Is it worth it to drive a stick? (Where can you rent a car to learn how?)

[Luigi239]

I may be buying a car in the next 6 months (my first one) and I'm thinking about getting it with a manual transmission. It seems just fun to drive, and I've heard you get better gas millage and control over your car. So my first question, is it worth it to get my car with a manual vs. an automatic? Is it harder to use once you have learned how? I'm a new driver, so I'm worried that it will just be another distraction.

The other thing is where can I rent a stick shift vehicle to learn on? My uncle is more than willing to teach me, but doesn't have car we can use to learn on. I've heard that most car rental places won't rent a stick out to you. I live in Charlotte, NC if that matters.

Thanks.

[thegoldenmackid]

You have to be 25 to rent a car. But it's def. worth it.

[gatepc]

I would say if you live in a hilly area get an automatic ( you will burn out your clutch ) if you live in relatively flat area I say get a shift if your willing to learn it because you get more control over the vehicle. But if you don't want to be bothered with it again you can always get an automatic.

[Luigi239]

You have to be 25 to rent a car. But it's def. worth it.

Well my uncle is more than old enough. At the rental place, can the car be rented out to him with me driving it? Or will that cause a problem if for instance we got into an accident.

[swiftaw]

When renting the car, you have to list all the people who will be driving it.

Most rental agencies will not allow anyone under 25 to drive their cars, however some do but will charge an extra fee for it.

Also, the vast majority of rental cars in the US are automatics. I have rented many cars in the US and have never been given a standard transmission.

[killerrobot]

Well my uncle is more than old enough. At the rental place, can the car be rented out to him with me driving it? Or will that cause a problem if for instance we got into an accident.

He can rent it and add you as a driver, but the rental place will charge up the wazoo because you're under 25.

You'd have to check out each rental place to see if they have manuals, because even most of the economy rentals are still automatic.

You should just go to a car dealership and say you're interested in buying a car, and take it out for a spin with your uncle.

EDIT: Beaten to the punch...

[jknight8907]

I would say if you live in a hilly area get an automatic ( you will burn out your clutch ) if you live in relatively flat area I say get a shift if your willing to learn it because you get more control over the vehicle. But if you don't want to be bothered with it again you can always get an automatic.

If you have anything close to good skills, hilly areas won't noticeably decrease your clutch life.

[LizKat]

I would say if you live in a hilly area get an automatic ( you will burn out your clutch ) if you live in relatively flat area I say get a shift if your willing to learn it because you get more control over the vehicle. But if you don't want to be bothered with it again you can always get an automatic.

WHAT?? The best reason in the world for getting a stick is living in a hilly area! Saves your brakes big time, saves on gas... essential for getting up and down slippery hills in winter.

I rented a Corolla once, an automatic, and went nuts listening to the thing forever hunting through various ranges of its whole repertoire of gears, trying to find the right one in the hilly, curvy back roads.

"Not now, you idiot!" I kept saying on one stretch where the road rises, goes around a down-dipping curve and then rises again... that car invariably shifted out in the curve, even if I took my foot off the gas, and then I had to drop it into the low slot to get to the top of the next long rise.

Of course me trying to drop an automatic into low is always pretty comical to begin with, since my foot naturally expects :confused: to find a clutch :eek: when my hand is on the stick.

Anyway when I bought my first stick I had someone drive me and it to a level back road, where I could learn how to drive it properly. Then I graduated to a circuit of back roads that traversed hills so I could learn to start from a standstill without stalling or rolling backwards. It's not at all hard once you've done it a few times, but you do not, not, not want to learn this on a freeway ramp in the rush hour.

Have fun! :) You will not regret choosing a stick.

[Luigi239]

Anyway when I bought my first stick I had someone drive me and it to a level back road, where I could learn how to drive it properly. Then I graduated to a circuit of back roads that traversed hills so I could learn to start from a standstill without stalling or rolling backwards. It's not at all hard once you've done it a few times, but you do not, not, not want to learn this on a freeway ramp in the rush hour.


That's how my uncle learned it actually. He bought a '60 something Ford Mustang, and his dad had to drive it home for him, and then taught him how to drive it.

My biggest fear is that I'm going to get a car with a stick, and then find it extremely annoying to drive it. Even though you say I won't regret it, I'm still very nervous :P

[LizKat]

Nah, you will love it. And be cool :cool:

[Badandy]

My biggest fear is that I'm going to get a car with a stick, and then find it extremely annoying to drive it. Even though you say I won't regret it, I'm still very nervous :P

I've had a stick shift ever since I've started driving and I wouldn't trade it for the world. It enhances the connectio between you and your car and it's just damn fun. Unless you're in awful traffic every day of your life, get one. You'll love it.

[candan9019]

and I've heard you get better gas millage and control over your car.

It seems a lot of the newer automatic transmissions actually get better milage than manuals do, but as for control absolutely.

Super fun sometimes but when your tired or stuck in traffic it can be a pain.

[Signal-11]

Depends on you. If you really want to learn manual, then learn.

There are places and times where automatic is much more convenient. If you drive primarily in a very hilly, urban area with heavy stop and go traffic, you're better off with an automatic.

Otherwise, it's a personal preference thing.

[Mavimao]

The hardest part about learning how to drive a stick shift is getting the car moving in first gear. It takes practice to get that correct combination of clutch/gas but after that, it's all in the details ;)

[spillproof]

It is good to know how to drive a manual even if you don't own one. The knowledge could come in handy someday.

[Melodic]

If you are going to drive in bumper to bumper traffic often (constant clutch in clutch out) or if you live in hilly areas (parallel parking on a hill sucks) then you might find it frustrating. Other than that is FUN! I love driving stick except in NY rush hour

[xlii]

I learned how to drive in 1969, when I was 16. We had 2 cars, an automatic and a standard. I learned on the automatic because it was easier to drive... easier to pass the driving test... without needed to shift gears... one less thing for me to think about.

After I got my license and had a little experience driving that automatic around, I taught myself how to drive the standard. The only difference is the shift-clutch-gas interaction. I practiced that by backing the car up and down the driveway. After a short time... I got it. The coordination was there.

Standards are a lot of fun to drive. You need to listen to the engine. The engine will tell you when to shift up or down.

Hills are no big deal except for this... It's snowing the hill is steep and you are in a line of stop and go cars snaking up the hill. The guy behind you is right on your bumper. You need to use your handbrake to prevent you from rolling backwards when you take your foot off the brake and clutch after you've shifted from neutral to 1st... inch forward and then stop again. Repeat that many times. Other than that you'll love driving a standard.

So... my advice is to learn on an automatic. Get your license, and get some hours behind the wheel of that automatic. After you feel comfortable there... you can think about learning on a standard. The only difference then will be the clutch shift break gas interaction.

[Don't panic]

you're sipping an aperitif outside a cafe' in cote d'azur. You lock eyes with the girl of your dreams. she motions to the side of the street and points to her cabrio parked nearby. she throws you the keys and says: "you drive".
you catch the keys, get to the car and notice, to your eternal horror and shame, that it's a stick....



sticks are most definitively more fun to drive in general (especially if you like sportsy driving), while automatic transmission is much more convenient in city and heavy traffic: when you're stuck on the FDR going at 1 mile per hour, the fun of the stick quickly fades away.

milage can be significantly better on the stick (if you drive economically), but modern automatics are not as bad as they used to be.

an added advantage of learning to properly drive a manual, is (as hinted above) if you plan on traveling: cars around the world tend to be overwhelmingly standard transmission.

that said, a good alternative that merges the good aspects of both type of transmissions is those where you can 'shift' from one to the other, like tip-tronic , steptronic and the like

[OutThere]

My biggest fear is that I'm going to get a car with a stick, and then find it extremely annoying to drive it. Even though you say I won't regret it, I'm still very nervous :P

Give it two weeks and you won't have a worry driving it, 2 months and it's 2nd nature, six months and you'll never want to drive an automatic again. :D

I got my permit and learned to drive a car for the first time with a manual transmission, took my license test with a stick and have never had a second thought.

Even modern and advanced automatics don't seem to give you that great feeling of really having the machine attached to your hands and feet, like you have absolute precise control of how fast the engine is spinning and how much power you're putting to the road.

edit: Sticks are also great because you have an excuse to not lend your car to a majority of people. "Yo brah, can I borrow your wheels tonight?" "It's a stick shift" "Damn dude I'll ask Kevin for his car."

[InvalidUserID]

Yes because chirping your wheels and revving the snot out of the engine is fun.

[OutThere]

Yes because chirping your wheels and revving the snot out of the engine is fun.

I love to rev the engine in neutral, bounce off the limiter and watch the hood lean a little bit. :D

[SactoGuy18]

The only thing though is that unless you drive a really cheap car or a specialized sports car, manuals may become less and less common as the cost of dual-clutch transmissions come down and new continously variable transmissions based on Fallbrook Technologies' NuVinci CVP start to become available in the next several years.

Already, VW has been quite successful with their DSG dual-clutch gearbox, and we may see almost every Ferrari with a dual-clutch transmission within the next 4-5 years.

[moral-hazard]

I drive a 6-speed manual. Wouldn't have it any other way.

Then again, I race so its sort of a given (drag and autocross). But even if I didn't, I would prefer it. You do get better mileage assuming you don't drive like a fool, more control, etc. Automatics are laggy and boring to drive IMO.

[dukebound85]

WHAT?? The best reason in the world for getting a stick is living in a hilly area! Saves your brakes big time, saves on gas... essential for getting up and down slippery hills in winter.
.
always wise to wear out the clutch while engine breaking vs using the cheaper brakes lol /sarcasm

motorcycles are the best manuals! rthough my stick shift car is fun too. just alot slower lol

[shaunymac]

Nearly everything has been said. If you have any dirt bike/motorcycle experience, it will come much much easier to you.

I have a manual as a DD. Simply put, when I get in a car with an automatic, I get bored. Everything is too automated, esp. in todays cars.

If you end up getting a manual, you will feel connected to your car and will be able to shift up/down when you want to, not when transmission deams neccessary. This can be very important. Ex. slowing down, going down hills, or simply cruising in a gear you want.

I know some of these newer auto's are getting close to manuals but they are still not there and they definately can't replace the feeling it gives you.

Oh, and you won't burn up your clutch if you learn how to drive. You will probably stall quite a bit in the beginning and ride the clutch as well but you will be fine.

Any ideas on what kind of car/truck you are getting?

[yg17]

The only thing though is that unless you drive a really cheap car or a specialized sports car, manuals may become less and less common as the cost of dual-clutch transmissions come down and new continously variable transmissions based on Fallbrook Technologies' NuVinci CVP start to become available in the next several years.

Already, VW has been quite successful with their DSG dual-clutch gearbox, and we may see almost every Ferrari with a dual-clutch transmission within the next 4-5 years.

I have a manual VW GTI but have driven a DSG GTI, and the DSG is great and no human could possibly shift faster than the DSG (8 ms I think is the shift time for it), but the manual is still a hell of a lot more fun. I hope manuals aren't replaced with DSGs.

[LizKat]

always wise to wear out the clutch while engine breaking vs using the cheaper brakes lol /sarcasm

motorcycles are the best manuals! rthough my stick shift car is fun too. just alot slower lol

Still got the original clutch AND no bills for brakes. Helps to be driving roads I know like back of my own hand.

[dukebound85]

Still got the original clutch AND no bills for brakes. Helps to be driving roads I know like back of my own hand.

you havent replaced brake pads yet? how many miles?

my stock clutch on my car gave out at 110k miles. just wouldnt accelerate anymore and couldnt go uphills lol

[shaunymac]

One more thing, dont be put off by one second about owning a manual bc newer transmissions are coming out. We have seen this cycle before. Automatics came out and sent the lowly manual down to basic equipment. However, in the US, nearly the only way to get manual now is in a "sports car." Imagine that."

Now with this dual friction clutch automatic, it is the same thing. Blah blah blah. Manuals hold more power and I know that I can work on them.

Being 16, now will be the time to really learn how to work on a car. Most people wouldn't touch an automatic if they happen to go out. A manual on the other hand, you might just be able to take care of it.

Sorry, that just reminded me of another reason why I drive a manual, autos can go out at any given moment. It's happened to me. Not fun.

[Luigi239]

Thanks everybody for your input. At the very least, I decided I want to learn how, and from there I'll decide about buying a stick :)


Any ideas on what kind of car/truck you are getting?

Unfortunately, most likely something cheap and boring like a Honda Civic or VW Jetta. I've been looking around and it seems like there are just as many manual Jettas as there are automatic, and there are lots on Craigslist to choose from. Plus, I think the Jetta is more interesting than a Civic.

Only thing is that most of the Jettas in my price range have a ton of miles, 100,000 - 150,000+. Is that too many to consider buying, even if it seems to be in good shape? During college when I have more money, I can see myself upgrading to something newer, so let's say it has to last me at least 3 years...hopefully more.

[dukebound85]

One more thing, dont be put off by one second about owning a manual bc newer transmissions are coming out. We have seen this cycle before. Automatics came out and sent the lowly manual down to basic equipment. However, in the US, nearly the only way to get manual now is in a "sports car." Imagine that."

Now with this dual friction clutch automatic, it is the same thing. Blah blah blah. Manuals hold more power and I know that I can work on them.

Being 16, now will be the time to really learn how to work on a car. Most people wouldn't touch an automatic if they happen to go out. A manual on the other hand, you might just be able to take care of it.

Sorry, that just reminded me of another reason why I drive a manual, autos can go out at any given moment. It's happened to me. Not fun.

unless you have like lifts and stuff, working on a cars transmission, even if manual, is still quite an undertaking

Thanks everybody for your input. At the very least, I decided I want to learn how, and from there I'll decide about buying a stick :)



Unfortunately, most likely something cheap and boring like a Honda Civic or VW Jetta. I've been looking around and it seems like there are just as many manual Jettas as there are automatic, and there are lots on Craigslist to choose from. Plus, I think the Jetta is more interesting than a Civic.

Only thing is that most of the Jettas in my price range have a ton of miles, 100,000 - 150,000+. Is that too many to consider buying, even if it seems to be in good shape? During college when I have more money, I can see myself upgrading to something newer, so let's say it has to last me at least 3 years...hopefully more.

100k isnt that bad

as far as upgrading, i am still driving my first car after 9 years of having it and its a 1990. alot cheaper than having a car payment

if you take care of it, it will last a while

[LizKat]

you havent replaced brake pads yet? how many miles?

my stock clutch on my car gave out at 110k miles. just wouldnt accelerate anymore and couldnt go uphills lol

Only 12k since I bought it (used, with new brakes).

My 88 Escort had 186k miles on it, original clutch but the linkage got welded a few times when reverse quit cooperating.

[jeffzoom91]

How to make the transmission decision:

Do you enjoy driving? If so, is the car you're buying going to be enjoyable to drive?

If "yes" crossed your mind at any point along the way, I believe your pedals shall be numbered three.

[yg17]

Thanks everybody for your input. At the very least, I decided I want to learn how, and from there I'll decide about buying a stick :)



Unfortunately, most likely something cheap and boring like a Honda Civic or VW Jetta. I've been looking around and it seems like there are just as many manual Jettas as there are automatic, and there are lots on Craigslist to choose from. Plus, I think the Jetta is more interesting than a Civic.

Only thing is that most of the Jettas in my price range have a ton of miles, 100,000 - 150,000+. Is that too many to consider buying, even if it seems to be in good shape? During college when I have more money, I can see myself upgrading to something newer, so let's say it has to last me at least 3 years...hopefully more.

The Jetta will definitely be more fun to drive than a Civic, but German cars are more expensive to fix than Japanese ones and with 100,000+ miles, something's eventually going to break, so keep that in mind.

[SactoGuy18]

Now with this dual friction clutch automatic, it is the same thing. Blah blah blah. Manuals hold more power and I know that I can work on them.


Older dual-clutch transmissions tended to be fairly complex but thanks to the work done by Borg-Warner, Getrag and Ford, there is a new dry-plate dual-clutch tranmission (which will be built under the name Powershift) that is actually not much more complicated than a regular manual transmission. You will see this first on the 2011 Ford Fiesta for the North American market, which will arrive around March 2010.

They're also working on DCTs that can handle more powerful engines and engines with narrow power peaks. I would not be surprised that Honda has investigated using a DCT for their more sporting versions of the Honda Civic.

[FX120]

Older Jettas in perticular are famous for their electrial issues, that can take even a superb mechanic hours to trace down and sort out.

I'd pass on anything German unless you're good with a multimeter and have hours to spend tracking down problems as they pop up. And honestly, if you've got that ammount of time to work on your car, you'd be better of just buying something like a 86+ Porsche 944, which go for next to nothing these days, and are fantastic little cars. I had one many years ago, and boy was it a joy to drive. Easy on gas, pretty quick (even quicker if you find a Turbo), handled like it was on rails. But they do have their share of electrical and mechanical problems that unless you can fix yourself, get really expensive quickly.

Personally, I'd look for an early 90's econobox, Civic, Corolla, Escort, ect. They'll be easy to find with a stick, and are pretty low cost. Plus when you wreck it (which you probably will), you're not going to have a hard time parting with it.

[twistedlegato]

As a suggestion, look into some manual Infiniti G20's!

They're reliable (they're Nissan) and more fun to drive than a civic for sure :)

[LumbermanSVO]

always wise to wear out the clutch while engine breaking vs using the cheaper brakes lol /sarcasm

Engine braking will NOT wear out the clutch unless you decide to slip it the whole way, and there is no reason for that.

The clutches in big trucks work just the same as the clutch in every other car out there, yet we get 400k+ out of them with a LOT of engine braking, in a LOT heavier vehicle, even with the jakes on.

[kainjow]

You have to be 25 to rent a car.

Not everywhere. Some places let you rent a car under 25 but they'll charge you more.

[Gonzo3333]

I have owned 2 cars and both have been manual transmissions. They are much more fun to drive and will help you develop good driving skills. If you live in an area that gets snow or ice you will find that a manual transmission will give you much greater control when your tires start spinning.

Learning how to drive it shouldn't take you more that 20 minutes to get the "feel". It will take you another month or so to have an excellent understanding of how it works.

I was the first one of all my friends to have a stick shift car, then after I taught most of my buddies how to drive one they all got one. The only downside for me was when I would park my car in my driveway (when I lived with my parents) and my mom or dad needed to move the car. None of them knew how to drive it. The hills and traffic are not that bad and should not be something to really complain about unless you have a bad left knee. It will just become another part of driving like using your turn signal or turning on your headlights.

[yg17]

Not everywhere. Some places let you rent a car under 25 but they'll charge you more.

Doesn't matter, none of the major rental companies in the US rent manuals.

[Signal-11]

Doesn't matter, none of the major rental companies in the US rent manuals.

Very few of the specialty rental places have manuals, either. Two years ago, I tried looking for a nice convertible sports car to rent for a weekend in LA and all of them, including the Porsches, Aston Martins, etc, were all automatic.

I think the only manual rental I've ever driven in the US was a Saab Viggen around five years ago in DC.

[heed]

I would say it depends on the car. If you're getting a cheap car with not much of an engine to have fun with, I don't think it's worth it to get a stick.

Driving around town or in traffic really sucks with a stick.

Oh and by the way you can easily engine brake with an automatic, just put it in the "2" or "3" mode, where you only allow it to use the bottom 2 or 3 gears.

Very few of the specialty rental places have manuals, either. Two years ago, I tried looking for a nice convertible sports car to rent for a weekend in LA and all of them, including the Porsches, Aston Martins, etc, were all automatic.

I think the only manual rental I've ever driven in the US was a Saab Viggen around five years ago in DC.

I rented a Porsche in LA not long ago, that had Tiptronic, with the shifters on the stearing wheel. Had a lot of fun up and down Sunset with it :)

[LizKat]

Driving around town or in traffic really sucks with a stick.

Yeah too bad everyone's not driving a stick in traffic --> no time left to text while driving.

[Signal-11]

I would say it depends on the car. If you're getting a cheap car with not much of an engine to have fun with, I don't think it's worth it to get a stick.

I dunno know. I think you get a lot more out of an anemic four banger with a manual than an automatic. I have no interest in driving a V-8 luxobarge with a manual. Performance cars are another story.

[designgeek]

Driving stick is something everyone should know how to do. I love my little BMW stick. You have way more control especially in the winter. Autos frequently have the "top of the hill flip out" and this causes me to buy manual transmissions. They're so much more fun too, autos are boring.

[Gonzo3333]

^^
1+ automatic transmissions are very boring. You should just go out and buy a cheapo car that has a stick. It wont take long to learn. Honda's are very easy to learn on.

[steviem]

Learn to drive a manual car, it may take a little longer to learn the biting point and things, but it will mean you can drive just about any car.

The main thing with driving (in terms of road safety) is to be so comfortable with the controls that you are concentrating on road position, observing the hazards coming up, what you have passed, where you are going, checking your blind spots, making sure you are within the speed limit and probably a load of other things. You don't want to be worrying about knowing what gear to be in for the right engine speed or stalling the car all the time.

With experience, you'll get it. It doesn't even take much time, a few hours at the most and you'll have your car control down to a tee.

Do you really want to go through the hassle and embarrassment of being 35 and not knowing how to use the clutch of the 'classic' 1980s Porsche 911 that a friend has let you drive because you didn't want to spend a few extra hours when you were a kid?

I think its pretty much unanimous... Learn to drive a manual. They are really fun to drive. Find some twisty road and play with the gears and engine and if you get a light FWD car, learn about the joys of L/O oversteer :D

[Cloudane]

As a Brit, where 'stick shift' is normal and automatic is the rare exception (though not as rare as it used to be) I have owned and driven both.

When I had an automatic for a little while, and since having manual again, my conclusions are:

You definitely want manual in hilly areas (no it won't burn out the clutch haha). The indecisive auto gearbox was irritating in that situation, jumping back and forth between two gears, and I just prefer to decide when I want extra acceleration for myself - without relying on the kickdown, which was a bit more geared (heh) towards overtaking on a flat than boosting the sluggish car up the hill. It just felt very unnatural to me in that particular situation. Might not help that it had 3 gears seemingly, whilst I'm used to having 5. 3 is very coarse.

As LizKat put it (mine was a Corolla also):
I rented a Corolla once, an automatic, and went nuts listening to the thing forever hunting through various ranges of its whole repertoire of gears, trying to find the right one in the hilly, curvy back roads.
Exactly.

On the other hand, in stop-start city traffic, I loved having an auto gearbox. For one thing, there's usually so much going on that changing gears, even though it becomes sort of instinctive and subconscious, still strikes me as as unnecessary drain on brain resources that would be better spent making sure you're not hitting things.

But more noticeably, putting the clutch up and down (no it won't rapidly burn out even in stop-start traffic) gets very tiring and tedious. Worse when you're queueing up a hill and have to consider handbrake and biting point to make sure you don't roll back. Give me an auto gearbox any day in a city.

I live in the Lake District of England and have a 4 minute journey to work, the rest of the time I'm taking the car around all the hills and twists and turns getting to the base of mountains, so it's a manual for me.

[Rodimus Prime]

First off I will say I been driving a manual since I turn 16 ten years ago. My first car was a manual. The car it was replace with has a 6 speed manual in it.

While for the most part I like driving a manual there are times I honestly would rather drive an auto. I am debating about when I replace my car going auto. The reason for this is because I have to drive in traffic quite a bit and let me tell you in stop and go traffic manual gets old REALLY fast but for cruising I like them. I also like it because on 2 lanes road where I have to make a quick pass I can drop a gear with zero lag time.

I also if you do not like driving do not get a manual. I have a friend who hated driving ask me if a manual made driving better. I told him that he should go auto because other wise it is just one more thing and you will not enjoy it.

Oh and the other place manual suck is on dates. Some times you like to just hold your girls hand for a while but try that in a stick and nope got shift about every 10 seconds (joys of stop lights).

[Love]

Enterprise and Budget (not sure about Budget, but Ent. def.) allow drivers under 25 to rent, as a secondary driver. I think the fee is usually about $10

[MTI]

WHAT?? The best reason in the world for getting a stick is living in a hilly area! Saves your brakes big time, saves on gas... essential for getting up and down slippery hills in winter.

WHAT? Automatic transmissions have other forward gears than just "D." ;)

- Modern technology has advanced the "slushbox" to higher levels for sure, but there are still plenty of cars that can take advantage of a relatively modern manual gearbox, particularly vehicles that make the most useable power and torque when revved high, typically multi-valve DOHC engines.

- The best vehicle to learn to shift for yourself is a truck or a diesel. Gobs of low end torque make getting started in first gear a snap. Just like learning to ride a motorcycle on a low to the ground V-twin "thumper" versus a rev-happy sport bike, the low speed torque will develop your confidence faster.

- It's much easier to "bump start" a manual car that has a dead battery.

[yg17]

Enterprise and Budget (not sure about Budget, but Ent. def.) allow drivers under 25 to rent, as a secondary driver. I think the fee is usually about $10

I believe with Enterprise, if you're under 21 they won't let you rent, 21-25 they charge a fee. Doesn't matter as in the US they don't rent out manuals. With good reason, I'm sure they would be replacing the clutches on them every other week.

[morepower7]

my first car is an 89 mustang LX 5.0 with an automatic once i buy another car im getting a manual because it is a good skill to know

[LumbermanSVO]

my first car is an 89 mustang LX 5.0 with an automatic once i buy another car im getting a manual because it is a good skill to know

Just go to the junkyard, get yourself a T-5, the driveshaft and the pedal setup out of any Fox Mustang. You can probably do it for under $300 and a weekend under the car. Cheap and easy, then you'll have a proper trans :)

[doucy2]

It is absolutely worth it to learn how to drive a stick and you might even have some fun. I get so bored driving an automatic now after owning multiple 5 speeds. It is practical to know how to drive one even if you don't own one because you never know when you might be in a situation that you may need to drive a manual.
Benefits of driving a manual include: better gas milage, more control over your car, fun spirited driving, and it can be something fun to teach a woman ;)

My advice find a friend that has a beater and learn on the. Or just buy a cheap running one. I got my first one for $100. Best of luck.

[shaunymac]

The Jetta will definitely be more fun to drive than a Civic, but German cars are more expensive to fix than Japanese ones and with 100,000+ miles, something's eventually going to break, so keep that in mind.

This is an old wives tale. I don't really know where it started. If the jetta is calling you, then get it. Find a jetta forum, much like you have with macs, and you will be set. Next, you will find the hook up on parts and you will e able to buy/sell parts to others with the same car.

I speak from expierence. I have driven german cars for quite some time. My cars are reliable and no more expensive to keep up than domestic cars.

A car is a pretty big deal, at least to me. It requires maintenance. Get on a plan. Heck, make a spreadsheet and keep up with it. Read your owner's manual.

Which jetta is it? The 4,5,6 cylinder? Civics are all over the place.

Think different. :D

[designgeek]

Honda's are very easy to learn on.

They are, as with all of the Japanese car's I've driven. My BMW is not so easy as with all the German sticks I've driven with the exception of Volkswagen which are pretty easy. As our mechanic says "It's pretty much on or off with that one," (BMW) and he's absolutely right. It could practically be actuated with a toggle switch.;) My dad and one of my friends have Mazdas and they're dead simple.

[dukebound85]

Engine braking will NOT wear out the clutch unless you decide to slip it the whole way, and there is no reason for that.

The clutches in big trucks work just the same as the clutch in every other car out there, yet we get 400k+ out of them with a LOT of engine braking, in a LOT heavier vehicle, even with the jakes on.

True

However, if you clutch is on the way out, engine braking will accelerate the wear as it can't maintain that lock

I do find it hard to believe semi's get 400k out of a clutch though

[LumbermanSVO]

True

However, if you clutch is on the way out, engine braking will accelerate the wear as it can't maintain that lock

Your typical gas engine will not be able to produce nearly the engine baking torque as it will forward torque. If it is slipping while engine braking then it will have been slipping under acceleration for some time already and the clutch should have already been replaced anyway.



I do find it hard to believe semi's get 400k out of a clutch though


Most truck drivers don't use the clutch to shift between gears, just when starting/stopping. My uncle just had his engine rebuilt at 760k and had them replace the clutch and turbo while they were at it. His clutch brake(stops the clutch from spinning so you can put it in gear when at a stop) was completely worn but he still had some life on the rest of the clutch, not much, but still some and it wasn't slipping.

Everything on a truck is made to last a long, long time. The trucking companies expect the trucks to last for a few years without anything more than tires and fluids. When you are putting 120k+ a year on the truck the miles add up fast. Heck, my truck had brand new tires on it when I got it and the steers are being replaced today with 151k on them, the drives still have about half their life left.

[Cassie]

I love driving stick shift. It's definitely a lot of fun once you get the hang of it. (There may be a few hairy moments when you're first learning...but it's fun when you look back on those moments. :p) 100% worth it. :) My current car is an auto, but I'm hoping my next one is a stick, it's just less boring to drive. :D

[Signal-11]

Most truck drivers don't use the clutch to shift between gears, just when starting/stopping.

That's a little unfair - while the principles may be the same, utilization between a truck and a car isn't the same.

I do agree with you in general.

[LumbermanSVO]

That's a little unfair - while the principles may be the same, utilization between a truck and a car isn't the same.

I do agree with you in general.

Sure, but you can shift without the clutch in your car too, if you know what you are doing. :) I've done it in all but one of my cars with no problems.

[fireshot91]

So uh, with all this talk about braking, engine braking, clutches etc....

Anybody want to fill me in on how (and what) engine braking is?
All I know is it's super loud, and it puts the wear on the engine instead of the brakes.

Want to explain how to shift gears in a manual? I thought it was like release gas, press clutch, shift, release clutch, press gas.

[Rapmastac1]

Manual is certainly something to learn because you never know when you are going to need it. But getting a manual where I live is suicide because the traffic is so bad any time of the day. Having to constantly shift in and out over and over in stop and go sucks really badly.

A good alternative is to get a newer car that either has a manualmatic or a manual sport shift mode. The car I'm looking at now is an XG350L with a manual shift mode. After you put the car in drive, you push the stick over to the right and can manually shift the car to override the automatic's fuzzy logic. This is great for those hilly areas or when you are making quick turns, and for the bad weather - that is what traction control is for though...

http://www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2002/Hyundai/100070495/2002.hyundai.xg350.5383-T.jpg

As seen in the image above.

[dukebound85]

So uh, with all this talk about braking, engine braking, clutches etc....

Anybody want to fill me in on how (and what) engine braking is?
All I know is it's super loud, and it puts the wear on the engine instead of the brakes.

Want to explain how to shift gears in a manual? I thought it was like release gas, press clutch, shift, release clutch, press gas.

engine breaking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_braking)

basically its using your cars gearing/transmission to assist in breaking

say you are going down a hill at 40 mph at say 2.5k rpm. to engine break, youd shift down a gear or 2 and the rpm's will spike up to say 4k rpm. if you are not applying any throttle, the engine is going to effectively slow down the car

hope that kind of helps

semis use a special form of engine breaking known as jake breaking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_brake)

i love the sound of jake breaks though lol

[Rapmastac1]

So uh, with all this talk about braking, engine braking, clutches etc....

Anybody want to fill me in on how (and what) engine braking is?
All I know is it's super loud, and it puts the wear on the engine instead of the brakes.

Want to explain how to shift gears in a manual? I thought it was like release gas, press clutch, shift, release clutch, press gas.

Engine braking is actually using the car's transmission to stop the car. The low gear keeps the car from going fast because of it's gear ratio compared to the engine. So in some cases it actually slows the engine down as well. But it's the transmission that does all the work. That's why (in cars that let you) with an automatic some people put the car in first or second gear when going down a hill rather than keeping it in drive.

With a manual this process is much easier and you have more control. The car doesn't see the hill like you can so it doesn't shift accordingly. A good way automatics could fix this is by utilizing sensors for tilt in the transmission - but it wouldn't see the hills coming but it would prevent odd shifts in the middle of the hill where you lose most of your power.

Trucks engine brakes are much more powerful and some even have a Jake Brake - that is why engine brakes are restricted in some areas because they are so loud - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT4sHf1gYLI .

[jmann]

Jake Brake - that is why engine brakes are restricted in some areas because they are so loud.

Interesting. Are Jake Brakes use primarily while going down hills? And I have never used other gears in my automatic except while going down hill, are there any other reasons to switch gears?

[dukebound85]

Interesting. Are Jake Brakes use primarily while going down hills? And I have never used other gears in my automatic except while going down hill, are there any other reasons to switch gears?

if the brakes dont work, heres what you have to resort to for a semi

this is off i70, my old stomping grounds lol
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/content_images/photography_tour/mon_5.jpg

[Signal-11]

Sure, but you can shift without the clutch in your car too, if you know what you are doing. :) I've done it in all but one of my cars with no problems.

Yeah, I do this (or rather, used to do this) in rev match shifting when I did some rally. It's still not how I drive when I do drive a manual. Or maybe I'm just getting old. :)

Incidentally, I've never been a big LHD vs RHD superiority kind of guy but this is the one case for me where LHD is clearly superior to RHD. It's much easier to bang those gears into slot if you're pushing away than pulling in for some reason. I don't think its a matter of what I'm used to, either b/c I'm usually driving manuals in RHD and usually autos in LHD.

[LizKat]

if the brakes dont work, heres what you have to resort to for a semi

this is off i70, my old stomping grounds lol
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/content_images/photography_tour/mon_5.jpg

hah, yeah, there's a guy about 20 miles from here whose driveway used to be an ad hoc version of that on a hilly county road. He finally didn't bother fixing his shed the last time it got used, so now the final backstop is a bunch of spruce trees...

[fireshot91]

Okay, so all of the guides on how to shift in manuals say, when downshifting go one gear at a time. What happens if you go from 5-3 or 5-2 or something?

[dukebound85]

Okay, so all of the guides on how to shift in manuals say, when downshifting go one gear at a time. What happens if you go from 5-3 or 5-2 or something?

the more comfortable you get driving a stick, you will know what gears can hanlde what speeds


if you downshift to a gear but are going way too fast for the gear, you could really ef up your engine

i personally dont downshift one by one, i will go to neutral, use my brakes and then when i need throttle, engage the appropriate gear, unless i want to engine brake of course

[Rodimus Prime]

if the brakes dont work, heres what you have to resort to for a semi

this is off i70, my old stomping grounds lol
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/content_images/photography_tour/mon_5.jpg

I always wonder how often a trucker has to use one of those. I never seen one after it has been used most of the time they seem pretty over grown.

[LumbermanSVO]

The reason Jake brakes are used on diesels is because very few diesels have a throttle plate in the intake system, the throttle is controlled by when and how much fuel is injected into the cylinder. Almost every gas engine on the market has a throttle plate of some form. When you close that throttle plate(lift off the throttle pedal) it create a vacuum in the engine that is very hard to overcome. I believe BMW has some engines without throttle plates.

The reason Jake brakes are so loud is because they open the exhaust valve at the top of the compression stroke and release all the pressure. That high pressure suddenly escaping is the noise. The valve closes as the piston is going down on what would normally be the power stroke, instead of creating power is it creating a vacuum and that is what does the actual braking.

Some smaller diesels have an exhaust brake that is essentially a throttle plate in the exhaust, these are very quiet but not as effective as a Jake brake.

[LumbermanSVO]

I always wonder how often a trucker has to use one of those. I never seen one after it has been used most of the time they seem pretty over grown.

There is a saying in the industry, "You can go down a hill as many times as you want too slow, you can only go down once too fast." a drive should go their whole career without ever using one. they get used by the driver who either have a mechanical failure, don't know how to properly down down a steep grade and smoke their service(normal/air) brakes or simply are too stupid to believe they need to slow down. You can bet that if you use one your career will be over.

It was more common to have to use them before jake brakes came into common use. Back then you would have to just use your service brakes to go down steep grades. You use to have to adjust the brakes properly before going down the grade. Trucks use drum brakes and when overheated the drums expand and you can't apply enough pressure to slow the vehicle anymore, they will usually start smoking before this happens, smells like burt clutch. To keep them from overheating you use to have to go down a 6% grade at around 10-15mph when fully loaded. In my current truck I can go down a 6% grade at 45mph when fully loaded.

[yg17]

Yeah, I do this (or rather, used to do this) in rev match shifting when I did some rally. It's still not how I drive when I do drive a manual. Or maybe I'm just getting old. :)

Incidentally, I've never been a big LHD vs RHD superiority kind of guy but this is the one case for me where LHD is clearly superior to RHD. It's much easier to bang those gears into slot if you're pushing away than pulling in for some reason. I don't think its a matter of what I'm used to, either b/c I'm usually driving manuals in RHD and usually autos in LHD.


I think LHD is easier, because for the 1-2 shift for example, it's easier to pull the shifter towards you and pull it down into 2nd than it is to push it out away from you for 5-6, at least in my opinion. I've never driven a RHD car before so I don't have any experience to base that on, but for me, 1-2 seems to be a bit easier and quicker than 5-6.

[Signal-11]

I think LHD is easier, because for the 1-2 shift for example, it's easier to pull the shifter towards you and pull it down into 2nd than it is to push it out away from you for 5-6, at least in my opinion. I've never driven a RHD car before so I don't have any experience to base that on, but for me, 1-2 seems to be a bit easier and quicker than 5-6.

Yeah, I don't notice any difference in everyday driving, other than I don't like it when the turn indicator stalk is on the wrong side.

It's just for fast, timed shifts when it seems to matter. I used to think this was b/c I was just right handed but almost everyone I meet who has done a lot of performance driving in both RHD and LHD seem to prefer LHD, even the left handed guys.

That's just from personal experience. I don't know how the real expert drivers at near WRC level feel. I've watched videos of the pedal pumping these guys do and I have no idea what's going on.

[YS2003]

WHAT?? The best reason in the world for getting a stick is living in a hilly area! Saves your brakes big time, saves on gas... essential for getting up and down slippery hills in winter.
Many of the modern automatic transmissions downshift to 4th or 3rd depending on the grade or hold the gear if you don't press the gas in the downhill. So, they are as good as the manual transmissions in terms of engine braking.

I myself is also thinking about getting a sports car with a manual transmission. I will be in Tokyo by then; so, I need to be brave to have a manual transmission in the heavy traffic (years ago, I used to have a manual car in the New York City area and my left foot got sour through the daily torture of massive traffic jams). As long as I am riding a car with a manual for commuting or pleasure, I don't mind. But, if I need to drive it for work, I don't hesitate to pick the automatic car, hands down. There are so many things I need to deal with at work and the last thing I need to do is shift gears for the car I am driving.

[northy124]

Is it worth it to drive a stick?
Yes, if you can't drive manual you can't drive in my book.

[NoSmokingBandit]

Im rather impartial to manual/auto transmissions. Manual is fun for driving faster and more efficiently, but often i want to jump in my automatic and just relax and not think about shifting.
Its essential to know how to drive one, imo, though it seems that less and less consumer cars are made with a manual option.

[kellen]

Even if your car isn't a stick, learn how. It will help you in the future. I have way too many friends who don't know how to drive a stick and its infuriating.

It won't take that long to learn and is rather fun. If you end up getting a car with a stick vs. auto isn't a big deal, just knowing how is a good thing.

Also it's like riding a bike. You will always know how. Although most clutches are different on when they let out, you will have no problems adapting after a shift or two.

Learn how!

[LizKat]

Many of the modern automatic transmissions downshift to 4th or 3rd depending on the grade or hold the gear if you don't press the gas in the downhill. So, they are as good as the manual transmissions in terms of engine braking ~snip~.

But they don't have eyeballs or whatever they need for the slightly downgraded curve for which you just drop it one gear instead of braking a little before the curve. When I rented a Corolla two years ago and drove it for a month, putting about 2k miles on it, I really did go nuts listening to that thing hunting for gears or else impatiently braking when it would, of course, NOT brake before a curve I knew I should not be taking at 55 or 45 or whatever.

Now it's true that that was only the case for while I was getting out of my own home turf. Once I got a couple counties away, the terrain flattens some and I didn't mind the automatic. And, as many here have said, automatics are great if you drive in city traffic. I did appreciate that while I had the Corolla, as part of my use of it involved running around Ithaca in rush hours. Crawl hours.

I am not fond of hitting every light in Ithaca proper as I pass through it in my stick on the way to visit relatives outside of town, I freely admit that. The rented Corolla was a pleasure to drive in town when I had to be there for that month. Even though Ithaca is hilly, its grades seemed to make sense to the automatic, for the most part.

But back home in these hills, I prefer my manual shifter. I live in the part of the Catskills that has three watersheds, the headwaters of the Susquehanna, East and West branches of the Delaware.

There's routinely a thousand-foot difference between one town and the next but it will be like 1/4 up and 3/4 down, with the down part being 1/4 up and 3/4 down too... :confused: :D plus you can be driving north, east, south, west over hill and dale and around 90º corners to get to what some local describes as "just take this road straight down aways into town."

The automatics just go nuts in this terrain, and the driver will go nuts too unless maybe he plays the music on a 7. Me I like to listen to the engine so the iPod plays second fiddle. If and when I get too old to live in the sticks and still feel capable of driving a vehicle, I'll probably spring for an automatic. Or to be green :) then skip car, get bus pass!

[Signal-11]

Yes, if you can't drive manual you can't drive in my book.

How remarkably narrow minded.

[northy124]

How remarkably narrow minded.
Yhup, just how I like it :p

[Signal-11]

But they don't have eyeballs or whatever they need for the slightly downgraded curve for which you just drop it one gear instead of braking a little before the curve. When I rented a Corolla two years ago and drove it for a month, putting about 2k miles on it, I really did go nuts listening to that thing hunting for gears or else impatiently braking when it would, of course, NOT brake before a curve I knew I should not be taking at 55 or 45 or whatever.

Gasoline 4 cylinder, 4 speed automatic = fail any way you look at it.

An automatic tranny mated to a big honking engine with lots of torque and a wide powerband is like driving a manual diesel V8 - easy.

And besides, Ithaca's not a real city. Ithaca's more like what happens when all the hippies didn't want to go home after they finish college. :)

[Rodimus Prime]

Okay, so all of the guides on how to shift in manuals say, when downshifting go one gear at a time. What happens if you go from 5-3 or 5-2 or something?

You learn with time where the shift points are. The manual in the car provides fairly good ones to follow.

For me I shift points are
1-2nd 15 mph
3rd 30
4th 40
5th 50ish
6th cruising speed (60-70ish)

Those numbers are for when I am accelerating and it is very flexible on where the shift points are. It all with experience and mostly by feel. Hell I do not even look at Speedo or RPMs any more when I am picking up speed I just listen to the engine and know when to shift. Only time I really look at RPMs is when I know flooring the car for maximum pick up and going to shift near the red line and when I am near the speed limit. I read the RPMs to make sure I am in the right gear.

Down shifts is when I need the power but like others have said it is experience


Manual is certainly something to learn because you never know when you are going to need it. But getting a manual where I live is suicide because the traffic is so bad any time of the day. Having to constantly shift in and out over and over in stop and go sucks really badly.

A good alternative is to get a newer car that either has a manualmatic or a manual sport shift mode. The car I'm looking at now is an XG350L with a manual shift mode. After you put the car in drive, you push the stick over to the right and can manually shift the car to override the automatic's fuzzy logic. This is great for those hilly areas or when you are making quick turns, and for the bad weather - that is what traction control is for though...

http://www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2002/Hyundai/100070495/2002.hyundai.xg350.5383-T.jpg

As seen in the image above.

Those are wanna be manuals at best. The car auto will not give you a full override. It will not let you down shift to low and it will force a shift for you some points. There are times when it very nice in a manual that those autos will not let you do.

For example on slippery roads a manual is and always will be king. Those wanna be manuals do not let you over ride the cars computer and start in 2nd or 3rd gear because of how slick the road is.
Plus with out the clutch you can not control how much power is getting on the ground. More than once I have had to drive my car on icy roads having to start from a dead stop. 1st and 2nd gear were completely worthless because all the car would do is spin. I was having to nurse the car in 3rd and 4th gear to keep from breaking free and just spinning my wheels. The high gears let me put a lot less power on the ground. I also was doing a lot of clutch slipping to limit that power. Let me tell you it is a little unnerving when the one is able to spin there wheels from a dead stop in 4th gear.

[yg17]

Okay, so all of the guides on how to shift in manuals say, when downshifting go one gear at a time. What happens if you go from 5-3 or 5-2 or something?

Gotta be careful with those, depending on what speed you're going in 5th, downshifting into 2nd (or maybe 3rd even) will put you past redline. When I'm on the highway in 6th gear and traffic is up ahead, I will leave it in gear and begin to slow down, if I'm down to about 20 or 25 mph and traffic picks up again, I can safely go to 3rd (and second too but there's really no need). But if I'm going 70 in 6th and try to go into 3rd I will most likely redline and it could cause damage to the car, even if you only do it once or twice. You just have to get to know your car and if you're ever unsure, downshift to a higher gear. If it's still not a low enough gear to get moving, you can safely downshift to the next, eventually you'll just get to know what speed requires what gear and can shift directly to what you need.

FWIW, you don't need to downshift through each gear when coming to a stop. Like if you're in 5th and need to stop, you don't need to go down through each gear. Just leave it in 5th while braking, and once you get to about 1,000 RPMs or so (a bit before it would stall) clutch in and go to neutral. Also, if you are downshifting one gear, sometimes you can get away without doing it depending on speed, but if you're skipping a gear while downshifting, make sure you rev match otherwise you'll burn up your clutch and the car will jerk like hell.

[LizKat]

And besides, Ithaca's not a real city. Ithaca's more like what happens when all the hippies didn't want to go home after they finish college. :)

They got real cars, though, and real traffic snarls, even after they got done building a zillion one-way bridges down there in the bottom. I'd be driving an automatic there if I lived there, for sure. And paying on a big mortgage :D - where those hippies get that dough?! Lot of Volvos and Prius and so forth, besides the hefty house price tags.

[Dagless]

I don't get how folk say that manual cars are rubbish for inner city and traffic driving, yet people do that all the time here and don't have a problem with it.

Is it worth it? Yes. Before I could drive a manual I could drive an automatic, just felt like an overpriced toy :p.

[remmy]

How come the Auto is so popular in the US or compared not as popular in the UK or Europe? (I don't quite know the rest of Europe but where I have been its seems that a manual is most popular)

[SactoGuy18]

How come the Auto is so popular in the US or compared not as popular in the UK or Europe? (I don't quite know the rest of Europe but where I have been its seems that a manual is most popular)

Because the torque-converter type automatics work well with the larger displacement, relatively low-revving engines that American car manufacturers used for many, many years.

Today, with the emphasis on smaller engines for fuel economy reasons, automatics had to evolve to take better advantage of the engine torque peaks of smaller engines. That's why we're automatics with five to as many as eight forward gears and the increasing use of dual-clutch transmissions (DCTs).

A DCT is definitely well-suited for a high-revving engine such as the Honda K20Z3 used on the current Civic Si coupe/sedan (a very similar engine is used on the European-market Civic Type-R hatchback). Unlike regular automatics, when you use a DCT in manual-shifting mode you can easily keep the engine revs up and shift gears up and down far faster than a conventional manual.

[shaunymac]

How come the Auto is so popular in the US or compared not as popular in the UK or Europe? (I don't quite know the rest of Europe but where I have been its seems that a manual is most popular)

Have you seen most americans while driving, esp. those that drive autos? They are overweight, they are texting without watchinging the road, drinking supersized cokes with their big macs, ....

Next time you are out driving, seriously take a look around. It is a little frightening. I saw a woman here in Cinicinnati yesterday doing 60-65 texting on the interstate and not even looking at the road. :confused: What's crazier, she had both hands going. She wouldn't look up for 4-5 secs.:eek: Nuts

Most americans want everything done automatically, hince the poplularity of the auto. The others who like to drive manuals are probably more active and do things for themselves. Someone needs to do a study on this. I did read an interesting article in my "Roundel" mag a while back about the decline of manuals in the us.

Anyways, something to think about. That is my view.

EXTREME multitaskers drive autos. Heck, I don't even have cupholders in my car!:D

[Rodimus Prime]

How come the Auto is so popular in the US or compared not as popular in the UK or Europe? (I don't quite know the rest of Europe but where I have been its seems that a manual is most popular)

My guess is when Auto came out the US was using bigger engines that made up for the power that the Automatic stole of the engine to run it.

People got used to it. Right now Automatic transmission get equal to better gas mileage than there manual counter parts most of the time. The reason for this is because the Automatic uses less engine power run and now we are to the point that the cars computer handles the shifting so advantages a manual has is shot since next to no power rob.

The computer beats a human most of the time because it will shift based on best gas mileage for power being ask. The car shifts faster. Hell off the line in 0-60 times autos are getting close to betting the human counter part because yet again computer perfect shifting and faster than human shift times.

I see it taking over in Europe years too switch over to those advatages computer to the US already taking advantage of them.

[garybUK]

My guess is when Auto came out the US was using bigger engines that made up for the power that the Automatic stole of the engine to run it.

People got used to it. Right now Automatic transmission get equal to better gas mileage than there manual counter parts most of the time. The reason for this is because the Automatic uses less engine power run and now we are to the point that the cars computer handles the shifting so advantages a manual has is shot since next to no power rob.

The computer beats a human most of the time because it will shift based on best gas mileage for power being ask. The car shifts faster. Hell off the line in 0-60 times autos are getting close to betting the human counter part because yet again computer perfect shifting and faster than human shift times.

I see it taking over in Europe years too switch over to those advatages computer to the US already taking advantage of them.

That's all assuming the human changing the gear is doing it wrong, i'm sorry but no automatic can beat a manual driven PROPERLY to milage rates, anyhow have you seen the Millage rates that American cars get? Seen the ones you can get here? 60mpg+ those are ALL manual's.

Auto's will never take over Europe... at all..... simple reason: Auto's are still excluded mainly to the large 'bank manager' cars, BMW 5 series, Jaguar's etc. Even those that do have it, they are mainly Semi-Auto's like the VW/Audi DSG's etc.

If you take a test here on Automatic you are NOT allowed to drive a manual until you re-take your test, but a manual license can drive any.

I think it's a good idea to learn to drive in a Manual then you can take your pick whichever suits you and your environment. Personally i'm a Manual because that's what all the cars/people drive here.

[yg17]

Next time you are out driving, seriously take a look around. It is a little frightening. I saw a woman here in Cinicinnati yesterday doing 60-65 texting on the interstate and not even looking at the road. :confused: What's crazier, she had both hands going. She wouldn't look up for 4-5 secs.:eek: Nuts


Right...I saw some jerk the other day driving who had his cell phone in one hand and the other hand was putting something into his GPS. If we can't expect our drivers to have a free hand to steer, we certainly can't expect them to have a free hand to shift.

[Rodimus Prime]

That's all assuming the human changing the gear is doing it wrong, i'm sorry but no automatic can beat a manual driven PROPERLY to milage rates, anyhow have you seen the Millage rates that American cars get? Seen the ones you can get here? 60mpg+ those are ALL manual's.
.

Properly driven manual still only have a human control value on it. Means it can not shift perfectly or fast enough.

You are taking the 60+ mpg cars which have very small engines and quite frankly are very small.

Up the engine size a little and the advantages shifts back. I do not count the special case cars but the average car like the Honda Accord and Altima.

The EPA mpg I have seen between the manual and auto ON the same car is dropping to advantage shifting over to the Auto. Hell on some cars the city mileage is BETTER but that is because of the computer control.

It is only a matter of time before the Auto will be manuals. Humans have limitations.

Now my car is a manual and I prefer driving a manual but I do not do it for gas mileage reasons. The mpg argument I think is becoming more worthless every year

[Signal-11]

They got real cars, though, and real traffic snarls, even after they got done building a zillion one-way bridges down there in the bottom. I'd be driving an automatic there if I lived there, for sure. And paying on a big mortgage :D - where those hippies get that dough?! Lot of Volvos and Prius and so forth, besides the hefty house price tags.

Yeah, those one lane bridges are definitely weird. After a while, it's like, WTF is going on here? If they were wooden, covered and in Madison County I'd understand.

[benflick]

I just turned 16, and I'm getting my license in a few weeks. I learned to drive with a stick. My Mom's car (Ford Focus) is a 5 speed and so is my car (Saturn SL2).
Learning how is fairly easy, and, depending on the car, shouldn't take long. The only problem I have is starting out on a hill (Lots of hills in Cincinnati).

[richkent72]

Properly driven manual still only have a human control value on it. Means it can not shift perfectly or fast enough.


A fast shift is not necessarily a better shift. I use double de-clutching regularly when changing down. It's slower but far smoother, gentler on the transmission and (best of all) puts a big smile on your face when done right.

On the question of changing up/down more than one gear at a time, you can now fail a UK driving test if you don't do this when appropriate, e.g. rapid acceleration or braking.

Dipping the clutch while slowing (which several posters have recommended) is also a test fail. The only time you depress the clutch is to change gear or when almost stationery. Using the clutch when slowing means you've got no engine braking.

[shivermetimbers]

Yes, if you can't drive manual you can't drive in my book.

Agreed! I learned how to drive using a stick. You feel like your more in control of the car/truck. Its a lot more fun to drive a stick and is easier to negotiate snow covered/icy roads or rocky terrian.

[Rodimus Prime]

Dipping the clutch while slowing (which several posters have recommended) is also a test fail. The only time you depress the clutch is to change gear or when almost stationery. Using the clutch when slowing means you've got no engine braking.

The tester is an idiot. It should not matter if you are engine breaking or not. Also the brakes on a car are balance for not having to deal with engine adding additional strain on a pair of the wheels. All engine braking does slow down how fast the brake pads wear down.

For me when I am slowing down I do not even bother pushing down the clutch but instead just tap the shifter into neutral. I tend to do that when I a know I am going to have to shift any how. I quite often will go from 6th gear to neutral for the turn then put the car into 3rd.

[dukebound85]

The tester is an idiot. It should not matter if you are engine breaking or not. Also the brakes on a car are balance for not having to deal with engine adding additional strain on a pair of the wheels. All engine braking does slow down how fast the brake pads wear down.

For me when I am slowing down I do not even bother pushing down the clutch but instead just tap the shifter into neutral. I tend to do that when I a know I am going to have to shift any how. I quite often will go from 6th gear to neutral for the turn then put the car into 3rd.

Thats what I do as well

[LumbermanSVO]

Thats what I do as well

In a big truck that is considered "out of control" and you will fail your test. They are very expensive to re-take.

[Signal-11]

Agreed! I learned how to drive using a stick. You feel like your more in control of the car/truck. Its a lot more fun to drive a stick and is easier to negotiate snow covered/icy roads or rocky terrian.

What is this? It's like a lot of you have never heard of electronic stability/traction control. Manual might have been better in the days before every other car had this but for everyday driving in slick conditions, I'll take an automatic with modern traction control over a manual without any day of the week.

I'm sure some ice racing Finn who does snow rallies every other weekend might feel differently but performance driving doesn't count.

[Rodimus Prime]

What is this? It's like a lot of you have never heard of electronic stability/traction control. Manual might have been better in the days before every other car had this but for everyday driving in slick conditions, I'll take an automatic with modern traction control over a manual without any day of the week.

I'm sure some ice racing Finn who does snow rallies every other weekend might feel differently but performance driving doesn't count.

well those 2 things are great. They are not so effective from starting from a dead stop on ice roads. They more detect one wheel spinning a little 2 freely of the drive wheels but fail when the drive wheels are both spinning like that.

Ice snow. Manual will with the Traction control/Electronic stability will always win the day. With out those 2 the manual still wins on those conditions

[SactoGuy18]

One thing I've noticed nowadays that with many cars, the manual shifters have one big problem: very few companies make shifters that work smoothly and allow you to find the right gear properly. It seems only BMW, Honda and maybe Porsche and VW have a clue on a decent shifter. :rolleyes:

Small wonder why everybody is working on improving dual-clutch transmissions. At least on a DCT when you shift gears you don't have to fight vague and rubbery-feeling shifters that seem to be the norm on even most European cars.

[LizKat]

I would say if you live in a hilly area get an automatic ( you will burn out your clutch ) if you live in relatively flat area I say get a shift if your willing to learn it because you get more control over the vehicle. But if you don't want to be bothered with it again you can always get an automatic.

Yeh but again what's with the "burn out the clutch in hilly area" bit?

If you mean urban hilly like SF, and a novice at stick driving, well, maybe. Otherwise if you know how to drive the thing then hilly is great for stick.

And as you say, control with the stick is the main reason why I have one. Has saved me soooooooo many a time on this one hill with a half-mile 13% grade with a twist and then 16% for the last hundred yards... getting behind some idiot who loses nerve in snow on the last bit of that vicious upgrade and takes foot off gas... i can manage to gear down, get some traction, get out and pass them before I lose it too and we all end up stuck in the ditch or go over the cliffside (my side, so once I pass I am highly motivated to get by them and get back over).

LOL and then down at the cop substation at the bottom of the mountain, I do stop in there and tell them where to look for the car stuck in snow back on the topside. Cops always shake head, say something about hunters from the city travelling in November without snow tires or a clue...

Why do people take their foot off the gas while going uphill in snow when they start to lose it. God! Makes me nuts. Even happened with a bus one time, coming up through the lower Catskills. The driver must have been new to the route and when we hit some pretty well drifted snow coming up a grade into a town, he either missed a gear or hesitated to give it fuel, you could feel the bus slither.... slow.... finally reach that point of no momentum.. wow... then we slid backwards down the road about a quarter mile, then he backed into a plow turnaround or a pulloff anyhow of some sort, and went on down into the flats for another turn and another go at the drifts. I felt like I was in an airplane that had aborted one takeoff and not offered me a chance to deplane before the next attempt... there was not another soul on the road that night; probably the bus should not have departed the change at Kingston for the western Catskills but they can't always get the forecast right up in there.

That was when I vowed I would always have a runnable rat car in the driveway for times when my own better ride needed some shop time. I don't fancy winter driving so much, but I'll take mine over being a backseat driver in a bus now any time.

[SuperSnake2012]

Give it two weeks and you won't have a worry driving it, 2 months and it's 2nd nature, six months and you'll never want to drive an automatic again. :D

Even modern and advanced automatics don't seem to give you that great feeling of really having the machine attached to your hands and feet, like you have absolute precise control of how fast the engine is spinning and how much power you're putting to the road.

edit: Sticks are also great because you have an excuse to not lend your car to a majority of people. "Yo brah, can I borrow your wheels tonight?" "It's a stick shift" "Damn dude I'll ask Kevin for his car."
I endorse all of the above things this guy said. :cool: :D Plus the ladies seem to find it sexier when you're driving a car with stick. True story.

I live in New York City and I drive a standard. I'm a maniac right? Haha. Stay out of Manhattan and it's all good. I drive a 2003 Mini Cooper (non-S) and it has a great clutch. I'm not sure if BMW had a part in designing the transmission?

[InvalidUserID]

Sure, why not? It can't hurt to know how to drive a stick.

I don't know how many times friends have said "I'd love to drive your car" and then back-out when I throw them the keys and they jump in to find it's a stick.

[northy124]

I'm not sure if BMW had a part in designing the transmission?
I think they did as they owned it in 03 didn't they?