Disgusting news bias revealed in report.

[mda01aqt]

'Researchers also found a strong emphasis on Israeli casualties on the news despite the number of Palestinian deaths being considerably greater.

And the differences in language used by journalists for both sides were also noted.

"Words such as 'atrocity', 'brutal murder', 'mass murder', 'savage cold blooded killing', 'lynching' and 'slaughter' were used about Israeli deaths but not Palestinian," the report said.

"The word 'terrorist' was used to describe Palestinians by journalists but when an Israeli group was reported as trying to bomb a Palestinian school, they were referred to as 'extremists' or 'vigilantes'." '

Q. life = life, or is israeli life > palestinian life?
Q. I really wnat to know is people support israel for biblical (+ torah) reasons?

[zimv20]

it's like there was more to your post, but it got deleted.

got a link?

[LeeTom]

I would believe it. The U.S. does NOT have a fair and balanced approach to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. It's intolerable in the first place, but then when you add that Osama Bin Laden cited this as the reason Al Qaeda orchestrated 9/11, it becomes something more than intolerable.

The U.S. and Israel are the only ones confused on the border issue, in my opinion. Israel has taken land outside their border since 1967, and has not only occupied Palestine, but Syria and Lebanon too. All the world would like to see them retreat into their 1967 borders.

Unfortunately, Israel has the third-largest nuclear capability in the world, and has a huge arsenal of other weapons of mass destruction. Not because of their own research, but because we provided them with the weapons and training. In turn, we have escalated the situation 10-fold, and have, in my opinion, created the current reality of "terrorism" and holy war.

Violence begets violence. Just ask the CIA where Saddam got his weapons and training from in the 1980s.

Lee Tom

[Voltron]

The U.S. and Israel are the only ones confused on the border issue, in my opinion. Israel has taken land outside their border since 1967, and has not only occupied Palestine, but Syria and Lebanon too. All the world would like to see them retreat into their 1967 borders.

Lee Tom
Has someone forgot that Israel was attacked in 1967. They then won that war and as a consession to winning the war as part of the peace agreement was ceded that land? In my view you attack me, I win, I now own your country as part of my own. They didn't go that far, they just wanted an increased buffer zone to insure their enemies wouldn't be able to use the high ground to lob rocket attacks at them as easily again. Ever heard the saying to the victor goes the spoils? Israel I think was generous in its peace treaty dealings after that war compared to how they could've been about it.

A reminder
The Arabs living within the British mandatory region of Palestine were hardly given the shaft. The British decided to give the part of Palestine east of the Jordan River to the Arabs for the Hashemites to govern in return for the Hashemites' help in World War II. This part is now the nation of Jordan. After that, the remaining section was divided between Arabs and Jews, the Arabs recieving Judea and Samaria (the "West Bank") and the area immediately surrounding the city of Gaza. The Arabs immediately decided (influenced by no small part by their prior alliance with Hitler) to invade Israel and take *all* of Palestine, and to drive the Jews into the sea. As a result of this war, Israel survived, Jordan got the West Bank, and Egypt got the Gaza Strip.

Fast-forward to 1963. Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia declare war on Israel and try to destroy it. At the end of the Six Day War, Israel has gained the Gaza Strip and the West Bank as a buffer to protect them from attack by the Arabs. They also grabbed the Golan Heights. It is at this point, in 1963, that Yasser Arafat (an Egyptian!) was chosen by the Arab League to lead the PLO. His mission: to destroy Israel from within.

There was great reluctance to refer to the Arabs as "Palestinians", because up until the Israeli declaration of independence, it was the Jews who were known as Palestinians. Also, most of the residents of the West Bank and Gaza were Syrians, Lebanese, Egyptians, etc. who either had secondary residences there or had other reasons for residing in Palestine. There was no Arab Palestinian national identity until it was invented in 1963 as a tactic to destroy Israel.

Many Palestinians now want peace. Many of them, however, instead choose to make themselves human bombs. Whether evil or misguided, they intend to kill Jews for the mere cause of killing Jews. It is these people who, if given statehood, would simply be given shelter and better opportunity to carry out their mission.

So what should be done? The plan I support would go something like this:

1. Turn the West Bank over to Jordan to administrate over in the same way Israel is administrating over it now.
2. Create a strong border.
3. Israel and Jordan cooperate to kill the wacko terrorist types.
4. Over time, let Palestinian society get on its feet.
5. Referendum in the West Bank over whether they want to join Jordan or be an independent country.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=18820&page=1&pp=25

[LeeTom]

Has someone forgot that Israel was attacked in 1967. They then won that war and as a consession to winning the war as part of the peace agreement was ceded that land? In my view you attack me, I win, I now own your country as part of my own. They didn't go that far, they just wanted an increased buffer zone to insure their enemies wouldn't be able to use the high ground to lob rocket attacks at them as easily again. Ever heard the saying to the victor goes the spoils? Israel I think was generous in its peace treaty dealings after that war compared to how they could've been about it.

They've taken much more than their share of a "buffer zone" throughout the 1970s and 1980s.

If I follow your logic, shouldn't we turn Germany over to Britain and the U.S.?

The truth is, Israel has completely overpowered the Palestinians, and has continued to take over land to this day. The Palestinians have no army, no defences. They are scared, fed up, and beaten. The only way they know how to do anything is through these bombings. I'm not justifying murder of any kind, but their backs are against the wall... They have been in this situation for decades. It's time Israel takes the high road and goes back to within their borders, demolishes their new "settlements," and learns to live in peace.

This is the real front to the war on terror, and we're losing.

Lee Tom

[Voltron]

If I follow your logic, shouldn't we turn Germany over to Britain and the U.S.?


Lee Tom
Technically yes, that would include Panama, and Japan. However, one must realize realistic possibilities and problems including the fact that it is not nice to rule with a gun and had we taken over the entire country and made them a colony of America we would be making the same mistake that UK did with America. I say that Israel could have incorporated those countries into themselves as a conclusion to their war, doesn't necessarily mean it would've been a good idea for them to do so. It was a great idea though to take enough land to provide a safety buffer between them as well as removing the advantage of high ground.

[Voltron]

The truth is, Israel has completely overpowered the Palestinians, and has continued to take over land to this day. The Palestinians have no army, no defences. They are scared, fed up, and beaten. The only way they know how to do anything is through these bombings. I'm not justifying murder of any kind, but their backs are against the wall... They have been in this situation for decades. It's time Israel takes the high road and goes back to within their borders, demolishes their new "settlements," and learns to live in peace.

This is the real front to the war on terror, and we're losing.

Lee Tom
If they were so scard tired and beaten they shouldn't of been committing all them terrostic acts trying to get Israel out of the Middle East. You cannot say the terroristic acts are a result of Israels treatment of the Palestinians. These terroristic acts have been going on for a very long time even well before 1967. Cause and affect doesn't work backwards.

How can israel "learn to live in peace" if Hamas, the PLO, Jihad, and other terrorist organizations in Palestine refuses to let them. Israel has tried time and time again to sit down with these people and talk peace. Their answer is always another suicide bomber. So no it simply won't work.

[Voltron]

This is what those innocent Palestinians teach their kids.

Quote:
Hamas kids' magazine: 'Destroy rapist Jews'
Periodical claims Iraqi children being 'torn to shreds' by U.S.

for those who can read arabic here is the magazine itself I think. http://www.al-fateh.net/

http://www.al-fateh.net/images8/fa8q4.gif
A monthly children's magazine published by the Hamas terrorist organization urges Palestinian and Iraqi children to pray for Allah to "destroy the cruel, rapist Jews" and bring victory to the Palestinian and Iraqi causes.

"The eighth edition of Al-Fateh [The Conqueror], was published [last month] and it seems that over the last eight months it has caught the eyes of its young readers," says an analysis by The Media Line, an Israel-based group offering news and commentary on the Middle East.
Pleas for violence against Jews, contained in the magazine's editorial, is preceded by descriptions of alleged suffering by Iraqi children as a result of the U.S.-led war to oust Saddam Hussein. It says the children are suffering due to cruelty being committed against them by coalition forces
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images2/hamashorse.gif
"The Conqueror" icon of the Al-Fateh magazine.

The editorial says the enemy's hatred and insensitivity "are caused by the Jewish filth, and they are inspired by the Jews' cruelty, heresy and barbarity."

Felice Friedson, president and CEO of The Media Line, told WorldNetDaily she believes the magazine's creators are ratcheting up the hate-filled rhetoric against Israel and the Jewish faith to attract more readers – a ploy that seems to be working.

She said the magazine's website has attracted 1.6 million visitors since its launch. It uses simple language, light stories and endearing illustrated characters, TML analysts have said.

+ more http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31943

also here http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29535

TROUBLE IN THE HOLY LAND
Hamas launches webzine for kids
Journal praises martyrs, encourages children to follow example
Islamic terror group Hamas has launched a new Web magazine for kids that praises martyrs while encouraging children to follow the example of committing suicide for the "cause."

Complete with cartoon characters and other pictures demonstrating the "heroism of Palestinian children," the online magazine, titled Al-Fateh, promises "pages discussing Jihad (holy war), scientific pages, the best stories, not be found elsewhere, and unequalled tales of heroism." The webzine's editor hopes it will be read by "our beloved youth, the leaders of the future."

Yeah sure they want peace.

[Voltron]

And when they do kill innocents they brag about it like it was a good thing.

Two Palestinian terror groups have claimed responsibility for shooting dead a seven-year-old Israeli girl and wounding her five-year-old sister.

The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and the PFLP-General Command both claimed responsibility for the shooting near the town of Qalqiliya in the West Bank.

Al-Aqsa is linked to Yasser Arafat's Fatah faction.

The Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmood Abbas has offered Hamas a role in his government as part of a truce package, but no deal has been reached.

"If the Palestinian Authority continues to do nothing, we will take all appropriate action to make this bloodshed stop," said Israeli spokesman Avi Pazner.

The family of eight were driving through the West Bank when two gunmen opened fire on their car before fleeing.

Noam Leibowitz, seven, was killed and her five-year-old sister was severely wounded. Their grandfather and another child were also hurt.

forum with 110+ pages of quotes like this I've been arguing on this particular subject for a very long time I'm known as Sly69 here. http://www.imesh.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=228316&highlight=palestinian+cartoon#228316

They brag about how they are makign the infedels pay by killing a 7 year old girl. They didn't accidentally kill here while warring on their enemies, they think she is their enemy.

[mda01aqt]

sorry, zimv20 heres the link

the link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3829967.stm)

i think the arguement that the land is a buffer zone is a pathetic one, and even if they won the land through war, it is still considered illegal under international law. therefore either the sraelis are beyond international law or they should abide by it!

i did my year 9 (14yrs old) history project on te israeli-palestine project (not claiming that i am an expert on the subject) but i remember reading that the israel pre-emptively attacked the Eygptian airforce (or Jordanian) if im not mistaken before the war started. therefore debateable who started it.

The fact is that the arabs for centuries treated the Jews with respect from the start of te islamic faith, as a peace treaty was signed between the jews and the arabs. they were free to travel theough the muslim lands and were treated with equal respect. it is a shame that the israeli governments have destoyed this relationshp forming a region that 'hates' israelis within half a century, eventhough they are not all responsible or agree with the actions of their country.

by the way i refuse to acknowledge israel as a 'jewish state', as that would be an insult to judaism,as the government cannot even follow the 10 commandments never mind the rest of the law written in the torah!

Quote by Voltron, "How can israel "learn to live in peace" if Hamas, the PLO, Jihad, and other terrorist organizations in Palestine refuses to let them.

voltron, there are also terrorist organisations within the west bank and gaza strip which are not palestinian, but jewish. you can argue that they probaly formed after the palestinians attacked them,.......but wouldnt that be aiding the palestinains arguement?

[Voltron]

Actually on that thread I posted a fellow poster, kid, who lives in Israel posted a timeline of all the terrorist actions against them. It went back way before the 1940's that the arabs were terrorizing the Jews. I would look it up and post it but I have time constraints. It should be there on that link around page 100+ or - a few pages.

[mda01aqt]

Voltron, I must say that the figures you showed were sad to see, but these are not facts, there may be no underlying truth but may just be propaganda trying to justify the Israeli governments perspective of Palestinians being barbaric. If I look hard enough on the Internet I probably could find ‘information’ stating the opposite. You have to remember that the war did not involve the Palestinians but the surrounding Arab countries. The question has to be asked why the Palestinians should pay for someone else’s mistakes, if anyone even suggests that they are all Arab, therefore the Palestinians deserve their fate, is obviously showing their lack of intelligence.

You also have to remember the first terrorist act recorded in British mandate Palestine, was committed by the immigrant Jewish population.

[Voltron]

Voltron, I must say that the figures you showed were sad to see, but these are not facts, there may be no underlying truth but may just be propaganda trying to justify the Israeli governments perspective of Palestinians being barbaric. If I look hard enough on the Internet I probably could find ‘information’ stating the opposite. You have to remember that the war did not involve the Palestinians but the surrounding Arab countries. The question has to be asked why the Palestinians should pay for someone else’s mistakes, if anyone even suggests that they are all Arab, therefore the Palestinians deserve their fate, is obviously showing their lack of intelligence.

You also have to remember the first terrorist act recorded in British mandate Palestine, was committed by the immigrant Jewish population.
But are the Palestinians paying for the Jews mistakes or for their fellow Arabs mistakes? I think they are looking the wrong direction they should be looking for recompensation to the countries who gave their lands away, not at the ones who received their land.

A favorite metaphor of mine. If the US decided to attack Mexico and lost the war. Mexico would then have the right to declare all of the US as property of the Mexicans. Now I doubt they would do that, they would probably only want Texas. Ok now all Texans have to leave Texas. Mexico would be in their right to drive them out like cattle up to and including the use of lethal force. Now then if Texans want compensation for the loss of their property they would be wrong to try to get it from Mexico who received that property as the price for piece. It would be up to the US to compensate the Texans or not as they saw fit.

[mda01aqt]

please dont use jews, the israelis are not innocent as ur trying to make them out to be. the arabs have invested billions of dollars intot he palestinian terrorities just to find out that the missiles, helicopter gunships, tanks and bulldozers destroy what they invested in. The EU has said the same.

well the surrounding arab states made a mistake by trying to form a coalition against israel, but like i said in the last post, had israel provoked them?

your favourit metaphor also work by accepting the law of the jungle, and totally sweeping aside international law.

the metaphor is also flawed, as your would have to include another countries or countries which attack mexico. so the metaphor would include that cuba and the dominican republic attacked mexico does that give the mexican the right for US land? only a unintellectual person would say yes.

[Taft]

...

A reminder

...



This is the most disgustingly biased account of the Six Day War and its fallout I have ever read.

I'm going to refer you to an encylopedia to read a more balanced view. Please, read all sides rather than believe the right wing blather you read on frontpagemag (whose primary contributer, David Horowitz, is as big an anti-muslim racist as any palestinian anti-semite).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

Taft

[Voltron]

This is the most disgustingly biased account of the Six Day War and its fallout I have ever read.

I'm going to refer you to an encylopedia to read a more balanced view. Please, read all sides rather than believe the right wing blather you read on frontpagemag (whose primary contributer, David Horowitz, is as big an anti-muslim racist as any palestinian anti-semite).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

Taft
Nice link includes stuff like

At that time, no Arab state had recognized Israel's right to exist, and many considered Israel's long-term prospects for survival to be rather dim. The aftermath of the 1956 war saw the region return to an uneasy balance, maintained more by the competition among Egypt, Syria and Jordan than any real resolution of the region's difficulties. Egypt and Syria, who were backed by the Soviet Union, and Jordan, supported by Britain, maintained a constant pressure of guerilla raids on Israeli civilians. Israeli armed forces were disciplined and enjoyed massive air superiority.

I guess you have a problem is Israel trying to stop the guerilla, terrorists, raids on their civilians.

Several years later, in response to Israel's construction of the National Water Carrier, Syria initiated a plan to divert the waters of the Dan (Banias) stream so that the water would not enter Israel and the Sea of Galilee, but rather flow through Syria to Jordan and into the Jordan river. In addition to sponsoring Palestinian attacks against Israel (often through Jordanian territory, much to King Hussein's chagrin), Syria also began shelling of Israeli civilian communities in north-eastern Galilee, from gun emplacements on the Syrian-controlled Golan Heights. Although in 1964, Israel managed to destroy the water-diversion facilities, the border remained a scene of constant conflict, and the Israeli North was under continuous threat from Syrian guns.

Israel like I said was fighting for their survival.


Israel's own sense of concern regarding Jordan's future role originated in Jordanian control of West Bank. This put Arab forces just 17 kilometers from Israel's coast, a jump-off point from which a well co-ordinated tank assault could cut Israel in two within half an hour. While the small size of Jordan's army meant that Jordan was probably incapable of executing such a manoeuvre, the country had a long history of being used by other Arab states as staging grounds for operations against Israel; thus, attack from the West Bank was always viewed by the Israeli leadership as a severe threat to Israel's existence.

Israel watched these developments with alarm, and tried various diplomatic routes to try settling them. The U.S. and U.K. were asked to open the Tiran straits, as they guaranteed they would in 1957. Jordan was asked through numerous channels to refrain, weeks before the war by the Jewish lobby in the USA. All Israeli requests for peace were left unanswered, creating a feeling of grave concern for the future of the country. Israelis claimed that the closing the Straits met the international criteria for an act of war. On June 3 the American administration gave its acquiescence to an operation against Egypt, and plans for war were finally approved.


So what is the problem here of the version I posted vs the version you posted?

http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/thumb/c/cb/250px-Al-Farida%2C_Lebanon_pre-1967_war.jpg
Nasser (Egypt), backed by other Arab states, throws Israel into the sea. Pre-1967 War cartoon. Al-Farida newspaper, Lebanon

I guess the right wing "blather" of Horowitz was right on the money after all. Looks to me he used the same source you did.

[Taft]

I had a big ol' reply written up to this post, but the forum closing for the Big Event nuked it. Darn. Here is my condensed version...

You'll notice that all of my responses share a common theme: you need to dig deeper. Not to be condescending, but your comments show a unabashed ignorance of Israeli actions from the creation of their state until today. Sure, if you ignore all of the actions that Israel has made for the last 50+ years, it is easy to see Egypt, Jordan, and the Palestinians as pure evil. Fact is, Israel HAS acted in the last 50+ years and not all of those actions have been in the interest of peace or fair to the Arab peoples of the region.

That being said...

I guess you have a problem is Israel trying to stop the guerilla, terrorists, raids on their civilians.

I have no problem with Israel protecting their citizens whatsoever. But you, once again, are looking at only half of the story. From wikipedia's entry on the Suez crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Suez_War)

Throughout 1956, conflict increased between Israel and Egypt, with Egyptian fedayeen launching frequent incursions into Israeli territory and Israel launching raids into Egyptian territory. Egypt, under the leadership of President Gamal Abdul Nasser, blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba and closed the Suez canal to Israeli shipping. At the same time, Egypt nationalized the canal, a vital trade route to the east, in which British banks and business held a 44% stake. This was done in order to raise revenue for the construction of the Aswan High Dam on the Nile River. Previously, the United States and Britain had agreed to help pay for this project, but cancelled their support after Egypt extended diplomatic recognition to Communist China.

...

In the months that followed Egypt's nationalisation of the canal, a secret meeting between Israel, France and Britain took place at Sèvres, outside Paris. Details only emerged years later, as records of the meeting were suppressed and destroyed. All parties were agreed that Israel should invade and that Britain and France would subsequently intervene, instruct the Israeli and Egyptian armies to withdraw their forces either side of the canal, and then place an Anglo-French intervention force in the Canal Zone around Port Said. It was to be called "Operation Musketeer".

So Israel was launching raids of their own during the aftermath of the Israel's war of independence. Further, Israel, with the aid of Britain and France, planned and executed an attack on Egypt in 1956. What a peace loving and wonderful nation Israel is! But this isn't to say Egypt was all good. Far from it. What was going on was a struggle for power, regional dominance, and ultimately, survival. But remember: Israel wasn't the only country fighting for survival.

Egypt, for example, built the Aswan High Dam for their increasing power needs. However, this posed a serious danger to Egypt as well: a well place Israeli bomb could potentially take down the dam, likely raising Egypt and almost all live in it. The stakes were very high for Egypt.

Jordan, as another example, was militarily very weak when compared to either Israel or Egypt (especially around the time of the Six-Day War). Given that most Arab nation at the time were in fierce competition with one another, Jordan feared not only Israel's might, but Egypt's as well. This posed a serious problem for them during the Six-Day War. Religious ideology aside, Jordan really had very little to gain from the Six-Day War and was in great peril from all sides. If they didn't involve themselves on the Arab side and Egypt had won the war, Egypt would likely have plowed through Israel and taken Jordan for themselves. If they did involve themselves, and Israel won, they faced the same fate.

Really their involvement was a gamble for survival. They saw Egypt as the more powerful of the two nations and allied themselves with Egypt.

Which makes the following quite specious...

Israel like I said was fighting for their survival.

Yeah, so was everyone else. And all of them were willing to resort to dirty tactics to be the "last man standing."

I guess the right wing "blather" of Horowitz was right on the money after all. Looks to me he used the same source you did.

No he wasn't right. He, like you, likes to revise history to only include the atrocities and moral misteps of the Arab world. Problem is, Israel resorted to most of the same tactics throughout their history as the Arab world has used on them.

Some might say, "what goes around comes around." I just say that none of them have any kind of moral high ground or justification for their behavior. Sure, they are all trying to survive. But at the same time, they have shown no ability to consider paths to peace.

Taft

[Voltron]

Still Israel can't make peace with those who refuse to make peace with them. So what if a section of Palestinian population wants to make peace, the militant ones overrides that. Until the terrorists are defeated it is easy to overlook any of Israels mishaps in dealing with them.

[themadchemist]

A favorite metaphor of mine. If the US decided to attack Mexico and lost the war. Mexico would then have the right to declare all of the US as property of the Mexicans. Now I doubt they would do that, they would probably only want Texas. Ok now all Texans have to leave Texas. Mexico would be in their right to drive them out like cattle up to and including the use of lethal force. Now then if Texans want compensation for the loss of their property they would be wrong to try to get it from Mexico who received that property as the price for piece. It would be up to the US to compensate the Texans or not as they saw fit.

So much for the delicate art of diplomacy and treaty construction. :rolleyes:

[Taft]

So much for the delicate art of diplomacy and treaty construction. :rolleyes:

It is also a very flawed analogy.

As any historically accurate source would tell you (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War), Israel was the first country to attack in the Six-Day War. This WAS in response to aggressive moves by Egypt and Jordan's acquiescence to Egypt's defense agreements. However, to keep things in context, in the years before the Six-Day War there had been considerable build-up in hostilities from both sides (See: Suez Crisis).

To say that Israel was "attacked" would be a bit disingenuous. They and Egypt were enemies and mutual hostility had been building for some time. Further, despite PhilOfMac's assertion, and Voltron's backing of that assertion, Egypt did not declare war on Israel (nor did any other Arab country).

Quite frankly, I'm sick of hearing this line from the rabid pro-Israel camp.

Taft

[Taft]

Still Israel can't make peace with those who refuse to make peace with them. So what if a section of Palestinian population wants to make peace, the militant ones overrides that. Until the terrorists are defeated it is easy to overlook any of Israels mishaps in dealing with them.

And from the Palestinian perspective, it is easy to overlook the actions of the suicide bombers given all of the oppression Israel has reigned down upon the Palestinians.

Can't you see that this attitude, from BOTH sides, is exactly what is stalling the peace process?

Taft

[Voltron]

And from the Palestinian perspective, it is easy to overlook the actions of the suicide bombers given all of the oppression Israel has reigned down upon the Palestinians.

Can't you see that this attitude, from BOTH sides, is exactly what is stalling the peace process?

Taft
Changing the Israelites position of defending themselves or retaliating against terrorism would only get more Jews killed. Because Hamas isn't going to voluntarily change their stance. So whether or not Israel would doesn't matter, unless perhaps the Palestinians started policing their own and showing the world they are willing to punish the ones in their society who refuse to stop the violence. Then Israel would have no choice but to back off.

However in this type of arguments I've had in the past there are those that think that means Israel should allow Palestinians back into their lands for medical care, or for jobs etc. They forget that these are two different countries and Israel is not required to provide jobs or medical care for those who don't live in their own country. Not only should Palestinians police their own they should govern their own if they are to be their own country.

[Taft]

However in this type of arguments I've had in the past there are those that think that means Israel should allow Palestinians back into their lands for medical care, or for jobs etc. They forget that these are two different countries and Israel is not required to provide jobs or medical care for those who don't live in their own country. Not only should Palestinians police their own they should govern their own if they are to be their own country.

Riiiigggghhht. Because 40 years of Israeli crackdowns, occupancy and oppression have had absolutly no economic or social impacts on Palestine, right? Again, you completely forget that Israel has been an active part of this problem.

Let me ask you this. Let's say you were a common person living in an area which was taken over by a foreign nation. That nation kept you in settlements which required you to live in a shack or ramshackle house. That nation kept you oppressed, which severely limited your freedoms, your access to medical care or education, etc. In short, you had little to live for.

What would you do? Would you sit around a say, "oh, this isn't so bad!" Or would you want to fight for you liberation?

I am not defending terrorism or Palestinian tactics. What I'm saying is that a people without hope for the future is a breeding ground for hate and violence. Israel is a large part of the reason Palestinians have no hope for the future.

Taft

[Voltron]

What would you do? Would you sit around a say, "oh, this isn't so bad!" Or would you want to fight for you liberation?

I am not defending terrorism or Palestinian tactics. What I'm saying is that a people without hope for the future is a breeding ground for hate and violence. Israel is a large part of the reason Palestinians have no hope for the future.

Taft
You don't fight for your freedom by blowing up school buses.
If I didn't leave and return to my country of origin as documented by my passport and visa as they should have then yes I probably would fight. Fight the military not the civilians.

[Taft]

You don't fight for your freedom by blowing up school buses.
If I didn't leave and return to my country of origin as documented by my passport and visa as they should have then yes I probably would fight. Fight the military not the civilians.

Answer what I asked you!!!!!!! This is no longer a request. This is an ultimatum. I am willing to debate you, but only if you engage in the debate in fair capacity.

I flat out said I wasn't defending the tactics of the Palestinians. I was simply saying that when you give a people no hope for the future, violence inevitably ensues.

Engage in this debate in a fair manner, or get the heck out. I'm just so sick of it.

Taft

[mactastic]

You don't fight for your freedom by blowing up school buses.
If I didn't leave and return to my country of origin as documented by my passport and visa as they should have then yes I probably would fight. Fight the military not the civilians.

Right, you fight for your freedom by assasinating civilians in crowds huh? Regardless of the collatoral damage no less. Or by torturing your prisoners?

[Voltron]

Answer what I asked you!!!!!!! This is no longer a request. This is an ultimatum. I am willing to debate you, but only if you engage in the debate in fair capacity.

I flat out said I wasn't defending the tactics of the Palestinians. I was simply saying that when you give a people no hope for the future, violence inevitably ensues.

Engage in this debate in a fair manner, or get the heck out. I'm just so sick of it.

Taft
Thats the future they are giving Israelites by using terrorist tactics and blowing up school buses.
I don't concede that Israel has given Palestinians no hope for the future. If things worked perfectly both sides would stay on their own side of the border and live or die on their own devices. But Israel doesn't have that choice as long as terrorists keep coming over the border attacking them. Perhaps once the wall is finished they will concede put a UN border patrol on the wall that actually prevents either side from crossing over and then maybe they'll calm down. But Israel can't stop retailiating against terrorism as long as there is terroristic attack on their soil by those outside of their soil.

[Voltron]

Right, you fight for your freedom by assasinating civilians in crowds huh? Regardless of the collatoral damage no less. Or by torturing your prisoners?
At least Israel is targeting military, or terrorist targets.
Personally when I saw on tv the other day folks getting together celebrating a successful terrorist strike I wonder why someone didn't drop a napalm on them. Those who cheer on these terrorist are as bad as those terrorist.

[mactastic]

At least Israel is targeting military, or terrorist targets.
Personally when I saw on tv the other day folks getting together celebrating a successful terrorist strike I wonder why someone didn't drop a napalm on them. Those who cheer on these terrorist are as bad as those terrorist.

And what of suicide attacks on buses carrying soldiers? Are they not fair game?

[Voltron]

And what of suicide attacks on buses carrying soldiers? Are they not fair game?
If that is what they were targeting yes. I still don't like suicide attacks, but technically *shrug*. However Hamas targets anything that moves irregardless to age. However if they do decide to do that then that means they are at war and Israel then has the right to occupy the entire country of Palestine the same as we did Iraq.

[mactastic]

There's a country of Palestine??? :eek:

Why have I not been told of this?

[takao]

hm the isreal-palestine situation would be best described as a car stuck in the mud....so stuck that both who are sitting in the car (isreal and palastinian guy) would be needed to push the car out of the mud...but both are sitting in the car and beating each other ...

[Taft]

I give up.

You won't participate in a fair and honest discussion.

Ignored for good.

Taft

[mda01aqt]

The post was not to discuss in ones views on the israeli-palestinian conlict and the histoy of it, but how the media, the organisations which end up educating the majority of the population are biased towards the israeli cause, which is not helpul for the general publics perception o the the conflict.

What i see if that US media is heavily biased towards the Israelis, in many cases not even reporting on attacks by Israeli settlers (terrorists ;) ) on the Palestinians or even when the israeli military attack civilian housing. there was no report on the CNN, Fox News and MNBC news bullein of the israeli military shooting at a UN group consisitng of members of parliament from many countries including Britain a few weeks ago.

I was also appauled that CNN, BBC and other news organisations played videos of palestinians celebrating on 9/11, just to find out that those pictures were approximately 3 years old!!!

These news biased existed before the 9/11 incidence, therefore that is not to blame. The result of the media being biased towards Israel ends up in the common person supporting Israel without consideration for the Palestinians.

[Taft]

The post was not to discuss in ones views on the israeli-palestinian conlict and the histoy of it, but how the media, the organisations which end up educating the majority of the population are biased towards the israeli cause, which is not helpul for the general publics perception o the the conflict.

What i see if that US media is heavily biased towards the Israelis, in many cases not even reporting on attacks by Israeli settlers (terrorists ;) ) on the Palestinians or even when the israeli military attack civilian housing. there was no report on the CNN, Fox News and MNBC news bullein of the israeli military shooting at a UN group consisitng of members of parliament from many countries including Britain a few weeks ago.

I was also appauled that CNN, BBC and other news organisations played videos of palestinians celebrating on 9/11, just to find out that those pictures were approximately 3 years old!!!

These news biased existed before the 9/11 incidence, therefore that is not to blame. The result of the media being biased towards Israel ends up in the common person supporting Israel without consideration for the Palestinians.


While I agree with your position, not everyone does. Voltron, for example, thinks that the media, being unabashedly liberal and all, is actually biased AGAINST Israel.

These discussions always end up the same way. I don't know why I even get involved. Some people just don't want to look at the facts.

Taft

[LeeTom]

The only time I remember seeing the news media question Israel's tactics was when they killed an American, my friend Rachel. :mad:

Lee Tom

[Voltron]

The only time I remember seeing the news media question Israel's tactics was when they killed an American, my friend Rachel. :mad:

Lee Tom
The girl trying to prevent them from excavating a bush in front of a house that was covering up a tunnel being used to smuggle weapons? That Rachel?

[Sayhey]

The only time I remember seeing the news media question Israel's tactics was when they killed an American, my friend Rachel. :mad:

Lee Tom

Sorry, didn't know you were her friend. I've read about her death and the activities of people who try to stop Israeli actions against innocents. It takes an amazing amount of courage to place one's body in the way of a bulldozer. No, the mainstream media doesn't cover the impact of Israel's occupation on the lives of Palestinians. It's not news because it has gone on for over half century.

[mda01aqt]

The girl trying to prevent them from excavating a bush in front of a house that was covering up a tunnel being used to smuggle weapons? That Rachel?

that is the most insensitive thing i have heard. u are officialy a twat in my eyes now!!!!!

ur so gulable, if u believe every excuse israel gives, 1/2 of rafah must have been covered with tunnels. some advice weirdo, u wait for facts before u believe them (being judgemental).

[zimv20]

please mind the personal insults

[skunk]

The girl trying to prevent them from excavating a bush in front of a house that was covering up a tunnel being used to smuggle weapons? That Rachel?
Credible link please. No specious excuses for killing an unarmed civilian, please.

[skunk]

that is the most insensitive thing i have heard. u are officialy a twat in my eyes now!!!!!

ur so gulable, if u believe every excuse israel gives, 1/2 of rafah must have been covered with tunnels. some advice weirdo, u wait for facts before u believe them (being judgemental).
Steady there. Keep it clean.

[LeeTom]

The girl trying to prevent them from excavating a bush in front of a house that was covering up a tunnel being used to smuggle weapons? That Rachel?

No, the pacifist Rachel that was giving humanitarian aid at a Palestinean refugee camp. She was trying to save an innocent family's home. She was killed by an Israeli miltary man in a bulldozer, while wearing bright orange and using a bullhorn to communicate with the driver. After he ran her down, he backed up, then poured debris over her body. All American witnesses have no doubt that it was done with malicious intent.

There has been no evidence of weapons or a tunnel at the home that was demolished.

The U.S. has condemned Israel and asked for a full investigation, but more than a year later, nothing has changed.

My friend is still dead, though.

Lee Tom

[zimv20]

i'm sorry for the loss of your friend. she deserved better.

[Voltron]

Credible link please. No specious excuses for killing an unarmed civilian, please.
I don't keep every single news item I've ever read filed away with links leading to them. However, this particular topic I've been writing about for over a year and that forum where I wrote on this topic still exists so these links are at my fingertips.
One thing though I'm working these links backwards.

When Corrie died more than a year ago, it was no great stretch to suspect that she and others who converged on Israel's territories knowingly supported terrorists. There was certainly no proof and it was just as difficult to figure out any hard connection.

At the time, my chief objection to Corrie and her pals with the International Solidarity Movement was their interference with Israeli military activities. Most are foreigners who endanger lives by the simple act of stepping foot into the middle of a war zone. They put the lives of everyone - themselves, Israeli troops and the Arabs they purport to help - at risk in an already tense and volatile situation.

Please remember the group she belonged to International Solidarity Movement. I have additional information on them where their members have been in harms way multiple times while protecting terrorists.

The raid on Rafah brings new facts to light indicating that Corrie and other ISM members had to know they were aiding and abetting terrorists, if they were not participating in terrorism themselves.

The 23-year-old Corrie, who traveled more than 8,000 miles from Olympia, Washington, was run over by a bulldozer when she tried to block the vehicle from demolishing a house in Rafah - a house where she had been staying.

The Israeli military ruled that this was an accident and ISM members accused the driver of murder even before the military could investigate the incident.

It may pass the "reasonable person" test that these ISM'ers knew very well they were helping terrorists. What would a reasonable person conclude?

Consider: The Israeli government revealed that 90 weapons-smuggling tunnels were constructed between the Egyptian border and Rafah. At least some of these tunnels were known to end underneath the homes in Rafah.

With 90 tunnels running underneath Rafah, there must have been lots of suspicious activity. Corrie and her friends would have had to be blind not to notice.

First, there are the tunnel connections underneath the homes. ISM'ers who stayed with Gazan families might have seen the tunnels themselves, or they at least spotted people going back and forth from the basement of the home.

During deliveries, people would have been hauling the goods out of the homes. Maybe Corrie herself did some heavy lifting.

The weapons then had to be transported somehow. Vehicles appear to be the natural choice. They would have had to be driven to the tunnel entrances and the weapons would need to be loaded onto the trucks.

Would you wonder about this kind of activity if you were personally on the scene?

Wherever ISM members mingled and even lived among Gaza and West Bank Arabs, it is possible that many of these Arabs were terrorists or helped the terrorists by feeding and housing them. The ISM'ers could have been at gatherings where they were introduced to suspected terrorists, heard stories about violent activities or noticed otherwise suspicious activity.

Actually, there is not only evidence, but proof of ISM aiding and abetting terrorists. When terrorists seized a church in Bethlehem, a few ISM'ers smuggled food to them.

If you put it all together, a reasonable person must conclude that the ISM members knew they were aiding and abetting terrorists.

The instant that it dawned on any of them that they might be helping terrorists was precisely the time for them to end their involvement. That's what a sincere and honorable person would have done.

Perhaps some ISM'ers dismissed such validation on grounds that this was the Arabs' only mechanism to resist Israel's brutal occupation. Which would excuse, in their warped minds, the murder of hundreds of innocent human beings.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13596

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7361

One event, two radically stories. Two radically different Tom Hurndalls. But which is true? We simply don't know. Right now an inquiry is underway, but conclusions have not been reached. One might be tempted to prefer the International Solidarity Movement's version, just based on its popularity in the American press. But the American press has not told us all we need to know. Often Hurndall's organization, the International Solidarity Movement, has not even been
mentioned.

This media silence is unfortunate, for the International Solidarity Movement has been very active lately. Three of their members have been killed or seriously injured in less than a month; Tom Hurndall was only the latest. Another member, Brian Avery, was wounded on April 5th while breaking a curfew in the Palestinian settlement of Jenin. Milling with young men throwing rocks at the Israeli Defense Forces, Avery was wound by the debris thrown up by a warning shot near his feet. While Avery will live, some of the debris tore into his face, and he will require plastic surgery for his wounds.

The first incident was the most serious, and the most reported in the press - the March 16th death of twenty-three year old Rachel Corrie, crushed beneath a bulldozer in Rafah when its operator failed to see her. Corrie was attempting to prevent the destruction of a Palestinian home, as the press widely reported. But most of the press (but not FrontPagemag.com) failed to report the presence of extensive tunnels underneath the homes of Rafah, used to deliver arms across the Egyptian border to the terrorist Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Houses involved in such smuggling are demolished as a matter of course. And when Corrie was killed, according to a Israeli Consulate media officer in San Francisco, the bulldozer was not even attempting to raze a home - just remove shrubbery used to hide a tunnel. Rachel Corrie died for nothing. An inquiry into her death found that she and other members of the International Solidarity Movement had engaged in "illegal, irresponsible, and dangerous" behavior. Indeed - by blocking the destruction of these houses, the International Solidarity Movement may have contributed to the arming of terrorists and the murder of innocent people.

more to follow don't want to clutter.

[Voltron]

This link shows Solidarity Movement tried to show that her death was murder with pictures. The problem is they used the wrong pictures. The picture links themselves are gone the host of the site deleted them for some reason.

WHAT REALLY HAPPENED TO RACHEL CORRIE?
A Peace Activist Intentionally Murdered – Or Not

http://www.btnhboard.com/~scrub/corrie.htm

On March 16, 2003, an activist with the International Solidarity Movement was run over by an Israeli bulldozer attempting to tear down a Palestinian house. Her name was Rachel Corrie.

It was not long after when many began to accuse Israel of “murder” of an “innocent peace activist”. The ISM chose to misrepresent photos to fit their agenda, give several conflicting accounts of her death, and gave a new meaning to “guilty ‘til proven innocent”.

THE MEGAPHONE PHOTO
One of the things used most was to ‘prove’ that Rachel was intentionally murdered was a photo of her in front of a bulldozer with a megaphone. Many took that out of context to believe that that was the bulldozer she was hit by, and she was in that position while hit. Michael Rivero of WhatReallyHappened claimed that the photo was taken “moments” before she was hit.
http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=2199341 (broken picture link :(
The ISM, however, never claimed the photo was taken moments before, but did absolutely nothing to solve the confusion. The photo was labeled by them as “A clearly marked Rachel Corrie, holding a megaphone, confronts an Israeli bulldozer driver attempting to demolish a Palestinian home.” Notice that the caption never says that she was hit by this bulldozer, and even says “an Israeli bulldozer”, not “the Israeli bulldozer”.
The bulldozer she was hit by is clearly a different one, as this photo reveals:
http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=2199342 (other broken picture link)
Joe Smith, an ISM activist and a friend of Rachel Corrie, chose to reveal the truth, which is not stated on ISM’s website. “Smith said that no one was on the spot with a camera before Rachel Corrie was mauled by the bulldozer, and that the picture of Rachel with the megaphone had been taken many hours earlier.”

The Christian Science Monitor also claims that it is “moments before”.
The photo could not have been taken moments before she was hit, as a camera was not present at the scene until she was hit. The photo was taken hours, not moments before she was hit.

Normally on other issues I wouldn't have these links because I don't have photographic memory and I don't have a huge filing system full of these links, luckily that other site never deleted the 110+ pages that I participated in on the Palestinian/Isralite issue or I wouldn't have the links this time either.

For those who care
http://www.imesh.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=122067&highlight=rachel#122067 I am Sly69 there.

[Voltron]

No, the pacifist Rachel that was giving humanitarian aid at a Palestinean refugee camp. She was trying to save an innocent family's home. She was killed by an Israeli miltary man in a bulldozer, while wearing bright orange and using a bullhorn to communicate with the driver. After he ran her down, he backed up, then poured debris over her body. All American witnesses have no doubt that it was done with malicious intent.

There has been no evidence of weapons or a tunnel at the home that was demolished.

The U.S. has condemned Israel and asked for a full investigation, but more than a year later, nothing has changed.

My friend is still dead, though.

Lee Tom
I'm sorry for your loss of a friend.

I however still dispute Corrie being so innocent. And I dispute her trying to save a home if you look at articles above in that specific case it wasn't the home at risk. And there were tunnels under the shrubbery, I remember somewhere on that thread we had pictures of the tunnel under the shrub. Maybe it is in one of the broken links, I cannot be blamed for links that no longer existed afterall this is a very old story.

Do not click on this link if you do not wish to see her again.
http://jewishworldreview.com/0303/corrie.jpg
I purposely did not [img] it.

The day after Corrie's death, the Associated Press released a file photo they had taken of her in February at an anti-Israel rally (Above). Though she has been portrayed in the media as something close to a saint, the photo shows her tearing up a mock American flag to the cheers of her Palestinian cohorts. The look on her face as she tore the flag is familiar. It is not one of compassion or courage. It is a portrait of crazed hate. Hate for Israel and hate for her native America.

http://www.imesh.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=110382&highlight=international+solidarity+movement#110382

the proper link for the entire forum is http://www.imesh.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=5 the thread is near the bottom of page 1 right now palestinian/isreal conflict resolution. I post there as Sly69.

[Voltron]

Story about finding tunnels in Rafah, I don't think it happened the same day as Carries incident.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39439000/jpg/_39439232_soldiers203bodyap.jpg
A Palestinian teenager was shot dead by Israeli troops as the army ended its two-day raid on the Rafah refugee camp in its search for weapons-smuggling tunnels.
The 19-year-old died after he was hit by a bullet in the chest - bringing to eight the number of Palestinians killed during the Gaza Strip operation.

At least 40 Israeli tanks were seen withdrawing from the Rafah camp on Saturday evening and retreating to the border area with Egypt, which is under Israeli control.

But a military official told the AFP news agency that such operations would continue as long as smuggling activities remained.

Operation Root Canal was launched overnight on Thursday by dozens of Israeli troops backed by tanks and helicopter gunships.

Seven Palestinians - including two boys aged eight and 15 - were killed on the first day and more than 50 have been injured.

Up to 10 homes were demolished and water and electricity facilities were hit, said Palestinian sources.

Israel defended its actions saying it had intelligence that Palestinian militants were seeking to smuggle from Egypt shoulder-fired missiles that could be used against tanks, helicopters and fighter jets.

"If we are successful ... blowing up most of [the tunnels], hopefully all of them, for some time at least they won't be used or there won't be any sort of smuggling of that sort," Israeli Government spokesman Zalman Shoval told the BBC's World Today programme.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3183390.stm

This story actually condemns the Israelites and their actions in Rafah, I reference it because it shows they are right there really are smuggling tunnels there.

[Neserk]

Didn't I post a link somewhere about a young Israeli woman who goes to high-risk Palestianian areas to help protect homes, etc.??? I'm certain I did.

[LeeTom]

Voltron, the stories you are producing only say that tunnels are known to exist. And the house that Rachel was blocking was torn down the same time she was killed.

It's immensely easy to find fault with both sides, as they have both done horrible things. But this is the one link that I know very well. Rachel's heart bled for the people whose homes were wrongfully destroyed, and there were MANY of them. In this case, the Israeli military man murdered her wrongfully. I've sat through countless meetings about the situation, and am perhaps more in touch with what actually happened, and Rachel's intent, than anyone on this board, and most articles you will find on The Internet.

Lee Tom

[Neserk]

It's immensely easy to find fault with both sides, as they have both done horrible things.


I think this is important. It isn't always easy to tell the good guys from the bad guys like it used to be in the movies.

[Voltron]

Voltron, the stories you are producing only say that tunnels are known to exist. And the house that Rachel was blocking was torn down the same time she was killed.


Lee Tom
No it says the home wasn't torn down only the shrubbery in front of it was.

The first incident was the most serious, and the most reported in the press - the March 16th death of twenty-three year old Rachel Corrie, crushed beneath a bulldozer in Rafah when its operator failed to see her. Corrie was attempting to prevent the destruction of a Palestinian home, as the press widely reported. But most of the press (but not FrontPagemag.com) failed to report the presence of extensive tunnels underneath the homes of Rafah, used to deliver arms across the Egyptian border to the terrorist Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Houses involved in such smuggling are demolished as a matter of course. And when Corrie was killed, according to a Israeli Consulate media officer in San Francisco, the bulldozer was not even attempting to raze a home - just remove shrubbery used to hide a tunnel. Rachel Corrie died for nothing. An inquiry into her death found that she and other members of the International Solidarity Movement had engaged in "illegal, irresponsible, and dangerous" behavior. Indeed - by blocking the destruction of these houses, the International Solidarity Movement may have contributed to the arming of terrorists and the murder of innocent people.

For the link check the original post on page 2.

Also that picture link shows her in anger as she burns, I think it was her passport, in protest against the US. She belonged to a group called International Solidarity Movement which habitually put themselves in harms way. Then later they change their story's from what really happen to make Israel look at their worst. Not just the one about Carrie but about a multitude of others as well. I believe one other story about them was also in one of those links, but I've read many others.

This one story, about Carrie, was told by an ex member of Solidarity Movement because he did not like the dishonorable way they used her death for their cause. He was a full fledged member with her until her death. I believe his name is Smith, also posted in the links I provided.

[skunk]

For the link check the original post on page 2.
This is an article full of nothing but speculation. Move along there.

[Taft]

I don't keep every single news item I've ever read filed away with links leading to them. However, this particular topic I've been writing about for over a year and that forum where I wrote on this topic still exists so these links are at my fingertips.
One thing though I'm working these links backwards.

Please remember the group she belonged to International Solidarity Movement. I have additional information on them where their members have been in harms way multiple times while protecting terrorists.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13596

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7361

more to follow don't want to clutter.


I have to comment on this as it is disgusting.

From the multitude of NON frontpagemag articles on the internet, you would see that the Israeli's never found tunnels in our around the house. Further, Corrie didn't know the Israelis were planning on only clearing shrubbery from the front of the house. Weeks eearlier, they had actually crushed the wall of a house while members of her organization were inside.

Further still, frontpagemag is being completely tasteless in their claim that Corrie was "arming" terrorists by protecting Palestinian houses. They make huge assumptions which aren't based in fact.

Again, I stress that these are opinion pieces. And biased, deceitful pieces at that.

Taft

[LeeTom]

No it says the home wasn't torn down only the shrubbery in front of it was.


IT SAYS the home wasn't torn down, perhaps. But IT WAS!
Of course they were angry. The families they were staying with had their homes destroyed. If only all the Palestinians and Israelis would burn things to show their anger instead of kill each other, the world would be a better place.

Lee Tom

[zimv20]

sly, if you had to guess, what percentage of the palestinian population would you say

a) engages in terrorist activities
b) engages in or assists w/ terrorist activities
c) is sympathetic to terrorist activities?

[Voltron]

sly, if you had to guess, what percentage of the palestinian population would you say

a) engages in terrorist activities
b) engages in or assists w/ terrorist activities
c) is sympathetic to terrorist activities?
I wouldn't guess in A or B.
C, it wouldn't surprise me if it was more than half.

If they are truly against terrorism maybe it is time for them to engage in civil war or if they are in control of their government then police their own.