gb of space with that last post! LOL

:eek:

speakerwizard

Jul 26, 2009, 07:10 AM

i have navigon, i dont trust tomtom as they are trying to push hardware sale with there software to boost signal, Ive never had a gps signal problem, so are they saying there software isnt good? haha

alphaod

Jul 26, 2009, 07:14 AM

philgilder

Jul 26, 2009, 08:27 AM

Another couple of reasons why I think I'll wait for tomtom are the fact it has the mount...which provides a great place to view the device, instead of in your lap. Charges your iPhone, gives speaker phone...which is huge. According to tomtom it will increase your gps antenna.
a mount can be bought for very little. as can a car charger and many modern cars will have an aux input, rendering the advantages of the tomtom dock useless as it can be easily replicated for what will be a fraction of the cost

tomtom are pushing the dock a lot as it 'improves' gps signal, but many people say just the iPhone gps is more than enough

i have navigon, i dont trust tomtom as they are trying to push hardware sale with there software to boost signal, Ive never had a gps signal problem, so are they saying there software isnt good? haha
:D

Tunnelrunner

Jul 26, 2009, 09:03 AM

The official quote from the VP of TomTom was 0.9GB. Sorry. At least that's a smaller footprint than Navigon.

That's not so bad when you consider how many maps you have store compared to a game like Myst which is 750MB. :p

It's downright impressive if this thing is going to be only 1GB in size! I have to check the specs again but I know both Navigon and Sygic weigh in at about 1.5 to 2GB in size. We're talking Big Boys here.

The smaller (relatively) speaking size of the TomTom app will be another feather in it's cap. I just hope they release it soon. IIRC, someone on these forums (can't remember who) had quoted TomTom customer support as saying that the app would launch at the end of this month at the same time the car kit comes out -- he had also said that this would also be around the same time Navigon launched. Well Navigon just launched last week and if there's any truth to that, perhaps the TomTom launch could happen this upcoming week?

EDIT: Navigon NAM is 1.29 GB, Sygic NAM is 1.62 GB.

avaloncourt

Jul 26, 2009, 09:55 AM

My next question for you all would be.....

How much better will tomtom's mount make the gps antenna on the iPhone, compared to a naked approch from Navigon??

TomTom's GPS antenna isn't going to make the GPS antenna on the phone better at all. The mount has its own antenna and the GPS antenna in the phone will be bypassed while in the dock. A GPS only uses one antenna at a time.

As for the difference, it woud be significant. The internal GPS antenna of an iPhone is tiny. There are teardown pictures online that show the antenna plane of an iPhone. A GPS patch antenna is significantly larger. TomTom would be using a traditional patch antenna in the dock which would have significant signal retention and stability advantages. I just looked up typical patch sizes and a "medium" antenna is approximately 1" square. That's larger than the the entire antenna plane of the iPhone which contains the GPS and cellular antennas.

To give a real-world example of usability, I have attempted to do Geocaching with my iPhone and it did a terrible job. Any level of tree canopy and the error grew to >300 feet. That is completely unusable for Geocaching purposes as it becomes a needle in the haystack. The only way I could use my phone was to be in an area with a completely unrestricted view of the sky.

Unfortunately, developers have no access to individual signal levels for the internal receiver so no application exists that has a display of every signal channel as you would find in a typical handheld GPS. That's likely to be intentional as Apple probably doesn't want that to be seen.

avaloncourt

Jul 26, 2009, 10:36 AM

I just hope they release it soon. IIRC, someone on these forums (can't remember who) had quoted TomTom customer support as saying that the app would launch at the end of this month at the same time the car kit comes out -- he had also said that this would also be around the same time Navigon launched. Well Navigon just launched last week and if there's any truth to that, perhaps the TomTom launch could happen this upcoming week?

I wouldn't recommend you hold your breath on that one. I posted a link to another article from four days ago with quotes from TomTom's president in which he said the dock would be available through TomTom's usual retail channels as well as "hopefully" from Apple. Hopefully? That tells me they haven't worked out the sales through the Apple stores. If he's saying hopefully as recently as this week then they certainly don't have the dock even in stock to sell. I never saw the quote you mentioned from the CSR you're referring to but I think the President of TomTom is a little higher on the food chain. :)

cc999

Jul 26, 2009, 10:40 AM

Do NOT rule out Navigon:

NAVIGON REVIEW
First off I was a little skeptical to spend 69.99 after reading the various complaints here. All I can say is that I am so glad I did make the purchase. This program is fantastic!

GPS - This is the single most important aspect of any navigation program. After launching program GPS was initiated within 10 seconds. I used this on a 3 hour trip to NY State in the middle of nowhere. My GPS signal was superb. here is something tat surprised the heck out of me. I was in a portion of the trip where I had NO SERVICE on my phone. The whole time I has no phone service the GPS was running perfectly! I was shocked. I though that the GPS signal depended on the telephone signal triangulation. Boy was I wrong. Cudos to the iPhone GPS chip and the Navigon team. I NEVER lost GPS signal the whole 3 hours and believe me I was in the middle of nowhere (Roxbury, NY).

SCREEN - Very clear and easy to read. Maps names are not as detailed as my Garmin 660 but the main roads were there.

VOICE - The voice was loud and clear thru the iphone speaker. I have seen complaints on this but I was happy with the volume. Even though all strrt names are NOT in the speech I did notice major routes were spoken by the voice part of the program.

Overall this program worked better then expected. I ran it side by side with my Garmin 660 (with updated maps) and it was dead on exact. Voice prompts and a wrong turn calculation was just as quick as the Garmin.

Overall I HIGHLY RECOMMEND this program. I am perfectly happy with the performance and it can defiantly replace my Garmin. I have Garmin mobile on my Blackberry and I can tell you this is just as good.

Charlie C

PsyD4Me

Jul 26, 2009, 10:42 AM

I see TomTom as the clear winner only because they have the dock windshield mount which makes it a useful turn-by-turn GPS

i don't need more clutter in my car....Navigon is worth every penny.

avaloncourt

Jul 26, 2009, 10:53 AM

Overall this program worked better then expected. I ran it side by side with my Garmin 660 (with updated maps) and it was dead on exact.

There's an obvious reason for that. Garmin uses Navteq maps. Navigon bought Navteq in 2006.

TomTom owns TeleAtlas.

coolbreeze

Jul 26, 2009, 12:29 PM

Hopefully TomTom will release some details this upcoming week. I'm ready buy a GPS app and Navigon is looking better and better. TomTom is very close to losing my sale (and many others...)

m3coolpix

Jul 26, 2009, 12:55 PM

I see TomTom as the clear winner only because they have the dock windshield mount which makes it a useful turn-by-turn GPS

I don't agree with this statement at all.

I've used Navigon for 4 days now. 2 days worth of traveling the Dallas Fort Worth metroplex (over 70 miles a day through many mixmaster/turnpike/suburban areas), and a 600 mile roadtrip from DFW to Houston (and even into very rural areas) the past 2 days.

Navigon got it all spot on for me. It works very well as a TBT software package on the iPhone. Even works great 'backgrounded' with another app (I was using the Sirius/XM app) loaded and running.

Yes, I had a couple GPS signal drops, but that was my own fault of hand holding the iPhone in my vehicle. Signal re-acquisition and the necessary reroute happened within seconds for me. As others have reported, using the Navigon software on the iPhone with a mount that keeps it under the windshield has worked extremely well. I'm searching for a good mount solution for my vehicle. Probably a ProClip or similar.

Tom Tom's advantage is going to be that they have had at least a month of using/evaluating Navigon's software, so that they can specifically address complaints on the Navigon interface, to make their software package better. I don't care for their mount/external antenna solution, as it doesn't suit how I want the iPhone setup in my vehicle.

I've got Navigon already doing what I need, everywhere I've gone. I can't wait to see the Navigon updates as these two software packages duke it out.

OneMike

Jul 26, 2009, 01:06 PM

I just want to see what the price will be.

ntrigue

Jul 26, 2009, 01:45 PM

The critical reason I won't use either is background tasking.

Suppose I receive a text message during a complicated transition.
Suppose I wish to listen to my iPod while using Navigation.
Suppose a call rings through at a critical junction.
I'd like to listen to Last.FM while navigating.
...the list goes on. Do those of you with Navigon just forfeit your iPhone functionality?

philgilder

Jul 26, 2009, 02:06 PM

Suppose I wish to listen to my iPod while using Navigation
...the list goes on. Do those of you with Navigon just forfeit your iPhone functionality?
navigon works fine with the ipod. just make a playlist
navigon also quietens the ipod music when there are verbal instructions, making them very easy to hear

Pika

Jul 26, 2009, 02:23 PM

Wait for TomTom people wait !!!

ct2k7

Jul 26, 2009, 02:25 PM

Wait for TomTom people wait !!!

Yes... I'll wait until I no longer need it... :/ Navigon currently has my money.

avaloncourt

Jul 26, 2009, 02:47 PM

navigon works fine with the ipod. just make a playlist
navigon also quietens the ipod music when there are verbal instructions, making them very easy to hear

It dumps the navigation in favor of a phone call, right?

Pika

Jul 26, 2009, 02:59 PM

Yes... I'll wait until I no longer need it... :/ Navigon currently has my money.
I will laugh at you if TomTom is better then Navigon.

ct2k7

Jul 26, 2009, 03:00 PM

I will laugh at you if TomTom is better then Navigon.

Erm... aren't I to be the judge at that? I required the navigation software about 6 times in the past two weeks whilst I was in London. It got me there, safe and sound, and therefore fulfilled my expectations.

SpaceKitty

Jul 26, 2009, 04:10 PM

Yes... I'll wait until I no longer need it... :/ Navigon currently has my money.

Same/ TomTom loses simply because they waited entirely too long. Navigon is excellent.

I like how it displays more street names than my Garmin. The only negative I found was that every other citiy is shaded differently. The olive green color makes the street names almost impossible to read. The next city over will be shaded a lighter color again. I had to use night mode to avoid this.

So, I bought Navigon, Sygic and G-Map. I don't have money to buy TomTom. Don't need to with Navigon.

philgilder

Jul 26, 2009, 04:16 PM

It dumps the navigation in favor of a phone call, right?
yes, as will the tomtom app and all other (sat-nav) apps

avaloncourt

Jul 26, 2009, 05:01 PM

yes, as will the tomtom app and all other (sat-nav) apps

That's incorrect. TomTom has stated simultaneous call and navigation. That would appear why they are tying calls to the Bluetooth speakerphone. They're routing calls over Bluetooth. Your music remains on the audio port to connect to a car with an audio cable. This is why I don't understand the rush to Navigon. You'll be able to have GPS and phone and music simultaneously on TomTom. It would make sense to wait and see how well the implementation works. You would only lose calls on TomTom if you chose not use their dock and then, yes, you would be just like all other satellite navigation applications.

vertigo235

Jul 26, 2009, 05:20 PM

That's incorrect. TomTom has stated simultaneous call and navigation. That would appear why they are tying calls to the Bluetooth speakerphone. They routing calls over Bluetooth. Your music remains on the audio port to connect to a car with an audio cable. This is why I don't understand the rush to Navigon. You'll be able to have GPS and phone and music simultaneously on TomTom. It would make sense to wait and see how well the implementation works. You would only lose calls on TomTom if you chose not use their dock and then, yes, you would be just like all other satellite navigation applications.

I'm going to attempt to call bs here. Can you please provide link or source for this.

avaloncourt

Jul 26, 2009, 05:25 PM

I'm going to attempt to call bs here. Can you please provide link or source for this.

I'm not going to go back and repost every link I've posted on Macrumors already for nearly two months. There have been a lot of them. I've posted articles from a number of newspapers, magazines and technology sites. You can either search out every linked post I've made or do the searches yourself. Use search or be lazy. Everything I've posted has come from articles stating either quotes from the President or the VicePresent of TomTom and every one of these posts have been in the primary discussion threads. It's not my fault you haven't paid attention.

philgilder

Jul 26, 2009, 06:30 PM

That's incorrect. TomTom has stated simultaneous call and navigation. That would appear why they are tying calls to the Bluetooth speakerphone. They're routing calls over Bluetooth. Your music remains on the audio port to connect to a car with an audio cable. This is why I don't understand the rush to Navigon. You'll be able to have GPS and phone and music simultaneously on TomTom. It would make sense to wait and see how well the implementation works. You would only lose calls on TomTom if you chose not use their dock and then, yes, you would be just like all other satellite navigation applications.
well, in my car i have built in bluetooth so all calls are routed over bluetooth, and audio is via aux out, exactly as the tomtom dock will work
yet still i get 'dumped' to the phone screen. this cannot be changed as it is due to the way apple have programmed the iphone, calls cannot be run in the background (straight away, once a call is initiated the home button can be pressed but this is different)

also, there are many different conflicting articles - all apparently coming from the president etc
and finally, if it were possible to do simultaneous calls and gps, would tomtom not have highlighted this at the WWDC keynote? if it were possible it would be a major feature they would have highlighted

blueprint1983

Jul 26, 2009, 06:38 PM

I'm not going to go back and repost every link I've posted on Macrumors already for nearly two months. There have been a lot of them. I've posted articles from a number of newspapers, magazines and technology sites. You can either search out every linked post I've made or do the searches yourself. Use search or be lazy. Everything I've posted has come from articles stating either quotes from the President or the VicePresent of TomTom and every one of these posts have been in the primary discussion threads. It's not my fault you haven't paid attention.

translation: "sorry you haven't been reading macrumors 24/7 for the past 2 months otherwise you would know that these RUMORS are true for this UNRELEASED app":rolleyes:

Pika

Jul 26, 2009, 06:42 PM

Erm... aren't I to be the judge at that? I required the navigation software about 6 times in the past two weeks whilst I was in London. It got me there, safe and sound, and therefore fulfilled my expectations.Same with Google Earth & Apple's Maps.

avaloncourt

Jul 26, 2009, 06:54 PM

translation: "sorry you haven't been reading macrumors 24/7 for the past 2 months otherwise you would know that these RUMORS are true for this UNRELEASED app":rolleyes:

I'd put value in statements from the President and VP of TomTom. That's all I post, articles with direct quotes from people who actually have something to do with the application. There were never any RUMORS involved. Period. Unlike many who just make crap up I point to sources who have direct quotes. :rolleyes:

avaloncourt

Jul 26, 2009, 07:01 PM

well, in my car i have built in bluetooth so all calls are routed over bluetooth, and audio is via aux out, exactly as the tomtom dock will work

Well, no it isn't. If they make a bluetooth connection from within the application using the accessory framework (just as stated that they'll utilize within the WWDC video) then it doesn't have to hand it off.

calls cannot be run in the background

Are you a developer to know this isn't possible with 3.x?

also, there are many different conflicting articles - all apparently coming from the president etc

I haven't seen any conflict yet in any major media or respectable website quote. Can you tell me what conflict has been stated so far? I've posted a lot of articles here and have yet to see a conflict in the content of the quotes for any of them. The only thing I've ever seen is them specifically not commenting on release dates. People here keep saying the "release date" is late summer. I've never seen "late summer" used officially in anything. He stated this summer in the WWDC video, it's coming soon on the website, and was quoted in one article as later this summer in an article.

and finally, if it were possible to do simultaneous calls and gps, would tomtom not have highlighted this at the WWDC keynote? if it were possible it would be a major feature they would have highlighted

The Bluetooth speakerphone wasn't even mentioned either within the WWDC video but the TomTom VP and several other sources say the cradle has it. While he never used the word simultaneous he did state that use of the cradle can handle hands-free calliing, GPS and music and that statement was made specifically related to the cradle There was nothing more nor less specific than that. A lot of people falsely reported that the cradle would have an FM transmitter and that was squashed within two articles that said it had to be a hard cable connection to the audio port on the dock. The video was only a few minutes long. More information came out later from people who spoke to those two TomTom corporate officers.

As I've written here a couple of times before, my only concern is the quote from the TomTom president last week stating that "hopefully" the dock would be sold by Apple. Why wouldn't it be? Apple stores are filled with dozens of cases. This isn't some odd, unknown item. That tells you right there that nothing is finalized and obviously if it's "hopefully" then there is no stock in the pipeline to get to stores yet. Obviously, there's a delay going on for some reason. I'm not holding my breath for a short term release.

philgilder

Jul 26, 2009, 07:23 PM

Well, no it isn't. If they make a bluetooth connection from within the application using the accessory framework (just as stated that they'll utilize within the WWDC video) then it doesn't have to hand it off.
how do you know this? the SDK allows devs to connect to bluetooth devices, but if it were a handsfree device, it would still use the standard phone app to handle calls - which kicks you out of any app when a call comes in

Are you a developer to know this isn't possible with 3.x?
no, but you can see whenever a call comes in, in any app, it comes up with the calling screen. if it did not, there is not an on-screen way to answer or reject the call

from this link (http://www.pcworld.com/article/167906/tomtom_for_iphone_en_route.html), Tom Murray (VP for market development) says
There are also logistical issues. For example, because the iPhone doesn't support background processes, any navigation app must shut down during phone calls, making real-time tracking difficult

I haven't seen any conflict yet in any major media or respectable website quote. Can you tell me what conflict has been stated so far? I've posted a lot of articles here and have yet to see a conflict in the content of the quotes for any of them. The only thing I've ever seen is them specifically not commenting on release dates. People here keep saying the "release date" is late summer. I've never seen "late summer" used officially in anything. He stated this summer in the WWDC video, it's coming soon on the website, and was quoted in one article as later this summer in an article.
there are many reports on the internet with conflicting info, such as whether the app will store map data on the device or download it OTA, or whether it will be a subscription bassed app or a one off payment.
but as you said: I'm not going to go back and repost every link I've posted on Macrumors already for nearly two months

The Bluetooth speakerphone wasn't even mentioned either within the WWDC video but the TomTom VP and several other sources say the cradle has it. While he never used the word simultaneous he did state that use of the cradle can handle hands-free calliing, GPS and music and that statement was made specifically related to the cradle. There was nothing more nor less specific than that. A lot of people falsely reported that the cradle would have an FM transmitter and that was squashed within two articles that said it had to be a hard cable connection to the audio port on the dock. The video was only a few minutes long. More information came out later from people who spoke to those two TomTom corporate officers.
so how can you say that "TomTom has stated simultaneous call and navigation.". You've just completely contradicted yourself

vertigo235

Jul 26, 2009, 07:30 PM

We'll just have to wait and see.

I have NAVIGON and I really like it, I'll still see what TomTom has to offer.

I have a feeling though that TomTom will wait until they have everything inside that they plan to offer, they will release it, and that's what we'll probably get.

Based on what I'm hearing and seeing from NAVIGON, it looks like they plan to constantly be updating their app. They also seem to be pretty open about their plans etc, where TomTom is like a secret government organization.

avaloncourt

Jul 26, 2009, 07:34 PM

from this link (http://www.pcworld.com/article/167906/tomtom_for_iphone_en_route.html), it says
There are also logistical issues. For example, because the iPhone doesn't support background processes, any navigation app must shut down during phone calls, making real-time tracking difficult

I don't put faith in that quote because that's the article author stating that based on how he has seen the iPhone work with applications. That isn't a quote nor was anything asked of the TomTom VP about it.

there are many reports on the internet with conflicting info, such as whether the app will store map data on the device or download it OTA, or whether it will be a subscription bassed app or a one off payment.
but as you said: I'm not going to go back and repost every link I've posted on Macrumors already for nearly two months

There has never once been any conflicting piece of information from any TomTom officer quoted on how the maps would be stored (OTA or download). As a matter of fact, the TomTom president outright directly stated it's a download and that same article stated they aren't going with a monthly subscription model. Never once was there ever a quote from either one about a monthly subscription model. You're repeating guesses people have made in articles. I said something that came from a quote. Period.

so how can you say that "TomTom has stated simultaneous call and navigation.". You've just completely contradicted yourself

No, I didn't. You made only reference to the few minutes of the WWDC video. I was CLEARLY responding to that. The comments regarding call management came from an article, again, as I stated before. Did you read the last sentence of what you quoted?

philgilder

Jul 26, 2009, 07:53 PM

I don't put faith in that quote because that's the article author stating that based on how he has seen the iPhone work with applications. That isn't a quote nor was anything asked of the TomTom VP about it.
granted, but the bluetooth handsfree on the tomtom dock must register itself as a handsfree device in order to tell the iphone that it handles calls, so cannot use the SDK accessory API to do this, and so therefore the phone app will run in the foreground

There has never once been any conflicting piece of information from any TomTom officer quoted on how the maps would be stored (OTA or download). As a matter of fact, the TomTom president outright directly stated it's a download and that same article stated they aren't going with a monthly subscription model. Never once was there ever a quote from either one about a monthly subscription model. You're repeating guesses people have made in articles. I said something that came from a quote. Period.
then why are so many people guessing if it has clearly been answered? clearly there is a lot of grey areas to do with functionality

most of these questions cannot really be answered until the tomtom app actually comes out, as vertigo235 said

avaloncourt

Jul 26, 2009, 08:01 PM

then why are so many people guessing if it has clearly been answered? clearly there is a lot of grey areas to do with functionality

Because people here can't be bothered to read articles which contain direct quotes from the people who are actually in power and making decisions even when the information has been provided here with pull-quotes of important material. Then someone will pull something completely out of their a** which blatantly conflicts with known, quoted information from corporate officers. People here would rather state false information or perpetuate rumors when the truth has been clearly provided.

There are lots of grey areas with regard to the TomTom but significant things have been said about it from the people who run the company. Oh well. Eventually it will be released. I just hope they do decide to include MapShare. That would make it a much more useful piece of software.

m3coolpix

Jul 26, 2009, 08:26 PM

A lot of people falsely reported that the cradle would have an FM transmitter and that was squashed within two articles that said it had to be a hard cable connection to the audio port on the dock.

This is an interesting little tidbit of information that I think is going to make the TomTom external dock be extremely pricey (speculation I know).

Reason I say that is that because in order to correctly implement Apple's dock signaling, you have to pony up major $$ (I heard $100k or better) to get on board with the NDA approval, as well as receive the software and circuit designs. This is where that 'This accessory is not made to work with iPhone' message comes from if you connect something to the dock that's not signaling properly. I believe this is the 'Works with iPhone' program so that you can use that Apple logo.

Isn't the only other fully implemented audio/line out/charging/control dock vehicle accessory made by Kensington LiquidAUX at ~$70+?

Speculation as well as business practice says that TomTom has to pass this initial 'Works with iPhone' cost onto their customers....

I'll bet that the TomTom software and cradle are going to be the most expensive TBT solution.

avaloncourt

Jul 26, 2009, 08:32 PM

This is an interesting little tidbit of information that I think is going to make the TomTom external dock be extremely pricey (speculation I know).

Reason I say that is that because in order to correctly implement Apple's dock signaling, you have to pony up major $$ (I heard $100k or better) to get on board with the NDA approval, as well as receive the software and circuit designs. This is where that 'This accessory is not made to work with iPhone' message comes from if you connect something to the dock that's not signaling properly. I believe this is the 'Works with iPhone' program so that you can use that Apple logo.

Isn't the only other fully implemented audio/line out/charging/control dock vehicle accessory made by Kensington LiquidAUX at ~$70+?

Speculation as well as business practice says that TomTom has to pass this initial 'Works with iPhone' cost onto their customers....

I'll bet that the TomTom software and cradle are going to be the most expensive TBT solution.

You managed to mirror in every one of your comments things I've said in the past. Yes, people think that this is going to be a $20-30 dock. That's not even possible. It's a Bluetooth and GPS device with external connections. That is going to run a lot of money. Last week an Australian tech site said "The car kit alone is expected to fetch over $100" (Australian) which puts it in the $80 range US. I had said a while back I assumed it would run about $75. TomTom is going to face issues of economics if they fully price themselves out of the market.

m3coolpix

Jul 26, 2009, 09:36 PM

You managed to mirror in every one of your comments things I've said in the past.

Haven't really followed everything you've posted (sorry!).

My comments are more from the time I've spent researching the iPod/iPhone's dock connectivity....from the mostly straight forward iPod into the new signaling and circuitry on the iPhone....even to the point of soldering up a few LODs in my spare time for use with headphone amps to be able to use the line out signal, and charge the device, all while not getting the 'This accessory.....iPhone' message.

But, yeah, the TomTom solution (software + hardware) I'm guessing in the $150+ range (if not even more). Also adding to the cost, you gotta factor in the 30% fee for selling the App through the App Store. I don't see how they are going to sell it as a 'package'.

avaloncourt

Jul 26, 2009, 09:50 PM

Haven't really followed everything you've posted (sorry!).

My comments are more from the time I've spent researching the iPod/iPhone's dock connectivity....from the mostly straight forward iPod into the new signaling and circuitry on the iPhone....even to the point of soldering up a few LODs in my spare time for use with headphone amps to be able to use the line out signal, and charge the device, all while not getting the 'This accessory.....iPhone' message.

But, yeah, the TomTom solution (software + hardware) I'm guessing in the $150+ range (if not even more). Also adding to the cost, you gotta factor in the 30% fee for selling the App through the App Store. I don't see how they are going to sell it as a 'package'.

No reason to be sorry. I was just amused that you managed to compress into one post things I've said across time in probably 10 posts addressing different things. It sounds like we have similar backgrounds. I just got done with my first stage of building an aquarium controller for lighting, pumps, heating and cooling.

I fully agree that I have no idea how they're going to pull off a package. That's going to be a very intimidating cost.

jacobgaul

Jul 26, 2009, 10:03 PM

i just took a 700 mile round trip with iphone 3gs + navigon + bracketron + dlo car charger, i was a bit worried that it could mess up so i did pack my garmin just incase! i never had to use it once! things did get a bit hairy for about 3-5 mintues in michigan when you constantly go under bridges i would loose gps signal but it only happened in the east bound lane not west which made NO sense.. but other then that it was dead on the entire route, i do hope navigon can make it recongize mistakes a tad bit quicker in the future update because it assumes your going to follow its route and it was taking 10-15secs to realize i missed a turn (traffic was horrible i couldnt get over 5 lanes) but all in all it was good. i appluad the navigon team for getting this app out in a decent time. the reality lane feature was GREAT because if anyone has taken i75 you know it gets crazy at one point and the navigon was dead on with telling me when to turn and etc.

the speed alert did get annoying so i did eventaully shut it off, i normally drive 15-20mph over the speed limit anyways soon as i seen that 70mph speed limit i put it on 90mph cruise and had no problems with cops they only mess with you if your driving crazy.. i was driving right next to one crusing along doing between 85-90 and all he did was wave so i was like well damn thats cool. im very happy with the purchase, i may purchase tomtom when it comes out but so far navigon is a winner in my book! no longer need to take the garmin on trips!!! :)

avaloncourt

Jul 26, 2009, 10:11 PM

normally drive 15-20mph over the speed limit anyways soon as i seen that 70mph speed limit i put it on 90mph cruise and had no problems with cops they only mess with you if your driving crazy.

:eek: Are the cops stoned where you live? Anywhere I've ever been 90mph will get you a love letter from the state delivered by a man in uniform. Heck, do that in the state next to me and that'll get you a mandatory overnight stay in a fine establishment.

jacobgaul

Jul 26, 2009, 10:23 PM

i dont live in michigan.. but i know many people who do and they say once u hit that 70mph speed limit sign right at ohio/michigan border they just dont care u can do 90mph with no problems from the cops just dont go in and out of traffic..

ddrueckhammer

Jul 26, 2009, 10:36 PM

Wow. If you guys are right and TomTom is going to cost $150+ for the dock solution, I don't see them selling that many. You can easily just get a stand alone device for that. IMO, they need to price the software at $75-$100 and the kit at no more than $120 or it isn't worth it. Is there any real advantage to the TomTom cradle if you already have a bluetooth car connection? It seems the Navigon software works fine without an extra GPS chip.

Peronally, I already have bluetooth and an iPod dock integrated into my car but the dock is in the glove compartment so I am planning on using an old Nano for Music and putting a dash or windshield mount on so that I can take calls/use navigation software with my iphone.

If I end up going for the Navigon because it is better or a better value what is the best dashboard or windshield mount out there? I have seen the Kensington dashboard (http://us.kensington.com/html/16293.html) and windshield (http://us.kensington.com/html/16302.html) ones and the Gmaps (http://www.xroadgps.com/tabid/1902/ProductID/71/Default.aspx) one... Just as a mount, both of these look like a better design than the TomTom one because you can use your iPhone with a case on it...

ct2k7

Jul 26, 2009, 10:40 PM

Wow. If you guys are right and TomTom is going to cost $150+ for the dock solution, I don't see them selling that many. You can easily just get a stand alone device for that. IMO, they need to price the software at $75-$100 and the kit at no more than $120 or it isn't worth it. Is there any real advantage to the TomTom cradle if you already have a bluetooth car connection? It seems the Navigon software works fine without an extra GPS chip.

Peronally, I already have bluetooth and an iPod dock integrated into my car but the dock is in the glove compartment so I am planning on using an old Nano for Music and putting a dash or windshield mount on so that I can take calls/use navigation software with my iphone.

If I end up going for the Navigon because it is better or a better value what is the best dashboard or windshield mount out there? I have seen the Kensington dashboard (http://us.kensington.com/html/16293.html) and windshield (http://us.kensington.com/html/16302.html) ones and the Gmaps (http://www.xroadgps.com/tabid/1902/ProductID/71/Default.aspx) one...

Those prices make it instantly not worth it in the UK. $362.28 for the newest model, that boasts more features than iPhone version.

AAAHH: TomTom site is offline now... hmm what are they updating :eek::rolleyes: iPhone... come here NOW....

ddrueckhammer

Jul 26, 2009, 11:02 PM

Those prices make it instantly not worth it in the UK. $362.28 for the newest model, that boasts more features than iPhone version.

AAAHH: TomTom site is offline now... hmm what are they updating :eek::rolleyes: iPhone... come here NOW....

Well you can get a stand alone unit here for $75 that has more features but a tiny screen.. Still I can see them putting a bit of a premium on the convenience of having it in a phone. Also, as someone pointed out, if you have more than 1 phone and it isn't against the license to install the software on more than 1 then it is a bargain... I won't pay a significant surcharge over the Navigon software though unless it is ALOT better. Thus, I am considering other mounting options...

ct2k7

Jul 26, 2009, 11:05 PM

Well you can get a stand alone unit here for $75 that has more features but a tiny screen.. Still I can see them putting a bit of a premium on the convenience of having it in a phone. Also, as someone pointed out, if you have more than 1 phone and it isn't against the license to install the software on more than 1 then it is a bargain... I won't pay a significant surcharge over the Navigon software though unless it is ALOT better. Thus, I am considering other mounting options...

That's the thing, I'll be getting a 3G S this August hopefully (wish me luck, certification exam results). I currently have the original iPhone.

The screens aren't that tiny anymore, the one we have is bigger than the iPhone, then again, that's the smallest here.

TomTom can make this work, or fail miserably.

avaloncourt

Jul 26, 2009, 11:11 PM

Well you can get a stand alone unit here for $75 that has more features but a tiny screen.. Still I can see them putting a bit of a premium on the convenience of having it in a phone.

Exactly. One thing to remember is that they've established a feature set related to the high-end TomTom models. IQRoutes and MapShare are elements of the most expensive models only. IQRoutes is absolutely in the iPhone app. It's mentioned in the WWDC video and was later restated by the company president. MapShare was later stated by the president that he didn't know if it was going to be included in the app. I found that odd. That should be known by now.

So, it seems like TomTom is establishing this as a "premium" application but they certainly haven't said that. It will be a tough market for them to convince people it's better than others already released.

m3coolpix

Jul 26, 2009, 11:12 PM

m3coolpix

Jul 26, 2009, 11:16 PM

edit to remove double post....

ddrueckhammer

Jul 27, 2009, 02:25 AM

That's the thing, I'll be getting a 3G S this August hopefully (wish me luck, certification exam results). I currently have the original iPhone.

The screens aren't that tiny anymore, the one we have is bigger than the iPhone, then again, that's the smallest here.

TomTom can make this work, or fail miserably.

I'm not sure what they have in Europe but I went to the store yesterday and looked and the TomTom One was about $80 but had a screen at least 1/3 smaller than an iPhone screen. Now for around $120 you can get Garmin Nuvi with about the same size screen. I hope the TomTom software is below $100 and has the same features as their high end units. If so, it will be a hard choice between that and Navigon's solution.

The dock is another ball of wax altogether. Unless it offers a huge boost in gps signal or is really cheap when bundled with the software, it seems like it will be a ripoff to me. Of course as I said, I already have Bluetooth and an iPod connector built into my car so I would only use it as a mount and charger...

I know it has to be tough for TomTom and Garmin if they enter this market because they don't want to undercut their existing product lines... If I were in their position though I would be very agressive. Because if they aren't, somebody else will be and they will lose a lot of money. We have already seen startups make apps on the AppStore that compete with major publishers because the big guys are appathetic.

ct2k7

Jul 27, 2009, 08:05 AM

I'm not sure what they have in Europe but I went to the store yesterday and looked and the TomTom One was about $80 but had a screen at least 1/3 smaller than an iPhone screen. Now for around $120 you can get Garmin Nuvi with about the same size screen. I hope the TomTom software is below $100 and has the same features as their high end units. If so, it will be a hard choice between that and Navigon's solution.

The dock is another ball of wax altogether. Unless it offers a huge boost in gps signal or is really cheap when bundled with the software, it seems like it will be a ripoff to me. Of course as I said, I already have Bluetooth and an iPod connector built into my car so I would only use it as a mount and charger...

I know it has to be tough for TomTom and Garmin if they enter this market because they don't want to undercut their existing product lines... If I were in their position though I would be very agressive. Because if they aren't, somebody else will be and they will lose a lot of money. We have already seen startups make apps on the AppStore that compete with major publishers because the big guys are appathetic.

TomTom has already kepts its potential customers waiting without information, and that contributes to PR disaster. I can tell you that each day there is no information, someone buys Navigon, and prolly won't go to TomTom, unless their release is mind-blowing and at a great price which warrants this.

fuzion11

Jul 27, 2009, 08:51 AM

TomTom's GPS antenna isn't going to make the GPS antenna on the phone better at all. The mount has its own antenna and the GPS antenna in the phone will be bypassed while in the dock. A GPS only uses one antenna at a time.

As for the difference, it woud be significant. The internal GPS antenna of an iPhone is tiny. There are teardown pictures online that show the antenna plane of an iPhone. A GPS patch antenna is significantly larger. TomTom would be using a traditional patch antenna in the dock which would have significant signal retention and stability advantages. I just looked up typical patch sizes and a "medium" antenna is approximately 1" square. That's larger than the the entire antenna plane of the iPhone which contains the GPS and cellular antennas.

To give a real-world example of usability, I have attempted to do Geocaching with my iPhone and it did a terrible job. Any level of tree canopy and the error grew to >300 feet. That is completely unusable for Geocaching purposes as it becomes a needle in the haystack. The only way I could use my phone was to be in an area with a completely unrestricted view of the sky.

Unfortunately, developers have no access to individual signal levels for the internal receiver so no application exists that has a display of every signal channel as you would find in a typical handheld GPS. That's likely to be intentional as Apple probably doesn't want that to be seen.

So what you're saying is the mount won't make the iphone's antenna any better at all because both can't be used at the same time....BUT, when using the mount it will be much more reliable in comparison to just using the naked iphone??

avaloncourt

Jul 27, 2009, 10:11 AM

So what you're saying is the mount won't make the iphone's antenna any better at all because both can't be used at the same time....BUT, when using the mount it will be much more reliable in comparison to just using the naked iphone??

Correct. The GPS antenna in the iPhone is tiny. If you look at the teardown photos online you can see that the cell and gps antennas are compressed into one little antenna plane which is much smaller than your typical GPS patch antenna. Using their dock, TomTom is choosing to hand off the reception to their own antenna which is always optimally positioned toward the sky, not a dashboard or a seat. Using more than one antenna could result in multipath reception from two different sources and digital processing doesn't handle that very well.

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here because all you did was restate what I already stated in the text of mine you quoted.

fuzion11

Jul 27, 2009, 10:35 AM

NightStorm

Jul 27, 2009, 10:38 AM

Do you guys think Navigon, in future updates will include the street names when you are being told to turn somewhere?

I heard it only says make a left in so in so meters....it doesn't say make a left on so and so street/avenue in 500 meters.

Yes, it has already been announced as coming later this year (not as part of the 1.1 update already rolling out though).

Tiffy

Jul 27, 2009, 10:45 AM

In France Navigon has been the first to release a GPS application, and since it has always been in the top 10 of the best selling applications in the Navigation category, though it costs 99 euros. It means that the installed base of customers is now very large. I have bought it and it is almost perfect (last Saturday, they added itinerary programming, radars, an option to display or not POIs by category, they enhanced the management of the sound (when music is playing), and a few other details). It just lacks traffic information, but probably it will be included in a future release.

TomTom will surely be very good, but do you think lots of people will buy it if they already bought Navigon ? Why spend twice 99 euros to gain what ? MAYBE IQ Routes ? And have you ever tried IQ Routes around Paris ? It is efficient to tell you that there is a traffic jam on the highway, but it doesn't know if the little roads around are OK or not. So it often tells you to use some little roads that are also saturated (because lots of people don't need TomTom to know the little roads around !). In some cases it's better to stay on the highway and be patient...

So to answer the question of this forum, I think Navigon will be the winner. Not because it is the best, but because it is the first AND one of the bests. Like Formula 1 : if you have the pole position and you are just a bit slower than your competitors, then you can win the race.

ksmith80209

Jul 27, 2009, 11:04 AM

I heard it only says make a left in so in so meters....it doesn't say make a left on so and so street/avenue in 500 meters.

That's not quite accurate. Although it doesn't TTS for local street names, it will for highways and such. For example, the other day I was using it and it said "in one mile, turn right on to I-270 East".

philgilder

Jul 27, 2009, 11:09 AM

That's not quite accurate. Although it doesn't TTS for local street names, it will for highways and such. For example, the other day I was using it and it said "in one mile, turn right on to I-270 East".
yes, this is correct. however, an update due later this summer will bring full text to speech and TMC

fuzion11

Jul 27, 2009, 11:12 AM

ct2k7

Jul 27, 2009, 11:21 AM

Navigon is quite good :) I think the update will be this summer.

Back to TomTom, you're losing my interest now. Your twitter account isn't very active, and your iPhone minisite doesn't work either!

philgilder

Jul 27, 2009, 11:22 AM

One person said the update will be later this year...another said later this summer.....

If I do decide to go with Navigon, I seriously hope it will be later this summer.

The more and more people that give their opinions the more and more Navigon is loooking better to me.
Direct from their website (http://navigon.com/iphone):
Even more features!
More functions such as TMC and text-to-speech will follow in late summer.

they also announced an update would be out in july that added these features:

Additional languages: Portugese, Czech, Polish, Turkish, Croatian, Romanian, Slovakian, Greek and Russian (GUI und Audio)
NAVIGON's route planning function known from the companies PND line that enables users to plan a route with several destinations
Safety cameras (not for all countries)
Additional map view options (now displays street names in 3D view, optional points of interest (POI) display)
Call POI function (call the number of a POI and save it to your contacts)
Optimized volume control when using the NAVIGON navigation and the integrated iPod function of the iPhone at the same time

this update was released several days ago, they seem to stick to deadlines

FearlessFreep

Jul 27, 2009, 12:01 PM

There is one thing preventing me from getting this - or TomTom for that matter. And that is the inability to multitask on the phone. Utilizing the phone as a GPS effectively ties up the phone for that purpose only. You can play music, but you can't listen to other things like MLB games, Pandora, WunderRadio/Pocket Tunes, etc.
Don't tell me to jailbreak my phone to use backgrounder - I don't want to do that.
We have two Garmins circa 2008. The maps are slightly out of date, but not significantly so. We keep them in each car, so portability isn't an issue either.
I do like the idea of an iPhone GPS, but can't get past these issues.

philgilder

Jul 27, 2009, 12:09 PM

jacobgaul

Jul 27, 2009, 12:24 PM

ct2k7

Jul 27, 2009, 12:48 PM

very funny how all this has been covered.. jailbreak+backgrounder its not hard to use and a MORON can jailbreak a phone

Funny how you start calling people names and don't read properly.

He said that he did not want to jailbreak, not that he couldn't.

I myself do not want to jailbreak. Not just that, but I can't really jailbreak my iPhone.

curly14

Jul 27, 2009, 12:58 PM

Ok am going to throw my 2 cents in here or more like $69.99 I purchased the navigon over the weekend (by mistake go figure short story there) anyways used it on both side streets and the freeways here are the pros-cons i can see

1. Took forever to download on a 8g 3g plus I had to dump photos,apps and more you need at least dbl the free space:(

2. The maps are great the signage is clear and précised

3. Tbt on streets needs text to speech like it does on the freeways turn right just doesn’t cut it:confused:

4. On there web site does not say anything about text to speech coming out on there next update:o

5.if you miss a turn the speed to redirect you seems slow i.e. tested it on a road that had heavy traffic so i took a short cut it keep telling me to turn left to get back on track.. Why so I can set in traffic... this unit needs traffic rerouting and a opinion to check traffic i.e (verzion ez naviagator):)

6. My gf has ez nav and by far blows away navigon on tbt directions but I do have to say that the graphics are sweet on the navigon:)

7. And last the caution audio is annoying as all hell, help me I think there is a setting that you can move it so you wont here it every five sec.:confused:

jacobgaul

Jul 27, 2009, 12:58 PM

no im not calling anyone a moron dont think that.. im just saying anyone could jailbreak even a moron could.. and i dont see why people wont jailbreak.

philgilder

Jul 27, 2009, 01:36 PM

Ok am going to throw my 2 cents in here or more like $69.99 I purchased the navigon over the weekend (by mistake go figure short story there) anyways used it on both side streets and the freeways here are the pros-cons i can see

1. Took forever to download on a 8g 3g plus I had to dump photos,apps and more you need at least dbl the free space

2. The maps are great the signage is clear and précised

3. Tbt on streets needs text to speech like it does on the freeways turn right just doesn’t cut it

4. On there web site does not say anything about text to speech coming out on there next update

5.if you miss a turn the speed to redirect you seems slow i.e. tested it on a road that had heavy traffic so i took a short cut it keep telling me to turn left to get back on track.. Why so I can set in traffic... this unit needs traffic rerouting and a opinion to check traffic i.e (verzion ez naviagator)

6. My gf has ez nav and by far blows away navigon on tbt directions but I do have to say that the graphics are sweet on the navigon

7. And last the caution audio is annoying as all hell, help me I think there is a setting that you can move it so you wont here it every five sec.

1. you need double the space to install, after the space is free again, same as with any app, just this one is bigger than most

3. coming in the update (see point 4)

4.
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6600/20369226.jpg

5. traffic is also coming in update referenced above

7. you can change the speed warning threshold in settings.. but maybe you shouldn't speed?

curly14

Jul 27, 2009, 03:23 PM

1. you need double the space to install, after the space is free again, same as with any app, just this one is bigger than most--guess i better get that 16g
3. coming in the update (see point 4) ok good to know i did see this but must of missed it
4.
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6600/20369226.jpg

5. traffic is also coming in update referenced above----ok good:)

7. you can change the speed warning threshold in settings.. but maybe you shouldn't speed?-----ok understand but its not a matter of speeding besides show me a person who goes the speed limit on a freeway in socal and i will show you a world at a stand still:D not to mention get ran over...

also one more tidbit will navigon work with non apple headphones i.e. bluetooth ear piece 520 plantronics

philgilder

Jul 27, 2009, 04:09 PM

ok understand but its not a matter of speeding besides show me a person who goes the speed limit on a freeway in socal and i will show you a world at a stand still:D not to mention get ran over... so two wrongs make a right eh?
well everyone here speeds. just set the speed threshold a little higher :)

also one more tidbit will navigon work with non apple headphones i.e. bluetooth ear piece 520 plantronicsyou mean the directions over a bluetooth headset? i don't see why not, but thats no guarantee

rsxmachine

Jul 27, 2009, 06:09 PM

It does work but u need a2dp

Tiffy

Jul 28, 2009, 01:38 AM

5.if you miss a turn the speed to redirect you seems slow i.e. tested it on a road that had heavy traffic so i took a short cut it keep telling me to turn left to get back on track.. Why so I can set in traffic... this unit needs traffic rerouting and a opinion to check traffic i.e (verzion ez naviagator):)

If there is heavy traffic, you can go to the options and choose to block the itinerary proposed for the next (100 meters, 1 kilometer, 3 kilometers, ...). Navigon will then propose an alternative. Of course it would be better with traffic information, but it works quite well.

curly14

Jul 28, 2009, 11:14 AM

If there is heavy traffic, you can go to the options and choose to block the itinerary proposed for the next (100 meters, 1 kilometer, 3 kilometers, ...). Navigon will then propose an alternative. Of course it would be better with traffic information, but it works quite well.

thanks i will give that a try:)

curly14

Jul 28, 2009, 11:17 AM

It does work but u need a2dp

Right the ear piece I know is not a2dp I thought with the new 3.0 software that you would be able to listen to your ipod and any other voice commands guess not!

curly14

Jul 28, 2009, 11:21 AM

so two wrongs make a right eh?
well everyone here speeds. just set the speed threshold a little higher :)

Its just what I did plus not everyone speeds those who don't would open up a whole new can of worms check out the thread about trapster what a hoot :D

you mean the directions over a bluetooth headset? i don't see why not, but thats no guarantee nope tried it but no worries here

gloss

Jul 28, 2009, 11:41 AM

Right the ear piece I know is not a2dp I thought with the new 3.0 software that you would be able to listen to your ipod and any other voice commands guess not!

Yeah, only over A2DP.

Pika

Jul 29, 2009, 06:56 AM

- Navigon doesn't seem to use the 3GS compass.
- No finger zoom in/out.

avaloncourt

Jul 29, 2009, 08:18 AM

- Navigon doesn't seem to use the 3GS compass.

Is any turn-by-turn app currently using the compass? For vehicular use there wouldn't be much use for it and there have been a lot of problems for people trying to use the compass in a vehicle. What happens when the GPS says you're going north but the 3GS compass says you're going west?

appie57

Jul 29, 2009, 09:22 AM

robpow

Jul 29, 2009, 10:35 AM

That I still got a speeding ticket in Slowakia was the fault of my Alfa RomeoYes, true. But being able to see the current speed limit in Navigon is pretty cool. Especially when you are driving on new roads and are unsure of what they are.

Used a Kensington windshield mount.
Is that the one that comes with different lenght links you can join up? It's about £20 here and I was looking to pick one up. Ideally I wanted a more slim-line powered mount with hidden cables but that seems impossible to find..

Matt

ddrueckhammer

Jul 29, 2009, 11:29 AM

I bought Navigon 1.0 (now it is up to 1.1) just before my holiday trip. Drove >4600 km through central and eastern Europe and Navigon worked fine. Of course, there are points to be improved, but overall, including speeding warnings, worked great. That I still got a speeding ticket in Slowakia was the fault of my Alfa Romeo :D
Used a Kensington windshield mount.

Was it the windshield mount or the dash mount? I'm not sure which one would be better. I like the Kensington because you can use a case with it, but yes Ideally a mount with charging built in would be great. Too bad the TomTom mount is looking to be very expensive and probably can't be used with a case... I don't need bluetooth or an iPod connection...

m3coolpix

Jul 29, 2009, 12:16 PM

Was it the windshield mount or the dash mount? I'm not sure which one would be better. I like the Kensington because you can use a case with it, but yes Ideally a mount with charging built in would be great.

I literally just bought the Kensington Car Mount, and the Kensington LiquidAUX Auxiliary Car Kit with Remote off of eBay for a combined price of $52 (free shipping, 2-3 days priority mail even). Should have it in a couple of days.

This works well with the connections I need in my truck to get into the AUX connection on my stereo.

Both of these get pretty good reviews on Amazon, save a couple not liking the remote. I don't really need the remote...

Was looking into A2DP devices for Bluetooth (outside of the vehicle).

ddrueckhammer

Jul 29, 2009, 12:28 PM

I literally just bought the Kensington Car Mount, and the Kensington LiquidAUX Auxiliary Car Kit with Remote off of eBay for a combined price of $52 (free shipping, 2-3 days priority mail even). Should have it in a couple of days.

This works well with the connections I need in my truck to get into the AUX connection on my stereo.

Both of these get pretty good reviews on Amazon, save a couple not liking the remote. I don't really need the remote...

Was looking into A2DP devices for Bluetooth (outside of the vehicle).

Oh you mean headsets... The original Jawbone seems to be the one most people like. The 2nd gen one doesn't get quite as good of reviews. That said, I use my official PS3 headset and it works great.

Budyl

Jul 29, 2009, 12:30 PM

FYI. A friend borrowed my Kensington iphone window mount and cracked the black outer skin right at the junction with the base (suction cup end). Tried bending it too much. Still works, but the outer skin is split about half inch long from junction. So, be careful to not bend the kensington to much at the ends. I am trying to see If Kensington will send me a replacement. Bought it on Ebay.

m3coolpix

Jul 29, 2009, 12:37 PM

Oh you mean headsets... The original Jawbone seems to be the one most people like. The 2nd gen one doesn't get quite as good of reviews. That said, I use my official PS3 headset and it works great.

I've tried/used 5-6 BT headsets since the iPhone came out, including the Jawbone (hated the looks).

Settled on the Plantronics 925 earlier this year, and it's been the best of anything I've used.....and now, you can only hear the Navigon instructions via A2DP! Argh.....the search for the best A2DP headset with a microphone begins. Thanks Apple for being so behind the A2DP curve :rolleyes:

Love

Jul 29, 2009, 12:45 PM

I'm not sure which I will pick. I don't really use it enough for me to pay that much for it, but if it could be justified, i'd look in to it.

BriGuy20

Jul 29, 2009, 02:06 PM

I'm going to probably get one of them, but if TomTom doesn't have it out by August 15th I'm going to get Navigon.

Does Navigon have a British voice for navigation? If I'm not being given directions by a British female, I'd almost rather not have directions at all.

ct2k7

Jul 29, 2009, 02:10 PM

vertigo235

Jul 29, 2009, 02:18 PM

She definately has a British Accent, but not as good as her;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcg-QyDf8cA

It's not a thick accent, but it definetly comes out when she says "400 feet"

BriGuy20

Jul 29, 2009, 02:23 PM

She definately has a British Accent, but not as good as her;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcg-QyDf8cA

I prefer the GPS in GTA IV or a litany of British actresses (like the woman from Nurse Jackie) to the one in the video. Hope you were joking there.

ct2k7

Jul 29, 2009, 02:37 PM

I prefer the GPS in GTA IV or a litany of British actresses (like the woman from Nurse Jackie) to the one in the video. Hope you were joking there.

@vertigo235 & @BriGuy20 = I was heavily joking there, the Navigon's female voice is good, and she speaks standard English. I understand her very well, this is comming from someone down in the very south who fails when it comes to dialects and accents.

The reason I referred to the video was becuase coffee == koffeh :/ :eek::eek::eek::eek:

vertigo235

Jul 29, 2009, 03:06 PM

ct2k7

Jul 29, 2009, 03:28 PM

I find the voice prompts to be very clear and easy to understand. Better than AT&T Navigator, we just need decent TTS, but even when it's available, I may just opt for the standard prompts we have now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1mEpGtcnTI

There we go, that's the woman speaking.

I think Navigon's UI should change to make it look more "native", I personally dislike the black colour. Especially didn't do too well last night.

Moleshome

Jul 29, 2009, 04:29 PM

She definately has a British Accent, but not as good as her;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcg-QyDf8cA

Gor blimey, it's Mary Poppins!

BriGuy20

Jul 29, 2009, 09:38 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1mEpGtcnTI

There we go, that's the woman speaking.

I think Navigon's UI should change to make it look more "native", I personally dislike the black colour. Especially didn't do too well last night.

Can any US customers tell me if she's in the American version?

I'm getting more and more tempted to just get Navigon now and not wait for TomTom.

NightStorm

Jul 29, 2009, 09:42 PM

Can any US customers tell me if she's in the American version?

I'm getting more and more tempted to just get Navigon now and not wait for TomTom.

Yep, sounds like the same voice that is in the North American app.

ct2k7

Jul 29, 2009, 09:42 PM

Can any US customers tell me if she's in the American version?

I'm getting more and more tempted to just get Navigon now and not wait for TomTom.

If you have Navigon in the US, and she speaks in a US accent, then yes.
Download the lite version and see how she speaks :)

Rayfire

Jul 30, 2009, 12:23 AM

If you have Navigon in the US, and she speaks in a US accent, then yes.
Download the lite version and see how she speaks :)

They pulled out the lite version of the North America version of Navigon :rolleyes:

I think a lot of the people here are in the same boat as me, waiting till Aug 14 (or 15) for TomTom
else we'll just settle for Navigon's TBT app. (for US)

Scdavis23

Jul 30, 2009, 01:23 AM

BriGuy20

Jul 30, 2009, 01:48 AM

I have to say, I think the deal breaker is going to be TomTom's IQ routes. I mean, when it comes down to it, it's all about finding the quickest route right?

Also, imagine how this technology could grow when it debuts on the iPhone. Right now, IQ routes only exists on PND's and how many people actually connect theirs to the internet in order to upload the data collected. When TomTom starts receiving info. from all of the iPhone users, I really see this technology becoming very useful.

If TomTom comes out with an IQ-enabled app before August 15th, I just might get the TomTom app. Will depend on pricing/yearly map fees as well. I think I might be willing to shell out up to $60-70 a year for the updated maps and ~$100 for a mount in addition to a $60 app (with one year of maps). Also must have British Female navigator voice (see above).

ct2k7

Jul 30, 2009, 06:51 AM

If TomTom comes out with an IQ-enabled app before August 15th, I just might get the TomTom app. Will depend on pricing/yearly map fees as well. I think I might be willing to shell out up to $60-70 a year for the updated maps and ~$100 for a mount in addition to a $60 app (with one year of maps). Also must have British Female navigator voice (see above).

From my calculations, TomTom have to get a minimum of $150 from the car kit and software. There will be people who won't get the car kit, so the app price has to account for this.

m3coolpix

Jul 30, 2009, 07:45 AM

When TomTom starts receiving info. from all of the iPhone users, I really see this technology becoming very useful.

I'm thinking this may be one of the bigger 'hold ups' of the release of their app. Implementing this feature is not a small undertaking. It doesn't scale easily for a world wide install base of iPhone users, without some serious horsepower as the install base grows. It's also got to be somewhat data intensive if it's real time.

If TomTom comes out with an IQ-enabled app before August 15th, I just might get the TomTom app. Will depend on pricing/yearly map fees as well. I think I might be willing to shell out up to $60-70 a year for the updated maps and ~$100 for a mount in addition to a $60 app (with one year of maps). Also must have British Female navigator voice (see above).

Being that Navigon is raising the price to $99 on August 15th, I highly doubt TomTom's app will be any less on it's debut......unless TomTom wants/decides to be bold and grab a large number of users at the launch as Navigon did with a low entry price....

I easily see the price of the hardware being in the $100+ range. There's a lot of functionality in it. Several of which require licenses to use/implement.

fuzion11

Jul 30, 2009, 09:52 AM

They pulled out the lite version of the North America version of Navigon :rolleyes:

I think a lot of the people here are in the same boat as me, waiting till Aug 14 (or 15) for TomTom
else we'll just settle for Navigon's TBT app. (for US)

I know I'm definitely in the same boat as you! Hey move over, you're taking up to much space! lol

ct2k7

Jul 30, 2009, 09:58 AM

I know I'm definitely in the same boat as you! Hey move over, you're taking up to much space! lol

hmm, $100 + for an App? :o

avaloncourt

Jul 30, 2009, 10:00 AM

I'm thinking this may be one of the bigger 'hold ups' of the release of their app. Implementing this feature is not a small undertaking. It doesn't scale easily for a world wide install base of iPhone users, without some serious horsepower as the install base grows. It's also got to be somewhat data intensive if it's real time.

They aren't implementing live traffic data now (like Dash Express) but rather are providing historical traffic data in the decision making process. I doubt that they are going to shift to a live model out of the gate for the iPhone. So, it would only be collecting data and incorporating that information into their historical traffic model. IQRoutes is only available on their highest end models so that limits their collection significantly. I would imagine they're taking the Dash Express model and providing a quarterly historical data update.

I hope they have MapShare, the other feature in the higher-end models. The quote from the TomTom president was that he didn't know if that would be included. I'd find that very useful.

ct2k7

Jul 30, 2009, 10:12 AM

They aren't implementing live traffic data now (like Dash Express) but rather are providing historical traffic data in the decision making process. I doubt that they are going to shift to a live model out of the gate for the iPhone. So, it would only be collecting data and incorporating that information into their historical traffic model. IQRoutes is only available on their highest end models so that limits their collection significantly. I would imagine they're taking the Dash Express model and providing a quarterly historical data update.

I hope they have MapShare, the other feature in the higher-end models. The quote from the TomTom president was that he didn't know if that would be included. I'd find that very useful.

He should know, he is CTO and co-founder :/

avaloncourt

Jul 30, 2009, 10:18 AM

He should know, he is CTO and co-founder :/

:confused: What are you talking about and WHO are you talking about? All that was said was IQRoutes was in the iPhone version. That doesn't mean its live. IQRoutes is not a live product, it's historical.

http://www.tomtom.com/page/iq-routes

Millions of TomTom users worldwide voluntarily provide us with anonymous historical speed-data from each of their journeys every time they connect their device to TomTom HOME .

ct2k7

Jul 30, 2009, 10:22 AM

:confused: What are you talking about and WHO are you talking about? All that was said was IQRoutes was in the iPhone version. That doesn't mean its live. IQRoutes is not a live product, it's historical.

Ah, I was under the impression that Peter-Frans Pauwels (my future xxx) didn't know if IQ Routes would be in the app or not.

avaloncourt

Jul 30, 2009, 10:25 AM

Ah, I was under the impression that Peter-Frans Pauwels (my future xxx) didn't know if IQ Routes would be in the app or not.

No, he was quoted by the LA Times in an article about two weeks ago that he didn't know if MapShare was going to be included in the iPhone version. That seems odd. It's a little late in the game to not be sure of the feature set.

ct2k7

Jul 30, 2009, 10:30 AM

No, he was quoted by the LA Times in an article about two weeks ago that he didn't know if MapShare was going to be included in the iPhone version. That seems odd. It's a little late in the game to not be sure of the feature set.

Ah right ok, yeah, I still agree with you :D

Why cant their IS web dev team make a working subsite?

BriGuy20

Jul 30, 2009, 10:31 AM

From my calculations, TomTom have to get a minimum of $150 from the car kit and software. There will be people who won't get the car kit, so the app price has to account for this.

Do your calculations suggest any yearly upgrade fee for new maps?

ct2k7

Jul 30, 2009, 10:32 AM

Do your calculations suggest any yearly upgrade fee for new maps?

They do factor these in, @ $40 for the UK, British Isles Version. Now for NA, $75 :) So yes, yearly upgrade fee. I think they might be waiting on In-app purchases to actually be working.

BriGuy20

Jul 30, 2009, 10:46 AM

They do factor these in, @ $40 for the UK, British Isles Version. Now for NA, $75 :) So yes, yearly upgrade fee. I think they might be waiting on In-app purchases to actually be working.

So, $150 for the case + app, and $75 a year for maps?

And do you mean 40 Pounds Sterling for UK?

ct2k7

Jul 30, 2009, 10:54 AM

So, $150 for the case + app, and $75 a year for maps?

And do you mean 40 Pounds Sterling for UK?

Either way, they've to make $150 per app + car kit. and around $75 for the maps per annum.

Nope, the maps for UK are £23, so that's around $40.

m3coolpix

Jul 30, 2009, 12:47 PM

So, $150 for the case + app, and $75 a year for maps??

If this pricing logic follows, then TomTom is going to sell the software alone in the App Store for less than what Navigon's pricing will be at on August 15th (even below where it currently is?).

I just don't see it happening this way. This would make the 'bundle' break out at $60 for software and $90 for the car kit (or $100 kit, $50 software, you get the idea). Based on TomTom's place in the market, plus the functionality being touted (software and hardware), I don't see their solution as the low price leader, unless they just disregard revenue for market share (even if it's a 'break even' model ROI for a short time).

Right now, there is no way to buy a 'bundle' through the App Store. Software goes through the App Store, and the dock is a separate purchase from a B&M store. AND, the hardware is not yet purchasable at an Apple Store, so it's not convenient.

Two separate purchases for the end user, two separate distribution channels.....doesn't lend itself to a 'low price leader' for either of these products. There are a lot of logistics at play for the TomTom release, IMHO. If they get it such that you can buy the car kit (at a discount vs. buying each piece separately) via the App Store....then you have to take into account it's not a model that Apple completely supports just yet....buying a software app, then shipping a piece of hardware. Or, you have to walk into a B&M store (i. e. Best Buy) and purchase the car kit separately (if you already bought the software). OR, you'd have to buy the software/hardware bundle from a B&M store (maybe a discount this way), and then go to the App Store to download the software and enter some type of code (hidden in the box). I'm not saying all this can't be done. It can...but it takes logistics/time/money. They're releasing 3 separate products here, each of which has to be able to stand on it's own, and be profitable.

Sorry to be so realistic, maybe even pessimistic, but from my 20 years in the manufacturing business....then the past 12 years as a small business owner, I'm just thinking about it from the business/manufacturing side of things.

BriGuy20

Jul 30, 2009, 03:17 PM

If this pricing logic follows, then TomTom is going to sell the software alone in the App Store for less than what Navigon's pricing will be at on August 15th (even below where it currently is?).

I just don't see it happening this way. This would make the 'bundle' break out at $60 for software and $90 for the car kit (or $100 kit, $50 software, you get the idea). Based on TomTom's place in the market, plus the functionality being touted (software and hardware), I don't see their solution as the low price leader, unless they just disregard revenue for market share (even if it's a 'break even' model ROI for a short time).

Right now, there is no way to buy a 'bundle' through the App Store. Software goes through the App Store, and the dock is a separate purchase from a B&M store. AND, the hardware is not yet purchasable at an Apple Store, so it's not convenient.

Two separate purchases for the end user, two separate distribution channels.....doesn't lend itself to a 'low price leader' for either of these products. There are a lot of logistics at play for the TomTom release, IMHO. If they get it such that you can buy the car kit (at a discount vs. buying each piece separately) via the App Store....then you have to take into account it's not a model that Apple completely supports just yet....buying a software app, then shipping a piece of hardware. Or, you have to walk into a B&M store (i. e. Best Buy) and purchase the car kit separately (if you already bought the software). OR, you'd have to buy the software/hardware bundle from a B&M store (maybe a discount this way), and then go to the App Store to download the software and enter some type of code (hidden in the box). I'm not saying all this can't be done. It can...but it takes logistics/time/money. They're releasing 3 separate products here, each of which has to be able to stand on it's own, and be profitable.

Sorry to be so realistic, maybe even pessimistic, but from my 20 years in the manufacturing business....then the past 12 years as a small business owner, I'm just thinking about it from the business/manufacturing side of things.

Maybe that's why there's been no update or further word of a release since the keynote in June.

avaloncourt

Jul 30, 2009, 03:43 PM

Two separate purchases for the end user, two separate distribution channels.....doesn't lend itself to a 'low price leader' for either of these products. There are a lot of logistics at play for the TomTom release, IMHO. If they get it such that you can buy the car kit (at a discount vs. buying each piece separately) via the App Store....then you have to take into account it's not a model that Apple completely supports just yet....buying a software app, then shipping a piece of hardware. Or, you have to walk into a B&M store (i. e. Best Buy) and purchase the car kit separately (if you already bought the software). OR, you'd have to buy the software/hardware bundle from a B&M store (maybe a discount this way), and then go to the App Store to download the software and enter some type of code (hidden in the box). I'm not saying all this can't be done. It can...but it takes logistics/time/money. They're releasing 3 separate products here, each of which has to be able to stand on it's own, and be profitable.

The article with the quote from the TomTom president say the dock will be available through their regular retail channels as well as "hopefully" (his word) Apple. You'll be able to buy the software-only approach right from iTunes. I think for a bundle the likely approach would be a purchase which places an order through the Apple store for the cradle and then emails you a promotional code for the iTunes store. You enter that in the "code" link on the right of the store and your download of the software begins at no additional cost.

I suppose at the retail store level they could bundle a blister pack with a cradle and card containing a promotional code.

Considering the estimates for the cradle I think a non-sale price of the software would be where Navigon is headed at $99, the cradle itself for $75 or a bundle of both for $150. They're going to penalize people on software cost for not buying the cradle. We already know where the largest competitor is heading with their software price.

This model makes sense to me. I also had my own business for quite a few years and then moved on into management for a b2b wholesaler for a business with $15+ million in annual revenues. I know manufacturer-level pricing and the margins carried on at distributor and retail pricing.

My continued concern here is the TomTom president's use of the word "hopefully" for the cradle being sold through Apple. This tells me there's some issues going on at the TomTom to Apple level perhaps over the iTunes store percentage. It doesn't seem like there would be a problem placing the cradle in the stores themselves since they were the featured GPS application and that was part of the presentation. This seems like a battle of wills about Apple's cut. TomTom probably doesn't want to eat 30% right off the top in "distribution" costs of the app.

curly14

Jul 30, 2009, 04:02 PM

Taking bets !!! for all of you waiting for Aug 14 for Tom Tom good luck good source told me it won't be out until Sept 3 so pony up and get your Navigon here...or wait and pay the full price:)

avaloncourt

Jul 30, 2009, 04:20 PM

Taking bets !!! for all of you waiting for Aug 14 for Tom Tom good luck good source told me it won't be out until Sept 3 so pony up and get your Navigon here...or wait and pay the full price:)

That's sure pushing the envelope of the definition of summer. :)

gloss

Jul 30, 2009, 04:37 PM

That's sure pushing the envelope of the definition of summer. :)

Autumn doesn't begin until late September. :)

ddrueckhammer

Jul 30, 2009, 05:12 PM

Taking bets !!! for all of you waiting for Aug 14 for Tom Tom good luck good source told me it won't be out until Sept 3 so pony up and get your Navigon here...or wait and pay the full price:)

If you are right, the TomTom might miss out on a lot of customers. I know that I will be very tempted to just get Navigon on August 14th...

nashmills

Jul 30, 2009, 05:14 PM

Get your pre-orders in now: http://www.handtec.co.uk/product.php/2126/tomtom-for-iphone-inc-mount

£114 including the mount.

jmmo20

Jul 30, 2009, 05:21 PM

Which maps will be available?

I'd like to see a cheap Tom Tom app (20$?) with no maps included then you could buy each country separately through the App store directly from the TomTom app.. that'd be sweet.

I need the maps for Spain and Israel !!

ddrueckhammer

Jul 30, 2009, 05:24 PM

Is that an actual price or just a guess? Because I just converted it and $187 is too much for me... I can get a pretty nice stand-alone for that.

If the software only is $100 or less I will consider it against Navigon but more than that is just crazy.

This time next year all the competitors will have updated apps that are competitive with TomTom's offering and there are plenty of other music/charging docks. Bluetooth is nice if you don't already have it but if you can't use the mount with a case that is a major con. The only thing that might make the dock worth it is if the gps signal is significantly boosted but even then compared to a stand alone unit, it seems like a rip-off.

Dedicated GPS units might be going the way of the DoDo and if they are the "market leaders" might end up being the last buggy whip makers...

avaloncourt

Jul 30, 2009, 05:28 PM

If you are right, the TomTom might miss out on a lot of customers. I know that I will be very tempted to just get Navigon on August 14th...

They already missed out on a huge market. They've missed all of the summer travelers taking driving trips.

avaloncourt

Jul 30, 2009, 05:30 PM

Get your pre-orders in now: http://www.handtec.co.uk/product.php/2126/tomtom-for-iphone-inc-mount

£114 including the mount.

Today's exchange rate: US$187.65

Pika

Jul 30, 2009, 05:32 PM

I need TomTom so badly! I'm going on vacation tomorrow and now I'm stuck with google earth. :(

avaloncourt

Jul 30, 2009, 05:35 PM

They already missed out on a huge market. They've missed all of the summer travelers taking driving trips.

I need TomTom so badly! I'm going on vacation tomorrow and now I'm stuck with google earth. :(

See? My point exactly. :)

m3coolpix

Jul 30, 2009, 05:44 PM

September 22nd is the first day of autumn. To a manufacturing/software team struggling to push out a product (and hopefully get some testing on it), September 21st could be considered 'late summer' (been there done that). Summer travel season is about over. 26 days until the school district calendar starts where I live.

If the handtech.co.uk site is any reference (not familiar with them), their price is probably already 'street priced', which means the retail is above that number by a good margin.

ct2k7

Jul 30, 2009, 06:04 PM

See? My point exactly. :)

Take Navigon with you!

curly14

Jul 30, 2009, 06:10 PM

I need TomTom so badly! I'm going on vacation tomorrow and now I'm stuck with google earth. :(

Why are you stuck! get Navigon and your set plus why are you using google earth ? i dont set any map use there

Randman

Jul 30, 2009, 06:29 PM

I went on vacation right after the 4th and signed up for AT&T Navigator for a month. It did well in my home city but had more problems on the road. It's a solid service as long as you have a good signal (streaming voice to BT car stereo also helps). But I canceled it.

I'd like to see TomTom, pricing and features but am really leaning toward going with Navigon now instead of waiting 2 more weeks (I'd get Navigon on the 14th or 15th for sure if no TT).

SpaceKitty

Jul 30, 2009, 06:36 PM

I went on vacation right after the 4th and signed up for AT&T Navigator for a month. It did well in my home city but had more problems on the road. It's a solid service as long as you have a good signal (streaming voice to BT car stereo also helps). But I canceled it.

Yes, the signal is the apps only fault. I tried this app just hours after it was released and cancelled it as soon as I got back in from testing it. I live near a three block area where there is no 3G service and in that area, AT&T Navigator quit working and that's all I needed to see to cancel.

m3coolpix

Jul 30, 2009, 06:43 PM

I'd like to see a cheap Tom Tom app (20$?) with no maps included then you could buy each country separately through the App store directly from the TomTom app.. that'd be sweet.

I need the maps for Spain and Israel !!

This could be, if someone in the market takes it on, a great way to gain quick inexpensive market share. $20-$30 for a decent TBT navigation app including one country/state map, then an in app purchase (that Apple is saying will be possible) of each additional map needed (something like $10 each country/state).

Some start up is going to try it.....

I really see, as the mobile phone market matures with reliable TBT navigation (others already have it), that all the standalone TBT unit sales dwindle to nothing in the next 3-5 years, as well as a dwindling market for it to be 'in car'.

Just ask the wrist watch manufacturers. How many teenagers/20/30 somethings out there do you still see wearing a wrist watch (not to go off topic, just something parallel to think about)?

BriGuy20

Jul 30, 2009, 06:54 PM

This could be, if someone in the market takes it on, a great way to gain quick inexpensive market share. $20-$30 for a decent TBT navigation app including one country/state map, then an in app purchase (that Apple is saying will be possible) of each additional map needed (something like $10 each country/state).

Some start up is going to try it.....

I really see, as the mobile phone market matures with reliable TBT navigation (others already have it), that all the standalone TBT unit sales dwindle to nothing in the next 3-5 years, as well as a dwindling market for it to be 'in car'.

Just ask the wrist watch manufacturers. How many teenagers/20/30 somethings out there do you still see wearing a wrist watch (not to go off topic, just something parallel to think about)?

I think the standalone market will dwindle in a few years, but I think there will be a market for it in-car and included in other devices. The watch thing is (IMHO) because most kids now have a cell phone and that does a good enough job as a watch that they don't need a wristwatch. I basically only wear mine out of habit (I'm a relative youngster myself).

avaloncourt

Jul 30, 2009, 07:47 PM

Take Navigon with you!

You're replying to the wrong person.

ct2k7

Jul 30, 2009, 07:48 PM

You're replying to the wrong person.

fail();

back to topic, TomTom.. come here... good app, I'll feed you a cookie!

FearlessFreep

Jul 31, 2009, 08:27 AM

I think TomTom is setting themselves up for a big letdown. There's by all accounts a decent TBT nav app out there in Navigon right now, and TomTom's leaving users waiting ... and waiting... and waiting, with no specifics at all. When their app and hardware finally hit the streets, it's likely going to be at a premium (at least >$150 US total for app+dock). That's a pretty significant difference between their next-closest competitor at $70. There are a lot of people who are building this up into something it's probably not.

fuzion11

Jul 31, 2009, 09:33 AM

All I can say is that I was sooooo excited for TomTom....but one thing I know for sure is, if it's not out by the 14th, I'll definitely be going with Navigon.

The one thing that really caught my attention from TT was the fact it upgraded the gps signal strength.

One question for anyone who might be in the know......How much better could the signal strength be with the mount? I've heard the iphone's antenna is good enough. I live around Toronto and just don't want to find out I could have had MUCH better gps signal with TT and the mount.

Any comments to make me feel better about that? haaha

alent1234

Jul 31, 2009, 09:46 AM

all the GPS signals go one way, and that is up. only problem you might have is indoors. i've used GPS devices in the army back in the 1990's which were made on even older tech and never had any problems.

ddrueckhammer

Jul 31, 2009, 09:50 AM

The biggest con about the TomTom mount isn't even the cost for me. It is that the design seems not to allow for cases. I have an Incase Slider Case on my phone that I have never taken off. I don't want to have to be taking it off every time I get into the car if I can just use a software only solution and a Kensington mount...

avaloncourt

Jul 31, 2009, 10:15 AM

all the GPS signals go one way, and that is up.

GPS signals only go down from the satellites, not up.

ct2k7

Jul 31, 2009, 08:39 PM

avaloncourt

Jul 31, 2009, 10:12 PM

Posting from iPhone here, just found this: http://www.handtec.co.uk/product.php/2126/tomtom-for-iphone-inc-mount

could be fake but I would be pretty crapper off if this was real. Doesn't app have to be sold through app store though? Maybe promo code in the pack?

Post #145 in this same thread

Get your pre-orders in now: http://www.handtec.co.uk/product.php/2126/tomtom-for-iphone-inc-mount

£114 including the mount.

I also said previously in this thread (I think it was within a few posts of that one) that I assume they'll bundle the mount and a card with a promotional code. :)

Pika

Aug 1, 2009, 01:19 AM

Guys... i just purchased Navigon. I had no choice... I'm going on vacation... i needed a GPS so badly. I've heard bad things about TomTom that their user interface is very complicate.

I needed something easy...

PhantomZone

Aug 1, 2009, 06:26 AM

Randman

Aug 1, 2009, 06:33 AM

I said screw it and bought the Navigon app as it's a fair price imo. Installing now.

bbplayer5

Aug 1, 2009, 12:41 PM

I said screw it and bought the Navigon app as it's a fair price imo. Installing now.

Good choice and an update is due out shortly that adds things. Go read their itunes page.

stockcerts

Aug 1, 2009, 01:30 PM

Navigon is as good as TomTom will ever be....**** em, they've been boasting about having it working on an iPhone for "years", they even pay / get invited by Apple to showcase at WWDC and they cant be bothered releasing it in a reasonable time...its the ultimate in FAIL!!

Support Navigon and shun these idiots....they need to learn :p

I fully agree. I bought Navigon a few weeks ago. Prior to that I was using a Garmin Nuvi, which I'm now giving to my daughter. I'm happy with Navigon so far. I've taken several trips and it works well. There is a little room for improvement, but they've already stated an update is coming soon. I'm sure TT will be much more expensive, especially when you factor in the cost of the doc. I'm glad I didn't wait, $70- is a good price!

Londonluke

Aug 1, 2009, 06:38 PM

curly14

Aug 1, 2009, 07:41 PM

Heard today from someone in the know.....
Tomtom might be forced to release the package despite their top guys reservations about the system been ready.They hope to make sales and then "patch up" later. This is yet again another kick in the the teeth from Tomtom.

wow the worst thing to do imo first put a product out that is unfinished then try to make up for it later death to Tom Tom besides my source still says it won't be released till Sept 3

avaloncourt

Aug 1, 2009, 09:03 PM

Heard today from someone in the know.....
Tomtom might be forced to release the package despite their top guys reservations about the system been ready.They hope to make sales and then "patch up" later. This is yet again another kick in the the teeth from Tomtom.

How is it that you have a "source" now? Two weeks ago...

Tomtom really need to do some serious "customer research" I paid to call them to ask if the 2g will work using their GPS cradle and mapping. The tech guy did not know. Thats a $6 call to ask a simple tech question .If he does not know that then whats the point??