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MacBytes
Jun 23, 2004, 08:54 AM
Category: News and Press Releases
Link: Euro iTunes downloads hit 800,000 (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20040623095403)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

macridah
Jun 23, 2004, 09:01 AM
that's what I'm talking about. I'm sure mycokemusic, napster, or whatever service in europe never had a week like iTunes had in their first week.

very nice.

Bear
Jun 23, 2004, 09:17 AM
So much for the worry that iTunes had to play catch up in the UK and Europe.

I wonder what'll it be like when the rest of the countries in Europe can buy from iTMS?

irmongoose
Jun 23, 2004, 09:42 AM
This makes all the other stores look pathetic. And it also shows how big iTunes has become. Surpassing the closest competitor by so much... it's simply amazing. If Apple listens to the Europeans and gets those indie artists into the store, it's just going to keep on soaring.


irmongoose

Some_Big_Spoon
Jun 23, 2004, 09:45 AM
iTunes is such a success that the only logical conclusion is.. the raise prices to $5.99 a download!!

woo hoo!!

Fender2112
Jun 23, 2004, 09:47 AM
Wow, Talk about opening up a can of whipass. :D

sushi
Jun 23, 2004, 09:48 AM
Category: News and Press Releases
Link: Euro iTunes downloads hit 800,000 (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20040623095403)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug
Fantastic news!

Glad to see iTMS continuing to expand.

Sushi

Fiveos22
Jun 23, 2004, 09:48 AM
Does anyone have the numbers for how this opening week compares to the ITMS mac debut week and the ITMS windows debut week?

This seems like its a bit on the low side...but maybe I'm just jaded.

Maxicek
Jun 23, 2004, 09:49 AM
Hopefully the success will persuade the indie labels to sign up.

Steamboatwillie
Jun 23, 2004, 09:53 AM
Yes! Wow! Holy Shmegdeggly! :) :) :)

Grimace
Jun 23, 2004, 09:53 AM
The labels that didn't want to sign on initially better listen to this news. This proves that legal downloads ARE good business. Now, Apple needs to get iTunes fully globalized.

Sayer
Jun 23, 2004, 09:54 AM
The Indies refused Apple's terms, it wasn't really Apple's "fault" that they didn't sign. Both parties simply did not reach an agreement.

It is, quite frankly, Apple's game and thus Apple's rules.

If its all about the music to the Indies, then why are they even trying to get into the iTMS?

In reality they could substantially increase their market reach via the iTMS and totally bypass the expense and complexities of distribution via CD.

Apple (Jobs) *wants* the Indies, but the terms are Apple's to set because it is their store and they must maintain a balance between making it viable and offering content that as many people as possible want to buy.

The Indies will come around, or get pushed out of the way by those who are willing to play Apple's game. Thats how the market economy works.

jared_kipe
Jun 23, 2004, 09:56 AM
Did we sell 700,000 in one year over here in the states?

Raiden
Jun 23, 2004, 09:58 AM
This dispells some of the uneasiness feelings I have had since sony connect and napster and whatnot entered the scene. I have been worried they would overtake itunes, but with this news, obviously itunes is the best!

azdude
Jun 23, 2004, 09:58 AM
Did we sell 700,000 in one year over here in the states?

Try 70,000,000

eazyway
Jun 23, 2004, 09:58 AM
Does anyone have the numbers for how this opening week compares to the ITMS mac debut week and the ITMS windows debut week?

This seems like its a bit on the low side...but maybe I'm just jaded.


ITMS music stores hit 1 million in the first week. May 2003. Nov 6 2003 iTMS sold 1,5 M songs in a week, (after the windows release)

So the 800K compares very well. It takes time for everone to know it there and to get set up etc.

jholzner
Jun 23, 2004, 09:59 AM
Did we sell 700,000 in one year over here in the states?

Nope...we sold 75,000,000 in the state in one year. But it's a much larger market.

svenas1
Jun 23, 2004, 10:00 AM
Does anyone have the numbers for how this opening week compares to the ITMS mac debut week and the ITMS windows debut week?

This seems like its a bit on the low side...but maybe I'm just jaded.

It was over a million songs in the US (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2003/may/05musicstore.html) after the initial introduction. The Windows version was launched in October, and in the first week of November, Apple sold 1.5m songs. Good thing Apple keeps up its /pr sites..!

So, this is not as big as in 03, but I gather there are more Macs running OSX in the US than there are in GB/F/D together (maybe now you can dig out those figures ;-) )

Neat,
Sven

EDIT: woah, three people posting the numbers within 10 minutes...
we sure know our numbers... ;-)

JFreak
Jun 23, 2004, 10:01 AM
I wonder what'll it be like when the rest of the countries in Europe can buy from iTMS?

right. no reason to talk about itms europe just yet - the euro store will be opened in october. for now, it is itms UK&france&germany and while the three make about 35% of european population, THEY ARE NOT EUROPE. or even the eu.

stop talking about itms europe being operative, because it isn't.

AmigoMac
Jun 23, 2004, 10:03 AM
Nice to be part of this success ... ;)

nagromme
Jun 23, 2004, 10:09 AM
Wow--this IS big. Comparisons to the US launches aside, Apple was late to Europe AND STILL beats competitors by so much.

Imagine if/when those important indies are there. That lack was supposed to hurt UK sales--and I'm sure it did... that's why they "only" sold 450k there :D

And FYI, it's the indies being greedy--they want the option to raise iTunes prices after 6-12 months if their music sells well. OD2 and Napster gave them that in their contract, but Apple wants to keep pricing steady and won't even let the BIG labels do that. Thus, no deal--and the bad press about Apple being the greedy ones (which makes no sense with their business model anyway) was simply false speculation:

http://macobserver.com/article/2004/06/16.1.shtml

I'm sure the indies will come around soon now! How much money did they lose in one week?

Also, note the phrase "over 700,000 songs in each country". At first, people were saying that Apple had 700,000 songs TOTAL for all three, but only about 300,000 each. Now we know that's NOT the case, even if the catalog took hours (why?) to become fully available.

markoibook
Jun 23, 2004, 10:11 AM
This is great news - a very positive response from the UK.

But apple needs to make a bigger impact in the UK. Lots of people over here are unfamiliar with Apple's products and services.

They need to do advertise more about the music store. Granted the new iPod ad has been on quite a bit - but why not advertise the music store too?

It would also be nice to see Apple team up with newspapers and magazines to give away a free track, and to also Apple support music programmes on TV. For example, what about iTunes sponsoring some music events, or TV programs???

More advertising would certainly blow the competition out of the water!!!

mklos
Jun 23, 2004, 10:14 AM
Does anyone have the numbers for how this opening week compares to the ITMS mac debut week and the ITMS windows debut week?

This seems like its a bit on the low side...but maybe I'm just jaded.

Apple sold over 1 Million songs in its first week of operation, but remember that the US has over 280 Million people. France, Germany, and the UK don't even that many combined. Add that to the fact that some of the major tracks over there aren't on the ITMS yet. So 800,000 songs in the first week is very good. I think just like the US ITMS, people will see how easy it is and they will begin to like it so they will starting using it more and more so that 800,000 number will probably go up in the weeks to come.

djdarlek
Jun 23, 2004, 10:18 AM
Nope...we sold 75,000,000 in the state in one year. But it's a much larger market.


hmmm, so 75 million tunes sold to US market in a year.
UK purchases total roughly 1/2 million in a week. Estimated at 26 Million songs a year.

So is the UK is 2.8x smaller that the US???????? I'm sure my math is wrong
somewhere along the line, but can someone please see my point? the UK is FAR smaller than the US.. how can these figures be right?

DGFan
Jun 23, 2004, 10:20 AM
hmmm, so 75 million tunes sold to US market in a year.
UK purchases total roughly 1/2 million in a week. Estimated at 26 Million songs a year.

So is the UK is 2.8x smaller that the US???????? I'm sure my math is wrong
somewhere along the line, but can someone please see my point? the UK is FAR smaller than the US.. how can these figures be right?

Because the 75 million US included a time when iTMS was only available on Macs. IIRC they are now at a rate that exceeds 75 million per year.

JFreak
Jun 23, 2004, 10:25 AM
Apple needs to get iTunes fully globalized.

how about itms euro store first? sheesh, apple dropped it on this one. as if leaving us without ipod minis was bad enough... how angry one needs to be before things change? we already have high taxes here (making apple products really exclusive items), we don't need delays to add to the suffering.

i'm however happy that apple announced the 0.99eur/song pricepoint which i was hoping for. for that price i will buy a good many songs when the euro itms is finally opened four months from now.

the only thing that would make this situation more bearable would be that when the ipod minis are finally available in europe before christmas, they would be revB units that have something extra that would be well worth the waiting. bigger hard drive, airport straming to airport express, fixed headphone plug issue which is a no-brainer really, longer battery life, even more color choices... something to make me smile, or all of them.

---

(or even a reasonable price tag. currently the middle regular ipod costs half the average net salary after the taxes (!) and you get the picture when you imagine the thing would cost a few thousand us dollars. yeah? it's not a wonder that the ipods haven't reached every teenager's pockets in here.)

cheekyspanky
Jun 23, 2004, 10:27 AM
There's 60 million people in the UK, 60 million in France and 80 million in Germany. So 200 million overall, which means the American market isn't that much bigger!

Also US store 1 million songs bought in the first week and 280 million people = 1 in 280 people bought a song.

UK 60 million people and 450,000 songs bought = 1 in 133 people bought a song.

So the people saying Apple isn't well known in the UK..well how does that work?! :)

johnnyjibbs
Jun 23, 2004, 10:29 AM
who voted negative?

This is extremely good news. They've blasted the competition - including big names like Coke, Virgin, Microsoft, Napster, etc. The first week was amazing, especially in the UK - to have nearly half the downloads of the US store in its first week (which admitedly was Mac-only then) yet only having 20% of the population of the US.

I'd be interested to know if there has/will be a boost in iPod sales over here because of this. They're certainly selling like hotcakes even without iTMS.

These numbers are massive! They've caught up with over 6 months of all the other download stores in one week in the UK!!!!!!

nsb3000
Jun 23, 2004, 10:30 AM
that's what I'm talking about. I'm sure mycokemusic, napster, or whatever service in europe never had a week like iTunes had in their first week.

very nice.

Ya...right. Well, I was hoping the number would be a little higher, still it is a good start.

EDIT: Now that I read the story...OMG! 16 times more than OD2! Go Apple!

zebra451
Jun 23, 2004, 10:31 AM
Now if only Steve would fork over the $$$ and buy the complete Beatles catalog!

Stella
Jun 23, 2004, 10:32 AM
800,000 is damned good. The US store sold a million, but as someone rightfully pointed out, the populaion of the US is vastly higher than the combined population of UK, Germany and France.

However, the test is the sales figures for the coming months... hopefully it just wasn't a first week popularity spike...

go Apple go!

djdarlek
Jun 23, 2004, 10:33 AM
There's 60 million people in the UK, 60 million in France and 80 million in Germany. So 200 million overall, which means the American market isn't that much bigger!

Also US store 1 million songs bought in the first week and 280 million people = 1 in 280 people bought a song.

UK 60 million people and 450,000 songs bought = 1 in 133 people bought a song.

So the people saying Apple isn't well known in the UK..well how does that work?! :)


Thanks for making sense of what i was trying to say earlier :D

nsb3000
Jun 23, 2004, 10:33 AM
iTunes is such a success that the only logical conclusion is.. the raise prices to $5.99 a download!!

woo hoo!!


Come on..they will never do that. I do think, that at some point there is going to a be a more complicated price structure than all songs for .99, (Some would be cheaper, some would be more expensive). I mean can you guys think of any other market with such a flat pricing structure? I sure can't.

johnnyjibbs
Jun 23, 2004, 10:34 AM
Ya...right. Well, I was hoping the number would be a little higher, still it is a good start.
iTMS UK has sold as many songs in its first week as all the others in the UK have since they've existed to date, just about. What more do you want?

By the way, Napster UK only launched last month, but MyCokeMusic.com and a host of others have been here for a good 6 months or more. So I'd say it's quite embarrasing for all the competitors.

It also just shows that many Windows users must have downloaded iTunes. Can't wait until every HP comes with it preinstalled.

vknid
Jun 23, 2004, 10:35 AM
I can't stop giggling. I don't know why, but I think it may have something to do with the last line.

"With these figures, the Euro iTMS beat it's closest competitor OD2 with 16 times as many sales in the same period."

LOL! Awesome. :D

caveman_uk
Jun 23, 2004, 10:35 AM
There's 60 million people in the UK, 60 million in France and 80 million in Germany. So 200 million overall, which means the American market isn't that much bigger!

Also US store 1 million songs bought in the first week and 280 million people = 1 in 280 people bought a song.

UK 60 million people and 450,000 songs bought = 1 in 133 people bought a song.

So the people saying Apple isn't well known in the UK..well how does that work?! :)
The US-launch was Mac-only. The UK launch was for both PC and Mac.

csimmons
Jun 23, 2004, 10:36 AM
iTMS UK sold more tracks per capita in it's first week than iTMS US did. That's VERY impressive.

I think the Germany numbers should have been a little bit higher, though. OTOH in Germany, not as many people have broadband connections as in the UK. iTMS still sold more downloads than any of it's competitors over here, which is cool. :D

JINX
Jun 23, 2004, 10:36 AM
my mistake.

JINX

Sabbath
Jun 23, 2004, 10:37 AM
There's 60 million people in the UK, 60 million in France and 80 million in Germany. So 200 million overall, which means the American market isn't that much bigger!

Also US store 1 million songs bought in the first week and 280 million people = 1 in 280 people bought a song.

UK 60 million people and 450,000 songs bought = 1 in 133 people bought a song.

So the people saying Apple isn't well known in the UK..well how does that work?! :)

I think we in the UK historically buy a lot of music. However I'm suprised we buy anywhere near as much as the Americans online, considering Apple isn't as well known, and I don't think as large a percentage of people use the internet for such recreational purposes. Adfditionally I think we buy more from indies than Americans, yet we have less indies in the store.

However I think you are using the wrong figures, as 1 million is for mac only iTMS launch not the windows one. So youre losing the windows user sales and even if you use the windows first week you lose the first week effect on mac users and just get an average mac week. I guess the figures will have worked themselves out in a few months.

X-Baz
Jun 23, 2004, 10:38 AM
Given the UK population is so much smaller than the US and that the range of selection on the UK store appears (to me at least) to be much less than the US store, 450K is very impressive indeed.

cheekyspanky
Jun 23, 2004, 10:39 AM
The US-launch was Mac-only. The UK launch was for both PC and Mac.


Okay..fair point!

Whats the best week on the US store though with Mac and Windows?

FriarTuck
Jun 23, 2004, 10:41 AM
Never underestimate the power of Hasselhoff (http://www.hellonetwork.com/demo/toysclub/video.asp?speed=hook300).

voodoofish
Jun 23, 2004, 10:41 AM
There's 60 million people in the UK, 60 million in France and 80 million in Germany. So 200 million overall, which means the American market isn't that much bigger!

Also US store 1 million songs bought in the first week and 280 million people = 1 in 280 people bought a song.

UK 60 million people and 450,000 songs bought = 1 in 133 people bought a song.

So the people saying Apple isn't well known in the UK..well how does that work?! :)

Apple is mainly known for the iPod rather than the computers, most people forget about the computers when they hear they don't run windows.

voodoofish
Jun 23, 2004, 10:44 AM
iTMS UK sold more tracks per capita in it's first week than iTMS US did. That's VERY impressive.

I think the Germany numbers should have been a little bit higher, though. OTOH in Germany, not as many people have broadband connections as in the UK. iTMS still sold more downloads than any of it's competitors over here, which is cool. :D

I think it's because over here, whenever there's any news coverage of the iPod, they always blab on about how amazing the US iTMS is to try and pad the story out, so the store was met with alot of expectation over here, whereas in the US it was kinda a new idea so people didn't really know if it would be any good/do well or not.

virividox
Jun 23, 2004, 10:47 AM
NICE thats pretty impressive for asuch a short period

csimmons
Jun 23, 2004, 10:52 AM
The US-launch was Mac-only. The UK launch was for both PC and Mac.

In the week of the iTunes for Windows launch, the iTMS sold 1.5 million downloads.

gekko513
Jun 23, 2004, 10:56 AM
iTMS UK sold more tracks per capita in it's first week than iTMS US did. That's VERY impressive.

I think the Germany numbers should have been a little bit higher, though. OTOH in Germany, not as many people have broadband connections as in the UK. iTMS still sold more downloads than any of it's competitors over here, which is cool. :D
I think it's got more to do with advertisment than with broadband connections. (Is broadband that much bigger in the UK anyway?)

azdude
Jun 23, 2004, 10:57 AM
In the week of the iTunes for Windows launch, the iTMS sold 1.5 million downloads.

Yes... and our most active week was 3.3M

macridah
Jun 23, 2004, 10:57 AM
I just realized that iTunes Europe is not even available in all of europe. iTunes will be available in most of, or all of Europe in Oct. Imagine what the numbers will be like then. This is only if steve could keep his oct promise. ;)

rjwill246
Jun 23, 2004, 11:04 AM
Their headline is likely to be "Apple iTMS Europe misses the goal of 40 billion downloads in its first day."

whooleytoo
Jun 23, 2004, 11:05 AM
And FYI, it's the indies being greedy--they want the option to raise iTunes prices after 6-12 months if their music sells well. OD2 and Napster gave them that in their contract, but Apple wants to keep pricing steady and won't even let the BIG labels do that. Thus, no deal--and the bad press about Apple being the greedy ones (which makes no sense with their business model anyway) was simply false speculation:

http://macobserver.com/article/2004/06/16.1.shtml


It was the Indies themselves that said the major labels here can raise their prices if Apple does, but the Indies aren't being given that option.

Considering Apple probably had to argue them all down to that price anyway (relative to the other Euro stores), it would be something of a kick in the teeth for Apple to say "but now we are free to raise our prices as we wish, you can't raise your's for 3 years".

nsb3000
Jun 23, 2004, 11:13 AM
Their headline is likely to be "Apple iTMS Europe misses the goal of 40 billion downlads in its first day."

Ya, you got to love thier constant negative spin on all things Apple.

takao
Jun 23, 2004, 11:21 AM
anybody has seperated numbers of germany/france... haven't seen any of those

would be interesting to see if the higher percentages of mac users and credit card owners in france would compansate for the 20 million people difference.....

Wonder Boy
Jun 23, 2004, 11:21 AM
just wait till the ipod minis hit the streets. things should pick up then ;)

Machead III
Jun 23, 2004, 11:23 AM
This is great, and pple are dong a great job, but they don't seem to understand how they could quite simply dominate the enitre UK if they used some of the HUGE cash reserves to flood the TV and publications with adverts.

When it comes to advertising in the UK, Apple should be repeatedly shot in the face, they are idiotically not realising it is one bloody easy way to EXPLODE sales over here.

billyboy
Jun 23, 2004, 11:24 AM
The uk is the second biggest music market in the world. Get Japan on board, the third biggest, and iTunes is in business. Spain has more pirates than anywhere I know, so they will probably sell 80 tracks in their first week.

nsb3000
Jun 23, 2004, 11:25 AM
This is great news - a very positive response from the UK.

But apple needs to make a bigger impact in the UK. Lots of people over here are unfamiliar with Apple's products and services.

They need to do advertise more about the music store. Granted the new iPod ad has been on quite a bit - but why not advertise the music store too?

It would also be nice to see Apple team up with newspapers and magazines to give away a free track, and to also Apple support music programmes on TV. For example, what about iTunes sponsoring some music events, or TV programs???




I can see it now. The iTunes annual Music Awards! :eek: (Just what everyone needs, another awards program....)

If such an event were to be held, I wonder whether Steve would ware a Tux or his patented Jean and turtle neck outfit?

usarioclave
Jun 23, 2004, 11:28 AM
In reality they could substantially increase their market reach via the iTMS and totally bypass the expense and complexities of distribution via CD.

Apple (Jobs) *wants* the Indies, but the terms are Apple's to set because it is their store and they must maintain a balance between making it viable and offering content that as many people as possible want to buy.

The Indies will come around, or get pushed out of the way by those who are willing to play Apple's game. Thats how the market economy works.

Exactly. The Indies are ignoring a distribution channel that's proving to be relatively popular.

The indies are worried that their margins will be less, and that in the end iTMS will "own" the music market, not just the download market. While strategic concerns are nice, the reality is that iTMS sales are marginal compared to music sales overall. The Indies would make more money at less cost by selling via iTMS, and would not cannibalize their CD sales.

What the Indies are probably saying is "hey, I can make x from selling it myself, but only make y if I sell via iTMS. Why should I?" And that's true, if you look at just revenue. If you look at the cost of each, though, iTMS is almost free.

But expecting Music industry people to do math is like asking, well, Music industry people to do math. Analytical thinking isn't their strong point by far.

nagromme
Jun 23, 2004, 11:29 AM
Here are some non-UK numbers based on cheekyspanky's rough population #s (US=280M, UK=60M, F=60M, D=80M). And on US iTunes' first Windows week, 1.5M songs (which I know has more than doubled as people have gotten into it more--which may happen in Europe too). And on today's PR (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/jun/23itunes.html) re 800k sold in the first week in Europe, including 450k in UK (meaning 350k in France + Germany). That's 16x OD2 (choice of Coke and of Microsoft) in the UK (not in Europe as a whole). And it's MORE than 16x Napster, who trails OD2. Even though those Microsoft WMA services have had time to "catch on" and iTunes is in its first week! Anyway...

US Win launch: 1 song for every 186 people
UK launch: 1 song for every 133 people
France/Germany: 1 song for every 412 people
Average for all three European stores: 1 song for every 250 people

nagromme
Jun 23, 2004, 11:32 AM
it would be something of a kick in the teeth for Apple to say "but now we are free to raise our prices as we wish, you can't raise your's for 3 years".

Apple is NOT raising iTunes prices. That's been clearly announced, aside from how obivously it would be a bad strategy. The big labels WANTED to, but it won't be happening.

Savage Henry
Jun 23, 2004, 11:36 AM
Man, that sure knocks my 600 thou estimate into a cocked hat, being a full 33% short.

Now I realise the UK is hot for iPods, but I wouldn't have expected us guys to pull in well over half the entire downloads, so that surprised me as well.

And then my third surprise was outscoring OD2 by 16 times.


It's good to be the King :D

itsa
Jun 23, 2004, 11:38 AM
The Indies refused Apple's terms, it wasn't really Apple's "fault" that they didn't sign. Both parties simply did not reach an agreement.

It is, quite frankly, Apple's game and thus Apple's rules.

If its all about the music to the Indies, then why are they even trying to get into the iTMS?

In reality they could substantially increase their market reach via the iTMS and totally bypass the expense and complexities of distribution via CD.

Apple (Jobs) *wants* the Indies, but the terms are Apple's to set because it is their store and they must maintain a balance between making it viable and offering content that as many people as possible want to buy.

The Indies will come around, or get pushed out of the way by those who are willing to play Apple's game. Thats how the market economy works.

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about! There are TONS of indies on itunes.

BaDBoY
Jun 23, 2004, 11:39 AM
wow... thats alot. makes all those other companies go "whered we go wrong?"

THey are proabably rethinking their marketing strategies.

patmcfar8
Jun 23, 2004, 11:41 AM
Just for the record:

USA: 293,563,000 (today)

Germany: 83,251,851 (July 2002 est.)
UK: 59,030,000 (Revised Census 29 April 2001)
France: 59,329,691 (July 2000 est.)

So basically, we have about 91 million more people.

Frankly I'm really impressed by the first weeks numbers of the European iTMS. Wait until they expand to the rest of the countries and add more Indie music. The future looks bright...:)

EDIT: Btw, here's a pretty cool site for the US census... http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/popclock

whooleytoo
Jun 23, 2004, 11:43 AM
Apple is NOT raising iTunes prices. That's been clearly announced, aside from how obivously it would be a bad strategy. The big labels WANTED to, but it won't be happening.

The point is, Apple aren't contractually bound to keep their prices static. Their verbal assurances aren't worth the paper they're not written on. (How's your 3GHz G5 coming along? ;) ) I don't believe Apple WILL raise their price, and I certainly don't believe they should, but they can.

To me, it's as much about parity of esteem as money. Indies just want the same deal they believe the major labels are getting. Sounds fair enough to me - especially since that was one of the assurances Jobs gave at a previous music event for Indies in the US.

TRiPod
Jun 23, 2004, 11:49 AM
which dumbasses rated this 'negative?'

m4rc
Jun 23, 2004, 11:51 AM
According to CIA Factfiles latest population for UK and US is 293,027,571 for US, 60,270,708 UK, meaning US is 4.86 times the size. So in UK 450,000 tracks purchased first week, times by the population difference is 2,187,000, so nearly 2.2 million. I know it is not that simple as there is so much more to take in than just pure population, but its a good average. I also know that the UK launch was for windows and Mac, but take the launch of the Mac version in the US - 1 million - and the windows version (when Mac users will still have purchased) - 1.5 million - and you have a total of 2.5 million, not too far off the UK's 2.2 million (worked out for population difference).

JFreak - you are of course right that this was just Germany, France and UK and not Europe, but even though those 3 countries make up just 35% of the population of Europe they equate for 60% of all european music sales. Finland has a population of 5.2 million so when the Finland iTMS is launched you need to beat 38,826 downloads to be at a similar to the UK. With those numbers though you can surely see why Finland has had to be delayed slightly seeing as they can't launch the whole of Europe together, they have to go with the bigger markets.

pgwalsh
Jun 23, 2004, 12:02 PM
Now if only Steve would fork over the $$$ and buy the complete Beatles catalog!That would be cool. He'd have to do it personally and not through Apple because of legal reasons... But it would be cool.

He might want to do it before Sata....er Bill Gates or Balmer does it.

I think the simplicity of iTunes attributes to it's success. I've used other players, but iTunes is just better, period.

Charko
Jun 23, 2004, 12:03 PM
The fact that over half the 800 thousand were bought in Britain is explained by the number of iPods there - proportionate to the population probably more than in the US.
Whereas in Germany (where I live) the iPod hasn't really taken off. I've never seen an iPod in Berlin although there're a few around.
In a way this is good news. Germany always follows the US/UK trends, if somewhat belatedly. I believe iPod sales are about to soar here.
Charko

whooleytoo
Jun 23, 2004, 12:05 PM
which dumbasses rated this 'negative?'

Napster CEO.. OD2 CEO...Cokemusic.com CEO...

asif786
Jun 23, 2004, 12:06 PM
That would be cool. He'd have to do it personally and not through Apple because of legal reasons... But it would be cool.

He might want to do it before Sata....er Bill Gates or Balmer does it.


Yeah, is it Micahel Jackson that has the exclusive rights to the beatles catalogue?

Jacko is a bit short of cash at the minute too, while stevie isnt...

Savage Henry
Jun 23, 2004, 12:06 PM
I don't believe Apple WILL raise their price, and I certainly don't believe they should, but they can.



I agree.

But the download volume comparatives would certainly have been interesting had the prices been identicle.

crap freakboy
Jun 23, 2004, 12:07 PM
Sony and BMG merger is given the green light by the 'EU suit mountain'. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3817655.stm) Does this suggest Sony are going to try and claw back some ground from Apple's dominance of net-music-downloads by buying large chucks of the music industry. Then having those artists appear exclusively on Sonys own download store? Or am I seeing shadows where there are none?

<edit- just read the article in full>
quote "A Sony-BMG merger would create a new force in the global music industry with a roster of talent that includes Aerosmith, Beyonce, Britney Spears, and George Michael.

It would be equivalent in terms of market share to the current sector leader Vivendi Universal, outweighing EMI and Warner Music.

The Sony-BMG merger still faces a competition inquiry in the US."

I suppose if they get the go-ahead in the US(mmmm...lets ponder...I'd say instant green light once the brown envelopes of cash have all been exchanged), they could tie plenty of those artists fans into the Sony encoded MPblah-blah-what-ever-its-called as well as the Sony brand MPblah players.

SeanMcg
Jun 23, 2004, 12:09 PM
Since Apple's goal with iTMS is to sell more iPods, then the iPod advertising seems to be doing the job quite well, judging by comments here and the dominance of the iPod sales in the UK. "iPod sightings" are quite common now.

I'm sure word-of-mouth will help, too. How many of you have shown off your iPod as eagerly as you would pictures of your kid? Somewhere in that discussion, iTunes comes up.

Apple has done a wonderful job with these two products. The iPod requires iTunes, and the Store is just too tempting. iTunes makes you want to have something just as cool to play your music.

jholzner
Jun 23, 2004, 12:10 PM
I'm not sure what you guys are talking about! There are TONS of indies on itunes.

I think they are refereing to the UK indie labels and not US.

nsb3000
Jun 23, 2004, 12:34 PM
Exactly. The Indies are ignoring a distribution channel that's proving to be relatively popular.

But expecting Music industry people to do math is like asking, well, Music industry people to do math. Analytical thinking isn't their strong point by far.

You could make a similar augment that if they lowered the price of CDs, they would make less per item, but would sell many more. I think that if CDs (Or their online-counterpart) were between $5-$7, sales would go through the roof. But will the music industry do the Math? Of course not..

ccuilla
Jun 23, 2004, 12:39 PM
right. no reason to talk about itms europe just yet - the euro store will be opened in october. for now, it is itms UK&france&germany and while the three make about 35% of european population, THEY ARE NOT EUROPE. or even the eu.

stop talking about itms europe being operative, because it isn't.

a) France and Germany are European countries.

b) I thought Steve said 62% of the population.

c) France and Germany are European Union members.

ThomasW
Jun 23, 2004, 12:40 PM
I also think that 800,000 tracks is really impressive. Here in Germany, noone knows Apple. Those people who do know Apple think that Apple is bankrupt or will be bankrupt in the very near future. At most 10% know that Apple still makes competitive computers and the iPod. Apple NEVER broadcasts commercials on TV, and they have poster advertising in 2 or 3 cities. iPod marketshare of all new MP3 players in Germany: less than 10%.
So I think it's surprising that Apple has sold 800,000 tracks. However, they sold more tracks in the UK (population: about 60 million people) than in France and Germany combined (population: about 140 million people), even though the price is much higher in the UK. That shows that Apple has a lot to do in Germany and France, especially in Germany. They should really have TV commercials so that people see that there is a company called Apple which is not bankrupt. :D

csimmons
Jun 23, 2004, 12:43 PM
a) France and Germany are European countries.

b) I thought Steve said 62% of the population.

c) France and Germany are European Union members.

To point b):

Steve said that the UK, France, and Germany make up 62% of European music sales, so it's quite important to hit them with iTMS first, even if it's not quite fair to the other EU member states.

JFreak
Jun 23, 2004, 12:47 PM
a) France and Germany are European countries.

b) I thought Steve said 62% of the population.

c) France and Germany are European Union members.

a) yes, but they are not the europe. and texas is not the usa.
b) steve is an american and tends to think there are more people in the usa than really is. and for some reason americans tend to look down on europeans. the three are definetely not more than half of the european population, even if i had too small a figure.
c) yes, but again, texas is not the usa.

talk about euro store when it is open. currently, there are three stores in european countries, but that is not the euro store that was promised. maybe we can think of this as a "product announcement" waiting for "product release" for half a year as usually. this will be good for apple, but the rest of the europe feels burnt now. oh well, we don't even have mini ipods yet. we can wait, right? no. we are customers, we should be treated well.

csimmons
Jun 23, 2004, 12:48 PM
The uk is the second biggest music market in the world. Get Japan on board, the third biggest, and iTunes is in business. Spain has more pirates than anywhere I know, so they will probably sell 80 tracks in their first week.

Actually, the UK is the 3rd largest market; US is 1st, Japan is second.

The sad thing: six years ago, GAS (Germany-Austria-Switzerland) was the 3rd largest market in the world, behind the US and the UK. :eek:

JFreak
Jun 23, 2004, 12:51 PM
JFreak - you are of course right that this was just Germany, France and UK and not Europe, but even though those 3 countries make up just 35% of the population of Europe they equate for 60% of all european music sales. Finland has a population of 5.2 million so when the Finland iTMS is launched you need to beat 38,826 downloads to be at a similar to the UK. With those numbers though you can surely see why Finland has had to be delayed slightly seeing as they can't launch the whole of Europe together, they have to go with the bigger markets.

yes, good for apple, but the rest of the europe feels burnt anyway. i was aware of the reality of having a hard time to get even this, but for some reason i had hopes on europe-wide release in the first place. something i would have expected apple could do - something that nobody else could have even tried.

oh well... when will we have our mini ipods?

greg75
Jun 23, 2004, 12:53 PM
And FYI, it's the indies being greedy--they want the option to raise iTunes prices after 6-12 months if their music sells well. OD2 and Napster gave them that in their contract, but Apple wants to keep pricing steady and won't even let the BIG labels do that. Thus, no deal--and the bad press about Apple being the greedy ones (which makes no sense with their business model anyway) was simply false speculation:

http://macobserver.com/article/2004/06/16.1.shtml

Yes, the indie labels are trying to screw Apple by demanding the same terms that Apple offers the big labels :rolleyes:

From YOUR LINK:
Executives representing some of Europe's major independent labels confirmed to The Mac Observer Tuesday that while Apple refused a shorter contract length and no price review option, it apparently negotiated such a deal with Vivendi Universal SA's Universal Music, one of the world's largest record labels.

"It's our understanding Apple agreed to a two-year contract with Universal and agreed to re-visit royalty pricing every six months," one executive who asked not to be identified, told TMO. "Why couldn't they agree to a similar deal with us?"

steadyeddie
Jun 23, 2004, 12:54 PM
a) France and Germany are European countries.

b) I thought Steve said 62% of the population.

c) France and Germany are European Union members.

c) The UK is an EU member, too... ;)

takao
Jun 23, 2004, 12:55 PM
Actually, the UK is the 3rd largest market; US is 1st, Japan is second.

The sad thing: six years ago, GAS (Germany-Austria-Switzerland) was the 3rd largest market in the world, behind the US and the UK. :eek:

shows that the ultra arrogant phonoverband were succesfull in promoting their own business down through the floor
funny that in those countries copy protected cds are widly used (and complained about) ....hm..._I'm_ not surprised that their sales completly broke apart.....

JFreak
Jun 23, 2004, 12:59 PM
Spain has more pirates than anywhere I know, so they will probably sell 80 tracks in their first week.

finland has a lot of music piracy, too, but does that mean itms will fail in these countries? no. it only states that the cd and single prices are just so ridiculously high in here, and only few people are buying. how do you feel about a price point of 5 euros for a single? no go. or 25 euros for a new hit album? no go there either. people either wait for it going "mid-price" and buy it if they remember it at that point. and because so many hit albums are so easy to forget, even the mid-price sales are not so good.

of course there are always people like me who like to buy the music that is worth listening to, but the vast majority of each nation tends to buy the cheapest, or not buy at all.

i suspect the itms will bring single-cd sales up several thousand % and also improve album sales greatly. people will buy music when the price point is right, and itms is just that - an euro for a hit song is a no-brainer. the more there has been piracy, the more itms has a possibility to win market. we'll see.

FriarTuck
Jun 23, 2004, 01:01 PM
which dumbasses rated this 'negative?'

Wasn't there someone complaining that their island wasn't getting served?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=75731

JFreak
Jun 23, 2004, 01:04 PM
I just realized that iTunes Europe is not even available in all of europe.

great, you can consider yourself educated! receive a virtual handshake :)

blutfink
Jun 23, 2004, 01:09 PM
In my opinion, Apple could have easily surpassed one million songs in the first week, had they adopted some additional paying options other than credit cards. In Germany and France, credit cards are not as common as they are in the US and the UK.

Several of my friends went to get a credit card last week solely for buying music from the iTMS!

I think this skews the "first week" statistics quite a bit - and I think this is the reason why the French and the Germans didn't buy as many songs in the first week as the British did.

csimmons
Jun 23, 2004, 01:11 PM
shows that the ultra arrogant phonoverband were succesfull in promoting their own business down through the floor
funny that in those countries copy protected cds are widly used (and complained about) ....hm..._I'm_ not surprised that their sales completly broke apart.....

I agree totally. The labels, GEMA, the IFPI are all a bunch of corrupt people and should be disbanded. Seriously. Their policies have severely screwed up the music business here, as well as the tastes of crappy A&R's (who are primarily mostly techno/dance DJ's) who have no clue what "real people" want to buy.

The music business in G A S deserves to die. :mad:

Stella
Jun 23, 2004, 01:13 PM
What he is trying to say - UK + Germany + France is not !00% of the europe - there are other countries besides these....

Like, London is not UK - there is more to the UK than that bloody city!

a) yes, but they are not the europe. and texas is not the usa.
b) steve is an american and tends to think there are more people in the usa than really is. and for some reason americans tend to look down on europeans. the three are definetely not more than half of the european population, even if i had too small a figure.
c) yes, but again, texas is not the usa.

talk about euro store when it is open. currently, there are three stores in european countries, but that is not the euro store that was promised. maybe we can think of this as a "product announcement" waiting for "product release" for half a year as usually. this will be good for apple, but the rest of the europe feels burnt now. oh well, we don't even have mini ipods yet. we can wait, right? no. we are customers, we should be treated well.

coolfactor
Jun 23, 2004, 01:13 PM
Come on..they will never do that. I do think, that at some point there is going to a be a more complicated price structure than all songs for .99, (Some would be cheaper, some would be more expensive). I mean can you guys think of any other market with such a flat pricing structure? I sure can't.

One has to remember that Apple is about *simplifying* things. A single price for all songs is the best way to do that. Besides, who's really to say that this song is *worth* more than that one??? If they increased prices for popular songs, that would only translate to greediness in my books.

But then again, I can see them dropping prices on songs that aren't selling well at all. Is there an alternative to this?

Corozive
Jun 23, 2004, 01:14 PM
i do agree apple do need to advertse a whole lot more, a few tv adds are not enough.

Stella
Jun 23, 2004, 01:14 PM
?!!!
There are other payment options than Credit cards. In the UK Store you can pay by using your Switch card - which is what I pay with.

Switchcard != credit card
Switchcard == Debit card

In my opinion, Apple could have easily surpassed one million songs in the first week, had they adopted some additional paying options other than credit cards. In Germany and France, credit cards are not as common as they are in the US and the UK.

Several of my friends went to get a credit card last week solely for buying music from the iTMS!

I think this skews the "first week" statistics quite a bit - and I think this is the reason why the French and the Germans didn't buy as many songs in the first week as the British did.

takao
Jun 23, 2004, 01:28 PM
?!!!
There are other payment options than Credit cards. In the UK Store you can pay by using your Switch card - which is what I pay with.

Switchcard != credit card
Switchcard == Debit card

in the german store it is "master card" or "visa"
and thats it

Winston Smith
Jun 23, 2004, 01:55 PM
First these are tremendous numbers and I'm proud to be a part of them.

Second has anyone else noticed Apples not so subtle dig to the indies in the press release?:

“By distributing our first new song in 13 years exclusively on iTunes, we were able to quickly and inexpensively make it available to millions of fans in the United States and Europe”, said Ken Goes, manager of the Pixies. “One week after its release, we are thrilled at the response from iTunes users that have helped to make Bam Thwok a top seller across four countries”.

This track spent most of the week as the top seller in the UK.

Third there was a meeting this week of Digital Hub type product producers and providers including Microsoft and Sony but not Apple to discuss ensuring products work together:

"Products will need to meet the specifications set by the Digital Living Network Alliance in order to qualify for a logo that will let shoppers know if a device will work with other certified products. According to Reuters, the first compatible electronics could start appearing on store shelves by the end of this year."

Trying to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted? or something Apple should worry about?

Finally wait for a numbers spike when this is added to the German store:
Never underestimate the power of Hasselhoff (http://www.hellonetwork.com/demo/toysclub/video.asp?speed=hook300).

mhar4
Jun 23, 2004, 02:00 PM
Actually, the UK is the 3rd largest market; US is 1st, Japan is second.

The sad thing: six years ago, GAS (Germany-Austria-Switzerland) was the 3rd largest market in the world, behind the US and the UK. :eek:

Chinese? Huge piracy problem, but the Chinese-speaking market must surely be no. 2. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple has looked at Hong Kong and Taiwan as starting points for iTMS Chinese

Mr_Ed
Jun 23, 2004, 02:03 PM
On that whole Indie vs. Apple discussion, I don't see either side as 'greedy', but I do see the Indie side as trying to throw more weight around than it actually carries from a sales point of view. It's not uncommon in any business to give a 'better' deal to a partner or supplier that represents a larger volume of sales, and therefore a larger chunk of your revenue. For the Indie side to cry "foul" because they did not get the same exact terms the likes of Vivendi-Universal get is just plain silly if you consider the sales volume they actually represent in the market. The fact that iTMS represented one more potential outlet for their material (and a relatively low overhead one at that) should have been given priority over attempts to get the kinds of terms large music companies got.

nagromme
Jun 23, 2004, 02:21 PM
The point is, Apple aren't contractually bound to keep their prices static. Their verbal assurances aren't worth the paper they're not written on. (How's your 3GHz G5 coming along?

A couple points... First, Apple is in control of their pricing--and will be held accountable for it by their partners--FAR more than they are in control of IBM's fabrication challenges. There is MUCH more reason than just Apple's "verbal assurance" to believe that iTunes prices won't be rising any time soon.

Second, the indies asked for "escalated royalty percentage paid to indies if and when the retail price went up". A FLAT percentage would ALREADY bring the indies more per song if Apple ever raised prices. A HIGHER percentage would simply let the indies stop Apple from ever increasing their own profit, taking ALL the increase for themselves. I'm not surprised Apple would be hesitant to agree to such a thing.

Yes, the indie labels are trying to screw Apple by demanding the same terms that Apple offers the big labels :rolleyes:

..."It's our understanding Apple agreed to a two-year contract with Universal and agreed to re-visit royalty pricing every six months,"

Good point--there may well be differences in how Apple has dealt with one label vs. another. (Or that indie exec's "understanding" may not even be correct.) But my main point about the big labels stands--that they wanted to raise prices and Apple wouldn't let them. And I HIGHLY doubt that the big labels got Apple to pay them MORE royalties the second time around. Apple was barely breaking even already, while the labels were making dough.

In short, it doesn't sound like the indies have much of a point in actual practice. If it's "feeling undervalued," hopefully they'll get over it and start making some money off iTunes soon :D They'll make far more than Apple does.

(And let's not kid ourselves, the big labels DO have clout over Apple that the smaller labels don't. That's NOT because Apple likes it that way.)

Now, why not let indies have such a clause at least? And then, with the "review" comes, refuse to budge THEN instead of making a seemingly negative gesture now? I would speculate that it's because all those labels have been difficult to work with--individually or as a group--and doing so again every 6 months may be something to avoid.

jydesign
Jun 23, 2004, 02:28 PM
Wow, finally CNET writes an Apple-related headline that isn't steeped in negativity:

"iTunes shows strong early sales in Europe"
http://news.com.com/iTunes+shows+strong+early+sales+in+Europe/2100-1027_3-5245090.html?tag=nefd.top

The way they've been reporting on Apple as of late, I'm surprised it doesn't say something like "iTunes shows strong early sales in Europe despite lack of indie labels and even after Pepsi failure and many major OS X security flaws..."

urbanlung
Jun 23, 2004, 02:30 PM
The most notable absence from its catalogue is The Beatles . The surviving members of the group and their widows are currently engaged in a legal dispute with Apple. They argue that Jobs misappropriated the name of their record label and anyway would prefer to sell their songs through Microsoft. Are they serious? Sounds 'its my ball and I'm taking it with me'

nobs

jydesign
Jun 23, 2004, 02:46 PM
The most notable absence from its catalogue is The Beatles . The surviving members of the group and their widows are currently engaged in a legal dispute with Apple. They argue that Jobs misappropriated the name of their record label and anyway would prefer to sell their songs through Microsoft. Are they serious? Sounds 'its my ball and I'm taking it with me'

nobs

Yeah, but Apple Corps is such an innovator on the modern music scene, I mean check out their awesome website!
http://www.applecorps.com/
yeah, that was sarcasm...

If you want to see yet more evidence as to why all labels should be kissing Apple's ring for bailing their sorry behinds out of a downward spiral that they crafted long before MP3 became popular, watch this great full length episode of Frontline titled: "The Way the Music Died"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/music/view/

rjwill246
Jun 23, 2004, 02:49 PM
Wow, finally CNET writes an Apple-related headline that isn't steeped in negativity:

"iTunes shows strong early sales in Europe"
http://news.com.com/iTunes+shows+strong+early+sales+in+Europe/2100-1027_3-5245090.html?tag=nefd.top

"

I just fell off my chair!

stcanard
Jun 23, 2004, 02:50 PM
but that is not the euro store that was promised. maybe we can think of this as a "product announcement" waiting for "product release" for half a year as usually. this will be good for apple, but the rest of the europe feels burnt now. oh well, we don't even have mini ipods yet. we can wait, right? no. we are customers, we should be treated well.

I'd suggest not complaining too loudly, because at least you have a release date.

[Posted by a Canadian Macrumors member]

frankly
Jun 23, 2004, 02:55 PM
Does anyone have the numbers for how this opening week compares to the ITMS mac debut week and the ITMS windows debut week?

This seems like its a bit on the low side...but maybe I'm just jaded.

They sold a little over 1 million songs in the first week of iTMS for Macs. In October when the Windows version launched this number was down to around a half million per week.

They announced in November, just a couple of weeks after launching, that they were selling 1.5 million a week from both Mac and Windows versions. So, that looks like about 1 million from Windows users in the first week. In May they announced that they sold 3.3 million in one week after they released the updated iTMS.


Now, considering that there are 275,000,000 people in the US and the UK, France, and Germany together have 200,000,000 people 800,000 songs sold isn't too shabby.

Later, Frank

leftbanke7
Jun 23, 2004, 02:56 PM
Yeah, is it Micahel Jackson that has the exclusive rights to the beatles catalogue?

Jacko is a bit short of cash at the minute too, while stevie isnt...

From what I understand, MJ put up the Beatles catalogue (the Lennon/McCartney songs, Harrison held on to his as did Ringo) as colateral for money fronted for his last album...which bombed horribly. Because the record sales didn't add up to enough to pay back the record company, they have kept the rights to the Beatles songs until MJ can repay the money. I think this partly caused MJ's "So-in-so is a racist rant" a while back. It would not surprise me one bit for Paul McCartney to go in and buy back the songs (if he has not done this already) as he has the scratch to do this.

And Steve wouldn't want to buy the Beatles catalogue. He'd be much more interested in Joan Baez....sorry, I couldn't resist :)

itsa
Jun 23, 2004, 03:03 PM
I think they are refereing to the UK indie labels and not US.

Oh.... They don't just use the same format?

RogueLdr
Jun 23, 2004, 03:03 PM
b) steve is an american This is correct.and tends to think there are more people in the usa than really is.Really? Could you supply me a link to a quote from Steve to that effect?and for some reason americans tend to look down on europeans. All Americans? Have we met? I'm RogueLdr, and I'm an American that doesn't look down on Europeans. Perhaps you meant to say "Some Americans look down on Europeans, much as some Europeans look down on Americans, although this is by no means a universal viewpoint for either Americans or Europeans."the three are definetely not more than half of the european population, even if i had too small a figure.I completely agree here. I believe the population of the United Kingdom, France, and Germany come to around 1/3 of the population of Europe. The confusion seems to come from the fact that the UK, France, and Germany account for over 60% of all music purchases in Europe. I believe that is what the PR release from Apple is saying.

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE for Finland and the rest of Europe to have access to the iTMS. I take a bit of an issue only with overgeneralizations or misattributions of quotes to people. Heck, it wouldn't truly suprise me that Steve thinks there are a billion people in the US as he does, after all, believe that J-A-G-U-A-R spells "jagwire." ;)

Out of curiosity, though, aside from your obvious issue with the term "iTMS Europe" when applied to this limited rollout, would you be more satisfied had Apple waited to release in Europe at all until they had secured rights in every European country?

whooleytoo
Jun 23, 2004, 03:05 PM
For the Indie side to cry "foul" because they did not get the same exact terms the likes of Vivendi-Universal get is just plain silly if you consider the sales volume they actually represent in the market.

Conversely, it'd be silly of them not to try and get the same terms either! ;)

frankly
Jun 23, 2004, 03:10 PM
how about itms euro store first? sheesh, apple dropped it on this one. as if leaving us without ipod minis was bad enough... how angry one needs to be before things change? we already have high taxes here (making apple products really exclusive items), we don't need delays to add to the suffering.

i'm however happy that apple announced the 0.99eur/song pricepoint which i was hoping for. for that price i will buy a good many songs when the euro itms is finally opened four months from now.

the only thing that would make this situation more bearable would be that when the ipod minis are finally available in europe before christmas, they would be revB units that have something extra that would be well worth the waiting. bigger hard drive, airport straming to airport express, fixed headphone plug issue which is a no-brainer really, longer battery life, even more color choices... something to make me smile, or all of them.

---

(or even a reasonable price tag. currently the middle regular ipod costs half the average net salary after the taxes (!) and you get the picture when you imagine the thing would cost a few thousand us dollars. yeah? it's not a wonder that the ipods haven't reached every teenager's pockets in here.)

That is a lot of blame you are putting on Apple for things that are out of their control. Let's see, you are mad at Apple for:

1) The record labels not signing with them at a faster pace.
2) The hard drive manufacturer for the iPod mini not making drives fast enough.
3) The high taxes in Europe.

Don't you think that Apple wanted to have both the iTMS and the iPod mini in Europe for a long time?

Frank

frankly
Jun 23, 2004, 03:13 PM
800,000 is damned good. The US store sold a million, but as someone rightfully pointed out, the populaion of the US is vastly higher than the combined population of UK, Germany and France.

This would be a good point if not for the fact that they sold over a million songs just to the Mac users. In fact, just to the Mac OS X users. That number is only about 10,000,000 which is much lower than the number of people this was available t in the UK.

Frank

merges
Jun 23, 2004, 03:23 PM
This would be a good point if not for the fact that they sold over a million songs just to the Mac users. In fact, just to the Mac OS X users. That number is only about 10,000,000 which is much lower than the number of people this was available t in the UK.

I bet Mac users (Mac OS X users, actually) were probably the first to get into the iTunes UK/France/Germany store, and Mac (especially Mac OS X) has a relatively tiny marketshare in the UK... I think these numbers are not only excellent, but will climb as more folks (especially non-Apple people, remember there are like 59,500,000 of them in the UK) learn about the iPod and the new iTMS... give it time to gain momentum.

JFreak
Jun 23, 2004, 03:27 PM
That is a lot of blame you are putting on Apple for things that are out of their control. Let's see, you are mad at Apple for:

1) The record labels not signing with them at a faster pace.
2) The hard drive manufacturer for the iPod mini not making drives fast enough.
3) The high taxes in Europe.

Don't you think that Apple wanted to have both the iTMS and the iPod mini in Europe for a long time?

Frank

yes, i know apple wants to be able to sell to the whole world. the great part of the annoyance comes from the fact that apple was just about the only company that could have made all this happen, and that pulling-the-ace-from-the-sleeve apple magic WAS EXPECTED and rumoured and hoped for.

you know, there is still a great deal of hatred left between the UK and germany, so if the record labels can agree selling to the both, they will agree to selling to whole europe. that's why i wonder why on earth only a crippled release of itms europe...

and as for mini ipods, come on... don't you think apple should treat its customers equally and let the europeans also order the ipod from the beginning? if we can wait, so can a few americans too. that hitachi capacity issue is just a bad excuse to let the americans be first-class citizens in the apple world. not acceptable, imho.

JFreak
Jun 23, 2004, 03:33 PM
I'm an American that doesn't look down on Europeans. (...) Out of curiosity, though, aside from your obvious issue with the term "iTMS Europe" when applied to this limited rollout, would you be more satisfied had Apple waited to release in Europe at all until they had secured rights in every European country?

granted, i made some generalizations that i accuse americans for, so we europeans are no better. i have actually never been to america, and even if i saw a few cities i would have hard time to say "i visited to america" - i would have only seen a view of a few cities, for god's sake. i know there are countless beautiful places in finland alone, and this is a very small country compared to whole america, canada included. (i actually have relatives there, in vancouver).

i think even this crippled itms europe launch is good for apple and i'm only whining because i too would have liked to buy some songs. i just expected more from apple than they could deliver, so i can take a part of the blame, too.

JFreak
Jun 23, 2004, 03:34 PM
I'd suggest not complaining too loudly, because at least you have a release date.

[Posted by a Canadian Macrumors member]

yes, thanks for puttings things into perspective. by the way, as i happened to already reveal in my previous response, i have relatives in vancouver. i might visit the city some day, god willing ;)

leftbanke7
Jun 23, 2004, 03:35 PM
and as for mini ipods, come on... don't you think apple should treat its customers equally and let the europeans also order the ipod from the beginning? if we can wait, so can a few americans too. that hitachi capacity issue is just a bad excuse to let the americans be first-class citizens in the apple world. not acceptable, imho.

It's not so black and white. If the supply can not keep up with the demand, then what sense does it make to release it elsewhere when you know you can not keep up with the demand. Had they released it to Europe, all we would hear from across the pond is how Apple dropped the ball by not having enough product. It's a catch-22 here and I think Apple is doing the best they can with what they have.

iKenny
Jun 23, 2004, 03:35 PM
iTunes Music Store in only it's first week

Just a quick correction: "it's" should be "its." "It's" means "it is."

frankly
Jun 23, 2004, 03:38 PM
I bet Mac users (Mac OS X users, actually) were probably the first to get into the iTunes UK/France/Germany store, and Mac (especially Mac OS X) has a relatively tiny marketshare in the UK... I think these numbers are not only excellent, but will climb as more folks (especially non-Apple people, remember there are like 59,500,000 of them in the UK) learn about the iPod and the new iTMS... give it time to gain momentum.

That is a big assumption with no facts to back it up. I think the numbers in Europe are just fine. I was just pointing out that you can't compare them directly to the original iTMS launch. If you want to compare it then compare it to the Windows iTMS launch.

Besides, iTunes has been available for Windows users in Europe just as long as it has for the American Windows users.

Frank

BeoVir
Jun 23, 2004, 04:04 PM
One of my cousins came to America to visit me a few weeks ago. He is staying here for a few months and we have had a lot of fun traveling around.
Getting to now him again has been pretty cool. However, I have been in an almost constant state of shock over how little he knows of Apple and of the internet!!
So I am very surprised over the amount of songs bought by the UK. I would love to see these numbers split down to the regional level but I dont know if Apple can do that with the way their store is set up. I must say that Apple really needs to get some advertising going in the UK. My cousin was amazed by the features of my PowerBook, especially Expose!!
When I saw the UK store was opened I showed him how it works and he actually called his girlfriend back home and told her how to get iTunes and buy songs on it, so maybe I shouldn't have been so suprised but from my experiences with him I really thought England wouldnt buy that much for simple lack of internet skills.
Does anyone know how iTMS does in rural areas compared to cities? Maybe more broadband connections are required for more explosive growth.

rjwill246
Jun 23, 2004, 04:11 PM
and as for mini ipods, come on... don't you think apple should treat its customers equally and let the europeans also order the ipod from the beginning? not acceptable, imho.

Actually, NO! Until very, very recently Apple had been considered an almost useless after-thought in the European computing world and after the company's near demise, before the second coming, it was the US market that pulled it out of the skids. Apple has had to concentrate on the US with its new products and not rely on what has been to now, a shaky and highly unreliable European base- after all, until now, Microsoft was viewed in Europe with awe and wonder and even now, despite the iPod etc, my medical colleagues are in disbelief when I tell them my medical practice runs on Macs. Apple knows that it must establish product in the US first and foremost and until things show otherwise, that will be that. When announcements like the US Army's, V.T, FBI and NASA are common-place in Europe, that might change everything but given the chaotic circumstances of the iTMS launch, and then, with only three countries, it is a good bet that Apple product will not be offered equally in Europe as in the US- and that makes sense. Can you imagine if the iPod had been launched in Europe to the thunderous enthusiasm that greeted SJ's on stage appearance this week in London, what a disaster that would have been? in any case, most of the complaints about Apple in Europe have little to do with Apple and much more to do with the organizations and customer attitudes it has had to deal with. Hopefully, this will all change.

cheekyspanky
Jun 23, 2004, 04:14 PM
I really thought England wouldnt buy that much for simple lack of internet skills.


???

You'd be amazed how some of us have grasped this internet thing, those crazy flying contraptions still scare me though and the magic moving picture box in the corner of my room..witchcraft I tell you!

takao
Jun 23, 2004, 04:20 PM
Actually, NO! Until very, very recently Apple had been considered an almost useless after-thought in the European computing world and after the company's near demise, before the second coming, it was the US market that pulled it out of the skids. Apple has had to concentrate on the US with its new products and not rely on what has been to now, a shaky and highly unreliable European base- after all, until now, Microsoft was viewed in Europe with awe and wonder and even now, despite the iPod etc, my medical colleagues are in disbelief when I tell them my medical practice runs on Macs. Apple knows that it must establish product in the US first and foremost and until things show otherwise, that will be that. When announcements like the US Army's, V.T, FBI and NASA are common-place in Europe, that might change everything but given the chaotic circumstances of the iTMS launch, and then, with only three countries, it is a good bet that Apple product will not be offered equally in Europe as in the US- and that makes sense. Can you imagine if the iPod had been launched in Europe to the thunderous enthusiasm that greeted SJ's on stage appearance this week in London, what a disaster that would have been? in any case, most of the complaints about Apple in Europe have little to do with Apple and much more to do with the organizations and customer attitudes it has had to deal with. Hopefully, this will all change.

well perhaps that explains why linux has twice the apple market share in germany/asutria.. and whole cites are switiching to linux.....those people are really looking at microsoft with awe and wonder .... perhaps europe was a unreliable market...but perhaps apple was not able to offer something for the market....

nagromme
Jun 23, 2004, 04:23 PM
???

You'd be amazed how some of us have grasped this internet thing, those crazy flying contraptions still scare me though and the magic moving picture box in the corner of my room..witchcraft I tell you!

OK, but I for one am still mad over the Stamp Tax.

I mean really, our TEA??? That's just low.

Peyote
Jun 23, 2004, 04:28 PM
???

You'd be amazed how some of us have grasped this internet thing, those crazy flying contraptions still scare me though and the magic moving picture box in the corner of my room..witchcraft I tell you!


Ah, that's nothing...trying talking to an Australian about computers! lol

frankly
Jun 23, 2004, 04:28 PM
One of my cousins came to America to visit me a few weeks ago. He is staying here for a few months and we have had a lot of fun traveling around.
Getting to now him again has been pretty cool. However, I have been in an almost constant state of shock over how little he knows of Apple and of the internet!!
So I am very surprised over the amount of songs bought by the UK. I would love to see these numbers split down to the regional level but I dont know if Apple can do that with the way their store is set up. I must say that Apple really needs to get some advertising going in the UK. My cousin was amazed by the features of my PowerBook, especially Expose!!
When I saw the UK store was opened I showed him how it works and he actually called his girlfriend back home and told her how to get iTunes and buy songs on it, so maybe I shouldn't have been so suprised but from my experiences with him I really thought England wouldnt buy that much for simple lack of internet skills.
Does anyone know how iTMS does in rural areas compared to cities? Maybe more broadband connections are required for more explosive growth.

Are you serious with this post? You are basing your judgment of an entire country on those of your cousin??? Your cousin that doesn't know much about the Internet????

No offense but he sounds pretty computer illiterate in general. I wouldn't expect someone that was as computer illiterate as your cousin to know much about Apple.

The conclusions that you have extrapolated from your experience with one person out of 60,000,000 is astounding to say the least.

Frank

nsb3000
Jun 23, 2004, 04:29 PM
In my opinion, Apple could have easily surpassed one million songs in the first week, had they adopted some additional paying options other than credit cards. In Germany and France, credit cards are not as common as they are in the US and the UK.

Several of my friends went to get a credit card last week solely for buying music from the iTMS!

I think this skews the "first week" statistics quite a bit - and I think this is the reason why the French and the Germans didn't buy as many songs in the first week as the British did.

That is an interesting point that I would have never thought of...but can't you use a Bank card or debit card as well? :confused:

frankly
Jun 23, 2004, 04:34 PM
In my opinion, Apple could have easily surpassed one million songs in the first week, had they adopted some additional paying options other than credit cards. In Germany and France, credit cards are not as common as they are in the US and the UK.

Several of my friends went to get a credit card last week solely for buying music from the iTMS!

I think this skews the "first week" statistics quite a bit - and I think this is the reason why the French and the Germans didn't buy as many songs in the first week as the British did.

Again with the unsubstantiated statements. Just because a couple of your friends don't have credit cards you assume that they are not common in Europe. I lived in Germany for three years over a decade ago and I can assure you that credit cards were just as commonplace there as they were in the states. In fact, there were more ATMs that took credit cards in Germany than I had seen in the US.

Later, Frank

takao
Jun 23, 2004, 04:47 PM
Again with the unsubstantiated statements. Just because a couple of your friends don't have credit cards you assume that they are not common in Europe. I lived in Germany for three years over a decade ago and I can assure you that credit cards were just as commonplace there as they were in the states. In fact, there were more ATMs that took credit cards in Germany than I had seen in the US.

Later, Frank

credit cards commonplace in germany ? i guess i missed that... i've never saw somebody paying with a credit card outside of a movie...
most people don't have a credit card.period.
but most people have a bank/EC-card to get money from a ATM
and you can pay with those EC cards in stores but they _aren't_ credit cards...
(i'm not going to buy a credit card for iTMS....)

Mr_Ed
Jun 23, 2004, 04:56 PM
Conversely, it'd be silly of them not to try and get the same terms either! ;)

Absolutely. Nothing wrong with trying to get as much as possible. But there is a difference between trying to get the terms without success but still having a distribution channel, and eating crow on the whole deal. I just think that saying we should get that deal because they did does not wash in this case due to the potential sales volume differences and the Indie folks should have recognized that and not gotten so bent out of shape about it.

aldo
Jun 23, 2004, 05:27 PM
Are you serious with this post? You are basing your judgment of an entire country on those of your cousin??? Your cousin that doesn't know much about the Internet????

No offense but he sounds pretty computer illiterate in general. I wouldn't expect someone that was as computer illiterate as your cousin to know much about Apple.

The conclusions that you have extrapolated from your experience with one person out of 60,000,000 is astounding to say the least.

Frank

I know...

Did you know we have a much higher proportion of people actually on the internet than America?

robotrenegade
Jun 23, 2004, 05:38 PM
I just hope Apple doesn't use this power to be like MS. Go apple!

johnnyjibbs
Jun 23, 2004, 05:44 PM
We must remember that music downloads represent a tiny fraction of music sales. This market is still in its infancy and Apple has a commanding lead. This says tonnes for the iTunes brand, considering Apple is not a major brand in the UK and few people have Macs.

These sales figures have proved that Apple and the iPod know the way and are a force to be reckoned with, even in the UK.

Phat_Pat
Jun 23, 2004, 06:30 PM
I wonder how much they'll sell in a year? :rolleyes:

greg75
Jun 23, 2004, 06:56 PM
I just hope Apple doesn't use this power to be like MS. Go apple!
Microsoft, Apple snub consumer freedom coalition (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/23/ms_apple_snub_boucher/)

Chaszmyr
Jun 23, 2004, 09:05 PM
Think theres any chance Apple will be able to hit 150 million songs between WWDC 2004 and WWDC 2005?

BWhaler
Jun 23, 2004, 10:25 PM
Holy cow.

That is very impressive.

GO APPLE.


Just don't forget the Mac. :)

~Shard~
Jun 23, 2004, 10:50 PM
Well done Apple - this comes as no surprise to me. I knew that once all the legailities, complications, etc. were out of the way, iTMS would be a great success overseas.

Now bring it to Canada already!!! ;) :cool:

g4cubed
Jun 23, 2004, 11:34 PM
Well, first let me say that a few of these posts that I've read here today, sadly reflect the ignorance and stupidity of some people. Come on now, really. I didn't even feel they deserved a quote response,which was what they probably wanted. Everyone knows which posts I'm talking about and if not, oh well.
Anyways, iTMS really kicked a$$, and showed everybody who the big dog really was. :D

BeoVir
Jun 24, 2004, 12:28 AM
Are you serious with this post? You are basing your judgment of an entire country on those of your cousin??? Your cousin that doesn't know much about the Internet????

No offense but he sounds pretty computer illiterate in general. I wouldn't expect someone that was as computer illiterate as your cousin to know much about Apple.

The conclusions that you have extrapolated from your experience with one person out of 60,000,000 is astounding to say the least.

Frank

Yes I was serious with my post. Yes, I did base my judgement of an entire country on my experience with one person from that country. And yes the person I based my judgment on did not know much about the internet, in fact that's why I made my judgent as he couldn't purchase music from a store he had never heard of. And I did include a line that stated that my conlcusions were based on one very shocking experience I had, shocking because I always thought of England as being ahead of the US in education and practicality, however I deleted that line as I figured someone else would point it out anyway.

Now if you will stay with me for a moment let me just point out that I did say I shouldn't have been so suprised because he jumped on the phone and called his girlfriend and told her about the store (she downloaded iTunes while talking to him on the phone). So I did see how he knew people who obviously were much more computer literate than him, but who also did not know about the music store or Apple. I also saw how fast word can travel as it turned out his girlfriend showed a bunch of her friends this 'wicked' music store from 'some apple company'.

Also I did ask if any one new if we could get regional sales figures for the iTMS. As my cousin is from a small rural area and so I thought maybe there is a technology divide between urban and rural areas similar to that in the US where broadband is hard to get outside of the cities and it seems less people even care that its hard to get.

I know...

Did you know we have a much higher proportion of people actually on the internet than America?

Thank you for the info but do you have any exact numbers on that and do you know if there is any form of tax on the internet, like the TV tax that supports the BBC? I would be great if there is a government program to help the underprivaliged get online as I have had a hard time keeping my cousin offline as access is so easy where I live and he really enjoys it.

nagromme
Jun 24, 2004, 12:36 AM
FYI, some big failings of iTunes' "competitors:"

* OD2 won't let you buy just one song! You pre-pay a certain amount and then you can start using that to download. That's not good for attracting the curious.

* Napster can't rip CDs! It's not a single solution for your music like iTunes is.

kettle
Jun 24, 2004, 03:09 AM
c) The UK is an EU member, too... ;)

Please don't start that off in this thread. :)
we'll (I'll) be way off topic in no time. :p

kettle
Jun 24, 2004, 03:12 AM
Yeah, is it Micahel Jackson that has the exclusive rights to the beatles catalogue?

Jacko is a bit short of cash at the minute too, while stevie isnt...

I would love to see that happen, that would be such a satisfying outcome after all these years of (irony ?)

hansen
Jun 24, 2004, 03:32 AM
Nope...we sold 75,000,000 in the state in one year. But it's a much larger market.

Larger only due to the fact that only France, UK and Germany is part of Apples Europe interpretation!

CoreForce
Jun 24, 2004, 03:54 AM
Yes I was serious with my post.

Here's my view as a german living abroad, travelling:

Credit Cards in Germany are common among business travellers.
That's about it. You typically will not find people using them
anywhere for daily life things.

There are basically two reasons for that:
- shops have to pay a comparably high commission for credit card usage
- banks are restrictive when providing credit cards, esp. to younger people

Credit cards are accepted in better restaurants and better malls or
fashion shops. Locations where one typically will spend more than
Euro 50 or so.

It's wise to look out for your provider's card sign before entring a shop.
You might encounter bad surprises otherwise. And because all of that,
many "regular" people do not own a credit card.

ATM cards are wide spread, however. Most of them are connected to
the Maestro system. I'm under the impression that this is available
in the US as well.

Other countries are more flexible in terms of CC usage, but no country
of the EU I visited so far comes close to the US.

Bottom line:
With the iTunes Music store not accepting Maestro/EC, it looses a
fair fraction of potential users.

CoreForce
Jun 24, 2004, 03:57 AM
Larger only due to the fact that only France, UK and Germany is part of Apples Europe interpretation!

that's not true. Jobs announced an european store for autumn already.
I guess it takes them a bit longer to set this one up because different
country rights and license models need to be merged into one store.

hansen
Jun 24, 2004, 04:11 AM
that's not true. Jobs announced an european store for autumn already.
I guess it takes them a bit longer to set this one up because different
country rights and license models need to be merged into one store.

The combined European economy is bigger than the US economy. So if all of Europe is included Europe is a bigger marked than the US measured on the size of the economy and slightly smaller measured on number of people.

garybUK
Jun 24, 2004, 04:26 AM
Thank you for the info but do you have any exact numbers on that and do you know if there is any form of tax on the internet, like the TV tax that supports the BBC? I would be great if there is a government program to help the underprivaliged get online as I have had a hard time keeping my cousin offline as access is so easy where I live and he really enjoys it.

There are no taxes on the internet here as we dont have a government ran telephone system. And i find your statement of 'underprivaliged' to be a little insulting. We have one of the fastest broadband penetration growing markets, British Telecome are replacing the entire PSTN telephone network throughout the UK with a 21CN Fibre / VoIP Network with 99.99% of buildings will have access to the internet, i.e. a CAT5 socket in the home for TV/Phone/Internet etc by 2008... i clearly think this is not a underprivalidged country and we dont need taxes to pay for these services.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media_office/latest_news/nr_20040602 and
http://www.btplc.com/News/Pressreleasesandarticles/Corporatenewsreleases/2004/nr0445.htm

Although i do remember a program where the government was trying to give computers to people who were living on benefits and they did have a ISP called UKOnline... not heard anything of that recently... but with Broadband access as little as £15 per month ($27 @ 1.8) its hardly inaccessible.

rant over...

Apple does have quite a image in the UK, there are loads of apple stores (third party) around the place, especially in the bigger cities like Birmingham, Manchester and London. I live in Manchester and I can think of at least 9 places to go play with mac's and if you walk up the city centre there are the round advertisements in the streets with the maps on covered in apple adverts.

John Lewis, Selfridges, Harrods all sell Mac's, not to mention PC World (UK's biggest computer store), Dixons... i'll stop now.

dontmatter
Jun 24, 2004, 04:55 AM
finland has a lot of music piracy, too, but does that mean itms will fail in these countries? no. it only states that the cd and single prices are just so ridiculously high in here, and only few people are buying. how do you feel about a price point of 5 euros for a single? no go. or 25 euros for a new hit album? no go there either. people either wait for it going "mid-price" and buy it if they remember it at that point. and because so many hit albums are so easy to forget, even the mid-price sales are not so good.

of course there are always people like me who like to buy the music that is worth listening to, but the vast majority of each nation tends to buy the cheapest, or not buy at all.

i suspect the itms will bring single-cd sales up several thousand % and also improve album sales greatly. people will buy music when the price point is right, and itms is just that - an euro for a hit song is a no-brainer. the more there has been piracy, the more itms has a possibility to win market. we'll see.

itunes having a major effect on CD sales? I don't entierly get why itunes would make people buy CD's who weren't earlier. And, I don't really know the market in spain, but if it is even ANYTHING like the USA, as in, nearing a factor of a hundread, then this doesn't really matter for album sales. I refer you to an ancient post of mine: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=727671#post727671

just remember that to compare numbers here, itms=3.3 million songs, maximum week, which equals about 300,000 albums. CD sales in the US have a 17 million a week number. Spain might be a lot different, but I doubt it's THAT much different.

blutfink
Jun 24, 2004, 05:42 AM
Again with the unsubstantiated statements. Just because a couple of your friends don't have credit cards you assume that they are not common in Europe. I lived in Germany for three years over a decade ago and I can assure you that credit cards were just as commonplace there as they were in the states. In fact, there were more ATMs that took credit cards in Germany than I had seen in the US.

:rolleyes: Believe me, this is not unsubstantiated. I have been living in a German city (population of over a million) for a quarter of a century ;) now and I'm a student at the largest university of the country. I do have a fairly good overview of the payment methods.

Please have a look at any German Apple-related news forum and you'll see that this issue is one of the topics right now.

If you're talking businesspeople, right. Everybody has one. If you're talking about students or in general about people who don't earn their own money, virtually no one has one. We use debit cards for just about everything, but unfortunately those aren't accepted at the iTMS.


In fact, there were more ATMs that took credit cards in Germany than I had seen in the US.
I had never questioned that. Any ATM over here will accept a credit card.


Again with the unsubstantiated statements.
As you can see from the following figure (p. 6), the penetration of credit cards in the UK is over three times higher than in France and at least nine times as high as it is in Germany. :eek:

http://www.investor.barclays.co.uk/pdf/seminar161101_int_grpwth.pdf

I don't know whether Apple hadn't thought about this or there is a good reason (or they don't care.)

Shagrat
Jun 24, 2004, 06:06 AM
Never underestimate the power of Hasselhoff (http://www.hellonetwork.com/demo/toysclub/video.asp?speed=hook300).

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

AAAAGGGHHHH! That was TRULY horrible!

Just for that, Hasselh...OFF!

hansen
Jun 24, 2004, 06:16 AM
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

AAAAGGGHHHH! That was TRULY horrible!

Just for that, Hasselh...OFF!

Now we know why CD sales are down!

heywhynots
Jun 24, 2004, 07:23 AM
I would love to see that happen, that would be such a satisfying outcome after all these years of (irony ?)


Buying out Michael Jackson won't mean Apple will be able to sell Beatles recordings. MJ (and Sony) own the publishing rights. Everytime someone wants to print the lyrics to a Beatles song they have to pay MJ and Sony a royality. The recordings themselves I still believe are owned by Apple Corp and in North America, Capital Records has those rights. Now if Apple Computers bought Apple then they probably could sell the Beatles recordings online. Owning the publishing rights would generate revenue and decrease the cost of selling the recordings but would do nothing more. Besides Sony has firsts dibs on buying MJ out regarding the publishing rights.

BeoVir
Jun 24, 2004, 08:01 AM
There are no taxes on the internet here as we dont have a government ran telephone system. And i find your statement of 'underprivaliged' to be a little insulting. We have one of the fastest broadband penetration growing markets, British Telecome are replacing the entire PSTN telephone network throughout the UK with a 21CN Fibre / VoIP Network with 99.99% of buildings will have access to the internet, i.e. a CAT5 socket in the home for TV/Phone/Internet etc by 2008... i clearly think this is not a underprivalidged country and we dont need taxes to pay for these services...

I appreciate your reply, I really had no idea how pervasive internet access was in England. But I do want to point out that I wasnt calling the population of England, Scotland, Wales, and N. Ireland under privaliged, I was referring to my cousin who happens to be dirt poor. Do prefer dirt poor, under privilaged, not as financially able to perform, or some other way of saying "He has no reasonable income"?

BeoVir
Jun 24, 2004, 08:13 AM
Apple does have quite a image in the UK, there are loads of apple stores (third party) around the place, especially in the bigger cities like Birmingham, Manchester and London. I live in Manchester and I can think of at least 9 places to go play with mac's and if you walk up the city centre there are the round advertisements in the streets with the maps on covered in apple adverts.

John Lewis, Selfridges, Harrods all sell Mac's, not to mention PC World (UK's biggest computer store), Dixons... i'll stop now.

Ok, sweet big cities have advertsing for Apple, how about the rural areas? Are the people who live in small towns only going to hear about Apple products from the stores that happen to have a couple in stock? I have been to Dixons, never seen an Apple computer there, maybe I missed it. Isn't Harrods like some huge expensive store in London, small town folks probably don't shop there. I have never heard of the others (except for PC World, similar to CompUSA). I hate to keep this going but I just remember growing up in a small town in England and not having access to the technology some of my family had access to in Birmingham. Also eventhough my family lived only a short trip from London, I only remember going there once, and it wasn't for the Apple store. I left England 10 years ago and so am not sure if this has changed but people in my town didn't travel very much.

Anyway I apologize for offending you, that was not my intention and I do appreciate the info on the internets pervasiveness, and with the way iTMS took of this is a moot discussion anyway.

Go Apple!!

dubbz
Jun 24, 2004, 09:44 AM
If you're talking businesspeople, right. Everybody has one. If you're talking about students or in general about people who don't earn their own money, virtually no one has one. We use debit cards for just about everything, but unfortunately those aren't accepted at the iTMS.

Aren't VISA available as a debit card too, in Germany? I got a VISA from my bank, in Norway, and it's a debit card... but I guess that's not the norm elsewhere in the world.

Actually, the norwegian VISA website mention that their cards are also available as credit cards, in an attempt to dispel the "myth" that VISA is only available as a debit card. I guess things are different in Norway :)

Doctor Q
Jun 24, 2004, 11:55 AM
Now if Apple Computers bought Apple then they probably could sell the Beatles recordings online.I don't think Apple Computer should run Apple Records. Apple should stick to distributing music for all labels, not owning a label (or is it really only a holding company?). In any case, maybe Apple Computer should buy Apple Records, give itself AR's Beatles distribution rights, settle/dismiss all suits against itself, and then immediately sell the rest of AR's holdings. They can be in and out of the music label business in 5 minutes.

irmongoose
Jun 25, 2004, 08:56 AM
Doctor Q: The strategy of buying up any competing companies or companies causing problems sounds too much like a thing Microsoft would do. It's definitely not the right thing to do.



irmongoose

Doctor Q
Jun 25, 2004, 11:40 AM
Doctor Q: The strategy of buying up any competing companies or companies causing problems sounds too much like a thing Microsoft would do. It's definitely not the right thing to do.Uh oh. You made me consider my assumptions and rethink it.

Certain big companies have a reputation for buying competitors and then shelving their products. You are right that we don't want to see Apple have that habit or get that reputation.

On the other hand, it's a shame that Apple Record's legacy seems to be arguing with Apple Computer and not much else, and that Beatles music remains locked up from certain markets because of it. I'd sure like to see them settle it once and for all, with AC paying AR a fair price for rights to use the name "Apple" in the music business. But now I see that my idea for having AC force the result isn't really a solution. Here's how I figure it:

If AC is only willing to pay $X to buy those rights, and AR wants $Y, with $Y much greater than $X (which is why they haven't settled), and the fair market price for the AR company, excluding the value of the "Apple"-music rights is $Z, then AC should be willing to pay up to $X+$Z to buy AR, because you'd assume they can extract the $X worth of rights and then sell the AR company for $Z (if we conveniently ignore accounting and legal expenses). But, knowing this, AR shouldn't take purchase offers for less than $Y+$Z. So the same impasse seems to be the result.

And here I thought a single forum post could solve all their business problems. Shucks!