Chevrolet Volt expected to get 230 MPG city!

[quagmire]

Today GM announced that using a draft of what the EPA will use to test plug in electric vehicles, the Volt is expected to get 230 MPG city.

WARREN, Mich. - The Chevrolet Volt extended-range electric vehicle is expected to achieve city fuel economy of at least 230 miles per gallon, based on development testing using a draft EPA federal fuel economy methodology for labeling for plug-in electric vehicles.

The Volt, which is scheduled to start production in late 2010 as a 2011 model, is expected to travel up to 40 miles on electricity from a single battery charge and be able to extend its overall range to more than 300 miles with its flex fuel-powered engine-generator.

"From the data we've seen, many Chevy Volt drivers may be able to be in pure electric mode on a daily basis without having to use any gas," said GM Chief Executive Officer Fritz Henderson. "EPA labels are a yardstick for customers to compare the fuel efficiency of vehicles. So, a vehicle like the Volt that achieves a composite triple-digit fuel economy is a game-changer."

According to U.S. Department of Transportation data, nearly eight of 10 Americans commute fewer than 40 miles a day http://tinyurl.com/U-S-DOTStudy .

"The key to high-mileage performance is for a Volt driver to plug into the electric grid at least once each day," Henderson said.

Volt drivers' actual gas-free mileage will vary depending on how far they travel and other factors, such as how much cargo or how many passengers they carry and how much the air conditioner or other accessories are used. Based on the results of unofficial development testing of pre-production prototypes, the Volt has achieved 40 miles of electric-only, petroleum-free driving in both EPA city and highway test cycles.

Under the new methodology being developed, EPA weights plug-in electric vehicles as traveling more city miles than highway miles on only electricity. The EPA methodology uses kilowatt hours per 100 miles traveled to define the electrical efficiency of plug-ins. Applying EPA's methodology, GM expects the Volt to consume as little as 25 kilowatt hours per 100 miles in city driving. At the U.S. average cost of electricity (approximately 11 cents per kWh), a typical Volt driver would pay about $2.75 for electricity to travel 100 miles, or less than 3 cents per mile.



http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=2&docid=56132

[rdowns]

Pretty impressive but I get the impression that this car is still a ways off. I'd be surprised if they move any big numbers of this model but the technology will sure help them.

[CorvusCamenarum]

I wouldn't want the first-gen models. Definitely a later model though when/if the technology becomes more proven outside a lab.

[yg17]

And how much CO2 is produced to generate the electricity to charge the thing?

And it's going to cost roughly $40,000. No way in hell would I spend 40 grand on a Chevy.

[Keebler]

And how much CO2 is produced to generate the electricity to charge the thing?

And it's going to cost roughly $40,000. No way in hell would I spend 40 grand on a Chevy.

exactly. i think for them to hit a home run, they need to sell this thing at a very affordable price. i know they're spending alot on R & D, but with the recession still hurting folks (even though it won't be supposedly out until next year), if they can slap a 'sale' price on it, more ppl would buy it I think (total guess).

The more volume, the higher sales possibly?

I do agree with the article that this is a game changer. You know the major players are working on similar vehicles. It would be neat to drive around most of the week without needing gas. Think of the reduction in smog for the larger cities.

Cheers,
Keebler

[danpass]

Lets see what type of mileage it gets according to the current EPA test matrix (which decently approximates real life).

[quagmire]

exactly. i think for them to hit a home run, they need to sell this thing at a very affordable price. i know they're spending alot on R & D, but with the recession still hurting folks (even though it won't be supposedly out until next year), if they can slap a 'sale' price on it, more ppl would buy it I think (total guess).

The more volume, the higher sales possibly?

I do agree with the article that this is a game changer. You know the major players are working on similar vehicles. It would be neat to drive around most of the week without needing gas. Think of the reduction in smog for the larger cities.

Cheers,
Keebler

It will have a $7500 tax credit making it a bit more affordable, but don't expect it to be Prius cheap anytime soon. The Lithium battery is expensive as hell and is the main force behind the $40K rumored sticker.

I would spend $40K on a Chevy( already do with our Suburban). I would spend $118K for one too( Corvette ZR1 :cool: ). But for you image conscious people, the Converj is nearly green lighted.

[sushi]

Interesting development or maybe I should say ongoing development. That mileage is wonderful if it can achieve it.

On the negative side, what is the cost for charging it? In this case, we may be swapping efficient gas use with less effective electricity generation, transmission and storage.

[quagmire]

Interesting development or maybe I should say ongoing development. That mileage is wonderful if it can achieve it.

On the negative side, what is the cost for charging it? In this case, we may be swapping efficient gas use with less effective electricity generation, transmission and storage.

As stated in the press release, it will cost a person about $2.75 per 100 miles of electricity.

[Tortellino]

On the negative side, what is the cost for charging it? In this case, we may be swapping efficient gas use with less effective electricity generation, transmission and storage.

Power generation is more efficient with the bigger power plants. The efficiency of the the steam generating power plants is around 35-50%. I don't know how much transmission of the power will consume, but I doubt it's a game changing amount. The internal combustion engines have average efficiency of 18-20%. If hybrids improve fuel efficiency by about 30% then you get 24-27% efficiency.

That's the cost. As far as the price goes, it has already been answered.

I would be more concerned about the load on the power grids when everyone plugs in at night. The existing grids in the US already fail during the Christmas lights seasons, and during heat waves due to A/C use. How many plugged cars can the grids handle?

[brad.c]

I wonder what the battery life is, and what the replacement cost will be. You may need to refinance before it's paid off.

But, I'm excited to see progress on alternative sources.

[quagmire]

I wonder what the battery life is, and what the replacement cost will be. You may need to refinance before it's paid off.

I believe GM is going to warranty the battery for 10 years/150,000 miles.

The battery will be kept between 30%-80% charge in order to prolong battery life.

[GSMiller]

Hopefully the batteries won't be manufactured by Sony (http://news.cnet.com/1770-5_3-0.html?query=sony+battery+recall&tag=srch&searchtype=news).

[quagmire]

Hopefully the batteries won't be manufactured by Sony (http://news.cnet.com/1770-5_3-0.html?query=sony+battery+recall&tag=srch&searchtype=news).

The battery is being made by LG Chem and made in the US.

[ZachsMacDaddy]

Looks like "fuzzy math" again.

Basically, you will be able to drive the Volt for about 40 miles using the lithium-ion batteries. For those driving less than that, gas mileage is essentially unlimited. It is only after 40 miles that the Volt will start using gas.

"Most Volt drivers will operate on a daily basis without having to use a single drop of gas," said Henderson, saying that three out of four drivers travel 40 miles or less a day.

Fuel economy for hybrid vehicles like the Toyota Prius is displayed in the same way as it is for any other gasoline-powered vehicle. It gets 46 mpg, for example, versus 19 mpg for a V-6 Ford Mustang.

That standard works because all the energy used by the Prius ultimately comes from burning gasoline. The Prius just uses that energy more efficiently than other cars do.

The Chevrolet Volt, on other hand, runs on electricity that comes from two sources -- a battery as well as a gasoline engine.

When gasoline is providing the power, the Volt might get as much as 50 mpg. But that mpg figure would not take into account that the car has already gone 40 miles with no gas at all.

So let's say the car is driven 50 miles in a day. For the first 40 miles, no gas is used and during the last 10 miles, 0.2 gallons are used. That's the equivalent of 250 miles per gallon. But, if the driver continues on to 80 miles, total fuel economy would drop to about 100 mpg. And if the driver goes 300 miles, the fuel economy would be just 62.5 mpg.

The Volt will need to be plugged in at night to recharge. The company said it estimates it will need 10 kilowatt hours for the recharge necessary to travel 40 miles. That should cost a total of about 40 cents at off-peak electricity rates in Detroit, Henderson said.

The EPA rating for the Volt is based on a draft report and applies to city driving. Henderson said GM is confident that when Volt's combined city/highway mileage average is calculated, it will be over 100 mpg.

But GM is obviously focused on the 230 mpg estimate as part of its early marketing campaign for the vehicle. It unveiled a logo with the number 230, with the zero looking like a cross between a smiley face and electrical plug.

[Gaelic2]

MPG?? Forget MPG! If you need to charge it for 8 hours on a 230 Volt dedicated line, then what does it get per mile figuring in the cost of electricity! No energy is free. To generate more electricity you need to burn more gas/coal and you are right back where you started! Simple physics folks. :cool:

[Drumjim85]

Looks like "fuzzy math" again.

its not fuzzy math, just marketing ... ya, if you drive 50 miles, you'll use very little gas, and get 230mpg.

the thing that sucks is the charge time. 10 hrs for only 40 miles?

[quagmire]

its not fuzzy math, just marketing ... ya, if you drive 50 miles, you'll use very little gas, and get 230mpg.

the thing that sucks is the charge time. 10 hrs for only 40 miles?

Or 3 hours for the 240 volt charging station.

And remember, it is only using 50% of the batteries capacity. It will be kept between 30%-80% charge.

[Rodimus Prime]

MPG?? Forget MPG! If you need to charge it for 8 hours on a 230 Volt dedicated line, then what does it get per mile figuring in the cost of electricity! No energy is free. To generate more electricity you need to burn more gas/coal and you are right back where you started! Simple physics folks. :cool:

The 8 hours charge would only be an issue if you are running at 120V. Most people who buy the Volt are going to get a little rewiring done to get a 240V plus in for it. I believe it going to cost 200 or so to get that rewiring done at ones home.

[Abstract]

Using the new EPA standards, the 230 MPG doesn't mean anything because there's nothing for me to compare it to.

It's far too easy to report a deceptively large value for mpg when the method devised favours this type of car. Perhaps the EPA favours this type of car, and want the discrepancy in mpg numbers to appear enormous.

Like Drumjim85 said, you'd use very little petrol over 50 miles. Well no kidding. You're not using any petrol over the first 40 miles.

[CorvusCamenarum]

Using the new EPA standards, the 230 MPG doesn't mean anything because there's nothing for me to compare it to.

It's far too easy to report a deceptively large value for mpg when the method devised favours this type of car. Perhaps the EPA favours this type of car, and want the discrepancy in mpg numbers to appear enormous.

Like Drumjim85 said, you'd use very little petrol over 50 miles. Well no kidding. You're not using any petrol over the first 40 miles.

I suppose a better estimate would be to know what the mileage is when the gas engine is going.

[techfreak85]

so thats what all those ads on Hulu have been about!
the ones with the green background with the 23 and the outlet(as 0).
the ads got changed today to say Chevy Volt...
i am actually impressed with that marketing.:eek:
maybe Obama's General Socialized Motors got some good stuff going!:p

[aethelbert]

I suppose a better estimate would be to know what the mileage is when the gas engine is going.
Well of course: "miles per gallon" of gasoline doesn't work if it's not using petrol.

[techfreak85]

they say (http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/autos/volt_mpg/?postversion=2009081108) it should cost 88 cents a recharge.:rolleyes:

[Sun Baked]

The fuzzy math of comparing electric cars to gas vehicles using MPG is fuzzy to say the least.

Fine and dandy for a vehicle to quote the number for a fully electric loop. But for hybrid owners, not really unless they make sure the consumer knows it is for a all electric loop.

Likely, like the Tesla, the EPA's MPG conversion should improve as the drive system is refined along with some program tweaks. For the Tesla, the jump was huge over the scattered release MPG numbers -- likely not going to be as big with the numbers on the Volt.

[sushi]

As stated in the press release, it will cost a person about $2.75 per 100 miles of electricity.
That is assuming all goes as estimated. :)

So for someone who commutes 40 miles a day, which means that they can stay on the electric side at 3 cents per mile, it would cost $1.20 per day or $6 per week. That sounds good.

I would be more concerned about the load on the power grids when everyone plugs in at night.
This is what I was referring to when I mentioned the cost.

If everyone starts using this type of car, the existing infrastructure would need to be upgraded to support charging our cars. This comes at a cost. I would expect electrical prices to rise to support the increase in infrastructure that would be required.

Personally, I like the idea of electrical cars. I am looking forward to the day that we are no longer dependent on oil like we are currently.

[Prof.]

And how much CO2 is produced to generate the electricity to charge the thing?

And it's going to cost roughly $40,000. No way in hell would I spend 40 grand on a Chevy.
I agree with the above statement. If I'm gonna spend 40k on a car, I'm gonna buy a car that has been proven to be reliable. A fully-loaded Prius. :cool:

[ntrigue]

I'd love to see a Nissan and Chevy electric vehicle available while Cash for Clunkers is still running.

[techfreak85]

And how much CO2 is produced to generate the electricity to charge the thing?

Well for us in the NW, it wont generate much. all hydro and wind power.;)
so that also means we have reasonably cheap power too.

[Antares]

I would be interested if they made a coupe version. I'm not a fan of sedans. I would also need to see how good the acceleration is. The faster the better. Sure it kills some mpg....but great acceleration is important.

The aesthetic design is nice too, which is a plus.

[jbernie]

The 230mpg is based on the vehicle being charged over night and the US DOT studies that show that 80% of Americans travel less than 40 miles per day, GM extended it to 50 mpg probably so that they are forced to use some gas and get an actual MPG number and not just infinity.

Your total mpg # per trip will change as you go beyond the initial 40 miles of electric only power.

- Your (electric) power costs may vary.
- Your total mpg will vary depending on how far you drive per day.
- The mpg number provided is an accurate representation of what the average person can expect to see when they charge the vehicle daily and drive less than 50 miles per day.

The Volt makes a difference as you can potentially own the vehicle and never put gas in it, but unlike the claims of the Electric only vehicles, the Volt uses an internal combustion engine to power the generator, not the wheels, and does so at the optimal RPM to gain the optimal fuel economy of the engine.

Should you need to go further than the all electric range, you don't need to rent another vehicle, nor do you need to own a 2nd vehicle to go further. The Volt can be recharged at any gas station in the world in a few minutes as you fill up the gas tank. No need to wait X hours to recharge at an outlet if you can find one. You get all the benefits of an EV with the range of a normal vehicle.

I don't doubt for any moment that the Volt is not for everyone, but there are an awful lot of people out there who can find this setup perfect for them. If I could plug in at my condo complex the Volt would be perfect. My total weekly commute distance is under 28 miles. Surely you anti-Volt people can desire the benefits of not needing to top up with gas?

As to the recharging, have a 240v (?) outlet setup in yoru garage at home, put a simple timer on the outlet that will turn on at 2am and off at 6am and you car is charged automatically in the middle of the night, no need to charge during peak hours in the evening.

[bbotte]

I'm buying one to give Dubai the finger.

[killr_b]

I think GM can do better.

http://www.rasertech.com/media/videos/the-electric-h3
^^Like this. Buy these fools already GM!

[Phazotron]

so thats what all those ads on Hulu have been about!
the ones with the green background with the 23 and the outlet(as 0).
the ads got changed today to say Chevy Volt...
i am actually impressed with that marketing.:eek:
maybe Obama's General Socialized Motors got some good stuff going!:p

Yes, once Obama took office they were just soooo inspired that they designed and built this car in 8 months.

I do hope you were being sarcastic. I'm getting a little tired of everyone's credulous attitude towards that particular politician.

[Rodimus Prime]

Yes, once Obama took office they were just soooo inspired that they designed and built this car in 8 months.

I do hope you were being sarcastic. I'm getting a little tired of everyone's credulous attitude towards that particular politician.

My gut tells me that he believe Obama policy is what made the volt come out.

Never mind the fact that the batteries for the Volt finished up a year ago or the 2 years wear and tear test that simulated 10 years worth of use to them. Or the years this car has spent in development. Or never mind the fact that it was announced over a year ago and it was targeted for a late 2010 model or a 2011 model.... All this while Bush was in office BEFORE the huge spike in gas prices.....

As for me the Volt has my attention but I will hold off buying one until I at least own a house to charge it at. Apartment living and plug in Hybrids do not mix to well.

[Counterfit]

I'm gonna buy a car that has been proven to be reliable. A fully-loaded Prius. :cool:
Toyota hasn't been that great in that area in the last few years either...
I would be interested if they made a coupe version. I'm not a fan of sedans. I would also need to see how good the acceleration is. The faster the better. Sure it kills some mpg....but great acceleration is important.

The aesthetic design is nice too, which is a plus.

Electric motor = great acceleration from a stop.

[question fear]

I wonder about a few things with electric cars:

1) Presumably you'd have to own your own home or have a condo/apartment complex that was very understanding about extension cords...

2) Which also makes me wonder how realistic this is for long trips (not long commutes, but for a vacation/road trip.) And if it is totally depleted on the electric side, what does the MPG number run at?

3) Can it recharge somewhat while driving like the Prius? If it could "go hybrid" for times when plugging in isn't realistic then it becomes a lot more practical.

And I can't help but imagine the look on the night clerk at a no-tel motel when someone motors up in their Volt with an extra-long extension cord and asks where to plug it in.

[MacNut]

This car also isn't good for people that live in severe weather areas when the power goes out regularly. Good luck explaining to the boss why you can't make it to work because the car didn't charge.

[quagmire]

This car also isn't good for people that live in severe weather areas when the power goes out regularly. Good luck explaining to the boss why you can't make it to work because the car didn't charge.

That is if they always keep the gas tank empty. :rolleyes: Then it becomes their fault.

[mkrishnan]

3) Can it recharge somewhat while driving like the Prius? If it could "go hybrid" for times when plugging in isn't realistic then it becomes a lot more practical.

As I understand it, the Volt and all the other plug-ins can function like low storage requirement hybrids (what the Prius is) except that they do it in a purely serial fashion. That is, the Volt can, as I understand it, in principle be used for its whole life without ever plugging it in. It wouldn't get any 237 MPG -- as I understand it, it would put out pretty Prius-ey numbers used that way, or perhaps even worse.

As for the charging issue, there has been talk about ways to provide public charging but they're pretty nascent right now -- basically, you almost need a garage to be able to do this in the US, and at the very minimum off-street parking and your own external plug-points. For instance, I even live in an upper floor duplex, and I have an external entrance on the first floor and off street parking, but I'm not sure I have an external power outlet that's metered to me.

Honestly, I think a few things need to happen --

- First, in fairness the no-charging scenario mileage should be tested and listed for these cars so they can be compared to LSR's and non-hybrids

- Second, the 200+ MPG numbers need to be basically put on hold until other plug-ins come on the market. When a customer is shopping the Leaf and Volt, I think the numbers are a valid comparison.

- Third, I'm really honestly softening up on the idea of these vehicles, but there absolutely needs to be a pro-active commitment to pair the roll-out of these vehicles with increasing the amount of renewable, clean energy production on the grid. That's not just for environmental reasons -- if a significant number of Americans for instance start driving HSR hybrids, the actual overall consumption of electricity will be impacted significantly. Even at the level of these projected $1-3/100 mile cost estimates, AFAIK those cost estimates do not really take into account the cost impact of increased grid burden.

The situation would be different if we were some Scandinavian country that was on track to have an abundance of green energy production -- they should adopt this like gangbusters. If we adopt it, we have to adopt the whole package and not just the HSR hybrids....

But I used to say I thought HSR's were just completely irresponsible without talking about green grid energy, and so this is still a softening from my earlier view.

[question fear]

Thanks, MKrishnan! That answered my main questions...makes sense that they'd HAVE a non-plugin mode, but since it isn't being talked about it's hard to gauge what that means. It would suck to go from 230MPG to 20MPG because you couldn't charge it...:eek:

[mkrishnan]

Thanks, MKrishnan! That answered my main questions...makes sense that they'd HAVE a non-plugin mode, but since it isn't being talked about it's hard to gauge what that means. It would suck to go from 230MPG to 20MPG because you couldn't charge it...:eek:

Another way to think about it is that the Volt wouldn't be able to drive long distances at all were this not true (as is the case for electric vehicles). Think about it this way. If the gas powertrain could not fill the battery up quicker than it is drained or at least close to as quickly as it is being drained, then it would run out of power mid trip. Also things like the scenario of not having a charge in the morning and not being able to use the car are what made EVs so problematic in the first place -- the whole point of these plug-in hybrids was to overcome those limitations.

But I think the estimates (examples in the comment section (http://www.ecnmag.com/article-chevy-volt-gets-230-mpg-081109.aspx)) are that the Volt and other plug-ins should be reasonably competitive with the top of non-plug-in vehicles (e.g. the Prius, Insight, Fusion Hybrid) when running off gasoline.

The rub is not that you cannot do this. AFAIK, talk of the Volt being rendered unusable because of a power outage, etc, are just fear mongering. The rub is that if you do do this with much frequency, you're wasting your money (And the environmental costs associated with building a vehicle like the Volt in the first place), as outside of the projected low mileage sort of use pattern, the Volt is not really better than a Prius, Insight, etc, that cost a lot less. Basically you can use the Volt like you would any other car, but the more you're able to charge it from the wall and drive it short distances, the more efficient it becomes in terms of its overall value equation, both economically and, potentially, environmentally.

EDIT: Sorry for the drawn out posts... :o One last thought is that the design of the Volt gives the engine a big advantage over the engines in cars like the Prius and Fusion hybrid. In those cars, the engines have to provide torque and work at all kinds of different speeds and respond to the resistance from the road. The engine in the Volt just powers up and starts charging the battery -- it can have a relatively simple design because all it needs to do is spin at one frequency with a standard resistance on the other end.

[ftaok]

2) Which also makes me wonder how realistic this is for long trips (not long commutes, but for a vacation/road trip.) And if it is totally depleted on the electric side, what does the MPG number run at?

At least for the Volt, the gas engine generator will give you the equivalent of 35 MPG. That was based on the assumption that the gas tank is/was 8.5 gallons combined with GM's claim that you could drive 300 miles once the engine fires up.

[jbernie]

1) Presumably you'd have to own your own home or have a condo/apartment complex that was very understanding about extension cords...

That is correct, even then I am sure there are plenty of older houses through out the USA where people will not be easily able to plug in. i.e. on street parking only. Regardless you can still own/drive a Volt and run it without the 40 mile electric only range but you would more likely see around 50-60mpg (Prius or Insight numbers) than the higher numbers being mentioned. This is due to the need to use gas to recharge the batteries 100% of the time.


2) Which also makes me wonder how realistic this is for long trips (not long commutes, but for a vacation/road trip.) And if it is totally depleted on the electric side, what does the MPG number run at?

There are two types of electric vehicles... you have the pure Electric Vehicle (EV).. think the Nissian Leaf.. which only runs when charged and has no internal combustion engine to provide some form of backup power. You then have Extended Range Electric Vehicles (EREV).. think the Chevy Volt... where you have battery power and an alternate form of power that can be used as well.

In the case of the Volt, it is always powered (to the wheels) by the batteries/electric motors however the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) is there to recharge the generator, and it does so at the optimal rpm of the engine. Where as with a normal car the RPMs go all over as you accelerate, break & cruise, the electric motors in the volt handle that and the ICE just powers the generators at a constant optimized level to get even better fuel economy.

In addition, one thing that is not really mentioned about the Volt and the GM Voltec platform is that the fuel source can be anything, gas, hydrogen, fuel cells, e85, etc, obviously with the appropriate storage tank :). The electric portion just needs a power source. So as time progresses and maybe we do get the "hydrogen highway" that gets talked about GM can release Volts that use hydrogen instead of gasoline.


3) Can it recharge somewhat while driving like the Prius? If it could "go hybrid" for times when plugging in isn't realistic then it becomes a lot more practical.

see above, the range of the Volt is 40 miles electric PLUS another 300 or more miles when using the ICE to recharge the batteries. In the case of the Nissan Leaf and there "367mpg" number, its 367mpg but only a range of maybe 40-60 miles. Should you want to drive across country in the Volt you will just stop at a normal gas station, refill the gas tank and continue on your way. You do not need to recharge every day or every 40 miles to make use of the vehicle.

And I can't help but imagine the look on the night clerk at a no-tel motel when someone motors up in their Volt with an extra-long extension cord and asks where to plug it in.

Well... so long as you are at a motel on the first floor or so you can probably just run the cable into the room. As we move more towards volume production of vehicles that use electric power you will no doubt start seeing the hotel chains offering recharge stations of some description for travellers. Though you would only have slow charging if you used an in room power source as it is 110v not the 240v needed to do the 3 hour charge.

Edit: Although all are Hybrids, Toyota's "Hybrid Synergy Drive" for the Prius etc and the Honda Insight are Parallel Hybrids and the Chevy Volt is a Series Hybrid.

[quagmire]

The gas generator doesn't charge the battery, it powers the electric motors. The battery just becomes dead weight sitting at 30% charge. There is regenerative braking and an optional solar panel on the roof to help charge the battery, but plugging it in will be the fastest way to recharge it. ;)

[NoSmokingBandit]

And how much CO2 is produced to generate the electricity to charge the thing?

Precisely. Is it going to be marketed as "green" or "low fuel costs"? Either way, its not gong to work. Energy has to come from somewhere and you are either going to pay at the pump or on your electric bill. Im sure its more efficient than a plain gasoline engine, but tricking your customers into thinking you can jump from 35mpg to 230mpg with no repercussions is just lame.

[quagmire]

Precisely. Is it going to be marketed as "green" or "low fuel costs"? Either way, its not gong to work. Energy has to come from somewhere and you are either going to pay at the pump or on your electric bill. Im sure its more efficient than a plain gasoline engine, but tricking your customers into thinking you can jump from 35mpg to 230mpg with no repercussions is just lame.

As stated, it will be roughly $2.75 every 100 miles to charge the Volt. Hardly a strain on the consumers wallet.........

[jbernie]

Precisely. Is it going to be marketed as "green" or "low fuel costs"? Either way, its not gong to work. Energy has to come from somewhere and you are either going to pay at the pump or on your electric bill. Im sure its more efficient than a plain gasoline engine, but tricking your customers into thinking you can jump from 35mpg to 230mpg with no repercussions is just lame.

Your electric bill doesn't go up a few $$ a gallon if we have a war in the Middle East, or a Hurricane in the Gulf etc. Although the cost of electricity can vary it is more constant than gas prices which can spike/drop quickly due to the nature of where most of the oil supplies used are located and refined and method in which it is paid for... or so we are told :rolleyes:

For those who do the electric only power.... vs a traditional gas only vehicle. 40 miles is at least 1 to 1.5 gallons per day. So at $2.45 odd for the low grade here in Denver, you are looking at $2.45 to $3.67 per day in gas vs a few hours at 10c per Kw/h. Yes it does move the cost from one area (gas station to electric bill) but if you are dropping $2-3 per day out of your gas costs those savings will add up over time.

And for the other arguement... if you are going to buy a new vehicle... you could go and buy some cheap small car and get very good mileage and maybe pay less over the life of the vehicle, but in saying that, are consumers really truely going to cross shop a Chevy Volt vs a Kia Rio? The Volt isn't some stripped down absolute basic car. You would be more likely to cross shop at least a Prius, if not something higher if you are willing to spend $32.5k-40k on a vehicle (low number assumes tax breaks).

[Rodimus Prime]

Your electric bill doesn't go up a few $$ a gallon if we have a war in the Middle East, or a Hurricane in the Gulf etc. Although the cost of electricity can vary it is more constant than gas prices which can spike/drop quickly due to the nature of where most of the oil supplies used are located and refined and method in which it is paid for... or so we are told :rolleyes:

For those who do the electric only power.... vs a traditional gas only vehicle. 40 miles is at least 1 to 1.5 gallons per day. So at $2.45 odd for the low grade here in Denver, you are looking at $2.45 to $3.67 per day in gas vs a few hours at 10c per Kw/h. Yes it does move the cost from one area (gas station to electric bill) but if you are dropping $2-3 per day out of your gas costs those savings will add up over time.

And for the other arguement... if you are going to buy a new vehicle... you could go and buy some cheap small car and get very good mileage and maybe pay less over the life of the vehicle, but in saying that, are consumers really truely going to cross shop a Chevy Volt vs a Kia Rio? The Volt isn't some stripped down absolute basic car. You would be more likely to cross shop at least a Prius, if not something higher if you are willing to spend $32.5k-40k on a vehicle (low number assumes tax breaks).


You kw/Hr number is little low if you are using 10 cents. I have not seen power that cheap for a while. I was paying below market rates at 11 cent per Kw/Hr and during last summer prices spike in this area up to 17-20 cent per Kw/Hr. Either way it still works out to be a hell of a lot cheaper to buy electricity than gas even at today's prices

[jbernie]

You kw/Hr number is little low if you are using 10 cents. I have not seen power that cheap for a while. I was paying below market rates at 11 cent per Kw/Hr and during last summer prices spike in this area up to 17-20 cent per Kw/Hr. Either way it still works out to be a hell of a lot cheaper to buy electricity than gas even at today's prices

Quite likely... no idea what my rate is.. but regardless... when we saw gas spiking towards $5 last year I don't electric rates were going that way at the same time.

Long term concern is that we see a concerted effort to move over to vehicles that require some form of electric charging (many years away though) but we don't make any efforts to improve the electric grid to allow for this and we are caught well short in being able to support these vehicles.

I believe though that assuming people are primarily doing overnight off peak recharging we should be ok for some time grid wise as demand drops overnight and the increased demand from vehicle charging can help the power stations as they can run at a more constant level of production which makes them more efficent.

[Prof.]

Toyota hasn't been that great in that area in the last few years either...
Meh. I still trust Japanese engineering more than I do American.

[quagmire]

Meh. I still trust Japanese engineering more than I do American.

Sadly, perception lags behind reality.......

[Counterfit]

Meh. I still trust Japanese engineering more than I do American.

So get a Subaru. :p :D

[quagmire]

So get a Subaru. :p :D

And still give Toyota my money? No thanks. :D :p

[Rodimus Prime]

- Third, I'm really honestly softening up on the idea of these vehicles, but there absolutely needs to be a pro-active commitment to pair the roll-out of these vehicles with increasing the amount of renewable, clean energy production on the grid. That's not just for environmental reasons -- if a significant number of Americans for instance start driving HSR hybrids, the actual overall consumption of electricity will be impacted significantly. Even at the level of these projected $1-3/100 mile cost estimates, AFAIK those cost estimates do not really take into account the cost impact of increased grid burden.


Well even if the demand for power increases because of the plug in hybrid you have to remember that most of that demand will be during off peak hours so the grid will easily be able to handle it and extra pollution created by the power planets in producing the extra power during off peak times will still be lower than what those same cars would produce if they ran off there own engines.

The power planets produce power more efficiently than cars and they can do more filtering on any pollution that comes out of the planet therefor reducing it even more.

[mkrishnan]

Well even if the demand for power increases because of the plug in hybrid you have to remember that most of that demand will be during off peak hours so the grid will easily be able to handle it and extra pollution created by the power planets in producing the extra power during off peak times will still be lower than what those same cars would produce if they ran off there own engines.

The power planets produce power more efficiently than cars and they can do more filtering on any pollution that comes out of the planet therefor reducing it even more.

I don't necessarily disbelieve this, but can you please provide your source with a quantitative analysis? I've only ever seen this assertion made -- never seen it backed up.

[SilentPanda]

Well even if the demand for power increases because of the plug in hybrid you have to remember that most of that demand will be during off peak hours so the grid will easily be able to handle it and extra pollution created by the power planets in producing the extra power during off peak times will still be lower than what those same cars would produce if they ran off there own engines.

How would they be plugged in during off peak hours? People get off work and get home about the same time (hence rush hour) and shortly thereafter are turning on their computers, TV's, cooking dinner, etc. So people get home roughly the same time plug in their cars and turn on their house....

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/07/31/business/20080801-metrics-graphic.html?scp=3&sq=infographic&st=cse

I guess they could work around this by installing something in peoples houses that would let you say "hey I need my car charged by 7am so do it sometime between now and then" to distribute the load... but still.

[sushi]

1) Presumably you'd have to own your own home or have a condo/apartment complex that was very understanding about extension cords...
Please excuse me, but your comment brought to mind a large parking lot with extension cords run all over the place. Funny scene.

Okay, back to reality. When we transition to this type of system, you would have chargers built into the parking areas. So it would just be a matter of connecting a cord to your car.

I don't necessarily disbelieve this, but can you please provide your source with a quantitative analysis? I've only ever seen this assertion made -- never seen it backed up.
Agree. Please provide a source.

How would they be plugged in during off peak hours? People get off work and get home about the same time (hence rush hour) and shortly thereafter are turning on their computers, TV's, cooking dinner, etc. So people get home roughly the same time plug in their cars and turn on their house....

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/07/31/business/20080801-metrics-graphic.html?scp=3&sq=infographic&st=cse

I guess they could work around this by installing something in peoples houses that would let you say "hey I need my car charged by 7am so do it sometime between now and then" to distribute the load... but still.
Interesting idea.

Maybe each sub area of the grid would have a car recharging scheduling computer. As you say, you put in the specifics and the computer works to level the charging drain on the grid.

Who knows, maybe someday we'll have roads that have some sort of electric charging ability that your car can plug into.

[ftaok]

How would they be plugged in during off peak hours? People get off work and get home about the same time (hence rush hour) and shortly thereafter are turning on their computers, TV's, cooking dinner, etc. So people get home roughly the same time plug in their cars and turn on their house....

I guess they could work around this by installing something in peoples houses that would let you say "hey I need my car charged by 7am so do it sometime between now and then" to distribute the load... but still.

Actually, I've read where the car's computer can do the scheduling for you. Let's say that you come home at 6PM and plug the car in. You don't need it until 6AM. The computer will determine how long the car needs to charge and start charging at the appropriate time, all the while, assigning priority to the time of day. So it determines that it needs 5 hours of charging time (and maybe an hour for the battery to cool off. So at midnight, the charging starts.

It's really a simple algorithm and would probably cost next to nothing to implement. I'm sure the car's computer is powerful enough to calculate the optimal charging schedule.

[Rodimus Prime]

How would they be plugged in during off peak hours? People get off work and get home about the same time (hence rush hour) and shortly thereafter are turning on their computers, TV's, cooking dinner, etc. So people get home roughly the same time plug in their cars and turn on their house....

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/07/31/business/20080801-metrics-graphic.html?scp=3&sq=infographic&st=cse

I guess they could work around this by installing something in peoples houses that would let you say "hey I need my car charged by 7am so do it sometime between now and then" to distribute the load... but still.

Well while that part is true 60% of the power demand is all Heating and cooling and of that cooling is a largest power . And peak cooling demand always comes during the hottest part of the day (1-4) which is while people are at work. The grid is designed to handle peak power usage which always happens during the summer months and always during the hottest part of the day. So again not a problem.

Also it is going to be heavy industries that suck up more power than any one living at home which again mainly happens during the work day (8-5). So even everyone coming home and plugging in at 6pm still not going to spike power during the power peak during the middle of the day.

All that cooking TV light on is nothing compared to what lets say commercial companies use and at night there power usage drops.

So even if everyone did that like I said it would be during off peak hours so the grid would have zero problem handling it.

[mkrishnan]

So get a Subaru. :p :D

I wonder if Subaru can meet its goal of putting its hybrid on the market in 2012. There need to be more options in the space of more fuel efficient crossover / SUV type vehicles like the Escape hybrid.

[Rodimus Prime]

I don't necessarily disbelieve this, but can you please provide your source with a quantitative analysis? I've only ever seen this assertion made -- never seen it backed up.

which part.

The part about power planet producing less polution, or car charging during off peak hours.

Off peak hours is simple and really should not require proof. Power demand is generally always the highest during the summer months between the hours of 1-4 (hottest part of the day) and plus if you look at commercial billing rates for power they have 2 billing rates, Peak and off peak hours. Off peak is a hell of a lot cheaper.

Also just looking at the laws of thermo dynamics will show you why power planets are much more effenice. It is the fact they run hotter. A lot hotter. than a car so the theoretical max efficiency out of a power planet is going to be better. On top of that power plants waste less of the heat engery that cars because of the multiple turbine set up designed to pull power as the temp. of the steam drops as it moves though the different turbines. That makes them much more effeminacy.

Then compare an electric motor to a combustion motor. Electric motors run at about 90% effeminacy on today's standards with a theoretical max of 99.99% This compared to a cars at roughly 40% with a theoretical max of around 50-60% that and car motors waste a lot of that power. Electric motors do not idle like a combustion motor plus have a much smoother power curve. Lb for lb electric motors produce more power so that means you have less weight for the same power out put so less power is wasted on moving the motor. So again more power savings.

Lastly you can put better air pollution controls at a single point and much easier to control pollution if it comes from a single point.

[mkrishnan]

Electric motors run at about 90% effeminacy on today's standards with a theoretical max of 99.99%

Wait, you're saying that motors are lacking in masculinity now and will become even more girly in the future? :confused:

I understand your theoretical argument, but I don't think it's fair because power plants use neither the same fuel sources nor the same energy conversion cycles as internal combustion engines. Also a lot of work has been done to scrub emissions from cars. There are "clean coal" plants, but AFAIK they don't represent the majority of power production in the US. Theoretical arguments are all fine and good -- what I'm asking for is if anyone has any empirical evidence that switching this fuel consumption from gasoline in cars to coal / whatever (some of "whatever" is renewable and some of the gasoline is made from renewable ethanol too, but I mean in an overall sense) in power plants is actually a net improvement in CO2 emissions, etc.

[Rodimus Prime]

Wait, you're saying that motors are lacking in masculinity now and will become even more girly in the future? :confused:

I understand your theoretical argument, but I don't think it's fair because power plants use neither the same fuel sources nor the same energy conversion cycles as internal combustion engines. Also a lot of work has been done to scrub emissions from cars. There are "clean coal" plants, but AFAIK they don't represent the majority of power production in the US. Theoretical arguments are all fine and good -- what I'm asking for is if anyone has any empirical evidence that switching this fuel consumption from gasoline in cars to coal / whatever (some of "whatever" is renewable and some of the gasoline is made from renewable ethanol too, but I mean in an overall sense) in power plants is actually a net improvement in CO2 emissions, etc.


Ah that what you want. Again goes back to a basic understanding of a power planet. In the US the main types are natural gas and coal power planets.

Natural gas is cleaner burning than gas we put in our car. Coal again you have the scrubbers for the planet and only a single point to deal with. Not the cars on the road. Plus cars are much more limited on what they can do to scrub them. Compared that to a power planet which does not have the same weight restrictions on it. Plus when you factor in all the types of power in the US again problem solve because over time we are going to switch to other types of power.


As for eletric motor part I think you miss understood that. Electric motor are currently 90% efficiency. That means if you put in 100W of electricity you will get out 90W of power with a theoretical max of 99.99W per 100W in. That is a far cry from the combustion motors which you get 40W out today for every 100W in.

The other part is lb for lb electric motors can put out more power.

As for better CO2 it comes down to this, Power planets are greater effeminacy than car engines. That means less CO2 out put per mile. A power planet can and will produce a 100W power for less CO2 than a car.

[mkrishnan]

As for eletric motor part I think you miss understood that.

That, sir, was a quip. ;) And I got an A+ in thermodynamics, thank you very much. :p But once again, I clearly asked for quantitative, empirical data, and you keep responding with more logical arguments. I'm not saying the logical arguments are wrong, but I am saying the system is more complicated than you're giving it credit for, and I don't think a logical argument based on second year undergraduate thermodynamic efficiency estimates is really as good as actual data on the full-process environmental impacts comparing when gasoline is made from crude oil and burnt, say, in a PZEV automobile, to produce, say, 1 kWh or 1000 J or whatever unit of energy in comparison to when a modern gas or coal plant is used for the same purpose.

[ChrisA]

And how much CO2 is produced to generate the electricity to charge the thing?

Zero if you live near a nuke or hydro plant.

Even if the power comes from coal, the coal plants turn about 80% of the fuel into power where as a gasoline engine turns about 20% of the fuel into power the rest goes into heating air.

One other thing. And this really is a big factor. The electric cars can recover some of the energy used to accelerate and drive up hills. If you drive in a circle always to up hill and down hill evens out to zero. yur acceleration and deceleration will add together to make zero also. in theory the electric car should only have to use enough power to overcome friction. Energy recovery, I'm sure is not even close to this except with the regenerative brakes. But still my point is the overall amount of energy used cal be quite a bit less with electric so there is more to it then just grams of carbon per killowat hour, the number of KWHs is reduced.

Oh, and one more thing... or the most part the electric car is NOT using imported energy most of the money spent is recycled domestically.