Church of Scientology Warning

[seewhatisunseen]

Information that details what goes on behind the scenes at the Church of Scientology:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/time-behar.html This famous 1991 Time Magazine article critical of Scientology reveals how the "Church" is the equivalent of the mafia disguised as a religion. Oppose them and you are fair game for harassment and maybe even a frivolous lawsuit.

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/index.html Things they don't want you to know.

http://www.xenu-city.net/ How they occupy downtown Clearwater, and monitor the area with over 100 different video cameras.

http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/religion_and_spirituality/faiths_and_practices/scientology/opposing_views/ - a large list of Internet sites opposed to the cult.

[Phobophobia]

Information that details what goes on behind the scenes at the Church of Scientology:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/time-behar.html This famous 1991 Time Magazine article critical of Scientology reveals how the "Church" is the equivalent of the mafia disguised as a religion. Oppose them and you are fair game for harassment and maybe even a frivolous lawsuit.

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/index.html Things they don't want you to know.

http://www.xenu-city.net/ How they occupy downtown Clearwater, and monitor the area with over 100 different video cameras.

http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/religion_and_spirituality/faiths_and_practices/scientology/opposing_views/ - a large list of Internet sites opposed to the cult.


I would just like to first say that I am a active Scientologist, and I would just like to clear a couple things up.

1. We are not a cult in the sense that we do not brainwash you or force you to do anything. Seriously, you don't have to believe in any god or anything if you don't want to. It is all your choice, and the organization/religion is there to help people.

2. Some people seem to think it is a money scam, but it really isn't. Yes--the study materials for the religion cost money, but you are paying for more than just a book and the results are phenomenal.

3. The articles you linked to are really irrelevant. They seem suspicious, but their validity can't be proven, and I really can't see how the stuff in them would be of any use to Scientology in general. It is nice that you have an open mind, but if you really want to get the real scoop on the religion in general I suggest you go to one of the churches before you make up your mind.

I'm open to questions, but no flaming, plz.

;)

[takao]

according to german and austrian courts scientology is not a church and not allowed to claim that they are a church...
there were even a decision where the conclusion is that it is a "profit orientated company"

but they are allowed to called themselves "scientology-church association"

[abc123]

what do all churches (apart from the church of scientology) have in common?
they will help and include people regardless of their financial situation.

i don't mean to say that scientology has no good points but that money is what really sets it apart from other churches. my mum and i went and had a look around once just to see what it was all about. the girl that showed us around was really nice but it was all a bit too creepy for me (i find regular churches creepy also). she also spent a lot of time scoffing at modern medicine and drugs which was kind of awkward being that my mother is a doctor.
it certainly isn't for everyone but i don't see why people get so worked up opposing it.

[Phobophobia]

Takao: The IRS did a study and found that Scientology was a legit religion.
ABC: You don't need money to get help, the people working at the church will gladly explain everything, help you get started and give you some insight. Yes, it is a little creepy, (even for me), when I go to church. I am a relatively new member and I am still not completely used to it. The point is: things that are unfamiliar take time getting used to, and Scientology is here to help--not to do anything else.

[MacDawg]

Just for further reference...

http://www.xenu.net/

And I have researched and visted

Also read Hubbard's books:
Dianetics
Scientology
Self-Analysis

[Phobophobia]

Just for further reference...

http://www.xenu.net/

And I have researched and visted

Also read Hubbard's books:
Dianetics
Scientology
Self-Analysis

Wow, aren't you credible.

I am gonna try to stop posting in this this thread now, but people, please. Use your own sense of judgment and have a wonderful day! :)

Later! :)

Edit: After having read some of the stuff on that website, it is completely bogus. If you really want to know more about scientology you can either PM me or IM me at "itsroberthello" (AIM). For a website to check out, http://www.scientology.org

[iGav]

Yes, it is a little creepy, (even for me)

I've never heard anyone who attends Church through personal choice describe it as 'creepy'. If it is 'creepy' then that is very, very worrying.

Anyway, I don't really know anything about the Church of Scientology or what goes on behind it's closed doors, although I'd be most surprised if it's as corrupt as what goes on within the Vatican and the like.

[takao]

Takao: The IRS did a study and found that Scientology was a legit religion.

in germany,austria,switzerland it is _not_
in germany it is monitored by the Bundes-Verfassungsschutz ("constitution protection service") in germany because of "threat against national security"
:rolleyes:
and according to independent investigations in 2002 by the law faculty of the university munich further court cases about "Volksverhetzung" "creation of an organized criminal organisation" would be valid

in switzerland it is rated as "confidence-unworthy destructive cult"...

really sounds like a "legit religion"
scientology won't get near the status of a religion in the next time.... ;)

[hvfsl]

To the people in this thread that are scienlogists, you haven't even said what the religion is about in your own words. You have just refered to other texts. But if you want people to understand your religion (and want to be a part of it), then you need to explain in your own words, what it is about, what is so good about it and what you get out of it, that you couldn't get anywhere else.

If you can't explain in your own words what it is about/what is so good about it, then that ether means you can see problems with it and you don't want to let others know what those problems are or you don't even know what your religion is about. ;)

[Phobophobia]

To the people in this thread that are scienlogists, you haven't even said what the religion is about in your own words. You have just refered to other texts. But if you want people to understand your religion (and want to be a part of it), then you need to explain in your own words, what it is about, what is so good about it and what you get out of it, that you couldn't get anywhere else.

If you can't explain in your own words what it is about/what is so good about it, then that ether means you can see problems with it and you don't want to let others know what those problems are or you don't even know what your religion is about. ;)

Ok. I will try to make this post a good one.

Scientology is good because not only will it bring out the best of your ability, but it will also prepare you for life and lead you to happiness. And it works.

The "Xenu" website is complete BS, as are basically all of the anti-Scientology websites.

There are tons of anti-mac websites, and we all know how right they are, eh? :rolleyes:

It's the same thing for scientology.

And once again people, if you have ANY questions just contact me. (CONTACT ME DIRECTLY. Not in this thread. I prefer AIM. ("itsroberthello"))

[jsw]

It seems to me, Phobophobia, that you only further the belief in the cult status of Scientology by refusing to do so much as summarize the basic ideals here. Any religious person could surely provide a short (few paragaphs or less) summary of their beliefs.

Your quote:

"Scientology is good because not only will it bring out the best of your ability, but it will also prepare you for life and lead you to happiness. And it works."

says nothing. Your insistence that you be contacted privately suggests a need to indoctrinate people individually.

Surely, if this is a religion and not just a self-aggrandizing cult started by a bad sci-fi hack, you can provide us with the basic principles of your belief.

I am willing to give you an opportunity. But I need to see something here, in public, else I will simply reaffirm my current belief that Scientology has nothing to do with religion whatsoever.

[Phobophobia]

It seems to me, Phobophobia, that you only further the belief in the cult status of Scientology by refusing to do so much as summarize the basic ideals here. Any religious person could surely provide a short (few paragaphs or less) summary of their beliefs.

Your quote:

"Scientology is good because not only will it bring out the best of your ability, but it will also prepare you for life and lead you to happiness. And it works."

says nothing. Your insistence that you be contacted privately suggests a need to indoctrinate people individually.

Surely, if this is a religioun and not just a self-aggrandizing cult started by a bad sci-fi hack, you can provide us with the basic principles of your belief.

I am willing to give you an opportunity. But I need to see something here, in public, else I will simply reaffirm my current belief that Scientology has nothing to do with religion whatsoever.

Hi! :)
If you wish to learn why and/or how Scientology will make your life better and help you or whoever utilizes it you can check out some of L. Ron Hubbard's books. Try "Dianetics". That's my favorite, and it is usually a good starting point. I am not going to explain the intricacies of the religion. Not only would it be hard to type, long, and very confusing to most people due to the introduction of several unfamiliar words, but most people would probably just nitpick through it looking for things they can label negatively.

Once again, jsw, if you, or anyone wants to know the specifics of the religion you can consult the books written by the "hack", L. Ron Hubbard, talk to a member of the church or consult me directly at "itsroberthello" on AIM.

Continue having a great day! :D

[KingSleaze]

Surely, if this is a religioun and not just a self-aggrandizing cult started by a bad sci-fi hack, you can provide us with the basic principles of your belief.


Just because he started it as a bar bet?

[pimentoLoaf]

If anyone would like to compare CoS to, say, Judaism, please take a few hours to look at Aish.com (http://www.aish.com), which is a very uplifting experience (IMHO).

[Phobophobia]

Just because he started it as a bar bet?

That is merely a myth. It never really happened. Although, he did receive a lot of encouragement to spread the word about his findings. Once "Dianetics" came out, people were so interested with what he found from his research (still in print) that they camped outside his house to find out more.

[jsw]

If anyone would like to compare CoS to, say, Judaism, please take a few hours to look at Aish.com (http://www.aish.com), which is a very uplifting experience (IMHO).

Pretty cool.

Nice to see a religion where you can learn all you'd like, then become a practicing member, for free.

Oh, wait... that's true of most religions.

[hvfsl]

Hi! :)
If you wish to learn why and/or how Scientology will make your life better and help you or whoever utilizes it you can check out some of L. Ron Hubbard's books. Try "Dianetics". That's my favorite, and it is usually a good starting point. I am not going to explain the intricacies of the religion. Not only would it be hard to type, long, and very confusing to most people due to the introduction of several unfamiliar words, but most people would probably just nitpick through it looking for things they can label negatively.

Once again, jsw, if you, or anyone wants to know the specifics of the religion you can consult the books written by the "hack", L. Ron Hubbard, talk to a member of the church or consult me directly at "itsroberthello" on AIM.

Continue having a great day! :D

Well all you are doing is proving my point. If you can find too many problems with something, then it is generally not worth doing. You may be happy with that type of religion, but I am not.

So I will wish you a happy life with your chosen religion.

[Phobophobia]

Pretty cool.

Nice to see a religion where you can learn all you'd like, then become a practicing member, for free.

Oh, wait... that's true of most religions.

I used to like those troll toys a while back, you know, the ones with the weird hair? If someone collected them, you could say they were trolling. If someone was being very open about troll collecting, you could say they were flaming troll collectors. They had their own club, and members were banned if the administration felt it was necessary.

Happy Fathers' day!

[jsw]

Hi! :)
If you wish to learn why and/or how Scientology will make your life better and help you or whoever utilizes it you can check out some of L. Ron Hubbard's books. Try "Dianetics". That's my favorite, and it is usually a good starting point. I am not going to explain the intricacies of the religion. Not only would it be hard to type, long, and very confusing to most people due to the introduction of several unfamiliar words, but most people would probably just nitpick through it looking for things they can label negatively.

Once again, jsw, if you, or anyone wants to know the specifics of the religion you can consult the books written by the "hack", L. Ron Hubbard, talk to a member of the church or consult me directly at "itsroberthello" on AIM.

Continue having a great day! :D

I truly appreciate your good attitude. I'm sure that you deal with this sort of thing constantly. I certainly respect your right to believe as you choose.

My reference to Hubbard as a "hack" comes from having read some of his sci-fi when I was younger. As far as that writing is concerned, well, it's not top-notch. Stunningly verbose, but not that great. My opinion. It has no impact on any arguments concerning the viability of Scientology, of course.

Still, I stand by my opinion that a religion should be easily summarized in a few paragraphs in a public forum. I'm sure we could look up any "unfamiliar" words. Also, I'd assume any religion would, by definition, require a belief in one or more gods. AFAIK, Scientology doesn't.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Ok. I will try to make this post a good one.

Scientology is good because not only will it bring out the best of your ability, but it will also prepare you for life and lead you to happiness. And it works.



Sorry, but for the interest of sincere discussion I will reply here.

The same could be said about Steven Covey's Seven Habits. It too tries to bring out the best ability of the individual. And it too prepares you for your life, both personal and business. And in the end happiness. And it too works, so well that Franklin bought the rights I believe.

Do wish you would expand a bit more. Not all of us prone to condemn. It is hard for those that have a basis in other churches to see past the "money" aspect of the Church of Scientology.

Yes,, other churches do "demand" or "ask" for "money" to support itself. Though most of the churches that i have investigated do not require to be paid for training in the ideology of that church. Don't mean to offend, but that is the way it appears.

Sincerely, what about those that for what ever reason can not afford the materials? Regardless whether it is someone earning minimum wage, or someone earning six figures - there may be obligations that out weigh contributions to the church.

In your follow-up to jsw:

I can understand your comments. But that is the reason that many have with the Church of Scientology. No one seems to be willing to discuss it openly in forums like this. I can understand to a degree, since many question it.

Though I would assume many others here would be willing to try and give a Readers Digest version of the main points. Even Muslims and Islamics would be willing to try and provide provide a basic insight.

[Phobophobia]

Well all you are doing is proving my point. If you can find too many problems with something, then it is generally not worth doing. You may be happy with that type of religion, but I am not.

So I will wish you a happy life with your chosen religion.

You could find problems, or you could find a great way to improve your life. It just depends on what you are looking for. I never said that there were any problems with the fundamentals and beliefs of the religion. I just implied you be able to find problems--since you are looking for them. :D

Continue with the great dayness

[jsw]

I used to like those troll toys a while back, you know, the ones with the weird hair? If someone collected them, you could say they were trolling. If someone was being very open about troll collecting, you could say they were flaming troll collectors. They had their own club, and members were banned if the administration felt it was necessary.

Happy Fathers' day!

Wow. Interesting way to convince people to look into your belief system.

My point that most religions do not require buy-in is true and it is certainly a valid post for the community forum.

Please do not resort to implied threats about being banned.

[Phobophobia]

Sorry, but for the interest of sincere discussion I will reply here.

The same could be said about Steven Covey's Seven Habits. It too tries to bring out the best ability of the individual. And it too prepares you for your life, both personal and business. And in the end happiness. And it too works, so well that Franklin bought the rights I believe.

Do wish you would expand a bit more. Not all of us prone to condemn. It is hard for those that have a basis in other churches to see past the "money" aspect of the Church of Scientology.

Yes,, other churches do "demand" or "ask" for "money" to support itself. Though most of the churches that i have investigated do not require to be paid for training in the ideology of that church. Don't mean to offend, but that is the way it appears.

Sincerely, what about those that for what ever reason can not afford the materials? Regardless whether it is someone earning minimum wage, or someone earning six figures - there may be obligations that out weigh contributions to the church.

Scientology is a religion that, when it is applied effectively, will lead you to a life of happiness, freedom, ability and abundance. Is that good enough? Isn't that worth more than money?. Is that all you--being a MAC USER, even--can think about? Money? People need to be paid for their services. That is why there is costs to Scientology. Not because it is a money scam.

If that offended you at all, it wasn't on purpose.

Make the best of your day and enjoy it.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Still, I stand by my opinion that a religion should be easily summarized in a few paragraphs in a public forum. I'm sure we could look up any "unfamiliar" words. Also, I'd assume any religion would, by definition, require a belief in one or more gods. AFAIK, Scientology doesn't.

Religion is defined as:

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.


The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

The later two may define the Church of Scientology.

The fact they may not (I am not sure) have a "spiritual leader" that is alive, does not matter. I sometimes worry about religions that have spiritual leaders that are alive that are supposed to communicate the word of God (or be guided by) to their members.

[jsw]

The later two may define the Church of Scientology.

Good point. I stand corrected.

[Phobophobia]

Wow. Interesting way to convince people to look into your belief system.

My point that most religions do not require buy-in is true and it is certainly a valid post for the community forum.

Please do not resort to implied threats about being banned.

It wasn't a threat. The "belief system" is: troll and flame and be banned. Simple as that. That post felt like trolling. (Which is the main point I was trying to get across). I am not going to report it and I am not upset about it, but be vigilant about future posts.

[takao]

Scientology is a religion that, when it is applied effectively, will lead you to a life of happiness, freedom, ability and abundance. Is that good enough? Isn't that worth more than money?. Is that all you--being a MAC USER, even--can think about? Money? People need to be paid for their services. That is why there is costs to Scientology. Not because it is a money scam.

oh the irony...

HCO-policy-letter of 9 March 1972 R Issue I, revised 4 August 1983:

"MAKE MONEY.
MAKE MORE MONEY
MAKE OTHER PEOPLE PRODUCE SO AS TO MAKE MONEY."


scientology is still not a religion
http://www.ingo-heinemann.de/Bundesarbeitsgericht-5AZB21-94.htm (sadly only available in german)
the more people you get to join the more money you get....sounds like a snowball-system for me (and for multiple judges too)

[Phobophobia]

Scientology does not require that you believe in any gods, however, L. Ron Hubbard did believe in God and he conveys that openly in his writing. He simply chooses not to force any opinions on people, which is what I strongly believe in.

if earth != frozen over
then alert("Have a good day!");
else move_to(Mars);

[Phobophobia]

oh the irony...

HCO-policy-letter of 9 March 1972 R Issue I, revised 4 August 1983:

"MAKE MONEY.
MAKE MORE MONEY
MAKE OTHER PEOPLE PRODUCE SO AS TO MAKE MONEY."


scientology is still not a religion
http://www.ingo-heinemann.de/Bundesarbeitsgericht-5AZB21-94.htm (sadly only available in german)
the more people you get to join the more money you get....sounds like a snowball-system for me (and for multiple judges too)

Sounds like BS, and Scientology IS a religion in America. (Not that I feel that it is any less of a religion in other countries simply because of other opinions)

Have a an amazingly good day!!!

[jsw]

It wasn't a threat. The "belief system" is: troll and flame and be banned. Simple as that.

What? The phrase "belief system" is banned?

No way. To quote arn:
Instantly Bannable offenses

In general, we try to give some warnings, but these are one-time bannable offenses. You will not get a warning.

1) Direct personal insult. ie "You are an idiot." and all the variations. Why? Because this isn't grade school. People should be able to not insult people. And the only purpose of a post like this is to incite other people.

There are a lot of other non-direct-personal insults that won't necessary get you banned instantly, such as... "that is an idiotic comment". Depending on the context/nature, they may get edited. Bottom line -- don't try to piss off others.

2) Spam. The real thing... not just being a prolific poster. ie. Someone posting the same exact post in 10 different threads. Someone posting multiple pointless posts in the same thread. This will get your account banned -- and get your IP banned from the forums and site where you won't even be able to load the site.

Things Not to Do

These aren't instantly bannable - but will get you edited and or warned.

1) Off-topic posts in the non-Community discussion areas. Keep it free of off topic posts. Off-topic posts will be deleted/edited. If you keep doing it see #4.
2) Warez
3) "Trolling" - this is more of a pattern, and will get you banned... but can be a subjective call. Basically, don't try to pick fights.
4) Anything ongoing actions that require more work for everyone involved. If banning you is easier than dealing with the problems you are causing, you will be banned.


If your implication is that I, to paraphrase arn, tried to "piss you off" by using the phrase "belief system" instead of "religion", then, gosh, I'm sorry. I'll try to avoid alternate phrases from now on.

[takao]

Sounds like BS, and Scientology IS a religion in America. (Not that I feel that it is any less of a religion in other countries simply because of other opinions)

Have a an amazingly good day!!!

what sounds like BS ? the quote from the founder of scientology(the one with the "make more money") or the conclusion of the court

BTW: there is no "religion" status for an organization in the USA
Scientology gets tax cuts but that's it
in germany,austria,switzerland (and perhaps multiple other countries) such a classification system exists and Scientology is rated as company or an association (on the www.kirche.at you can see which churches are accepted as churches here)

[Phobophobia]

What? The phrase "belief system" is banned?

No way. To quote arn:


If your implication is that I, to paraphrase arn, tried to "piss you off" by using the phrase "belief system" instead of "religion", then, gosh, I'm sorry. I'll try to avoid alternate phrases from now on.

First of all, you know that isn't what I meant. You can speak in ebonics for all I care. (In fact, I rather like the way it sounds... not really a full-fledged language, though. LOL)

All I am saying is you shouldn't troll and, yes, flaming will get you banned. I realize trolling isn't an instantly bannable offense.

Day == "good"
Mood == "cheerful"

[Phobophobia]

what sounds like BS ? the quote from the founder of scientology(the one with the "make more money") or the conclusion of the court

The quote (Which could be fake for all anyone knows at this point, or greatly taken out of context) and the conclusion of the court are both BS.

[Phobophobia]

what sounds like BS ? the quote from the founder of scientology(the one with the "make more money") or the conclusion of the court

BTW: there is no "religion" status for an organization in the USA
Scientology gets tax cuts but that's it
in germany,austria,switzerland (and perhaps multiple other countries) such a classification system exists and Scientology is rated as company or an association (on the www.kirche.at you can see which churches are accepted as churches here)

Scientology is indeed officially a religion as verified by the IRS.

[takao]

Scientology is indeed officially a religion as verified by the IRS.

wrong it's status at the IRS is "non-profit" (which could be discussed) and therefor Scientology gets tax cuts...that doesn't mean automatically it's a religion....

here you can search for "non-profit" charities" organisations..
http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=96136,00.html

seems to be a lot of religions or am i wrong ;)

[abc123]

this would be a better discussion if there was more than one scientologist participating.

[jsw]

Scientology is indeed officially a religion as verified by the IRS.

Boy, if it weren't for the threat of being called out for trolling and flaming, I'd be tempted to comment on that.

And, Phobophobia, I didn't start off by trying to incent you. Note my earlier posts. But if you can't respond to criticism that your religion is out to make a profit, then you shouldn't be posting here. Opinion that Scientology is a scheme to make the top people rich is the single most common public opinion of it, among those who even care to have an opinion. If you cannot address that opinion or at least shrug it off, you shouldn't be posting advocacy of that religion here.

[Phobophobia]

wrong it's status at the IRS is "non-profit" (which could be discussed) and therefor Scientology gets tax cuts...that doesn't mean automatically it's a religion....

No. I am no tax expert, so I cannot verify if it is only considered a non-profit, however, the IRS did indeed deem it as a legit religion. I am not talking about tax breaks here, they said it themselves.

Have a wonderful day.

[Phobophobia]

Boy, if it weren't for the threat of being called out for trolling and flaming, I'd be tempted to comment on that.

And, Phobophobia, I didn't start off by trying to incent you. Note my earlier posts. But if you can't respond to criticism that your religion is out to make a profit, then you shouldn't be posting here. Opinion that Scientology is a scheme to make the top people rich is the single most common public opinion of it, among those who even care to have an opinion. If you cannot address that opinion or at least shrug it off, you shouldn't be posting advocacy of that religion here.

As the past has demonstrated, the most widely accepted opinions aren't always the "correct" ones.

And yes, they make a profit, but it is spent accordingly to help the religion grow and pay people for their services. (They are non-profit). Just because money is involved doesn't instantly make them evil.

And, just like with most other religions, you do not have to pay any money to participate in the church. You can attend the sermons, lectures and demonstrations all you want and talk to fellow Scientologists if that is what you want to do without paying a dime. (there's always food, which is usually free, there, too).

Make your day good. Cheerfulness is contagious.

[takao]

No. I am no tax expert, so I cannot verify if it is only considered a non-profit, however, the IRS did indeed deem it as a legit religion. I am not talking about tax breaks here, they said it themselves.

Have a wonderful day.

http://www.scientology.org/en_US/news-media/faq/pg045.html

"On that day, the IRS issued letters recognizing the Church of Scientology International and its related churches and organizations as tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code."

http://www.charities.org/become.html

"Must be a 501(c)3, non-profit status as determined by the Internal Revenue Service."

[jsw]

http://www.scientology.org/en_US/news-media/faq/pg045.html

"On that day, the IRS issued letters recognizing the Church of Scientology International and its related churches and organizations as tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code."

http://www.charities.org/become.html

"Must be a 501(c)3, non-profit status as determined by the Internal Revenue Service."

So Scientology is non-profit. Interesting.

But so far, no source indicating official recognition of it as a religion outside, of course, of Scientology itself.

[Phobophobia]

http://www.scientology.org/en_US/news-media/faq/pg045.html

"On that day, the IRS issued letters recognizing the Church of Scientology International and its related churches and organizations as tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code."

http://www.charities.org/become.html

"Must be a 501(c)3, non-profit status as determined by the Internal Revenue Service."

Takao, the IRS did state that it operated as a religion. You do make some good points though

[Phobophobia]

So Scientology is non-profit. Interesting.

But so far, no source indicating official recognition of it as a religion outside, of course, of Scientology itself.

No recognition? How about an article showing how Scientologists were among the first people out on Ground Zero helping firefighters? Hmm...? No one else was let in except the Salvation Army and the Red Cross. (The original article was in the New York Times).

Here a press release that mentions how they were there during 9/11, among other things. http://www.scientology.org/en_US/news-media/news/2002/020626.html

Have an platonically orgasmic day.

[MongoTheGeek]

So Scientology is non-profit. Interesting.

But so far, no source indicating official recognition of it as a religion outside, of course, of Scientology itself.

Non profit of course does not mean that they don't make a profit, it just means it doesn't show up on the books.

[takao]

Takao, the IRS did state that it operated as a religion. You do make some good points though

repeating doesn't make it true...
the IRS declared it as non profit/charity organaziation.period.
that doesn't make it automatically a religion.period.

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html



if the IRS made a separate official statement feel free to give as a hyperlink ...

[Phobophobia]

repeating doesn't make it true...
the IRS declared it as non profit/charity organaziation.period.
that doesn't make it automatically a religion.period.

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html



if the IRS made a separate official statement feel free to give as a hyperlink ...

I reread the letter and you're right. They didn't state that Scientology was a religion, HOWEVER, the reason that they weren't certified as a non-profit organization before 1994 was because originally they didn't feel it was a religion out there for social good. They issued a statement, seen here:http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/irsletter.html , which said that they were out there for social good. So technically, they recognized it as a religion but they never said "Hey, we're the IRS and Scientology is a religion!!", but they did recognize it as one. :)

Have a record shattering day

[jsw]

No recognition? How about an article showing how Scientologists were among the first people out on Ground Zero helping firefighters? Hmm...? No one else was let in except the Salvation Army and the Red Cross. (The original article was in the New York Times).

Here a press release that mentions how they were there during 9/11, among other things. http://www.scientology.org/en_US/news-media/news/2002/020626.html

Have an platonically orgasmic day.

Again, we'd like a quote from a non-Scientology site. If you can find the NYT article, that'd be great. Not a Scientology site quoting it. The original article.

[jefhatfield]

That is merely a myth. It never really happened. Although, he did receive a lot of encouragement to spread the word about his findings. Once "Dianetics" came out, people were so interested with what he found from his research (still in print) that they camped outside his house to find out more.


yes, it really did

get your facts straight...realize that i am with you in letting people practice their own religion and having america have freedom of religion

but you are not furthering the cause of your faith if you fight lies and misconceptions with other lies and misconceptions

i have a friend who is a jehovah witness and though they have every right to exist, he and his friends have an elaborate set of lies and half truths to cover up the fact the domination's primary reason, or at least high up there, is to make money ;)

he would get a lot more respect if he only confessed to me that he has donated tons of money to that church and he constantly has excuses for why he won't pay off his secular financial contributions, etc...it's awful and it's torn his family relationships apart

but within my own "subset" of religious belief...evangelical christianity, stemming from the liberal unity church to the moderate presbyterian mainline churches to the right wing southern baptists...i am far more worried about a so called cult within my fold few know about called the international church of christ started by kip mckean...any negative cult findings from religious and non religious experts have found the international church of christ to be a cult

i know many in cults justify it by saying, but hey, christianity was a small jewish cult from the first century...yes, true, but was the profit motive their agenda?

again, i am not saying religion for money is all wrong, but mind bending/brainwashing could be used to further a belief, or more recently, to make a buck and at that point, i can't think of why america needs to offer an organization like that non-profit status ;)

i belong on a board of a non-profit and we are sure to see we are not a business...churches usually are careful, too but when i see dianetics, the jehovah witnesses, and the international church of christ cross that line, then i have legitimate gripes

[Phobophobia]

Again, we'd like a quote from a non-Scientology site. If you can find the NYT article, that'd be great. Not a Scientology site quoting it. The original article.

Excuse me?! Even though I find the the way you are treating the official statement from Scientology--A PRESS RELEASE NO LESS--extremely offensive, here is the proof. It IS on the Scientology website but it quotes the New York Times article. They did not make this up. Here is the summary for the article online: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70F15FE3B5F0C738EDDA00894D9404482 .

Have a great, truthful, day.

[jsw]

I reread the letter and you're right. They didn't state that Scientology was a religion, HOWEVER, the reason that they weren't certified as a non-profit organization before 1994 was because originally they didn't feel it was a religion out there for social good. They issued a statement, seen here:http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/irsletter.html , which said that they were out there for social good. So technically, they recognized it as a religion but they never said "Hey, we're the IRS and Scientology is a religion!!", but they did recognize it as one. :)

Have a record shattering day

That decade-old letter, if genuine, does not "technically... recognize it as a religion". It recognizes it as a charitable organization. United Way isn't a religion.

[Phobophobia]

New york times article: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70F15FE3B5F0C738EDDA00894D9404482

Have a great day

[jsw]

<Edit>Thanks for the original site. I just found it myself. Please understand that a press release is usually meaningless promotional fluff.</Edit>

[Phobophobia]

That decade-old letter, if genuine, does not "technically... recognize it as a religion". It recognizes it as a charitable organization. United Way isn't a religion.

It recognizes it as a charitable organization, it's just that our opinions differ.

day==great

[Phobophobia]

I gotta go now... hopefully to never enter this thread again. It is not my duty to defend scientology from every little detail you can turn into an insulting opinion. Scientology is there to help people. End of story. It is a religion. Check it out, although, if you are like some people that posted in this thread, it probably won't be worth the waste of time.

Have an amazing day.

By the way, does the fact that the only other people allowed in ground zero other than scientologists were the red cross and salvation army?? Does that mean nothing to you? Rudy Giuliani requested their help. And they did help, scientology creates results.

[jsw]

I gotta go now... hopefully to never enter this thread again. It is not my duty to defend scientology from every little detail you can turn into an insulting opinion.

"Every little detail"? All people were asking for was a summary of the religion. There was discussion around the aspect of Scientology as a religion vs cult, but so what? That is not new.

All I know is that someone who was attempting to promote their religion failed to post even a single sentence about its core beliefs to people who were asking - some quite politely - for some insight into it.

And that provided me with sufficient insight in and of itself.

[mymemory]

I would just like to first say that I am a active Scientologist, and I would just like to clear a couple things up.

1. We are not a cult in the sense that we do not brainwash you or force you to do anything. Seriously, you don't have to believe in any god or anything if you don't want to. It is all your choice, and the organization/religion is there to help people.

I went to play with my band at the boat of scicilogy about 8 years ago. It was a cruise I mean. It felt strange, all they said was" this room was sponsored by Demi Moore" this piano was sponores by Kenny G, many famous actors are sciciologist, etc" I mean, if you no were sciologist you were not cool.

2. Some people seem to think it is a money scam, but it really isn't. Yes--the study materials for the religion cost money, but you are paying for more than just a book and the results are phenomenal.

For some strange reason the founder of the "religion" Iah to spend the rest of his life in that boat because he had an order of aprenhention in every port. He died on the boat.

3. The articles you linked to are really irrelevant. They seem suspicious, but their validity can't be proven, and I really can't see how the stuff in them would be of any use to Scientology in general. It is nice that you have an open mind, but if you really want to get the real scoop on the religion in general I suggest you go to one of the churches before you make up your mind.

I haven't read the articles but after I wnet to the boat I told that my mother and she was affraid, she told me some sciciologist wanted to convence my brother years before (that was early 80's).

Sciologist is NOT a religion, in the US anything can be a religion even if I am a DJ I can make some sort of DJ religion.

I do not say sciologist kill poeple because is a lie but there is something selfish behind it, money attract money for sure. I remember the developmen of this strange machine that meassure your energy during the day and by certain rituals (I think) you coul balance your electricity during the day. Only sciologist uses that machine and I wonder money for what kind of investigations? there si the Bible already.

Well, the point is that is not a reliable organization, it doesn't seem honest and too many stories behind it from too many different people, even from Venezuela!

[takao]

"Every little detail"? All people were asking for was a summary of the religion. There was discussion around the aspect of Scientology as a religion vs cult, but so what? That is not new.

All I know is that someone who was attempting to promote their religion failed to post even a single sentence about its core beliefs to people who were asking - some quite politely - for some insight into it.

And that provided me with sufficient insight in and of itself.

well first you have to attend a few 690 €/hour "auditions"
;)

[Neserk]

I've never heard anyone who attends Church through personal choice describe it as 'creepy'. If it is 'creepy' then that is very, very worrying.
.


Have to agree with that.

[Neserk]

in germany,austria,switzerland it is _not_
in germany it is monitored by the Bundes-Verfassungsschutz ("constitution protection service") in germany because of "threat against national security"
:rolleyes:
and according to independent investigations in 2002 by the law faculty of the university munich further court cases about "Volksverhetzung" "creation of an organized criminal organisation" would be valid

in switzerland it is rated as "confidence-unworthy destructive cult"...

really sounds like a "legit religion"
scientology won't get near the status of a religion in the next time.... ;)


In the US the requirements aren't as strict. I could guess as to what they are.... but I won't. Perhaps someone will feel the urge to look it up!

[Chip NoVaMac]

Scientology is a religion that, when it is applied effectively, will lead you to a life of happiness, freedom, ability and abundance. Is that good enough? Isn't that worth more than money?. Is that all you--being a MAC USER, even--can think about? Money? People need to be paid for their services. That is why there is costs to Scientology. Not because it is a money scam.

If that offended you at all, it wasn't on purpose.

Make the best of your day and enjoy it.

No not offended at all. I am not trying to flame or troll. I like intellectual debate. I also like learning a bit from time to time. I don't always have the time though to read through a book like Dianetics.

I guess it my bias towards Christian and Judaic faiths that has me puzzled about CoS (no disrespect here, just shorthand for discussions sake). Your brief synopsis is why I question the motives of the CoS.

With the Christian and Judaic religions happiness is found in God and (depending on your faith) Jesus' love. Doing unto others is a basic tenet of these faiths. Helping others is another facet. Whether it is through building housing, giving a hot meal, or providing education- both practical and/or spiritual.

As a Gay Christian, I find freedom hard to define with many churches. God did give the ability to choose between right and wrong. It is called free will. I rest my faith in a loving God. A God that would not forsake his children for certain transgressions. Abundance for the two religions that I have mentioned is in God's love for us. Worldly goods are one thing, but his love and guidance in our daily lives is meant to be more than we can handle.

Maybe I have a different perspective. Because of a number of issues within my family, i was "groomed" or "destined" to go into the vocation of my church. Thanks to some "divine" intervention, I took sometime to make my choice. My being Gay did not enter into the process until later. It included living a more simple life. A job, an apartment, and the basics (like a car since transit sucks in the DC area).

For myself, I chose a life outside of the vocation. I chose to serve God in different ways. I did peer counseling. I started the first BBS the Sexually transmitted decease AIDS Information Network (SAIN) back in the 80's.

the churches that I have been involved with over the years never "required" money for my involvement within the church. Only one to be honest tried to portray tithing to personal gain.

I guess this is where you and I part ways. A church providing instruction is providing a service. But spreading the "word" in many other churches is far more important than paying for the service of giving that word. For as one gains the ability to pay or tithe, then the church will be able to continue its mission.

A side question. In the Christian and Judaic faiths, charity is an important part of the faith. Giving back to the community. What does the Church of Scientology do for charitable causes? Not a flame or a troll, but a sincere question.

[jsw]

I must confess something.

I am a member of a cult. Some call it a "religion", but I know it's a cult.

I need to pay a significant amount of money to be a member.

The leader of this cult has gotten rich from it and openly admits to being wealthy. Many people do not like him.

I try to recruit others to this cult, knowing it will cost them time and money.

Many celebrities are openly members of this cult.

I am prosecuted and ridiculed for my membership in - and advocacy of - this cult.

Nevertheless, it brings me great tranquility and peace of mind.

I am - sing along with me - a Mac user.

:)

[jefhatfield]

I must confess something.

I am a member of a cult. Some call it a "religion", but I know it's a cult.

I need to pay a significant amount of money to be a member.

The leader of this cult has gotten rich from it and openly admits to being wealthy. Many people do not like him.

I try to recruit others to this cult, knowing it will cost them time and money.

Many celebrities are openly members of this cult.

I am prosecuted and ridiculed for my membership in - and advocacy of - this cult.

Nevertheless, it brings me great tranquility and peace of mind.

I am - sing along with me - a Mac user.

:)


...and also...

hi, my name is jefhatfield, and i am a mac addict ;)

and in my addiction/religion, steve wozniak is god, guy kawasaki is christ and the spreader of the word, and steve jobs is paul, who did his best work when the other two were gone and turned it into his own pseudo religion and got really, really RICH

[Chip NoVaMac]

I reread the letter and you're right. They didn't state that Scientology was a religion, HOWEVER, the reason that they weren't certified as a non-profit organization before 1994 was because originally they didn't feel it was a religion out there for social good. They issued a statement, seen here:http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/irsletter.html , which said that they were out there for social good. So technically, they recognized it as a religion but they never said "Hey, we're the IRS and Scientology is a religion!!", but they did recognize it as one. :)

Have a record shattering day

Actually it states more about "religius or charitable" purposes. the key is the word "or". So partially right in terms of the tax exempt status. What it does mean is that the CoS was not lumped under the "association" banner.

[Neserk]

Interesting, ummm, discussion. I've not personally looked at CoS. The name completely turns me off. The false promise of making one happy turns me off -- I had that same false promise come from a certain denomination of Christianity as a child and it was quite devastating.

My husband however is quite well self-educated on various religions. He has done in depth study with Mormons, Buddhists, Muslims, and of course Christianity. He also investigated CoS, sincerely and with an open mind. He found what a lot of you have stated. If you aren't rich you aren't going to benefit from its promises, etc. That is why it is people like Tom Cruise and John Travolta who are in it -- lots of money.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Interesting, ummm, discussion. I've not personally looked at CoS. The name completely turns me off. The false promise of making one happy turns me off -- I had that same false promise come from a certain denomination of Christianity as a child and it was quite devastating.

My husband however is quite well self-educated on various religions. He has done in depth study with Mormons, Buddhists, Muslims, and of course Christianity. He also investigated CoS, sincerely and with an open mind. He found what a lot of you have stated. If you aren't rich you aren't going to benefit from its promises, etc. That is why it is people like Tom Cruise and John Travolta who are in it -- lots of money.

Since Phobophobia could not articulate the better points of the CoS, could you have your husband provide some more insight?

[Neserk]

Since Phobophobia could not articulate the better points of the CoS, could you have your husband provide some more insight?


I'll see what I can get him to do... It may take a while.

[Phobophobia]

I'll see what I can get him to do... It may take a while.

To all people still reading spectating this thread, whatever Neserk says is probably gonna be complete BS. If you want the real story PM me. I have already offered chip insight into scientology but he did not want it. He doesn't want to hear the truth, he would rather hear a bunch of unfounded opinions from a stranger who hasn't even been a real scientologist.

Make today a good one.

[LethalWolfe]

To all people still reading spectating this thread, whatever Neserk says is probably gonna be complete BS.


LOL

Wow. That almost had me sprewing Dr Pepper out of my nose.


Lethal

[jefhatfield]

To all people still reading spectating this thread, whatever Neserk says is probably gonna be complete BS. If you want the real story PM me. I have already offered chip insight into scientology but he did not want it. He doesn't want to hear the truth, he would rather hear a bunch of unfounded opinions from a stranger who hasn't even been a real scientologist.

Make today a good one.

religion should be able to operate freely in america

so should business

and whether one organization is one or the other, that's up to the courts to decide...but what's great about america is that we can sell stuff and we can worship, and not look over our backs at the government taking over or spying on us

that being said, i totally respect the right of dyanetics to exist and thrive, even if there is evidence that some people have been hurt from it and others have benefited

there are many different viewpoints and i can't see how you, phobophobia, can speak for neserk or her husband about his viewpoints on the church of scientology...you haven't even heard him or seen a post here so how do you know what he is going to say, if he does, is bs?

go ahead and tell us about your religion, but don't lie about it or refute people's opinions before they have even said one word! either you are very, very bad at promoting dyanetics and not using logic in your arguments or you hate dyanetics/scientology and want to make followers look like absolute liars and idiots with the statements you have put forth ;)

in america one is free to be a neo nazi...but what really bugs me is when they say there was no holocaust

you saying that l ron hubbard did not manufacture dyanetics on a bet is simply revisionist history...he has mentioned it in interviews including howard stern...hubbard may have started dyanetics on a cynical whim but i do understand he came to believe in it as he created a religion under the belief all religion was flawed so in the end hubbard did believe in his sayings

many a person has set out on a mission to disprove god and in the process, came to believe in god/higher power/spirituality/etc...hubbard was a human like the rest of us and what he may have believed when he started his religion does not have to mean he thought religion was and is a joke after he finished his writings

there is no doubt he made a major impact

[amin]

To all people still reading spectating this thread, whatever Neserk says is probably gonna be complete BS. If you want the real story PM me. I have already offered chip insight into scientology but he did not want it. He doesn't want to hear the truth, he would rather hear a bunch of unfounded opinions from a stranger who hasn't even been a real scientologist.

Make today a good one.
I'm not sure if that was just a defensive reaction, but it certainly is offensive.
I don't know of any religion where non-members who have studied are unable to provide a fair description.
If you can offer insight and truth via PM, why can't you do it in a public forum? It invloves typing the same "stuff." Why the need for privacy? Surely it would be easier to define your technical terms, etc, once in a forum rather than many times in PM/IM.

[zimv20]

hey phobia -

i heard that part of scientology is to rid the body of toxins. is that true?

[Neserk]

He read books on Scientology, probably the ones that are being recommended. What he notes was that it was pretty neutral. No matter what traditional religion you practiced it wasn't going against those. He met with scientologists, still pretty neutral.

Then he met "the machine." He described it as a kind of bio-feedback machince. The premise is this: subliminal negative thoughts can seep into your mind. These negatively effect you. Keep you from reaching your potential, etc. You are hooked up to this machine and think of bad things that have happened (experiences, etc.) and some how neutralize them until the machine gives you a low reading. Then you have go on to the next thought. It is a kind of pseudo-psychology. There is some basis in psychology for it, bio feed back machines are used and so is changing negative thought patterns.

The catch is this. 3 People come to you and determine when you are cleansed of your negative thoughts, etc. *They* decide when you are done. AND you have to pay money to use the machine. THIS is where most outsiders get hung up on it.

As you get more and more cleansed you move higher and higher up in the organization. And you learn more and more about the organization.

After he decided that it wasn't for him he did some more reasearch. He discovered that L. Ron Hubbard is a paranoid schizophrenic. You can, through the freedom of information act, see his letters to the CIA/FBI that give evidence to this. Scientologists in Florida have been sued (not sure what is happening) because they have deprived followers of medical care and psychiatric care against their will.

If PP thinks this is BS perhaps he can better explain "the machine" and why you have to pay to use it. I'm trying to explain what my husband explained to me, without having actually seen it myself.

Oh, and he is now considered by SoC to be an Evil Alien. That is what he said non-believers are.

[LethalWolfe]

He read books on Scientology, probably the ones that are being recommended. What he notes was that it was pretty neutral. No matter what traditional religion you practiced it wasn't going against those. He met with scientologists, still pretty neutral.

Then he met "the machine." He described it as a kind of bio-feedback machince. The premise is this: subliminal negative thoughts can seep into your mind. These negatively effect you. Keep you from reaching your potential, etc. You are hooked up to this machine and think of bad things that have happened (experiences, etc.) and some how neutralize them until the machine gives you a low reading. Then you have go on to the next thought. It is a kind of pseudo-psychology. There is some basis in psychology for it, bio feed back machines are used and so is changing negative thought patterns.

The catch is this. 3 People come to you and determine when you are cleansed of your negative thoughts, etc. *They* decide when you are done. AND you have to pay money to use the machine. THIS is where most outsiders get hung up on it.

As you get more and more cleansed you move higher and higher up in the organization. And you learn more and more about the organization.

After he decided that it wasn't for him he did some more reasearch. He discovered that L. Ron Hubbard is a paranoid schizophrenic. You can, through the freedom of information act, see his letters to the CIA/FBI that give evidence to this. Scientologists in Florida have been sued (not sure what is happening) because they have deprived followers of medical care and psychiatric care against their will.

If PP thinks this is BS perhaps he can better explain "the machine" and why you have to pay to use it. I'm trying to explain what my husband explained to me, without having actually seen it myself.

Oh, and he is now considered by SoC to be an Evil Alien. That is what he said non-believers are.

Eh. Sounds like complete BS to me.









:p


Lethal

[jsw]

... 3 People come to you and determine when you are cleansed of your negative thoughts, etc. *They* decide when you are done. AND you have to pay money to use the machine. THIS is where most outsiders get hung up on it.

Hmmm. Now I feel bad, for I am certain that we inspired thousands of dollars' worth of negative thoughts in Phobophobia with this thread alone.

Assuming, yes, that what Neserk posted wasn't complete B.S.. ;)

[Neserk]

Hmmm. Now I feel bad, for I am certain that we inspired thousands of dollars' worth of negative thoughts in Phobophobia with this thread alone.

Assuming, yes, that what Neserk posted wasn't complete B.S.. ;)


Haha... If it is, it isn't my BS.

[3rdpath]

whatever you find that gives you a peaceful form of spiritual strength and guidance is valid. if it's free or if it costs you money...seriously, who cares?

whether phobo wants to publically share his faith's doctrine cannot be used as a reflection of his faith's validity. CoS's tax status is not nearly as important as what it does to further his desire to find a better way to live.

every faith has a few skeletons in the closet so i'd be pretty careful about passing judgment.

[jsw]

Haha... If it is, it isn't my BS.

Yes, it is Evil Alien B.S., by your own admission. I knew I shouldn't have believed it.

Perhaps if you'd submitted it as a press release (to quote Phobophobia, "A PRESS RELEASE NO LESS"), I'd have been assured it was true.

[amin]

One of my best and brightest friends in college became part of a small organization to which he began to dedicate more and more of his time though he could never explain to any of us what he was doing. Shortly before we graduated from college, he was about to leave the organization. At that point, they convinced him to come to one last "conference" at a location remote from our school. My friends and I are not certain what went on at that time, but from what we can gather, it involved sleep and food deprivation. When he returned from the trip, that friend dropped out of college (brilliant student, 3 months before graduation), gave up all his material possessions, and dedicated his life to the organization. Eight years have passed, and he still really can't tell me what he does. He just says that I should come check it out, ie consider getting involved.

As far as I am concerned, sleep deprivation is as basic a mechanism of brainwashing as exists. By all reports I have seen and heard, sleep deprivation seems to be a common experience in the CoS.

[takao]

whatever you find that gives you a peaceful form of spiritual strength and guidance is valid. if it's free or if it costs you money...seriously, who cares?

whether phobo wants to publically share his faith's doctrine cannot be used as a reflection of his faith's validity. CoS's tax status is not nearly as important as what it does to further his desire to find a better way to live.

every faith has a few skeletons in the closet so i'd be pretty careful about passing judgment.

50 court cases (involving a discussion about the religious believes) in the last 10 years in germany,switzerland,austria and still counting... that is an absolute record for a religous group by far

[Savage Henry]

50 court cases (involving a discussion about the religious believes) in the last 10 years in germany,switzerland,austria and still counting... that is an absolute record for a religous group by far

Yeah, but they do have John Travolta, and he was in Look Who's Talking (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097778/).... Surely that counts for something. ;)

But just out of curiosity, how many of those cases did they lose?

[takao]

Yeah, but they do have John Travolta, and he was in Look Who's Talking (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097778/).... Surely that counts for something. ;)

But just out of curiosity, how many of those cases did they lose?

yeah i personally like john travolta too as an actor ;)

haven't counted exactly but it comes down to 80% lost, 20% won(but those are most of the time rather unimportant personal cases)

now scientology tries to avoid going after the higher courts when they loose ,because if something is decided there it is _fact_ for all the other local smaller courts...

funny is that the german verfassungsschutz ("constitution protection office") has a list of 'extremistic groups' which are observated by them because they are a threat to national security/german democracy/constiutional rights, on their homepage:
http://www.verfassungsschutz.de/de/arbeitsfelder/
interesting in which company Scientology is there (the homepage is in german but you still get it from the pictures..it is worth a look)

[3rdpath]

50 court cases (involving a discussion about the religious believes) in the last 10 years in germany,switzerland,austria and still counting... that is an absolute record for a religous group by far

the catholic church has probably had more court cases than that in the last couple of years in california alone...

i'm not defending any faith...like i said, they all have their skeletons.

[Neserk]

the catholic church has probably had more court cases than that in the last couple of years in california alone...

.

A little different. That is because of some priests who had aberrant behavior, not the entire organizations overall policy and plan of action to defraud people of their life savings ;)

[3rdpath]

A little different. That is because of some priests who had aberrant behavior, not the entire organizations overall policy and plan of action to defraud people of their life savings ;)

ummm, maybe not so different...

according to today's l.a. times there are over 800 pending lawsuits against the catholic church in california alone. also, according to some recent research by a priest and 2 monks, the vatican has known about the problem of abuse for 1700( yes, 1700!) years...we're talking centuries of an unaddressed problem. anything that has knowingly occurred for that length of time could certainly be considered policy.

and as far as defrauding goes...rarely have i been in a church when the offering plate wasn't passed. granted, it is not mandatory to give money in most situations...but if it was and people chose to give, once again, where is the harm? what is fraudulent anyway?

the only real fraud i've seen are the t.v. evangelists who promise answered prayers for a donation...and every one of them i've seen has proclaimed to be christian. and they're sanctioned by the IRS to boot. go figure.

isn't there enough room for a multitude of mystical global enormously wealthy spiritual providers on this planet?

[zimv20]

of course, there are no absolutes w/ religion. imo, when the barriers of entry and exit get higher, the organization gets more cultish. same thing w/ the treatment of "outsiders" and ex-members.

[seewhatisunseen]

I would just like to first say that I am a active Scientologist, and I would just like to clear a couple things up.

1. We are not a cult in the sense that we do not brainwash you or force you to do anything. Seriously, you don't have to believe in any god or anything if you don't want to. It is all your choice, and the organization/religion is there to help people.

2. Some people seem to think it is a money scam, but it really isn't. Yes--the study materials for the religion cost money, but you are paying for more than just a book and the results are phenomenal.

3. The articles you linked to are really irrelevant. They seem suspicious, but their validity can't be proven, and I really can't see how the stuff in them would be of any use to Scientology in general. It is nice that you have an open mind, but if you really want to get the real scoop on the religion in general I suggest you go to one of the churches before you make up your mind.

I'm open to questions, but no flaming, plz.

;)

First off Phobo, I'd highly recommend for your own sake that you read through the entire Time Magazine article. Or you can read the one written by the Readers Digest in 1980:

http://www.skeptictank.org/readdig.htm

There is nothing in either article to indicate that they were inaccurately reporting the events surrounding the CoS. Next I'd recommend you talk with some people who have LEFT the organization so you can know what you can expect.

Noone who is actively involved in a cult believes they are in cult. People in cults are trained to not think objectively about the organization. Evidence of this can be seen in throughout your posts Phobo. Don't take this as a critisism, but an example of how you are subtely being influenced by them.

Phobo Quote "The articles you linked to are really irrelevant. They seem suspicious, but their validity can't be proven, and I really can't see how the stuff in them would be of any use to Scientology in general"

This is a CLASSIC example of a person who has put up blinders in thier mind to the truth about an organization they are involved with.

Phobo Quote "You could find problems, or you could find a great way to improve your life. It just depends on what you are looking for. I never said that there were any problems with the fundamentals and beliefs of the religion."

Isn't it the truth that ultimately matters?

You should at least allow yourself the freedom to ask Scientology the tough questions put forth by its critics. My next post is a Short summary of the fundamental beliefs of scientology.. If they are not completely transparent in there beliefs, that probably indicates they are hiding something.

[seewhatisunseen]

Introduction
Dianetics and Scientology were developed by pulp science-fiction author L. Ron Hubbard. Dianetics started as a "science of mind", a self-help therapy that was developed during the heady days of scientific advancement after World War II. Hubbard, through dubious research technique, used a crude lie detector ("electropsychometer" or "E-meter" [15]) to find "engrams" which he claimed caused many psychological ills. These engrams were found through a process called "auditing", wherein the subject answered questions while having their body resistance measured. The E-meter detects small changes in body resistance, which Hubbard claimed was caused by the movement of mental images being recalled by the subject.
Dianetics became a New Age "religion" when Hubbard's subjects began recalling incidents from past lifetimes. Hubbard reasoned that auditing Past Lives was dealing with an immortal spirit (or thetan as Hubbard called it), therefore Scientology was a religion. While Scientology publicly claims to simply be a brand-new deity-free philosophy (and therefore compatible with any religion), its roots can be traced to old-fashioned Middle Eastern spiritualism, occult magick, and gnosticism.

Prior studies by Scientology's apologists tend to limit themselves to analysis of the superficial information presented in Scientology's glossy brochures. A serious discussion of Scientology should include all significant beliefs.

Significant Beliefs
Clear Cognition. A major milestone in Dianetic auditing, which Hubbard claimed increased IQ, social skills and problem solving abilities. "Clear occurs when one stops mocking up bank [reactive mind, engrams], or realizes he is doing it." - HCOB Sep 24, 1978 IV

Goals Problem Masses. At one time a part of pre-OT3 auditing. Some of these GPMs are found in the Fishman Affidavit, which is available almost everywhere on the Web. GPMs were discontinued at the OT levels when Hubbard developed OT3.

Xenu. Revealed in OT3 ("very space opera") as the evil emperor of the Galactic Confederation who is responsible for most of Earth's problems. Nearest Christian equivalent is "Satan". Currently resides in an electronic trap inside a mountain.

Body Thetans [BTs]. Spirits of people killed by Xenu who were then given false memories (the R6 implant). These spirits, both individually and in clusters, plague the inhabitants of Earth. Nearest Christian equivalent is "demons". OT Levels 3 through 7 deal with exorcising BTs.

Operating Thetans. Scientologists who have been cleared of body thetans. Hubbard claimed they could control Matter, Energy, Space, and Time. Nearest Christian equivalent is "God".

OT End Phenomena. According to NOTs (New Era Dianetics for Operating Thetans, a collection of super-secret Scientology documents available for about $60 from the Swedish Justice Ministry), an Operating Thetan is "at cause" over Matter, Energy, Space, and Time. The OT also perceives their body to be transparent, since there are no BTs attached to it.

Hidden Practices
In its hidden beliefs and practices, Scientology differentiates itself from all religious belief systems. Hidden from public view are certain social-control practices such as:
Disconnection. Shunning. If the Scientologist chooses to leave the group, all other Scientologists who have social or business contacts effectively exile the departing Scientologist. In a xenuphobic, high-control group such as Scientology, the effect can be devastating. For example, a businessman who employs and sells to Scientologists loses both employees and customers, as well as many of their friends.

Suppressive Person Declarations [SP]. According to Hubbard, 2.5% of the population is completely insane and bent on the destruction of other people, as well as Scientology. If Scientology is able to "Clear the Planet", SPs will "be disposed of quietly and without sorrow".

Fair Game. Enemies of Scientology may be "lied to, tricked, injured, or destroyed." by other Scientologists. Ex-Scientologists may be declared SP, as well as Disconnected.

Potential Trouble Source [PTS]. A Scientologist who may be trouble for Scientology. A step on the road to SP. A PTS may not receive Scientology services, which prevent advancement on The Bridge (salvation), so finding the source of the trouble becomes a priority.

Rehabilitation Project Force [RPF]. The RPF is Scientology's Gulag for staff members who don't measure up to management's expectations. Human rights abuses are common.

Vilification of Psychiatry . Hubbard's "Science of Mind" was spurned by the medical community, but Hubbard imagined a conspiracy of evil reincarnating psychiatrists from other planets that have imprisoned Mankind for millenia. See www.cchr.org, the Scientology front group that will destroy psychiatry.

Introspection Rundown (IR). When a member suffers a psychotic episode (which can occur during auditing), the member is kept in isolation and forcibly restrained if necessary. The IR is the practice of psychiatry without a license. Lisa McPherson needlessly died while on the Introspection Rundown.

Purification Rundown. The stated purpose of the PRD is to remove accumulated toxins from the body. In reality, it is a a toxic dose of niacin, calcium, and magnesium coupled with the dehydration of running and saunas. Due to excessive niacin consumption, liver damage is an all-to-common occurrence. Dehydration and excess minerals disrupt the body's electrolyte balance.

Treatment of Children and Families. Scientology is more important than families. Children do not produce income for Scientology, and are treated as parasites. Sea Org parents see their children for one hour per day or less. If a Scientologist leaves Scientology, their spouse and children disconnect. Fair Game occurs during the divorce and child support arrangements. Several fathers have been jailed through Scientology's manipulation of the legal system.

E-Meter. The E-meter measures galvanic skin response (changes in skin resistance). In contrast, the so-called "lie detector" measures GSR and five other responses, and is still inadmissible in court. The E-meter may appear to lend scientific respectability to auditing, but it is completely inadequate for the task.

Sources
The source material used in this web includes:
HCOBs, HCOPLs, Books, and Lectures (Scientology "scripture") by L. Ron Hubbard.
Previously secret Advanced Technology, including the Operating Thetan(OT) and New Era Dianetics for OT Series, by Hubbard.
Various magazine articles and critical texts, including Bare Faced Messiah, by Russell Miller.
Various web pages.
Internet newsgroup alt.religion.scientology (hereafter, "a.r.s.") articles, various authors.

[Neserk]

the only real fraud i've seen are the t.v. evangelists who promise answered prayers for a donation...

BINGO! When Scientologists offer happiness and freedom from their lie dectectors (which is apparently what "the machine" is) and forces people to pay large amounts of money to use them and brow beats them into spending more and more money to continue there use, it is fraud. The machines don't fix anything. It is a sick psychological game.

[jsw]

Introduction
Dianetics and Scientology were ...

Phenomenal summary. Thanks!

[jsw]

and as far as defrauding goes...rarely have i been in a church when the offering plate wasn't passed. granted, it is not mandatory to give money in most situations...

It is not mandatory to give money in any church ceremony, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddist or Muslim of which I am aware. Feel free to correct me.

[seewhatisunseen]

BINGO! When Scientologists offer happiness and freedom from their lie dectectors (which is apparently what "the machine" is) and forces people to pay large amounts of money to use them and brow beats them into spending more and more money to continue there use, it is fraud. The machines don't fix anything. It is a sick psychological game.

What the CoS is doing is trying to convince people that they can save themselves (with the help of the CoS of course and this isn't cheap!). Compare this with Christianity..

Christ offered people the truth and salvation, but how did he do it? He taught them and HE paid the price by dying on the cross. He gave his life for them as a gift. What he considered "payment" was to simply love God, believe what he taught, and to love others. Isn't spiritual truth more beautiful and precious when its a gift offered out of genuine love for others?

[jsw]

ummm, maybe not so different...

according to today's l.a. times there are over 800 pending lawsuits against the catholic church in california alone. also, according to some recent research by a priest and 2 monks, the vatican has known about the problem of abuse for 1700( yes, 1700!) years...we're talking centuries of an unaddressed problem. anything that has knowingly occurred for that length of time could certainly be considered policy.

The actions and inactions regarding abuse are not defensible. Period. Granted. However, they certainly weren't condoned by the vast majority of at least lower-ranking clergy, and likely not by the majority of higher ones as well.

Regardless, the Catholic church - and just about any other religion - is open about all or the vast majority of their documents. They don't require money to "join". They don't require money to remain a member. They don't do anything to you when you leave. They don't try to convince you that all other religions are bogus. Some of those things, they did in the Middle Ages. Those are some of the reasons why there are Protestants.

[Chip NoVaMac]

It is a kind of pseudo-psychology. There is some basis in psychology for it, bio feed back machines are used and so is changing negative thought patterns.

Thanks for sharing your husbands look in to the CoS. What I gleen from this is that it is like many of the other "new age" sources of finding inner peace. Among some of the others that I question are Anthony Robbins, and Steven Covey. Worked for a couple of companies that subscribed to these systems.

What I felt is that Covey's Seven Habits was nothing more than Christian/Judaic beliefs wrapped in non-secular terms. Robbins' "power within" was even to strange for someone like myself that that was briefly involved with the Charismatic movement within the Catholic Church.

As I wrote privately to PP, I was not trying to dismiss his chosen church.

I just wrote to him just a few minutes ago, so I haven't gotten a response.

But what I do sense in the way this thread has gone, is that the CoS defies being able to be explained in a few paragraphs. Maybe it is much like some not being able to look past the fundamentalist Islamic or Muslim faith and some of what people feel are core beliefs. Not all subscribe to that depth of that faith.

[Chip NoVaMac]

whatever you find that gives you a peaceful form of spiritual strength and guidance is valid. if it's free or if it costs you money...seriously, who cares?

whether phobo wants to publically share his faith's doctrine cannot be used as a reflection of his faith's validity. CoS's tax status is not nearly as important as what it does to further his desire to find a better way to live.

every faith has a few skeletons in the closet so i'd be pretty careful about passing judgment.

Strong, valid points.

Maybe he saw the hand writing on the wall. Probably been through this all before. As I have shared around here, i think I know a thing or two about intolerance.

I want to apologize to PP if he feels that i was trying to pass judgment. For me I truly wanted a dialog here in the thread.

[Chip NoVaMac]

It is not mandatory to give money in any church ceremony, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddist or Muslim of which I am aware. Feel free to correct me.

Not mandatory, but they can put the "pressure" on you.

One church had parishioners testify about their prayers being answered. Some went as far as saying that once they started tithing to the church, their fortunes turned around. Their prayers had been answered.

[jsw]

Not mandatory, but they can put the "pressure" on you.

One church had parishioners testify about their prayers being answered. Some went as far as saying that once they started tithing to the church, their fortunes turned around. Their prayers had been answered.

That's just wrong. I don't mean you are wrong. I mean that practice is wrong.

It's fine to ask for donations. It's wrong to assert that giving money will result in answered prayers.

[Chip NoVaMac]

That's just wrong. I don't mean you are wrong. I mean that practice is wrong.

It's fine to ask for donations. It's wrong to assert that giving money will result in answered prayers.

That is why I have found a home in some singular Baptist churches over the years. I found a spiritual peace with the pastors, and inmost cases their Christian ministries were directed to the community they were in. And lets face ministries take money sometimes. Keep in mind that does not mean that they did not look towards other countries and their physical needs. I guess that is where I got the reinforcement that charity begins at home.

[Ugg]

My brother spent 17 years involved with the CoS. 16 of those years he worked for them. Last year he earned just under $600 from working for them. He left this spring with a debt of $60,000+. He is very secretive about his involvement, looks down on those who are not "clear" and has been so totally brainwashed that it is doubtful he will ever have a meaningful relationship ever again.

He worked on the New Era Productions facility in Riverside County. It is built like a medieval fortress and has enough firepower to give the US Army a run for its money. The walls are over 5 feet thick, it has self-contained water and electricity generation facilities and enough food to last a long. long time.

This organization is very scary, anybody who is seriously interested in getting involved in it should take a good hard look at the drones who support it, because that is what they want you to be if you don't have the thousands upon thousands of dollars to become one of them.

Anybody who deludes themselves into thinking this is a religion is seriously mistaken.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Anybody who deludes themselves into thinking this is a religion is seriously mistaken.

Sorry to hear about your brother, I can only guess at the pain that the family has shared.

But as I posted earlier, by definition, the CoS can be considered a religion. Evidently belief in a deity or deities are required.

[3rdpath]

Regardless, the Catholic church...snip

as i stated earlier, i'm not defending ( nor condemning) any faith. i used the catholic church as an example because it's been in the news here for a few years and today's article was easy to cite.

[Neserk]

ummm, maybe not so different...

?

What you are also missing is that the Catholic Church condemns such behvior, in Scientology it is part of the program. You could compare them if you were comparing it with a relgion that used abuse of children as part of its doctrinal practice!

[3rdpath]

What you are also missing is that the Catholic Church condemns such behvior, in Scientology it is part of the program. You could compare them if you were comparing it with a relgion that used abuse of children as part of its doctrinal practice!


the comparison was in reference to the number of lawsuits against CoS.
so yes, the comparison is valid.

centuries of condemnation isn't enough is it?

[takao]

the comparison was in reference to the number of lawsuits against CoS.
so yes, the comparison is valid.

centuries of condemnation isn't enough is it?

do you know how many of the 50 lawsuits were "against" CoS ? less than 10... all the other were started by _themselves_

and the CoS has around 5.000-15.000 members (the verfassungsschutz got a number of 6.000 for them).... for that few members they start a lot of law suits

[Neserk]

the comparison was in reference to the number of lawsuits against CoS.
so yes, the comparison is valid.



No because the comparison is you saying that Scientology is hunky-dory when it fact is not.

[3rdpath]

No because the comparison is you saying that Scientology is hunky-dory when it fact is not.

fine, i'll take another whack at this dead horse...

i never said CoS was hunky-dory...feel free to reread my posts for your edification. how you came up with that is beyond me.

i am so done with this thread.

[Neserk]

i never said CoS was hunky-dory...feel free to reread my posts for your edification. how you came up with that is beyond me.


This:
whatever you find that gives you a peaceful form of spiritual strength and guidance is valid. if it's free or if it costs you money...seriously, who cares?


And this is where you say all religions have skeletons in their closet and later liken the problems with the Catholic Church to those of CoS:

every faith has a few skeletons in the closet so i'd be pretty careful about passing judgment.

[seewhatisunseen]

Here is another great link.. some of L-Rons quotes are horrible...

http://ezlink.com/~perry/Co$/Christian/peik.htm

[3rdpath]

like a vulture drawn to the stench of a rotting carcass i return one last time to this thread to help you with your misinterpretations.

whatever you find that gives you a peaceful form of spiritual strength and guidance is valid. if it's free or if it costs you money...seriously, who cares?

meaning: i'm not going to judge someone elses path to spritual enlightenment.
example: my wife is a catholic. that faith is her path of choice. good for her. my acceptance of her path is not the same as a blanket endorsement( the hunky dory part...) by me. apply that to CoS and/or any other faith.

every faith has a few skeletons in the closet so i'd be pretty careful about passing judgment.

somehow i thought this wouldn't need an explanation...

ya know what? it doesn't.


edit: removal of bitter truth ;)

[Phobophobia]

Hey, I'm back for now.

Anyway, to clear some stuff up...
The "summary" of scientology was completely inaccurate. There were a couple quotes that were real, but most of it was either incorrect or made up. There is no "xenu". I had never heard of it before before reading this thread.

Here is a great page that explains a large part of theory (which works, I have had auditing) of Dianetics.

http://www.scientology.org/en_US/religion/description/dianetics/pg003.html

Have a great day.

[Laslo Panaflex]

I am not trying to offend anyone, but any "religion" that advocates ingnoring of "fallen" believers is not any group I want to be a part of. I find it hypocritical for Scientologists to do this when the reason for "fallen" believers to leave, may be in search some other religious belief, the same search that lead them to Scientology in the first place.

That's just me, but hey not everyone is like me, and some people may find this practice acceptable, not just the Church of Scientology.

[seewhatisunseen]

I am not trying to offend anyone, but any "religion" that advocates ingnoring of "fallen" believers is not any group I want to be a part of. I find it hypocritical for Scientologists to do this when the reason for "fallen" believers to leave, may be in search some other religious belief, the same search that lead them to Scientology in the first place.

That's just me, but hey not everyone is like me, and some people may find this practice acceptable, not just the Church of Scientology.


Oh they do a lot more than ignore them. They Go after them in a very evil kind of way.. read some of the quotes by ole L-Ron

http://ezlink.com/~perry/Co$/Christian/peik.htm

[jefhatfield]

like a vulture drawn to the stench of a rotting carcass i return one last time to this thread to help you with your misinterpretations.

whatever you find that gives you a peaceful form of spiritual strength and guidance is valid. if it's free or if it costs you money...seriously, who cares?

meaning: i'm not going to judge someone elses path to spritual enlightenment.
example: my wife is a catholic. that faith is her path of choice. good for her. my acceptance of her path is not the same as a blanket endorsement( the hunky dory part...) by me. apply that to CoS and/or any other faith.

every faith has a few skeletons in the closet so i'd be pretty careful about passing judgment.

somehow i thought this wouldn't need an explanation...

ya know what? it doesn't.


edit: removal of bitter truth ;)

i think if you look at the catholic church and the protestant reformation, historically, one can make a case that it's just as bad, if not worse, than the cos

there was a great deal of political struggle and quest for money in the old days of today's mainline churches...people went to war for those reasons and many innocent people were killed

but in the context of today, where the catholics and mainline protestants have settled into a spiritual role with using money only as a vehicle to support itself, the cos looks bad by comparison

it looks to me like the cos, at least right now, is about making money and using dubious tactics to hang onto their lucrative membership to keep the cash flow moving...and it appears it's for more than just to support itself

perhaps many demominations start very aggressively and eventually settle into an organization more concerned with spirituality instead of authoritative/repressive control with the goal of getting as rich as possible

today's cos, along with the jehovah's witnesses, the moonies, and some evangelical christian groups on a political fringe*, tend to operate more as a cult or "religious business" than an outlet for sprituality and growth



*i consider myself more on the moderate side of christianity with an evangelical point of view so i don't consider all evangelicals as destructive cults...politically extreme evangelicals like the christian identity movement, followers of reverend phelps, or the inner circle of writer/activist tim lahaye are definitely within the classic definition of a cult...and some say the big tv evangelists of the 80s were a cult, or at least suspiciously rich ;)

[pdham]

or the inner circle of writer/activist tim lahaye

I have read some of his books, including the Left Behind series, and am just curious as why you make that statement.

*Note: I am not disagree or agreeing with you, I am just wondering if you know something about his practices that I dont.

Paul

[jefhatfield]

I have read some of his books, including the Left Behind series, and am just curious as why you make that statement.

*Note: I am not disagree or agreeing with you, I am just wondering if you know something about his practices that I dont.

Paul

lahaye and, yes l. ron hubbard...great writers, no doubt

but they both have dubious cult connections...as we know l. ron hubbard invented dyanetics and the church of scientology and from this thread alone, there is a red flag that goes up due to possible cultic practices

lahaye, while just as sincere as l. ron hubbard in the search for truth and serenity, was involved in the bailout and proliferation of the cult (or religion, some say) of the reverend moon of korea

i have little tolerance for cults (though i agree that they have a right to exist in our free society) but i have less tolerance for fellow christians who take on cult practices and associations

also look at rev.fred phelps or the christian identity movement for something truly twisted and scary in the fold of christianity or psuedo-chritianity

when i first became a christian, one of the major christian pastors was the reverend jim jones, formerly of the respected chuch of christ *who i belonged to, and with his own breakaway denomination the People's Temple, where he enjoyed a meteoric rise

he befriended then president jimmy carter and his wife and got a big pr boost...but like many rising pastors, he got demented from his own fame and fortune and 900 followers ended up dead in the jungles of south america

when tim lahaye first got his rise in the christian-secular political alliance, george w bush made a point not to make the same mistake as former president jimmy carter and form any close white house bond with a controversial, yet popular religious leader

over recent months, bush has warmed up to lahaye and various friends, including cult leader moon, knowing that the white house needs to have religious friends in order to win in 2004...bush cannot rely just on moderate, mainline, and conservative christians and jews alone

...that being said, i condone religious freedom and diversity in america, and my definition of cult may not be your definition of cult, and hubbard and lahaye, as controversial as they both are among cult watchers, will always at the very least, be considered great writers...no matter what becomes of the fate of lahaye's extremist pre-millenial right wing tinged christianity and l. ron hubbard's celebrity endorsed dianetics

a great read concerning cults, in and out of christianity, is the book, Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Ralston Martin in hardcover or paperback which takes a neutral, yet evangelical view towards cults