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MacRumors
Jun 28, 2004, 02:00 PM
Today Apple introduced many new features that will be arriving in Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) in the first half of 2005. The multiple screenshots leaked (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/06/20040626041303.shtml) on Friday turned out to be true... proving (again) that most individuals can not conclusively determine fakes vs real screenshots

Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) (http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/) is said to include over 150 new features. The most exciting include:

Spotlight

Find anything, anywhere on your computer in no time flat. More... (http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/spotlight.html)

iChat AV

Video-conference with 3 other people. Audio conference with 10 other people. More... (http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/ichat.html)

Safari RSS

Browse RSS feeds and search through them in Safari

Dashboard

Open fast access widgets with a press of a button. More... (http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html)

Automator

Automate manual, repetetive tasks with point and click simplicity. More... (http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/automator.html)

More information is available on Apple's site (http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/).

Kingsnapped
Jun 28, 2004, 02:09 PM
I actually fell asleep during the keynote... after all that time I spent up last night talking about it here.

/shame

nsb3000
Jun 28, 2004, 02:10 PM
Tiger looks cool. I was especially impressed with the Automater feature. The search thing looks good as well. I want to see how the Meta data system is implemented..if done right, this could be a break through.

I am disappointed about the lack of new Hardware announcements, but 10.4 looks really cool.
:D :D :D

nmk
Jun 28, 2004, 02:10 PM
Tiger seems like a decent update. The search function is impressive. Sure there will be a lot of people complaining about why they didn't get their G5 iMac.

xtekdiver
Jun 28, 2004, 02:10 PM
Well, now we know. What a let down. Monitors are awesome, but no 17" cinema is a big mistake and a real disappointment. For a mere 7K you can have it all, but I only have $700 :(

So, what's so special about Tiger? Some minor improvements but nothing earth shattering or groundbreaking. Still better than Windows, but I guess I was expecting something much more exciting than this.

On the brighter side however, Tiger will have to ship with the new G5 Powerbook next year. Time to save my pennies.

Ajmbc
Jun 28, 2004, 02:11 PM
Tiger looks really cool.

I like its new features, definitely not as much as we were hoping for, but still pretty cool.

ajmbc

oldmanwinter
Jun 28, 2004, 02:11 PM
Tiger looks nice, and they have plenty of time to tweak it... but the konfabulator stuff is a low blow

nsb3000
Jun 28, 2004, 02:12 PM
I think Automater or Pipeline looks like the coolest new feature..very Apple like, very cool, very usefull.

Freg3000
Jun 28, 2004, 02:12 PM
I hate the aqua blue apple menu. What is up with that?

All in all, it was ok. Not many big surprises, and I don't see many "normal people" features in Tiger....but I like spotlight a lot.

5 out of 10. :cool:

PieMac
Jun 28, 2004, 02:12 PM
Any mention of price reduction for the older 20" and 23" displays? I notice the only older model on Apple's website is the 17".

Darwin
Jun 28, 2004, 02:12 PM
Of course Tiger is not finished yet so im sure there are other features to be done

Looking at the Info on Apple.com it doesn't look as bad then it was when we were looking at the leaked pictures

FatSweatyChimp
Jun 28, 2004, 02:12 PM
Underwhelming.

Might give this one a miss.

BornAgainMac
Jun 28, 2004, 02:13 PM
What!!! No more "And one more thing...". Was Steve wearing a tie today? This is weird.

nsb3000
Jun 28, 2004, 02:13 PM
Tiger looks nice, and they have plenty of time to tweak it... but the konfabulator stuff is a low blow

This is true. I help out hopes that Apple would take the high road on this issue, but it does not look that way...

Awimoway
Jun 28, 2004, 02:13 PM
What a bunch of sour apples. :p

Tiger is a much more exciting update than Panther.

Spotlight: Metadata in Finder and more. What could be better?

Automater: The possibilities are endless. If this is implemented correctly, it will be a very powerful feature.

Dashboard: A cleaner version of Konfab with Apple's design touches.

Safari RSS: Finally, an easy, straightforward, Mac-esque way to do RSS!

iChat AV: The hi-res video rocks.

NO PINSTRIPES :)

This is a very solid update to the OS. Far more impressive than the one-hit wonder that was Panther: "oh boy, I can make my windows fly off the screen... uh, is that all there is?"

BornAgainMac
Jun 28, 2004, 02:16 PM
Safari should have been updated today but then that would steal a feature from Tiger. I wanted something free to download today from Apple.

DGFan
Jun 28, 2004, 02:17 PM
I haven't seen the keynote, just read the notes. But so far there isn't anything spectacular that makes me want to run out and buy it immediately (like Expose). On the other hand, most of the Panther improvements weren't flashy either (like improvements to Mail). I guess I'll have to wait for reviews.

bertagert
Jun 28, 2004, 02:19 PM
First off, I lot of us are eating crow right now because we thought the pics were fake. On behalf of the 60%+ that voted fake, our bad.

Next, displays. 30" is sweet! Majorly expensive when you put two cards and a screen and a powermac together. Ouch! Wonder how many will get this setup?

Screens look super nice and the tilt is a much needed feature. The only thing I wounder is how easy, or not so easy, it will be to plug stuff into the back of the screen?

Tiger:
Major rip on kofabulator. Wonder what will come out of this or if they just bought it from developers? If not, big no no in my book.

I really hope there are some "real" features that come out of Tiger. Nothing I see right now is worth $129 (if that's the price of upgrading).

All in all, nothing too exciting.

Stella
Jun 28, 2004, 02:21 PM
Tiger doesn't look that exciting..

Those widgets on the dashboard are gross.. out of character of Apple. Hopefully they will improve them..

Automator looks good.

XCode 2 seems OK with Java code completion, but they really need to add Refactoring functionality. Refactoring would allow me to move from IntelliJ (which I do think is a great app).

But, over all, there isn't that knockout feature - not like Panther or Jag.

iChat -> no better compatibility for other IMs... Great you have can a video conference with 3 people.. but do you know 3 people with iChat + video cameras?!!

soosy
Jun 28, 2004, 02:21 PM
Tiger is about a year away. *goes into the corner and cries*

I was loving the almost yearly updates... guess they are really ripping it apart this time.

Oh and I'm sure there'll be even more features/eyecandy announced at MWSF.

aswitcher
Jun 28, 2004, 02:24 PM
Tiger looks great and I am happy its not out right now but it could be a year coming...

AV Chat - excellent. All they need to do now is incorporate encryption and they will have an excellent business tool.

Widgets look great. Glad Apple did this.

Would have liked some more hardware...

jboyzh
Jun 28, 2004, 02:27 PM
Introducing Konfabulator.

What a wonderful day...

pkscout
Jun 28, 2004, 02:27 PM
I'm always amazed at the things people *don't* talk about, so I'm going to mention a couple. On the very last page of the feature overview, there is a section mentioning that I can control file and directory access by ACLs (Access Control Lists). This is HUGE for those of us administering OSX Servers, as we won't be restricted to having a single user have a set of rights, then one group, then everyone. If you've tried to setup directory permissions, you know how restrictive that is.

The other one is the voice navigation. That one looks interesting, especially if I don't have to wear a special mic to get it to work right. I have a laptop running iTunes connected directly to my stereo. I have one of those Keyspan IR remotes, but it is very limiting. If I could control the whole machine with voice, that would be cool. Now if I can find an IR remote program for the Mac that *outputs* IR commands, I could control my whole system via voice. Very cool.

Hal, please play 2001 Space Odessey. Hal, can you hear me? :D

macridah
Jun 28, 2004, 02:29 PM
I do think the tiger preview has a lot of new features that will be used in everyday usage. One of the big things in the panter upgrade was expose, but I don't really use it. In tiger, I'll probably use the search feature a lot, the automater and the dashboard (i know, konfabulator rip-off, but it's free).

The only thing I don't like is that it will be available in the first half of 2005. Who knows when that'll be (jan-jun). At least panther was available in Oct of the same year.

From some reason I expected more announcements (hardware, ipod), but when look at the preview page on the apple site, I realize that it's way cool and it's a definite must upgrade.

steadyeddie
Jun 28, 2004, 02:30 PM
Core Image looks great to me. Could give a great speed boost to Photoshop, and looks like it might make it much easier to develop powerful third-party imaging apps.

anonymous161
Jun 28, 2004, 02:30 PM
This isn't going to be for 64 bit Macs only is it? I don't see any mention of a 32 bit version anywhere. Surely Apple wouldn't be trying to force everyone to G5s when only one of their product lines currently has the chips.

MacFan26
Jun 28, 2004, 02:31 PM
Safari should have been updated today but then that would steal a feature from Tiger. I wanted something free to download today from Apple.

I'm with you on that. I guess the new Safari is only available with Tiger? Since they've been trying to get more and more people to use Safari, it doesn't seem like the best thing to do would be to only offer it with the OS update. It seems like more and more apps are going to become unavailable for downloads. Except iTunes of course.

At the store website, it says the moniters can also be used with PC's, was this one of the features they mentioned? Who would have a windows box with an Apple moniter? Maybe I'm being stupid, it just seemed weird.

arn
Jun 28, 2004, 02:32 PM
This will just go into my list of things that people thought were fake but were real.

Goes to show that a) "Apple wouldn't make something like that" and b) "I can make a screen like this myself" are NOT reasons that something is fake.

arn

crazedbytheheat
Jun 28, 2004, 02:33 PM
I've been waiting FOREVER for an OS maker to put something like spotlight and the finder smart folders in the system. This alone, IMO, is enough to warrent the upgrade. Did anyone else notice that it searches movie and image files content (presumably metadata in there) when finding results.

Automater looks cool, too. I hate writing Applescript.

Oh, yeah, as a .mac user, the tighter integration is also very welcome.

I wanna see more info on the new Unix stuff, though. The Apple sneak peak wasn't very detailed. In particular it looks like it may finally be easy to manage startup items instead of writing the scripts by hand. (Call me lazy, but I don't like writing repetive scripts).

Zaty
Jun 28, 2004, 02:33 PM
So Apple seems to take their time for the next release of OS X and I think their should and create an OS that will kick ass when it's released in a about a year from now. The preview looks great.

MacFan26
Jun 28, 2004, 02:36 PM
I hate the aqua blue apple menu. What is up with that?


:eek: :eek: I saw that too, it looked rather XP like to me, I hope it doesn't really look as bad as I think it looks.

DGFan
Jun 28, 2004, 02:38 PM
NO PINSTRIPES :)


Not sure what you're talking about. I still see pinstripes in the screens in the Tiger pages at apple.com

Thirteenva
Jun 28, 2004, 02:44 PM
Looks like apple is stepping on the toes of its independent developers again...

Spotlight seems suspiciously similar to launchbar...

Dashboard is a lot like konfabulator...


I still remember the drama surrounding sherlock and watson during the jaguar release...

What is apple thinking? I can't seem to understand the logic behind what they're doing.

jchapman
Jun 28, 2004, 02:44 PM
I just saw the Tiger presentation on apple.com, and the blue background behind the Apple menu and the Spotlight menu is horrible. It breaks fundamental interface standards.
Every menu in every application has a white background that changes to blue when selected. Not anymore! Now scrubbing between menus now changes the selection indicator depending on the menu title? That doesn't make any sense. Why highlight the Apple menu when it is now only used for rare events (system preferences and shutdown/restart/logout)? The ONLY reason I see for this is to make the Apple menu look visually more similar to the Windows Start menu. Except that they do completely different things and have completely different levels of importance with regards to user interaction!
Here's hoping Apple comes to its sense before shipping, but "style over usability" seems to be the rule these days in cupertino.
PS> Boo to ripping off Konfabulator! I still remember when Apple bought the shareware code instead of stealing the idea (Windowshade, SoundJam).

blueice02
Jun 28, 2004, 02:45 PM
...what kind of performance boost Tiger will provide. I'm assuming that more and more of the OS (windowserver to be exact) will be moved into the graphics chip instead of being processed in the cpu. Overall though, Tiger looks like a well refined piece of software.

About the widgets, I agree that many of them look awful, and I doubt I would use this feature much. Keep in mind that Apple did the same thing to Watson with Sherlock. The thing is, I like Watson 10x better than Sherlock, in fact, I don't even use Sherlock. Now if only Apple would try to copy ShapeShifter...
:rolleyes:

vollspacken
Jun 28, 2004, 02:47 PM
Core Image/Video seems interesting... :) I wonder if it will speed up iMovie, FC Express/Pro, and VJ apps?

----------------------------------------------

I really like the concept of Automater, that's something a code-illitarate like me has waited for.

I'm not sure 'bout the widgets-schmidgets... the iTunes remote and the orange calculator look gross, the address-widget is even worse... I hope they tone 'em down.

still no usable VPN-options, still no multi-client iChat... :(

I don't care about the displays, but Tiger might end up pretty cool, given the time for improvents and fix-ups till it's release next year.

now all I need is footnotes and endnotes in TextEdit... ;)

vSpacken

noel4r
Jun 28, 2004, 02:49 PM
If I had to grade the announcements today,

Tiger Preview = B
New Displays = C
No G5 iMac = F

soosy
Jun 28, 2004, 02:49 PM
A little Sun Looking Glass-ish with the controls on the back...

from http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html

"Elegantly designed Dashboard accessories animate in cool and interesting ways using the new Core Image technology built into Tiger. To change the color or font for a sticky note, flip the note around — all Widgets controls are on the back to keep them out of sight until you need them."

MacFan26
Jun 28, 2004, 02:50 PM
Anyone seen the Konfabulator site today?? It says, "Cupertino, start your photocopiers! Why wait 'till "first half of 2005" when you can get the original Dashboard now?"

Awimoway
Jun 28, 2004, 02:50 PM
Not sure what you're talking about. I still see pinstripes in the screens in the Tiger pages at apple.com

Precious little, though. They're gone from the menu bar.

seamuskrat
Jun 28, 2004, 02:52 PM
Any mention of what the minimum specs to run Tiger are? Will Blue and White macs and older iMacs and iBooks be supported?

I think it sounds like a good update with its many new features and technologies. The iChat Av alone is a huge imporvement and the new searching meta data is excelent. Of course, Safari 2.0 will be a welcome app.

Its too bad there was no mention or place for VoIP. That would be an awesome technology for Apple to get involved with and tie into the DigitalHub and lifestyle device plan theyhave now.

ndanimal
Jun 28, 2004, 02:52 PM
Why is it so bad that Dashboard is similar to Konfabulator? Everyone seems to agree its useful, why not integrate it into the OS?

/Not trolling, just asking

macnews
Jun 28, 2004, 02:53 PM
64 bit - how many people have been bitching for so long about 64 bit OS??????

I like the new search feature - now the real question: Can Apple FINALLY make mail work like it should! By that I mean, when you reply to an email, if you move it to another folder the link breaks/drops and you can't pull up your reply. I hope this works better in mail with the new search features.

All-in-all I think Tiger looks like a good solid finish to OS X. Remember, updates will start to drop off.

As to the monitors - I wish they would have dropped the price a little bit. Would have been nice. Glad to see they still offer the 17" - not sure but think that price did drop as well.

Awimoway
Jun 28, 2004, 02:55 PM
Anyone seen the Konfabulator site today?? It says, "Cupertino, start your photocopiers! Why wait 'till "first half of 2005" when you can get the original Dashboard now?"

OMG that's hilarious. Glass houses and all that.

blorp
Jun 28, 2004, 02:56 PM
I do not see the $129 (more for me, because I'm Canadian) cost justification for Tiger. The only useful thing that it has for me is Automator.

Savage Henry
Jun 28, 2004, 02:56 PM
Looks like apple is stepping on the toes of its independent developers again...
...

I still remember the drama surrounding sherlock and watson during the jaguar release...


Yeah, I remember that one. and now look ... no one even uses Sherlock.

Despite the big-bannered hype, I really can't think that Redmond will alter their Longhorn spec.

Looks like I'll still be Jaguar and still be proud. :)

Stella
Jun 28, 2004, 02:58 PM
Yep.. looks like Apple have ripped off another product, judging by Konfabulator's website.

Apple don't integrate, they rip off products... SwitchX, Watson... now Konfabulator.


Why is it so bad that Dashboard is similar to Konfabulator? Everyone seems to agree its useful, why not integrate it into the OS?

/Not trolling, just asking

S.Snake
Jun 28, 2004, 03:00 PM
Spotlight seems suspiciously similar to launchbar...

That was my first reaction. Pretty low blow to what I think is the best OS X app out there

SiliconAddict
Jun 28, 2004, 03:04 PM
Dude. Can you get any crappier of an announcement set? Lets see they demoed an OS that won't be available for at least 8-12 months. (No gripes with that since that was what I and may others were predicting.) And they release new monitors. Overall? Impressively craptastic. Here's hoping for some major releases between now and that Paris thing. But I'm doubting it since Job's releases major hardware at "events". :(
This was just plain sad.

soosy
Jun 28, 2004, 03:08 PM
Looks like apple is stepping on the toes of its independent developers again...

Spotlight seems suspiciously similar to launchbar...

Dashboard is a lot like konfabulator...


I still remember the drama surrounding sherlock and watson during the jaguar release...

What is apple thinking? I can't seem to understand the logic behind what they're doing.

The difference to me is that Spotlight really needs to be built-in to the system and although the interface may be the same as launchbar (which I haven't used) all the metadata that it is searching needs to be at the system level.

Dashboard, on the other hand, seems like pretty much a straight rip at this point.

Though I somewhat agree with someone on Konfab's forum who pointed out Apple tried putting widgets in the dock and it didn't work, then tried putting them in the menu and it didn't work, and now they are putting them into Exposé.

abhishekit
Jun 28, 2004, 03:09 PM
So much fuss about nothing. Well atleast nothing amazingly exciting for non-developers.
Widgets. WOW...I wouldn't have to download Konfabulator when I shell 120 bucks for Tiger.
The new search feature, double wow. :rolleyes: seriously, who really finds the current search so pathetic, as to welcome this new feature as amazing.

It was as damp as today's weather in Akron.

MacRy
Jun 28, 2004, 03:16 PM
Looks like the chap who developed Konfabulator is none too happy about Apple ripping him off judging by this post on their forums.......can't blame him though really.

Zeekomkommer
Jun 28, 2004, 03:16 PM
Spotlight seems suspiciously similar to launchbar...

As Dashboard looks suspiciously similar to Konfabulator, they even call the little apps Widgets!

Looks like the banner "start your photocopiers" has an awful ironic touch.

1macker1
Jun 28, 2004, 03:22 PM
HAhahah, just saw it. Having your own marketing pitch used against u is funny.
Anyone seen the Konfabulator site today?? It says, "Cupertino, start your photocopiers! Why wait 'till "first half of 2005" when you can get the original Dashboard now?"

javabear90
Jun 28, 2004, 03:22 PM
haha

bryanzak
Jun 28, 2004, 03:22 PM
Yep.. looks like Apple have ripped off another product, judging by Konfabulator's website.

Apple don't integrate, they rip off products... SwitchX, Watson... now Konfabulator.

Who wrote Konfabulator? What company did he previously work for? What was his job there?

Answer those questions and you might wonder who is ripping off whom.

theROZ
Jun 28, 2004, 03:27 PM
uhh.. i think 64bit os is amazing in itself...

not to mention maya unlimited wow

wdlove
Jun 28, 2004, 03:34 PM
It seems that those that predicted that Tiger would not arrive till 2005 were correct. It seems that by the statement of Tiger 1st half of 2005, means that by this time next year we will have Tiger for sure.

johnpg
Jun 28, 2004, 03:34 PM
This is a fantastic update. You are completely missing the point. The Metadata alone is enough. The spotlight technology is revolutionary, although not original (see BEOS). But Apple has done a wonderful job of implementing it, or so it seems from the demos. If it works as advertised, that's enough. This is incredible technology that will change the way you use your Mac. It's bigger than Expose', or any feature before it.

Plus we're still nine months or so away from release. Who knows what else may show up in Tiger or how it will evolve. This will be an exciting time, that's for sure.

Cheers,
John

wdlove
Jun 28, 2004, 03:40 PM
I'm also very excited by this announcement. The 64 bit OS will be awesome. Now the developers have plenty of time to prepare.

GWhite
Jun 28, 2004, 03:40 PM
Remember the 68 to PPC transition? Looks like the same thing is about to happen again. XCode 2.0 you can compile 32bit, 64bit, or FAT. Wonder how long before 64 bit predominates? How painful was the last transition anyone recall?

SiliconAddict
Jun 28, 2004, 03:43 PM
What is apple thinking? I can't seem to understand the logic behind what they're doing.

Unfortunately I thinking Apple is panicking about Longhorn. There is enough of a revamp in MS's OS and enough features that will most likely bring it up to OS X level that I think Apple is panicking and throwing "stuff" into OS X before its refined. Thankfully they have a year to bring everything together correctly. What worries me is how far ahead they are thinking with their GUI. We aren't seeing any major revamps or changes in OS X, at least not yet. This is going to be the 4th release of OS X with very few changes to the GUI other then adding and removing some of OS X's makeup.
I'm somewhat concerned with Apple's long-term vision of OS X.
That being said I'm also wondering if they might be going for a "major" revamp of the GUI to go head to head with Longhorn in 2006. If you think about it if they released a major overhaul of the GUI in 2005 a full year before Longhorn no one will care in 2006. No release tiger in spring of 2005 then come out with something major in summer of 2006 just in time to smack MS and Longhorn upside the head.
3D GUI interface anyone? :) Here's hoping that's how it works out.

nacl99
Jun 28, 2004, 03:46 PM
I don't know if anyone has mention how huge the meta data thing is.

I know Windows is working on it for longhorn, and its a big deal, new file system for them in order to pull it off i think, and obviously it is taking them forever to do it.

I thought a read a little while back that the next version of OSX (tiger) would not have it because of how big of a task it is to implement it.

So I'm amazed they are going to be able to pull it off for Tiger.

*displays are too expensive though ;-)

SiliconAddict
Jun 28, 2004, 03:47 PM
I'm also very excited by this announcement. The 64 bit OS will be awesome. Now the developers have plenty of time to prepare.

And this is the exact reason why I'm not going near anything other then a 64-bit powerbook. I walk out the store and I'll know it will be obsolete before the end of 2006. Would it run Tiger? Duh. No way in hell is Apple going to abandon all those G4's out there. But its prob a good bet its going to run a little faster. A letter better on a G5 Power*.

johnnowak
Jun 28, 2004, 03:50 PM
Actually, Xcode 2.0 makes it all worth it. Looks good.. finally!

Wish it had CFM support...

Vicelow
Jun 28, 2004, 03:52 PM
Beat Longhorn with this (150???) ridiculous features????
-Searching: cool but it is already that good, that I do not feel a major improvement
- iChat: nice but not spectacular
- RSS????? nonsense
- dashboard: only feature being at least a nice innovation, maybe useful in everyday computing
- Automator, .mac, Voice (i'm not disabled), Xcode 2.0 really not spectuacular
- great displays

For me as a normal Mac-User there isn't really anything witch could make me pay 120$ or more

I'm quite disappointed

jsw
Jun 28, 2004, 03:54 PM
The spotlight technology is revolutionary, although not original (see BEOS).

Good point.

The BeOS had this - or at least a primitive version of this - in, what, 1996? 1997? I remember it being a lot of fun to play with (note that current avatar is an old BeBox like mine).

I'm very happy to see this in Tiger.

johnnowak
Jun 28, 2004, 03:55 PM
In all fairness, I don't care about a Konfabulator ripoff. Konfabulator itself was a ripoff, and also a scam. Putting widgets in expose will actually make them USEFUL. Right now, i can't stand all that crap on my desktop. Keeping it all hidden away until I need it is a great idea. :)

LaunchBar is awesome though... so I'm a little ticked about that. :( However, the new Apple version will incorporate metadata searching, so it will undoubtedly be a lot better.

Overall, it looks like 10.4 will rock... yay corporations!

jettredmont
Jun 28, 2004, 03:56 PM
Looks like apple is stepping on the toes of its independent developers again...

Spotlight seems suspiciously similar to launchbar...


Huh? Not a longtime launchbar user, but based on the one-line LanchBar synopsis and list of features on their website, Spotlight is *NOTHING* like it!


Dashboard is a lot like konfabulator...


As Steve made abundantly clear in the keynote, the key benefit of Dashboard is that things appear when you want them to and dissappear just as quickly. There was even a slide which said just about precisely that. Konfabulator, even with it's last-week "Konspose" addition does NOT do that! Sure, you can make all your widgets come up when you want them to (in a "special" mode via F8), but they're still (by design) active and visible 100% of the time, taking up window space and cluttering your desktop.

Plus, frankly, I expect Apple's widget toolkit to have a lot better API than Konfab's, just based on some of the effects seen today (widgets flipping around, using CoreImage-ish effects, etc)

It would be interesting to see how much cross-pollenation there might be between the two; might one be able to take a Konfabulator widget and run it as a Dashboard widget? Or vice-versa?

DGFan
Jun 28, 2004, 03:59 PM
Though I somewhat agree with someone on Konfab's forum who pointed out Apple tried putting widgets in the dock and it didn't work, then tried putting them in the menu and it didn't work, and now they are putting them into Exposé.

I think Dashboard's more like a single extra virtual desktop that just happens to hold widgets. Konspose is a lot more like Expose because it actually shows widgets that are already active but might be buried by other windows.

point665
Jun 28, 2004, 04:01 PM
What about the firewall?

Stealth mode for Safari:

Identity Protection


Safari protects your personal information on shared or public Macs when surfing the Web. Go ahead and check your bank account and .Mac email at the library or shop for birthday presents on the family Mac. Using Safari’s new privacy feature, no information about where you visit on the Web, personal information you enter or pages you visit are saved or cached. It’s as if you were never there.

that sounds cool...

macnews
Jun 28, 2004, 04:02 PM
According to apple Tiger will run 32 bit apps. Not sure if this has been made yet.

DGFan
Jun 28, 2004, 04:04 PM
Unfortunately I thinking Apple is panicking about Longhorn. There is enough of a revamp in MS's OS and enough features that will most likely bring it up to OS X level that I think Apple is panicking and throwing "stuff" into OS X before its refined. Thankfully they have a year to bring everything together correctly. What worries me is how far ahead they are thinking with their GUI. We aren't seeing any major revamps or changes in OS X, at least not yet. This is going to be the 4th release of OS X with very few changes to the GUI other then adding and removing some of OS X's makeup.
I'm somewhat concerned with Apple's long-term vision of OS X.
That being said I'm also wondering if they might be going for a "major" revamp of the GUI to go head to head with Longhorn in 2006. If you think about it if they released a major overhaul of the GUI in 2005 a full year before Longhorn no one will care in 2006. No release tiger in spring of 2005 then come out with something major in summer of 2006 just in time to smack MS and Longhorn upside the head.
3D GUI interface anyone? :) Here's hoping that's how it works out.

The thing that struck me about the Tiger preview (especially as compared to previous versions of OS X) is how much stuff there is in there for developers to make use of. A lot of the neat features of Tiger (meta data & search, CoreImage, etc...) will be useful really only after apps start to make use of them. By the time Longhorn comes out there should be plenty of really neat OS X apps taking advantage of these features.

So, this should really please developers. And even without a huge new release right before Longhorn it should do well at "showing up" Microsoft.

DGFan
Jun 28, 2004, 04:07 PM
As Steve made abundantly clear in the keynote, the key benefit of Dashboard is that things appear when you want them to and dissappear just as quickly. There was even a slide which said just about precisely that. Konfabulator, even with it's last-week "Konspose" addition does NOT do that! Sure, you can make all your widgets come up when you want them to (in a "special" mode via F8), but they're still (by design) active and visible 100% of the time, taking up window space and cluttering your desktop.


So why doesn't Steve implement this:

http://www.codetek.com/ctvd/

Surely, that would solve everyone's problems???

ivtrk
Jun 28, 2004, 04:07 PM
.

nagromme
Jun 28, 2004, 04:08 PM
Tiger already looks bigger than Panther was--AND with more time in between, it's an even more tempting upgrade.

If it's not worth your $129 next year when the full features are known and the final tweaks are made, then you can simply continue to enjoy Panther. Tiger as already seen is worth my $129, and I for one DO wish it was really out now and not later!

But I can tell Apple needs some time to find the right balance of "clean and Apple-like" vs. "fun and colorful" with Dashboard :rolleyes:

Lancetx
Jun 28, 2004, 04:09 PM
"Cupertino, start your photocopiers! Why wait 'till "first half of 2005" when you can get the original Dashboard now?"

Not unless Apple's Dashboard is also going to be buggy and hog system resources. Otherwise I doubt that downloading Konfabulator today will give me the same thing that I'll be getting from Dashboard in 2005... :rolleyes:

panphage
Jun 28, 2004, 04:10 PM
Well, I can't see what automator does that cron doesn't do quite well. I guess a GUI for cron is pretty cool for GUI fans...but I'm so used to GUIs removing power to coddle weenies (on the MS side, that is) that my instinct is to reject this sort of thing. You know, GOOEY SUXXOR, only Lo5eR use GOOEY! CLI R0XX0R! Heh.

takao
Jun 28, 2004, 04:10 PM
hm perhaps only a moderate to low update at best ...sure no new imacs (in whatever fashion) but the tiger improvements really look good (at least to me as a windows/linux user)....

-the search-thing ... really like that i wish something like that would exist for other OSs
-automator....really nice feature...scripts without typing...gotta love that...
-dashboard... nice exactly what i need and want (i have never heard of -konfubalator (sp?) so this is a no-issue for me)
-xcode 2.0....oh the picture of those class diagramms...good news(at least for a CS student looking forward to switch..)

ichat,voiceover look interesting as well..

after all this is only a preview ... but it showed some nice features...and most important stuff like "core image" are perhaps more important to a developer...that is perhaps the biggest 'new' thing

ThomasJefferson
Jun 28, 2004, 04:11 PM
great work arn

you the man :cool:

johnpg
Jun 28, 2004, 04:16 PM
Apple's Spotlight technology is a feature of the OS that can be fully utilized by third party developers. This will only make Launchbar better, not necessarily obsolete. Kind of like how Omniweb switched to Webkit. Launchbar and the other launchers will be able to tap into this and extend it. I suspect that Konfabulator could work within the Dashboard framework and extend upon that as well. Plus Konfabulator will still have a market with pre-10.4 systems and Tiger users who prefer it over Dashboard.

And for those of you who think that the searching in Panther is good enough, then that's great. But there's no comparison between that and what Apple is promising with Tiger. This is all assuming of course that they deliver. It needs to be super fast even with 100's of gigabytes of data, otherwise it won't be useful at all for power users.

We'll find out (not) soon enough.

I already thought of a great application of Spotlight that I hope we'll see a third party create. Think of those disk cataloging programs like CD Finder and DiskTracker. They will benefit greatly from this technology. I was just recently investigating these apps looking for a good solution to that problem. I wasn't happy with any of them, but found one that worked for me for now. It'll be great to see what may come of this.


Cheers,
John

30jan-1972
Jun 28, 2004, 04:18 PM
I have never seen such a bunch of whiners in my life!! First let's get a few things straight on who stole what from who...

1) Konfab.
-Apple attempted to institute apps or "widgets" in the dock before Konfab existed. Then they tried the menu bar, now expose.
-Konfab does not offer the same feature set shown in the dashboard. Period. Sit down.
-If we're going to get down to who came first, Apple wins with.....HYPERCARD. Do you people remember? The first widget maker á la Apple.
-Konfab is run by ex-Apple employees - what inside knowledge did they steal??
-Like I care. Make a real piece of software then I'll listen when you whine that Apple just smoked you.
-Konfab is a resource pig and I will be happy to see Apple do it right.

2) LaunchBar.
-There are at least 3 other pieces of software that do the same. Where's the outcry over them.
-Launch Bar is in perma-beta and is horribly buggy IN ANY ENVIRONMENT OTHER THAN THE ONE USED BY THE DEV. At least Apple's searchlight won't crash my computer when certain apps are running.
-Launch bar is slow and a massive resource pig. It makes Konfab look awesome.
-Again, like I care. Make some real software and then I'll care.

Everyone must have expected GUI type improvements in the OS. Did you think Apple would do nothing in this area? Oh... I guess Apple will just ignore searching meta-data and desk ACCESSORIES? As to the other improvements. Panther added Exposé. Tiger is adding a whole lot of other things, things of greater substance.

As to $$ of new monitors, etc. These are pro machines. End of story. Do I care you can't afford them? No. Why? Cause they're not intended to be sold to a bunch of people who were holding out FOR NEW IMACS. They're targeted toward developers and pro users. Thank you, gg.

Quit whining.

30 Jan. 1972

GeeYouEye
Jun 28, 2004, 04:20 PM
I'm worried about the system requirements... though they aren't specific on the preview site, they do say that CoreImage will scale down to any graphics card that a Mac that can run Tiger will have... The performance gains and features supported by Core Image ultimately depend on the graphics card. Graphics cards capable of pixel-level programming deliver the best performance. But Core Image automatically scales as appropriate for systems with older graphics cards, for compatibility with any Tiger-compatible Mac.

Supported graphics cards:
ATI Radeon 9800 XT
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
ATI Radeon 9700 Pro
ATI Radeon 9600 XT
ATI Radeon 9600 Pro
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700
ATI Mobility Radeon 9600
NVIDIA GeForceFX Go 5200
NVIDIA GeForceFX 5200 Ultra
These cards are available in today’s PowerBooks, Power Mac G5s and both the 17-inch and 20-inch iMac.


Goodbye iBook, all but the newest iMacs, QS and older G4's, older PB's...

On the plus side XCode 2 looks like it's going to kick ass. I wonder if one will be able to chart graphically to generate code... now THAT would be beyond wonderful. I think that, plus all the UNIX upgrades (FreeBSD 5.x and Resource Fork safe cp! woo!!)

I think this will help ease the 32-64 bit transition, which would otherwise be almost as painful as 68k-PPC

ChrisH3677
Jun 28, 2004, 04:23 PM
Well, first things first. I was wrong. I thought the screenshots were fake. Sorry for doubting you, Arn! :D

Secondly, there's definitely more in Tiger than Panther. Panther was the biggest letdown once I'd bought it. The only thing that made Panther worth it to me, was the significant stability improvements. I hardly use Expose.

There's a lot more in Tiger than Panther. Compare these two pages...
Panther's new features (http://www.apple.com/macosx/newfeatures/)
Tiger's new features (http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/)

For me, there's no contest.

On the Konfabulator thing, I do think it's a low blow from Apple, but, what goes around, comes around. K got their Karma.

Hopefully with Apple's Dashboard, developers will be able to sell their widgets. I guess, K has been bitten by their own dog. The K guys happily made a money off widget developers efforts but now cry foul. Sorry K guys, but you were prepared to play for yourself and now you've been kicked by the master of that. It's probably too late for K to setup a way to for developers to sell their widgets.

anonymous161
Jun 28, 2004, 04:23 PM
So, let me see. Apple opens all of these frameworks for developers to build apps on so that in the following OS X upgrade they can just rip them off? So where exactly is the rest of the 2 billion in Apple R&D going anyway? I guess anodized aluminum and polycarbonate.

ifjake
Jun 28, 2004, 04:26 PM
i used to like konfabulator, but at around update 1.5 or somethin it started messing up things. it's a display problem that i've had for a while that seems to be tipped off by third party stuff, and konfabulator did it (see pic). when i heard this news about the ripoff i went to konfabulator to see what was up, and decided to download the new version to see if it works right now. but it doesn't and now they're charging people for it. so i don't like konfabulator anymore. maybe steve himself was ticked that they started charging and decided to make his own. i'm all for donationware, i've given a few times to some programmers for some good work. konfabulator just isn't worth it. but there's more to tiger than the dashboard deal, that's just a little toy compared to what else they're working on. personally i don't think i will upgrade to tiger. i upgraded to panther because it was all stuff that i could use. i can't use some of the tiger enhancements such as 64 bit power and the new graphics stuff. so it's not worth it. it's too much money to have to upgrade hardware for software's sake. console gaming is way smarter than computer gaming for that reason.

sethypoo
Jun 28, 2004, 04:27 PM
What a bunch of sour apples. :p

Tiger is a much more exciting update than Panther.

Spotlight: Metadata in Finder and more. What could be better?

Automater: The possibilities are endless. If this is implemented correctly, it will be a very powerful feature.

Dashboard: A cleaner version of Konfab with Apple's design touches.

Safari RSS: Finally, an easy, straightforward, Mac-esque way to do RSS!

iChat AV: The hi-res video rocks.

NO PINSTRIPES :)

This is a very solid update to the OS. Far more impressive than the one-hit wonder that was Panther: "oh boy, I can make my windows fly off the screen... uh, is that all there is?"

Hear hear! I agree, this is great news. The Automator thing looks amazing, as does the Dashboard feature.

Can Konfab sue Apple? Seems likely to me.

sethypoo
Jun 28, 2004, 04:30 PM
If Apple owns the rights to the "widget" idea, they have every right to use it. If not, than the makers of Konfabulator should sue.

30jan-1972
Jun 28, 2004, 04:32 PM
Hear hear! I agree, this is great news. The Automator thing looks amazing, as does the Dashboard feature.

Can Konfab sue Apple? Seems likely to me.

Sue Apple for what? Inventing Hypercard?

30 Jan 1972

kcmac
Jun 28, 2004, 04:37 PM
from slashdot:

"I really hate reading this panic "they're stealing!" attitude every time.

Let's do a review here, okay?"

1984: Apple introduces desk accesories. Little programs that go anywhere on the desktop and can be run in parallel to other applications.

1986-ish: Apple introduces Multifinder.

1990-ish: Apple introduces System 7, and deprecates DAs.

1998: Windows 98, complete with active desktop and on-desktop widgets.

2000-ish: Apple introduces Mac OS X. Widgets now go in the dock.

2002-ish: Apple moves widgets to the menu bar.

2003-ish: Konfabulator is born.
2004: Apple moves widgets to the desktop and adds javascript.


Frankly, Konfabulator was a low hanging fruit. It didn't really introduce anything except using Javascript, it just tied together a batch of old technology with a very old Apple idea. It's common sense to realize that Apple would move widgets back onto the desktop and add Javascript support once they realized how well it would work out. About the only thing you can really take issue with is Apple's decision to use Javascript."

Plus the widget makers will now have a greatly expanded audience. Konfabulator is in your way. It appears dashboard will only be around when you need it as already seen in the Apple app Motion.

BTW. Watson now being sold. Sherlock. Then Watson. Then improved Sherlock. I was an early registered user of Watson. Quickly quit using it. All the moaning is just dizzying...

wdnx
Jun 28, 2004, 04:38 PM
2) LaunchBar.
-There are at least 3 other pieces of software that do the same. Where's the outcry over them.

I absolutely agree.


-Launch Bar is in perma-beta and is horribly buggy IN ANY ENVIRONMENT OTHER THAN THE ONE USED BY THE DEV. At least Apple's searchlight won't crash my computer when certain apps are running.

Um, what? I don't know what's going on with your setup, but I've had zero problems with Launchbar on five different machines. Zero.


-Launch bar is slow and a massive resource pig. It makes Konfab look awesome.

Again, what? I've never seen LB use and noticable resources once it's done with its startup scanning. I'm guessing you're either making stuff up, or have a horribly mis-configured machine.

jettredmont
Jun 28, 2004, 04:42 PM
Oooooh, touche.

If Apple owns the rights to the "widget" idea, they have every right to use it. If not, than the makers of Konfabulator should sue.

Ummmm ... "widgets" pre-date Konfabulator by more than a decade. On that, they have absolutely no legal ground.

They can claim that they pioneered javascript-based widgets as desk accessories ... but then, that's only a hair's difference from ActiveX-based widgets as desk accessories Microsoft gave the world in Windows 98 (or was that SE?). And it wasn't exactly a unique idea at that time either (several companies had non-OS-integrated versions of the same general idea going on).

I still think that if Arlo and friend can get off their high horses for a moment they might find themselves in a very satisfying niche ... but given their reactions so far I'm not sure that's possible.

They did a pretty good (albeit not without problems at both the design and implementation levels) implementation of a fairly old idea. They mined that market niche for a few years (by the time Tiger comes out). They either adapt to the Dashboard world and thrive, or they move on to a new niche and thrive, or they sit down, whine a lot, and go bankrupt in a year. This is life in the software industry. Heck, this is life, period.

jettredmont
Jun 28, 2004, 04:45 PM
So why doesn't Steve implement this:

http://www.codetek.com/ctvd/

Surely, that would solve everyone's problems???


Ummm ... because virtual desktops tend to confuse "ordinary" users, maybe?

Do you not see that a single-purpose specialized virtual desktop (which superimposes on your normal desktop) is about ten times easier for Grandpa Joe to comprehend than clicking a button, all his work dissappearing, and having to remember which of the sixteen desktops has his son's letter on it and which has the calculator and which has the grocery list ...

killmoms
Jun 28, 2004, 04:46 PM
Okay, a few things:

For people saying "Spotlight isn't impressive, it's a Launchbar ripoff, etc." well, there's no good way to put this: you're wrong. First off, this signals the presence of pervasive metadata as part of the Mac file system, much like the BeOS File System of several years ago. To those who say that BeOS's version of this was primitive, well, you're dreaming. This is basically the same thing. Is that bad? Hell no; BeOS's metadata, querying, and saved queries (what are being called "Smart Folders") were way ahead of their time, and I'm quite glad to see OS X get these features. THIS is the feature Longhorn was SUPPOSED to have, and has gotten scaled way back to try and get it out the door sooner.

The 64-bitness of this OS is marketing speak. Basically the APIs have been revised to allow 64-bit access to RAM and virtual memory for all G5-equipped computers, and to allow command line tools access to this as well. This is primarily for server applications. This is not a fully 64-bit OS.

Dashboard is a good Konfabulator killer; in my experience Konfab is a resource hog, is overpriced, and has a plethora of redundant (and hence useless) widgets. I'd much prefer a well-coded, non-JavaScript, Apple implementation of this concept. The Exposé tie-in is just a bonus. I'll be glad to see Konfab's developer shuffle off this development coil; he has a reputation for being a bit of a dick. Maybe he can turn his outfit into one that makes Dashboard widgets and sells them for cheap. That'd be a much better use of his time.

iChat AV allowing for multiple audio and video streams kicks ass. I know several Mac-owning friends who will be getting iSights because of this. When we're all away from college (or even when we're there and feeling lazy) this will be a great feature.

Image Core looks, from my perspective as a digital video student, BAD ASS with a capital everything. I can't wait to see how image and video applications take advantage of this new technology.

Automator doesn't excite me particularly, at least from my point of view, because I've never been big into scripting. But I'll definitely play with it when it arrives; who knows, it could be more useful than I think.

And finally, to those saying that Longhorn is going to blow this out of the water or that Apple needs a revolutionary GUI makeover, you're dreaming. Microsoft's "interface enhancements" have been, largely, eye-candy. Where's the logic in an alt+tab switcher that rotates windows 45º or so and obscures most of them? A 3D interface, as someone suggested, is ridiculous. We're dealing with a 2D display device; how on earth does a 3D interface increase productivity, reduce user confusion, or even make sense as an operating paradigm? There's not much left to adjust about current GUIs until we're projecting holograms and interacting physically with projected "objects."

Between the displays and the features I saw in OS 10.4 Tiger today, I thought it was a pretty good keynote—not mind-blowing, but certainly not BAD. The people expecting either PowerBook G5s or iMac G5s were delusional. This was a developers conference keynote. PBG5s were already guaranteed to arrive AFTER the end of this year. iMacs are consumer products, as are iPods. We may see revisions to those products in the coming months.

--Cless

richard5mith
Jun 28, 2004, 04:46 PM
People, please. Apple did widgets/desk ornaments/desk accessories TWENTY years ago...

http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Desk_Ornaments.txt&sortOrder=Sort%20by%20Date&detail=medium&search=desk%20accessories

Please don't tell me Konfabulator invented the idea.

30jan-1972
Jun 28, 2004, 04:48 PM
Um, what? I don't know what's going on with your setup, but I've had zero problems with Launchbar on five different machines. Zero.
...
Again, what? I've never seen LB use and noticable resources once it's done with its startup scanning. I'm guessing you're either making stuff up, or have a horribly mis-configured machine.

As to your first part. The office I work in has 20+ Macs running an array of 10.2 and 10.3 setups. LaunchBar had to be pulled from ALL of the 10.2 machines and some of the 10.3 ones.

Want a 30 second example? Go download Sigma Chess from sigmachess.com, run the app, now try to use LaunchBar. Wave goodbye and hope that only the apps crash. This is the easiest of 8 apps that have major problems with LB. All sent to devs of LB and devs of those pieces of software. I do care whose problem it is, but since there are 8 I'm aware of....I know who I suspect. I know that Apple search won't crash things...one way or the other.

As to the resources. How often do you have LB rescan? on startup? Well, some of us function in environs that change much more often and require periodic scans. Always nice to have the scan go when you're in the middle of saving a nice big PS doc. Murphy's Law...it always scans at the worst possible times. I have no complaints when it doesn't have to scan...but if its not current (or only current at 8:AM) then what good is it??

30 Jan 1972

gothamac
Jun 28, 2004, 04:51 PM
Introducing Konfabulator.

What a wonderful day...

I don't understand the complaining about dashboard. I have the Konfabulator clock, and calendar on my desktop all the time (and the little annoying box in the lower left corner).I Couldn't live without them.
I think Apple saw the value of the widgets, but realized how much better it would be to hide them away until you needed them, at the touch of a button.
If people don't like to use these handy gadgets, DON"T PUSH THE BUTTON!

seamuskrat
Jun 28, 2004, 04:51 PM
Mostly this transition was a no brainer if your machine had the ability for PPC code. What happened though is developers would release PPC only (as they should have, times move on) and it forced you more quickly to consider upgrades.
As apps bloated, and disk space becam a premium, some utilities would 'strip' legacy code from a FAT app and make it PPC only. Kinda cool. But buggy in some cases.
All in all, it was pretty seamless. I am sure this will be far easier of a transition that 9 to X was, or from 6.X to 7.X was for many.

Remember the 68 to PPC transition? Looks like the same thing is about to happen again. XCode 2.0 you can compile 32bit, 64bit, or FAT. Wonder how long before 64 bit predominates? How painful was the last transition anyone recall?

1macker1
Jun 28, 2004, 04:52 PM
the Konfab people have a right to be upset. When Apple released Expose, people pointed out that Windows has had some of those features for years. But the Apple supporters said that Expose did things right, and in a good looking fashion. Now the shoe is on the other foot, and people dont seem to see why teh Konfab people are upset.

I personally think that the entire Widget things are annoying.

BornAgainMac
Jun 28, 2004, 04:54 PM
Check out the stock price on Dashboard for Apple. It's over $42 bucks a share and it went up 7 dollars and change in one day. Microsoft stock went down.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html

Rower_CPU
Jun 28, 2004, 04:55 PM
...
This is going to be the 4th release of OS X with very few changes to the GUI other then adding and removing some of OS X's makeup.
...

You're forgetting the implementation of Quartz Extreme, Exposé, Finder Sidebar, CoreImage and other performance/GUI changes they've made since 10.0. Under the hood stuff counts, too.

Sure, graphically it looks pretty much the same, but to say they've made "very few changes" undermines the importance of the changes they have made.

macridah
Jun 28, 2004, 04:56 PM
What I think is a must have improvement in the Tiger is virtual desktops. I wonder why apple doesn't want to implent that feature, it's in every flavor of unix.

jackc
Jun 28, 2004, 04:56 PM
Let's face it, for anyone who cares about the Tiger preview, there's enough here to get us to upgrade, especially with the pace of updates slowing down.

A little disappointing to see that Safari updates will have to wait for the OS. Looks like Firefox is going to leave it in the dust.

macridah
Jun 28, 2004, 05:01 PM
Check out the stock price on Dashboard for Apple. It's over $42 bucks a share and it went up 7 dollars and change in one day. Microsoft stock went down.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html

Good catch. Also, steve said he bumped into bill gates and he said their relationship was better than ever. Then apple has all those posters taking swings at microsoft.

gothamac
Jun 28, 2004, 05:05 PM
Check out the stock price on Dashboard for Apple. It's over $42 bucks a share and it went up 7 dollars and change in one day. Microsoft stock went down.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html

That's hilarious. Appl +7.36 Pixr +3.32 Amzn +.12 Msft -1.34

kcmac
Jun 28, 2004, 05:06 PM
Good catch. Also, steve said he bumped into bill gates and he said their relationship was better than ever. Then apple has all those posters taking swings at microsoft.

The posters were to pump up the developers getting them into fun and winning state of mind. I would really doubt that they will be shown on TV or the mags in the future.

mactarkus
Jun 28, 2004, 05:07 PM
Few have mentioned the significance of the Nvidia 6800 Ultra for the Macintosh! When I ordered my dream system today (Dual 2.5GHz + 23" Al Cinema Display), I also added the state-of-the-art 6800 Ultra. Thank goodness I didn't have to settle for the ATI 9800 Pro when that was top-of-the-line a few months ago. Too bad I have to wait until August.

LaMerVipere
Jun 28, 2004, 05:07 PM
Is this a record for FEWEST number of posts to threads about WWDC releases? Usually there are tons and tons by now! I guess people aren't too happy, and aside from some nifty features in tiger to come out NEXT YEAR, they have no reason to be.

howard
Jun 28, 2004, 05:08 PM
i bet if apple held off on releasing the new g5s and airport express until today there would have been a lot more positive feedback about wwdc. well i'm sure glad they didn't.

as for today? well its a developers conference, and the things that are under the hood of tiger look pretty impressive... i mean for christ sake guys, we're going to have a 64 bit os! and your whining that features such as dashboard arn't worth your money. well fine, i wouldn't pay 2 cents for a konfabulator or launchbar/quicksilver ripoff either, but i'd gladly fork over my 130$ for a 64 BIT OS!!!

not to mention all the other technology that they are putting into it.

most of you think that buying these os updates are all for the things that you "see" and "use" like expose and now dashboard... well what about the apps you use beyond the os that are updated later to be in sync with the os? when you pay for an os update your automatically recieving the ability to get updates on all your other software. keep that in mind, i know i will when i'm running my 64 BIT version of protools and digital performer.

takao
Jun 28, 2004, 05:11 PM
On the plus side XCode 2 looks like it's going to kick ass. I wonder if one will be able to chart graphically to generate code... now THAT would be beyond wonderful.

what i have read it does only the painting the diagrams after you programmed it and changes the diagramms the same time when you are typing... sounds pretty good to me especially the updating thing (which doesn't work very good in other ides)

but i guess it will take another few xcode versions untill it works the other way around which is ...hands down...more complicated (i remeber rational can do this up to some point)

the more i read about whats new 'under the hood' in tiger the more i am impressed (from the developer side of view)

paulypants
Jun 28, 2004, 05:16 PM
Tiger doesn't look that exciting..

iChat -> no better compatibility for other IMs... Great you have can a video conference with 3 people.. but do you know 3 people with iChat + video cameras?!!

Yes I do actually, can't wait! :)

Also Tiger has a 64bit kernel--if thats not BIG than i don't know what your looking for...

Don't forget that Tiger won't be out til the first half of 2005, which gives apple a little over half a year to add more stuff...

I'm excited!

Now where are the iMacs?! ;)

the silver fox
Jun 28, 2004, 05:17 PM
This will just go into my list of things that people thought were fake but were real.

Goes to show that a) "Apple wouldn't make something like that" and b) "I can make a screen like this myself" are NOT reasons that something is fake.

arn

Yep. I'm going out to buy a new trilby and some humble pie tomorrow. Dinner will be fun.

Kelson
Jun 28, 2004, 05:21 PM
Konfabulator - I tried it, it was amusing. It's hard to justify paying for it tho. The functionality provided that I actually used is not really worth paying for. Also, I don't see any problem w/ Apple competing with a FOR FEE product. It's like ripping on Open Office for copying MS Office. If Konfabulator is sufficiently better than Dashboard and provides enough additional benefit to justify the cost, it will stay around. I personally don't care as Dashboard seems sufficient for me.

Searching - Not a big deal to me either. I organize my HD meticulously and have since the early days of DOS and Linux. (Yeah, I admit, I used to use linux....). I tend to have no problems with locating whatever document I want.

64-bit - Another non-issue w/ me. This is only going to be a real factor if you use applications that need to address more than 4GB of RAM. I don't.

At this point, I didn't see a lot of new eye candy in Tiger. This is fine. The OS looks good as it is. It doesn't need a major UI facelift. What OS X needs is more work under the hood. Things for developers, like Core Image. Code optimizations, speed increases.

I think Apple needs to focus on the following:

- Continue improving security
- Performance optimizations
- Continue increasing stability

I do find it very curious that it is still 8-12 months from release. It looks like the features advertised are all there now. Granted, it may be a bit buggy, but 8-12 months is a LONG time and ALOT of code can be written/fixed.......after all, this was the amount of time between Jaguar and Panther....So...what's going on here?

WWDC is for developers. Hence, a little eye candy was shown (Dashboard), but most of it was new API's for Devs. MWSF is for the general fanboys. The hype from Tiger will have died down by then and with the release coming up, Apple will probably be previewing Tiger at MWSF and announcing some really cool end user eye candy, with Tiger slated for immediate availability following the Keynote.

- Kelson

lefty111
Jun 28, 2004, 05:22 PM
I thought the improvements to iChat AV were cool, but other than that I'm not salivating too much (yet). I'm imagining that since the release is a ways off there will be other features added between now and then. There is shareware that does RSS feeds, and shareware that covers the widgets. Why are these touted as features of a new operating system? The search capability looks cool, but I have never had difficulty finding stuff on my Panther OS. So I'm left scratching my head at the utility of the upgrade. I'm certain that Redmond doesn't think they have a problem now, as the event posters suggest.

lefty

Stella
Jun 28, 2004, 05:25 PM
Good catch. Also, steve said he bumped into bill gates and he said their relationship was better than ever. Then apple has all those posters taking swings at microsoft.

Its called "Humour"....

sockeatingdryer
Jun 28, 2004, 05:29 PM
Hello,

I have a friend that's willing to copy his preview disc for me, but I have a question:

A) Can you just upgrade it after the real public release/is it a full release?
B) Do you have to register it/enter any serial codes?

/I know, dumb question.

lefty111
Jun 28, 2004, 05:29 PM
The more I think about Spotlight, the cooler it seems. It is like Googling your hard drive. People often start with Google regardless of what they want to do on the web, such as shopping, doing research, looking for a file to download, etc.

lefty

rDLr
Jun 28, 2004, 05:30 PM
I do not see the $129 (more for me, because I'm Canadian) cost justification for Tiger. The only useful thing that it has for me is Automator.

There is always a cynic in the crowd.

I am always happy to get a new Mac OS. It isn't always about the glitzy technologies. It's the whole package. (Not to mention every OS release my computer seems faster...unlike Redmond's OS.) For example, currently the little iSync application for .Mac has completely changed my computer experience (in a good way) in ways I could have never imagined. That is just one simple little app for the whole Mac OS. [Apple is now going to integrate iSync into the OS too!!]

When you add nice features like that plus 150 new features the user experience increases exponentially. I for one am very excited about this release. It will undoubtedly get better by next year before it is available too.

Also, I think that this update is all about the 64 bit. When it comes closer and the optimizations start happening I think we are going to see the REAL power of the G5!

goglamosh
Jun 28, 2004, 05:38 PM
In the Unix part of the Tiger preview site, it says that the kernel is upgraded. Does anybody know what upgrade it received? Did Apple drop Mach and go for a pure FreeBSD monolithic kernel? If so, will the FreeBSD kernel offer a lot more performance?

billyboy
Jun 28, 2004, 05:38 PM
I am not a developer, but I was excited just thinking about what the freelance boffins with the new development stuff in Tiger will be able to do with apps and so on for the benefit of us end users. It looks like under the hood, Tiger is going way into the 21st century, and still allow for apps to be compiled for the benefit of G3, G4 and G5s - which will bring the OS 9 brigade with older machines (still the main Mac OS user base) into the OSX fold in droves.

IMO Panther was a big step up from Jaguar in terms of how smoothly it works, and if the same change in gear can be achieved with Tiger even with the same sort of functions, then that is fine by me and the Cupertino slush fund can have my $129

The search feature in the menubar will give me one less reason to use the finder. which is great. iTunes is definitely a very clever amabssador for switchers, It will be easy to explain how easy it is to find your way around OS X, you just have to say that most of OSX and the integrated apps work like iTunes - people will know what you are talking about far easier than ever before.

Just wait for the correct time for hardware to be released ie not at a developer conference (duh which Wall Street analysts thought the iMac was coming out today?) and sit back and enjoy Apple's continued attack on the PC/Windows/music/digital everything world.

Thirteenva
Jun 28, 2004, 05:48 PM
As Steve made abundantly clear in the keynote, the key benefit of Dashboard is that things appear when you want them to and dissappear just as quickly. There was even a slide which said just about precisely that. Konfabulator, even with it's last-week "Konspose" addition does NOT do that! Sure, you can make all your widgets come up when you want them to (in a "special" mode via F8), but they're still (by design) active and visible 100% of the time, taking up window space and cluttering your desktop.


Oh i see... adding a feature or two the original did not have makes it less of a rip off, got ya. Now it makes sense... no wait it doesn't. Saying something with conviction doesn't make it correct.

This is a konfabulator 'inspired' app, that's the bottom line, like it or not.

Natron
Jun 28, 2004, 05:49 PM
I'm betting we'll see some new apps in January at MWSF to go along with Tiger. Maybe iLife '05:D. Office app? :confused:

Yep...everyone start your MWSF wishlists!

NOV
Jun 28, 2004, 05:50 PM
Is Safari now tied to the OS? I think they should just release a new RSS version, when it's ready.

Where have I seen this kind of behavior before?

Fukui
Jun 28, 2004, 05:50 PM
In the Unix part of the Tiger preview site, it says that the kernel is upgraded. Does anybody know what upgrade it received? Did Apple drop Mach and go for a pure FreeBSD monolithic kernel? If so, will the FreeBSD kernel offer a lot more performance?
No, switching to FreeBSD would mean all your apps would stop working on Tiger! Mach, while perhaps sacrificing a little speed, provides a lot of flexibility. A monolithic kernel isn't always the best solution, besides, Mach was designed from the begining for MP machines...

I think everything apple anounced today for Tiger are what developers needed to know about (new APIs and plug-in architectures). Things non-developers need to know about (the glitz and wow) will be revealed in MWSF where it belongs...

jamka
Jun 28, 2004, 05:53 PM
I haven't read any of the rumors about tiger, so I'm impressed. I like the style. I like the style of the gadgets. Even the little things are great, like the reflections in ichat av. Beautiful.

Edot
Jun 28, 2004, 05:54 PM
THIS IS A DEVELOPERS CONFERENCE, NOT A HARDWARE PEEP SHOW!! How many of you have used Tiger? I know all of the people saying they won't buy this will buy it. The potential of this os looks really good. All of the video/image API's will allow applications to become that much more useful. I don't think anyone really realizes how awesome the searching feature is. Panther looked even more "useless" of an upgrade over Jaguar. This looks amazing. The development potential also looks really good. I have seen a lot of, "Nothing I would use" complaints, but very little requests of what you do want. I can see iLife, FCP, Shake,etc. become much more advanced with 64-bit. Remember Steve talking about de-blurring photos with one click. I think Tiger brings that into reality. Also, Konfab is a terrible application. Great idea, but not very usefull. It is so sluggish and gets in the way. Apple's implementation is far better, and will probably continue to get better. If Apple can make a better app then why stop them. I wonder how many of you would defend MS if Apple released an Office app. I would like to hear from developers who have access to the demo. There comments are much more useful to me than a bunch of iMac G5 dreamers who surf the internet. Don't be so quick to judge. This OS is a year away. Probably waiting for the hardware to catch up. Tiger will rock, everyone will upgrade, enough said.

age234
Jun 28, 2004, 05:55 PM
I'm looking forward to Tiger. Everyone at my work (web/graphic design) was going nuts over all the development-related stuff (UNIX, Automator, Xcode). I think it'll be cool.

I see they've made the menu bar shiny now. That'll be cool.

I'm a little let down, because I was hoping for an Aqua Finder. I don't dislike metal, but I like Aqua more. Attached is an example of what I was thinking of. I was also REALLY hoping (and maybe it's there) for the bottom of the Finder window to tell the size of the selected file(s). I don't ALWAYS need to see how much disk space is left. Command-I is just a little bit of unnecessary effort. See attachment.

Again, I'm a little let down overall, meybe because THEY HAVEN'T PUT IT UP for streaming. But Tiger's going to be great.

Thirteenva
Jun 28, 2004, 05:55 PM
Apple's Spotlight technology is a feature of the OS that can be fully utilized by third party developers. This will only make Launchbar better, not necessarily obsolete. Kind of like how Omniweb switched to Webkit. Launchbar and the other launchers will be able to tap into this and extend it. I suspect that Konfabulator could work within the Dashboard framework and extend upon that as well. Plus Konfabulator will still have a market with pre-10.4 systems and Tiger users who prefer it over Dashboard.

To the best of my knowledge Omniweb 5 still uses webcore, not webkit, at least as of v5 beta 2 they did.

lefty111
Jun 28, 2004, 06:06 PM
Hey, I noticed that Safari can save web pages with links... the only thing I missed from IE is the scrapbook, and I guess Safari will now have a similar capability.

age234
Jun 28, 2004, 06:07 PM
I'll admit, Spotlight is looking kind of cool to me now. When the leaked screenshots came out, I thought that that was proof the shots were fake. But they weren't. And, judging from the pics on apple.com, the "spotlight" gets sharper 'round the edges as the search narrows down. Pretty cool.

ratspg
Jun 28, 2004, 06:09 PM
im only disappointed because we rumor alot and build up what was never supposed to be built in the first place, other than that, im excited about 10.4... ADD tabs to iChat though! come on, i though apple was about simplicity? tabs is just a TAD easier to develop than multiple video streams/audio conversations using new codecs.

virividox
Jun 28, 2004, 06:11 PM
aUTOmator and spotlight have me the most excited but i dotn knwo if its its enough for me to shell out money.

nagromme
Jun 28, 2004, 06:13 PM
I've lost count of how many of these I've seen:

"Apple only has a year left to enhance Tiger. Doesn't look like it will offer much. The ONE and ONLY thing it has that MIGHT get me to upgrade is XXXXX."

...where XXXXX is a different thing for each poster who says it's the only worthy feature :D Such as:

New 64-bit app support
Automator
Spotlight instant searching and metadata system
Dashboard
Videoconferencing (with H.264: better quality at the same bandwidth)
Safari RSS
VoiceOver
New .Mac stuff
CoreImage and ready-made filters
Xcode 2
And the other 140 out of 150 features they didn't yet announce :D

jettredmont
Jun 28, 2004, 06:15 PM
I do find it very curious that it is still 8-12 months from release. It looks like the features advertised are all there now. Granted, it may be a bit buggy, but 8-12 months is a LONG time and ALOT of code can be written/fixed.......after all, this was the amount of time between Jaguar and Panther....So...what's going on here?


There's a huge difference between a "working demo" and final code, of course (although at least Apple doesn't do the "PowerPoint Demo" which was so unfortunately common four or five years ago ...). But, I think more importantly, I didn't see any evidence that the new kernel (FreeBSD 5.x) was up and working fully yet. [Edit: Panther is indeed 5.0, but I believe Tiger is a minor rev up from that.] A kernel change requires both a considerable amount of development work from one end of the app to the other and an enourmous amount of QA regression testing to make sure it gets released as stable as possible.

jettredmont
Jun 28, 2004, 06:35 PM
Oh i see... adding a feature or two the original did not have makes it less of a rip off, got ya. Now it makes sense... no wait it doesn't. Saying something with conviction doesn't make it correct.

This is a konfabulator 'inspired' app, that's the bottom line, like it or not.

Well, given that what Konfabulator offers over previous efforts is next to nothing (I've reinstalled the latest and continue to be unimpressed), I think that a few key usability features like "that stupid weather widget keeps getting in the way of my iTunes playlist" are quite significant.

When you've really only got one or two features, someone re-implementing the idea you re-implemented last year, and adding one or two key features doesn't qualify as a rip-off.

Really. Can you list the innovative features of Konfabulator?

IMHO, if Apple is "ripping off" Microsoft and themselves and a dozen other widget-dreaming companies moreso than the Konfabulator guys.

Granted, Konfabulator may well (assuming the developers can get over their moaning and actually work to develop the thing) be significantly more advanced by the time Dashboard is available. Great! Then they'll have a market to sell to! Market it as "all the things Dashboard should have been"! Support Dashboard widgets so that your users get all that plus more! Integrate into the UI to become a Dashboard replacement! Put some *real* innovation into your product!

To think that implementing a decade-old+ idea somehow gives you a lifetime patent on that idea is just plain ridiculous.

I hate to rip into Konfabulator like this, but it's really not nearly as important as its developers apparently believe it is. If they feel the need to bitch and moan about this, then they should be ready for the reality check: what they did wasn't overly original, and it hasn't been overly successful. They should focus on innovating their product with new ideas, thinking outside the simple widget framework box and putting something wholly original and useful oput there. That is something they can claim a right to profitting from. You can't patent someone else's idea. You can grow it, build a niche around it, and make it a reality, but that is, has always been, and will always be the far riskier route: if it's not your root concept and the advances you make are elementary then someone else can do the same, and if there's money to be made then someone with a larger bankroll will re-implement your niche product better and drive you out of business.

Again, if Konfabulator has some original ideas going for it I'd like to hear them. As things stand, I don't see anything original there.

jknight8907
Jun 28, 2004, 06:42 PM
.... become much more advanced with 64-bit

So I won't be able to use this with my 32-BIT POWERBOOK? Anyone else smell a 64-bit (i.e. G5m) PB between now and when Tiger comes out???

reyesmac
Jun 28, 2004, 06:47 PM
I love tiger so far but I wonder what they really have up their sleeve for the final release. Does anyone remember what stuff Apple waited until the last minute to show for Panther? Or is this pretty much it?
I think for sure the finder will get a new coat of white or grey paint. The blue color on the Apple menu does not match the color on the buttons in the finder. And seeing how the make use of glossy buttons, I think they will get rid of the gumdrops and install high gloss drops.

As I sit here copying dozens of CD's to my drive, I wish they would just copy Microsoft and put animations on their copy windows. Along with what CD is being copied (I have 3 CD drives running) and just have it all laid out better than it is now. Maybe it could be smart enough to know if I am copying the whole disk and have a little check-mark to eject the disk when it is done copying.

whooleytoo
Jun 28, 2004, 06:47 PM
Tiger certainly isn't the 'flash' OS that Panther was (Exposé, FUS, new Finder) or Jaguar (Rendevous, Quartz Extreme, loads of apps), but it is a very interesting upgrade, especially for developers.

CoreImage, CoreVideo, the new search funcationality and many things about Xcode (in particular, the new design modelling and auto-vectorisation - woohoo!) will be of interest to most developers.

Dashboard could be an interesting opportunity for 3rd party developers.

And Automator could get a lot more people interested in automation and scripting (and then onto programming?).

It's a long way from completion, so there still could be many gaps to be filled in. I'd certainly expect some UI tweaks before it's launched, especially given it's so far away still.

Telomar
Jun 28, 2004, 06:52 PM
I'm looking forward to Tiger. Everyone at my work (web/graphic design) was going nuts over all the development-related stuff (UNIX, Automator, Xcode).That in my mind was really the true strength of tiger but maybe that's because I work in CFD and could see this as helping Apple have companies port programs across. Certainly developers will love this update though.

So I won't be able to use this with my 32-BIT POWERBOOK? Anyone else smell a 64-bit (i.e. G5m) PB between now and when Tiger comes out???Tiger supports fat binaries and Xcode 2.0 does compiles for the various chips from 1 set of source code so it really doesn't state much about hardware at all since all current hardware will be supported.

dstorey
Jun 28, 2004, 06:56 PM
I've not seen this mentioned but anyone seen the new iChat icon? Apart from looking ugly, there is no AOL running man. I always thought when thinking about iChat and multi client support that it would be out of place having the aol badge only. Maybe its a huge suggestion that they are woerking on multi client support for iChat but don't have the licencing or the code in place to announce it yet?

terceiro
Jun 28, 2004, 06:57 PM
1. I'm in the camp that holds that Konfabulator looks purty, but is a resource hog and really not original in itself. But it does look nice. Right now, I think that Konfab has the upper hand on Dashboard, but Dashboard is still development code (with an *orange* calculator?! I like orange, but not for an application). Plus, whiners make me angry.

The only reasonable way to use Konfab is to set a widget to desktop level and then use expose to view them (by clearning the screen). Otherwise: useless. Plus, most of the widgets on Konfab are redundant and stupid.

I love how when a shareware app becomes popular, people always say, "I don't know why Apple doesn't put this in the OS," but as soon as Apple does, they cry foul. Should Apple pay to license the (non-original) idea, or the crappy implementation?

2. From what I know of metadata in the OS, I think it will change my computing life. Forever. For good. Initial application might be just OK, but the possibilities are amazing. Ditto with Core Image & Video.

3. This is the developer's conference. If Apple had any major commercial announcements, they would have made it a more public event (with streaming, etc). In this case, they were speaking to a specific (closed) audience. If this makes you annoyed, it's because they weren't speaking to you.

4. In Windows-world, the average user upgrades every other version. There's just not enough to justify the jump for each version. We're pretty spoiled in Mac-land, where every upgrade has at least one gotta-have-it feature. Will Tiger be better than the previous versions of Mac OS X? I sure hope so. Will it be the be-all, end-all upgrade, from which no other upgraded can come? No. Tiger will not be perfect; there will still be room for improvement. Thus, we'll all have things that we feel are annoyingly less-than-perfect. Life is pain, princess.

5. There's criticism and there's complaining. Most of the negative posters in this forum are complainers (whiners, gripers, whingers, chronic masturbators) who deserve to be ignored. Those of you who offer true criticism (which some people call "constructive criticism," though that's somewhat redundant, since true criticism is valuable and therefore constructive), I really enjoy reading your posts.

6. It appears that no one who's posted so far was actually *at* the presentation. And since it's not yet available for viewing anywhere, you're basing your comments on second-hand, condensed reports and Apple's own website spin. Anyway you look at it, it's shadows of shadows of shadows. You don't even have a casual acquaintance with the truth.

7. I'm looking forward to Tiger, and even more for applications which take advantage of Tiger's new features. Better apps means a better computing experience; the OS is the environment for applications. Better email? Better web browsing? Better office-stuff? Better iLife? Oh yeah, baby.

shidoshi
Jun 28, 2004, 07:06 PM
I know it has already been said, but it has to be said again - those of you thinking that Spotlight is just "the old search with a few more options" simply don't have a clue about what this actually is. If this is indeed a full, functional metadata engine for OSX, this is HUGE. Search, as it is now, can find files by simple options - name, creation date, kind, etc. This will allow you to give far more details to files and find them that way. For example, you could find every last file regarding that new website you are building, no matter what kind of file, the name of the file, where it is located, whatever. Know you have that one MP3 file, but it wasn't named properly, and you have no idea where it now is? Search by the ID tags.

Metadata is a very, very big thing, and something that OSX will hugely benefit from. If this is indeed a true implementation of metadata, Apple should be promoting the hell out of it. If people are good about tagging files, metadata can make it so that, theoretically, you'll never be able to lose a file again on a big hard drive. Right now, if I want to find that one pic of me when I met my favorite singer, all I can search for really is the name of the file. If I can't remember where the pic is at, or what the name of it was, I'm screwed. With this, if I've been good about tagging, I can search for "pic of me with Sonim," and boom, there it is.

I am, however, a bit worried about OSX. From what we've been shown from Apple, part of me feels like Apple just doesn't know what to do with OSX at times. They seem to be doing good about under the hood technology, but a lot of the stuff that everyday people see are a mess. The Finder is horribly under-developed, and needs a lot of help. QuickTime Player has sat stagnant for years now. Mail, in my opinion, could use a lot of work on better organization and whatnot. (Yes, even including the new Smart search features.) iChat needs polishing in a lot of ways. (Which may or may not be coming.) RSS is nice and all, but when you can't even turn off underlined links in the standard Safari prefs, the app needs a lot of work. (Which, again, may or may not be coming.) At least, for Safari, Apple needs to steal a cue from OmniWeb and give us far more searching abilities than just Google. iCal has had no major upgrades for a while, so far as I know, and iPhoto still needs quite a bit of work.

I just feel like Apple keeps tossing in all of these little bells and whistles, which are nice, but they really need to go back and put more work into what they have already given us. It feels, to me, that Apple keeps giving us stuff, upgrades it a bit, then forgets about it in order to toss out more new stuff. I love new stuff, don't get me wrong, but I also like fully polished old stuff.

krel
Jun 28, 2004, 07:13 PM
The directory http://stream.qtv.apple.com/events/jun/wwdc2004 apparently exists, so i guess a belated stream isn't too far off now...

Les McQueen
Jun 28, 2004, 07:17 PM
I hope them dashboard widget colours are customisable. But I guess the kids will love them. All new things take a little getting used to.

beg_ne
Jun 28, 2004, 07:23 PM
I've already got a check written out and undated for when Tiger is out! :cool:

I think there could be lots of cool stuff. Metadata, before M$ even. :D
Core Image sounds really badass and has a lot of potential for cool graphical stuff. Hopefully Apple will also make it so scolling and window resizing is done by the GPU, to polish up the last part of the UI thats not quite there with the Snappiness.

New iChat features are awesome, I hope AIM releases an update to use the improved codec since in my experience AIM is kind of...ass compared to iChat as far as the video quality.

Couple things though, I hope they get rid of the blue highlight by the Apple menu and the Search Button/Menu in the toolbar, its just too strong and almost Windows'ish (agh! noooo!)

I also really hope they clean up the widgets, man those things are ugly as sin. I want them to look sleek and professional, just like the rest of the OS. I couldn't imagine using a nice sleek Pro app and then pressing the button and seeing that bright toy-like *BLEH* looking widgets.

I hope some of my dreams about Core Graphics come true, looking at some of the included it would be awesome, Imagine having a borderless semi-transparent grey Adium contact list at the top corner of your monitor, then when one of your good friends logs on you've set to have a subtle "sun beam" quickly shine from their name. We could get some of those water ripple effects when items are removed from the dock instead of the not very exciting puff, etc.

All in all it will be a long hard wait for Tiger for me. :)

jaw04005
Jun 28, 2004, 07:24 PM
I wonder when Apple will seed the preview edition of Tiger to ADC members? I can't quite remember when Panther was seeded, I was thinking within a few days after the keynote. Hopefully, this round it will be easier and faster to download.

movabi
Jun 28, 2004, 07:24 PM
Why has my comment been removed? I hope this is a screw up and not an intentional delete... If the later, I think it is a sad state of affairs if unpopular ideas or suggestions are silenced. I really don't even know what was so awful about my post. I thought all ideas were good... creates a discourse that leads to innovation... I really hope this is a screw up.

age234
Jun 28, 2004, 07:25 PM
Did anyone notice that the Tiger disc images on the Apple site says:

Tiger
Mac OS X Version 10.4

While the banner photos from yesterday said:

Tiger Mac OS X

Does it mean anything? Probably not. But it's somewhat interesting.

jakemikey
Jun 28, 2004, 07:34 PM
I also really hope they clean up the widgets, man those things are ugly as sin. I want them to look sleek and professional, just like the rest of the OS. I couldn't imagine using a nice sleek Pro app and then pressing the button and seeing that bright toy-like *BLEH* looking widgets.



Couldn't agree more. I was praying that those screenshots were fake. One word came to mind: gaudy. Very un-apple-like. Sadly, the only thing that really makes dashboard look like a konfab (which sucks, IMO) is the overly gaudy/glassy look of the widgets.

Aside from that, everything looks great. I like this move toward beefing up the "guts" of the OS so that developers can really take it far (ie Motion was made using corevideo!!! imagine the potential!!), rather than more superficial tweaks.

Gonna be a long wait.

movabi
Jun 28, 2004, 07:35 PM
what a geek i am. sorry. :D

anyway, I thought there were going to be finder improvements.

as for developer vs consumer mentality, Why can't "consumers" have some idea of where the technology is going? It is the consumers that support the platform so before you start bashing us "consumers", maybe you should listen to what us dumb "consumers" want out of this operating system. I for one want some improvements in the dock (springloaded folders). A faster finder that doesn't freeze for minutes choking on a folder with 50,000 plus files. while i understand that some of these new features in tiger are a step forward, why can't something like springloaded folders in the dock be implemented? If all this under the hood stuff is so complex, you would think that springloaded folders would be no sweat for apple programmers.

GregA
Jun 28, 2004, 07:43 PM
<snip> I think everything apple anounced today for Tiger are what developers needed to know about (new APIs and plug-in architectures). Things non-developers need to know about (the glitz and wow) will be revealed in MWSF where it belongs...Nice catch. Most things they spoke about today involved something Apple needs developers to know as they build their apps. Metadata in files, 64 bit options, graphical functions, widget options, automating, iSync 3rd-party access.

That makes me feel better. The things I wanted to see are things that Apple doesn't need 3rd party support for .... so they may still be in there.

krel
Jun 28, 2004, 07:48 PM
I don't get why everyone's so upset about these widgets. How would you prefer they were designed? Would you prefer Apple stick with the metal theme and make a dozen identical-looking sleek metal doodads that appear on your screen at the same time?
They need to be so colorful and distinct so that they can be utilized effectively. You need to instantly know which widget you want by it's color or shape; it's useless if you have to scan each widget trying to figure out which one you want. Apple is a pioneer of UI first, pretty-ness always comes second.

Couldn't agree more. I was praying that those screenshots were fake. One word came to mind: gaudy. Very un-apple-like. Sadly, the only thing that really makes dashboard look like a konfab (which sucks, IMO) is the overly gaudy/glassy look of the widgets.

Aside from that, everything looks great. I like this move toward beefing up the "guts" of the OS so that developers can really take it far (ie Motion was made using corevideo!!! imagine the potential!!), rather than more superficial tweaks.

Gonna be a long wait.

craigiest
Jun 28, 2004, 08:03 PM
One of the big things in the panter upgrade was expose, but I don't really use it. .

Set it up to work when you go to a corner of the screen, and you will start to use in constantly. The drawback is that anyone else who uses your computer will get totally disoriented when they accidentally use it. But that was incentive for me to start using fast user-switching with a guest account for anybody who wants to use my machine. (Plus I use dvorak keyboard, so an easy user-switch saves a lot of frustration.)

neoelectronaut
Jun 28, 2004, 08:05 PM
All I can say is that I looked at the previews for the stuff...

...all of a sudden my eMac has gone from "decent" to "****ty".

chameeeleon
Jun 28, 2004, 08:07 PM
Anywhere that developers have already put up some more-detailed screenshots? Any changes to iCal or Sherlock, or others to *Safari than the RSS/Private Browsing thing? I'm just curious.
And, on the other hand I've noticed in the screenshots on the Apple website that the newly blued-out Apple menu doesn't have the blue-cover over it in all of the screenshots - for example, in the Safari shot, it isn't blued-out, nor is it in the first picture in the Dashboard section. Either they just added it, or it can be turned off. I know some aren't a fan of it, but I think highlighting it and the Spotlight button don't look that bad at all.
I also like the other interface change of putting stuff like search bars and back buttons, etc. right in the titlebar. I like the brushed apps, but I can see the appeal of having the Finder, or even iTunes take on this look - now that pinstripes have been thankfully almost entirely dismissed.

jakemikey
Jun 28, 2004, 08:15 PM
Apple is a pioneer of UI first, pretty-ness always comes second.

Look, you and I could argue til the cows come home on this one (do you really think the one-button mouse supports your theory here? -- it's just the opposite: prettiness first, UI second). But here's the bottom line:

I don't know a lot about art, but I know what I like.

You've got a valid point about quickly knowing where what is via its bright color, but it's still a cop-out for Apple. I find it hard to believe that the company who came up with the iPod, iMac, and Aqua interface can't find a way to 1) make widgets quickly and easily accessible/distinguishable 2) AND make a common theme that is professional, eye-catching, yet understated. As presented, it just seems so "third-party"

I think it's funny that the OS X interface isn't highly customizable (out of the box) because they don't want their free advertising (in the workplace, at school, etc...) to look like some kludged-together linux desktop, yet they include these Fisher-Price looking widgets in their "highly evolved" next gen OS X release. Just seems weird. Hope they get those babies polished off before the actual release. Maybe if enough people express their widget opinions on apple's os x feedback page, they'll listen up and put some designer heavyweights behind the project.

To voice your opinion on Tiger's widgets, go here: http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/

blybug
Jun 28, 2004, 08:42 PM
http://www.bly.cc/widgets/oldmac.gif

http://www.bly.cc/widgets/konfab.jpg

http://www.bly.cc/widgets/osx.jpg

the more things change the more they stay the same :D

terceiro
Jun 28, 2004, 09:10 PM
http://www.bly.cc/widgets/oldmac.gif
http://www.bly.cc/widgets/konfab.jpg
http://www.bly.cc/widgets/osx.jpg

the more things change the more they stay the same :D

Niiiice! That outta shush 'em! Everybody's arguing about Konfab, but this really shows it.

(edited to avoid the gratuitous repetition of images)

CMYanko
Jun 28, 2004, 09:59 PM
This isn't going to be for 64 bit Macs only is it? I don't see any mention of a 32 bit version anywhere. Surely Apple wouldn't be trying to force everyone to G5s when only one of their product lines currently has the chips.

I'm afraid this is for G5's only. You just don't run a 64bit OS on a 32bit chip. The move to 64bit is a huge undertaking and yet another rift in the apple os line. Next year we will hear about the sales of Tiger, the 12 million still on Panther and the 'other' 12 million still on OS 9 or earlier. It'll be a year or two before I get a G5.

Rower_CPU
Jun 28, 2004, 10:07 PM
I'm afraid this is for G5's only. You just don't run a 64bit OS on a 32bit chip. The move to 64bit is a huge undertaking and yet another rift in the apple os line. Next year we will hear about the sales of Tiger, the 12 million still on Panther and the 'other' 12 million still on OS 9 or earlier. It'll be a year or two before I get a G5.

Apple clearly states that they are only adding 64-bit pointers in the OS for the G5 - full 32-bit compatibility will remain.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/64bit.html

macridah
Jun 28, 2004, 10:43 PM
After watching the keynote on a quicktime stream, I think tiger is groundbreaking and will be super kick ass. If I said anything bad or thought of anything bad, I talk it all back. Tiger rocks !!! :D

savar
Jun 28, 2004, 10:43 PM
I can't imagine a single executive on earth that won't get a TiBook and iCam (or whatever its called) to do 4-person video conferencing.

Shame about no new iMacs, but I'm amazed at how accurate TS was..And the new nVidia graphics card is insane! 8.2M pixels is a crazy number.

I wonder what "first half of 2005" means?

unsigned
Jun 28, 2004, 10:53 PM
I don't get why everyone's so upset about these widgets. How would you prefer they were designed? ... They need to be so colorful and distinct so that they can be utilized effectively.

I think this is Apple's take on how tacky windows is. The ripple effect and the stickies flip are sort of "windows-ey" notions.. didn't Longhorn have stuff hiding on the back of their 3d-windows? But Apple makes it a lot more clean and autere looking.

But one of the things keeping apple's market share as low as it is, is their impeccible taste. In all things. Don't forget, fine bordeaux isn't the most popular drink in America. And it's not just because beer's cheaper. It's becase Budweiser takes no development of your palette to "enjoy".

So apple has released some software which is just incredibly tasteful, and well thought out, and gorgeous. It's not hard to see the design philosophy in the case of the PowermacG5 show itself in the interface of Motion. Motion probably has the most advanced, well developed interface going.

But things like Motion aren't going to bring in the Wal-Mart crowd. It's austerity is actually alienating.

But these gaudy, huge widgets might. Apple will never stoop to the HP technique of covering their hardware in hideous colorful stickers. But the fact is, that type of thing attracts a certain crowd.

that low end market aren't power users. when they're looking at a computer, even aat the apple store, they aren't going to dig through an applications folder and load up iMovie and edit a movie and say "hey this is in the long run easier than windows."

but what they might do is see the dashboard, goo-goo-gah-gah over the bright colors and shiny buttons, see how easy it is to
get at the information they use the most, and hopefully assume the whole computer is that easy to use.

Most people don't do that much on their computer. they probably just use safari, -maybe- word but probably apple works, and maybe ichat. And that's about it. And these widgets, which are actually probably the most time saving, handy, useful things that relate to our life outside of the computer.

Wasn't the computer supposed to be a time-saving device?


Apple shouldn't make a PDA, fine. But how awesome would it be to have a hand-held Sherlock unit that could run these dashboards? It'd do probably about 90% of what I actually want out of a computer. Screw organization. I always forget to put things in a datebook, and forget to check them, but I never have to remind myself to wonder about the weather, or movie times, or the definition of a word, or a google search - these are things which could have a very real and huge impact on our daily life, the things we actually love technology to do.

Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part but I think that might be Apple's best chance with a low-end, convergence device. Cripple the hell out of it. But give me these dashboards, give me sherlock channels, and I think I'm pretty happy.

AidenShaw
Jun 28, 2004, 11:01 PM
I wonder what "first half of 2005" means?

"On or before 30 June, if we're lucky.

If we're not lucky, you'll understand (see '3.0 GHz promise' from last year)."

Natron
Jun 28, 2004, 11:30 PM
For the love of everything, will Apple please do something with Sherlock. I love the TV Guide stations in Watson, and love a lot of those channels, mostly just straight information channels (TV, movies, translation, don't use Amazon, ebay, etc.). I thought Sherlock was supposed to be something when they upgraded it in Jaguar (I think it was).

melgross
Jun 28, 2004, 11:39 PM
This upgrade is significant. Despite not being in line with what some people here want in regards to minor features, this has major areas of improvement.

The interface is already ok. Everyone seems to want something else. They think that if Apple doesn't put THEIR feature in, everything is bad. Wake up! Apple sells millions of these things a year. Most people don't even know how to use an alias.

It would, for example, be good for me if Adobe used core graphics to let me do functions much more swiftly than they work now. Would they do this? I don't know. But if they did, it would be great.

The reason why the finder freezes up when you look at a folder with 50,000 files is because the functions to do so are not real time updates. This might fix that. Would that make you happy?

As to why Apple has slowed down development time is, I believe, because Microsoft is so far behind with Longhorn.

I suspect that when Microsoft said that Longhorn would be out "sometime" in 2006, and that some major features, such as the system as a database (something like what Apple is doing) wouldn't be out until 2009, Apple took advantage.

This gave Apple the time to stretch out the cycle. Several advantages accrued from that.

One is that business hates upgrading. Every time they do that something breaks. There have been complaints about that in the business community.

Two is that it has given Apple the time to add features to the system that might have been almost ready for October, but not quite. Perhaps some of what we saw today was slated for 10.5 in 2006, but now will be here in 2005. This will give them time to improve them further in a 2006 release.

Microsoft might (we can only hope) be stuck in a Copelandlike mire. The system will be at least three years late, without several of the most compelling features, which won't arrive until three years later.

Apple abandoned Copeland when it was two years late, but Microsoft can't do that. They have to keep on going.

What they have shown so far is an alpha build, devoid of most interface enhancements with only demos of the system.

If they are getting stuck, what they release will be a real mess. Remember 68,000 KNOWN bugs in XP?

Have you read the configurations needed to run the full interface? Two dual core chips running at a minumun of 3.5Ghz each. Then there's the Video card, and the memory...

I don't think we're doing so badly.

Rejoice! By the time Longhorn comes out we may be running 10.6!!!

jade
Jun 28, 2004, 11:51 PM
I just wanted to note:

Tiger will not be out for at least 6 months!

It is pretty hard to judge if you want it or not when it hasn'e even been released or tested.

That being said, the use of metadata will be revolutionary. I am sure the release will coincide with g5 powerbooks.

Widgets: I actually think they look very apple like....like the dock icons. And there is plenty of time for them to be refined, but they don't look like mockups to me as other people have suggested.

So now we wait.

eric_n_dfw
Jun 28, 2004, 11:59 PM
The search capabilities demoed today seem really nice, but from what Apple's site says here I don't think this is the same as BeOS's system or the supposed forthcoming Longhorn FS.
from http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/searchtechnology.html
The engine automatically takes all the metadata inside files and enabled applications and puts the data into a high-performance index. This process occurs transparently and in the background, so you never experience lag times or slow downs during normal operation. When you make a change, such as adding a new file, receiving an email or entering a new contact, the metadata engine updates its index automatically. Results of search requests are displayed virtually as fast as you can type your query.
From what I've read, the BeOS and the promissed new Windows FS are true, database engines holding the files. By the way Apple mention's indexing, it sounds like the HFS+ (or UFS) FS is still being used and a separate database index is being kept up to date by the OS automatically.

Is this better or worse? I don't know.

(BTW: There's a good article at ArsTechnica (http://arstechnica.com/news/posts/20040628-3940.html) right now that clued me into this)

eric_n_dfw
Jun 29, 2004, 12:06 AM
This is something Apple should have had when the G4 was introduced!

Build for Speed

At the heart of Xcode 2.0 is Apple’s version of gcc 3.5, the next generation of the industry-standard gcc compiler. The new compiler helps you get more performance from your existing code by using a number of advanced optimization techniques. Auto-vectorization, a technique borrowed from the world of supercomputing, helps you to unlock the power of the Velocity Engine in every PowerPC G4 and G5 system without writing vectorized code. Other optimization tools include support for feedback-directed optimization and inter-module analysis. (My emphasis added)

Depending on how well this works (and how well we developers can be trained to write vectorizable code), this could make the even iBooks run silly-fast on new applications. :D :cool:

GregA
Jun 29, 2004, 12:36 AM
The search capabilities demoed today seem really nice, but from what Apple's site says here I don't think this is the same as BeOS's system or the supposed forthcoming Longhorn FS.

From what I've read, the BeOS and the promissed new Windows FS are true, database engines holding the files. By the way Apple mention's indexing, it sounds like the HFS+ (or UFS) FS is still being used and a separate database index is being kept up to date by the OS automatically.

Is this better or worse? I don't know.I'm guessing that with the BSD underpinnings and applications expecting access to files in the "traditional" way, any new file system would still have to provide access the old way.

Whether it's a database FS or the HFS or UnixFS - it is still data sitting on a disk somewhere. It's all a matter of how we get to that data (our files).

So - lets say Apple changes the OS so that a program writes to an old style location, BUT every time a file is modified, it is also reindexed. You now have 2 ways of getting to a file - via a database, or via an allocation table. You can choose the advantages of a database or the advantages of a tidy organised 'classic' layout.

My only qualms with Apple doing this are
1) Like ArsTechnica says, how good is the search technology (btw thanks for the link)
2) What database are they using?
3) Are they going to allow developers to save directly into the database, or do they have to save to the old style, with metadata (then again... this function is provided by the OS isn't it?)

GregA
Jun 29, 2004, 12:46 AM
<snip> things like Motion aren't going to bring in the Wal-Mart crowd. It's austerity is actually alienating.

But these gaudy, huge widgets might. Apple will never stoop to the HP technique of covering their hardware in hideous colorful stickers. But the fact is, that type of thing attracts a certain crowd. <snip>

Apple shouldn't make a PDA, fine. But how awesome would it be to have a hand-held Sherlock unit that could run these dashboards? It'd do probably about 90% of what I actually want out of a computer. Screw organization. I always forget to put things in a datebook, and forget to check them, but I never have to remind myself to wonder about the weather, or movie times, or the definition of a word, or a google search - these are things which could have a very real and huge impact on our daily life, the things we actually love technology to do.

Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part but I think that might be Apple's best chance with a low-end, convergence device. Cripple the hell out of it. But give me these dashboards, give me sherlock channels, and I think I'm pretty happy.Now you've got me thinking ;-) You may be on to something.

If Apple was planning a tablet with limited capability, they might use simple Java widgets - some standalone, some internet connected, and some linked back to a desktop Mac applications.

Of course, to get development going you'd have to make the widgets run on a virtual machine on existing Macs... in fact, you might as well make it a standard for the widgets to run on every Mac.

Pity our dreams and reality so rarely meet!

bryanzak
Jun 29, 2004, 01:15 AM
I am, however, a bit worried about OSX. From what we've been shown from Apple, part of me feels like Apple just doesn't know what to do with OSX at times. They seem to be doing good about under the hood technology, but a lot of the stuff that everyday people see are a mess. The Finder is horribly under-developed, and needs a lot of help.
I doubt very much that Apple showed their hand today. I strongly suspect that Apple intentionally only showed a few pieces of Tiger. No need to to let Redmond see all their cards.


QuickTime Player has sat stagnant for years now.Tiger's version of QT Player is a complete rewrite built on top of the new QTKit.

bryanzak
Jun 29, 2004, 01:18 AM
I'm just curious.
And, on the other hand I've noticed in the screenshots on the Apple website that the newly blued-out Apple menu doesn't have the blue-cover over it in all of the screenshots - for example, in the Safari shot, it isn't blued-out, nor is it in the first picture in the Dashboard section. Either they just added it, or it can be turned off. I know some aren't a fan of it, but I think highlighting it and the Spotlight button don't look that bad at all.
I think that's just a bug where the apple is highlighted sometimes when it should not be.

thecombatwombat
Jun 29, 2004, 01:42 AM
I've not seen this mentioned but anyone seen the new iChat icon? Apart from looking ugly, there is no AOL running man. I always thought when thinking about iChat and multi client support that it would be out of place having the aol badge only. Maybe its a huge suggestion that they are woerking on multi client support for iChat but don't have the licencing or the code in place to announce it yet?

YES.

This was my thought when I first noticed it. So much of ichat seems multi-protocol as it is (I guess with .mac and rendezvous it . . . sort of is . . .) that I'd be really surprised if it weren't coming. I personally don't need it . . . but I know especially in non-US markets, ichat is almost useless because the majority of people use other systems.

Wardofsky
Jun 29, 2004, 02:09 AM
The multiple screenshots leaked on Friday turned out to be true... proving (again) that most individuals can not conclusively determine fakes vs real screenshots.

Here's to that *raises glass*
Oh well, I can delete them off my server now :rolleyes:

Tiger is a good reason for me to upgrade hardware.

aswitcher
Jun 29, 2004, 02:11 AM
Tiger's version of QT Player is a complete rewrite built on top of the new QTKit.

I hope my recent quicktime pro purchase carries over fully in the next incantation...pretty pissed if I paid for soemthing like this and had less than a years shelf life...

Gee4orce
Jun 29, 2004, 02:28 AM
Someone mentioned that if iChat supported encrypted comms it would be a great business tool

Well, from the Mac OS X Tiger Server Preview press release (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/jun/28tigerserver.html)

iChat Server to deploy private, encrypted communications within an organization;


Tiger Server includes a brand new iChat server designed for organizations that need to keep internal communication private. Organizations can define their own namespace, use SSL/TSL encryption to ensure privacy and Kerberos for authentication. Tiger Server?s iChat server works with Apple?s popular iChat conferencing software in Mac OS X Tiger and is compatible with open source Jabber clients available on Windows, Linux and popular

thecombatwombat
Jun 29, 2004, 02:35 AM
Well, from the Mac OS X Tiger Server Preview press release (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/jun/28tigerserver.html)

Oh, sweet. It will likely work with regular jabber then. That would be excellent.

SiliconAddict
Jun 29, 2004, 02:44 AM
You're forgetting the implementation of Quartz Extreme, Exposé, Finder Sidebar, CoreImage and other performance/GUI changes they've made since 10.0. Under the hood stuff counts, too.

Sure, graphically it looks pretty much the same, but to say they've made "very few changes" undermines the importance of the changes they have made.

"very few changes to the GUI"

aswitcher
Jun 29, 2004, 02:45 AM
Someone mentioned that if iChat supported encrypted comms it would be a great business tool

Well, from the Mac OS X Tiger Server Preview press release (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/jun/28tigerserver.html)

Thats excellent.

Now does this mean that peer to peer cant be encrypted without one of us owning a server?

jackc
Jun 29, 2004, 04:01 AM
Hey, a decent search capability (http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/search_mail.html) for Mail, it's about time!

And I wonder if Spotlight is going to be a replacement for Launchbar. Based on the brief description, it doesn't like they're aiming for such a thing, but you never know.

rdowns
Jun 29, 2004, 04:09 AM
I wonder what "first half of 2005" means?

June 28, 2005 is my guess. It's a Tuesday. :D

stuBCN75
Jun 29, 2004, 04:40 AM
I wonder what "first half of 2005" means?

my guess it means the first half of 2005
that would be between January and June. just a stab in the dark.

ok. i think it will be a good update. with lot more to come im sure.

All the stuff under the hood sounds great. META searching of files is the way to go. This will be a BIG thing. The GUI of spotlight looks ok, and the smart folders is a great idea, i can imagine using them all the time.

I think the real big news is the Core Video and Core Image stuff. I am a broadcast designer and any improvements in video and image handling is greatly welcome. I am really looking forward to using 'Motion', It should integrate perfectly with FCP. I use Combustion and Affter Effects at the moment along side FCP, maybe i will just switch to 'Motion' and FCP in the future. I would like to see Apple a use tree / node based interface for building up complex compositions and effects as in Combustion and Shake along side the more standard layers interface. As long as i can work in real time (or at least near real time) with uncompressed footage ready for television broadcasts i will be happy. the new QT codec, what is the compression on that ? it's not tv broadcast quality, is it ?

ok. quick point on the dashboard thing.
i am using Konfabulator at the moment, ( just for fun at the moment ) Its quite clunky and the widgets are really hit or miss. Some are good, ie the weather widget and calendar but most just don't work or simply look *****. I think Apple can do a much better job. It's no new idea so Konflabulator should just shut up and stop complaining. They got the idea off others anyway.

Just about every app comes from another app in some way or another, it's just the way things are. You take good ideas and make them better. Just like design just like music just like everything. It's life.

just my thoughts :-)

anyone else excited by the core image and video stuff. i think it will move motion gxf software on leaps and bounds.

movabi
Jun 29, 2004, 05:20 AM
augh... I don't understand why some of these "minor" features should be shot down because they're not important or deamed less significant. I think there are enough people who want crap like springloaded folders in the dock, windowshade, some interface control (themes), piles, etc... to have some say of what they want in an operating system. I want a lot of things that are not in osx that were in OS 9. I miss em... they were things i used and things that i think apple should be able to implement with out much fuss or time (maybe i'm wrong). It just seems like Apple doesn't care about what a lot of people want... its apple's way or the highway. What is that crap? Innovation doesn't always mean you pitch stuff that works. We still haven't gotten rid of the wheel or fire. Maybe we should pitch electricity too... HA HA.

Les Kern
Jun 29, 2004, 05:50 AM
What a bunch of sour apples. :p

Tiger is a much more exciting update than Panther.

Spotlight: Metadata in Finder and more. What could be better?

Automater: The possibilities are endless. If this is implemented correctly, it will be a very powerful feature.

Dashboard: A cleaner version of Konfab with Apple's design touches.

Safari RSS: Finally, an easy, straightforward, Mac-esque way to do RSS!

iChat AV: The hi-res video rocks.

NO PINSTRIPES :)

This is a very solid update to the OS. Far more impressive than the one-hit wonder that was Panther: "oh boy, I can make my windows fly off the screen... uh, is that all there is?"

I agree totally. I can see, in this EARLY version, that Tiger will make me more PRODUCTIVE. As we watched X grow from 10.0 which was almost an experiment, to Tiger, which is incredibly slick, one can only wonder what the future holds. It seems to me that this particular incremental version sports a lot of things that folks asked for, rather than a whole new OS. And thank goodness for that. Because honestly folks, I don't need my 1800 users learning a COMPLETELY new OS every few years. I love the way Apple adds value to the already excellent OS. Automator and Spotlight look like a winner. Oh, and for the socially challenged folk that WANT a new OS every few years, there's a bit of eye candy in Dashboard ond other bits to keep the basement lights lit for a while. :)

Les Kern
Jun 29, 2004, 05:54 AM
I want a lot of things that are not in osx that were in OS 9. I miss em...

Like what?

It just seems like Apple doesn't care about what a lot of people want...

You REALLY believe that, or it just "seems" that way? I would submit that Apple SPECIFICALLY adds feature requests that they know folks want... just not what YOU want. I'm really not trying to be rude here, but such a sweeping statement screams for some analysis.

Les Kern
Jun 29, 2004, 06:01 AM
Apple shouldn't make a PDA, fine. But how awesome would it be to have a hand-held Sherlock unit that could run these dashboards? It'd do probably about 90% of what I actually want out of a computer. Screw organization. I always forget to put things in a datebook, and forget to check them, but I never have to remind myself to wonder about the weather, or movie times, or the definition of a word, or a google search - these are things which could have a very real and huge impact on our daily life, the things we actually love technology to do.

Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part but I think that might be Apple's best chance with a low-end, convergence device. Cripple the hell out of it. But give me these dashboards, give me sherlock channels, and I think I'm pretty happy.

I think you're pretty bright, and I believe this is JUST the way Apple thinks. It might be wrong, but it might just be the closest thing to the truth I've seen here. I always think "what do I need this damn thing to DO?" and it's NOT a tablet. I believe if Apple DID do a tablet it would destroy them, because they must not be watching the data out there on those useless gadgets. (I HAD an HP tablet, and, well, let's say it's GONE now!)
Anyway, a new paradigm it is. Bet we see it, and I hope to slap you on the back and buy you a Black and Tan in about 6-10 months.

Les Kern
Jun 29, 2004, 06:06 AM
I wonder what "first half of 2005" means?

It means that by November of 2005 we'll see the REAL Tiger. As said on other posts, this is a sneak preview, not the final products. I'll wait. 10.3.4 is pretty darned perfect right now.

reyesmac
Jun 29, 2004, 06:06 AM
Now that Apple is adding RSS to safari and changing the way we browse, I hope they integrate sherlock into safari and add more components to it. I would much rather do all those searches within sarari than opening up another app. Its all browser based anyway, they could probably integrate the help system into it as well.

urbanmac
Jun 29, 2004, 06:28 AM
so are we agreed:

Spotlight = Launchbar - http://www.obdev.at/products/launchbar/
Dashboard = Konfabulator - http://www.konfabulator.com/

only interesting thing is Automator

takao
Jun 29, 2004, 06:39 AM
urbanmac well depends if you count the "active desktop" thing from _microsoft_ (at least win98) as widgets on the desktop ;) (or DesktopX fro mStardock availbale for windows being 3 years older than konfabulator)

lets face it: the idea is old....very old... and neither konfabulator/apple/microsoft invented it...hands down
and for spotlight i don't see any similiarities between that and launchbar neither from functionality nor apearance

titaniumducky
Jun 29, 2004, 06:49 AM
so are we agreed:

Spotlight = Launchbar - http://www.obdev.at/products/launchbar/
Dashboard = Konfabulator - http://www.konfabulator.com/

only interesting thing is Automator

Neither LaunchBar nor Konfabulator were original, unprecedented ideas. Plus, Spotlight uses Metadata for global indexing which includes content. LaunchBar doesn't do that...

Telomar
Jun 29, 2004, 07:07 AM
Now does this mean that peer to peer cant be encrypted without one of us owning a server?Its only designed for corporate intranet communications so yes you'd need a copy of server set up.

Frat Squirrel
Jun 29, 2004, 07:20 AM
Ok, here is a question for you all. Will Tiger be 32-bit compatible as well, or will I need a PowerMac G5 or PowerBook G5?... I have been thinking of buying an eMac; however, if it isn't supported by Tiger, why bother... Thanks!

movabi
Jun 29, 2004, 07:40 AM
oh, i forget, apple's crap doesn't stink... and everything they do is wonderful and should not be questioned. I guess we should just shut up and like it. That's not a very good business model (especially for such a small market share).

I have a question... When did the mac user base all become programmers? I get the feeling from all the banter that goes on in here that everyone is an expert in programming or are hardware engineers that think that osx is for developers only and that us regular joes should have no feedback.

I like osx and Apple... i wouldn't have hung on for 13 years if didn't. I'm just a dumb artist and type designer who doesn't want the finder to lock up for minutes at a time and have some features that make my job easier. I'm not made out of money and when i buy the apple brand, i think that entitles me to have a voice. I also hope that Tiger doesn't equate being forced to upgrade to a G5.

robbieduncan
Jun 29, 2004, 07:44 AM
Ok, here is a question for you all. Will Tiger be 32-bit compatible as well, or will I need a PowerMac G5 or PowerBook G5?... I have been thinking of buying an eMac; however, if it isn't supported by Tiger, why bother... Thanks!

Tiger will run on 32bit systems. There appear to be 2 kernels, one for 32bit and one for 64bit. Developers will be able to ship applications that contain code for both (automatically launching the correct version on your system).

svenas1
Jun 29, 2004, 08:28 AM
I don't know if anyone has mention how huge the meta data thing is.

I know Windows is working on it for longhorn, and its a big deal, new file system for them in order to pull it off i think, and obviously it is taking them forever to do it.

I thought a read a little while back that the next version of OSX (tiger) would not have it because of how big of a task it is to implement it.

So I'm amazed they are going to be able to pull it off for Tiger.


I agree, this is going to be the best thing about Tiger IMHO. I noticed Steve said the metadata would be extendable. What I haven't found out is how much so. In an ideal case _I_ want to be able to add a new category of metadata to my files. That is what I really want. Like, say, documents that have already been printed, or those that belong to topic X. I need to find out more ...

This alone is reason enough to upgrade (for me).

oliverlubin
Jun 29, 2004, 08:47 AM
any news/info on mutlithreaded finder. to me that would be a huge improvement alone.

GregA
Jun 29, 2004, 08:57 AM
<snip>from the Mac OS X Tiger Server Preview press release (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/jun/28tigerserver.html)
"iChat server works with Apple's popular iChat conferencing software in Mac OS X Tiger and is compatible with open source Jabber clients available on Windows, Linux and popular"If I remember correctly, Jabber servers can be networked together. So for instance, you could have a Jabber server in each of your offices, and then connect those servers together. It would use the bandwidth more efficiently.

I wonder if the iChat server has those kinds of links to Jabber servers - or even to other iChat servers.

Zaty
Jun 29, 2004, 09:07 AM
This somewhat off topic but I wonder why the Radeon 9200 (currently used in the iBooks and eMacs is not supported? I mean lots of people say the can't understand why the 12" PB still comes with the GeForce GO 5200 when the overall performance of the Radeon 9200 is better. So could it be that the Radeon is missing a feature, thus the missing support of core image or was it an arbitrary decission by Apple to not support the Radeon? Any Ideas?

MorganX
Jun 29, 2004, 10:15 AM
so are we agreed:

Spotlight = Launchbar - http://www.obdev.at/products/launchbar/
Dashboard = Konfabulator - http://www.konfabulator.com/

only interesting thing is Automator

It's all interesting. There's little room for anything "totally new." I for one, think what's being shown is going to make MacOS more Windows XP like than ever. Maybe that's why all the Longhorn jibes. They did it out of embarrassment. But does it matter? Doesn't matter to Windows users, shouldn't matter to anyone else. If one platform does things right, do you think the other isn't going to implement their spin on it because, "they did it first." Pfft. That's silly.

All OS X needs now is to be built with the assumptioin the user has two mouse buttons so that context menu implementation can be standardize and pervasive.

I like what I'm seeing.

Rower_CPU
Jun 29, 2004, 10:17 AM
"very few changes to the GUI"

OK, so the GUI, to you, is nothing more than the look and feel of the OS (e.g. pinstripes and brushed metal) and not any of the underlying technologies, usability, etc. (e.g. Finder sidebar, Exposé, Quartz Extreme, CoreImage)? If so, let's agree to disagree.

iGary
Jun 29, 2004, 10:47 AM
People...Geebus!

1. It is more than 6-months away, this was a preview.

2. The Core Image and Core Video stuff is awesome, argue that.

3. OK, so Apple "copied" Konfabulator. Problem is, most of what is on Konfabulator isn't Konfabulator - it's all open source apps written by hundreds of different people.

4. Spotlight is revolutionary - and it appeared much faster than Finder ever was or is. Groundbreaking IMHO.

5. The iChat update is great..good news there.

Stop whining - you don't HAVE to buy the update. :D

Steven1621
Jun 29, 2004, 12:10 PM
hopefully the new ichat will support AIM profiles...

Natron
Jun 29, 2004, 12:12 PM
oh, i forget, apple's crap doesn't stink... and everything they do is wonderful and should not be questioned. I guess we should just shut up and like it. That's not a very good business model (especially for such a small market share).

I have a question... When did the mac user base all become programmers? I get the feeling from all the banter that goes on in here that everyone is an expert in programming or are hardware engineers that think that osx is for developers only and that us regular joes should have no feedback.

I like osx and Apple... i wouldn't have hung on for 13 years if didn't. I'm just a dumb artist and type designer who doesn't want the finder to lock up for minutes at a time and have some features that make my job easier. I'm not made out of money and when i buy the apple brand, i think that entitles me to have a voice. I also hope that Tiger doesn't equate being forced to upgrade to a G5.

Well, this was a developer's conference, and most of what they showed was for developers, most of the stuff concerned meta-data, which I'm guessing is what programmers will like (I'm a designer as well). WWDC isn't the place to show off a new iCal, iMovie, or Garageband. I think Tiger (esp. Core Image) will pave the way for better iApps, and better professional apps. I'm willing to bet we'll see iLife 05 in January, probably with 1 or 2 new apps, and running on Tiger, they should be really slick.

With Tiger not coming for at least another 6-12 months (I'm guessing April-May), we'll see hardware upgraded to take advantage of Tiger. I think we'll definitely see iBooks updated, maybe Powerbook G5's, maybe new iMacs, but I'm guessing the graphics cards will be updated to take full advantage of Core Image as well. I'm betting MWSF 05 will be pretty sweet.

-------
iPods and new iMacs at Apple Expo! (I wish I knew)

Natron
Jun 29, 2004, 12:13 PM
hopefully the new ichat will support AIM profiles...

I have a whole list of features I want added to Apple apps, including iChat - AIM profiles, being able to talk to "invisible" people, etc.

datafatmunger
Jun 29, 2004, 12:15 PM
10.0 = unstable but cool ideas
10.1 = more stable, but slow
10.2 = the apex, decent speed, stable, everything one needs
10.3 = some interesting new features that are nice, but you don't need
10.4 = bloat

ouch (see below). . .let me state that this is coming from a UNIX person that can do all the searching I need with find and grep. all the automation i need with shell scripts and cron jobs. all the date/time checking i need with the date command. . .and I was very sad to see apple starting to hide things such as the VPN server in the Mac OS X 10.3 client version.

killmoms
Jun 29, 2004, 12:16 PM
For those saying Spotlight is Launchbar, you're sadly misinformed. Spotlight is an underlying metadata indexing and search service that can be implemented into ANY application. Launchbar is a nice utility. Their functionality CAN overlap in a couple areas, but on the whole they're not even comparable. Spotlight is like watching the BeOS filesystem reincarnated, and I for one am VERY excited by that. Instead of having to remember arcane folder structures and such, just search for what you need, and (to quote Steve) BOOM, there it is. This will revolutionize the way we work with files.

As to Dashboard = Konfabulator, I say "good." Konfabulator is buggy, resource-hogging, and too expensive for not actually DOING anything. All of Konfabulator's functionality comes from third-party widgets. Dashboard will be more convenient, faster, take advantage of lower-level OS technologies, and be officially supported by Apple. Arlo can quit bitching and readjust his business—maybe he could sell high-quality Dashboard widgets at a buck or two a pop. Lord knows I'd be much more willing to pay for THAT than I would for his current program. Konfabulator is just the OS X equivalent of a concept that's as old as dirt (and invented by Apple, no less).

Automator looks amazing. I wasn't excited about it until I watched the stream. This thing is AWESOME; the possibilities seem endless. The new iChat AV with group video and audio chat will be a great way my friends and I can stay in touch when we're all far apart. Core Image and Core Video make my heart (as a budding videographer) go pitter-patter. And this is as much as a YEAR in advance of Tiger's ship date, about 10 features out of 150+ "new" features. I'd say the best is still yet to come at MWSF, when Steve unveils even more Tiger functionality. If you're not excited about this OS release, well, you're sleeping.

--Cless

rastap
Jun 29, 2004, 12:16 PM
Does anybody know if the new finder will be cocoa?

whooleytoo
Jun 29, 2004, 12:34 PM
ouch (see below). . .let me state that this is coming from a UNIX person that can do all the searching I need with find and grep. all the automation i need with shell scripts and cron jobs. all the date/time checking i need with the date command. . .and I was very sad to see apple starting to hide things such as the VPN server in the Mac OS X 10.3 client version.

I guess part of the 'problem' is Apple is now dealing with an increasingly diverse user base. Mac users wanting new Macs, and new features; Unix users wanting support of open standards, stability, security and performance; Windows users wanting freedom from virii and spyware, and relatively few configuration problems, and God only knows what ex-NeXT users want.

You can't please all of the people all of the time.. ;)

trose
Jun 29, 2004, 12:42 PM
I don't have time to read this whole thread, nor have I watched the keynote, I have just looked at the preview stuff on Apple.com .

Lots of neat looking stuff, but Automator looks frigging awesome. I have been wanting a tool like that for a LONG time. Sure, you might be able to accomplish it all with Applescript, but that's far from user friendly.
Looks way better to me than Exposé, which I hardly ever use.

Don't get me wrong, Exposé is great, but I can't ever remember it, lol. I'll let you in on a secret- I still catch myself holding the mouse button down when browsing menus, that's been abolished since what, 8.0?

Fukui
Jun 29, 2004, 01:05 PM
This somewhat off topic but I wonder why the Radeon 9200 (currently used in the iBooks and eMacs is not supported? I mean lots of people say the can't understand why the 12" PB still comes with the GeForce GO 5200 when the overall performance of the Radeon 9200 is better. So could it be that the Radeon is missing a feature, thus the missing support of core image or was it an arbitrary decission by Apple to not support the Radeon? Any Ideas?
Does 9200 support pixel shaders or just vertex?

movabi
Jun 29, 2004, 01:14 PM
Whether or not this was a developer's conference, Apple chose to display this project to developer's knowing full well that the rest of the world and even wallstreet would take notice. When you have a spectacular event like last year's WWDC people start to think that it should be equal to or greater than the last. Its kinda like how investors view earnings. I think Tiger looks promising... I just want to know if the finder has been polished and optimized... if that happens i will upgrade for that alone. I'm not one of these people who refuses to upgrade. I will be right in line with the rest forking out my $ :D I just hope by calling attention to features and performance now, maybe they will be considered/implemented.

Fukui
Jun 29, 2004, 01:15 PM
It's all interesting. There's little room for anything "totally new." I for one, think what's being shown is going to make MacOS more Windows XP like than ever.
I don't know about that (XP-ish), but, a lot of people complain about apple's "Not Invented Here" syndrome, and when they finally cast it aside for some things, they complain again!!

macsrus
Jun 29, 2004, 02:42 PM
It seems to me that many people here are complaining that Apple has just ripped off both launchbar and Konfabulator.....

While at first glance that may appear true..... but I believe that both of Apples demonstrations of Spotlight and the widgets go much farther in concept than the original 2 apps did.....
Besides I love getting something for free.... hehe

To me the most important and significant change to OS X is the 64 bit kernel.... It can finally address enough memory for my apps.

Now I can port my apps away from SGI Origins and IBM SPs... and get much better computing horsepower for my dollar.

I cant wait to get rid of the RS6000 setting at my desk..... the slow piece of junk :(

Telomar
Jun 29, 2004, 05:57 PM
This somewhat off topic but I wonder why the Radeon 9200 (currently used in the iBooks and eMacs is not supported? I mean lots of people say the can't understand why the 12" PB still comes with the GeForce GO 5200 when the overall performance of the Radeon 9200 is better. So could it be that the Radeon is missing a feature, thus the missing support of core image or was it an arbitrary decission by Apple to not support the Radeon? Any Ideas?Probably memory. The 9200 only has 32 MB compared to 64 MB on the 5200s. Same as when they introduced Quartz Extreme.

jackc
Jun 29, 2004, 07:35 PM
Automator looks amazing. I wasn't excited about it until I watched the stream.

Where is the stream?

jakemikey
Jun 29, 2004, 09:44 PM
To me the most important and significant change to OS X is the 64 bit kernel.... It can finally address enough memory for my apps.


I've read several people call the kernel a "64-bit kernel". I'm no programmer, but I can tell you that Tiger's kernel is not true 64-bit.

Just read Apple's own page. They basically say everything BUT things like "64-bit kernel" or "64-bit OS" because they know if they did they'd get taken apart on it. Instead they say things like "enhanced kernel" and "enhaced 64-bit support". Trust me, when the kernel really does go true 64-bit, we'll all know about it, because Apple marketing won't let us forget it.

For all I know, since 64-bit tech has so little current application in the "real world", there might be little to no difference between current kernel optimizations and a true 64-bit kernel. For most users, I think 64-bit tech is a solution in search of a problem.

jakemikey
Jun 29, 2004, 09:48 PM
10.0 = unstable but cool ideas
10.1 = more stable, but slow
10.2 = the apex, decent speed, stable, everything one needs
10.3 = some interesting new features that are nice, but you don't need
10.4 = bloat

ouch (see below). . .let me state that this is coming from a UNIX person that can do all the searching I need with find and grep. all the automation i need with shell scripts and cron jobs. all the date/time checking i need with the date command. . .and I was very sad to see apple starting to hide things such as the VPN server in the Mac OS X 10.3 client version.


zzzzZZZZZ.......BO----RIIIINNNNGGG!! Hey I've got a fantastic phosphorous green 10" monitor for you, too!! ;)

diego
Jun 29, 2004, 09:55 PM
Could someone upload the new ichat icon please???

Telomar
Jun 29, 2004, 10:09 PM
I've read several people call the kernel a "64-bit kernel". I'm no programmer, but I can tell you that Tiger's kernel is not true 64-bit.

Just read Apple's own page. They basically say everything BUT things like "64-bit kernel" or "64-bit OS" because they know if they did they'd get taken apart on it.It really doesn't matter if the kernel is 64 bit or not as long as it has full support for 64 bit apps, which it does. This release could be very useful in luring a few of the high end CAD players across as it will make it far easier for them to port existing UNIX code.

MorganX
Jun 29, 2004, 11:38 PM
I don't know about that (XP-ish), but, a lot of people complain about apple's "Not Invented Here" syndrome, and when they finally cast it aside for some things, they complain again!!

XP-ish, Finder looking like it's parents are Windows Explorer and the first level of the Start Menu. Spotlight, looks like XP's task pane and Explorer grouping. Mind you, this doesn't bother me. I prefer XP so I'm thinking OS X is just getting better and better ;)

I think Apple gets slammed because when they reach out and borrow a few ideas, they still claim "Invented here" :rolleyes:

Fukui
Jun 29, 2004, 11:45 PM
XP-ish, Finder looking like it's parents are Windows Explorer and the first level of the Start Menu. Spotlight, looks like XP's task pane and Explorer grouping. Mind you, this doesn't bother me. I prefer XP so I'm thinking OS X is just getting better and better ;)

Well, I agree, the finder is pretty bleh. You probably won't beleive it but I do prefer explorer above the finder (not asthetically speaking) but I like the tree view myself, that way you don't need two windows. I like Pathfinder better than both though. I actually think that the finder should just be nothing but smart folders, but maybe thats just me...

Zaty
Jun 30, 2004, 04:42 AM
Probably memory. The 9200 only has 32 MB compared to 64 MB on the 5200s. Same as when they introduced Quartz Extreme.

Could be, but don't forget that Rev. B 12" PBs only have 32 MB and there is no indication as to how much memory you need. If you need in fact 64 MB, this would mean that PBs (the last Rev. Bs that were built) which are only one year old by the time Tiger is released won't be supported. I don't hope that will be that case.

EDIT: BTW, it's not unlikely that the next revision of iBooks will also have 64 MB VRAM, so unless Apple also changes the graphics chip on the iBooks (which is rather unlikely), it' s probably not only memory.

Gee4orce
Jun 30, 2004, 07:17 AM
ouch (see below). . .let me state that this is coming from a UNIX person that can do all the searching I need with find and grep. all the automation i need with shell scripts and cron jobs. all the date/time checking i need with the date command. . .and I was very sad to see apple starting to hide things such as the VPN server in the Mac OS X 10.3 client version.

:rolleyes: How fast does 'find' find anything ? grep ?

Spotlight finds things in 'boomtime' (the length of time it takes you to say Boom!). And not just files, but across all your data - email, contacts, pdfs. One of the coolest things in the demo is where Steve searches for 'Half Dome' and Spotlight finds a pdf map of Yosemite, having indexed all the place names in the map :eek: :D

And just for you, there will be command-line access to this technology.

Boom! indeed.

killmoms
Jun 30, 2004, 09:17 AM
Where is the stream?

It has been pointed out several times in this thread already, but it's linked right from the front page. There's also a 300MB version that can be downloaded as a file back a couple pages.

--Cless

reno
Jun 30, 2004, 10:39 AM
If you were disappointed by this year's WWDC, then you probably have an issue with depression or in general have a negative attitude and would've been disappointed no matter what was announced. Yes, it would've been nice to see a refresh of the iMac and/or iPod lines. However, if you were paying attention, you really should've been blown away by Tiger. That was, and should've been, the focus of the keynote as it is simply incredible how intelligent and powerful this OS is going to be. Apple truly is ahead of the competition and for those of you who commented in these forums that the changes in 10.4 are "minor" ... you are either dim-witted or really ignorant about the current state of operating systems. OK, so I'm steamed over reactions to an operating system, and I guess I need a little perspective, but so do those who reacted negatively to this year's WWDC, especially the details regarding Tiger. If you don't see the awesome benefits of Spotlight, Automator, Dashboard, H.264, iChat, Safari RSS, etc., then you must just be using your computer for email and games ... so why are you even checking out the WWDC details? In fact, for those of you who were disappointed, I recommend a penance of one week using Windows XP. That should give you enough perspective to really appreciate what Tiger is all about.

Master Windu
Jun 30, 2004, 11:04 AM
It seemed to me that SpotLight is the most useful tool shown in the keynote was Spotlight. I bet that a new file system is required to drive the operation. I bet the upgrade will nessarly be destructive to current data and settings. An upgrade from a panther system should be fine for some. The currently selling emac will meet the min specs I am sure. Sorry G3 or G4 < 1.25 Ghz. G4's may need a memory upgrade to work.

Mac-Xpert
Jun 30, 2004, 11:15 AM
XP-ish, Finder looking like it's parents are Windows Explorer and the first level of the Start Menu. Spotlight, looks like XP's task pane and Explorer grouping. Mind you, this doesn't bother me. I prefer XP so I'm thinking OS X is just getting better and better ;)

I think Apple gets slammed because when they reach out and borrow a few ideas, they still claim "Invented here" :rolleyes:
Oh really? And where does XP use meta-data to search through files? And where is the expose-like feature in XP? And what about the dashboard and the automator.

Right, they're nowhere to be found. It was Microsoft that copied elements from Mac-OS-X for XP and not the other way around. Only in your (or Bill's :p) dreams XP would be as good as Mac-OS-X.

Sorry kid, try again...

billyboy
Jun 30, 2004, 12:08 PM
I love the idea of expose-d utilities, but at the same time I hope developers give us the options not to use Dashboard, and if we want, to stick with menubar icons or Konfabulator or whatever tickles our fancy.

For instance, just looking at my menu bar, I think a lot of the shortcuts will end up better off in Dashboard - calculator, Menu Calendar, iAddress, sidekick, Menu Preferences - so I hope the developers of those products will be able to get their programmes Dashboarded. On the other hand, the Synergy iTunes controls and song displays, The Unread, system uptime, classic, sound icon, international, fast user switching and iClock will be (for me) better left on permanent display in the menu bar ie They are neat, I refer to them pretty much all the time, and to be one click away in a Dashboard would make those particular utilities less useful.

superstring
Jun 30, 2004, 12:38 PM
First time poster here...

I admit, when I looked through Apple's website, I felt the new features were not all that exciting, but after watching parts of the keynote, it is quite a bit more exciting that I initially thought.

Smart Folders in the Finder - One thing that seems only subtly implied is that with Spotlight, you can make use of smart folders in the finder. Imagine making a folder that shows all documents modified in the last day and putting that in the side dock. It would automatically update, and, be accesible to every program in the open and close dialog box! And that is just the tip of the iceberg. You could set up a smart folder for that would show all images regardless of what subfolders they are located in. And from the demo, it is blazingly, almost instantaneously fast. I am very organized with my folder structures too (as another poster mentioned as a reason for not needing Spotlight), but this opens up a whole new world of organizing that will further enhance the organized person's ability to find information and files.

Cross Application Simple Automation - I have never taken the plunge and tried to write any scripts, but have often wished I could automate and get programs to work together. The new visual automating feature looks extremely intuitive and simple. From the demo at WWDC, he built a script that would download linked images (the high res images linked from the thumbnails), create a photo album and import them into iPhoto, then make a slide show and import it into iDVD. All with just a few clicks of the mouse! and the script could then be saved and would appear in a drop down menu when using Safari. This kind of simple scripting is HUGE. You can essentially add features to existing programs to make them do whatever you want (I am sure there are limits, but still, this is something that will just continue to evolve).

Realtime Effects at the System Level - Having access to the library of realtime effects that are being built into the system opens up a ton of new possiblities for applications. Imagine programs making use of the blur and colorizing filters to make deemphasize background windows and shifting the focus to the top window you are using. There are millions of other opportunities to use these features and since they rely on the graphics card, they can be easily implemented without slowing down other application processes that use the main processor. and programs like Motion even use this to create realtime content manipulation. And Steve did even mention in the address that he would hope that Adobe would use this to build realtime effects into Photoshop (imagine the benchmark comparisons -Guassian blur on 300M file - Photoshop running on Powermac 1.6GHz single proc 0.00001 seconds - same test on top of line Dual Pentium machine 30.0000 seconds - i made these numbers up and they are just for example)

Anyway, I guess I see a huge potential that will be built right into the OS. And considering the lead time that developers will have to implement even more of these features, by the time this does come out, it will seem like one of the most feature packed releases ever (just my two cents).

MorganX
Jun 30, 2004, 01:42 PM
>>Oh really? And where does XP use meta-data to search through files?<<

I've already given my thoughts on current OS X finder borrowing form Explorer. And the presentation of Spotlight mimicing Explorer's "Arrange by groups" and the task pane. Regarding the Tiger Demo/Alpha of meta-search that is not in the hands of users yet, Longhorn 4074 and previous builds; Been in development and in testers hands long before Steve Jobs just invented it.

>>And where is the expose-like feature in XP?<<

Windows has had the most functional part of this for 10 years. Tile/Cascade/Minimize. The rest is covered by the taskbar (more efficiently IMO) and the show desktop toggle and MDI (the lack of which is still a major weakness of the Mac OS to many).

>>And what about the dashboard and the automator.<<

The Dashboard in the preannounced tiger would be the dashboard in the Alpha Longhorn, including RSS feeds. Again, Lonhorn dasboard is a better implementation IMO.

Automator, with the exception of task scheduling and scripting (that would be Windows task scheduler) Windows has no equivalent. However, I would say these ideas were borrowed mainly from Adobe and task scheduler and given the Apple polish. Which is nice, but not invented or revolutionary.

>>Right, they're nowhere to be found. It was Microsoft that copied elements from Mac-OS-X for XP and not the other way around.<<

You mean like taskbar (dock) and Finder (explorer) protected memory, window management (i.e. Expose), fast user switching, When did mac OS get a built in TCP/IP stack and dial-up configuration right? iChat (messenger), Encrypting file system (of sorts). For anyone that knows better, this you copied me crap is just ridiculous, and that's why Steve Jobs' is PT Barnum to the vast majority of the IT world.

>>Only in your (or Bill's :p) dreams XP would be as good as Mac-OS-X.<<

Only certain types of Mac users dream about this sort of thing. :p The equivalent in the PC side of the fence dream about case mods and liquid cooling. Edit: the PC side also, unfortunately, dream about writing the next big virus. :(

quasan
Jun 30, 2004, 04:30 PM
another feature I saw in tiger is that you will have a dyndns if you are a .mac user the name of your dyndns will be computername.accountname.mac.com

MorganX
Jun 30, 2004, 06:34 PM
Someone was kind enough to gently let me know that there are hundreds of automation apps with much of the functionality of Automator for XP. Mostly shareware and freeware such as www.robotask.com.

However, clearly Tiger's Automator has much much more polish. The polish and UI is one reason I don't think freeware/shareware/oss will ever compete with proprietary software companys. Anyway, they're not "in" the OS, yet.

Mac-Xpert
Jul 1, 2004, 08:13 AM
Regarding the Tiger Demo/Alpha of meta-search that is not in the hands of users yet, Longhorn 4074 and previous builds; Been in development and in testers hands long before Steve Jobs just invented it.

Hmm, well actually the meta-search was a BeOs idea. And BeOs was founded by ex-apple employees. So no, Apple is not the first one with this, but they certainly did not need Microsoft for this. And no it's not in peoples hands right now, but it will be early 2005, while Longhorn will likely not be out till 2007. So Mac-Os will have this feature long before Longhorn does in a released system.


Windows has had the most functional part of this for 10 years. Tile/Cascade/Minimize. The rest is covered by the taskbar (more efficiently IMO) and the show desktop toggle and MDI (the lack of which is still a major weakness of the Mac OS to many).

The windows solution isn't quite as elegant as the Expose function in Mac-OS, which gives you a overview of all windows at ones.

I (and I'm sure most Mac users) am glad that Os-X does NOT feature MDI. MDI does not allow for easy drag and drop, and it neither allows you to have two documents in two applications open at the same time and position them on the screen in such a way that you can look at them both and easily copy elements (or text) between them. I much prefer the Mac-Os way of doing things. (hint: that's why I use the Mac.. :p )


The Dashboard in the preannounced tiger would be the dashboard in the Alpha Longhorn, including RSS feeds. Again, Lonhorn dasboard is a better implementation IMO.

The Dashboard seems like a flexible function that relies also on third party development, so who knows what it's features will be.

Automator, with the exception of task scheduling and scripting (that would be Windows task scheduler) Windows has no equivalent. However, I would say these ideas were borrowed mainly from Adobe and task scheduler and given the Apple polish. Which is nice, but not invented or revolutionary.

I don't care if it's not revolutionary, If it's useful, that's enough for me.


You mean like taskbar (dock) and Finder (explorer) protected memory, window management (i.e. Expose), fast user switching, When did mac OS get a built in TCP/IP stack and dial-up configuration right? iChat (messenger), Encrypting file system (of sorts). For anyone that knows better, this you copied me crap is just ridiculous, and that's why Steve Jobs' is PT Barnum to the vast majority of the IT world.

The dock, was already available in Next step, long before windows. Protected memory (and things like Pre-emptive multitasking) where already available in unix. The finder was already available in 1984. And Explorer was based on Netscape Navigator. So I don't see your point here.

The reason that I first responded to your post, was that you seem to imply that Windows was the inspiration for Mac-OS which is just nonsense. Sure Windows has it's own merits and handy functions. But everybody knows that Microsoft "lends" more from Apple than the other way around.

BTW, why do you spend so much time on a Apple board if you like XP so much? Doesn't make sense to me.

MorganX
Jul 1, 2004, 11:57 AM
And no it's not in peoples hands right now, but it will be early 2005, while Longhorn will likely not be out till 2007. So Mac-Os will have this feature long before Longhorn does in a released system.

That's the point. What is the point? Longhorn is in people's and developers hands. But Apple may release first. Hmmm. This means what to whom?


>>MDI does not allow for easy drag and drop, and it neither allows you to have two documents in two applications open at the same time and position them on the screen in such a way that you can look at them both and easily copy elements (or text) between them. I much prefer the Mac-Os way of doing things. (hint: that's why I use the Mac.. :p )<<

I've owned several Macs, and started on Apples. I can tell you I really don't follow you here. The ability to manages open Windows has been one of the biggest benefits of Windows over the years. You have to windows open, position them next to each other and drag and drop. Want it perfect, use tile vertically, or horizontally for spreadsheets and drag and drop. See pics.


>>I don't care if it's not revolutionary, If it's useful, that's enough for me.<<

(Automator) It's useful, slick, a great new implementation of existing technology. All these existing pieces are now infinitely more useful to non-programmers and programmers alike. So if we agree on that, why does it appear we're arguing?

>>The dock, was already available in Next step, long before windows. Protected memory (and things like Pre-emptive multitasking) where already available in unix.<<

No argument here. But that won't stop Steve Jobs from claiming to be the first to have them.

>>The finder was already available in 1984.<<

But it didn't begin to mimic Windows Explorer/My Computer until OS X.

>>And Explorer was based on Netscape Navigator. So I don't see your point here.<<

Windows Explorer is GUI presentation of the root-file tree metaphor extended to all logical system resources as well as physical (device manager.)

>>The reason that I first responded to your post, was that you seem to imply that Windows was the inspiration for Mac-OS which is just nonsense. Sure Windows has it's own merits and handy functions. But everybody knows that Microsoft "lends" more from Apple than the other way around.<<

The MacOS came before Windows, they both got jump started by PARC. It's not my intended implication that Windows has been the inspiration for Mac OS. In response to Jobs' outlandishness, I do imply that OS X has been borrowing more from Windows of late. And the whole "Copy this Redmond" theme of WWDC makes Apple look foolish to most people in IT. Maybe Steve doesn't know, Redomond doesn't care what he says. It is more insulting to potential Apple using PC People.

"I" don't really have a problem with borrowing. That's how it works. Half-Life 2 borrowed from id's Castle Wolfenstein. But they are two entirely different beasts. That's how it's worked since everyone borrowed their ideas, and hired staff, from Xerox PARC.

>>BTW, why do you spend so much time on a Apple board if you like XP so much? Doesn't make sense to me.<<

That depends, when you say Apple do you me Mac platform or Apple Inc. You can like one without the other, nothing will happen to you. Seriously though, why do I have to dislike XP to own or like a lot of things about Macintosh? Do you know that most 30-somethings in the IT profession started on Apple II's? And Vic 20s, Trash-80s, and Timex Sinclairs.

Let's not get into age old debates that have no end. But I do want clarification on your opinoin of MDI.

(in Z-order)
1) multiple docs (Can drag and drop between them as is)
2) right click, cascade (can drag to taskbar icon, proggy comes to top, drop)
3) 2 word docs (can drag and drop as is)
4) if neat freak, right click & tile vertically, drag and drop (tile horizontally for spreadsheets and the like)

Been this way for a long time now. To me Expose is giving pseudo MDI to OS X and it's been loooooong overdue.

jakemikey
Jul 1, 2004, 01:31 PM
Comparing Expose to Windows' tile/cascade feature brings one word to mind: desperation.

It's a desperate comparison.

From your profile I see that you're (MorganX) not running Panther, so I assume you may have seen Expose in a store, maybe in a demo or something somewhere, but you certainly don't use Expose on a daily basis, and you're not intimately familiar with its functionality. Your apparent lack of experience with Expose explains your comparison to Windows' tile/cascade. About the only thing they have in common is that all open windows can be revealed. Expose is much more. It organizes, classifies, and manages all open windows dynamically. The user can effortlessly organize windows in many different ways, all with very little input.

It's pointless to argue about "features", or "things that my OS can do". If you look at it like that, there's very little difference between OS X and Windows. And as time goes by and OSs become more advanced, there will probably be even fewer "differences". What DOES differ is HOW these features are implemented. That is where OS X and Windows differ dramatically. Apple has an undeniable talent for novel implementation of old or even contemporary ideas. Microsoft doesn't.

When you think about the vast resources MS has, compare that to Apple's resources, Windows just becomes a joke compared to OS X. With the weight MS has behind it, OS X should never in any universe be competetive with Windows, but it is...it's even better (by that I mean better implemented).

I use Windows every day in my lab. It's apparent that you (MorganX) don't have a balanced Mac/Windows daily routine, so that gives your comments on current OS X developments vs. XP/Longhorn less credibility (nothing personal, it's just a fact). I wouldn't presume to go into a Longhorn forum and talk about why Tiger is better than Longhorn.

Freg3000
Jul 1, 2004, 04:25 PM
Comparing Expose to Windows' tile/cascade feature brings one word to mind: desperation.

It's a desperate comparison.

From your profile I see that you're (MorganX) not running Panther, so I assume you may have seen Expose in a store, maybe in a demo or something somewhere, but you certainly don't use Expose on a daily basis, and you're not intimately familiar with its functionality. Your apparent lack of experience with Expose explains your comparison to Windows' tile/cascade. About the only thing they have in common is that all open windows can be revealed. Expose is much more. It organizes, classifies, and manages all open windows dynamically. The user can effortlessly organize windows in many different ways, all with very little input.

It's pointless to argue about "features", or "things that my OS can do". If you look at it like that, there's very little difference between OS X and Windows. And as time goes by and OSs become more advanced, there will probably be even fewer "differences". What DOES differ is HOW these features are implemented. That is where OS X and Windows differ dramatically. Apple has an undeniable talent for novel implementation of old or even contemporary ideas. Microsoft doesn't.

When you think about the vast resources MS has, compare that to Apple's resources, Windows just becomes a joke compared to OS X. With the weight MS has behind it, OS X should never in any universe be competetive with Windows, but it is...it's even better (by that I mean better implemented).

I use Windows every day in my lab. It's apparent that you (MorganX) don't have a balanced Mac/Windows daily routine, so that gives your comments on current OS X developments vs. XP/Longhorn less credibility (nothing personal, it's just a fact). I wouldn't presume to go into a Longhorn forum and talk about why Tiger is better than Longhorn.

There was a farmer who had a dog and Bingo was his name-o.

B-I-N-G-O!

You hit the nail on the head, and saved me a lot of time from having to write the same thing. :D

MorganX
Jul 1, 2004, 06:41 PM
Comparing Expose to Windows' tile/cascade feature brings one word to mind: desperation.

It's a desperate comparison.

That's a great Apple love letter. All adjectives and no substance.

Now why don't you tell me specifically what technical abilities of Expose aren't catch-up to the Windows management Windows has had for years in Tile/Cascade/Minimize/Show Desktop.

Mac users see Expose as something revolutionary because they've had a single focus UI until recently. Windows users have never had unmanageable Window clutter or difficulty finding and managing active Windows.

Now, factually speaking, reply to my comparison. Ok, it's desperate, now how so? Just commenting that Expose is so much more is not good enough. How is it "so much more." You went on and on about Apple's "undeniable talent and all this other BS," now go ahead and tell me about the revolutionary features and functionality of Expose as it relates to the debate I was having with Mac-expert. I'm waiting. And you're right, I sold my iMac a month before Panther was released. But I didn't need to use Expose more than once to get a pretty damn good idea about what it does. Now enlighten me on what I'm missing from lack of daily use to realize the revolutionary benefits of basic Multiple Window Management that only Apple has been lacking the past 10 years or so.

Edit: You do know every window has a it's own title, the active Window is always highlighted in the title bar and on the taskbar. Things of this nature Expose adds to OS X are just routine, housekeeping that only Mac OS' have lacked until recently.

whooleytoo
Jul 1, 2004, 06:48 PM
That's a great Apple Love/MS hate letter. All adjectives and not substance.

Now why don't you tell me specifically what technical abilities of Expose aren't catch-up to the Windows management Windows has had for years in Tile/Cascade/Minimize/Show Desktop.


After doing a Show Desktop in Windows, how do you restore all windows to their original positions with one button click?

How do you do a Show Desktop, then drag from the desktop to one of the windows you just hid?

How do you 'untile' windows from their tiled positions back to their original locations?

How do you tile all windows in all applications with one button press?

etc..etc..

MorganX
Jul 1, 2004, 07:04 PM
>>After doing a Show Desktop in Windows, how do you restore all windows to their original positions with one button click<<

Right Click > Show Open Windows - After you Show Desktop, it becomes, Show Open Windows. Since most of the time using a Mac OS you have to consume time with shortcuts keys you can use WindowsKey-D. It's a show desktop/open windows toggle. All Windows are restored to their original positions.

>>How do you do a Show Desktop, then drag from the desktop to one of the windows you just hid?<<

Drag the item to the application button on the taskbar and hover. The Folder or Application will pop open, Drop. If it is a group of apps, say 10 Explorer Folders, hover over the group button, the button will popup a list of all the grouped folders, hover over the one you want it will open on the desktop, Drop.

I will concede the group functionality was not present pre-XP.

>>How do you 'untile' windows from their tiled positions back to their original locations?<<

Right Click > Undo Tile - Undo Tile only becomes availabe after you have done a tile.

>>How do you tile all windows in all applications with one button press?<<

Right Click > Tile Horizontally or Vertically.

Edit: One note here, all child Windows are contained in a parent Window. So, you don't have to worry about all the floating palettes in Photoshop and Office. They will be managed in the parent Window. Adobe is the exception. They leave the Tool palette hanging as a separate entity. All other palettes are well behaved.

None of that is particularly exciting. It's basic Window management. Until OS X, maybe Mac OS didn't need it. Expose does do it's window management with nice effects though. After this post, let's just end it at that.

whooleytoo
Jul 1, 2004, 07:28 PM
Thanks MorganX, I actually wasn't aware of many of those!

Not that I'm trying to weasel out of my original point, but the Windows implementations of the same concepts is considerably more cumbersome in my opinion (more keypresses/clicks required to perform the same operations). Plus, the way Windows tiles windows makes it nigh on useless for window identification when lots of windows are open - you're left with little more than a menubar and scrollbars for each window. And I don't know how many of these options would be available if you're using an app which has the taskbar hidden (you'd be required to switch out of the app to use these..)

Finicky points perhaps, but the devil's in the details.. ;)

jakemikey
Jul 1, 2004, 08:51 PM
Now why don't you tell me specifically what technical abilities of Expose aren't catch-up to the Windows management Windows has had for years in Tile/Cascade/Minimize/Show Desktop.


I was referring specifically to how Expose handles grouping by applications. Sure, both Windows and OS X can do "all or nothing"-type window management, but as far as I know, tile can't dynamically display windows according to app and then fluidly cycle to the next app. I hit F10, it shows all open Word docs, nothing else. I hit command +` and it cycles through all open apps, each time showing only that app's windows (scaled, not cropped as in tile), Photoshop, Safari, Finder, etc. Sure, Windows has contextual menus than can do a lot of what Expose does, but there's no unified concept that was designed to handle as many scenarios as Expose, and that do it as well.

This whole exchange just supports my main point. It's pointless for us to argue about features (I say, "Expose does this very well" you say, "well I can kinda do the same thing in Windows with this command..." I say, "okay, but how about this..." and it just goes on). They do a lot of the same things. The point is implementation. Expose is fluid. It's like comparing an iPod to one of the other various and sundry MP3 players out there. They do the same thing, but how many people lust after a Dell Jukebox?

Now with all that said, I admit pre-Panther OS X was in a world of hurt as far as window management goes.


Have a great 4th of July weekend, everybody!!!

broken_keyboard
Jul 2, 2004, 08:39 AM
- Core Image/Video: Wow. I've never know a company to put this much in an API. This should make the Mac the platform of choice for video app writers. If there is such as thing as a cool API, this is it :-)

- Spotlight search: I don't know what else you could ask for in a local search. Looks really good. If they could get it to work across the corporate network it could be a killer app to get Macs in the workplace.

- Safari RSS: Maybe a bit ahead of it's time. Because at this point in time of a lot of sites keep their HTML more up to date than their RSS (they are slack) so services that scrape HTML such as news.google.com will give better results.

- Automater: People have been trying to get visual scripting right for a long time. I don't know whether they have done it, I would have to try it out for myself to know.

- iChat AV: Improved video quality and big conferencing are very cool. If only this great app was compatible with the Microsoft chat network.

Mac-Xpert
Jul 2, 2004, 08:51 AM
That's the point. What is the point? Longhorn is in people's and developers hands. But Apple may release first. Hmmm. This means what to whom?
Obviously only released systems count. The Tiger preview is also in developers (that's peoples) hands by your reasoning, so again your argument is moot.

I've owned several Macs, and started on Apples. I can tell you I really don't follow you here. The ability to manages open Windows has been one of the biggest benefits of Windows over the years. You have to windows open, position them next to each other and drag and drop. Want it perfect, use tile vertically, or horizontally for spreadsheets and drag and drop. See pics.
All right I have to confess that I don't use XP that much. So you’re right that in certain applications you can put documents side by side. BUT Windows is not very consistent at it. You might like to try the same thing in Excel. I bring this up because I regularly had difficulties using Excel on the PC and not being able to open more than one window at a time. You can do this easily with the Mac version. It appears that you have to re-launch excel to open another window. You can't simply open a new document within the same application, while having another one open. It works differently in other apps like Word. That's not very intuitive or consistent. Anyway I still don't see the benefit of having the document window with the whole menu bar and panels all in one window. It only takes up unnecessary screen space. I only find it confusing and therefore don't see any benefit of MDI. Also the window cascading feature of XP still can't touch the convenience of seeing the content of each open window with one keystroke. Imagine you have 20 Photoshop images open and you want to look at them all at ones while being able to go back to the one you are working in. The cascading/tile feature of XP won't be any good for that. Expose will allow you to do just that with one keystroke. Another thing with MDI is that many (less experienced I guess) users have the tendency to close the applications by clicking on the X symbol of the window while the really only want to close the document. I see my fellow co-workers on PC's doing this all the time when they for instance open a PDF file in Acrobat and then want to close it to open another one. They close Acrobat instead of just the PDF file. So they’re constantly restarting Acrobat to look at different PDF's. Now you might say that this is because they don't use the system in the right way, but what I'm saying is that the MDI system is just not intuitive, otherwise these sort of things wouldn't happen in the first place.
(Automator) It's useful, slick, a great new implementation of existing technology. All these existing pieces are now infinitely more useful to non-programmers and programmers alike. So if we agree on that, why does it appear we're arguing?I guess we aren't on that point.

>>The dock, was already available in Next step, long before windows. Protected memory (and things like Pre-emptive multitasking) where already available in unix.<<

No argument here. But that won't stop Steve Jobs from claiming to be the first to have them.Hmm. Next was also owned/started by Steve Jobs, so one might say he was the first for some of these things after all.

>>The finder was already available in 1984.<<

But it didn't begin to mimic Windows Explorer/My Computer until OS X.

>>And Explorer was based on Netscape Navigator. So I don't see your point here.<<

Windows Explorer is GUI presentation of the root-file tree metaphor extended to all logical system resources as well as physical (device manager.)
First of all I don't really like the more Explorer like column view option in the finder of Mac-Os-X and prefer the Os-9 like list view style. That being said I still don't think apple took it from Microsoft. Instead I again have to point to NextStep. Here is a link (http://www120.pair.com/mccarthy/nextstep/intro.htmld/Workspace.html) you might like to check out to learn more about NextStep which formed the base for the current Mac-Os-X.

The MacOS came before Windows, they both got jump started by PARC. It's not my intended implication that Windows has been the inspiration for Mac OS. In response to Jobs' outlandishness, I do imply that OS X has been borrowing more from Windows of late. And the whole "Copy this Redmond" theme of WWDC makes Apple look foolish to most people in IT. Maybe Steve doesn't know, Redomond doesn't care what he says. It is more insulting to potential Apple using PC People.
But Apple didn't copy/borrow quite as much from XP as you seem to imply in your previous posts. I do agree that it is not too smart to say things like "Copy this Redmond"

>>BTW, why do you spend so much time on a Apple board if you like XP so much? Doesn't make sense to me.<<

That depends, when you say Apple do you me Mac platform or Apple Inc. You can like one without the other, nothing will happen to you. Seriously though, why do I have to dislike XP to own or like a lot of things about Macintosh? Do you know that most 30-somethings in the IT profession started on Apple II's? And Vic 20s, Trash-80s, and Timex Sinclairs.
I mean on a web forum dedicated to Apple and to the Macintosh. In other words this forum. I don't say you have to dislike XP at all. But it just seems funny to me that you come out here to criticize Mac-OS-X and state somewhat unfounded claims that Apple borrows their ideas from Microsoft, and claiming you like XP better. You won't find me posting 800+ messages on a XP/Microsoft dedicated forum saying how much better Mac-OS-X is :p

hansen
Jul 2, 2004, 09:00 AM
is it so terrible to be inspired by others? It might be that the MS guys did some useful stuff on their own that Apple can use in OS X. Apple copied electricity from Ørsted with no credits! I mean everything we all do is based on history. Copy/improve is how we move forward.

Mac-Xpert
Jul 2, 2004, 09:13 AM
is it so terrible to be inspired by others? It might be that the MS guys did some useful stuff on their own that Apple can use in OS X. Apple copied electricity from Ørsted with no credits! I mean everything we all do is based on history. Copy/improve is how we move forward.
I agree, there is nothing wrong with being inspired by others. I do however find it annoying when someone (like the way MorganX did) starts to make all sorts of unfounded/incorrect claims that Mac-OS-X in getting it's features from XP. With comments like XP-ish, Finder looking like it's parents are Windows ExplorerThat's just silly and simply not correct as I here above stated.

That's all..

MorganX
Jul 2, 2004, 02:31 PM
>>I mean on a web forum dedicated to Apple and to the Macintosh. In other words this forum. I don't say you have to dislike XP at all. But it just seems funny to me that you come out here to criticize Mac-OS-X<<

Disagreeing about how "revolutionary" certain features are, are not criticizing it. My biggest criticism of Mac OS over the years has been the lack of decent Window management which Expose actually addresses.

>>and state somewhat unfounded claims that Apple borrows their ideas from Microsoft,<<

I think we've pretty much determined, and many before us have as well, that that's a matter of opinion.

>>and claiming you like XP better. <<

I do. I like a lot of things including some Apple products. One thing I don't like is Steve Jobs and his cult. Other than that, Apple is like every other company. I like some things, dislike others. Besides, if it weren't for people like me who like XP (with no regard for whether or not we like Macs as well), who would Mac users have to claim superiority over? And if there's no one to claim superiority over, can you still be superior? :D

MacFan25
Jul 4, 2004, 02:47 PM
I'm really looking forward to Tiger. The new features seem great, and they all seem like things that I will actually use. First, the new video code, H.264 is great. I was really amazed at how much better it helped the videoconference screenshot that is shown on Apple.com. I believe that it is really going to help Quicktime.

Spotlight is one of those features that probably should have been implemented a while back into the OS, but... I think that I will definitley be using this feature a lot. I will probably find myself saving a lot of time from this feature, since I won't have to sort through tons of folders in the Finder anymore.

I believe I will also use Dashboard quite a bit. One of the reasons I don't use Stickies too much, is because I don't want to have to open it up all the time, and then close it. Nor do I want stickies all over my desktop. But if I can just hit a key, and they come up, then that problem will be solved.

It will be interesting to see how much Tiger will cost, and when they will start taking orders. I would say it will be $129 like Panther, which I would be willing to pay for Tiger.

mmmbop
Jul 4, 2004, 04:12 PM
>>Right, they're nowhere to be found. It was Microsoft that copied elements from Mac-OS-X for XP and not the other way around.<<

You mean like taskbar (dock)

Microsoft borrowed the idea for the taskbar from RISC OS, which had it way back in the early nineties.

Rarely is something entirely new found. But Apple above most have a knack for getting the implementation right.