Juggling two languages as a child can slow mental decline

[professor]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5209379/

This could explain a few things...

[Desertrat]

I hadn't run across this before as having been determined by a study. Thinking about it, I'm not surprised. Older folks I know who function in English and "Border Tex-Mex" Spanish seem pretty sharp.

One thing for sure, though: The mind is a "use it or lose it" tool...

'Rat

[Ugg]

Bad news for Americans I guess.

It makes sense though and for what it's worth, all 4 of my grandparents were bilingual and they are/were all sharp as a tack. Too bad that bilingualism isn't supported more in the US, I don't mean just amongst immigrants but amongst native born kids as well. Those who don't learn to function in another language end up missing out on a lot.

[Frohickey]

Does Basic and English count? How about English and Pascal? ;)

[skunk]

Does Basic and English count? How about English and Pascal? ;)
How about English and American? :rolleyes:

[Voltron]

Does Basic and English count? How about English and Pascal? ;)
Basic, Cobol, Pascal, Some Assembler :p

[Ugg]

Does Basic and English count? How about English and Pascal? ;)

I think the key here is interhuman communication. Does your computer talk back to you in Basic and Pascal? If so it may count but if that's the case, you may want to consult a counselor just to be on the safe side :eek:

[Voltron]

I think the key here is interhuman communication. Does your computer talk back to you in Basic and Pascal? If so it may count but if that's the case, you may want to consult a counselor just to be on the safe side :eek:
It does have temper tantrums at times.

[Neserk]

Students who are in dual language immersion programs do better than students who are native English speakers on Standardized tests in English. There is where standardized tests are actually good. You can follow a group of chldren and see how their scores change. Students who know two language are cogntively advanced. It has been proven in multiple studies.

See Thomas & Colier for starters.

oops: I read the headline as causing mental decline :o

But then again I only know one language, although I've studied several.

[brap]

Students who are in dual language immersion programs do better than students who are native English speakers on Standardized tests in English.Doesn't this stand to reason? Knowing why it works, as opposed to knowing that it works, always helps in similair situations. It's the same with the foundation blocks of language, I seem to remember (although, shamefully I flunked out of French class because I couldn't be bothered! Ha!)

[Neserk]

Doesn't this stand to reason? Knowing why it works, as opposed to knowing that it works, always helps in similair situations. It's the same with the foundation blocks of language, I seem to remember (although, shamefully I flunked out of French class because I couldn't be bothered! Ha!)


You'd think. But there is a big jerk-off (can I say that?) named Unz who was bored and is trying convince everyone that Amercian children should only be taught in English despite all the actual evidence supporting bilingual education. He convinced the whole state of MA, CA, but was shot down in Colorado. It is now being challenged in the courts so hopefully his "English only" rampage will end soon.

[Abstract]

Well I guess it makes sense. Same thing with people who are not normally amniodexterous, but learn to use their left-handed efficiently if they're right handed. Just use your brain, and you won't lose it.

And children who know 2 languages score better on English tests because understanding another language allows someone to notice more about their own language and make comparisons. You can learn a lot that way. Its similar to moving to another country for a while. By experiencing another culture, you notice these small things about your home country that you never notice otherwise because it doesn't stand out and doesn't seem significant.

[Neserk]

Well I guess it makes sense. Same thing with people who are not normally amniodexterous, but learn to use their left-handed efficiently if they're right handed. Just use your brain, and you won't lose it.

And children who know 2 languages score better on English tests because understanding another language allows someone to notice more about their own language and make comparisons. You can learn a lot that way. Its similar to moving to another country for a while. By experiencing another culture, you notice these small things about your home country that you never notice otherwise because it doesn't stand out and doesn't seem significant.


That is the theory. You also learn to think out of the box, it creates mental flexibility. I know that just the act of studying (no fluency) Greek greatly improved my English, so imagine what actually becoming fluent means!

[zimv20]

just the act of studying (no fluency) Greek greatly improved my English, so imagine what actually becoming fluent means!
you could speak greek?

:-)

[Neserk]

you could speak greek?

:-)

not really. I could decode it fluently but understood very little. With a lexicon I could give rough translations. Mostly I could find errors in translations ;)

[zimv20]

not really. I could decode it fluently but understood very little. With a lexicon I could give rough translations. Mostly I could find errors in translations ;)
ack! i should have been more clear. my joke should have read:
you would be able to speak greek?

...it seemed funny from here....

[Neserk]

ack! i should have been more clear. my joke should have read:
you would be able to speak greek?

...it seemed funny from here....


oh... LOL...

My dad's favorite joke: It's all Greek to you!

[takao]

very interesting but i guess there are differences what languages you learned...

knowing german and english relativly good (i had my problems with french) won't help me much with other languages because both are (rather) similiar and share much in common

if somebody knows russian,english and latin..well then he has perhaps a lot more benefits

i wished i had bilingual parents..would be really cool to speak 2 languages fluently

[skunk]

i wished i had bilingual parents..would be really cool to speak 2 languages fluently
If half the people on this forum could speak english as well as you, they'd have good reason to be proud of themselves. :)

[Voltron]

Students who are in dual language immersion programs do better than students who are native English speakers on Standardized tests in English. There is where standardized tests are actually good. You can follow a group of chldren and see how their scores change. .
You can do this on any subject.

[Frohickey]

That is the theory. You also learn to think out of the box, it creates mental flexibility.

But parents are told not to let their children play with refrigerator boxes... ;)

[numediaman]

L'étude d'une autre langue est une perte de temps. Mais le Français parlant vous aide avec des filles.

[No attacking my infantile French].

[zimv20]

L'étude d'une autre langue est une perte de temps. Mais le Français parlant vous aide avec des filles.

using babelfish to translate from french to english to german back to english yields the second sentence as:
"But the speaking Frenchmen help you with girls."

[numediaman]

using babelfish to translate from french to english to german back to english yields the second sentence as:
"But the speaking Frenchmen help you with girls."

Babelfish is to translation as Windows is to an OS.

[BOSOX78250]

Well, I can tell you from personal experience as someone who grew up with two portugues and english speaking parents.

This is not always the case because both of my parents are real idiots!!!![/B]

[skunk]

Well, I can tell you from personal experience as someone who grew up with two portugues and english speaking parents.

This is not always the case because both of my parents are real idiots!!!![/B]
LOL :D

[skunk]

L'étude d'une autre langue est une perte de temps. Mais le Français parlant vous aide avec des filles.

[No attacking my infantile French].
Apart from the infantile French :rolleyes: (try: mais parler français... :cool: ), why would it be a perte de temps? It's a seriously good way to learn about a culture.

[jsw]

You'd think. But there is a big jerk-off (can I say that?) named Unz who was bored and is trying convince everyone that Amercian children should only be taught in English despite all the actual evidence supporting bilingual education. He convinced the whole state of MA, CA, but was shot down in Colorado. It is now being challenged in the courts so hopefully his "English only" rampage will end soon.

One of the problems, at least here in Massachusetts, has been that "bilingual" typically means "native tongue". Even the "bilingual" teachers have been flunking English.

I completely agree with the benefits of learning multiple languages. I also think that, in the US, English should be a required language. I think that students graduating from high school should be fluent in it. Period. Whether they were born here or abroad. Of course, if someone arrives at age 17, I don't expect fluency in a year. But that's a special case. I don't have a problem with signs here also being in Spanish. I have a problem with them only being in Spanish, as they are in many places near me.

It is not that I think English is a superior language. Frankly, I'd be easily convinced that Spanish, French, Mandarin, _____ [fill in the blank] is better. I just want the official national language - whatever it is - to be a priority.

This is also, I think, better for the kids. I don't see a great deal of opportunity for the best jobs for those who don't speak English here. It's easier to stick with what your parents speak, granted. But I don't want the schools to enforce that just because it's easier.

Note that there is a HUGE difference between "English only" and "English mandatory". The latter does nothing to impinge upon other languages in the classroom, as long as the kids learn English as well, in some class, before they graduate or move beyond a certain grade.

[numediaman]

Apart from the infantile French :rolleyes: (try: mais parler français... :cool: ), why would it be a perte de temps? It's a seriously good way to learn about a culture.

Gee skunk, was my American humor to dry for you? Want to help translate for me the next time I visit Paris? (You pay your own way, of course. :D)

Actually, a better way to learn about another culture (that is, in another country) is to go there, and immediately ask the first person who doesn't speak your language to marry you. I've never done it, but I'm sure it will lead to some interesting events. (Don't try this in the U.S., however, because of the number of concealed guns.)

Below: I prefer Brut.

[skunk]

Gee skunk, was my American humor to dry for you? :D
Très sec. :rolleyes:

[Voltron]

Gee skunk, was my American humor to dry for you? Want to help translate for me the next time I visit Paris? (You pay your own way, of course. :D)

Actually, a better way to learn about another culture (that is, in another country) is to go there, and immediately ask the first person who doesn't speak your language to marry you. I've never done it, but I'm sure it will lead to some interesting events. (Don't try this in the U.S., however, because of the number of concealed guns.)

Below: I prefer Brut.
ich liben due. It works great in Germany. Till they ask "didn't you just say that to that other girl?" oops ich liben alles frauleins.

[skunk]

ich liben due. It works great in Germany. Till they ask "didn't you just say that to that other girl?" oops ich liben alles frauleins.
You must have been a great hit with that line. ;)

[numediaman]

You must have been a great hit with that line. ;)

His trip to Germany must explain why he thinks he's Franz Liebkind now.

[Neserk]

You can do this on any subject.

:confused:

The overall problem with Standarized testing is that it is suppose to be saying something about the teacher. The score means something for the individual child year to year but not in isolation. I understand it although I find it hard to explain.

Because the tests show how well a student takes the test you can use it show how their ability to take the tests changes from year to year. For native English speakers it stays pretty consistent. For students who don't speak English as a first language you will see it do different things depending on what kind of English Language program they are in. If they are in a dual immersion program their scores will actually go above the 50th percentile (as a whole group). If they are in English Immersion classes they will initally be below the 50th percentile, go up a bit (trying to recall the graph) and then will drop dramatically. *That* shows something because you are seeing the same students and comparing how they perform on the same test from year to year. What it doesn't show is how smart and individual student is or how good the teacher is, etc.

[Neserk]

Well, I can tell you from personal experience as someone who grew up with two portugues and english speaking parents.

This is not always the case because both of my parents are real idiots!!!!

What happens in some cases is that people don't become truly bilingual. They can speak survival language in two languages but do not learn academic language (the language of learning) in either language. This is the problem with English Only and English Immersion classes.

[Neserk]

One of the problems, at least here in Massachusetts, has been that "bilingual" typically means "native tongue". Even the "bilingual" teachers have been flunking English.

I completely agree with the benefits of learning multiple languages. I also think that, in the US, English should be a required language. I think that students graduating from high school should be fluent in it. Period. Whether they were born here or abroad. Of course, if someone arrives at age 17, I don't expect fluency in a year. But that's a special case. I don't have a problem with signs here also being in Spanish. I have a problem with them only being in Spanish, as they are in many places near me.

It is not that I think English is a superior language. Frankly, I'd be easily convinced that Spanish, French, Mandarin, _____ [fill in the blank] is better. I just want the official national language - whatever it is - to be a priority.

This is also, I think, better for the kids. I don't see a great deal of opportunity for the best jobs for those who don't speak English here. It's easier to stick with what your parents speak, granted. But I don't want the schools to enforce that just because it's easier.

Note that there is a HUGE difference between "English only" and "English mandatory". The latter does nothing to impinge upon other languages in the classroom, as long as the kids learn English as well, in some class, before they graduate or move beyond a certain grade.


This is what happens: A child's brain is programmed in language X. They go to school in a country where the dominant langauge is language Y. The child's parents and teachers who are more educated by the newspaper than they are by actual research decide the child must learn language Y, period. So, they place the child in a Language Y only classroom. The child learns language Y quite well. But s/he learns how to converse with students, the teacher, etc. The child is actually translating from language Y to language X. When the child learns words that tell him how to take away, add to, etc. etc. s/he has no programmed language to translate these words into. Child struggles in school. Child is only able to learn those things for which s/he has in native language (Language X). New information in language Y goes *woosh* because their is nothing to translate it to.

Solution: Child either needs to be in a bilingual classroom through the 5th grade where s/he is taught academics in language X (native language) and taught language Y; or child needs to be in a Dual Langauge Immersion program where s/he is simultaneoulsy taught language X & Y with native speakers from both languages. All other programs fail. Dual Immersion has the greatest success.

[Frohickey]

This is what happens: A child's brain is programmed in language X. They go to school in a country where the dominant langauge is language Y. The child's parents and teachers who are more educated by the newspaper than they are by actual research decide the child must learn language Y, period. So, they place the child in a Language Y only classroom. The child learns language Y quite well. But s/he learns how to converse with students, the teacher, etc. The child is actually translating from language Y to language X. When the child learns words that tell him how to take away, add to, etc. etc. s/he has no programmed language to translate these words into. Child struggles in school. Child is only able to learn those things for which s/he has in native language (Language X). New information in language Y goes *woosh* because their is nothing to translate it to.

Solution: Child either needs to be in a bilingual classroom through the 5th grade where s/he is taught academics in language X (native language) and taught language Y; or child needs to be in a Dual Langauge Immersion program where s/he is simultaneoulsy taught language X & Y with native speakers from both languages. All other programs fail. Dual Immersion has the greatest success.

Your solution makes the assumption that the brain is preprogrammed and cannot be reprogrammed.

Neurons make new connections as you learn new concepts and things, and other connections grow weaker as you 'unlearn' old concepts and things. Not all of the old connections go away, sometimes, there is a residual memory (scents, emotions, etc) that will trigger some thought.

[Neserk]

Your solution makes the assumption that the brain is preprogrammed and cannot be reprogrammed.

Neurons make new connections as you learn new concepts and things, and other connections grow weaker as you 'unlearn' old concepts and things. Not all of the old connections go away, sometimes, there is a residual memory (scents, emotions, etc) that will trigger some thought.

It isn't an assumption :rolleyes: It has been proven in multiple studies following actual real live children in real live classrooms in real live US and Canada where various programs are used.

Do a search on "Thomas & Colier" +"bilingual". If you are interested in educating yourself on the matter. You'll find the results of the reasearch quite interesting.

[BOSOX78250]

What happens in some cases is that people don't become truly bilingual. They can speak survival language in two languages but do not learn academic language (the language of learning) in either language. This is the problem with English Only and English Immersion classes.

That makes matters even worse because my parents speak both languages fluntly.... AND THERE IDIOTS! :o

[skunk]

That makes matters even worse because my parents speak both languages fluntly.... AND THERE IDIOTS! :o
Don't wash your dirty genes in public. ;)

[radhak]

Well, I can tell you from personal experience as someone who grew up with two portugues and english speaking parents.

This is not always the case because both of my parents are real idiots!!!![/B]
take it easy, don't go postal on us.

maybe they had a tough life, like handling kids who are out of line...

[professor]

Your solution makes the assumption that the brain is preprogrammed and cannot be reprogrammed.

Neurons make new connections as you learn new concepts and things, and other connections grow weaker as you 'unlearn' old concepts and things. Not all of the old connections go away, sometimes, there is a residual memory (scents, emotions, etc) that will trigger some thought.

All theory is grey! It's not either or. The brain has ample capacity for more than one language. Just come and visit Europe and witness how a hot-dog salesperson in Helsinki talks to you in fluent English (just with a minor Finnish accent), waiters in Holland or Poland switch back and forth among three languages, high school kids in Germany learn two languages apart from their own, some even a forth on the side, just for the fun of it.

The total immersion thing is, however, what makes a language stick. So, consequently, there are many exchange programs available in Europe. Many kids spend a year abroad at the age of 16; there are summer camps in other countries with international youth. You name it. This puts Americans at a big disadvantage, because, as I was told, they can't spend time abroad, because they have to work so hard for their grades so they get stipends so their parents can afford college... There are Americans (and Canadians - even worse!) who say why learn a foreign language... everybody in the World speaks English! And then you watch the news, see the shielded American embassies around the world, as well as other things, and you wonder if there isn't a connection...

[Sayhey]

All theory is grey!

Trying to sneak a little subliminal Goethe in on us! :eek: It won't work. Our American minds are resistant to all such attempts to force classical education on us. You might as well try to get us to speak another language when we all know that English is God's official language. Nice try, professor! ;)

[professor]

Trying to sneak a little subliminal Goethe in on us! :eek: It won't work. Our American minds are resistant to all such attempts to force classical education on us. You might as well try to get us to speak another language when we all know that English is God's official language. Nice try, professor! ;)

I'm stunned! While "BOSOX78250" laments the sorry state of his family in this forum, and with "Voltron" still practising his first language, you know how to spell Goethe!!!
You must be a glitch! :p

[Sayhey]

I'm stunned! While "BOSOX78250" laments the sorry state of his family in this forum, and with "Voltron" still practising his first language, you know how to spell Goethe!!!
You must be a glitch! :p

Yes, glitch is my middle name! Of course, my correctly spelling Goethe is only because I couldn't find the umlaut key. I was sure it must be in there somewhere. :confused:

Seriously, it is sad that so much of the funding for teaching other languages has been cut from public schools. When I was a kid all the middle and high schools had language labs and every student had to take classes in the language of their choice. Much of that is gone as a result of a "return to basics" movement (really an attempt to gut public education.) Now much of this is restricted to underfunded high school programs and, I believe, it is optional. I guess it helps if you want to dismiss the views of other cultures to not have many people who can understand what they are saying.

[zimv20]

I'm stunned! While "BOSOX78250" laments the sorry state of his family in this forum, and with "Voltron" still practising his first language, you know how to spell Goethe!!!
You must be a glitch! :p
and i bet at least a few of us americans know how to pronounce it :-)

[Neserk]

and i bet at least a few of us americans know how to pronounce it :-)


Goth or Goth? (short o or long o?)

[skunk]

Goth or Goth? (short o or long o?)
Actually, it's "er" (with a silent "r"). Rhymes with "frankfurter". ;)

[Neserk]

Actually, it's "er" (with a silent "r"). Rhymes with "frankfurter". ;)


ack! you're no help you speak with an English accent :p

http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=Goethe click on the megaphone

[skunk]

ack! you're no help you speak with an English accent :p
How can you tell??? :eek:

[Neserk]

How can you tell??? :eek:

It is one of your charms ;)