Finding a comparable 12" PC notebook.

[jaw04005]

A friend of mine has been looking for a 12" notebook that includes the following features:

Bluetooth
DVI
DVD-R Drive
60GB Hard Drive
802.11G
FW400

Obviously, I told him to look at the Powerbook, which totaled around $1599.00. His Dad told him that he was wasting his money on Apple, and that he should check around because he should be able to get all of those features for less than Apple's Educational Price. :mad: I told him goodluck, and have speant about 1 hour & 1/2 looking around at PC notebooks.... I haven't found any that include all of those features. The closest I came was Sony and Fujitsu, but they didn't have Bluetooth. Its amazing that people think Apple's products are expensive. Can anyone find a comparable 12" PC notebook for under $1599, that includes those specs?

[BrianKonarsMac]

quite doubtful they can match the features as well as beat the price, not to mention form factor.

[Soc7777777]

A friend of mine has been looking for a 12" notebook that includes the following features:

Bluetooth
DVI
DVD-R Drive
60GB Hard Drive
802.11G
FW400

Obviously, I told him to look at the Powerbook, which totaled around $1599.00. His Dad told him that he was wasting his money on Apple, and that he should check around because he should be able to get all of those features for less than Apple's Educational Price. :mad: I told him goodluck, and have speant about 1 hour & 1/2 looking around at PC notebooks.... I haven't found any that include all of those features. The closest I came was Sony and Fujitsu, but they didn't have Bluetooth. Its amazing that people think Apple's products are expensive. Can anyone find a comparable 12" PC notebook for under $1599, that includes those specs?
the dell 600m has all those features (cept not sure about dvi... but it probibly does) and its 1380 (catching a good rebate would make it lower...) whether that comp is as good as a powerbook is a different issue

[Les Kern]

I just bought the 12" Sony Vaio (model PCG-691L) a few days ago. With the edu discount it was just over 1400. But no DVD-R and no Bluetooth. It's the best I could find with all the features I really needed. I didn't price the add-ons or even if they were available.
I like it. But that said, it ain't even CLOSE to the value of a Powerbook. The battery is pretty lousy, the wireless range is weak even with a plastic body. I DO like its form, the screen is exceptional, and it's pretty snappy.
Tell dad to let you him decide for himself. If he ever saw a Mac in REAL action he'd have to admit they are quite a machine.

[Studawg7]

I had this exact same issue before I bought my apple. However, even when looking at Dell's machines (which are usually the best price/quality for pc's) the cost would rise greatly when adding these features. One thing that makes the machine cost more is the operating system. Most likely you'll want XP pro, that costs more. Then which office you purchase (if you do) could easily bump up the cost. I think if you look at the total package and the features you want, you'll figure out that apple's machines hit the target price/feature wise. Remember, get the computer with the features you want, that makes for a happy purchase.

[jxyama]

FW400

just curious... if your friend needs FW for iPod, then it's much better to get a Mac because most PCs will only include 4-pin FW built-in and those will not charge the iPod.

otherwise, i think it'd be cheaper to buy a PC without built-in FW and just get a FW card.

[kelvinz]

possibly Avertech?

[dopefiend]

possibly Avertech?

http://www.averatec.com if anyone is wondering. They lack a dvd writer though.

[LaMerVipere]

You kind of have a hard order to fill, whenever you specify specific specs at a specific price. you might end up spending more to get all that in a PC notebook, but you could just as easily take the specs of some PC notebook and say "give me a comparable apple notebook" and you probably wouldn't be able to find one that fits the price and specs exactly, but that doesn't mean the apple isn't a better value.

tell your friend to stop worrying so much about price, and to get a mac! ;)

[noel4r]

you can just add a USB Bluetooth adapter for 30 to 40 dollars.

[jxyama]

You kind of have a hard order to fill, whenever you specify specific specs at a specific price. you might end up spending more to get all that in a PC notebook, but you could just as easily take the specs of some PC notebook and say "give me a comparable apple notebook" and you probably wouldn't be able to find one that fits the price and specs exactly, but that doesn't mean the apple isn't a better value.

tell your friend to stop worrying so much about price, and to get a mac! ;)

yeah, i agree with you. the reason PCs are generally considered "better value" is because of its customizability. so if you don't need features offered on Macs, you can lower the price of a PC by dropping those features. but i tend to find that as soon as you start looking for comparably equipped models, the price difference starts to diminish. this, of course, doesn't take into account CPU and OS differences and included software, but in general, Macs are just as well priced as any PCs.

if your friend is open to the idea of going to OS X, tell him to get a Mac. i think included media authoring programs (specifically, iMovie and iDVD) are well worth it over slightly cheaper PCs with similar specs.

[Gaz]

Personally I have my eye on the new Sony Vaio S1VP. 13" wide-screen, good resolution, very fast processor, good graphics card etc...could well include DVI on it's dock. This looks like it has the specs a 13" Powerbook should have.

Hmmm...doesn't look like it appears on the US site yet but check out the UK one at www.sonystyle.co.uk very cool!

G

[dopefiend]

Ahhh...I went to that link of yours Gaz and saw the X505....Much droolage, lol.

I'd love to own one of those right now!

[Mav451]

A friend of mine has been looking for a 12" notebook that includes the following features:

Bluetooth
DVI
DVD-R Drive
60GB Hard Drive
802.11G
FW400

Obviously, I told him to look at the Powerbook, which totaled around $1599.00. His Dad told him that he was wasting his money on Apple, and that he should check around because he should be able to get all of those features for less than Apple's Educational Price. :mad: I told him goodluck, and have speant about 1 hour & 1/2 looking around at PC notebooks.... I haven't found any that include all of those features. The closest I came was Sony and Fujitsu, but they didn't have Bluetooth. Its amazing that people think Apple's products are expensive. Can anyone find a comparable 12" PC notebook for under $1599, that includes those specs?


You should be clear that the $1599 model gets you only the combo drive, NOT the SuperDrive. You need to pay $200 more to get the DVD burner.

I'm not sure what you meant by "DVD-R", but unless you go to the $1799 model, you are limited to a combo drive (which is DVD-ROM with CDRW abilities, not DVD+/-RW with CDRW).

[quagmire]

the dell 600m has all those features (cept not sure about dvi... but it probibly does) and its 1380 (catching a good rebate would make it lower...) whether that comp is as good as a powerbook is a different issue

No it doesn't come standard. It comes with a 30 GB standard. No dvi or bluetooth. Apple is still on top. Get his dad to register with macrumors and we will show him the light.

[iShater]

Ahhh...I went to that link of yours Gaz and saw the X505....Much droolage, lol.

I'd love to own one of those right now!

I'm working to convince a buddy of mine NOT to shell out $3k to get this thing. It is an awesome portable business machine, if the company is buying it or you got tons of cash to umm... waste. But if you look at the specs, it is really underpowered.

[iShater]

No it doesn't come standard. It comes with a 30 GB standard. No dvi or bluetooth. Apple is still on top. Get his dad to register with macrumors and we will show him the light.

I went ahead and customized a 600m to match the specs, and the price does come up to around $1700 or so. The catch is thought that the screen is 14", so we need to determine if the screen size is big factor in the purchase decision or not.

[bellychris]

You should be clear that the $1599 model gets you only the combo drive, NOT the SuperDrive. You need to pay $200 more to get the DVD burner.

I'm not sure what you meant by "DVD-R", but unless you go to the $1799 model, you are limited to a combo drive (which is DVD-ROM with CDRW abilities, not DVD+/-RW with CDRW).

I think he ment it is 1599 with the educational discount

[upperblue79]

You should be clear that the $1599 model gets you only the combo drive, NOT the SuperDrive. You need to pay $200 more to get the DVD burner.

I'm not sure what you meant by "DVD-R", but unless you go to the $1799 model, you are limited to a combo drive (which is DVD-ROM with CDRW abilities, not DVD+/-RW with CDRW).


The price he is looking at is with the student discount apple gives which makes the 12" superdrive $1599.

[Soc7777777]

No it doesn't come standard. It comes with a 30 GB standard. No dvi or bluetooth. Apple is still on top. Get his dad to register with macrumors and we will show him the light.
you dont get the point, whats standard doesnt matter because you choose your options... customize it witht he 1 year warrenty... thats the advantage of pcs... you get what you want...

[Soc7777777]

I went ahead and customized a 600m to match the specs, and the price does come up to around $1700 or so. The catch is thought that the screen is 14", so we need to determine if the screen size is big factor in the purchase decision or not.
your forgetting the 200 mail in rebate... and the fact that on the phone tey will usually go down and average of 200 dollars... (and you were getting a 3 year at home warrentee)

[Soc7777777]

trust me people.. the dell 600m customized with the options you guys have stated can be had for 1200... but whether its as good a computer in general is a different story...

for an example... look at a 300m on dells website and check out how much that is with ext cdrw/dvdrom 30 gig 1.2 ghz b/g wireless card 640mb ram... 4 year at home next bis day warrenty... i have that computer... online right now it is showing for around 2000-2200... but i got it for 1380... dell is unlike apple in that they will have HUGE discounts at certian times... so you cant compare apples price to dells RIGHT NOW.... because if he were bying a dell he should wait till there is a great deal going on

[jaw04005]

The price he is looking at is with the student discount apple gives which makes the 12" superdrive $1599.

You are correct, I was using Apple's Education Price. He wants a 12" for portability purposes, not a 14" or 15". Also, he needs firewire 400 for his Canon MiniDV Camera, not that the purpose really matters. Why don't PC companies use the larger firewire port (6-pin?) instead of the smaller port (4-pin)? I don't see the purpose, you would have to go out and purchase a 4 to 4 instead of using a standard 6 to 4. And in my town, Staples rarely carries the 4 to 4 :(

I helped him look today also, and I still can't find those features for that price. I told him to just get the Mac, but im really sort of surprised that is THAT hard to find those features on a PC notebook.

[solvs]

Don't suppose there are any Apple Stores or CompUSA's around where you are? ;) Go look at the 'books in person with him. You mentioned a camcorder. If he wants to do video editing on the go, a Mac is the way to go. Play with iMovie for awhile. I've been trying to edit video with my PC, and it's painful to say the least. Gah, my G3 was better for this stuff.

If he has to buy a PC, same thing. Go to a store, play with some HPs and Sonys. They're ok, but not great for the features it sounds like he wants.

[quagmire]

you dont get the point, whats standard doesnt matter because you choose your options... customize it witht he 1 year warrenty... thats the advantage of pcs... you get what you want...

So you are saying you have to pay for the warrenty on a dell.:eek:. The powerbook has free 1 year warrenty. The reason why apple doesn't have all those stuff as bto is because it already comes with the machine. You get alot more stuff with macs then you get with a pc standard.

[quagmire]

trust me people.. the dell 600m customized with the options you guys have stated can be had for 1200... but whether its as good a computer in general is a different story...

for an example... look at a 300m on dells website and check out how much that is with ext cdrw/dvdrom 30 gig 1.2 ghz b/g wireless card 640mb ram... 4 year at home next bis day warrenty... i have that computer... online right now it is showing for around 2000-2200... but i got it for 1380... dell is unlike apple in that they will have HUGE discounts at certian times... so you cant compare apples price to dells RIGHT NOW.... because if he were bying a dell he should wait till there is a great deal going on

Why should we trust you? We are mainly mac users here and you are trying to convert us to windows. Yes, pc are cheaper the whole world knows that. People are blinded when you want something on a pc box you need to add to it which makes it more expensive then the powerbook. Most of the time the powerbook comes with the stuff people add to pcs which makes the powerbook cheaper. When I built the 600m even with the current discount it was $1699. I would presume he also wanted more ram. I didn't see under the computers standard specs dvi or bluetooth. Can you possibly show us where?

[upperblue79]

Don't suppose there are any Apple Stores or CompUSA's around where you are? ;) Go look at the 'books in person with him. You mentioned a camcorder. If he wants to do video editing on the go, a Mac is the way to go. Play with iMovie for awhile. I've been trying to edit video with my PC, and it's painful to say the least. Gah, my G3 was better for this stuff.

If he has to buy a PC, same thing. Go to a store, play with some HPs and Sonys. They're ok, but not great for the features it sounds like he wants.

It depends what part of Arkansas he is in. I live in Little Rock and there is a compusa here that I work at with a really nice apple store that is kept up by our apple sales rep. If you are going to go the the compusa in Little Rock the best time would be in the afternoons and not on wed or thur cause those are the days Greg (the apple rep) is off. You should have your friend talk to him, Greg can talk almost anyone into an apple. :)

[Chip NoVaMac]

just curious... if your friend needs FW for iPod, then it's much better to get a Mac because most PCs will only include 4-pin FW built-in and those will not charge the iPod.

otherwise, i think it'd be cheaper to buy a PC without built-in FW and just get a FW card.

Not to mention the Apple Script's that allow you on a Mac to select a group of songs for enabling (or not). My other half is pissed that he can't do the same....

[wide]

Personally I have my eye on the new Sony Vaio S1VP. 13" wide-screen, good resolution, very fast processor, good graphics card etc...could well include DVI on it's dock. This looks like it has the specs a 13" Powerbook should have.

Hmmm...doesn't look like it appears on the US site yet but check out the UK one at www.sonystyle.co.uk very cool!

G

no sony laptops have good graphics cards. sony is behind on nearly all of its technologies, and they just stick on a premium price tag and make their computers up to be the best on this planet with all of the newest ammenities.

So you are saying you have to pay for the warrenty on a dell.. The powerbook has free 1 year warrenty. The reason why apple doesn't have all those stuff as bto is because it already comes with the machine. You get alot more stuff with macs then you get with a pc standard.

dells all come with a one year warranty, and luckily dell will replace your computer for almost any problem (however small) you have with that machine. also, that one year warranty includes on site (at home) service, free of any charge whatsoever.

in the case of the 600m and without the educational discount, upgrading to a 3 year and ON SITE warranty costs $200. that is less than the price of applecare for a powerbook for three years, and i do not believe apple will come to your home and service or fix your machine.

for only $300, you can get a four year warranty including at home service. that's much less than apple's ****ty service policies, so you can't give dell any crap about that.

sure, you can say that dell makes piece o **** machines that will break or crack, and that is really not true for most of the time. in the rare case that your computer does break, dell will send a repairman to your home who will fix your problem, no questions asked.

[quagmire]

no sony laptops have good graphics cards. sony is behind on nearly all of its technologies, and they just stick on a premium price tag and make their computers up to be the best on this planet with all of the newest ammenities.



dells all come with a one year warranty, and luckily dell will replace your computer for almost any problem (however small) you have with that machine. also, that one year warranty includes on site (at home) service, free of any charge whatsoever.

in the case of the 600m and without the educational discount, upgrading to a 3 year and ON SITE warranty costs $200. that is less than the price of applecare for a powerbook for three years, and i do not believe apple will come to your home and service or fix your machine.

for only $300, you can get a four year warranty including at home service. that's much less than apple's ****ty service policies, so you can't give dell any crap about that.

sure, you can say that dell makes piece o **** machines that will break or crack, and that is really not true for most of the time. in the rare case that your computer does break, dell will send a repairman to your home who will fix your problem, no questions asked.

Dells do have great warrently service prices. I do admit Dell does a better job then apple does in prices. My brother owned three dells. When he had problems with all three dells under warrenty he had all sorts of probelms. He called dell and they sent tech people over. The people will rude, selfish, and self centered. He had about 4 problems with each dell while under warrenty. They avoided the probelm, and just gave him a new computer which was great but, my brother knew it was fixable. They didn't even transfer the files to the new computer and took the broken computer away. Luckly my brother had backed up his files. While just recently when my friend had his Powerbook replaced and the people there did transfer the files over and his settings. We are talking about 24 bad tech people. For some reason they sent 2 people. Same things happened to my friends and my brothers friends who owned dells and had problems with it. For now one he is building his pcs. I just hope you had better services. Also, I have read in these forums and other forums that when they had dells the service was crappy.

[jaw04005]

It depends what part of Arkansas he is in. I live in Little Rock and there is a compusa here that I work at with a really nice apple store that is kept up by our apple sales rep. If you are going to go the the compusa in Little Rock the best time would be in the afternoons and not on wed or thur cause those are the days Greg (the apple rep) is off. You should have your friend talk to him, Greg can talk almost anyone into an apple. :)

I would have to say for a CompUSA, you guys are pretty awesome. Especially, with the comments from other members of this forum about their local CompUSA. When I'm on "that side of town", I usually stop by. However, maybe you can convince them to open a store up in North Little Rock or Sherwood, so much more convenient! I've talked to the Apple rep before, I bought my iMac 15" there and he tried to sell me three ;)

Back to my friend, he is going to get a 12" Powerbook despite what his dad thinks. He actually went out to a PC notebook forum and they told him the only 12" with DVI are the Powerbook. Thanks for all the great comments and suggestions, both him and I both appreciate it!

[jaw04005]

Dells do have great warrently service prices. I do admit Dell does a better job then apple does in prices. My brother owned three dells. When he had problems with all three dells under warrenty he had all sorts of probelms. He called dell and they sent tech people over. The people will rude, selfish, and self centered. He had about 4 problems with each dell while under warrenty. They avoided the probelm, and just gave him a new computer which was great but, my brother knew it was fixable. They didn't even transfer the files to the new computer and took the broken computer away. Luckly my brother had backed up his files. While just recently when my friend had his Powerbook replaced and the people there did transfer the files over and his settings. We are talking about 24 bad tech people. For some reason they sent 2 people. Same things happened to my friends and my brothers friends who owned dells and had problems with it. For now one he is building his pcs. I just hope you had better services. Also, I have read in these forums and other forums that when they had dells the service was crappy.

Dell is okay. I like the fact that you can email them twice about any issue, and they will gladly ship a replacement with no questions asked. However, their technical support is a different issue. I live in the south, compared to other "folks", my accent is minor..... but I can not understand anything their support line representatives (based in India) say, nor can they understand me. It usually takes 10 to 15 minutes just to exchange the correct "Express Tag" (Dell's Customer/Serial Number). It’s very frustrating, and I've had their reps hang up on me... not to mention me hanging up on them. I try to use their email or online support options from now on. It’s really frustrating to wait 30 minutes on hold, and not be able to communicate with a representative.

[Mav451]

The price he is looking at is with the student discount apple gives which makes the 12" superdrive $1599.

I stand corrected.

[devwild]

My 2 cents on the dell vs powerbook thing.

First, there aren't many 1:1 comparisons to the powerbook 12". It is definitely a unique combo of features and size that Apple should be proud of. That said, it has the worst LCD I have ever seen on a recent laptop and for that alone I would never buy one, that's important to me. I don't know why apple didn't use the same screen type found in the 15" and 17", but it was a horrible choice.

Now, to Dell.

At the end of 2002, I bought a 1.3ghz 600m, right after they came out. It was the combination I had been waiting for in a PC, a combination Apple already had, but I didn't want an apple cause 1) I need a PC; so sue me, I like WinXP, and was and still am a Windows Sysadmin 2) price and 3) hardware annoyances like a low resolution LCD on the 15" powerbook for its size (I'm also into graphics), and only one mouse button.

At almost the same time, a good friend of mine bought a 1ghz 15" titanium (as it still was at the time) powerbook. Our two laptops were extremely comparable -- 40gig hd, cd-rw drive, radeon 9000, overall weight and size is comparable, etc. Primary differences were the screen (600m is 14" but higher res, 1400x1050), and that I had the truemobile wireless b/g card, he had airport (non-extreme).

My laptop cost just over $2000 with an extra battery for the CD-Rom bay (man I love having 8 hours battery life) and 3 year accidental coverage. I dropped the on site coverage to save money and get accedental care instead. Dell's service on laptops is outstanding shipped, on site is more worth it for desktops.

His cost about $2100 without Applecare through educational discount. He purchased that later.

We have both had to ship in our laptops for service, myself twice, once because of a cracked screen (replaced without question thanks to the accidental coverage. paid for itself right there). The service was identical, 1 day out, 1 day back. Both companies do a great job there.

I am not saying one is better than another here. My laptop was perfect for me. At the same time I really like OSX and am fighting the urge to purchase a new G5 for home, at least until after wwdc (common steve, how about a consumer level headless box again, some of us already own nice lcds).

However, my experience is that when you really find a close match, the PC will tend to be cheaper. Never go by Dell's MSRP. They *always* have a deal or will have one soon that will save you hundreds of dollars. That's something you rarely get with Apple; you always pay the same inflated price for that glowing fruit logo, anywhere, anytime unless used.

But the mac is worth it for it's own reasons. For the price you pay, you do turn heads, you do save yourself from a number of rediculous vulnerabilities (as an admin, I am intelligient enough not to corrupt the crap out of my windows box, but then, I know other admins who aren't), and have an amazing OS that truely brings UNIX to the family desktop for the first time.

And for those comparing against Sony's, well, the price is no surprise, Sony is another company where you pay for the brand. And they are currently worse than Apple about pushing proprietary hardware and software at you.

OK, so I've rambled on in many disjoint directions here, but there is a point. Pick what's right for you, no matter what it is. If it's your money, it doesn't matter what your father says, chances are he'll start talking about how cool your powerbook is in a month. But do your research, try it out.

The pictures on Apple's website won't tell you the 12" has a cheap LCD screen, and the pictures on Dell's won't tell you which of their cheaper models currently have flimsy chassis. Often, the reviews out there won't tell you what you want to know either, because as soon as you place your hands on one, you'll find some annoying bit you never thought of. Find a friend, go to a store, read tons of reviews, consider what you really want and don't want. Then go for it.

And enjoy!

dev*

[gekko513]

So I suppose we can conclude that a 12" PC notebook will be similarly priced, may need some dangling USB stuff to include all the wanted features and will come with less software.

One person claims to be able to get a PC notebook cheaper. I, too, have a friend who has a friend who can get me a new notebook that "wasn't needed by some business", but I prefer not to. ;)

[gekko513]

That said, it has the worst LCD I have ever seen on a recent laptop
They must have changed it. Someone who had been to an Apple store recently said here on macrumors that the 12" screen seemed brighter and more vibrant or something like that. I have the old 12" and I agree that the screen has very dull colors compared to my 17" desktop LCD.

[devwild]

They must have changed it. Someone who had been to an Apple store recently said here on macrumors that the 12" screen seemed brighter and more vibrant or something like that. I have the old 12" and I agree that the screen has very dull colors compared to my 17" desktop LCD.

That's very possible, I was looking at one in our university store today and it had the old screen (as well as the low contrast it has nasty ghosting, that's what actually kills it for me... no games, and impossible to read a scrolling unix terminal :) )

But they rarely get new floor models. If Apple really has changed the LCD, I should let them know they should pawn the thing off and get a new one, it's killing sales :D

Also, you note in my msg I compare the 600m to the 15" powerbook. The 600m can not be compared to the 12" like it has been here. It is larger, heavier, and has a tremendously higher resolution, 2" larger screen (12" 1024x768 vs 14" 1400x1050). The screen alone is enough to account for the price difference.

later,
dev*

[Palador]

So you are saying you have to pay for the warrenty on a dell.:eek:. The powerbook has free 1 year warrenty. The reason why apple doesn't have all those stuff as bto is because it already comes with the machine. You get alot more stuff with macs then you get with a pc standard.

No you dont have to pay extra for the 1 year warranty, it is standard. Although I do believe you can pay extra for anywhere between 2-5 years of warranty with Dell. I will say that I think their warranty support is certainly better though. Its quite easy to get an on-site tech from Dell.

However, The 600m does not even come close to a powerbook in terms of features. My friend Mike owns one and it is a POS lemme tell you... The only one up it has is the screen. Apple's LCDs are WAY behind in resolution, performance and brightness. Before you say 'go into an Apple store and look how beautiful they are!' please look up the specs.

[quagmire]

I have the rev b 12" powerbook. The screen is fine. It is bright and very sharp. I have seen better 12" screens. I have also seen worse 12" screens. So I say the Powerbooks 12" screen is acceptable.

[7on]

The PowerBook 12" RevC is listed Spec-wise as having a TFT screen, same as the 15" and 17" Powerbook.

The PowerBook 12" Revs A+B are listed Spec-wise as having TFT XGA screens, same as the iBooks.

My guess is that Apple had to wait for Samsung to make a 12" TFT LCD.