PDA

View Full Version : Hmmm...was it Legal?




skunk
Jul 4, 2004, 08:15 PM
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=537972

Legality of Iraq occupation 'flawed'

By Marie Woolf, Chief Political Correspondent

05 July 2004


The senior Foreign Office lawyer who resigned after ministers ignored her advice that the war in Iraq was illegal has issued a damning legal critique of the occupation, claiming that the alleged abuse of prisoners "could amount to war crimes".

In her first newspaper interview since her resignation, Elizabeth Wilmshurst, the former deputy legal adviser to the Foreign Office, said that the basis for going to war should always be based on "facts" rather than an "assertion" about an "imminent threat". Ms Wilmshurst said "it could be alleged that the use of force in Iraq was aggression" while "the kinds of abusive treatment of Iraqi prisoners that have been alleged could amount to war crimes".

Her comments came as Sir Jeremy Greenstock, Britain's former envoy to Iraq, made the clearest admission yet that intelligence that Saddam Hussein had stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons was wrong. He said: "We were wrong on the stockpiles, we were right about the intention."

Ms Wilmshurst expressed concern about the size of the US civilian presence in Iraq. She also said she was worried about the lack of legal protection for Iraqis if they were harmed by allied troops or civilian contractors, including private security guards. She said it was "worrying" that the occupying powers had given immunity to US and British civilians which was "very, very wide" and "not what you would expect". They would be protected from prosecution even if they seriously injured Iraqi women and children.

She said the Bush administration's "war on terror" was legal "nonsense" - conferring no more powers on the US to detain prisoners than "the war against obesity" - and President Bush's policy of pre-emptive self-defence was illegal under international law.

Ms Wilmshurst, who is now head of the international law programme at the think-tank Chatham House, also raised questions about the powers of detention the Americans have in Iraq and Guantanamo Bay. She said it violated the Geneva Conventions to deny inmates in Guantanamo Bay a formal assessment of their status.

Although she said she would not discuss the advice she gave to ministers, she is understood to have told them that British participation in the invasion of Iraq would flout international law. She said there were deep concerns among international lawyers about the implications of the war on terror, which may be used as an excuse to hold prisoners indefinitely. "This rather extraordinary war against terror, which is a phrase that all lawyers hate ... is not really a 'war', a conflict against terror, any more than the war against obesity means that you can detain people," she said.

In a further side-swipe at American foreign policy she said President Bush's policy of pre-emptive self-defence, which would allow the US to invade any country it thought was a threat, was illegal under international law. "What people are worried about is just assertions that there is an imminent threat," she said.
Nicely put, I think.



Neserk
Jul 4, 2004, 08:27 PM
HA! I've said the whole time Bush should be charged with war crimes!

Sun Baked
Jul 4, 2004, 08:30 PM
No comment on the legality.

It was definitely a poorly marketed war.

If the war was a spiffy new food product that tasted great and was marketed this way, nobody would have bought it because they were all told it tasted like crap.

No effort to make this action look palatable, and it's way too late to change anybody's mind.

There were reasons to "go in"... but none of them were voiced prior to actually going in. :rolleyes:

I'd definitely place this marketing fiasco right up there with "New Coke"

themadchemist
Jul 4, 2004, 10:22 PM
No comment on the legality.

It was definitely a poorly marketed war.

If the war was a spiffy new food product that tasted great and was marketed this way, nobody would have bought it because they were all told it tasted like crap.

No effort to make this action look palatable, and it's way too late to change anybody's mind.

There were reasons to "go in"... but none of them were voiced prior to actually going in. :rolleyes:

I'd definitely place this marketing fiasco right up there with "New Coke"

I think that by dismissing the administration's mistakes as merely poor marketing, one dangerously downplays the problematic nature of this military effort. While there were reasons for regime change, there wasn't as much evidence to argue that this was the best way to effect it.

There could have been other, less extreme actions taken to topple the Hussein regime. Such ways might have preserved much of the essential infrastructure of the country, which would have made the transition to a new government all the easier.

Sun Baked
Jul 5, 2004, 12:14 AM
I think that by dismissing the administration's mistakes as merely poor marketing, one dangerously downplays the problematic nature of this military effort. While there were reasons for regime change, there wasn't as much evidence to argue that this was the best way to effect it.

There could have been other, less extreme actions taken to topple the Hussein regime. Such ways might have preserved much of the essential infrastructure of the country, which would have made the transition to a new government all the easier.The poor marketing by Bush resulted in the lack of support from the rest of the world, that lack of support and involvement meant few countries providing oversight & planning during key phases before, during, and after the first troops hit the ground.

Bush didn't even try sell his war plan to the rest of the world when people and countries didn't like the direction things were heading, and it basically went downhill from there. :(

themadchemist
Jul 5, 2004, 12:22 AM
Bush didn't even try sell his war plan to the rest of the world when people and countries didn't like the direction things were heading, and it basically went downhill from there. :(

Rather, he tried and failed because of a lack of [real] evidence. The US went to great lengths to provide the world with an inaccurate depiction of Iraq to justify war and find support. We didn't get any because people weren't impressed with the content, as opposed to the packaging.

I still say that your argument ignores flaws with the plan itself by focusing on flaws with the sale of the plan.

The problem is, the plan didn't sell because it wasn't worth buying.

Sun Baked
Jul 5, 2004, 12:45 AM
Rather, he tried and failed because of a lack of [real] evidence. The US went to great lengths to provide the world with an inaccurate depiction of Iraq to justify war and find support. We didn't get any because people weren't impressed with the content, as opposed to the packaging.

I still say that your argument ignores flaws with the plan itself by focusing on flaws with the sale of the plan.

The problem is, the plan didn't sell because it wasn't worth buying.He never tried to sell any other reason, there were several other ideas he "could" have sold -- but he never tried, at least I saw no overt signs that he was trying.

The idiot felt committed to "he has WMDs" for whatever reason, and you cannot fight these battles without selling them to the rest of the world.

And you can "sell" crap that ain't worth buying, heck you can sell rocks (Pet Rocks) if you really try.

Basically, my saying this is a "poor marketing effort" is Bush's complete lack of trying "another method" to sell his crappy product to the rest of the world.

Neserk
Jul 5, 2004, 01:11 PM
He just said: You aren't patriotic if you don't support me!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

What is scary is how many people bought it!!

Thankfully American's are fickle and they aren't buying it anymore :D

Chip NoVaMac
Jul 6, 2004, 07:34 AM
Many people forget that a few days before the 'war', there was an effort to have Saddam seek exile to another country. Bush did not want it, he wanted the blood of Saddam as the man "that tried to kill my dad".

The shame of it is that Bush as the Commander In Chief will never be held accountable to the world and the US for his actions.

Neserk
Jul 6, 2004, 11:56 AM
Many people forget that a few days before the 'war', there was an effort to have Saddam seek exile to another country. Bush did not want it, he wanted the blood of Saddam as the man "that tried to kill my dad".

The shame of it is that Bush as the Commander In Chief will never be held accountable to the world and the US for his actions.

I had completely forgotten that!