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brad
Jun 28, 2004, 05:07 PM
Hi guys,

Just viewed the 30'' monitor and WOW! i want one. I'm looking at buying a PB but I've noticed the 30'' montior requires a NIVIDA GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL Card to operate. The current range of PB's come with:

12'' PB - NIVIDA GeForce FX G05200
15'' & 17'' PB's - ATI Mobility Radeon 9700

Can anyone tell me what Apple is planning to do with the PB cards and the 30'' monitors?


BRING ON THE G5 PB....!!!

kgarner
Jun 28, 2004, 05:18 PM
I think that for now they are leaving the 30" for the pro desktop line. Unfortunately, it just takes a lot of power to push that many pixels.

ddtlm
Jun 28, 2004, 08:40 PM
kgarner:

Unfortunately, it just takes a lot of power to push that many pixels.
Not really. I run two 1600x1200 screens on my Radeon 8500 fine, and thats a card that looks up to a much-ridiculed GF-5200 in pixel pushing power. This 30" screen only has 20% more pixels than my two 20" screens, any ol card could do it if Apple wanted. But they want people to buy the expensive card.

Rod Rod
Jun 28, 2004, 11:23 PM
kgarner:


Not really. I run two 1600x1200 screens on my Radeon 8500 fine, and thats a card that looks up to a much-ridiculed GF-5200 in pixel pushing power. This 30" screen only has 20% more pixels than my two 20" screens, any ol card could do it if Apple wanted. But they want people to buy the expensive card.

there is a limit to the resolution that can be transmitted through DVI. that's why a different, non-standard double DVI port is necessary. the new nVidia 6800 has two of those ports, so it can drive two 30" ACDs.

Mav451
Jun 29, 2004, 12:01 AM
You make an interesting point. Most video cards (single or dual DVI) will max out @ 2048X1536. The lower-end cards, EVEN nVidia's "lowly" FX 5200 can do that (@ 60Hz); or 85Hz for mid-range cards such as the FX 5700.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=property&catalog=48&propertycodevalue=0,%200,%200,%200,%200,%205971,%200,%200,%200,%200&keywords=&minprice=&maxprice=&mfrcode=0&DEPA=1&Order=price

(as you can see from my search of "2 DVI ports", the 6800 Ultra does not show up, b/c its still pretty much UNAVAILABLE in the OEM/Retail channel). It is actually pretty surprising that Apple would announce its support of the 6800 + 30" Apple Display when hardly any PC users have a 6800 in their hands!

It is only when you get to the $600+ Quadro FX600 that there exists a dual-DVI card that even supports the 30" resolution:
Max Resolution@32bit Color: 3840x2400

Apparently the 30" would have required a pro-card to run it anyway, so why not go with the bleeding edge PC GAMING video card?

*correction, not even a PC user should have a 6800 Ultra yet*
An example for an PC gaming online shop:

http://www.gameve.com/gve/store/productdetails.aspx?sku=VC-AOPEN-6800U
This item will be released on 7/14/2004

Mudbug
Jun 29, 2004, 12:10 AM
I think a more pressing question is if there's any difference between the Mac version of a 6800 Ultra and a PC version of the same card. Even if as little as a flash of the ROM on the card to change it over might be enticing enough a proposition for someone to try to save $100 or so...

Sun Baked
Jun 29, 2004, 12:32 AM
(as you can see from my search of "2 DVI ports", the 6800 Ultra does not show up, b/c its still pretty much UNAVAILABLE in the OEM/Retail channel). It is actually pretty surprising that Apple would announce its support of the 6800 + 30" Apple Display when hardly any PC users have a 6800 in their hands!In that case it's nice that we're starting to reap the rewards of killing ADC so quick. :D

Otherwise we would be looking at this as some form of ADC card in a year. :(

Mav451
Jun 29, 2004, 12:49 AM
In that case it's nice that we're starting to reap the rewards of killing ADC so quick. :D

Otherwise we would be looking at this as some form of ADC card in a year. :(

I tried to add the 6800 Ultra from Apple.com, and this is what I got for the estimated shipping date:

Late August

:(

Well having a high, HIGH end PC gaming Video card being only one month late from the general PC masses is quite a feat in its own...this is of course assuming prompt shipping on those estimate dates -_-.

ddtlm
Jun 29, 2004, 02:35 AM
Rod Rod:

Yeah that's pretty much my point. The only thing standing between a GF-5200 and the 30" display is the type of DVI port, and seems like that barrier is put in place primarily to make customers spend the extra cash. Even cheap cards can push the pixels, nVidia and/or Apple just don't want to let the cheap card do it. The actual cost of supporting the second link has got to be near zero.

Rod Rod
Jun 29, 2004, 02:52 AM
well ddtlm, on the PC side they've been connecting multiple DVI inputs to super-high-end flat panels for a while. Apple probably wanted a single-connection solution, so it required a new type of DVI. apparently nVidia was faster out of the gate than ATI in offering a capable card.

maybe someone will come up with a two-into-one solution for the 5200 and other cards, where you have two DVI inputs fusing into a single, dual link DVI interface, and therefore run a single 30" ACD.

then someone else might take it one step further, and take the PCI Radeon 9200 and connect it to the phantom device described above to drive a second 30" ACD.

maybe Gefen, Griffin, Belkin or Dr. Bott will take care of this.

mikeyredk
Jun 29, 2004, 09:48 AM
can't we just flash the firmware of the pc version of the 6800 and use in the mac?

Sabbath
Jun 29, 2004, 11:38 AM
In that case it's nice that we're starting to reap the rewards of killing ADC so quick. :D

Otherwise we would be looking at this as some form of ADC card in a year. :(

But these 6800 are again not using the standard connector, so essentially the situation with the 30" display is still similar to the ADC problem.

I think one of the problems with using a dual head card with two connectors is you need to syncronise the output, I'm not sure how hard that is but it seems alienware and nvidia have had to work on some pretty complex systems to get two cards displaying to a single monitor.

wdlove
Jun 29, 2004, 11:50 AM
I think a more pressing question is if there's any difference between the Mac version of a 6800 Ultra and a PC version of the same card. Even if as little as a flash of the ROM on the card to change it over might be enticing enough a proposition for someone to try to save $100 or so...

IMHO think that the Mac version will be a lot better. It will also have OS X to improve it's quality of operation.

Grimace
Jun 29, 2004, 12:12 PM
I'm confused about the Gforce card. Does "Dual-link" mean that the new 30" uses both DVI outs?
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/572/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/m9593ga_125.jpg

This blurb from Apple's description is confusing:
The 30-inch Cinema HD Display* requires the next level of DVI connectivity dual link to drive the massive amount of pixels to the screen.... Even better, it can drive two 30-inch Apple Cinema HD Displays*, giving you the ultimate creative canvas.

Is this a new high-output, single DVI connector? Or do you use both (dual) DVI outs to drive a 30" monitor? If it is the latter - you would need two of these cards to drive two 30" monitors.

takao
Jun 29, 2004, 12:22 PM
I'm confused about the Gforce card. Does "Dual-link" mean that the new 30" uses both DVI outs?

This blurb from Apple's description is confusing:
The 30-inch Cinema HD Display* requires the next level of DVI connectivity dual link to drive the massive amount of pixels to the screen.... Even better, it can drive two 30-inch Apple Cinema HD Displays*, giving you the ultimate creative canvas.

Is this a new high-output, single DVI connector? Or do you use both (dual) DVI outs to drive a 30" monitor? If it is the latter - you would need two of these cards to drive two 30" monitors.

high output single connector
the new 6800 geforce card has _two_ _dual link_ dvi connectors
dual link is brand new i guess only a few _pro_ cards have it at the moment outside of the 6800...

to sum it up once and for all:
1 6800 gforce card = 2 dual-link ports = 2 30" screens

Grimace
Jun 29, 2004, 12:24 PM
high output single connector
the new 6800 geforce card has _two_ _dual link_ dvi connectors
dual link is brand new i guess only a few _pro_ cards have it at the moment outside of the 6800...

to sum it up once and for all:
1 6800 gforce card = 2 dual-link ports = 2 30" screens

Gotcha - so Apple used another confusing hardware title. Dual-link (when shown with two DVI ports) *might* confuse a few people. DVI-2 would have been sufficient - like USB2. ADC (monitor connector) and ADC Apple developer connection) have confused a lot of people I know.

SkAlex
Jun 29, 2004, 12:35 PM
to sum it up once and for all:
1 6800 gforce card = 2 dual-link ports = 2 30" screens

6800+30"+30" = $7,197.00 :eek: :eek: :eek:

takao
Jun 29, 2004, 12:53 PM
6800+30"+30" = $7,197.00 :eek: :eek: :eek:
thats 1200 less than you would pay for one of that screens....
http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=-840&langId=-1&partNumber=9503DG5&storeId=1

and i dont want to know how much the fitting computer and graphics card for that beast would cost :eek:

3840x2400 resolution on a 22.2" screen
compared to 2560 x 1600 on the 30" apple screen

i hope the ones who buy _those_ screens have really good eyes

edit: 9,2 million pixels ...thats perhaps more than 1 connector per screen ;)

javabear90
Jun 29, 2004, 01:10 PM
thats 1200 less than you would pay for one of that screens....
http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=-840&langId=-1&partNumber=9503DG5&storeId=1

and i dont want to know how much the fitting computer and graphics card for that beast would cost :eek:

3840x2400 resolution on a 22.2" screen
compared to 2560 x 1600 on the 30" apple screen

i hope the ones who buy _those_ screens have really good eyes

edit: 9,2 million pixels ...thats perhaps more than 1 connector per screen ;)

I dunno which I would rather have, that, or 2 30 inchers.... mmm.... drool..... or even better 2 of those screens.... mmmm..... drool.... 18 million pixels... drool......

zap **** computer gets fried*****

wdlove
Jun 29, 2004, 01:45 PM
My wife thinks that the 30" will make a great Home Entertainment Center. A movie on that should be awesome. :D

Sun Baked
Jun 29, 2004, 02:25 PM
But these 6800 are again not using the standard connector, so essentially the situation with the 30" display is still similar to the ADC problem.

I think one of the problems with using a dual head card with two connectors is you need to syncronise the output, I'm not sure how hard that is but it seems alienware and nvidia have had to work on some pretty complex systems to get two cards displaying to a single monitor.Actually it looks like it is part of the original standard... though all they have was info for DVI 1.0 on the organizations site.
Terms recognized by the DVI 1.0 Specification:

DVI-D DVI-DDigital Only
DVI-I DVI-IDigital and Analog
Dual Link Dual Link DVI supports 2x165 MHz (2048x1536 at 60 Hz, 1920x1080 at 85 Hz). A dual link implementation utilizes all 24 of the available pins.
Single Link Single Link DVI supports a maximum bandwidth of 165 MHz (1920x1080 at 60 Hz, 1280x1024 at 85Hz). A single link implementation utilizes 12 of the 24 available pins.So it looks like a single connector used half the pins and the double used them all.

ddtlm
Jun 29, 2004, 02:27 PM
Rod Rod:

well ddtlm, on the PC side they've been connecting multiple DVI inputs to super-high-end flat panels for a while. Apple probably wanted a single-connection solution, so it required a new type of DVI. apparently nVidia was faster out of the gate than ATI in offering a capable card.
Dual-link DVI isn't new at all, there have been super high end LCD's out there using 2 dual-link DVI connections for a while, probably more than a year. Apple is the first I know of to use a single dual-link DVI to drive a screen.

I think a lot of people are still confused about dual-link vs dual port. Not the same.

Rod Rod
Jun 29, 2004, 03:14 PM
Rod Rod:


Dual-link DVI isn't new at all, there have been super high end LCD's out there using 2 dual-link DVI connections for a while, probably more than a year. Apple is the first I know of to use a single dual-link DVI to drive a screen.

I think a lot of people are still confused about dual-link vs dual port. Not the same.

yup you're right, thanks for clearing it up. so it's a standard, but not a commonly implemented standard, as you and Sun Baked point out.

BrianKonarsMac
Jun 30, 2004, 02:37 PM
dual link DVI is not propietary, it's an industry standard. if it were called dvi 2.0, i'm sure apple would have used that name, but it's referred to as dual link, so rather than adding a new name, they went with what it is called, to ironically avoid confusion (it seems to have created more).

anyways, i don't think any of apple's previous cards have the ability to run the 30" satisfactorily, you'd most likely be waiting a few seconds every time you moved a window just for the screen to redraw. i'm sure you could "hack" it, but it will be a less than impressive result, as well as an expensive trial and error test.