Afgan election rife with corruption [Archive]

BoyBach

Aug 27, 2009, 04:04 PM

Four British soldiers die for sake of 150 votes

Just 150 Afghan voters dared to go to the ballot box in the area of Helmand province where British soldiers sacrificed their lives to secure a safe election day, it was revealed yesterday.

The figures were released as the British Ambassador to Kabul admitted that troops could be engaged in combat in Afghanistan for five more years.

The Electoral Commission in Kabul said that early estimates of voting in the former Taleban stronghold of Babaji, north of Lashkar Gah, the provincial capital, indicated that few exercised their right to vote last Thursday. Several thousand people could have voted.

Four of the ten troops who died in Operation Panther’s Claw, the five-week offensive to drive the Taleban out of central Helmand before the presidential election, were killed in or around Babaji.

...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6811537.ece

EDIT: Oops! toontra has already posted this sad story.

rasmasyean

Sep 12, 2009, 04:37 AM

This place has become a playground for zealots to “find Allah”, and coalition to “test weapons”. This war is such a joke of a “war”, they just seem to inch along, going back and forth with territory and just mess around like it’s some experimental state. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “elections” are just some politically inspired front that doesn’t really do anything except secure a live proving grounds to sell arms. After all, it’s good business to sell arms and battlefield services and contracts to make more arms and battlefield services. There might not be “oil” like in Iraq, but apparently there are willing targets on both sides duking out for other people’s shareholder profits.

skunk

Sep 13, 2009, 04:39 AM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/on-helmands-frontline-with-the-us-marines-1786627.html
The think tank International Council on Security and Development (Icos) announced last week that there had, yet again, been an increase in Taliban activity across Afghanistan. Its research revealed the insurgents had a permanent hold in 80 per cent of the country, up from 72 per cent last year and 54 per cent in 2007.

Remind me why we are in Afghanistan again. The whole thing is a disaster, and has been from the very beginning.

Properly implemented security measures in the US would have prevented 9/11. Why on earth the thirst for revenge was allowed to destroy the international consensus, two sovereign states, hundreds of thousands of lives and at least four national budgets, is a mystery. War is always the worst option.

rasmasyean

Sep 13, 2009, 06:38 AM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/on-helmands-frontline-with-the-us-marines-1786627.html

Remind me why we are in Afghanistan again. The whole thing is a disaster, and has been from the very beginning.

Properly implemented security measures in the US would have prevented 9/11. Why on earth the thirst for revenge was allowed to destroy the international consensus, two sovereign states, hundreds of thousands of lives and at least four national budgets, is a mystery. War is always the worst option.

There’s no such thing as an undefeatable security system.

As for why we fight? …for one thing, it brings the fight to the enemy. They want to fight anyway so it’s better for us to let them kill a couple of hundred soldiers in a wasteland than kill a couple of thousands defenseless civilians in a single blast. It’s also the job of soldiers to be meat shields while the workers produce more and more means to fight. Especially since the cost of lives is cheap there compared to real wars in the past. Heck, ppl die in training…at least dying there is not as embarrassing and justifies the dangerous work more than blowing up in an experimental aircraft in peacetime.

No entity can wage war without an economy. Even the rag tag Taliban need supplies from their allies from Pakistan and Iran, etc. They also get USSR leftovers in this case, but that’s why we’re there to find them b4 they use them. Why were WWII bombs aimed at factories where civilians are? Soft targets. Same in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Let them waste their ammo against our troops. That’s their job to take the bullets.

And in reality, perhaps it’s also profitable to some parties to invent weapons to counter these “threats”. As long as there’s a battlefield, the “demand” is there. The US has a highly profitable foreign defense industry in a world economy that has collapsed. “Hey look at what these can blow up! This works so great see? You want to buy some don’t you?” ;)
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=781126

barkmonster

Sep 13, 2009, 06:50 AM

Remind me why we are in Afghanistan again. The whole thing is a disaster, and has been from the very beginning.

Properly implemented security measures in the US would have prevented 9/11. Why on earth the thirst for revenge was allowed to destroy the international consensus, two sovereign states, hundreds of thousands of lives and at least four national budgets, is a mystery. War is always the worst option.

The whole 9/11 attack and resulted action in the middle east just shows how pointless wars seeded by religious hate, intolerance or fanaticism are. No one with any power should be allowed to use the old "my imaginary friend is better than yours" argument as an excuse for violence. There's plenty of sane people in the world with a value system from this millennium who could take their place.

They should pull all our troops out and level the entire country with every long range missile they've got. (nothing nuclear obviously). What use is Afghanistan to the rest of the world anyway?

For one, they produce a hell of a lot of opium so the west has to put up with the problems of smack heads or psycho doctors like harold shipman using opium based medication to kill people. I'm sure there's a ton of other negative effects countries like that have had on the world.

As for the Islamic extremism that triggered 9/11 in the first place. I wonder if 20% of the world would be so accepting of someone who claims to talk to supernatural beings, spouts his own version of a pre-existing mythology to get some very deluded people on his side, ends up shacking up with a 9 year old girl in his 50s so he can groom her for a few years then marries the poor kid 4 or 5 years later in THIS century?

djellison

Sep 13, 2009, 06:54 AM

Trying to impose western style democracy on a country like Afghanistan, is like imposting Sharia law on the Western World.

It's just wrong.

It's not our country, it's not our problem, but we HAVE made a mess of the place.

skunk

Sep 13, 2009, 01:36 PM

There’s no such thing as an undefeatable security system.There is, however, such a thing as gross incompetence.

As for why we fight? …for one thing, it brings the fight to the enemy.Which enemy? We turned a small group of dedicated extremists into a worldwide movement with almost inexhaustible manpower by means of the crassness of our foreign policy, the dishonesty of our motivation and the ineptitude of our military adventurism.
They want to fight anyway so it’s better for us to let them kill a couple of hundred soldiers in a wasteland than kill a couple of thousands defenseless civilians in a single blast.I expect you'll get the vote of all the military families with that line. Besides, what about the hundreds of thousands of defenceless civilians killed in Afghanistan and Iraq? You may call it a wasteland, but it's somebody else's country.It’s also the job of soldiers to be meat shields while the workers produce more and more means to fight. Especially since the cost of lives is cheap there compared to real wars in the past. Heck, ppl die in training…at least dying there is not as embarrassing and justifies the dangerous work more than blowing up in an experimental aircraft in peacetime.This is perhaps the most extraordinarily gross post I have seen on this forum, and it's up against some pretty stiff competition.And in reality, perhaps it’s also profitable to some parties to invent weapons to counter these “threats”. As long as there’s a battlefield, the “demand” is there. The US has a highly profitable foreign defense industry in a world economy that has collapsed. “Hey look at what these can blow up! This works so great see? You want to buy some don’t you?” You cannot seriously be trying to justify mass carnage in a pointless war by referring to the sales opportunities generated? Just where did you learn your ethics? What are you fighting for, principles or profit?

The whole 9/11 attack and resulted action in the middle east just shows how pointless wars seeded by religious hate, intolerance or fanaticism are. No one with any power should be allowed to use the old "my imaginary friend is better than yours" argument as an excuse for violence. There's plenty of sane people in the world with a value system from this millennium who could take their place.Are there? Which wars seeded by religious hate are you referring to? Al Qaeda are marginalised and the Taliban are fighting - very effectively, it seems - against an occupying coalition supporting a corrupt puppet regime in their own country. This has little to do with religion.

They should pull all our troops out and level the entire country with every long range missile they've got. (nothing nuclear obviously). What use is Afghanistan to the rest of the world anyway?I see you are competing with rasmasyean for the most ignorant and gross post of the year. What a revolting pair of posts!

For one, they produce a hell of a lot of opium so the west has to put up with the problems of smack heads or psycho doctors like harold shipman using opium based medication to kill people. I'm sure there's a ton of other negative effects countries like that have had on the world.The west buys the opium. It would not be a problem if the west did not. You can't seriously be blaming Afghanistan for Harold Shipman.

rasmasyean

Sep 13, 2009, 04:12 PM

Skunk…I just see the world for what it is. And hence, I offer an explanation as to why things are.

While you may have some sort of “ideals” about how you think the world should be, unfortunately, that’s just in fairy tale land. Just because someone can see something other than “knight in shining armor stories”, doesn’t mean they are unethical or gross or revolting.

Since you want to just exchange insults, I have just one for you. Naïve. Wake up!

BoyBach

Sep 13, 2009, 04:36 PM

It wasn't that long ago that rasmasyean was declaring the war in Afghanistan won. What went wrong?

They should pull all our troops out and level the entire country with every long range missile they've got. (nothing nuclear obviously). What use is Afghanistan to the rest of the world anyway?

I agree.

Also let's get rid of Vanuatu (we've already got Fiji, so what's the point in another Pacific Island?). Ooh, and Suriname, Guyana and the other one up in the north east of South America that make up that triumvirate of countries I can never remember the names of when I'm bored and compiling a list in my head of all the worlds countries. :rolleyes:

Just where did you learn your ethics?

Google University, presumably.

rasmasyean

Sep 13, 2009, 05:48 PM

It wasn't that long ago that rasmasyean was declaring the war in Afghanistan won. What went wrong?

When did I even imply that it was over and “won” or whatever you mean by that. The Afghan army is 100K+ strong and they are armed in with many US weapons as well as a matter of fact. And that’s perhaps part of the coalition’s main objective…to build a self-sustaining force for them to fend for themselves and pave the way to their OWN ability. And it turns out that we will likely be selling more arms to them in the future as mentioned…hence securing their power.

Even years from now there will prolly still be pockets of rebels (“terrorists”) and associated activity crop up now and then. And maybe the US, or Germans, or whoever will want to stick around and get a piece of the action…whatever. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the Pentagon and General Dynamics shareholders perhaps.

That’s why I’m saying that one possibility is that they are just hunkering down and letting the drones and whatever new weapon technology perform live experiments on the battlefield. Just as how you see they keep locating and killing “leaders”, they are proving the viability of the new found weapon systems.

skunk

Sep 13, 2009, 05:55 PM

Since you want to just exchange insults, I have just one for you. Naïve. Wake up!I have not insulted you personally. I have decried your posts for their obscenity and their inhumanity. As for your supposed insult to me, frankly I would rather die as a naïve idealist than live as a mass-murdering realist.

BoyBach

Sep 14, 2009, 12:35 PM

When did I even imply that it was over and “won” or whatever you mean by that.

You're right and I do apologise. (I got my Bush Imperial Wars muddled.)

barkmonster

Sep 18, 2009, 01:18 PM

Are there? Which wars seeded by religious hate are you referring to? Al Qaeda are marginalised and the Taliban are fighting - very effectively, it seems - against an occupying coalition supporting a corrupt puppet regime in their own country. This has little to do with religion.

The 9/11 attack WAS seeded by the religious hatred of Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists and WAS the catalyst for ALL the resultant action from the west in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Or to put it more simply.

The Taliban are deluded fanatics who'll kill, terrorise or oppress anyone who doesn't agree with all the barbaric and twisted rules of their "My imaginary friend is better than yours and everyone else is wrong" club.

How effectively the Taliban has fought the west on their own soil is nothing to do with the fact it was Islamic Fundamentalism that lead to the 9/11 attacks.

The west buys the opium. It would not be a problem if the west did not. You can't seriously be blaming Afghanistan for Harold Shipman.

Should I have kept it even more simple and left out the easy to understand examples of why Opium production is a bad thing no matter where it's happening by simply stating;

Opium production = BAD

Stopping Opium production = GOOD

?

skunk

Sep 18, 2009, 03:28 PM

The 9/11 attack WAS seeded by the religious hatred of Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists and WAS the catalyst for ALL the resultant action from the west in Iraq and Afghanistan.Absolute rubbish. The 9/11 attack was "seeded" by the presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia, and Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with it.

The Taliban are deluded fanatics who'll kill, terrorise or oppress anyone who doesn't agree with all the barbaric and twisted rules of their "My imaginary friend is better than yours and everyone else is wrong" club.This primitive thinking is precisely what gets our nations into these tragic, deadly and pointless adventures in the first place.

Should I have kept it even more simple and left out the easy to understand examples of why Opium production is a bad thing no matter where it's happening by simply stating;

Opium production = BAD

Stopping Opium production = GOOD

?It is not even true: we use opiates frequently, both for palliative medicine and for entertainment, and anyway production has gone UP since 2001. The Taleban were reducing production very effectively.

rasmasyean

Sep 18, 2009, 04:35 PM

The story of religious warring is not so straight forward and can’t simply put in terms of a “my god is better than yours so you shall die” story. Rather, various leaders often use religion as merely a vehicle to accomplish military and political objectives. Does it have to be true? Truth is something left for the individual after all. But if you can get someone to believe in your “jihad”, then you can get him to do all sorts of things in the name of it whether or not even you and your commanders actually believe it…never mind a whole country.

Some of the coalition soldiers believe in their own forms of “god and country”. They can’t be all right…but many will also perform their version of “jihad” in their own way. Just that they are not desperate enough to kamikaze themselves with suicide vests.

In reality, not all “Taliban” are like some Islamic style truth and justice fanatics. They are human too so among them are liars who have something to gain buy “following” this path to get ppl to blow themselves up. Some are just doing it for pay and benefits because that’s their way of life and it’s the only one they know. Some want to sell drugs. Others like power. Selling drugs can’t be “Islamic”, can it? But heck they would find some way to cover this contradiction when it’s needed to fund their political objectives.

So if anything it’s more about battling ignorance and desperation…which is the breeding ground for these types of ideas to be imprinted among people. There will always be fanatics from any walk of life, but if you reduce the amount of them, then you have won half the battle. If you let these leaders form an ignorant country, then you will have increased the chance of someone being in there training themselves or others to crash planes into buildings for whatever reason, whether it be Saudia Arabia or pornography.

The Nazi’s were sort of like religious zealots too. The SS were “carefully selected” from Aryan origins and indoctrinated with some sense of superiority and ancient Nordic beliefs or whatever… They made them capable to performing many horrors as well and turned them into a formidable fighting force to try to conquer many lands for Germany. If they are willing to fight to the death for whatever reason, then that’s a pretty good advantage. Unfortunate for them there was a country on an unreachable continent with a nearly unlimited means to produce weapons and a capability to level their cities with them. Oh well…I guess that’s one ignorant nation out of the way. LOL

jzuena

Sep 18, 2009, 09:22 PM

Absolute rubbish. The 9/11 attack was "seeded" by the presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia, and Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Right, Iraq had nothing to do with it. They didn't invade Kuwait, Sadam was just vacationing there. The Saudi government didn't ask us to bring troops there to keep Iraq from invading them as well, it was just a big timeshare sales pitch they were trying out. Desert Shield was just the beach umbrellas used during the sales pitch not a defensive force keeping Iraq, who had nothing to do with anything, from crossing the border there as well. Desert Storm was just Osama's temper-tantrum when his timeshare unit went unsold.

Iraq -- specifically Sadam's invasion of Kuwait -- is what precipitated every event in this chain. Osama wanted Saudi Arabia to take on Sadam on their own. King Fahd was smart enough to see that if something went wrong they would be open to invasion by Iraq and asked for help. This pissed Osama off. No invasion by the nothing to do with it Iraq, no US troops in Saudi Arabia.

Ugg

Sep 18, 2009, 11:58 PM

Right, Iraq had nothing to do with it. They didn't invade Kuwait, Sadam was just vacationing there. The Saudi government didn't ask us to bring troops there to keep Iraq from invading them as well, it was just a big timeshare sales pitch they were trying out. Desert Shield was just the beach umbrellas used during the sales pitch not a defensive force keeping Iraq, who had nothing to do with anything, from crossing the border there as well. Desert Storm was just Osama's temper-tantrum when his timeshare unit went unsold.

Iraq -- specifically Sadam's invasion of Kuwait -- is what precipitated every event in this chain. Osama wanted Saudi Arabia to take on Sadam on their own. King Fahd was smart enough to see that if something went wrong they would be open to invasion by Iraq and asked for help. This pissed Osama off. No invasion by the nothing to do with it Iraq, no US troops in Saudi Arabia.

It's amazing that your little tirade conveniently leaves out the fact that Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was sanctioned by the US.

I don't believe that your scenario is what really happened and I question whether we'll ever know what happened.

skunk

Sep 19, 2009, 03:22 AM

Iraq -- specifically Sadam's invasion of Kuwait -- is what precipitated every event in this chain.Nonsense. Diagonal drilling under the border by the Kuwaitis, using Bush 41's Pennzoil-supplied machinery, extracting oil from Iraqi territory, followed by April Glasspie's evident green light for retribution, was the trigger for the whole sequence. Iraq had nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden.

Zombie Acorn

Sep 19, 2009, 03:47 AM

Eraserhead

Sep 19, 2009, 08:04 AM

Google University, presumably.

don't you mean 4chan? :p

Eraserhead

Sep 19, 2009, 08:05 AM

barkmonster

Sep 19, 2009, 10:37 AM

so no more support for Israel?

Israel was the homeland of the Jews for thousands of years before the Romans and Islam invaded their land. They have every right to live there. So what if the invaders don't like it, can't they just go and live in Iran, Saudi Arabia or any of the other areas of the world their faith spread to?

At least they'll be with like minded people and won't need to hate or fight anyone.

skunk

Sep 19, 2009, 12:19 PM

Israel was the homeland of the Jews for thousands of years before the Romans and Islam invaded their land. They have every right to live there.The Israelites invaded and occupied the lands of the Canaanites and Philistines because their borrowed "god" allegedly told them they could. They remained in occupation for less than 1,000 years, then they were turfed out by the Babylonians. Then they re-occupied the land because an Iranian Kurd set them free. Then they overstepped the mark again and were turfed out by the Romans, and have been without a state ever since, until 1948. Now once again they are occupying the lands of the Canaanites and Philistines. They have every right to live there, as do the native Americans in the USA, but they surely do not have a right to steal the land and homes of others or run an apartheid-like system at the expense of the others who live in those lands.

rasmasyean

Sep 19, 2009, 01:19 PM

We've been screwing around in the middle east longer than I have been born. Thats why I am so surprised that Ron Paul was met with criticisms when he suggested that we may have done our part in causing 9/11.

Don't piss in someone else's cheerios and its likely they will leave yours alone. .

Solar Power.

We’ve been screwing around in the middle east before mostly all of us were born.

Black Gold is the addiction of the West. Without it, the West ceases to exist as we know it. We might as well become like how the Middle East is…rife with poverty and civil wars. The difference is that we put this oil to use by advancing our civilization. How this is achieved is via motivating citizens to turn the gears that drive the oil-guzzling industry in a slugfest of capitalistic slavery.

So what does the Middle East do with all their gold? The leaders sell it to the West in exchange for continuing their ancient rituals of Kingdom domination. Ignorance is their slavery…just as how the church ruled for centuries and performed holy wars against each other to battle for fertile land (Green Gold?).

To understand why humans do what they do, just follow the gold trail and you will find your answer. You might think we are above it all as some form of “enlightened individuals”. But take way all your luxuries and basic necessities and you will find out that you too…are just an animal who needs to feed. ;)

Zombie Acorn

Sep 19, 2009, 01:34 PM

so no more support for Israel?

I never supported Israel anymore than any other nation. I don't know why people would want to live there anyways.

jzuena

Sep 19, 2009, 02:28 PM

It's amazing that your little tirade conveniently leaves out the fact that Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was sanctioned by the US.

I don't believe that your scenario is what really happened and I question whether we'll ever know what happened.

Doesn't matter if we sanctioned it or not, the UN didn't. And the US signed on to the UN coalition. Whether we stabbed Saddam in the back or not, the coalition and therefore the US troops were asked into Saudi Arabia by King Fahd (do a Google search on "king fahd desert shield"... here is an entry in Encyclopedia Britannica (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/159089/Operation-Desert-Shield), since Wikipedia is frowned on by some). And their presence, as skunk stated, is what pissed Osama off. But their presence there DID have something to do with Iraq, which is the part I disagree with.

rasmasyean

Sep 19, 2009, 02:36 PM

I never supported Israel anymore than any other nation. I don't know why people would want to live there anyways.

It’s a historically significant land according to some religions. It is also used as a symbol of hope (or hype) because of this significance. The way I understand it, is that both the Jews and the Muslims share some sort of “birthplace” of some holy person that existed at one time….or a holy event. One can say that the “effective result”, is that it ties people to a faith and allows leaders to control and unite those people based upon that faith….which is often a foundation that supports a civilization…especially poor one which would otherwise be unstable.

Israeli’s do not benefit that much from the “land resources” itself to achieve their economic success. But apparently, the Jewish faith does have some ideals that contribute to a good work-ethic which makes a lot of Jewish people work hard and hence accomplish things. Therefore, what you get is a high-tech civilization surrounded by a bunch of low-tech desperate people who blame them and their ties to the US for oppression.

In reality, this “oppression” (wherever it comes from) would still exist even if the Jews were given “their home” in England instead, I would imagine. And just as how many Jews are successful in the US, they would have been the same in England regardless of who lived in that “Philistine” area.

skunk

Sep 19, 2009, 03:09 PM

Israeli’s do not benefit that much from the “land resources” itself to achieve their economic success. But apparently, the Jewish faith does have some ideals that contribute to a good work-ethic which makes a lot of Jewish people work hard and hence accomplish things. Therefore, what you get is a high-tech civilization surrounded by a bunch of low-tech desperate people who blame them and their ties to the US for oppression.This is not a very useful analysis: Israelis have enormous aid and subsidies contributing to their infrastructure, industry, military resources and research facilities, while the Palestinians/Philistines have virtually no licence to use their water resources or land effectively or at all. No crops are permitted by the Israelis in Gaza over 40cm in height, and 90% of the water resources in the Occupied Territories goes to the Jewish occupiers. All transport in and out of Palestinian lands is controlled by Israel. Power is intermittent. Security is fatally compromised. Property is sequestered, demolished, confiscated and commandeered at will. Political power is in the hands of puppets, except in Gaza, where the elected government is under permanent assault and sanction. What foreigner in his or her right mind would invest in Palestine? The Apartheid State of Israel is maintained by massive subsidies in order to form a US bridgehead inside Muslim territory, the imbalance being perpetuated and exacerbated by the huge military, political and diplomatic support given to the most repressive regimes surrounding Israel, like Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

Macky-Mac

Sep 19, 2009, 09:06 PM

..... Political power is in the hands of puppets.....

hmmmm.....I'm getting the feeling that you've gotten bored with all these threads about healthcare reform in the USA.

You make it sound like the Palestinians have lost all of their military confrontations with the jews over the last 80 or 90 years.......perhaps they should consider adjusting their strategy in light of such continuing failure?

skunk

Sep 20, 2009, 03:38 AM

You make it sound like the Palestinians have lost all of their military confrontations with the jews over the last 80 or 90 years.......perhaps they should consider adjusting their strategy in light of such continuing failure?You're right, they should just throw in the towel. What's the point of struggling?

rasmasyean

Sep 20, 2009, 12:45 PM

hmmmm.....I'm getting the feeling that you've gotten bored with all these threads about healthcare reform in the USA.

You make it sound like the Palestinians have lost all of their military confrontations with the jews over the last 80 or 90 years.......perhaps they should consider adjusting their strategy in light of such continuing failure?

Can't you tell that Skunk is a conspiracy theorist! ;)

Macky-Mac

Sep 20, 2009, 02:06 PM

You're right, they should just throw in the towel. What's the point of struggling?

throw in the towel?!?!? What??? And let israel collect the west bank and gaza into one unified state with lots and lots of palestinian citizens? :eek:

What an astonishing idea.

Anyway, I'm not saying the palestinians should throw in the towel.....rather, they need to reconsider their strategies and goals in light of what certainly seems to be a lack of success in their struggle after roughly 90 years?

Zombie Acorn

Sep 20, 2009, 02:17 PM

It’s a historically significant land according to some religions. It is also used as a symbol of hope (or hype) because of this significance. The way I understand it, is that both the Jews and the Muslims share some sort of “birthplace” of some holy person that existed at one time….or a holy event. One can say that the “effective result”, is that it ties people to a faith and allows leaders to control and unite those people based upon that faith….which is often a foundation that supports a civilization…especially poor one which would otherwise be unstable.

Well if they think thats true we should stop meddling in the middle east and just let God decide which one deserves the "holy land".

skunk

Sep 20, 2009, 03:00 PM

throw in the towel?!?!? What??? And let israel collect the west bank and gaza into one unified state with lots and lots of palestinian citizens? :eek:

What an astonishing idea.What a silly idea. You can't have a unified state divided by another, with no freedom of movement between the two sectors. That is no sovereignty, that is the Bantustan solution. The only real solution would be to re-establish a unitary state comprising both the Palestinian and Israeli territories. It may take another 90 years, but it's the only solution worth hanging for.

Macky-Mac

Sep 20, 2009, 04:06 PM

......The only real solution would be to re-establish a unitary state comprising both the Palestinian and Israeli territories. It may take another 90 years, but it's the only solution worth hanging for.

well there you go.....what you've described is what some call "Greater Israel" :rolleyes:

good luck with that!

skunk

Sep 20, 2009, 04:08 PM

well there you go.....what you've described is what some call "Greater Israel" :rolleyes:

good luck with that!...with full democracy for the whole population, of course. I prefer to call it "Greater Palestine".

Macky-Mac

Sep 20, 2009, 04:18 PM

...with full democracy for the whole population, of course. I prefer to call it "Greater Palestine".

sounds fine to me......I'd even be willing to go with your name suggestion but I suspect it would be a lot easier to sell the idea if there was a different name put on it....something a bit less deliberately hostile to one side or the other....perhaps it could be called Skunkistan? :p

hmmmmm, who could object to a country called Skunkistan?

skunk

Sep 20, 2009, 05:16 PM

Who indeed? :)

rasmasyean

Sep 21, 2009, 09:10 PM

Well if they think thats true we should stop meddling in the middle east and just let God decide which one deserves the "holy land".

Technically, the “holy land” is also shared by Christianity’s history. All these variations of religions pretty much come from the same root…just that over the centuries every bishop, rabbi, mullah, or whatever modified the “bible” to fill their own political purposes and to satisfy the need to maintain civil order as well as wreck havoc among an opposing civil order. For all we know, Jesus could have been some psycho and Mohamed could have been one heck of a lucky mass murderer…if they actually existed in some remote fashion represented in the texts.

Much of the “Christians” don’t really give a crap about the piece of rock over there however, as most of them are in the West where they don’t really rely on these artifacts to unify a civilization and live with each other as much as others regimes…let alone impose some sort of religious state. What the West DOES rely on, is the free market. Since Israeli’s play a decent part in that market and we like their wares, that’s good enough to favor their existence. Israel has the money to buy modern weapons and they sell need things, that’s a good enough reason to “meddle” in their affairs.

When you talk about countries and world economies, you must realize that your life is but a speck of dust. It doesn’t matter if a few people die because of some struggle, as long as the engine keeps going. That’s the world we live in. ;)

skunk

Sep 22, 2009, 01:31 AM

What the West DOES rely on, is the free market. Since Israeli’s play a decent part in that market and we like their wares, that’s good enough to favor their existence. Israel's industry is both heavily subsidised and protected from local competition by discriminatory regulation and prohibitive tariffs. What definition of "free market" are you using?

blackfox

Sep 22, 2009, 04:45 AM

Israel's industry is both heavily subsidised and protected from local competition by discriminatory regulation and prohibitive tariffs. What definition of "free market" are you using?

While I'm not sure how a thread on Afghanistan morphed into a discussion on Israel, I will say that much of the friction in the ME with regards to Israel is economic, not religious or cultural.

In the region, Israel's standard-of-living is desirable and unreachable by many neighboring Arabs - which can only breed resentment.

While certainly a dangerous proposition on Israel's part, a more open economic policy (ie inclusive of it's arab neighbors) could do much to calm relations in the region. I say dangerous, as some groups will and can profit from a divide between the Israelis and the Arabs. After all, the Arabs are also a non-homogenous group and have National and Cultural aspirations of their own.