Poll: Should Apple support ADC or DVI in future Monitors?

[MacRumors]

Vote: Poll: Should Apple support ADC or DVI in future Monitors? (http://www.macpolls.com/?poll_id=420)

[Nermal]

I was intending to vote "yes". Since it seems that I must make a choice (how very un-Mac-like :eek: ;)), I choose DVI because it's a standard.

[nagromme]

DVI is better for PowerBookers :)

Just bundle things into one cable that branches at the end, and make it as tidy as possible. ADC was neat, but the downside is there too.

[Sun Baked]

DVI is better for PowerBookers :)

Just bundle things into one cable that branches at the end, and make it as tidy as possible. ADC was neat, but the downside is there too.DVI is better for PowerMac users.

Quicker card upgrades.

The simultaneous introduction of cards on the Mac/PC would be possible only if Apple drops ADC -- as long as they keep it the card makers cannot ever hope to introduce card much quicker than they do now.

It's much easier to drop cards into the Mac platform if the only thing that's need is a driver.

[azdude]

As a brand new (2 weeks) Powerbook owner, I emphatically selected DVI.

For you desktop guys, yes--- realize that graphics card upgrades will be easier... and who cares about an extra cable or two?

[SeaFox]

I vote for DVI.

The benefits of ADC aren't worth the incompatability.

[Bunzi2k4]

well since my powerbook doesn't support dvi or adc, it doesn't matter much! but i guess dvi may be a bit better...

[sworthy]

Just bundle things into one cable that branches at the end, and make it as tidy as possible.

This is the answer, end of discussion.

[macnews]

I agree DVI is the way to go. What I would care about seeing is being able to support my 22" and 23" ADC flat panel monitors in years to come. Perhaps I need to buy and ADC to DVI adapter?

[MoparShaha]

As history has it, when Apple sticks to its own proprietary solutions, it loses. As soon as Apple started adopting standards like USB, FireWire (I know Apple made FireWire), ect. it started to do well. For those of us who have been using Macs since System 6 days (or before), do you remember what a pain in the butt it was to get anything for Macintosh? We had our own printers, mice, keyboards, monitors, ect. Now I can go into CompUSA and buy almost any piece of hardware and be gauranteed it will work with my Mac. The key here is standards, and DVI is it -- not ADC.

[joed]

I think neither actually even though I chose DVI.

Apple needs to support HDMI instead which is backwards compatible with DVI.

[Nermal]

DVI is better for PowerMac users.

Quicker card upgrades.

The simultaneous introduction of cards on the Mac/PC would be possible only if Apple drops ADC -- as long as they keep it the card makers cannot ever hope to introduce card much quicker than they do now.

It's much easier to drop cards into the Mac platform if the only thing that's need is a driver.

In addition to adopting DVI, I also think that Apple should work on compatibility with "PC" video cards - so that you can just buy a generic card and use it, rather than wait for a "Mac edition" (and pay a premium for it).

[mattroberts]

Apple needs to support HDMI

I was under the impression the standard has yet to bet ratified. is this still the case?

[joed]

I was under the impression the standard has yet to bet ratified. is this still the case?

The specification has been approved and some product are coming out with it.

http://www.hdmi.org/

[ryanw]

The specification has been approved and some product are coming out with it.

http://www.hdmi.org/

Well, apple has been known to be early adopters. I would think that if Apple is dropping ADC they would be going with something like HDMI. That would actually feel like the right move for apple's new displays.

[JFreak]

who cares about an extra cable or two?

i do, and because of the single-cord-does-it-all approach i have so fell in love with the connector. of course, with powerbooks one needs the brick which itself kind of destroys the idea, but with powermacs there isn't a better thing than adc.

maybe apple would do wise to include both connectors - simple adc on one side of the back of the display and the combination of power/dvi/usb/whatever connectors on other side. or, even better, at the bottom of the display leaving the back beautifully empty.

maybe apple is readying to go one step further? i don't remember what's the maxx resolution that dvi can take, but it's not far away. apple needs to research future connection options and hopefully begin pushing a new standard forward. imagine a display having ten times the resolution we now have? there's no way current dvi can deliver. no way at all, and i think that the rumoured 30" display is already in trouble with the dvi bandwidth.

anyway, i hope apple displays continue to have only one cord. i surely do. that rocks.

[MacsRgr8]

As history has it, when Apple sticks to its own proprietary solutions, it loses. As soon as Apple started adopting standards like USB, FireWire (I know Apple made FireWire), ect. it started to do well. For those of us who have been using Macs since System 6 days (or before), do you remember what a pain in the butt it was to get anything for Macintosh? We had our own printers, mice, keyboards, monitors, ect. Now I can go into CompUSA and buy almost any piece of hardware and be gauranteed it will work with my Mac. The key here is standards, and DVI is it -- not ADC.

Exactly.
Apple is definitely moving towards an "all standard" concept. Even their own products (iPod) is compatible with the dark side.
Apple has left many of its own products (AppleTalk, ADB, etc.) allready, and leaving ADC out will be a pity (love the one cable idea) but a smart move.
ATi and nVidia will be the first to applaud this move, me thinks...

[Fitzcaraldo]

DVI is better for PowerBookers :)

Just bundle things into one cable that branches at the end, and make it as tidy as possible. ADC was neat, but the downside is there too.

Agreed, and extra port for the ADC extra functions would allow CRT users a 3rd party remote power botton.

[fixyourthinking]

well since my powerbook doesn't support dvi or adc, it doesn't matter much! but i guess dvi may be a bit better...

Actually it supports both, any connection can be adapted, EVEN if you don't have a monitor port, there are ways to use a monitor.

As a "do it because you can" experiment with a colleague - we hooked a 23" Cinema display up to a PowerBook 170 that didn't even have a monitor port or a way to add one.

He went this route:

Reeleyes SCSI to video adapter

VGA to DVI

DVI to ADC adapter

It only supported two colors and worked at 800x500 (blocking off a lot of the screen on each side) but it was useable.

I understand that this is impractical, but just about ANYTHING can be used on anything.

Same as USB peripherals can be used with ADB ports:

Use a StealthADB adapter (adapts PS2 to ADB) then use a PS2 to USB adapter then plug the USB peripheral into that. I have a customer that uses an Apple Pro keyboard with his PowerBook 1400 in this way.

[fixyourthinking]

maybe apple would do wise to include both connectors - simple adc on one side of the back of the display and the combination of power/dvi/usb/whatever connectors on other side. or, even better, at the bottom of the display leaving the back beautifully empty.



Actually you may have hit on something here. Remember that the older beige PowerMacs had a port BUILT ON TO THE BOARD (most with upgradeable VRAM slots), but you could easily put a PCI video card, a LC PDS video card, or a nubus video card to upgrade the video - and still use the onboard video separately.

This is what I think Apple should do - while I agree proprietary products do not help sales outside of Mac users, and Apple has done better by going with standards - the ADC concept, just as the HDI45 (which did something similar with sound, video, ADB), is a really nice concept. Anything that cuts down on clutter is a godsend to ad agencies where the majority of offices are like sardine cans.

[Bear]

DVI is better for PowerBookers :)

Just bundle things into one cable that branches at the end, and make it as tidy as possible. ADC was neat, but the downside is there too.This makes a lot of sense.

If Apple sets the new displays up properly, it could run eitehr with a power adapter plugged into the multi cable or you could use an adapter cable to go from ADC to the new monitor. This would be the best of the worlds. That way Powerbook users plug into the DVI and a USB port and add a power adapter. And Powermac users just have one cable to run and no extra power cord.

Of course on the display end there would be seperate connectors for DVI, USB and power. And possibly the option of running the power directly to the monitor instead of through a combo cable. This allows for more peoples needs.

[wordmunger]

Put both ADC and DVI outlets on the monitor. Then let users select the proper cable, or deliver monitors with both cables.

[michaelrjohnson]

I for one, really dont think that it's a life-or-death matter having an extra cable or two. I do however, feel that it is important for Apple to embrace standards in hardware. As previously stated, those of us who have been in around for awhile, remember all Apple-proprietary hardware and components... and it was a pain... a HUGE pain. All that's left (that's urgent) is the support for standard Video cards. Ah well, maybe sometime in the future.

[~Shard~]

DVI is the way to go for the future - ADC is nice in some repsects, but it's gotta go...

[shamino]

In addition to adopting DVI, I also think that Apple should work on compatibility with "PC" video cards - so that you can just buy a generic card and use it, rather than wait for a "Mac edition" (and pay a premium for it).
Easier said than done. How are you going to get a Mac to execute the x86 ROM code that PC cards have on them?

I suppose you could use a PC card as a secondary display, since that wouldn't have to be usable until after the OS boots - and device drivers can be loaded. But if you want the card to be usable during the boot sequence (necessary for OS installers), the Mac will need to be able to execute the card's ROM code.

Building Virtual PC into a Mac's boot ROM isn't an option here :)

[shamino]

ADC is nothing special. It's just DVI, USB and power wrapped into one cable. Either one (ADC or DVI) can be trivially converted to the other with little more than a cable (and a power brick when converting DVI to ADC).

IMO, DVI should be used because it means there's no longer a need for a proprietary AGP slot on the motherboard (to carry the USB and power to the ADC port).

Now, having all three in one cable is nice, and Nagromme's solution is a good idea. It will require a power-out connector on the back of the computer, but this shouldn't be a big deal. My Quadra has one, as have most PCs in the not-too-distant past.

[JFreak]

ADC is nothing special. It's just DVI, USB and power wrapped into one cable. Now, having all three in one cable is nice.

do you realize that you just proved yourself wrong? adc is special just because it has all three in one cable.

[Sabbath]

It seems the benefits of DVI are at the graphics card end and the benefits of ADC are at the screen end, so the obvious answer would be the multi ended single cable, maybe even with an end for power and the DVI to ADC brick essentially built in to the display.

[maxvamp]

One of the biggest hindrances to Apple is the perception that everything about a Mac is different.

I am sure that there is some geek at CompUSA somewhere right now, telling a customer that they cannot buy one of any monitors in the store to use with a Mac because it doesn't have that ADC connector, and Macs can only use Apple Monitors.

Since there is no **real** difference between ADC and DVI in performance, it would make a lot of sense for Apple to adopt the DVI spec, and offer a Belkin made all-in-one cable that offers that ADC feel.

As mentioned earlier, this would be one more roadblock that prevents the Mac community from having any video card they desired. Now, to get makers to write FAT-ROMS for the video cards. <grin>


Max.

[Sabbath]

It looks like we called the single splitting cable idea, well done us.

*Pats on the back allround*

And yet the lack of anything overly exciting in the keynote has lead to this post.

[jknight8907]

DVI. Way better for everything.

[amyhre]

I would say DVI. As much as I love the ADC for the cable clutter reduction, DVI is the way to go methinks. It also sounds like the cable is only going to split at the very end, so a very good implementation indeed. Apple supports open standards so everyone can communicate with everyone else using a neutral protocol. Microsoft is wanting to make everything standard too. Our standards or else!

[wdlove]

I voted DVI, Apple needs to continue moving into the future. Compatibility is very important.

[~Shard~]

I voted DVI, Apple needs to continue moving into the future. Compatibility is very important.

That's why I voted DVI as well - Apple needs to continue to be compatible and have their monitors available to PC users as well as Mac users. It's just like the iPod, iTunes, AirportExpress, etc. - the more compatibility Apple has with PC users, the more revenue for Apple, which is a good thing.

[PowerBook User]

Actually it supports both, any connection can be adapted, EVEN if you don't have a monitor port, there are ways to use a monitor.

As a "do it because you can" experiment with a colleague - we hooked a 23" Cinema display up to a PowerBook 170 that didn't even have a monitor port or a way to add one.

He went this route:

Reeleyes SCSI to video adapter

VGA to DVI

DVI to ADC adapter

It only supported two colors and worked at 800x500 (blocking off a lot of the screen on each side) but it was useable.

I understand that this is impractical, but just about ANYTHING can be used on anything.

Same as USB peripherals can be used with ADB ports:

Use a StealthADB adapter (adapts PS2 to ADB) then use a PS2 to USB adapter then plug the USB peripheral into that. I have a customer that uses an Apple Pro keyboard with his PowerBook 1400 in this way.

That's very cool. I can't believe you hooked up a 23" Cinema display to a PowerBook 170! Did the SCSI to video adapter have a VGA connector?

Anyway, I voted DVI. I think it's important for Apple to support standards. ADC was a good idea, but it was the only port I can think of on Macs that isn't on other computers.

[johnnyjibbs]

I voted DVI because I have a PowerBook. But it is better anyway for many of the reasons mentioned in the above posts.

However, I'm not sure about the cable - I don't see any point in the FireWire and USB on the display and I sure don't want to keep plugging them into the relevant ports on the side of my powerbook. I know they're optional - only DVI and power need to be plugged in - but can you just use a normal DVI cable and a separate one to the power block (i.e. 2 cable solution which actually turns out to be "less messy")?

[shamino]

do you realize that you just proved yourself wrong? adc is special just because it has all three in one cable.
Electrically, it's no different from taking three cables and bundling them together with electrical tape.

And although having one physical connector may be convenient, the disadvantages are much greater. You need adapters to attach it to non-ADC devices (including Apple's own PowerBooks). You need a custom AGP slot to carry these lines to the video card. Video cards need to be designed to propagate the USB and power lines from the AGP slot to the connector.

The solution Apple chose for their newer monitors (one bundled cable with four connectors) is much smarter. The convenience is almost identical and all the drawbacks go away.

[shamino]

However, I'm not sure about the cable - I don't see any point in the FireWire and USB on the display and I sure don't want to keep plugging them into the relevant ports on the side of my powerbook. I know they're optional - only DVI and power need to be plugged in
I think you may have to attach the USB cable as well. Aside from power and brightness, all of the display controls are in software. If you don't like the power-on defaults, you'll need a way to get the configuration commands from the Mac to the display. I would assume that they're doing this via USB and not a proprietary extension to the DVI spec.

It's my understanding that the FireWire connector is optional - only useful if you use the display's own FW ports.
but can you just use a normal DVI cable and a separate one to the power block (i.e. 2 cable solution which actually turns out to be "less messy")?
Dunno. We'll have to take a look when they start arriving in stores.

[shadowfax]

apple should have put ADC connectors in their laptops and just had them NOT work at all except when the laptop was plugged in. but being as they only use DVI, it's really REALLY sadistic to tell all your laptop users--a significant bit of your market--"biatch! on top of blowing 1200-3300 dollars on our monitors, you've gotta drop ANOTHER $150 for an adaptor just to use it with your laptop! suck on that!"

something always seemed rather asinine about that to me.

[Sonofhaig]

Can somebody explain the difference between the two to a novice like me?

[shamino]

apple should have put ADC connectors in their laptops and just had them NOT work at all except when the laptop was plugged in.
You can't seriously believe that this is better? So if I bring my laptop in to a conference room for a presentation, I can't just hook it up to a projector anymore - I also have to bring along the power brick and find an extra outlet as well?

[shamino]

Can somebody explain the difference between the two to a novice like me?
Simple.

DVI is a digital-video standard. A system for sending digital video to a monitor. It is the preferred way to connect an LCD monitor - since LCDs are by their nature digital devices, eliminating the analog signal-generation on the computer and eliminating the analog signal processing in the monitor makes for a cleaner design and usually also produces a better picture.

For backward compatibility, DVI connectors on video cards usually also include VGA-style analog video, allowing traditional CRT monitors to be used with a simple adapter cable.

ADC is Apple's latest attempt to eliminate cable-clutter by combining all of a monitor's signals into one cable. It combines DVI (analog and digital) video, USB (for controlling the monitor) and power into one cable. This makes it very convenient.

The downside over more traditional methods (separate cables for power and video) is that it is not a universal standard. To attach an ADC monitor to a non-ADC device, you need an adapter that includes a power supply (which can be expensive). To attach a non-ADC monitor to an ADC device, you also need an adapter, although these adapters can be fairly simple cables.

Another downside is that ADC video cards tend to cost more, because not many are made. An ADC video card must provide power and USB on the video connector - traditional VGA and DVI cards do not do this. And a standard AGP slot doesn't provide these signals either - meaning the card must either use a proprietary extended-AGP slot or have extra wires to get these lines from elsewhere.

It also creates problems for laptops - a laptop battery can't be expected to provide the power necessary for ADC. An ADC connector (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G5/PowerMacG5/3Input-Output/chapter_4_section_12.html) must be able to provide 3.6A at 25V, or 90W. Even plugged into the wall, a PowerBook wouldn't be able to drive this. A PowerBook's power brick only supplies 65W, and it needs most of that to power the computer and recharge the batteries.

You could increase the capacity of the power supply, but replacing the existing 65W supply with a 155W supply will substantially increase the cost. It may also require engineering changes in the PB itself to provide a 25V power line to the ADC port at the required current levels. (For reference, a 17" Apple Studio Display (http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Manuals/specs/displays/L14144B_EN.pdf) draws 40W. The newer displays (http://www.apple.com/displays/specs.html) draw even more (the 20" dispay draws 65W, the 23" dras 90W, and the 30" draws 150W, which is beyond the capacity of ADC itself.)

As a result of these issues, Apple is moving away from ADC and is returning to the traditional setup of multiple cables (but with them bundled together at the monitor end, for convenience.)

[shadowfax]

You can't seriously believe that this is better? So if I bring my laptop in to a conference room for a presentation, I can't just hook it up to a projector anymore - I also have to bring along the power brick and find an extra outlet as well?that's where s-video comes in. perhaps they could include an override for when you put the ADC to DVI adaptor on (which should be included. simple enough. the point is, DVI to ADC is $150, while ADC to DVI is $30 and should be included anyway. the former is utterly ridiculous.

[shamino]

that's where s-video comes in. perhaps they could include an override for when you put the ADC to DVI adaptor on (which should be included. simple enough. the point is, DVI to ADC is $150, while ADC to DVI is $30 and should be included anyway. the former is utterly ridiculous.
The price difference is because DVI-to-ADC needs to include a 90W power supply. These don't come free.

See my other post on the subject. To bundle ADC in a laptop would require upping the power supply from 65W to at least 155W. Plus new voltage regulators and high-current circuitry in the laptop to safely deliver that current to the ADC port. Which means consuming more space, generating more heat, and jacking up the price.

Would you really prefer to add $250 to the price of the laptop to avoid buying a $150 power supply for your monitor?

I know I wouldn't want to increase the price of my laptop so that other people can avoid buying power supplies for their monitors.

[peharri]

Easier said than done. How are you going to get a Mac to execute the x86 ROM code that PC cards have on them?

I suppose you could use a PC card as a secondary display, since that wouldn't have to be usable until after the OS boots - and device drivers can be loaded. But if you want the card to be usable during the boot sequence (necessary for OS installers), the Mac will need to be able to execute the card's ROM code.

I have an ATI Radeon PCI card in my Beige G3 at home which, despite being a Mac Edition, has the display not come on until a substantial part of OS X has loaded. (I checked and no video's coming out of the built-in video at this stage either.) This, according to ATI's website, is "by design" for Old World Macs.

I don't think that not coming up before the OS has started should be a major issue. For the odd occasion you need an OpenFirmware supported card, you can always plug one in (you got one with the Mac, right?), installing your prefered card afterwards. I doubt there's any real reason OS X needs the graphics card to have OpenFirmware boot code on it.

[Ninja_Turtle]

wow...30" thats alot!!! big time...haha they look super nice, thats almost as big as my living room tv (27")...haha i feel cheap now haha...3000 is alot of $$$ and the G5 is the only one with the good graphics card...so 6000+$$$ is alot of moneY!!!!! why cant apple make good computers at good prices? id buy an eMac but the video card suxors!!!!! :mad:

[Ninja_Turtle]

Can somebody explain the difference between the two to a novice like me?

its quiet simple, theres these things called monitors that you buy to view images that your computer projects...and the monitors that this forums is talking about are the new apple monitors which are alot of $$$...haha, i have no idea what a DVI or that other thing is...mostly mumbo jumbo to me...lets just party!

[shamino]

I have an ATI Radeon PCI card in my Beige G3 at home which, despite being a Mac Edition, has the display not come on until a substantial part of OS X has loaded. (I checked and no video's coming out of the built-in video at this stage either.) This, according to ATI's website, is "by design" for Old World Macs.

I don't think that not coming up before the OS has started should be a major issue. For the odd occasion you need an OpenFirmware supported card, you can always plug one in (you got one with the Mac, right?), installing your prefered card afterwards. I doubt there's any real reason OS X needs the graphics card to have OpenFirmware boot code on it.
This may be good enough for some users, but I think it would be disaster from a commercial stance.

First off, how could you boot the OS X install CD (which people have to do every time Apple ships a new release)? The custom driver wouldn't be on the CD. (I suppose Apple could start bundling third-party drivers, but the issue would still exist if you have a card too new to have drivers on the CD.)

Second, how many typical consumers would be willing (or able) to swap video cards for those situations when booting into OpenFirmware is necessary? I think I would want to chuck the entire computer out the window if I had to do this even once, and I'm someone who is perfectly capable of doing this.

Now, it's not necessarily as bad as this. As far as I know, all PC video cards are still register-level compatible with the original IBM VGA spec. Assuming the card's chips auto-reset on power-up without executing any x86 ROM code, Apple's ROM could establish 640x480 at 16 colors using code that would work on every card. So, as a fall-back situation, MacOS (and OpenFirmware) could use this. If the palette is configured for 16 levels of gray, OS X would be (barely) usable - enough to run the OS installer and get a vendor's video driver installed.

Whether the market would accept such a "solution", however, is questionable. If Apple supported this, you can guarantee that third-party video card vendors would immediately stop making Mac-specific cards, so this would quickly become the only solution for people who don't want to buy a card from Apple.

[mms]

DVI, since hopefully it will make it faster for them to update video cards for PowerMacs. A top-of-the-line video card would make the G5 comprable to even the best of PCs.

[sorryiwasdreami]

DVI, because adapters are not very desireable. It opens the non-mac computer brands/user market the ability to more easily use the beautiful, newly announced cinema displays.

Peace!
:)

[peharri]

This may be good enough for some users, but I think it would be disaster from a commercial stance.

First off, how could you boot the OS X install CD (which people have to do every time Apple ships a new release)? The custom driver wouldn't be on the CD. (I suppose Apple could start bundling third-party drivers, but the issue would still exist if you have a card too new to have drivers on the CD.)

You wouldn't necessarily expect such a situation to work but at the same time you wouldn't be installing an OS that doesn't support your current graphics card. The occasions in which it's going to be necessary to bite the bullet, remove the card you installed yourself, and re-install the card you took out are going to be relatively rare.

Look, I'm not for the life of me pretending that it's an ideal situation to put a non-OF card in a Mac. However, the issue here is whether OS X should be able to support such things, and I don't see why it shouldn't. A quick browse of various forums will tell you that for a significant number of ATI and nVidia cards, the only incompatability is the firmware - someone expert in such things, with access to a PC, and access to obscure firmware burning software and access to firmware images, can turn many such cards into cards OS X will play with. There are traders on eBay who make a fortune out of such operations, buying up $50 PC cards and selling them for a fraction of the outrageous "Mac Edition" prices.

OS X doesn't use OpenFirmware to control video. The only time any aspect of Darwin touches a video card via OF is when initialising (putting up the big dark gray apple logo) in BootX, otherwise it's "hitting the hardware directly". It doesn't need an OpenFirmware firmware image. Given this, there's no reason why OS X should care whether a given PCI card has OpenFirmware or not.


Second, how many typical consumers would be willing (or able) to swap video cards for those situations when booting into OpenFirmware is necessary? I think I would want to chuck the entire computer out the window if I had to do this even once, and I'm someone who is perfectly capable of doing this.

"Typical consumers" fall into two categories.

One group of "typical consumers" aren't going to swap video cards, period. That is to say, they're not going to go into Circuit City, buy any video card (whether it has "Mac Edition" on the box or not), go home, open their Mac, take out the existing card, and install the new one. These people you don't have to worry about, because they've not replaced the card with a non-OpenFirmware card so it doesn't matter.

The other group of "typical consumers" goes into Circuit City, gets a video card (one supported by OS X, be it OF or otherwise), installs it, and then later on finds that it will not work with OS 9. They're clued up enough to know how to swap cards, they've already done it. Again, you don't have a problem.

Your comment kind of implies you think I'm either proposing abolishing OpenFirmware compatability, which I most certainly am not, or that Apple should install non-OF cards in Macs. Neither are the case. No consumer will ever need to remove a card they didn't put in their machines to begin with.


Whether the market would accept such a "solution", however, is questionable. If Apple supported this, you can guarantee that third-party video card vendors would immediately stop making Mac-specific cards, so this would quickly become the only solution for people who don't want to buy a card from Apple.
I'm not sure this would be such a bad thing. Apple, of course, would continue to make Mac-specific cards with full OpenFirmware compatability (what else is it going to put in its own products?) In the mean time, the rest of us wouldn't have to hunt down ridiculously expensive and often obscure "Mac Edition" cards that are, in practice, identical to their PC brethren (or with token differences that funnily enough aren't enough to break compatability when their PROMs are reflashed) but with a $100 premium for the privilege of having something your OS will look at.

[shamino]

... In the mean time, the rest of us wouldn't have to hunt down ridiculously expensive and often obscure "Mac Edition" cards that are, in practice, identical to their PC brethren (or with token differences that funnily enough aren't enough to break compatability when their PROMs are reflashed) but with a $100 premium for the privilege of having something your OS will look at.
It is very likely that this may happen anyway, now that Apple is no longer making ADC cards. "Mac Edition" cards will no longer have to have ADC support - which means they can use standard AGP and DVI interfaces. This means the sole difference between a Mac card and a PC card will be the ROM code - making the manufacturing costs identical.

[morkintosh]

DVI is better for PowerBookers :)

Just bundle things into one cable that branches at the end, and make it as tidy as possible. ADC was neat, but the downside is there too.

ding ding ding, we have a winner

[applelifestyle]

I DID NOT voted because there wasn´t an option on the Poll that says that Apple should support both technologies.

What will happen to all of us that already have some of these ADC displays in our desks. We will probably have to sell them or only use them on the old G4 Macs if the new video cards are offered only with DVI. And getting an extra adapter for the ADC Display is stupid. Why buying a power supply for a display that does not need one? Its retrograde! Not mentioning it cost more than a hundred bucks!

Apple should continue the development of ADC since it is far superior than the DVI Interface and should offer the DVI support because it is the "PC Standard". That way everybody will be happy.

The new displays drag too much power so they need an external power supply. Ok. We can accept it but in the near future, Apple may find a way to reduce the energy consumption and improve the line and we can have our beloved ADC back.

Apple is Apple. We don't care what the standards are, we make them. Take USB, FireWire, Bluetooth, Quicktime or Airport as a few examples. Some of them were developed by Apple, others in cooperation with other companies.

USB was Intel's technology but it was Apple who made it a standard. Bluetooth was in diapers when Apple took it and look what Bluetooth is today.

I think that Apple SHOULDN'T leave ADC technology behind. After all, is a DVI-like Interface that drags the display's energy from the CPU power supply so it is no big deal in terms of engineering but it is a big deal in terms of convenience.

[Xapplimatic]

What about 1394b? Remember Apple and (Panasonic?) jointly announcing direct 1394b interfaces for high def? Why are we piddling with DVI? Already it's overextended having to go to two DVI connectors for one screen.. how rediculous... I think it's time for Apple to pull its own standard out of the hat.. 1394b FireWire displays... After all, the new high def cable boxes all feature 1394b.. what are they waiting for?

[shamino]

Already it's overextended having to go to two DVI connectors for one screen.
It's not two DVI connectors, it's a single dual-link DVI connector.

The DVI spec (http://www.ddwg.org/dvi.html) allows a DVI connector to have one or two links. Single-link DVI uses 12 pins and has a 165MHz bandwidth limit. Dual-link uses all 24 pins and has two 165MHz channels.

[mattroberts]

It's not two DVI connectors, it's a single dual-link DVI connector.


your right :) though if you look on the website the nvidia card actually has two DVI connectors. thats where i think peoples confusion comes from. if people read the promo's for them they would realize the Nvidia card can drive TWO 30in displays hence two dvi connectors.

http://www.apple.com/displays/digital.html

I think though that the dual-DVI interface will be a short-term fix to a long-term bandwidth problem. as earlier stated HDMI (http://www.hdmi.org/) is a very promising alternative with 5 gb of bandwidth and the same interface as DVI (backwards compatible).

applelifestyle - since when was ADC 'beloved' ? your analogies to bluetooth and USB - all bely the fact that they were each standards BEFORE apple was involved. Apple adopted standard and became an amazing -integrator- which is easier for them to do as they control the operating system. Apple Does not and never will 'make the standards.'

And before i get hit with numerous 'but what about firewire?' posts let recap how LONG it took apple to get that going - they developed FW in 1989! it took until 1995 to get a consortium going and it only went anywhere when SONY joined up calling FW 'i.link.' ADC is obviously not catching on outside apple land.

Apple is best at taking all the standards that come along and 'integrating' them better than anyone else. thats what they do and better than anyone else i might add.

cheers
m

[shamino]

your right :) though if you look on the website the nvidia card actually has two DVI connectors. thats where i think peoples confusion comes from. if people read the promo's for them they would realize the Nvidia card can drive TWO 30in displays hence two dvi connectors.
A lot of the confusion is that during the WWDC keynote, Steve said two connectors. What he really meant became obvious when he showed a 2-connector card driving two displays, but not everyone looked that closely. It's far more clear on the Apple web site, as you pointed out.
I think though that the dual-DVI interface will be a short-term fix to a long-term bandwidth problem. as earlier stated HDMI (http://www.hdmi.org/) is a very promising alternative with 5 gb of bandwidth and the same interface as DVI (backwards compatible).
We'll see. Last week, I did a quick back-of-the envelope calculation WRT how far dual-link DVI can be pushed. With two 165MHz channels, assuming a 60Hz refresh rate, I figure this will max out at about 5.5 million pixels. Assuming Apple-standard 1:1.6 widescreen aspect ratio, the highest resolution that fits with integer values for both dimensions is 2960x1850 (5,476,000 pixels). At Apple-standard 100dpi, this is a 34.9" display.

So, they should be able to stick with DVI until they either want to make a display bigger than 35" or make a display with more than 100dpi.

After that, you're either looking at two DVI connectors or something new. HDMI may be that something. Or maybe something else will come along by then. Or we may find that there isn't enough of a market to warrant making displays at such high resolutions. I won't try to predict the future here.
bluetooth and USB - all bely the fact that they were each standards BEFORE apple was involved. Apple adopted standard and became an amazing -integrator- which is easier for them to do as they control the operating system. Apple Does not and never will 'make the standards.'
It's also worth noting that even as an integrator, they don't always succeed.

The Mac was the first to integrate SCSI into consumer devices. Apple pushed it for a long time. But aside from expensive workstations (like those from Sun) and a few specific high-end PC's (like some from Compaq), it didn't progress much further. The PC market (pretty much required to become a universal standard) chose to forgo SCSI and instead went with the technically-inferior but much cheaper IDE standard (which made the pricing wedge even greater.) Apple ended up being forced to abandon SCSI for IDE in order to compete - first by bundling IDE hard drives, then by removing SCSI from the motherboard. Today, Apple doesn't even offer SCSI as a build-to-order option.

[ebow]

Should MacPolls post a new poll?
( ) Yes, the current one is moot, as the decision is Apple's, and it was decided weeks ago. :eek:
( ) Yes, the current one has been posted for too long. :rolleyes:
( ) No, it's essential that armchair technologists reiterate the same speculative points over and over. :D
( ) No, Apple hasn't given us enough controversial fodder lately (what iMac delay?). :(
( ) Don't know / don't care /can't read :confused:

[.a]

Should MacPolls post a new poll?
( ) Yes, the current one is moot, as the decision is Apple's, and it was decided weeks ago. :eek:
( ) Yes, the current one has been posted for too long. :rolleyes:
( ) No, it's essential that armchair technologists reiterate the same speculative points over and over. :D
( ) No, Apple hasn't given us enough controversial fodder lately (what iMac delay?). :(
( ) Don't know / don't care /can't read :confused:

well, they should just change from "Brand new poll every weekday..." to "Brand new poll every weekday... with the usual apple delay!"
.a

[Stella]

well, they should just change from "Brand new poll every weekday..." to "Brand new poll every weekday... with the usual apple delay!"
.a

Isn't time for a new poll?

How about -
Will Tiger Suck?
When will apple release affordable hardware?

:-)

[~Shard~]

Isn't time for a new poll?

How about -
Will Tiger Suck?
When will apple release affordable hardware?

:-)

But we already know the definitive answers to those polls - No, Tiger will not suck, it looks very impressive from the WWDC demo, and as for "When will apple release affordable hardware?", this isn't even a valid question since Apple does release affordable hardware. I found my current iMac, all my previous Macs and my iPod all to be very affordable. :p :cool:

[Stella]

:rolleyes:





But we already know the definitive answers to those polls - No, Tiger will not suck, it looks very impressive from the WWDC demo, and as for "When will apple release affordable hardware?", this isn't even a valid question since Apple does release affordable hardware. I found my current iMac, all my previous Macs and my iPod all to be very affordable. :p :cool:

[~Shard~]

:rolleyes:

Thanks for your insightful, well-thought out reply - it added a lot of value to the discussion! :p ;)

[~Shard~]

Gotta love it when polls have been around so long that you can vote twice on them! ;)

Here's an idea for a new poll:

Poll Question: Why?

Poll Answer #1: Because
Poll Answer #2: Why Not?

Hmm, maybe if there isn't a new poll in the near future we should just start asking new poll questions right in this thread, hijack the thread and start posting new votes and replies to new poll questions right here! ;) :cool:

[hansen]

Hmm, maybe if there isn't a new poll in the near future we should just start asking new poll questions right in this thread, hijack the thread and start posting new votes and replies to new poll questions right here! ;) :cool:

Todays Poll:

Should we have a new poll soon?
:) YES, it's about time
:( NO, The question regarding ADC or DVI reflect a deep true meaning of life and needs to be considered just a little longer
:confused: I DON'T KNOW, simply

[Stella]

Thanks.

You are VERY welcome

:D
Thanks for your insightful, well-thought out reply - it added a lot of value to the discussion! :p ;) :D

[~Shard~]

Thanks.

You are VERY welcome

:D
:D

Anytime! Gotta respect the Goddess of Beer... :cool:

[relimw]

Todays Poll:

Should we have a new poll soon?
:) YES, it's about time
:( NO, The question regarding ADC or DVI reflect a deep true meaning of life and needs to be considered just a little longer
:confused: I DON'T KNOW, simply

Well, I vote a resounding yes! :)

What's the deal with the poll creator(s) they go on vacation or something? :(

[~Shard~]

Todays Poll:

Should we have a new poll soon?
:) YES, it's about time
:( NO, The question regarding ADC or DVI reflect a deep true meaning of life and needs to be considered just a little longer
:confused: I DON'T KNOW, simply

I'll vote :( since it would actually be fun to keep this thread going with new polls as long as possible! ;) :cool:

[hansen]

It's now half way thorugh my 3 weeks vacation and it is STILL raining here in Denmark.

What is your favorite spot for vacation?

My vote: Barcelona, Spain

[macFanDave]

What's the matter?! There used to be a new poll every single weekday and suddenly they've slowed to a crawl -- hardly twice a month.

If you can't come up with a reasonable number of polls, maybe you'd better just hang it up like macosrumors.com evidently has.

Considering the announcements regarding Tiger, Airport Express and the iTunes contest, there could have been many polls? Here's what I thought of just off the top of my head:

1) Do you plan on using Automator and what is your previous AppleScript experience?
a) Will use Automator and I am proficient with AppleScript
b) Will use Automator and I can do basic AppleScript
c) Will use Automator and I fear AppleScript
d) Won't use Automator, because I'll keep doing it in AppleScript
e) Won't use Automator and I fear AppleScript
f) What's Automator?
g) What's AppleScript?
h) Huh?

2) If you are getting an Airport Express what do you want to use it for?
a) Streaming iTunes to a home stereo.
b) Extending a home Airport network
c) Using it as a wireless print server
d) Extending/creating a wireless network on the road.
e) To be able to brag to friends and score chicks (or dudes).
f) Not getting one.

3) Did you spend more or less than you planned on the iTunes contest?
a) Just right
b) Nothing (nothing ventured, nothing gained).
c) Too little
d) Somewhat too much
e) Way too much (can some of you loan me a few bucks?)
f) My name is Kevin and I came out WAY ahead!

This is easy. Maybe I should just take over.

[ebow]

What's the matter?! There used to be a new poll every single weekday and suddenly they've slowed to a crawl -- hardly twice a month.

<snip>

This is easy. Maybe I should just take over.

Good ideas. I just noticed this text on the right side of the MacPolls voting page:
"submit your poll ideas to ideas@macpolls.com. be as detailed as possible."

So... you could send in all three, and maybe they'd queue them up.

[~Shard~]

Good ideas. I just noticed this text on the right side of the MacPolls voting page:
"submit your poll ideas to ideas@macpolls.com. be as detailed as possible."

So... you could send in all three, and maybe they'd queue them up.

Nah, it’s more fun just to carry out our own polls within this thread... ;) :cool:

[jimjiminyjim]

The lack of polls is not a matter of needing poll ideas. I've sent in at least 3, and none of them have showed up. Sure they might not have been the perfect polls, but come on, anything is better than ADC or DVI for days on end in the top section of the site!!

I started a thread on this topic under "site comments" but apparently this is not an issue for many people (or no one is interested in scrolling to the bottom of macrumors to see what is going on down there).

[relimw]

I started a thread on this topic under "site comments" but apparently this is not an issue for many people (or no one is interested in scrolling to the bottom of macrumors to see what is going on down there).

Ah, now see, I never bothered to scroll all the way down, so I never saw the site comments section....oops.....

Course, running our own polls in this thread is better that the current poll anyway, at least we change the questions from time to time ;)

Are you going to buy a rev.A 2.5GHz liquid cooled G5?
a) Already bought it!
b) Thinking about it
c) Heck no! Steve said dual 3GHz and dang it I'm holding out for it!
d) Does it have a dipstick to check the liquid level?

[~Shard~]

Are you going to buy a rev.A 2.5GHz liquid cooled G5?
a) Already bought it!
b) Thinking about it
c) Heck no! Steve said dual 3GHz and dang it I'm holding out for it!
d) Does it have a dipstick to check the liquid level?

e) none of the above - I'll just wait for a G6 since i bought a new Mac in December... :cool:

[~Shard~]

Just thought I'd check back and see if the poll had been updated yet. Nope. So I voted again - for the 4th time. ;)

[GrannySmith_G5]

This poll gets better every time I look at it. I could never get tired of discussing the differences between adc and dvi. Keep up the hard work guys. If you need any help finalizing the upcoming Autumn poll topic, just ask!

[jimjiminyjim]

Ah, now see, I never bothered to scroll all the way down, so I never saw the site comments section....oops.....

Course, running our own polls in this thread is better that the current poll anyway, at least we change the questions from time to time ;)

Are you going to buy a rev.A 2.5GHz liquid cooled G5?
a) Already bought it!
b) Thinking about it
c) Heck no! Steve said dual 3GHz and dang it I'm holding out for it!
d) Does it have a dipstick to check the liquid level?

c: Heck no! Steve said dual 3GHz and dang it I'm holding out for 4GHz.

Why you ask... well. I had an iMac 233... upgraded to eMac 1Ghz. That's a 4X speed boost. So for my next upgrade, I'll need a 4Ghz Mac.

[~Shard~]

c: Heck no! Steve said dual 3GHz and dang it I'm holding out for 4GHz.

Why you ask... well. I had an iMac 233... upgraded to eMac 1Ghz. That's a 4X speed boost. So for my next upgrade, I'll need a 4Ghz Mac.

You realize by using that rationale you'll be waiting longer and longer for a new computer each time, right? ;)

[relimw]

You realize by using that rationale you'll be waiting longer and longer for a new computer each time, right? ;)

Course, I do about the same thing. First an 8600, then a dual 500 G4. A Dual 3GHz is my next machine. Hmm, wonder if Steve will release it for Christmas.... ;)

[jimjiminyjim]

You realize by using that rationale you'll be waiting longer and longer for a new computer each time, right? ;)

Well, at my income, it won't be a bad thing. :)
Besides, if the pressure gets too high, I can change stragey - if the wife will allow it... ;)

[Ninja_Turtle]

whats with polls not being updated??? arent DAILY polls suppose to be daily???? this poll has been up forever...CHANGE IT already! if you have no ideas, make up a crazy one...i love polls!!! :p :D

[wdlove]

Ah, now see, I never bothered to scroll all the way down, so I never saw the site comments section....oops.....

Course, running our own polls in this thread is better that the current poll anyway, at least we change the questions from time to time ;)

Are you going to buy a rev.A 2.5GHz liquid cooled G5?
a) Already bought it!
b) Thinking about it
c) Heck no! Steve said dual 3GHz and dang it I'm holding out for it!
d) Does it have a dipstick to check the liquid level?

b) I'm very seriously thinking purchasing.

Thank you for the nice new poll. ;)

[~Shard~]

Alright time for a new poll question! :cool:

Are you going to be buying a new iPod when they are released/announced this week?

A) Yes, 20 GB model
B) Yes, 40 GB model
C) Yes, 60 GB model
D) No, I just bought an iPod
E) No, I'm an iPod mini kinda person
F) No iPod-related purchasing/owning plans whatsoever

Let's start counting the votes! :cool:

[relimw]

Course, running our own polls in this thread is better that the current poll anyway, at least we change the questions from time to time ;)

Are you going to buy a rev.A 2.5GHz liquid cooled G5?
a) Already bought it!
b) Thinking about it
c) Heck no! Steve said dual 3GHz and dang it I'm holding out for it!
d) Does it have a dipstick to check the liquid level?

Hmm, seems I forgot to vote in my own poll, d'oh!

I vote c & b. All the new games (like BF1942) are requiring >867MHz machines to run, and my wife doesn't like me stealing her PB to play them on ;)