Apple Releases Mac OS X 10.5.8 [Archive] - Page 3

AppleMatt

Aug 7, 2009, 06:58 AM

I'm amazed that an INTEL Mac person...

Actually my main machine is a 12" PowerBook G4 (wonderful), I also have an Intel iMac but I'm rarely at home so it's relegated to iPlayer duty for the other half. Like you, I've used Macs for decades. Unlike you, I don't believe that doing something for a long time in any way makes me right - it simply means I've done something for a long time.

Amazing. And I've pretty much disputed and proven wrong all of the arguments for abandoning PowerPC support, so what's your point again?

No you haven't, you haven't at all. You come up with spurious numbers from the top of your head - a third this, 20% that, economics whatnot. All your 'arguments' are heavily biased, one-sided and short sighted. You've cited nothing to back them up except your loud voice.

None of this bothers me though, there's thousands of posts from others like this. What bothers me is that you constantly derail threads going on and on about the same stuff. You abuse the site formatting to gain attention (although to be fair you didn't in the past post) and are highly argumentative in tone - I can't count how many times your posts to others have started with 'WRONG' etc., one I remember you quoting someone and had the ordacity to put bold and centered 'You're still wrong'. What makes you the higher authority? What gives you the right to be so rude?

Just because I disagree with you?

Why not? That's your tactic...It's not a discussion with you, it's a tirade that won't end until everyone agrees with your viewpoint. You said yourself, you've "disputed all of the arguments". When people reply with logical, structured responses you ignore them or rattle on about the same stuff, never directly addressing their points. It's forum spam.

edit: Just read back, and someone has posted in reply to you "OK, got your point. Are we done now?". Exactly my point - you just crack on until people give up with you. You haven't convinced them, you've exasperated them. The problem with that style of 'discussion' though is that you're pushing people further into their respective camps, you're not drawing them into yours. So you're hurting the cause you're championing.

... wants me BANNED even though I've violated no site rules!...If a person who's owned an Apple computer since 1983 gets banned from this site just for disagreeing with the 66%-75% INTEL masses, than I don't want to be here anyway. It's not like I'm the only disgruntled PowerPC person.

Melodramatic. I said 'I'm amazed you haven't been banned', you've interpreted as me campaigning for you to be banned. Completely different. I don't want you banned, I want you to behave and discuss like an adult. If you can't, then the reason you could be banned isn't your viewpoints, it's the childish and bully-like way you put them forward, along with you destroying otherwise good conversations - this thread is about the 10.5.8 update - what are you talking about?

AppleMatt

richard.mac

Aug 7, 2009, 07:12 AM

just updated to 10.5.8 and i have a small problem as you can see in the pictures below… literally the first problem i have ever had from an OS X update!

anyone know how to fix this? ive tried clearing System Preferences' cache and yes i have installed the Archives preference pane before.

187082187083

pprior

Aug 7, 2009, 07:13 AM

MBP updated.

Speed 6.3 when connected to the power supply.
Speed 0.1 when on battery!

Have reset permissions, reinstalled in safe mode from the combi, zapped the p-ram ... no joy.

Lots of similar problems listed here:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2106689&start=0&tstart=0

:confused:

That thread is a scary read. I'm deferring updating my MBP until it's resolved!

EmperorDarius

Aug 7, 2009, 07:33 AM

That thread is a scary read. I'm deferring updating my MBP until it's resolved!

The fact is, it's difficult to predict wether or not an update can cause problems.

Some people just have no problems at all, like me (10.5-10.5.8 without any problems).
Some people need to repair permissions before and after in order not to have problems.
Some people seem to have problems anyway.

It's really unpredictable...and it's the same thing with every update.

My recommendation is to download the combo update, repair permissions, install and eventually repair permissions again.

MacHiavelli

Aug 7, 2009, 07:37 AM

The fact is, it's difficult to predict wether or not an update can cause problems.

Some people just have no problems at all, like me (10.5-10.5.8 without any problems).
Some people need to repair permissions before and after in order not to have problems.
Some people seem to have problems anyway.

It's really unpredictable...and it's the same thing with every update.

My recommendation is to download the combo update, repair permissions, install and eventually repair permissions again.

Have tried that without luck. No power cable = no wirelsss network worth speaking of.

MacHiavelli

Aug 7, 2009, 07:54 AM

If I start a speed test with the power plugged in and then pull the cable out half way through, the speed drops instantly from over 6.2 to 0.1/0.2.

:eek:

Droid13

Aug 7, 2009, 09:44 AM

Some people just have no problems at all, like me (10.5-10.5.8 without any problems).
Some people need to repair permissions before and after in order not to have problems.
Some people seem to have problems anyway.

It's really unpredictable...and it's the same thing with every update.

While it probably is a freak random occurrence (plus the fault did force me to do a full reinstall of everything, leaving me with a system that just seems better) I would be interested in knowing what exactly was modified by this update to 10.4.11 - I am not a software engineer and do not fully understand the note from Apple's website (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3757), having never heard of half the applications.

Is there a plain English explanation out there? I would like the detail, but I would also appreciate knowing what the heck bzip2 does, for example...

ASmallProblem

Aug 7, 2009, 09:46 AM

Installed the update on my iMac as well, another flawless update.

philMBP

Aug 7, 2009, 09:52 AM

Can anyone please verify this??
Since this update, colors in 1920x1080 mode are all washed out.
Everything looks grey'ish.

Can someone verify?

Edit: I use DVI to HDMI

HyperZboy

Aug 7, 2009, 10:06 AM

Maybe 20 to 33% of Mac user have at least one PPC Mac somewhere, but if you refer to those who use PPC Mac as primary machine there is no chance that 1/5 or 1/3 of install base is PPC. No way. 1/10 maybe. And if we take Power Mac it's <1%.

Well, you're definitely wrong there.
Someone posted current stats from the ADIUM website which determined how many Intel and PPC users were using the program, and they came up with 17% current PPC usage. Assuming that mainly refers to people's main Mac, that would put the PPC user base above 20% total at least since almost all older part-time use Macs would most likely be a PPC Mac. I for instance have an Intel Mac, but still use quite a few PPC Macs as well.

I'm not claiming Adium is the perfect source for the PPC %, but since it seems to be the only one out there and represents somewhat of a cross-section of Mac users, what else is there to go on? I personally think the PPC user base is somewhere slightly above 25%, but of course dropping.

I'm sure there are other programs out there like AIM or Apple's iChat that could probably provide more accurate numbers, but its unlikely we'll ever get numbers from sources like AOL, Yahoo, MSN, or Google, and definitely not from Apple.

Steve Jobs would sooner have you believe there are NO PPC users out there.

xUKHCx

Aug 7, 2009, 10:12 AM

Current Adium stats (http://adium.im/sparkle/#cputype) show that PPC ~11.04%.

Eidorian

Aug 7, 2009, 10:13 AM

Current Adium stats (http://adium.im/sparkle/#cputype) show that PPC ~11.04%.I get 11% from Omni stats (http://update.omnigroup.com/) as well.

HyperZboy

Aug 7, 2009, 10:25 AM

Actually my main machine is a 12" PowerBook G4 (wonderful), I also have an Intel iMac but I'm rarely at home so it's relegated to iPlayer duty for the other half. Like you, I've used Macs for decades. Unlike you, I don't believe that doing something for a long time in any way makes me right - it simply means I've done something for a long time.

No you haven't, you haven't at all. You come up with spurious numbers from the top of your head - a third this, 20% that, economics whatnot. All your 'arguments' are heavily biased, one-sided and short sighted. You've cited nothing to back them up except your loud voice.

None of this bothers me though, there's thousands of posts from others like this. What bothers me is that you constantly derail threads going on and on about the same stuff. You abuse the site formatting to gain attention (although to be fair you didn't in the past post) and are highly argumentative in tone - I can't count how many times your posts to others have started with 'WRONG' etc., one I remember you quoting someone and had the ordacity to put bold and centered 'You're still wrong'. What makes you the higher authority? What gives you the right to be so rude?

Why not? That's your tactic...It's not a discussion with you, it's a tirade that won't end until everyone agrees with your viewpoint. You said yourself, you've "disputed all of the arguments". When people reply with logical, structured responses you ignore them or rattle on about the same stuff, never directly addressing their points. It's forum spam.

edit: Just read back, and someone has posted in reply to you "OK, got your point. Are we done now?". Exactly my point - you just crack on until people give up with you. You haven't convinced them, you've exasperated them. The problem with that style of 'discussion' though is that you're pushing people further into their respective camps, you're not drawing them into yours. So you're hurting the cause you're championing.

Melodramatic. I said 'I'm amazed you haven't been banned', you've interpreted as me campaigning for you to be banned. Completely different. I don't want you banned, I want you to behave and discuss like an adult. If you can't, then the reason you could be banned isn't your viewpoints, it's the childish and bully-like way you put them forward, along with you destroying otherwise good conversations - this thread is about the 10.5.8 update - what are you talking about?

AppleMatt

Pointing out all of the incorrect statements posted here about Snow Leopard and why it can't or shouldn't be released for PowerPC is NOT being rude. It's just stating facts.

Pointing out all the reasons why 10.5.8 for PowerPC does not give PowerPC users the same BUG FIXES as Snow Leopard is NOT being rude. It's just stating facts.

Pointing out that Apple is abandoning a large part of its user base is NOT being rude. It's just stating a fact.

If disagreeing with you makes me rude, well then that's not MY problem.

There is no chance of convincing the Intel faithful that Snow Leopard should be released for PowerPC, so that was never my intention nor would it be possible and I'm sure 75% of the people reading my posts are probably annoyed. Big deal.

I think my points are quite clear and concise to the 25% PowerPC people out there and some of them have expressed their opinions too. Obviously we are clearly outnumbered, but that doesn't mean our voice shouldn't be heard.

Sometimes, a positive outcome happens from expressing your opinion on websites like this. Look what happened when Apple drastically dropped the price of the iPhone. Do you think Apple would have given us all $100 back if people like me weren't ranting endlessly on this website and others about being screwed over by Apple?

I think not.

HyperZboy

Aug 7, 2009, 10:26 AM

Current Adium stats (http://adium.im/sparkle/#cputype) show that PPC ~11.04%.

Someone posted 17% about a month or so ago.

I'll have to look for a link. I assume the # fluctuates daily?

And of course these are not really the best sources for the data (I don't even know what Omni is).
I think that's kind of obvious. If only Google or Yahoo or AOL released info, we'd have more realistic numbers. I don't know anyone who uses Omniweb (I had to click on the link to figure out what Omni meant. LOL)
The vast majority of Mac users don't even know what Adium is either and those who do would be the geeky tech types like us who tend to have more updated Intel equipment.
I think that's a no-brainer. I don't think any of those numbers are very accurate for obvious reasons, so few people use those programs and the people who do would be advanced users and tech types.

Keep in mind, I have an Intel Mac too, but I also have lots of PowerPC equipment still that I'd like to see supported for another year or so.

HLdan

Aug 7, 2009, 11:25 AM

Sometimes, a positive outcome happens from expressing your opinion on websites like this. Look what happened when Apple drastically dropped the price of the iPhone. Do you think Apple would have given us all $100 back if people like me weren't ranting endlessly on this website and others about being screwed over by Apple?

I think not.

Unfortunately that's a bad analogy. You can't compare a price drop to a re-write of code. It's easy for Apple to just drop the price out of public demand. To re-write code so PowerPC users can enjoy SL is just out of the question. Besides, it shouldn't happen anyway, it's ridiculous for Apple to now step backwards to make the PPC crowd happy. Customers have to move on with new technology, the companies shouldn't hold back because of your rants. It doesn't matter if it's technologically possible to make SL for PPC users or UB, it's just not gonna happen, period. You'll have to deal with it. :p

D4F

Aug 7, 2009, 11:29 AM

After this update on Airport I am really slow.
Good job apple
:rolleyes:

xUKHCx

Aug 7, 2009, 11:31 AM

Two separate sources put the PPC number at ~11% yet you claim the actual number is 25%.

Someone posted 17% about a month or so ago.

Actually 13% and 2 months ago (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=7611252#post7611252)

Yes the number is probably not 100% accurate however it is better than the large assumptions you make.

Omni group is a lot more than Omniweb and has been around for a long time making software for the mac.

The % of PPC computers in use is decreasing daily. I am sure Apple knows the data and percentages quite well as they know how many were sold initially and then the number of updates/hits to their servers etc. etc.

You can't simply ignore the facts based purely on your own feelings.

I'm not claiming Adium is the perfect source for the PPC %, but since it seems to be the only one out there and represents somewhat of a cross-section of Mac users, what else is there to go on? I personally think the PPC user base is somewhere slightly above 25%, but of course dropping.

And of course these are not really the best sources for the data (I don't even know what Omni is).
I think that's kind of obvious. If only Google or Yahoo or AOL released info, we'd have more realistic numbers. I don't know anyone who uses Omniweb (I had to click on the link to figure out what Omni meant. LOL)
The vast majority of Mac users don't even know what Adium is either and those who do would be the geeky tech types like us who tend to have more updated Intel equipment.
I think that's a no-brainer. I don't think any of those numbers are very accurate for obvious reasons, so few people use those programs and the people who do would be advanced users and tech types.

Which is it? When the made up number is high it supports your arguements but when presented with the true number which disagrees with you it is not a good cross section.

Keep in mind, I have an Intel Mac too, but I also have lots of PowerPC equipment still that I'd like to see supported for another year or so.

I'm not arguing for apple to drop support for PPC users, I am merely stating the facts and it is after all these facts that apple use in their decision making. It would be great if apple continued updates for the PPC platform but they decided in order to progress forward to stop major OS updates for that platform. Apple still gives out security updates for Tiger which was replaced by Leopard some 1 3/4 years ago. Leopard will likely get the same treatment and will possibly get 1 or 2 more 10.5.x updates.

Bluznis

Aug 7, 2009, 11:50 AM

Well, you're definitely wrong there.
Someone posted current stats from the ADIUM website which determined how many Intel and PPC users were using the program, and they came up with 17% current PPC usage. Assuming that mainly refers to people's main Mac, that would put the PPC user base above 20% total at least since almost all older part-time use Macs would most likely be a PPC Mac. I for instance have an Intel Mac, but still use quite a few PPC Macs as well.

I'm not claiming Adium is the perfect source for the PPC %, but since it seems to be the only one out there and represents somewhat of a cross-section of Mac users, what else is there to go on? I personally think the PPC user base is somewhere slightly above 25%, but of course dropping.

I'm sure there are other programs out there like AIM or Apple's iChat that could probably provide more accurate numbers, but its unlikely we'll ever get numbers from sources like AOL, Yahoo, MSN, or Google, and definitely not from Apple.

Steve Jobs would sooner have you believe there are NO PPC users out there.

I'm right ;)

Frosties

Aug 7, 2009, 11:55 AM

The statement that 10.6 is a bug fix is wrong. It's a substantial rewrite of the code.

AppleMatt

Aug 7, 2009, 12:48 PM

If disagreeing with you makes me rude, well then that's not MY problem.

Brilliant! Well done again in not at all addressing the points raised in a reply to you, and instead taking the wrong end of the stick and running as fast as you can.

I said you were rude for quoting someone and then, in bold and centered formatting, saying 'You're wrong'. That's rude, and it is your problem. I made it clear I don't really care about your point (because of the way you’re berating others), I care about how your obnoxiousness is destroying conversations I'm interested in; even after I pointed this out you started yet another post with "Well you’re definitely wrong there."

Take this thread for example; people chatting about their experience with the 10.5.8 update, links to problems they've encountered etc. But it's littered with crap because you are unhappy with Apple. Hundreds of people want to talk about 10.5.8, but they're forced into reading your personal vendetta about an unconnected topic. I don't care if you're unhappy with them, go and start a thread and whine all you want about it. Then it can be you you you all the way, and you'll be happy because everyone will agree with you (which, ultimately, is what you want - people to suddenly become enlightened).

People come here in their free time, to relax and chat about their hobbies. If people berate them, keep going on and on, are rude and oppositional then they'll find something better to do with their free time. That directly affects me, because they might otherwise have said something interesting or useful to me. So not only do I have to read your rubbish, I lose out by not reading their quality posts.

You brought up this 'battle' thing again, and being outnumbered. You feel like that not because of the points you're making, it's the way you're doing it. Loads of people aren't happy with SL being Intel only - I'd like my PowerBook to support it - they're not getting multitudes of replies because they're expressing their opinions intelligently, reasonably and most importantly of all they are prepared to listen to the opposing argument.

At least you admitted you're endlessly ranting. Now if only Steve Jobs would listen to an endless ranter...:rolleyes:

AppleMatt

gavin83209

Aug 7, 2009, 02:34 PM

I think we've all heard the points from both sides more than enough times. Could you please stop arguing? The PPC users want one more major OS release. I do too, but we only need to hear it once. The Intel users want Apple to move on. Again, we don't need to hear it more than once. There is no way to win this argument. The subject is 10.5.8, not Snow Leopard.

As for Airport: I actually went from 3320 kbps to 3350 kbps downstream on batteries. For the most part, 10.5.8 seems to have helped out my network, if only a little bit.

Yavanna

Aug 7, 2009, 02:57 PM

Just FYI, since the update my CPU usage is down significantly, and my MacBook Air is running cooler—a very good thing, as the constant fan noise was very annoying. I've experienced no problems (bar Mail quitting once for no known reason— it was open but I wasn't using it) and Apps seem to open quicker. All in all, I'd have to say an excellent update. It seems to have fixed some far from minor problems.

CQd44

Aug 7, 2009, 03:05 PM

I think it's almost comical that this update didn't do anything bad to my hackintosh besides things that I knew would happen. And yet legit users are having lots of weird problems :X

Its just funny to me.

Wotan31

Aug 7, 2009, 03:21 PM

I think there's a lot of disgruntled people out there who paid $129 and feel like they got cheated by Apple.
Why? You paid for Leopard... and you got Leopard. You also got eight major updates to the Leopard OS. Nothing else was expressed or implied at the time you made that purchase.

Gasu E.

Aug 7, 2009, 03:24 PM

10.5.8 is NOT the final BUG FIX for Leopard.

Why do you assume there will not be a 10.5.9 after Snow Leopard comes out? Apple has done such things before. I expect they will do it again this time, especially given the large number of PPCs out there. No new features, but bug fixes and such. I can think of several compelling reasons for Apple to do this, not the least of which is to ensure that PPC users can stay current with iTunes, which serves a larger Apple strategic goal of driving the media distribution model.

BTW, I am in the same "bought a late model G5 PowerMac" boat as you, and I'm disappointed at the shortened useful life due to the Intel switch; but I don't feel ripped off by Leopard one bit.

<And for those who are going to mouth the "the computer is as good as it was the day you bought it mantra"-- I bought a general purpose computer, not a washing machine; and one of the features of a computer is that you can run new programs as they come out. Increasingly, new programs of interest are Intel-only. So if you tell me I should be happy running only software that is 3 years old or more, you apparently don't understand the value proposition of a general purpose computer. So there! :P>

Wotan31

Aug 7, 2009, 03:27 PM

Excellent, it's fixed the Accelerated 3D settings that VMware had with the ATI graphics cards.
Sweet!! This alone makes the update worth it for me.

HyperZboy

Aug 7, 2009, 04:02 PM

Two separate sources put the PPC number at ~11% yet you claim the actual number is 25%.

Actually 13% and 2 months ago (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=7611252#post7611252)

Yes the number is probably not 100% accurate however it is better than the large assumptions you make.

Omni group is a lot more than Omniweb and has been around for a long time making software for the mac.

The % of PPC computers in use is decreasing daily. I am sure Apple knows the data and percentages quite well as they know how many were sold initially and then the number of updates/hits to their servers etc. etc.

You can't simply ignore the facts based purely on your own feelings.

Which is it? When the made up number is high it supports your arguements but when presented with the true number which disagrees with you it is not a good cross section.

I'm not arguing for apple to drop support for PPC users, I am merely stating the facts and it is after all these facts that apple use in their decision making. It would be great if apple continued updates for the PPC platform but they decided in order to progress forward to stop major OS updates for that platform. Apple still gives out security updates for Tiger which was replaced by Leopard some 1 3/4 years ago. Leopard will likely get the same treatment and will possibly get 1 or 2 more 10.5.x updates.

When the 17% number was posted months ago, I made the same argument, that sources like ADIUM are not valid sources for this info because only TECH people and power users use OMNI or ADIUM.

The average Mac user does not even know what these 2 words mean!

So, the best I can do is extrapolate from the only known numbers that people are posting here.

No matter what the OMNI or ADIUM % is, the number of PowerPC users will most likely be higher than that % simply because people with computers 3+ years old are most likely NOT tech geeks or power users who post on this website or people who even know what OMNI or ADIUM are.
I keep stating that as being obvious, but obviously the tech people here don't get it.

If someone could provide a more accurate %, I'd be glad to admit I was wrong.
But, otherwise, I still think the % is in the 25% or higher range but admittedly dropping fast.

The fact is, people keep coming up with useless numbers that don't accurately represent the Mac community. Nobody uses Omniweb or Adium.
I've never even gone to Omni's website until today and I read this site every day! LOL

If Snow Leopard was a REAL upgrade and not a $29 BUG FIX for Leopard, I wouldn't be so adament about my opinion on this. People keep saying Apple doesn't have the money or resources to support PowerPC anymore. That's a joke, Apple is filthy rich and has tons of money and resources.
And if they'd spent that much money investing in Snow Leopard, guess what?

It would be $129, NOT $29. None of these cost effectiveness arguments hold water.

I think I'm right. All the tech people quoting their numbers think they are valid while I don't.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.

SomeSwede

Aug 7, 2009, 04:05 PM

10.5.8 is running perfectly here. I am satisfied.

nsbio

Aug 7, 2009, 04:44 PM

I had to do a hard restart while updating my PB G4. It was stuck half-way on executing the installer script. The computer itself was not frozen (it capslock light worked and I could move the update window around with the mouse) - it was just idling. After the hard restart, it rebooted and the system became updated to 10.5.8.

So far no problems but this is freaky. I do not want to do hard restarts during updates.

macintoshtoffy

Aug 7, 2009, 05:53 PM

No.

Well, why haven't you repaired permissions and rebooted? do you want your problem solved or is complaining a lot more fun?

Ttownbeast

Aug 7, 2009, 07:07 PM

My g4 seems to be running as smoothly as normal with it--I was surprised that they'd still be putting any effort into the updates with snow leopard looming in the future for you intel people.

Ttownbeast

Aug 7, 2009, 07:11 PM

Well, why haven't you repaired permissions and rebooted? do you want your problem solved or is complaining a lot more fun?

concerning your sig.....that eyetv is just so sweet isn't it :D

Bluznis

Aug 7, 2009, 07:19 PM

Well, why haven't you repaired permissions and rebooted? do you want your problem solved or is complaining a lot more fun?

I said that disabling wifi encryption solved all wifi problems I had after I upgraded to 10.5.8. I didn't repair permissions, because the problem is not in the permissions. Anyway I repaired them now to be 100% sure, but also enabled encryption and started having wifi problems ;). Disabling wifi encryption again solved low speed andweak signal problems. Clear?

holden57

Aug 7, 2009, 07:42 PM

Installed 10.5.8, everything seems to be working, it feels a little slower to me, especially on start-up, but that might just be me trying to think it's slower when it's really the same. I wonder if some of my third-party apps could be affecting it.

YahonMaizosz

Aug 7, 2009, 09:55 PM

Does this update actually fixed the issue that Apple Dual Link DVI to Mini Displayport Adapter had been having??

MagnusVonMagnum

Aug 7, 2009, 11:10 PM

Never? I doubt that all of those 20-33% of PPC Mac users will eventually get an Intel Mac but my guess is many/most of them will. And when they do they can get Snow Leopard.

By the way, how long does Apple have to support PPC for it to be "OK"? Just wondering - 5 years, 10 years, 15 years???

I've got an Intel MBP. WTF does that have to do with anything? I've ALSO got a PowerMac running my whole house audio system. Apple advertised Snow Leopard as a MINOR update. The problem there is that the most "major" thing it does is give 1 out of every 3 Macs the boot (which isn't exactly great for Apple's already tiny market share when it comes to attracting software developers who now have less people to market to; Apple ASSUMES those people will buy new Macs from them. That is not necessarily true at all).

Your last question there sounds dumb because in fact, we are just now approaching 5 years from the last G5 machines, some of which are STILL FASTER than some of the Intels out there. So no, Apple cannot even manage 5 years of support. Since Snow Leopard is a minor update, it should have been the last PPC update. That would have also been consistent with machine support for ALL PRIOR OS X updates. Here we see Apple breaking with that consistency for one reason only and that is to try and force PPC users to buy a new computer. That's half the reason for the update, in fact, maybe more. Apple has no interest in competing with comparable hardware from the PC world (despite being identical Chinese crap) and that means HIGH PRICES and so the ONLY WAY Apple can get people to upgrade is to try and FORCE them.

Spare me the Leopard will still work fine for many years line too. Anyone with any knowledge what-so-ever about Mac software development knows that most packages stop supporting prior versions of the operating system in VERY short order (usually than a year, two at most except for the minority of software). How much more so will that be the case HERE when most Universal binaries are being made for "free" with Apple's development platform. That platform will no longer support PPC builds for Snow Leopard so in order to use the newer features (like OpenCL) of Snow Leopard, developers will simply not build Universal binaries because it would be a lot of extra work for them to do so and they are probably banking (just like Apple) that PPC users will upgrade soon anyway so tough crap. Thus, this is not a valid line of reasoning.

The worst part of the anti-PPC arguments on here is that these are mostly coming from the same rabid fans that were Pro-PPC when it suited them (i.e. when Apple was all PPC, Intel was so much total garbage; now that it's the default, it's suddenly PPC that is so much garbage to be thrown away). In other words, most of you are such total hypocrites it's astounding you have the nerve to type ANYTHING on here at all about PPC.

I can afford to go buy a new computer to replace the PowerMac when needed, but I guarantee with Apple's uncompetitive shenanigans that when I do go to buy the machine, it will not be made by Apple. To heck with Apple and their anti-competitive behavior, greed knows no bounds attitude and downright Mafia app-store tactics to both take profits off the top of every app and deny any other avenues of software sales for two of their platforms. Only fanatics can excuse Apple's behaviors because only fanatics are blind enough to overlook behavior that makes Microsoft look fair and even by comparison. When Apple starts to compete on its own merits and have pricing structures that are fair and reasonable for the hardware they are selling, I'll consider buying another computer from them. Otherwise, hello Hackintosh and maybe even hello Windows7 (if it's good enough unlike the crap that is Vista).

Chase R

Aug 7, 2009, 11:49 PM

Instead of taking 15 seconds to connect to my WiFi... it now does it instantaneously. Thanks Apple.

fehhkk

Aug 8, 2009, 12:03 AM

Seems like the bluetooth disconnection issues are fixed now. Thanks Apple!

Enigmah

Aug 8, 2009, 12:54 AM

Instead of taking 15 seconds to connect to my WiFi... it now does it instantaneously. Thanks Apple.

Oh Yeah Sweet......

My macbook pro connects to wifi quicker aswell untill i unplug it from the mains !!!!

Why the hell wont it connect to a wifi network unless its plugged in, brilliant update apple ! PURE CLASS !!!!

MetalMac

Aug 8, 2009, 01:45 AM

I'm having issues when sending the mac to sleep, it just restarts the screen and the optical drive(?). Then in a random number of tries, I get it to sleep.

bed

Aug 8, 2009, 02:10 AM

I can now confirm that 10.5.8 has fixed the two issues I've had with 10.5.7 - namely bluetooth mouse connectivity issues on my MBP and tv HDMI resolution missing on my mac mini. Yay. :cool:

Eric S.

Aug 8, 2009, 09:34 AM

I came late to the mac party - been a user for only 3 years and so was always on intel mac. I'm just wondering however - it seems to me that the number of PPC mac users at this point must be pretty small. If I had to guess, I'd guess maybe 10% of installed base. Anyone have a more specific number? just curious.

I don't have a more specific number but I wonder how you came up with 10%. I would guess there's probably a lot of us who use both.

To me, I think ongoing support for an obsolete system is too much to ask past this point. Intel code should be optimized and resources martialed to that end, PPC is over, that's a simple fact.

This debate has raged for over a year now, since the first Snow Leopard developer release was seen to be Intel-only. IMO there are legitimate points to be made on both sides, but it really doesn't matter because Apple has made the decision so we all just have to move on from here.

Back on topic (it's amazing how many threads turn into the PPC/Intel war), I updated both of my Macbooks to 10.5.8 and the only weirdness I saw was that all Finder menu options remained greyed-out until I opened a Finder window, and then the menus returned to normal.

dyn

Aug 8, 2009, 11:05 AM

Hmmm...
x86 16-bit - 16-bit DOS and Windows 3.x
x86 32-bit - 32-bit Win9x, WinNT, Win2K, WinXP, Vista, Win7, Server (Win7 server drops x86 support)
x64 64-bit - WinXP, Vista, Win7, Server
IA64 - WinXP, Server
PowerPC - WinNT up to 4.0
Alpha - WinNT up to 4.0
MIPS - WinNT up to 4.0
SPARC - development, never released
Clipper - development, never released
i860 - development, never released

When Win7 ships this fall, supported systems will be
x86 - Windows 7 (last release to support 32-bit x86)
x64 - Windows 7, Windows Server 2008 R2 (Win7 Server)
IA64 - Windows Server 2008 R2

There is one quite big mistake, there is no x64, it simply does not exist!
However, there is x86 which comes in a couple of flavours like 16 bit, 32 bit and 64 bit. A lot of people still make the mistake to think that the 64 bit version of x86 is a different architecture while it's not (it still has the basic commands and other stuff a 386 for example has, it's still a 32 bit cpu but only with 64 bit extensions; if you dive even further in it's architecture one can see it's part 8 bit, part 16 bit, part 32 bit and part 64 bit ;)). Officially the 64 bit version of x86 is called x86-64. So the first 2 points should be just 1.
Also Windows XP does not work on IA-64 since you seem to mean Itanium, Itanium is a server platform only and only Windows Server variants work on that platform.

There is a difference when you make a distinction between business use and consumer use. MacOS X is mostly used by consumers. When comparing Windows and MacOS X in that regard Apple has switched architectures while Microsoft stayed on x86. It's a different story when you start looking at business users and server systems in particular (which you can see in the list you provided). I think the person you replied to was just thinking of the consumer.

That's a good point. And don't forget some people are arguing over INTRODUCTION DATES while I'm referring to DISCONTINUATION DATES.

It's a big distinction. If you're selling something like Leopard or a G5, you're expected to support it for a reasonable length of time.

The last G5 was around 3 years ago to this day.

Leopard was sold to many PowerPC users just over a year ago without them knowing it was going to be a dead end $129 purchase.

That's just not right.
The last G5 was the Powermac which was discontinued in august 2006. If you have AppleCare that would mean the support for this particular machine will end august 2009 which is this month and 1 month before Snow Leopard will be released. That's why PowerPC machines are not supported in Snow Leopard and why users can not see they didn't know about the ending support (something called "responsibility" comes to mind...).

Other then that there are several other things you need to consider on both the technical as well as the economical part why it does not make any sense to have Snow Leopard support PowerPC.

First the technical part:
The PowerPC Macs mostly have G4 or earlier PowerPC cpu's in them which are 32 bit single core cpu's. Those machines also have only 1 cpu in them. The Powermacs and the iMac are the only machines with the G5 which was a 64 bit cpu but still with only 1 core. The iMac only had 1 cpu in it but the Powermac had either 1 or 2 of those G5 cpu's in it.
On of the improvements in Snow Leopard has to do with the multithreading/multitasking part of applications and making better use of multicore/multicpu systems, another one has to do with making the system 64 bit with the ability to run 32 bit on top of it (Leopard is the other way around). Therefor it is useless for more then 90% of the PowerPC machines. It's only useable on the Powermacs with 2 G5 cpu's (multicpu and 64 bit).

The other improvement in Snow Leopard has to do with OpenCL. There are not many graphics cards from ATI and Nvidia that are compatible with OpenCL. That's why a some Intel Macs will not be able to use OpenCL and thus take full use of the improvements in Snow Leopard. These machines involve all of the machines with Intel graphics and the unsupported ATI and Nvidia graphics cards (you need to thank ATI & Nvidia for not supporting those!). This won't be causing a lot of problems since not many will be needing the extra power you can get with OpenCL. It's most useful in some specific applications such as rendering software. People running such software most likely use a Mac Pro and those machines are able to support OpenCl with their graphics card (either because they have a graphics card that supports it or because they are able to upgrade to one that can). Not many will have the need for OpenCL (though it's really nice OS X supports it!).

All of the other improvements are very minor and have to do with cleaning up the code and making things more consistent. The last part can be seen visually and can be solved in Leopard as well through the use of skins (there are apps for that). It's not something that is necessary, it won't make the difference as in "the machine works", "the machine doesn't work". They are just nitpicking details they fixed and it's not a major problem if you don't have those features since Leopard works just fine.

So technically there is almost no reason to upgrade to Snow Leopard for anyone, especially PowerPC users have no benefit when upgrading to Snow Leopard. The same reason why a lot of people still stay with their PowerPC machines in the first place ;) For those people it's ridicilous in the first place to complain they can't upgrade to Snow Leopard. They don't need to, they don't have to because what they have will work just fine, it won't stop working when Snow Leopard is out on the market (they don't use DRM on OS X in that regard).

The economical part:
Apple made the switch to Intel only starting somewhere in june 2006. A lot of people where waiting and wanting Apple to do so. Since the switch to Intel a lot of people switcht to a Mac because it meant that they were able to run all of their x86 stuff AND MacOS X. Apple gained a lot of new users and their sales are still going strong (even better then in the PowerPC age I think).
The other part is that most of the PowerPC machines still in use are either being used by enthusiasts (people who don't mind running the OS it came with) or professionals. In case of the professionals computer systems won't last longer then 3 years because after that period those machines become more expensive. In those 3 years things also have evolved. In case of Apple it has evolved a lot in computing power since the switch to Intel (a Mac mini from 2007/2008 is able to outrun a Powermac G5 with SMP). Those people need the computing power so it's very likely that they've already upgraded to the Mac Pro at some time.
Then we have the software problem. Most developers have turned to Intel only since most of their users or even all of their users use Intel Macs. The amount of new version still having PowerPC support is still dropping. This makes the PowerPC Macs less attractive to use nowadays. Doesn't mean you can't use them anymore or that they are useless, they still work with all the software people already had, just not with any recent version.

Add all this up with the fact that the AppleCare support of the latest PowerPC machines will end this month (august 2009) before the release of Snow Leopard and you'll see that from a economical point of view there is no reason why Apple would support PowerPC.

All in all it's sad to see the support for PowerPC Macs go as they are fine machines to use even if they're old. But on both the technical and economical part there aren't any reasons why they should still support PowerPC and why you as a user would want Snow Leopard. It's a small upgrade and that's why it costs 29$ instead of the regular 129$.

And at the end of this lengthy post we come to the ontopic part: 10.5.8 works nicely on my 3 Macs. I can't really see much improvement regarding bluetooth, it still takes some time for my bluetooth keyboard to start working, the wireless mighty mouse is instant though. Same goes for the AFP fixes (smb simply works as it should, AFP keeps complaining about not having the proper rights).
I'm also curious about why system profiler reports the hardware UUID, bit odd.

HyperZboy

Aug 8, 2009, 11:24 AM

I've got an Intel MBP. WTF does that have to do with anything? I've ALSO got a PowerMac running my whole house audio system. Apple advertised Snow Leopard as a MINOR update. The problem there is that the most "major" thing it does is give 1 out of every 3 Macs the boot (which isn't exactly great for Apple's already tiny market share when it comes to attracting software developers who now have less people to market to; Apple ASSUMES those people will buy new Macs from them. That is not necessarily true at all).

Your last question there sounds dumb because in fact, we are just now approaching 5 years from the last G5 machines, some of which are STILL FASTER than some of the Intels out there. So no, Apple cannot even manage 5 years of support. Since Snow Leopard is a minor update, it should have been the last PPC update. That would have also been consistent with machine support for ALL PRIOR OS X updates. Here we see Apple breaking with that consistency for one reason only and that is to try and force PPC users to buy a new computer. That's half the reason for the update, in fact, maybe more. Apple has no interest in competing with comparable hardware from the PC world (despite being identical Chinese crap) and that means HIGH PRICES and so the ONLY WAY Apple can get people to upgrade is to try and FORCE them.

Spare me the Leopard will still work fine for many years line too. Anyone with any knowledge what-so-ever about Mac software development knows that most packages stop supporting prior versions of the operating system in VERY short order (usually than a year, two at most except for the minority of software). How much more so will that be the case HERE when most Universal binaries are being made for "free" with Apple's development platform. That platform will no longer support PPC builds for Snow Leopard so in order to use the newer features (like OpenCL) of Snow Leopard, developers will simply not build Universal binaries because it would be a lot of extra work for them to do so and they are probably banking (just like Apple) that PPC users will upgrade soon anyway so tough crap. Thus, this is not a valid line of reasoning.

The worst part of the anti-PPC arguments on here is that these are mostly coming from the same rabid fans that were Pro-PPC when it suited them (i.e. when Apple was all PPC, Intel was so much total garbage; now that it's the default, it's suddenly PPC that is so much garbage to be thrown away). In other words, most of you are such total hypocrites it's astounding you have the nerve to type ANYTHING on here at all about PPC.

I can afford to go buy a new computer to replace the PowerMac when needed, but I guarantee with Apple's uncompetitive shenanigans that when I do go to buy the machine, it will not be made by Apple. To heck with Apple and their anti-competitive behavior, greed knows no bounds attitude and downright Mafia app-store tactics to both take profits off the top of every app and deny any other avenues of software sales for two of their platforms. Only fanatics can excuse Apple's behaviors because only fanatics are blind enough to overlook behavior that makes Microsoft look fair and even by comparison. When Apple starts to compete on its own merits and have pricing structures that are fair and reasonable for the hardware they are selling, I'll consider buying another computer from them. Otherwise, hello Hackintosh and maybe even hello Windows7 (if it's good enough unlike the crap that is Vista).

I agree with some of your points except that I'll not switch to Windows no matter how much I gripe here.
But that doesn't mean I'll run out and buy a new Mac just because Apple is trying to force me to.
Most of my PowerPC Macs are quite capable machines and will be probably for a couple more years at least.
I'll just put off buying new Macs.

And btw, the last G5 was discontinued just about 3 years ago and Apple continued to sell PowerPC machines even after that to schools especially, so Snow Leopard does break with Apple's tradition of support going back quite a long time and as such represents a break in the trust that people who paid $129 for Leopard had in Apple and the people who bought those G5s. When Leopard was announced, it's not like Apple made an announcement or Steve Jobs put PowerPC in a coffin like he did with MacOS 9. And even after MacOS 9 was put in a coffin, you could for many many years still run MacOS 9 programs through 10.2, 10.3, and 10.4!
Snow Leopard totally breaks Apple's tradition of support and trust with its customers.

If Snow Leopard were a major operating system update that was substantially different than Leopard, PowerPC users would not be griping as much. But it's not. It's basically an optimized version of Leopard for Intel Macs with major BUG FIXES for just $29. Only not everyone who paid $129 is allowed to have access to these major bug fixes and optimizations. That's basically Apple ditching some of its most loyal and long-time customers who stuck with Apple through thick and thin, even when the company was in trouble.
Now Apple is one of the richest companies left during this bad economy with tons of resources and who are they screwing over?
Their most loyal customers, PowerPC users!

By the way, just to update people on 10.5.8... NO, it does NOT fix my Never Ending Disk Permissions problems that I do believe affect stability in Leopard (but I'll not post my Disk Utility log again, don't worry. LOL). Maybe this doesn't happen on Intel Macs, I don't know. But I know Disk Permissions are still never fixed in 10.5.8 on at least 2 PowerPC Macs I've updated to 10.5.8 so far.

Maybe 10.5.9 will fix that? Of course, nobody really knows if there will ever be a 10.5.9 or if Quicktime X will be released for PowerPC. I think Quicktime X might be the last straw for PowerPC users. If Quicktime (the basic foundations of iTunes) isn't updated to stay current with Snow Leopard on PowerPC, I think that might cause me to not buy another Mac again.

r.j.s

Aug 8, 2009, 11:34 AM

Their most loyal customers, PowerPC users!

Just how exactly are PPC users more loyal than anyone else?

fehhkk

Aug 8, 2009, 11:39 AM

Now Apple is one of the richest companies left during this bad economy with tons of resources and who are they screwing over?
Their most loyal customers, PowerPC users!

If those PPC customers were truly loyal, they would be running the latest hardware, shouldn't they?

HyperZboy

Aug 8, 2009, 11:44 AM

Just how exactly are PPC users more loyal than anyone else?

Very simple answer, some of the early PowerPC years were very dark years for Apple, a time when the company was rumored to be going out of business, yet I still bought Macs and convinced even my company at the time to use Macs (which wasn't easy, trust me).

So, yes PowerPC users are more loyal.

It's easy to jump on the bandwagon when times are going good.

r.j.s

Aug 8, 2009, 11:49 AM

Very simple answer, some of the early PowerPC years were very dark years for Apple, a time when the company was rumored to be going out of business, yet I still bought Macs and convinced even my company at the time to use Macs (which wasn't easy, trust me).

So, yes PowerPC users are more loyal.

It's easy to jump on the bandwagon when times are going good.

That doesn't make every PPC user more loyal than anyone else.

The only people that are loyal to Apple are the shareholders, and Apple has a legal obligation to move things forward.

Technology progresses, old technology continues to work even after new technology replaces it. Your G5s will continue to work, but you cannot expect them to keep up with technology forever.

AidenShaw

Aug 8, 2009, 11:50 AM

There is one quite big mistake, there is no x64, it simply does not exist!

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51i8fRbT5gL._SL500_AA280_.jpg http://www.sun.com/images/zot/zot_x64_intel_hero_board_v2.jpg

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/888733

You should tell that to Microsoft, Sun and other companies that use "x64" to cover both Intel and AMD systems.

A lot of people still make the mistake to think that the 64 bit version of x86 is a different architecture.

Will a 32-bit program run on an x64 in long mode? No.

Will an x64 program run on an x86, or an x64 in 32-bit mode? No.

They are two different architectures which are not binary compatible.

In addition to the obvious extension to 64-bit addressing, x64 also dropped a lot of cruft from the x86 architecture (like the 8-bit and 16-bit instructions, and even some of the 32-bit instructions).

Officially the 64 bit version of x86 is called x86-64.

According to ??

Also Windows XP does not work on IA-64 since you seem to mean Itanium...

Yes it does. It's no longer sold, but a version of XP for Itanium was released.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb457053.aspx

"Microsoft Windows XP 64-Bit Edition
Updated: August 15, 2001
May 2001

...

The 64-bit Microsoft® Windows® platform will provide high availability, advanced scalability and large memory support based on the Intel® Itanium™ processor family with its extensive multiprocessing features, powerful floating-point arithmetic extensions (up to 6.4 GFLOPS @800MHz when tuned for 3-D graphics performance) and multimedia-specific instructions.

The initial release of the Intel Itanium processor, previously code-named Merced, will primarily be deployed as a development and evaluation platform and by early adopter customers who are pushing the memory limitations of 32-bit systems. Customers only using 32-bit applications and not working with data sets larger than 2 GB will find that 32-bit systems continue to be the best environment for those applications.

User Scenarios

Windows XP 64-Bit Edition and the Intel Itanium processor family are designed to address the most demanding business needs of today's Internet-based world, including e-commerce, data mining, online transaction processing, memory-intensive high-end graphics, complex mathematics and high-performance multimedia applications
"

avidmacuser

Aug 8, 2009, 12:30 PM

Network issues alone will make me happy.....:cool:

Yes apparently people are having network issues after applying the 10.5.8 update.... hope youre happy :o

holden57

Aug 8, 2009, 12:38 PM

Does this thread have anything to do with 10.5.8 anymore? Because that's what I wanted to read about, not all these debates, which seem to be very passionate on each side.

dukebound85

Aug 8, 2009, 12:41 PM

Very simple answer, some of the early PowerPC years were very dark years for Apple, a time when the company was rumored to be going out of business, yet I still bought Macs and convinced even my company at the time to use Macs (which wasn't easy, trust me).

So, yes PowerPC users are more loyal.

It's easy to jump on the bandwagon when times are going good.

lol i dont know how to respond to this

who is loyal to a company anyways? i certainly am not

if apple starts sucking, then bye bye apple

i could care less about the company once it stops offering what id like

HyperZboy

Aug 8, 2009, 12:43 PM

That doesn't make every PPC user more loyal than anyone else.

The only people that are loyal to Apple are the shareholders, and Apple has a legal obligation to move things forward.

Technology progresses, old technology continues to work even after new technology replaces it. Your G5s will continue to work, but you cannot expect them to keep up with technology forever.

It's NOT OLD TECHNOLOGY! Please, people.
Stop with this PowerPC is ancient slow technology.
Some of these machines were still sold less than 3 years ago.

My G5s are faster than many of the first generation Intel Macs!

And shareholders don't have to be anymore loyal than disgruntled customers have to be either!

These PowerPC-bashing arguments are all ridiculous false arguments.

Obviously, all the Intel people are tired of the PowerPC whining because they don't care and want their Intel Mac to run better.

But we ALL paid the SAME $129 for Leopard.

Yet only some of us are getting the Snow Leopard bug fixes and there are still PowerPC problems with 10.5.8

dukebound85

Aug 8, 2009, 12:48 PM

It's NOT OLD TECHNOLOGY! Please, people.
Stop with this PowerPC is ancient slow technology.

My G5s are faster than many of the first generation Intel Macs!

And shareholders don't have to be anymore loyal than disgruntled customers have to either!

PPC is old

It hasnt been sold for 3 freaking years

the future is intel and this notion that SL will only be intel has been rumored for quite a while and then finally confirmed

id rather have apple focus on the current platform than supporting legacy code and adding additional bloat to the os, not to mention many man years to maintain that code:rolleyes:

But we ALL paid the SAME $129 for Leopard.

Yet only some of us are getting the Snow Leopard bug fixes and there are still PowerPC problems with 10.5.8

Your point?

If I am not mistaken, there has been 9 releases of 10.5.8, similar to EVERY other past OS in terms of fixing bugs. Who is to say that this is the last one

When you bought leopard, was there a clause or something saying this isnt the last OS to run on PPC? didn't think so

seriously

HyperZboy

Aug 8, 2009, 12:56 PM

PPC is old

It hasnt been sold for 3 freaking years

the future is intel and this notion that SL will only be intel has been rumored for quite a while and then finally confirmed

id rather have apple focus on the current platform than supporting legacy code and adding additional bloat to the os, not to mention many years to maintain that code:rolleyes:

Your point?

If I am not mistaken, there has been 9 releases of 10.5.8, similar to EVERY other past OS in terms of fixing bugs. Who is to say that this is the last one

seriously

Someone made a very good point way back in this thread...

People aren't discarding 2-3 year old computers anymore because technology and speed improvement have slowed considerably.

Therein lies the problem. People have 2-3 yr old computers that they expected to be supported the same way people expect their car dealer to still service a 5 year old vehicle.
Apple has always supported Macs longer than 2-3 years. Snow Leopard changes that long-standing policy.

Apple has more than enough resources to support machines they sold 2-3 years ago.
I say 2-3 years because Apple often sold PowerPC Macs to schools and consumers even after the last G5 models were technically discontinued. Apple often continues to sell products after their discontinuation date as do other companies I'm sure.

So that argument just holds no water.

There's no sense arguing the legal issues of how Leopard was sold since I'm not a class action lawyer nor do I play one on TV. I just think Apple screwed over a significant number of its loyal fan base with how they handled Snow Leopard. Even calling it Snow Leopard was a mistake.

avidmacuser

Aug 8, 2009, 12:56 PM

Boot into Safe mode and in there use Disk Utility and Repair Permissions. Then boot back into you regular account and it should be fixed.

did that and nope, still a crudload of

'permissions differ...'

'permissions fixed...' ....but not really. :(

dukebound85

Aug 8, 2009, 12:59 PM

Someone made a very good point way back in this thread...

People aren't discarding 2-3 year old computers anymore because technology and speed improvement have slowed considerably.

Therein lies the problem. People have 2-3 yr old computers that they expected to be supported the same way people expect their car dealer to still service a 5 year old vehicle.
Apple has always supported Macs longer than 2-3 years. Snow Leopard changes that long-standing policy.

Apple has more than enough resources to support machines they sold 2-3 years ago.
I say 2-3 years because Apple often sold PowerPC Macs to schools and consumers even after the last G5 models were technically discontinued. Apple often continues to sell products after their discontinuation date as do other companies I'm sure.

So that argument just holds no water.

The argument really doesn't matter does it?

The reality is that if you want SL, you need intel.

No amount of complaining is going to change that

HyperZboy

Aug 8, 2009, 01:03 PM

The argument really doesn't matter does it?

The reality is that if you want SL, you need intel.

No amount of complaining is going to change that

You never know.

Never thought I'd really get $100 back from Apple on my iPhone either. :D

That only happened through lots of people blogging and complaining.

Maybe Snow Leopard will never be released for PowerPC, but its still possible for Apple to put some of the Snow Leopard BUG FIXES in future releases of 10.5 Leopard. That's my hope, at least.

BongoBanger

Aug 8, 2009, 01:03 PM

avidmacuser

Aug 8, 2009, 01:06 PM

Yikes, there are sure are quite a few reports people having problems with the 10.5.8 update it seems. With snow leopard just around the corner, they better upgrade asap!?! :apple::rolleyes:

HyperZboy

Aug 8, 2009, 01:09 PM

did that and nope, still a crudload of

'permissions differ...'

'permissions fixed...' ....but not really. :(

10.5.8 does not fix this bug. I can confirm that.
I don't understand why Apple can't fix that mess.

I realize most of the permissions are not causing problems, but I have had problems before that fixing permissions seemed to fix.

Yet in Leopard, as opposed to Tiger, Repair Permissions takes forever and the permissions are never really fixed. I just don't get it.

Why can't they fix this?

dukebound85

Aug 8, 2009, 01:11 PM

10.5.8 does not fix this bug. I can confirm that.
I don't understand why Apple can't fix that mess.

I realize most of the permissions are not causing problems, but I have had problems before that fixing permissions seemed to fix.

Yet in Leopard, as opposed to Tiger, Repair Permissions takes forever and the permissions are never really fixed. I just don't get it.

Can't they fix this?

compared to 10.5.0, it has sped up a ton but I agree, compared to Tiger, its still slow

AppleMatt

Aug 8, 2009, 01:14 PM

Holy crap it's on topic. Quick! Grab the opportunity!

Mac OS X 10.5: Disk Utility's Repair Disk Permissions messages that you can safely ignore
http://support.apple.com/kb/TS1448

AppleMatt

HyperZboy

Aug 8, 2009, 01:16 PM

I don't understand why people make such a fuss about SL not running on PPC Macs since they haven't been sold for about three years.

Sometimes you have to upgrade your hardware if you want the newest toys. That's just the way it is.

Apple historically supported Macs with new operating system upgrades for longer than 2-3 years.

When Leopard was released, it supported a Mac released in July, 2001!

Leopard even could be installed on older Macs than that with some tricks, but that's really not relevant to my point.

Snow Leopard breaks Apple's long history of supporting older Macs and breaks a trust with its customers that goes back decades.

xbjllb

Aug 8, 2009, 01:16 PM

HyperZboy

Aug 8, 2009, 01:29 PM

compared to 10.5.0, it has sped up a ton but I agree, compared to Tiger, its still slow

While I do have Leopard running on all of my Powermac G4s and G5s as well as my Intel Mac, if I had to do it all over again, I'd never recommend that anyone with a Powermac G4 or Powerbook G4 upgrade to Leopard. All Leopard does on those Macs is bog your system down with bloat on these oldest supported PowerPC machines. Although technically, they were all supported by Apple and those are machines going back to 2001 and 2002.

Even on my G5s, Tiger is faster and more stable than Leopard, but I do like it.
It just seems to still need more work and I fear all that work is going into Snow Leopard now, NOT fixing the problems in Leopard, and especially not for PowerPC Mac users. :(

MagnusVonMagnum

Aug 8, 2009, 01:44 PM

And even after MacOS 9 was put in a coffin, you could for many many years still run MacOS 9 programs through 10.2, 10.3, and 10.4!
Snow Leopard totally breaks Apple's tradition of support and trust with its customers.

When you think about it, they might as well have left Classic in Leopard since it was the last PPC supported OS. Now PPC users have to choose between using the more stable Tiger with Classic support, but not being able to use many of the latest software updates (which already dropped support for Tiger; again how much faster will that happen with Snow Leopard that dumps Universal Binaries completely?). It's really a shame because it didn't have to be that way. But Apple has a history of throwing older software out the door along the way. OS9 legacy software is useless on an Intel machine without an emulator (that could run under any OS).

If Snow Leopard were a major operating system update that was substantially different than Leopard, PowerPC users would not be griping as much. But it's not. It's basically an optimized version of Leopard for Intel Macs with major BUG FIXES for just $29. Only not everyone who paid $129

Yes, it's a MINOR update at best. Minor updates are not the place for major changes like dumping 1 out of every 3 Macs out there (maybe more). You see the same tired arguments from the former PPC zealots (now Intel zealots) that Leopard will continue to work for years, but they ignore the fact that it will continue to have the same annoying bugs for years and never get fixed; other GUI improvements in Snow Leopard will never be realized and newer software updates will simply not work in Leopard since support for Universal Binaries has been dumped in Snow Leopard (right now PPC machines get support because it's EASY to make a Universal Binary; once that is not longer the case and it's extra work to support Leopard, MOST will drop Leopard support like a stone within a year or two and that means the THE END for PPC machines even if Leopard "continues to work just fine". That's like saying OS9 continues to work just fine on that Blue G3 that came with it. Yeah, try to even get a modern browser for OS9 right now (at least someone finally decided to work on updating them).

The point is that performance should dictate the time to upgrade, not artificial lines in the sand from the company that stands to benefit from you buying a new computer. And therein lies the problem. Apple makes its money from selling hardware, not software. Because they do not have to compete directly with other hardware companies (because they are not allowed to install OS X, their hardware is of little value to Mac fans short of hacking), they have VERY VERY high profit margins. That means they have a VERY high incentive to try an get you to buy more hardware even if you don't need it. Thus, there is a conflict of interests there. They want to sell more hardware so they simply have the OS not support older hardware any longer an thus try to force you to buy newer hardware. Even the software companies go it on it with the change to Intel. Photoshop CS2 ran poorly on Intel machines through Rosetta so if you wanted proper performance on your Intel Mac, you had to buy CS3, even if it had squat for new features. Cha-Ching! Photoshop isn't cheap; not even upgrades. The whole switch to Intel was very costly to users and very profitable to everyone else.

is allowed to have access to these major bug fixes and optimizations. That's basically Apple ditching some of its most loyal and long-time customers who stuck with Apple through thick and thin, even when the company was in trouble.

Yeah, but if you're using PPC then you're not "loyal" at all in their eyes. A "loyal" customer buys a new machine from them every year. That's the ONLY customer they fully support. You have to pay them to support you after that (AppleCare) and then they only care as much as the contract states.

Now Apple is one of the richest companies left during this bad economy with tons of resources and who are they screwing over?
Their most loyal customers, PowerPC users!

They are apparently too poor to hire a few extra programmers. Remember how they delayed Leopard to get the iPhone out on time (as if they could not simply hire some more people with that $23+ BILLION in cash reserves).

By the way, just to update people on 10.5.8... NO, it does NOT fix my Never Ending Disk Permissions problems that I do believe affect stability in Leopard (but I'll not post my Disk Utility log again, don't worry. LOL). Maybe this doesn't happen on Intel Macs, I don't know. But I know Disk Permissions are still never fixed in 10.5.8 on at least 2 PowerPC Macs I've updated to 10.5.8 so far.

I've never heard of that problem. My upgraded PowerMac runs Leopard just fine without any permission issues. I also have Tiger and OS9 running on it. But then I'm using a SATA card with twin 1.5TB internal Seagate Barracuda drives. Maybe that makes a difference? The internal controller has like a 125GB limit or something which makes it mostly unusable for a media controller. I'm already getting to the point where I might soon need two more 1.5TB drives.

Maybe 10.5.9 will fix that? Of course, nobody really knows if there will ever be a 10.5.9 or if Quicktime X will be released for PowerPC. I think Quicktime X might be the last straw for PowerPC users. If Quicktime (the basic foundations of iTunes) isn't updated to stay current with Snow Leopard on PowerPC, I think that might cause me to not buy another Mac again.

I think the sad part is that they are only now starting to add GPU hardware acceleration to the OS. Whereas my machine might have had a chance to run HD video under Windows with a little bit of GPU acceleration from my ATI 9800 Pro, it has no chance under OS X because there is no hardware support for video playback at all. Whether Apple adds support for more hardware by the time of Snow Leopard's release remains to be seen, but it looks like I'll get hosed with my Intel MBP as well as the last I heard only the newest of the new machines (last few months) get any H264 hardware support. Yeah, like 8600M GT doesn't have enough Ooomph.... The machine is less than a year old (bought it last October). For all the talk about OS X being light years ahead of Windows, it is way behind Windows in terms of graphics support. DirectX is way beyond OpenGL in so many areas and Apple doesn't even have the latest OpenGL in Leopard and may not have the latest in Snow Leopard even. They just don't care. It doesn't directly make them money so it's not important.

To keep using this PowerMac machine as my whole house server, it basically needs iTunes to keep getting updates for some time to come. Given I'm still getting Tiger updates to iTunes, I might at least be able to delay getting a replacement machine (again I'm going Hackintosh unless Apple gets competitive) for a year or two. It's too bad because short of HD video and gaming (which is almost non-existent even on Intel Macs too), the machine runs everything I throw at it just fine and smooth (all Internet stuff, M$ Office, Photoshop CS3, etc.) Just because it's old, that doesn't mean it's useless. Computer speed increases have come to a crawl the past few years. This machine is updated to a 2005 level CPU/GPU so it's only 3.5 years behind the curve. That translates to 1/2 the speed of my less than one year old MBP running on one CPU (i.e. I could have gotten the dual-CPU G4 which would have been 1/2 speed of the MBP on both CPUs). 2x-3x faster isn't exactly light speed differences these days. It means nothing on most software. Video editing and rendering and games are the only things you even notice a difference between the two.

In other words, a faster machine will not really make browsing or word processing or messaging or e-mailing or even photo editing that much faster. They already run in real time. "The Need For Speed" era is coming to an end. Operating System BLOAT is the only reason you ever needed increasing speed to begin with on most computers. My Amiga 3000 with a 25MHz 68030 ran a WYSIWYG Word Processor just fine (Pro Write). Why would I ever need a faster computer to run a word processor except that the operating systems got more and more bloated in the '90s and early 21st century? Look at Vista to see what I mean. The same software under XP runs 2x faster. In fact, a 2 year old Vista machine might run slower than my 2001 era but upgraded PowerMac running Leopard for many operations. Well, you can only bloat so much.

Not everyone needs to do video editing. HDTV resolutions are going to be around for a long time. Only a paradigm shift will change the need for huge amounts of power (say virtual reality or a whole new type of computer interface). Basic browsing and office software just doesn't need 8 CPUs running at 4GHz. So I think companies like Apple need to artificially create walls to computing so you will replace that older machine. Because otherwise, there is no need to because it will still run today's software just fine.

Anyway, keep in mind that 90% of Mac users are extremely self-centered and couldn't care less about anyone but themselves. They are a part of the "Me" generation and everything is Me...Me...Me. Me too. You won't get any sympathy for your situation from them. Their attitude is buy another Apple or shut up (Apple LOVES that attitude of course because it benefits them). I watch these Bible Belt Republican types on TV every day on the news bashing health care reform in the U.S. because they don't want to pay for others to get health care like they have. I find that extremely amusing given what the Bible actually says about helping those less fortunate than you. I guess they ignorant of what is actually in the Bibles they keep thumping, kind of like how most Mac "fanatics" don't know anything about the computer hardware they're holding, but try to put you in your place anyway for having the nerve to argue with them.

PPC is old

It hasnt been sold for 3 freaking years

Wow. That's SUCH a long time. It's like half a life-time! (for a 6 year old). To those of us in our 30s, it's a freaking drop in the bucket, dude. If you don't use your computer every day, three years goes by pretty fast. AppleTV has been out two years now and it hasn't gone very far since it was released. Heck, it's taken me almost half a year just to dump all my DVDs, Laserdiscs and videotapes into iTunes and then there was all the CDs and scanning photo albums. Time is relative. Capability is what matters, not time and in that respect, computer progress has been slowing steadily for the past decade. Today's computers with the same amount of cores versus CPUs are considerably less than 2x faster than the same CPU from a G5 three years ago. This is why a G5 Quad STILL runs circles around the lesser Intel models out today. It doesn't matter that it's 3 years old. What matters is the thing is smoking fast, even today. Or it's more like they haven't made that much progress in CPUs in the past three years. Of course, Apple wants you to buy a new computer. It's how they make money. They know you wouldn't buy one if you got support, so they ended support to try and force you to buy one. It's really that simple. All the ME generation reples about "me me me" won't change that simple fact. We know you selfish types only care about yourselves. We get it. You're spoiled by having been handed everything on a silver platter. I grew up poor. I have empathy towards others in bad situations. I sure as heck don't give a crap about a multi-billion dollar company that sends jobs to Communist China just to cut labor costs so they can add to their 23+Billion in cash reserves. Whether you believe in a god or karma or just physics, there are consequences to all actions, good and bad. You can ignore it; you can be part of the problem or you can be part of the solution. But the choice is always yours to make.

While I do have Leopard running on all of my Powermac G4s and G5s as well as my Intel Mac, if I had to do it all over again, I'd never recommend that anyone with a Powermac G4 or Powerbook G4 upgrade to Leopard. All Leopard does on those Macs is bog your system down with bloat on these oldest supported PowerPC machines. Although technically, they were all supported by Apple and those are machines going back to 2001 and 2002.

Even on my G5s, Tiger is faster and more stable than Leopard, but I do like it.
It just seems to still need more work and I fear all that work is going into Snow Leopard now, NOT fixing the problems in Leopard, and especially not for PowerPC Mac users. :(

I'd agree on the speed/stability points, but as I talked about regarding Snow Leopard, software developers ABANDON older versions of the operating system with OS X so much faster than Windows. I finally switched to Leopard because several applications I use simply wouldn't run under Tiger anymore. Other things like Blue-Tooth support for headphones have limited support in Tiger. Niceties like the space-bar preview on my MBP (that only runs Leopard) were greatly missed on the PowerMac, etc. and USB 2.0 support is over 2x faster in Leopard (they never fixed it in Tiger and never will!). The latter greatly affected things like loading up an iPod Touch in half the time in Leopard and so the switch was inevitable. Leopard has improved and it's only marginally slower now than Tiger, except in the User Interface department, which gets a much lower score than Tiger on Xbench. Of course, some games don't run properly in Leopard (e.g. No One Lives Forever 2 runs fine here in Tiger and not in Leopard despite trying different settings) and Classic support is lost, but I rarely need to run OS9 software now and some only runs smoothly in OS9 directly, not classic (like old games).

So once a program you like gets an important update but only runs in Snow Leopard, you are screwed. Once a program no longer distributes Universal binaries (even if it DOES still support Leopard), you're screwed. Basically, if you're a PPC user, come this fall you're screwed. We could have gotten another year+ of support if they simply waited one more OS release to drop PPC. This is a minor bug-fix/optimization upgrade. It's really not the right place to dump PPC, IMO and negates all prior time-lines for support. Who cares if OpenCL is of no benefit. It's of no benefit to some Intel machines too. That's not the point. The point is whether you can continue to use software updates or not for your favorite programs and that will change very quickly this fall.

hss1

Aug 8, 2009, 01:49 PM

Same old arguments "get with the future hippy, PPC is for crustys" and crap like that :rolleyes:

I have both Intel and PPC machines, and yet I'll be pissed off if SL is Intel-only. Why? Because it'll be a purely marketing decision*, a cynical exercise* to give a particularly loyal and existing customer base a kick up the backside that is neither deserved or warranted.

Thing is, there's no reason they can't make SL universal from a practical point of view. I could understand it if SL delivered the much-anticipated (why? I'm not sure) Marble interface or utilised Core Image in some new way, something that meant a PPC version was just not viable.

However, Snow Leopard is essentially just a streamlined version of Leopard, a leaner meaner greener OS (machine, sorry Mr Foreman please don't sue). Something you could argue that PPC users would benefit from more than Intel users in some respects.

That said, I expect it (Intel-only) because it reeks* of Apple 2009.

Snow leopard main features Grand central and Opencl do not support the PPC architecture, plus nearly all the Apple PPC machines are all slowly going vintage which means (Obsolete) as parts and support will no longer available for them. Unfortunately the tech industry moves on and the PPC G4 & G5 architecture is old technology now

http://www.apple.com/uk/macosx/technology/#grandcentral

Maxime

Aug 8, 2009, 01:49 PM

I'm happy 10.5.8 fixed the resolution problem.

Being stuck at 1900x1080 sucks. :D

dukebound85

Aug 8, 2009, 01:52 PM

Wow. That's SUCH a long time. It's like half a life-time! (for a 6 year old). To those of us in our 30s, it's a freaking drop in the bucket, dude. If you don't use your computer every day, three years goes by pretty fast. AppleTV has been out two years now and it hasn't gone very far since it was released. Heck, it's taken me almost half a year just to dump all my DVDs, Laserdiscs and videotapes into iTunes and then there was all the CDs and scanning photo albums. Time is relative. Capability is what matters, not time and in that respect, computer progress has been slowing steadily for the past decade. Today's computers with the same amount of cores versus CPUs are considerably less than 2x faster than the same CPU from a G5 three years ago. This is why a G5 Quad STILL runs circles around the lesser Intel models out today. It doesn't matter that it's 3 years old. What matters is the thing is smoking fast, even today. Or it's more like they haven't made that much progress in CPUs in the past three years. Of course, Apple wants you to buy a new computer. It's how they make money. They know you wouldn't buy one if you got support, so they ended support to try and force you to buy one. It's really that simple. All the ME generation reples about "me me me" won't change that simple fact. We know you selfish types only care about yourselves. We get it. You're spoiled by having been handed everything on a silver platter. I grew up poor. I have empathy towards others in bad situations. I sure as heck don't give a crap about a multi-billion dollar company that sends jobs to Communist China just to cut labor costs so they can add to their 23+Billion in cash reserves. Whether you believe in a god or karma or just physics, there are consequences to all actions, good and bad. You can ignore it; you can be part of the problem or you can be part of the solution. But the choice is always yours to make.

Drop the insults bud:rolleyes:

The fact is that the architecture between ppc and intel is significant in difference and that is why they are not supporting it as the future is not ppc

It's not as if your machine is suddenly going to stop working
Technology advances. Realize that. This case was a coding reason as opposed to the capability of the platform in why it was dropped

HyperZboy

Aug 8, 2009, 02:46 PM

------------------------------------------------------------

Snow leopard main features Grand central and Opencl do not support the PPC architecture, plus nearly all the Apple PPC machines are all slowly going vintage which means (Obsolete) as parts and support will no longer available for them. Unfortunately the tech industry moves on and the PPC G4 & G5 architecture is old technology now

http://www.apple.com/uk/macosx/technology/#grandcentral

What you're saying is only partially true.
Some of Snow Leopard's "new features" are not supported by PowerPC, but some of those same features aren't even supported by Intel Macs, meaning OpenCL on Intel graphics.
Nope, no OpenCL on Intel graphics, sorry.

G5s are 64bit and multiprocessor, so that throws your other argument out too.

Ok, that's 2 more PowerPC myths shot down.

Furthermore, there's no reason a PCI Express G5 couldn't run an OpenCL capable graphics card, other than the fact that Apple is dropping support for all these expensive machines and no one offers such a card.

This continuing myth that these machines are old slow technology needs to die.

It's just not true.

The only thing that's true is that Apple is not supporting machines sold 2-3 years ago with a new operating system for the first time in the company's history.

JFreak

Aug 8, 2009, 03:16 PM

Historically does not mean "forever".

The last hardware transition Apple went through was Motorola --> PowerPC and it was +10 years ago. Not many of you can even remember such thing happened. Since PPC era there has not been the need to move to another platform until thils recent move to Intel. So there has been the PPC-era support and now there is this PPC/Intel transition-era support; and I would say Apple as done wonderful job in supporting PPC *and* bringing us the new Intel-era. It is impossible to support the old "indefinetely" and simultaneously develop the new platform/paradigm, but Apple has given the old customers "enough" time for the transition so I believe not many are really pissed off.

Sure, I would have loved SL for my trusty old Quad G5 but I'm not getting it and such is life. All good things must end somewhere and I guess PPC had its time already so now it's time to move on.

revbarabbas

Aug 8, 2009, 03:34 PM

gavin83209

Aug 8, 2009, 03:44 PM

Agreed. If you want to argue about it, start a PPC vs. Intel topic where you can debate it all you want. This is getting out of hand and frankly, I don't want to hear it. I am interested to see how 10.5.8 affects other people's hardware, however.

chrisliv

Aug 8, 2009, 03:45 PM

Well,

This update greatly improved my connecting to a wireless network from afar, on a 2009 Mac Mini that has an upgraded 7200 rpm Hitachi HD.

Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone

dukebound85

Aug 8, 2009, 03:48 PM

revbarabbas

Aug 8, 2009, 03:58 PM

Well it seems this update didn't do anything for my wireless connectivity problems...before the update I had a problem with my MB dropping from the internet every couple of days...and I still have this problem. I've tried changing the channel my router operates on but to no avail. The problem doesn't exist when I boot into Vista however so I know it's not a problem with the router or the wireless component in the Mac (unless the router is unfriendly with Macs...but it was advertised as having Mac support). The problem seems to be with the OS X software because I can connect to the network, just not the internet.

I have a unibody MB 2.4Ghz bought a few months ago running 10.5.8

Any help would be appreciated.

AppleMatt

Aug 8, 2009, 03:59 PM

I can't seem to attach pictures to emails since I applied the 10.5.8 update (neither dragging them in nor selecting them in the file open dialog). Is anyone else seeing this problem?

AppleMatt

HyperZboy

Aug 8, 2009, 04:02 PM

Ok...I'll admit I jumped into this debacle as well but this is getting annoying now.

This thread is for discussion and support of the 10.5.8 update ONLY.

Just cause this is the last minor bug fix before the release of Snow Leopard is no reason for everyone to get into a flame war with each other over PPC vs. Intel.

So for the sake of the thread please let it end! There are a lot of people that have some problems with this update and they need this thread to address those problems and filling the thread with off-topic fluff is not going to help them find the replies to their request for help.

/RANT

We don't know that 10.5.8 is the last update before Snow Leopard and that is part of the discussion, that it shouldn't be because several problems still aren't fixed.

If 10.5.8 is the last Apple PowerPC release, it will go down as very bad PR for Apple and extremely poor treatment of longtime Apple customers beyond anything bad Apple has ever done in the past as far as abandoning support throughout the company's history.

I mean think about it, you're talking about abandoning support for a $4000 Mac 2-3 years after it was purchased.

The argument is not over Intel vs. PowerPC. I have both types.

It's about doing what's just right and good for your customers in my opinion.

I don't even understand why the Intel people are even listening or arguing.
They shouldn't even care about 10.5.8 for the most part since most will take advantage of the $29 Sweetheart Snow Leopard MAJOR BUG FIX Deal the minute its released.

MagnusVonMagnum

Aug 8, 2009, 04:05 PM

It's not as if your machine is suddenly going to stop working
Technology advances. Realize that. This case was a coding reason as opposed to the capability of the platform in why it was dropped

IF developers supported older versions of the OS X operating system, you would be correct that not getting Snow Leopard wouldn't be that big of a deal. The problem with OS X is that developers CAN and DO stop supporting the prior operating system in many cases in VERY short order. Many apps already don't support Tiger and it's a minor change to Leopard in noticeable features. Given the low cost of the upgrade, the ONLY people that will not upgrade to Snow Leopard will be those that CANNOT upgrade to it and along with new features like OpenCL, developers will drop Leopard support like a bad habit (probably in less than a year). That means no more binaries for Leopard, let alone PPC Universal binaries. PPC is dead with Snow Leopard's release save a few major apps like Firefox and iTunes. The sad part is 3 years ago, its was Intel machines that got second-class support with very slow Rosetta emulation bogging them down, making them very unattractive the first year. Apple created their own problem and so Apple should have stood by it long enough for performance to warrant dumping the rest of PPC (another 2 years or so or one more OS release). And not it was NOT a coding problem; it was a business decision to push for hardware sales of newer computers, even if those computers are not very attractive right now in their price range and capability (Mac Pro is way overpriced compared to what a 4-core PC could do for less than 1/2 the price in most areas).

People want to know how 10.5.8 affects machines? I notice no obvious differences what-so-ever on either my MBP or my PowerMac. Running XBench on the PowerMac (where Tiger differences can be easily shown to be superior in some areas like disk access and the user interface, but massively slower in others like USB 2.0 performance), I see slightly slower results in most tests in 10.5.8 versus 10.5.6 (where I last tested) except for the interface which is now a few points higher/faster and disk access which is a bit closer to Tiger's numbers (92MB/sec reads in Leopard versus 105 in Tiger with my Segate Barracuda drives and Sata interface). Beyond that, stability seems to be the same so far over the whole two days it's been installed on both machines. The airport express running the whole house audio/video network is no more or less stable than it was yesterday. Gigabit connections are normal between the 3 computers connected with it and both printers I have (Brother laser and inkjet models) remain the same (i.e. they work fine). Whatever changes 10.5.8 made under the hood, they are not noticeable in day to day use here. But then I had few problems under 10.5.7 on either computer.

Michaelgtrusa

Aug 8, 2009, 04:07 PM

-js-

Aug 8, 2009, 04:14 PM

Would people just stop replying to HyperZboy? My God. Enough already. This is not the place for this debate. Way off topic.

On topic:

I just updated my MBP Classic using Software Update (not the combo update) and the only odd thing was that it seemed to restart twice after the install script. But since then, there are no problems that I have seen. Not so far. I haven't noticed any email problems or Safari problems or iTunes problems, or normal system problems, that is to say. I haven't fired up my Apogee Duet or MS Word, but if anything is broken by this I'll report back. I have a Carbon Copy Cloner image of my drive just before the update, so I can always step back if I need to. Highly recommended to do this before an update, by the way.

And for the record, I have noticed ZERO bugs with 10.5.7. It's been great for me, and I hope 10.5.8 will follow suit.

revbarabbas

Aug 8, 2009, 04:16 PM

We don't know that 10.5.8 is the last update before Snow Leopard and that is part of the discussion, that it shouldn't be because several problems still aren't fixed.

If 10.5.8 is the last Apple PowerPC release, it will go down as very bad PR for Apple and extremely poor treatment of longtime Apple customers beyond anything bad Apple has ever done in the past as far as abandoning support throughout the company's history.

I mean think about it, you're talking about abandoning support for a $4000 Mac 2-3 years after it was purchased.

The argument is not over Intel vs. PowerPC. I have both types.

It's about doing what's just right and good for your customers in my opinion.

I don't even understand why the Intel people are even listening or arguing.
They shouldn't even care about 10.5.8 for the most part since most will take advantage of the $29 Sweetheart Snow Leopard MAJOR BUG FIX Deal the minute its released.

The argument seems to be about PPC v. Intel AND a certain amount of outrage at Apple for the perceived abandonment of PPC hardware.

As for the last minor bug fix update before Snow Leopard comment I made....you inferred incorrectly that I was saying it was the last update EVER. I was not saying that. I was saying it is (most likely) the last bug fix update that will be released BEFORE Snow Leopard comes out. Of course there will be other bug fixes for Leopard....but they will most likely come out AFTER the release of Snow Leopard.

And as for the assumption that Snow Leopard is a Major Bug fix, that just isn't true...it is a Major overhaul of the entire OS, it's just been marketed as "Leopard Only Better" for the $29 price point to make sense to the general public. The fact that they are adding any sort of 64 bit support has been a feature a long time coming, plus all the changes (whether minor or major) to the UI constitute more than just a Bug Fix.

HyperZboy

Aug 8, 2009, 04:17 PM

I can't seem to attach pictures to emails since I applied the 10.5.8 update (neither dragging them in nor selecting them in the file open dialog). Is anyone else seeing this problem?

AppleMatt

Did you do the combo update or the Software Update smaller version?

Geez, now I'm scared to update more machines.
I've only done 2 so far, but did not test email yet.

I'd like to hear lots more about this before I update another machine. :(

I always do the combo updates myself, seems to be more glitch free.

avidmacuser

Aug 8, 2009, 04:23 PM

Holy crap it's on topic. Quick! Grab the opportunity!

Mac OS X 10.5: Disk Utility's Repair Disk Permissions messages that you can safely ignore
http://support.apple.com/kb/TS1448

AppleMatt

Do file permissions have anything to do with security? If so, might a fitting analogy be that if I owned a car that had keys floating around elsewhere, I'd be told to ignore it and be assured that my car would still drive normally? Or another perhaps that even though other family members are supposed to have working keys for the same family car, some of them may not be able to open the doors for it?

Just curious if the analogy fits so I can better understand what's happening. ;)

revbarabbas

Aug 8, 2009, 04:23 PM

jw74

Aug 8, 2009, 04:27 PM

HyperZboy

Aug 8, 2009, 04:30 PM

The argument seems to be about PPC v. Intel AND a certain amount of outrage at Apple for the perceived abandonment of PPC hardware.

As for the last minor bug fix update before Snow Leopard comment I made....you inferred incorrectly that I was saying it was the last update EVER. I was not saying that. I was saying it is (most likely) the last bug fix update that will be released BEFORE Snow Leopard comes out. Of course there will be other bug fixes for Leopard....but they will most likely come out AFTER the release of Snow Leopard.

And as for the assumption that Snow Leopard is a Major Bug fix, that just isn't true...it is a Major overhaul of the entire OS, it's just been marketed as "Leopard Only Better" for the $29 price point to make sense to the general public. The fact that they are adding any sort of 64 bit support has been a feature a long time coming, plus all the changes (whether minor or major) to the UI constitute more than just a Bug Fix.

I disagree that Snow Leopard is not a major bug fix, but I do agree its a 64bit overhaul.
However, PowerMac G5s and iMac G5s were sold by Apple under a marketing spin that they were 64bit computers so I do think there's some room for outrage that the REAL 64bit update to Leopard will not be released for those PowerPC computers at all.

If Snow Leopard were an entirely new operating system, #1 it wouldn't be $29 because Apple would lose money on it, #2 it wouldn't be called Snow Leopard.

It just amazes me that Intel users are so adamant that Apple abandon $2000-$4000 computers 2-3 years old when Apple has never done such a thing ever in its history before. Leopard was sold to people with computers manufactured in 2001 and 2002! That's like 6-7 years!

Snow Leopard is an outrage because it is a complete break from how Apple treated its customers for decades. It's just that simple.

And I'm going to stop ranting about it, I think I've made my points.

I'm now more concerned about this 10.5.8 MAIL problem actually.
Has anybody else had this issue? I don't want to update anymore machines until I know more.

rtheb

Aug 8, 2009, 04:42 PM

After doing the combo update my macbook no longer can find my airport express.
It doesn't even see it when I scan using the Airport Utility.
I've repaired permissions, restarted, unplugged the AE for a while and still nothing.
I can connect with a hardline and on my neighbor's wireless network.
Any ideas?
Thanks.

Workaround here (http://blog.hep-cat.de/?p=4760#Macl).

Make sure you use the link to jump to English Version or go to the bottom of the page.

This is also discussed at Apple Discussions (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2106968&start=90&tstart=0).

avidmacuser

Aug 8, 2009, 04:46 PM

I disagree that Snow Leopard is not a major bug fix, but I do agree its a 64bit overhaul.
However, PowerMac G5s and iMac G5s were sold by Apple under a marketing spin that they were 64bit computers so I do think there's some room for outrage that the REAL 64bit update to Leopard will not be released for those PowerPC computers at all.

If Snow Leopard were an entirely new operating system, #1 it wouldn't be $29 because Apple would lose money on it, #2 it wouldn't be called Snow Leopard.

It just amazes me that Intel users are so adamant that Apple abandon $2000-$4000 computers 2-3 years old when Apple has never done such a thing ever in its history before. Leopard was sold to people with computers manufactured in 2001 and 2002! That's like 6-7 years!

Snow Leopard is an outrage because it is a complete break from how Apple treated its customers for decades. It's just that simple.

And I'm going to stop ranting about it, I think I've made my points.

I'm now more concerned about this 10.5.8 MAIL problem actually.
Has anybody else had this issue? I don't want to update anymore machines until I know more.

No problems with attaching jpg's to new email messages under 10.5.8

AppleMatt

Aug 8, 2009, 05:47 PM

Did you do the combo update or the Software Update smaller version?

Geez, now I'm scared to update more machines.
I've only done 2 so far, but did not test email yet.

I'd like to hear lots more about this before I update another machine. :(

I always do the combo updates myself, seems to be more glitch free.

Software Update, stopped using Combo updates years ago because I've seen nothing to suggest it's anything other than a placebo.

I've solved the problem; I (force) quit Mail, resarted, rebuilt each individual mailbox and it now attaches files correctly. To be honest, I've had the same Mail database since 10.2 and it's always been quite flaky. I wouldn't take my isolated incident too heavily; for me using Mail is more like just tricking it into staying responsive long enough to actually email someone.

I think for a majority of us the update has gone smoothly, people tend to post only when things have gone badly. IMHO I wouldn't fret too much about updating...especially if you're going the safe route and doing the Combo Update ;)

Agreed. I've not had one issue caused by any software or firmware update to any of my Apple hardware (iPhone, iPods, AppleTV, computers etc.) nor software (you name it) since I first used a Performa 630.

I now believe this problem occurred coincidentally with the 10.5.8 update, as no-one else has reported it.

Do file permissions have anything to do with security? If so, might a fitting analogy be that if I owned a car that had keys floating around elsewhere, I'd be told to ignore it and be assured that my car would still drive normally? Or another perhaps that even though other family members are supposed to have working keys for the same family car, some of them may not be able to open the doors for it?

Just curious if the analogy fits so I can better understand what's happening. ;)

You're definitely along the right lines, but this kind of issue would rarely crop up in day to day usage. Two reasons:
- Your files (i.e. anything in your Home directory) aren't affected by the Repair Permissions script in Disk Utility as it cannot 'enter' your Home directory. Therefore any errors won't affect, for example, banking details.doc and won't increase the likelihood of someone accessing it against your will.
- Permissions issues tend to be unpredictable problems. An example might be a preference pane crashing; it might want to read a configuration file when it loads but corrupt permissions on the configuration file mean it isn't allowed. The programmer didn't account for this possibility and down the preference pane goes. The fix is relatively simple; correct the permissions or recreate the file. Obviously there are wider security issues in this example, but as for 'get in and drive away', it's not a great concern.

AppleMatt

jw74

Aug 8, 2009, 06:01 PM

So my Airport Express showed up and was working fine and now it's gone again. This is ridiculous.
People seem to be having a problem with slow connection speeds. Is anyone having a problem similar to mine?

HyperZboy

Aug 8, 2009, 06:50 PM

Software Update, stopped using Combo updates years ago because I've seen nothing to suggest it's anything other than a placebo.

I've solved the problem; I (force) quit Mail, resarted, rebuilt each individual mailbox and it now attaches files correctly. To be honest, I've had the same Mail database since 10.2 and it's always been quite flaky. I wouldn't take my isolated incident too heavily; for me using Mail is more like just tricking it into staying responsive long enough to actually email someone.

Agreed. I've not had one issue caused by any software or firmware update to any of my Apple hardware (iPhone, iPods, AppleTV, computers etc.) nor software (you name it) since I first used a Performa 630.

I now believe this problem occurred coincidentally with the 10.5.8 update, as no-one else has reported it.

For what its worth, I've RARELY EVER done anything but a COMBO SYSTEM UPDATE.
And I've also rarely had anything like what you had happen either.
I'm not saying you're wrong or that its not a placebo, I really don't know, but lots of people suggest a combo update is better, and the one time I had a problem, the combo update solved it.

I also have an old MAIL database, mine goes back to 10.2, so I could also be susceptible to this problem.

By the way, my first Mac was a Mac LC III with an Apple ][e card in it, then later a PowerPC upgrade card instead of the ][e card! It's amazing that Macs used to last more than 2-3 years.
What a concept. The PC-Switchers just don't understand that and it seems even the Intel Mac people have forgotten history with regards to this Snow Leopard / PowerPC debate.

Think us PowerPC users will get CoreDuo PCI cards for our G5s? Not likely. LOL

bed

Aug 8, 2009, 06:54 PM

It's basically an optimized version of Leopard for Intel Macs with major BUG FIXES for just $29.

What major bugs are in Leopard that are fixed in Snow Leopard?

dmmcintyre3

Aug 8, 2009, 07:52 PM

Think us PowerPC users will get CoreDuo PCI cards for our G5s? Not likely. LOL

Or our PowerBooks. But I do not think PCMCIA would be fast enough for a core 2 duo

macintoshtoffy

Aug 8, 2009, 08:01 PM

Software Update, stopped using Combo updates years ago because I've seen nothing to suggest it's anything other than a placebo.

I tend to use Combo updates because if I do a clean install of Mac OS X - I like having the update on hand. Although sometimes it is placebo, I've never liked the idea of partially replacing something; I always get the feeling that something could possibly go wrong in the process. I'd sooner do a complete replace than a partial - then again, maybe I'm paranoid.

I've solved the problem; I (force) quit Mail, resarted, rebuilt each individual mailbox and it now attaches files correctly. To be honest, I've had the same Mail database since 10.2 and it's always been quite flaky. I wouldn't take my isolated incident too heavily; for me using Mail is more like just tricking it into staying responsive long enough to actually email someone.

I've given up on Mail.app (or any locally run mail application) long ago given that Gmail is at the point the requirement to run mail.app has gone - couple that with the drop in price of mobile internet (I tether my el-cheapo phone to my laptop) - its easy to get what you need on the go these days.

I also don't like the idea of having to back up yet another thing; I save all my stuff on a thumb drive, so thats no problems but I'd sooner the mail get stored on a server which is accessible anywhere I am.

Burnsey

Aug 8, 2009, 08:04 PM

Chase R

Aug 8, 2009, 08:21 PM

Leopard over time for me has become really slow. Despite having loads of ram, it takes forever to boot up, and launching two applications at once leads to the icons both just bouncing there endlessly. I hope they fix all of this with Snow Leopard and I'm not going to bother downloading this update.

Download OnyX and clean out your system. Clean all the catches and repair permissions. If that doesn't work, sounds like a HDD problem.

avidmacuser

Aug 8, 2009, 11:04 PM

Software Update, stopped using Combo updates years ago because I've seen nothing to suggest it's anything other than a placebo.

I've solved the problem; I (force) quit Mail, resarted, rebuilt each individual mailbox and it now attaches files correctly. To be honest, I've had the same Mail database since 10.2 and it's always been quite flaky. I wouldn't take my isolated incident too heavily; for me using Mail is more like just tricking it into staying responsive long enough to actually email someone.

Agreed. I've not had one issue caused by any software or firmware update to any of my Apple hardware (iPhone, iPods, AppleTV, computers etc.) nor software (you name it) since I first used a Performa 630.

I now believe this problem occurred coincidentally with the 10.5.8 update, as no-one else has reported it.

You're definitely along the right lines, but this kind of issue would rarely crop up in day to day usage. Two reasons:
- Your files (i.e. anything in your Home directory) aren't affected by the Repair Permissions script in Disk Utility as it cannot 'enter' your Home directory. Therefore any errors won't affect, for example, banking details.doc and won't increase the likelihood of someone accessing it against your will.
- Permissions issues tend to be unpredictable problems. An example might be a preference pane crashing; it might want to read a configuration file when it loads but corrupt permissions on the configuration file mean it isn't allowed. The programmer didn't account for this possibility and down the preference pane goes. The fix is relatively simple; correct the permissions or recreate the file. Obviously there are wider security issues in this example, but as for 'get in and drive away', it's not a great concern.

AppleMatt

Thanks for shedding some light on that. Best wishes to all.

HyperZboy

Aug 9, 2009, 04:41 AM

Ok, I attempted to do a 10.5.8 COMBO UPDATE on a Leopard Minimum System Requirement type system, a PowerMac G4 867MHz

I'm stuck at "Install Time 2 Minutes Remaining"

15 minutes have gone by, should I give up?

Any suggestions?

gusious

Aug 9, 2009, 04:42 AM

HyperZboy

Aug 9, 2009, 04:59 AM

I say wait a little bit. What do you have to loose?

Well I have nothing to lose really since its not like a mission critical type computer, just a backup, and I guess I could clone it back to health.

But nonetheless the amount of time was quite incredible on the 10.5.8 update.

Wow, it finally finished just as I was about to give up hope.

Double boot as expected. Stuck at the spinning wheel now for a long time.

Ok, this machine appears to be officially TOASTED.

Thank You Apple!

Although I'm still not giving up on my PowerPC Snow leopard arguments, so don't worry Intel people!

I'm like Arnold, I'll be BACK! LOL

If this were a Mac I really had to rely on, I wouldn't be joking.

Yes, I'm now holding the power button down and forcing the Mac to turn off.

PS: The machine will STILL BOOT TIGER, but NOT 10.5.8 LEOPARD! LMAO

PPS: The installer said it finished properly, there were no anomalies other than the extended install time.

I'm going to try again.

UPDATE: After turning the Mac OFF after the failed boot of MacOS 10.5.8, the PowerMac G4 867 appears to now work again, go figure. I have no idea why.

G4 WARNING... If you have large hard drives in your older Mac, 10.5.8 will re-write the drivers and remove support for hard drives larger than 128GB on older Macs even if you've previously installed drivers for those large drives! Beware!

The importance of this warning is that your hard drive could be corrupted by this and could cause you to lose EVERYTHING!

I didn't lose anything by the way, but after re-installing the driver, my G4 will probably be indexing for hours! LOL

Chundles

Aug 9, 2009, 05:16 AM

Finishing the install took an age as did the first reboot (10 minutes or more) but now everything is tickety boo.

As usual I can't tell any difference.

ITASOR

Aug 9, 2009, 09:34 AM

jw74

Aug 9, 2009, 10:05 AM

weckart

Aug 9, 2009, 11:23 AM

I bought the bullet and grabbed it first thing... no problems here.

But I always do the repair permissions and check the disc thing first.

There is a double boot, and it takes awhile (just enough to make you nervous) but it will come alive eventually.

:apple:

P.S. I've noticed here, on the Apple forums, and almost everywhere that portables ALWAYS have more complaints with updates than desktops. With all the banging around the drive takes, ALWAYS make sure you verify the drive and repair permissions first. Crucial.Most people who have problems had drives with filesystem probs.

Why do people still persist with this 'repair permissions first' nonsense before installing updates?

When you install an update it requires your administrator password. That is because all updates are installed in administrator mode, thus overriding every single permission they meet along the way.

So why 'repair' permissions first?

Helmigurt

Aug 9, 2009, 11:24 AM

Interesting. I think my iMac had the extended startup issue because i really wondered why my macbook CE had so much faster startup times than my iMac with similar specs. After updating both macs my macbook is the same as always but the imac is considerably faster. Nice one! :)

kingofsanda

Aug 9, 2009, 01:41 PM

This is great I can't wait to get it.

HyperZboy

Aug 9, 2009, 01:55 PM

Why do people still persist with this 'repair permissions first' nonsense before installing updates?

When you install an update it requires your administrator password. That is because all updates are installed in administrator mode, thus overriding every single permission they meet along the way.

So why 'repair' permissions first?

That's a good point.

Personally, I always repair disk permissions AFTER an installation.

But, in Leopard, permissions are never correctly repaired, even with 10.5.8. :(

MagnusVonMagnum

Aug 9, 2009, 03:51 PM

I know there are a bunch of people here that have a problem with their Bluetooth Mighty Mouse freezing up every so often. In 10.5.7, just opening up the Bluetooth preferences caused the mouse to start working again (without the need to disconnect and reconnect to the mouse).

I had this problem multiple times a day. Since 10.5.8 it hasn't happened since!

I have a problem on my MBP with the mouse and/or keyboard freezing up anywhere from a few seconds to a minute or two after waking it from sleep. It'll literally work fine sometimes for a minute and then the mouse just freezes. Most of the time if I unplug the hub that has the external keyboard and mouse connected to it and plug it back in they'll start working again until the next time I put it to sleep. NO UPDATE OF LEOPARD has addressed or fixed this problem including 10.5.8. I've sent them a bug report. They don't care. The laptop's own keyboard and trackpad don't have this problem, just external ones. And since they don't provide enough ports on one side, I have to use a hub (i.e. the hub might be related to the problem somehow, but it shouldn't happen regardless).

AppleMatt

Aug 9, 2009, 05:34 PM

EXERCISES IN FUTILITY PART 2: REPAIRING PERMISSIONS IS USELESS
http://unsanity.org/archives/000410.php

AppleMatt

dyn

Aug 9, 2009, 06:07 PM

8< some images

You should tell that to Microsoft, Sun and other companies that use "x64" to cover both Intel and AMD systems.

People also use the term "bloodthinners" as do doctors and companies. This however is not a correct term because it does not exist, there is no such thing as something that makes your blood thinner. The proper term for this would be anticoagulentia and stops your blood from clotting. Just because some people use that term doesn't mean it's correct. Especially if their companies, marketing is not a department that gets it right.

Will a 32-bit program run on an x64 in long mode? No.

Will an x64 program run on an x86, or an x64 in 32-bit mode? No.

They are two different architectures which are not binary compatible.

LOL, you're making a big fool out of yourself right now because you now show that the diagram you used is even more flawed. If you want to go that way fine but then you also need to make a difference between x86 16 bit as we had with the 386 and you have to split up PowerPC since that came in 32 and 64 bit as did SPARC ;)

Apart from that you're just plain wrong. Intel has made an instruction set and an architecture called x86. They have evolved it from the 8086 to 286, 384, 486 up to the Core 2 Duo cpu's we now know. The instruction set has been changed, they now use the one from the 386 or the 486 (also one of the reasons why the linux kernel dropped the 386 support). It's the exact same architecture we have had for years but it only evolved into something that is able to run 64 bit stuff. Also, the x86-64 cpu's that are out there can run 32 AND 64 bit software very nicely. That's what Leopard does (Leopard is 32 bit and has the ability to run 64 bit software on top of that) and what Snow Leopard will continue (will be 64 bit with the ability to run 32 bit software on top of that). Even Windows Vista and Windows 7 are able to do both. Why? Because the Intel and AMD cpu's support x86-64 since it's just a superset to x86. That's also the reason why x86-64 is NOT a different architecture!

According to ??

Nearly everyone out there although some will use x64 which is wrong since that would imply it's a different architecture which it is not (it's an extension to x86 so x86-64 is the proper term).

Yes it does. It's no longer sold, but a version of XP for Itanium was released.

Ah, missed that one. Can see why they don't sell it anymore, it's not something you'd put on an Itanium machine.

It's NOT OLD TECHNOLOGY! Please, people.
Stop with this PowerPC is ancient slow technology.
Some of these machines were still sold less than 3 years ago.

PowerPC itself isn't old, IBM still uses it and is still actively developing new PowerPC cpu's and machines. Whatever Apple used is old, 3 years or even older to be more precise.

My G5s are faster than many of the first generation Intel Macs!

At a couple of things but the overall speed is a lot lower then the Intel Macs. The speed gains you have are not very spectacular since it makes a differences in seconds. You need to think in the amount of time it takes when you sneeze. Besides that, Leopard on those 3 year old (or even older) PowerPC Macs is slow as hell, not something you want.

Obviously, all the Intel people are tired of the PowerPC whining because they don't care and want their Intel Mac to run better.

When it comes down to performance I don't care what architecture my machines uses. SPARC64 is fine, x86 or x86-64 is great too and if PowerPC is the way to go then that'll do. The only thing I care about right now is the ability for me to use virtualisation on my Mac. That has become a possibility with the change to Intel's x86. If they were to switch to another architecture I need to find a solution, something like a dedicated x86 machine that runs something like ESXi 4.0.
The PowerPC stuff Apple used is now 3 years old, in 3 years a lot has happened on the cpu side. For example, 64 bit has become normal, every cpu out there has the 64 bit extension and there are 64 bit OS's for x86. Also speed has increased greatly due to multicore cpu's (as in octocore machines like the Mac Pro). You'd be a complete idiot if you ignored that development and still argued that the 3 year old PPC G5 cpu you have is still faster because it isn't. It's not about whining about old technology, it's about being real. PowerPC served us fine back then and now it's Intels turn. Most people really don't care, they just want something that works and that is also the biggest selling point of a Mac I have been hearing from the Mac people for years. In Dutch we know something called "de wet van de remmende voorsprong" (translated into English) (http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=y&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnl.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWet_van_de_remmende_voorsprong&sl=nl&tl=en&history_state0=). It means that you need to keep moving forward and not stop and relax because if you do then someone else will take the lead and make you obsolete. You either go bankrupt in that situation or you need to invest enormous amounts of money to get back in the race (a lot more then it would have been if you had stayed on top).

Yet only some of us are getting the Snow Leopard bug fixes and there are still PowerPC problems with 10.5.8
There are still a lot of things that need to be fixed for the Intel people as well. I've seen a lot of people still complain about certain aspects as you see with every update and every new OS X version. There will always be people who are disappointed because something still isn't working or something stopped working. That's unfortunately one of the biggest downsides to IT (both hardware and software).

For example, I still have problems with AFP on my Intel Macs though smb works great so I keep on using smb on my network (the problem being it does not seem to understand permissions whatsoever, if anyone has a solution do not hesitate, just scream!). It also has the added bonus of being crossplatform so Solaris, FreeBSD and Ubuntu can also get to my shared files and folders. With AFP I have to mess around with AppleTalk and such. Also spotted a problem regarding USB, one of the USB hubs I attached to my Mac mini 2009 dropped from usb2.0 to usb1.1. I had to unplug and plug it back in to get it back up to usb2.0 speeds. In the changelog they mention something about reliability fixes regarding USB so I think this might be caused by the update. I hope and believe it was just a "one time" thing which won't happen again.

When Leopard was released, it supported a Mac released in July, 2001!
Not really. It only supported the ones that could meet the system requirements and that ruled out a lot of the old Macs. The only ones left were the highend models with the highend graphics cards. I rather have it completely killed instead of supporting half the devices, that's just lame. You get all excited you can use Leopard and then you read the system requirements and then reality sinks in and you realize you can't install it because your Mac does not meet the system requirements. Yeah, great support for those old Macs...

I can't seem to attach pictures to emails since I applied the 10.5.8 update (neither dragging them in nor selecting them in the file open dialog). Is anyone else seeing this problem?

I tried adding pics using the photobrowser, it seems that it can add pics but it just doesn't do anything when you release the mouse button. Using the "attach" button does the same thing. Unfortunately this also happens with pdf files :( I do have some mailbundles installed but removing them does not resolve the problem. Big problem if you can't attach anything to your mail. Rebuilding Mail did not resolve it, deleting nearly everything but the bundles did not resolve it, so I tried deleting every plist file there was in ~/Library/Preferences for Mail and then start from scratch (luckily it still remembered the signatures, messages, todo's and notes) and that resolved the problem finally!

-js-

Aug 9, 2009, 06:53 PM

Well I have nothing to lose really since its not like a mission critical type computer, just a backup, and I guess I could clone it back to health.

But nonetheless the amount of time was quite incredible on the 10.5.8 update.

Wow, it finally finished just as I was about to give up hope.

Double boot as expected. Stuck at the spinning wheel now for a long time.

Ok, this machine appears to be officially TOASTED.

Thank You Apple!

Although I'm still not giving up on my PowerPC Snow leopard arguments, so don't worry Intel people!

I'm like Arnold, I'll be BACK! LOL

If this were a Mac I really had to rely on, I wouldn't be joking.

Yes, I'm now holding the power button down and forcing the Mac to turn off.

PS: The machine will STILL BOOT TIGER, but NOT 10.5.8 LEOPARD! LMAO

PPS: The installer said it finished properly, there were no anomalies other than the extended install time.

I'm going to try again.

UPDATE: After turning the Mac OFF after the failed boot of MacOS 10.5.8, the PowerMac G4 867 appears to now work again, go figure. I have no idea why.

G4 WARNING... If you have large hard drives in your older Mac, 10.5.8 will re-write the drivers and remove support for hard drives larger than 128GB on older Macs even if you've previously installed drivers for those large drives! Beware!

The importance of this warning is that your hard drive could be corrupted by this and could cause you to lose EVERYTHING!

I didn't lose anything by the way, but after re-installing the driver, my G4 will probably be indexing for hours! LOL

First, thanks for the on topic post and the info.

Second, no thanks for the sarcasm against Apple! Is it really necessary?

Third, you should have an exact image of your hard drive before the update. Restore to that. If you don't have a copy of it, well then, I guess you just expect everything to always work and just reserve the right to get mad if it doesn't . . . ??? or what?

Finally, you should really be running Tiger on that G4. We have a G3 here in the control room where I work, and it's running Tiger and has no issues, other than just being slow due to a slow clock speed / processor. So, if you don't have an image of your drive, take this opportunity to switch back to Tiger.

Just thought I'd mention that I have had no Mail issues. Can attach files just fine. Just did a test of this.

AidenShaw

Aug 9, 2009, 07:47 PM

Apart from that you're just plain wrong. Intel has made an instruction set and an architecture called x86.

Well, I think that the majority of computer professionals would consider x86 and x64 to be distinct architectures, and not minor variants of one architecture.

The x64 architecture's "32-bit compatibility mode" isn't proof that it's only one architecture.

In 1977 the new 32-bit VAX from Digital came out to replace the aging 16-bit PDP-11 line. To ease the transition, it had a hardware "compatibility mode" that would execute unprivileged 16-bit PDP-11 binaries. In another parallel, many of the PDP-11 instructions were identical to VAX instructions (but the VAX had additional ones - the PDP had ADD 16-bit, ADD 8-bit - the VAX had ADD 32-bit, ADD 16-bit, ADD 8-bit).

I don't think anyone will argue that the VAX never existed.

And I don't see any need for an epic back and forth on x64. Let's agree to disagree on its existence.

CQd44

Aug 9, 2009, 07:50 PM

I'm not even sure what x64 offers besides support for more memory.

MagnusVonMagnum

Aug 9, 2009, 09:47 PM

At a couple of things but the overall speed is a lot lower then the Intel Macs.

You cannot simply lump processor types together as one or the other. You actually have to look at their capability and configuration. A G5 Quad is a lot faster than many lower-end Intel machines even today.

The speed gains you have are not very spectacular since it makes a differences in seconds. You need to think in the amount of time it takes when you sneeze. Besides that, Leopard on those 3 year old (or even older) PowerPC Macs is slow as hell, not something you want.

You get all excited you can use Leopard and then you read the system requirements and then reality sinks in and you realize you can't install it because your Mac does not meet the system requirements. Yeah, great support for those old Macs...

Eh? Leopard installed just fine on my 2001 era PowerMac G4 Digital Audio with minimal effort. I'm using it right now on it and it's anything but slow. In fact, it feels just like my less than one year old MBP for most OS operations and even most browsing, etc. Not everything needs a ton of CPU power, you know. And the thing about PowerMacs (be they G4 or G5) is that they are expandable machines. I easily swapped the dual 553MHz CPUs for a 1.8GHz 7448 G4 (released in the last 2 years). I could have gotten a 2GHz model or a dual 1.8GHz model for a bit more. I easily swapped its ATI Rage 128 for an ATI 9800 Pro. It went from terribly slow in Leopard to extremely quick in Leopard in just a few minutes. The ATI card has full Core Image support along with Quartz Extreme. Games made just 3 years ago run fine on it (again, the machine is from 2001, barely past OS9 and in fact, this machine will even boot OS9 still; I have OS9, Tiger and Leopard all available). The point is don't tell people that PPC machines are "slow as hell in Leopard" when you don't have a clue about them. Yeah, it was slow as hell with a 553Mhz CPU an an unsupported GPU, but with a few upgrades it's perfectly fine in Leopard. Snow Leopard is more efficient and would have run better yet if Apple hadn't ditched PPC support.

AidenShaw

Aug 10, 2009, 12:15 AM

I'm not even sure what x64 offers besides support for more memory.

For performance, it offers twice as many registers. For integers, there are 16 registers instead of 8. Effectively, though, this is much better than it sounds because 3 registers are usually dedicated. This means that an x86 has 5 "free" registers, and x64 has 13 "free" registers.

This means that the compiler has a better opportunity to keep data and addresses in the extremely fast registers, and doesn't have to use the much slower memory as often.

x64 is also a cleaner, newer architecture. Some old x86 crap is gone, but more important it guarantees a certain minimum level of hardware features. x64 has at least SSE3, and NX. If you're running 64-bit, you can depend on those features.

There's also the possibility of eliminating x86 compatibility mode in the future. In 3 to 5 years, 32-bit compatibility may be irrelevant, and the chip designers can jettision the whole compatibility layer and use those transistors for the benefit of the many.

CQd44

Aug 10, 2009, 12:50 AM

For performance, it offers twice as many registers. For integers, there are 16 registers instead of 8. Effectively, though, this is much better than it sounds because 3 registers are usually dedicated. This means that an x86 has 5 "free" registers, and x64 has 13 "free" registers.

This means that the compiler has a better opportunity to keep data and addresses in the extremely fast registers, and doesn't have to use the much slower memory as often.

x64 is also a cleaner, newer architecture. Some old x86 crap is gone, but more important it guarantees a certain minimum level of hardware features. x64 has at least SSE3, and NX. If you're running 64-bit, you can depend on those features.

There's also the possibility of eliminating x86 compatibility mode in the future. In 3 to 5 years, 32-bit compatibility may be irrelevant, and the chip designers can jettision the whole compatibility layer and use those transistors for the benefit of the many.

Ahh. Thank you for this! I could never get a clear answer on *why* x64 is superior. But now I have!

I still don't notice a whole lot of a difference between running 64 bit applications vs 32 bit ones. Perhaps they're not being programmed/compiled to the fullest?

HyperZboy

Aug 10, 2009, 02:07 AM

First, thanks for the on topic post and the info.

Second, no thanks for the sarcasm against Apple! Is it really necessary?

Third, you should have an exact image of your hard drive before the update. Restore to that. If you don't have a copy of it, well then, I guess you just expect everything to always work and just reserve the right to get mad if it doesn't . . . ??? or what?

Finally, you should really be running Tiger on that G4. We have a G3 here in the control room where I work, and it's running Tiger and has no issues, other than just being slow due to a slow clock speed / processor. So, if you don't have an image of your drive, take this opportunity to switch back to Tiger.

Please don't confuse my Snow Leopard on PowerPC posts with my 10.5.8 posts.
And my previous 10.5.8 problem post was an "As it happened post", so obviously I was mad and frustrated initially before the problem was solved. Hey that's life.

Furthermore, I'm definitely NOT arguing that Apple support an 867MHz G4 with Snow Leopard.
I'm just stating my installation issues with Leopard on the oldest Leopard supported Mac.
And yes that was released in July 2001 and is still technically certified by Apple to run Leopard and does so surprisingly well, but with the same bloat that affects all Leopard installations. I even installed Leopard on a 450MHz Sawtooth once, but that was so very sloooooooow.

My Snow Leopard/PowerPC argument mainly centers around late model iMac G5s and PowerMac G5s, the later of which are quite expandable and upgradable machines and both are faster than many low-end first generation Intel Macs. In fact, PowerMac G5s could have a better chance of supporting OpenCL than every Intel graphics Mac ever made since many had PCI Express slots.
The Megahertz Myth has never been denounced by Steve Jobs even since the Intel Switch.
Many G5s at lower MHz are faster than the early Intel Macs, even some at higher clock speeds.
If anything Intel has proven The Megahertz Myth to be true by making Intel CPU's more RISC-like and PowerPC-like.

This perception that PowerPC is ancient tech really needs to be put to bed. It's just not true.
Obviously, a $4000 machine 3 years old is better than a sub-$1000 machine bought 1-2 years ago. And lets not forget, Mac users tend to keep computers longer than 3 years and Apple has historically supported machines for MUCH LONGER than 3 years.

Finally, I'm sure all the Intel people would like me to stop whining about Snow Leopard, but don't hold your breath. I think Apple is making a mistake and breaking a 25 year tradition of support of 2-3 yr old machines and I intend to point it out everywhere I can when a story related to it comes up. Sorry.

PS: So far, no more 10.5.8 update problems on any other Macs, Intel or PowerPC, well except the ridiculous Disk Permissions thing that Apple never seems to fix.
What good is Disk Permissions, if you can't really even see what's even being fixed and even the things that supposedly are getting fixed, are STILL never being fixed? It's just ridiculous. I don't understand why they can't fix it. I defeats the purpose of having Disk Permissions in the first place.

xUKHCx

Aug 10, 2009, 03:04 AM

OK, any further posts about Snow Leopard or PPC vs Intel will be removed.

AppleMatt

Aug 10, 2009, 04:28 AM

OK, any further posts about Snow Leopard or PPC vs Intel will be removed.

It's hard to sound sincere in a post, but thank-you. :)

Just in-case it got lost in the mix, someone else reported after upgrading to 10.5.8 they too couldn't attach files to Mail (which they have now fixed). So it might be worth making that your first port of call after running the update if you haven't so far.

AppleMatt

Povilas

Aug 10, 2009, 05:08 AM

What's strange about IO80211Family.kext in the 10.5.8 that it's version is 2.1.6 and size 4.9 MB. In the 10.5.7 it's also version 2.1.6, but size is 4.5 MB. The question is how can thy make changes to the driver that it's size changes, but version number remains the same?

mckyvlle

Aug 10, 2009, 06:07 AM

Oh nice! After updating to 10.5.8, AirPort connects automatically to 802.1X WPA2-Enterprise automatically! No more toggling AirPort to get an IP address. :cool:

Kat King123

Aug 10, 2009, 06:37 AM

had some problems about 3 weeks after updating to 10.5.7 my wifi kept dropping on my cheap 2wire router:D it seems to have fix it now ive been connected for about 2 days straight now no problems. once again apple you seem to have pulled through:)

Povilas

Aug 10, 2009, 07:26 AM

One more thing. I didn't notice this in 10.5.7.

Tumbleweed666

Aug 10, 2009, 07:56 AM

Sdahe

Aug 10, 2009, 10:49 AM

rev316

Aug 10, 2009, 12:08 PM

It messed up my Santa Rosa laptop pretty good.

Screen flickers on and off, KP'd once.

Go Apple!

Tumbleweed666

Aug 10, 2009, 01:30 PM

I saw there is a new update for Mac OS X and I've been reading many complains about this new update. Is your mac acting wierd with this update or not?...

No.
You will always read about problems with updates because few people will post to say 'hey I just downloaded a new release and its working fine. How many reports of problems have you read, a few dozen? how many people do you think upgraded? Probably tens of thousands at a minimum, maybe hundreds of thousands.
Plus of course, as per the person with the email problem who posted here, then later said 'oh no its wasnt that I fixed it, it was just a coincidence I had upgraded to 10.5.8', now people are posting here 'I got the email problem' as if its an acknowledged fact!

Razeus

Aug 10, 2009, 01:34 PM

No.
You will always read about problems with updates because few people will post to say 'hey I just downloaded a new release and its working fine. How many reports of problems have you read, a few dozen? how many people do you think upgraded? Probably tens of thousands at a minimum, maybe hundreds of thousands.
Plus of course, as per the person with the email problem who posted here, then later said 'oh no its wasnt that I fixed it, it was just a coincidence I had upgraded to 10.5.8', now people are posting here 'I got the email problem' as if its an acknowledged fact!

Plus the fact the people go looking for things that aren't there. I've never had an issue with an update. I've never been subjected to something breaking because I've updated.

kavlo26

Aug 10, 2009, 02:29 PM

I saw there is a new update for Mac OS X and I've been reading many complains about this new update. Is your mac acting wierd with this upadate or not?...

I started downloading it put I stoped it... It says Mac OS X Update: Partially downloaded (16%). Where is this 16% located in my HD?

Discuss!!!

Well, my wifi goes at 1/4th the speed when on battery. My ping to the router increased by 900%. Fine when the power cord is connected and ping is 0.5ms. Running on Macbook 4,1. White, 2.4ghz. And this happened after the update. Not entirely sure which macbooks are getting these issues.

Macinposh

Aug 10, 2009, 02:47 PM

MB 5.1 : Things seem otherwise ok but there is weird,weak flickering on the screen now when the computer goes to half sleep (the semi dark screen.)
It is particulary visible in the light areas of the screen.

Anoying.

Hugh

Aug 10, 2009, 04:06 PM

I've updated to 10.5.8 (Combo Update) and so far I'm not having any problems. I know it's mostly me, but Safari seems to work better on this site. :/

Hugh

EDIT: I forgot to mention what machine I have it installed on. I have it installed on a Late 2007 MacBook.

liam5150

Aug 10, 2009, 06:21 PM

everything is super laggy and slow after this install. Am I the only one?

Mmmmmh, no. Everything is even snappier and fluid than it used to be. :D

Maybe you should try to run the maintenance scripts
bash$ sudo periodic daily weekly monthly

And you could also delete your cachés under ~/Library/Caches (just delete everything inside this folder)

Good luck. :)

HyperZboy

Aug 11, 2009, 02:11 PM

Safari seems to actually be crashing more since 10.5.8. :(

I've filed now at least 4 bug reports. Seems to be allergic to Facebook & some banking sites. I can understand some Safari incompatibilities that are site specific, but the crashing thing?

Wonderful.

10.5.9 soon I hope?

Obviously I'm not getting the SnowLeopard bug fixes on my PowerPC Macs, so I sure hope this is soon fixed. It's very annoying to be doing something, either banking or Facebook, and have Safari just spinning beachball, then quit.

Do something Apple please.

AJ1BostonMASS

Aug 12, 2009, 12:01 AM

this sucks.

with .8 my 1st for f buttons dont work. and ical keeps crashing Everything I click also has this annoying black box around it.

Anyone know how I can go down to .7?

Chundles

Aug 12, 2009, 12:21 AM

this sucks.

with .8 my 1st for f buttons dont work. and ical keeps crashing Everything I click also has this annoying black box around it.

Anyone know how I can go down to .7?

You have VoiceOver switched on.

Nothing to do with 10.5.8

MorphingDragon

Aug 12, 2009, 12:29 AM

10.5.8 boots faster than any other Fully Fledged Computer OS i know of.
Its near express gate speeds. Go Apple GO!

AJ1BostonMASS

Aug 12, 2009, 01:37 AM

You have VoiceOver switched on.

Nothing to do with 10.5.8

Alright well how do I get it off and stop ical from crashing?

Also will that have something to do with my function keys not working?

EDIT: Ah I found it thank you. That fixed it.
How did you know thats what it was?

MorphingDragon

Aug 12, 2009, 01:41 AM

Alright well how do I get it off and stop ical from crashing?

Also will that have something to do with my function keys not working?

Still got your Mac OSX disks?

Download Pacifist, use it to reinstall iCal and download the Combo Update.

AJ1BostonMASS

Aug 12, 2009, 01:55 AM

Still got your Mac OSX disks?

Download Pacifist, use it to reinstall iCal and download the Combo Update.

I got it all to work. I guess it was voice over. I dont know how it would effect it on .8 but not any other updates.
Thanks though!

MorphingDragon

Aug 12, 2009, 01:57 AM

I got it all to work. I guess it was voice over. I dont know how it would effect it on .8 but not any other updates.
Thanks though!

Lol :D

rtheb

Aug 12, 2009, 06:57 AM

Workaround here (http://blog.hep-cat.de/?p=4760#Macl).

Make sure you use the link to jump to English Version or go to the bottom of the page.

This is also discussed at Apple Discussions (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2106968&start=90&tstart=0).

THIS IS FIXED

Apple released AirPort Client Update for MacBook and MacBook Pro here (http://support.apple.com/downloads/AirPort_Client_Update_for_MacBook_and_MacBook_Pro).

To reverse the Workaround mentioned in quoted message above go here (http://blog.hep-cat.de/?p=4920#Revert).

cosrocket

Aug 13, 2009, 04:49 PM

Has anyone had this problem since updating to OS X 10.5.8? Since I did the update on my iMac whenever I restart my display resets to full brightness which is way too bright for me. Is there a fix in the works?

Eric S.

Aug 14, 2009, 09:48 AM

It messed up my Santa Rosa laptop pretty good.

Screen flickers on and off, KP'd once.

Go Apple!

No problems at all on my Santa Rosa Macbook, so far.

DELLsFan

Aug 15, 2009, 10:40 AM

How big is this update?

Big enough to temporarily foobar some Hackintosh installs. :p I think some of the geeks at Apple just look for subtle ways to challenge the DELL Mini community. :p

ThingM

Aug 16, 2009, 01:26 PM

celticpride678

Aug 16, 2009, 01:29 PM

Im gonna wait for 10.5.9......

cause it will be THE LAST update for leopard!

10.5.8 not a big change from 10.5.7.

gonna stick with 10.5.7 for now..... don't have time to download another update. busy working on my aperture photos and downloading songs;)

How do you know there will be a 10.5.9? If there is, it might not even be the final update to Leopard due to no PPC support in Snow Leopard. Apple needs to maintain an OS that some users will be on forever.

MagnusVonMagnum

Aug 16, 2009, 03:30 PM

How do you know there will be a 10.5.9? If there is, it might not even be the final update to Leopard due to no PPC support in Snow Leopard. Apple needs to maintain an OS that some users will be on forever.

If there's not $$$ in it for Apple, they aren't going to maintain squat. They couldn't care less about users that bought a Mac over 3 years ago. They want you to buy a new Mac now and every year for that matter. Have you noticed the latest Macbooks have hardware acceleration even in Leopard for H264 video decoding? My MBP is less than one year old. Why haven't they added support for it? It's because they don't care. Their attitude is if you want the newest features (even when they're simply software support in the OS), then buy the newest hardware from them, even if your computer is less than a year old (e.g. there's no reason the previous generation iPhones cannot capture video (hacked versions do it every day), but Apple limits that feature to ONLY the latest hardware to try and get you to upgrade. It's total BS, but they get away with it). It's that TIE between the OS and the hardware that keeps them making record profits even in the greatest recession since the Great Depression. Apple knows you don't want a Windows computer or you wouldn't be here (can you even imagine the response if Microsoft only provided DirectX video acceleration for SOME card makers but not others in order to drive up a sweet-heart profit deal between the two companies?) If anyone else tries to compete with their hardware, they sue them. Yeah, don't compete in a Capitalistic economy. Break anti-trust rules against tying two markets together in order to limit or eliminate competition instead and then cry that you're too small a potato for them to come after you while you sue even smaller potatoes that are attempting to compete against you. It's kind of like those new bank commercials where they take the toy car away and replace it with a paper cut-out citing small print about limited time offers. It's wrong but banks get away with it. What Apple does to increase profits is wrong, but they get away with it (of course the stock holders and fanatics love it and think it's SO RIGHT).

Most of the (admittedly minor by Apple themselves) "upgrades" in Snow Leopard could have been simply added to Leopard. But this allows them to charge every single Apple user in existence $29 for a minor change AND get those tight-pocketed PPC users to finally buy a new Mac from them in one foul swoop AND get them to think it's a great upgrade and CHEAP when in fact it's a minor change that should have been free, but now costs $29. It's like getting every Mac user in existence to buy a new mouse from them only without having to provide the actual mouse! And once a critical mass upgrades to Snow Leopard is achieved (which will happen VERY VERY quickly since we've convinced them that minor upgrade is so dirt CHEAP, but dollars add up for us quickly with dozens of MILLIONS of people sending us $29), ALL software developers will permanently dump Leopard like a bad habit and embrace those APIs and ensure regular Leopard is a distant memory. There will be no Universal Binary support for the new APIs in Snow Leopard and since most users will no longer be using regular Leopard anymore, there is no need to support regular Leopard. This thus ensures those PPC users have to buy a new Mac from us (they'll never give up their Mac software libraries to switch to Windows so their threats to switch are empty!)

To summarize, Apple gets $29 from EVERY Intel user out there (what's that, around 50 million Intel users? (based on Apple's own 75 million figure tripled after Intel with around 15-25 million before that) 50 million x $29 = $1450 million (over $1.4 BILLION in cold hard cash) for a minor upgrade and no hardware provided (just the same teams doing Leopard upgrades now getting paid for minor upgrades).

Now take the 10-15 million PPC users (who may or may not also own at least one Intel machine; I own one of each, for example) still hanging around and figure they'll be FORCED into buying a new Mac within a year or so and let's assume a rather smallish 20% profit margin (usually higher on higher models) and assume a mid-range point of $1500 between Macbooks, Mac Minis, iMacs and Mac Pros sold and they might expect up to an additional $10 BILLION in profits on top of whatever other sales they can normally expect from switchers, iPhone users, etc. etc. From a greedy perspective, it's absolutely brilliant! And most Mac users aren't even remotely aware of how much money such a "minor" upgrade is going to provide Apple while shedding dead weight (pesky PPC users that refuse to buy a new computer). Even if a small percentage defect to Windows or build a Hackintosh (their lawsuits against companies like Psystar keep too many people from defecting for fear the courts may take their computer away from them when they case is settled), they will still make a TON of money. Snow Leopard might be the single largest sweetheart deal in Apple's history for the rather paltry amount of work to get it (compared to major upgrades or the move to OS X in the first place). This is PURE PROFIT. I'd expect more record breaking quarters within the next year. Time to buy Apple stock again.

Yeah, keep that gravy train rolling Apple! Choo Choo! Mou-Lah!

Sing along with me now:

...When the gravy train comes rolling, for Steve, for Steve
...the golden coins keep flowing, for a new weave for Steve!
...the entire fortunes of the people will go and leave
...and fill up all those box cars...(low low voice) FOR OUR MAN STEVE!