Call me a party pooper or a buzzkill but I can’t get enthusiastic about the 4th anymo

[SiliconAddict]

I can't get into the mood. This day is suppose to be dedicated to celebrate our freedom and yet while this day goes on we have a ****tard in office, along with his cohorts, that has done more to try and take away our rights then just about any other president. My history of the presidencies pre George the second is somewhat limited so I might be off on that sentiment. Anyone?

My point being the 4th right now is tainted for me. I can not and will not “get into the spirit”. Because right now the spirit is gagged, bound, and chucked into a cell in Guantanamo bay along with the other people who’s rights are being squashed into the dirt like cattle. Or the spirit is in Iraq at Abu Ghraib being sexually assaulted. Or the spirit is one of the countless innocent people that have died in the war in Iraq to find those WMD. Any day now George.

[Neserk]

I hear ya. I don't particularly want to go to the fireworks but I'm being out-voted.

[Sun Baked]

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11013&stc=1

Next thing you know we'll have "Bush invaded the North Pole and overthrew Santa" t-shirts.

[jsw]

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11013&stc=1

Next thing you know we'll have "Bush invaded the North Pole and overthrew Santa" t-shirts.

Well, that fat bastard wears a red coat, which brings up memories of both the commies and, of course, the British. And he gives toys away. That's too Democrat. So, if we haven't done it already (won't know for six months), I'm sure that such an invasion is already in the works.

And I'm not is a fantastic mood for the 4th as well, as it seems we've forgotten our roots. Well, that and the fact that I'm a bit tired of fireworks and have been ever since late '80s Macs had them as their seemingly sole screen saver. Thank God for Flying Toasters...

[latergator116]

I hear ya SiliconAddict. Also, I am so tried of the fireworks because people have already been setting them off for weeks.

[Neserk]

I went I'm back. Saw some I'd never seen before. Wahoo. I hate crowds :mad:

[stoid]

Spent my Independence Day 9 hours at my summer job from college. Not what I call independence. The best part is that tomorrow iis the official holiday, so I didn't even get any bonus from blowing my whole day on that stupid place. GRRR. :mad:

[Chip NoVaMac]

I understand. And it is not just Bush that has caused it for me.

The whole political process is down the drain.

The feeling of coming together in the days and weeks following 9-11 were too fleeting. Most don't probably appreciate what we were supposed to be celebrating on the 4th.

[usmcdiorio]

I can't get into the mood. This day is suppose to be dedicated to celebrate our freedom and yet while this day goes on we have a ****tard in office, along with his cohorts, that has done more to try and take away our rights then just about any other president. My history of the presidencies pre George the second is somewhat limited so I might be off on that sentiment. Anyone?

My point being the 4th right now is tainted for me. I can not and will not “get into the spirit”. Because right now the spirit is gagged, bound, and chucked into a cell in Guantanamo bay along with the other people who’s rights are being squashed into the dirt like cattle. Or the spirit is in Iraq at Abu Ghraib being sexually assaulted. Or the spirit is one of the countless innocent people that have died in the war in Iraq to find those WMD. Any day now George.


Why don't you just come out and say bastard? You liberals are anti-censorship right? ;)

Regardless of the current political situation, the fourth of July should be a day when all Americans, regardless of party affiliation should be proud. On the fourth, we commemerate an event which established a country whose unending quest for liberty and freedom has set it apart from other countries in the world. America is a country that allows people of opposing views to exist. Now is a particularly trying time, but the worst thing someone can do is to give up on the country that has done so much for so many. True, the Abu Ghraib prison scandel was a black mark, but I would argue that it did have positive affects in that the detention system in Iraq was reviewed with planned revisions. Crawling in a corner and whining about a problem isn't any way to solve it.

[skunk]

Regardless of the current political situation, the fourth of July should be a day when all Americans, regardless of party affiliation should be proud. On the fourth, we commemerate an event which established a country whose unending quest for liberty and freedom has set it apart from other countries in the world. America is a country that allows people of opposing views to exist.
ROFLMAO! Great satire! Thanks for the laugh.

[zimv20]

America is a country that allows people of opposing views to exist.
I respectfully offer my opinion that Moore is a extreme left anti-American boardline traitor that needs to be largely ignored.
ahhhhh, sweet hypocrisy. exactly what I celebrated on the 4th.

[LethalWolfe]

The 4th is a celebration of the birth of America. Not a celebration of it's current state. I think it is a good time to look at the purposes and ideals that created this nation and compared them what's going on today. Where are are we, as a nation, and where should we be. I think it is also a good day to put politics aside and enjoy each other as Americans. We spend so much time battleing over our differences we could at least spend one day celebrating what we have in common.

Becoming apathetic and/or jaded fixes nothing and, if anything, ensures that things will never change. At least not in the way you want them to. Embrace the challenges that lie ahead. Nothing worth having was ever easily gotten.


Lethal

[mouchoir]

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11013&stc=1

Next thing you know we'll have "Bush invaded the North Pole and overthrew Santa" t-shirts.


'so he could tap into the artic oil reserve'

or

'because of santa keeping WMD's under wrap :eek: '

[mouchoir]

I agree about standing by your country in an effort to make it better but...

Regardless of the current political situation, the fourth of July should be a day when all Americans, regardless of party affiliation should be proud. On the fourth, we commemerate an event which established a country whose unending quest for liberty and freedom has set it apart from other countries in the world. What has set it apart from many countries in the world is it's power to impose its will, put trade embargos, topple governments and install US business friendly regimes and generally bully other nations around the world.

America is a country that allows people of opposing views to exist.

As long as they are not french, or dare to speak in opposition of the government's warmongering for fear of being un-patriotic.

And i'm honestly not anti-american. Just not a big fan of your government. Have visited the states 4 times, and met some great people and saw some beautiful places.

Maybe you should celebrate the 4th by looking forwards, and showing the government that you are not afraid of what you believe in.

[skunk]

What has set it apart from many countries in the world is it's power to impose its will, put trade embargos, topple governments and install US business friendly regimes and generally bully other nations around the world.
You missed out the genocide, ethnic cleansing and environmental vandalism.

(Some of my best friends are very depressed Americans...)

[Backtothemac]

You know what I love. I love the fact that those on the far left can look at the world through "liberal glasses". To not want to celebrate the 4th because of the President that is in office is both pathetic and childish. Are you so alienated by this President that you no longer are proud of being American? Are you so damaged by his term in office that you are ashamed?

You speak of the people in Gitmo, and ask for their rights? Are you insane? Those people are some of the most disgusting scum on the planet. So, you want Kalied Shiek Mohamad to have a fair trial by jury in the U.S. court of law? There is such a thing as national security. Things that don't need to be discussed in the public arena. Those people's trial are part of that security.

How are your rights taken away? How many people do you know that have been locked up by the Government? You speak of this President as if he is an evil man. Well, the lies by the left are what is evil. If you are that ashamed, then vote, or leave. But to claim that the Bush administration is responsible for you not wanting to celebrate the 4th. That is just stupid.

[Sayhey]

You know what I love. I love the fact that those on the far left can look at the world through "liberal glasses". To not want to celebrate the 4th because of the President that is in office is both pathetic and childish. Are you so alienated by this President that you no longer are proud of being American? Are you so damaged by his term in office that you are ashamed?

You speak of the people in Gitmo, and ask for their rights? Are you insane? Those people are some of the most disgusting scum on the planet. So, you want Kalied Shiek Mohamad to have a fair trial by jury in the U.S. court of law? There is such a thing as national security. Things that don't need to be discussed in the public arena. Those people's trial are part of that security.

How are your rights taken away? How many people do you know that have been locked up by the Government? You speak of this President as if he is an evil man. Well, the lies by the left are what is evil. If you are that ashamed, then vote, or leave. But to claim that the Bush administration is responsible for you not wanting to celebrate the 4th. That is just stupid.

I know that this may shock you, B2TM, but part of this I sort of agree with.

Not the nonsense about the detainees in Guantanamo, we are stronger as a nation when we uphold the basic human rights of even our worst enemies. Pardon me, but I think that stuff is beyond the pale. It doesn't matter if I've ever met Hamdi or Padilla; their fate and their ability to have their rights respected effects us all.

What I do agree with, at least in part, is that their are many on the Left who let right-wingers illegitimately seize the patriotic symbols of our Nation as the property of the conservatives. As a lifelong lefty, I hate it when we look at the flag, or the Fourth of July, or any other symbol of our country and only see the negative history. Slavery was a horrible stain on our country, but it no longer exists because people fought and died, most under the Stars and Stripes, to rid our nation of its horror. Racism still exists, but many, many people struggled to end Jim Crow and the terror of the KKK and other despicable organizations. On the recent anniversary of Goodman, Schwerner, and Chaney's (http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/243/Three_civil_rights_workers_murdered_in_Miss) deaths it is important to know that these were Americans fighting and giving their lives for freedom. Women are still discriminated against, but women's suffrage and anti-discrimination laws exists because American women and men forced our nation to change. Because of this, I think, we on the political Left make a huge mistake when we hand over to the Right the powerful symbols of our nation. We do this when much of what makes our nation great is because of the changes people who have always been called unpatriotic have brought about. That is true of the revolutionary soldiers at Concord and Lexington. It is true of the Jeffersonians who fought to have a little thing called the Bill of Rights in our Constitution. It is true about the abolitionists who organized and died to end slavery. It is true about the men and women who fought to win trade union rights and bring about an end to child labor, establish a living wage and respect for workers. On and on, it is true of too many people to allow conservatives to rewrite history and forget their sacrifice. Remember all of those people and proudly celebrate the Fourth of July. I do.

[mouchoir]

Sayhey, after reading what you have to say on the matter, I feel I should apologise in part for the one-sidedness of my post in only listing what is bad.

Of course, there are many great things to celebrate too.

I just wanted to point out the huge contradictions in Usmcdiorio's post, and how strange and out of touch they sound in todays climate.

But Backtothemac, seriously – don't buy into the hype. Many of the people held in 'Gitmo' as you call it, are there with no proof of any wrong doing, are not given any sort of trial or sentence, and are tortured.

Recently four British muslims were returned to our country after months of being held and abused and then just let out.

Who really is the disgusting scum in this situation? As a nation, you've lost any moral highground for this and any future 'wars' as long as this human rights abuse continues.

It sets a pretty poor example when Bush takes it as his right to ignore the geneva convention whenever he fancies.

[Backtothemac]

Sayhey, after reading what you have to say on the matter, I feel I should apologise in part for the one-sidedness of my post in only listing what is bad.

Of course, there are many great things to celebrate too.

I just wanted to point out the huge contradictions in Usmcdiorio's post, and how strange and out of touch they sound in todays climate.

But Backtothemac, seriously – don't buy into the hype. Many of the people held in 'Gitmo' as you call it, are there with no proof of any wrong doing, are not given any sort of trial or sentence, and are tortured.

Recently four British muslims were returned to our country after months of being held and abused and then just let out.

Who really is the disgusting scum in this situation? As a nation, you've lost any moral highground for this and any future 'wars' as long as this human rights abuse continues.

It sets a pretty poor example when Bush takes it as his right to ignore the geneva convention whenever he fancies.


Sayhey. You are right. I will agree that they should be afforded a fair trial, but not in a civilian trial. Military tribunals. Now, most of those who are guilty of nothing have been released. However, those there now, are being held because they should be held. As for torture, there is no evidence of that at gitmo at all.

[Sayhey]

Sayhey, after reading what you have to say on the matter, I feel I should apologise in part for the one-sidedness of my post in only listing what is bad.


No apology necessary. I too cannot abide the jingoism that passes as patriotism in my country. The criticisms you and others have raised are legitimate. I've raised them myself on many occasions. My post was directed to my fellow US lefties who too often fall into a trap right-wing politicians set for them and dismiss the great things about our people and our history in their effort to change the direction we are headed as a nation. It is not only disrespectful of those who went before us, but also self defeating because it only serves to marginalize the voices of dissent.

Sayhey. You are right. I will agree that they should be afforded a fair trial, but not in a civilian trial. Military tribunals. Now, most of those who are guilty of nothing have been released. However, those there now, are being held because they should be held. As for torture, there is no evidence of that at gitmo at all.

I don't agree that most of those are guilty of nothing have been released. How can you tell? It seems you are taking this on faith. Nor do I agree that there is no evidence of torture at Guantanamo. Many of the techniques of Abu Ghraib were first tried out on prisoner at Guantanamo and in Afghanistan. I don't necessarily rule out Military trials for some of the prisoners - only that it is not appropriate in all cases.

[blackfox]

Sayhey. You are right. I will agree that they should be afforded a fair trial, but not in a civilian trial. Military tribunals. Now, most of those who are guilty of nothing have been released. However, those there now, are being held because they should be held. As for torture, there is no evidence of that at gitmo at all.
BTTM, The issue of Guantanemo is a tricky one...it is difficult for us to ascertain the current inmates guilt or innocence w/o knowing the charges levied against them.

There is the National Security issue, of course, but there is also the defense of what the US stands for. I still do not understand why we have not released the British Foreign Nationals to the UK, as they are our ally (in general, and in the WOT). Curious decisions like this make me wonder.

As far as their guilt, there is a allegation going around about the US offering a reward in Afghanistan for foreign "terrorists". It has been alledged that the local tribesman in Afghanistan simply captured foreigners and sold them to the US for profit.

As for torture, it has been further alledged that "confessions" of complicity or of "training with Al Qaeda" were tortured out of these captives...the fact that many of the inmates of Guant. have the same, vague, "trained w/ Al Qaeda" charge levied against them could be for this reason. There have also been reports from those inmates either released or given access to lawyers of some levels of what might be considered "torture" going on within GB.

This is only speculation, I admit, we really don't know...there is a BBC Hardball episode featuring a British Lawyer that is worth a watch imo. You may not agree with her assertions, and indeed, no concrete case can be made considering the dearth of evidence and information...but check it out.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/3869743.stm

[Laslo Panaflex]

ahhhhh, sweet hypocrisy. exactly what I celebrated on the 4th.

LOL, that's what I thought, then I realized, maybe he only thinks that way on the 4th of July?

1 out of 364 isn't bad, right?

[usmcdiorio]

ahhhhh, sweet hypocrisy. exactly what I celebrated on the 4th.

You're kidding right? I post that America is a place where opposing opinions can exist, offer my opinion, and that's hypocrisy? Think about that.

Maybe you should celebrate the 4th by looking forwards, and showing the government that you are not afraid of what you believe in.

True, in my opinion, thats part of what the fourth commemerates. No matter how disillusioned various people are with the United States of America, they simply should not overlook the fact that they can do something about it, they do have a voice, their vote.

[zimv20]

You're kidding right? I post that America is a place where opposing opinions can exist, offer my opinion, and that's hypocrisy? Think about that.

per your instruction, i did think about it. in fact, i thought about it harder than you had probably intended. my brow was furrowed, my mood somber. others asked if something was wrong. "no," i said, "it is not wrong. it is simply being considered. carefully."

they nodded and quietly backed away.

i stand by my asssertion of hypocrisy. yes, you did assert that this is a place for dissenting opinions, but, in your signature, you called michael moore a traitor and recommended he be ignored. though you may pay lip service to his "dissent," you clearly do not respect him for doing so. that is what i found hypocritical.

[usmcdiorio]

per your instruction, i did think about it. in fact, i thought about it harder than you had probably intended. my brow was furrowed, my mood somber. others asked if something was wrong. "no," i said, "it is not wrong. it is simply being considered. carefully."

they nodded and quietly backed away.

i stand by my asssertion of hypocrisy. yes, you did assert that this is a place for dissenting opinions, but, in your signature, you called michael moore a traitor and recommended he be ignored. though you may pay lip service to his "dissent," you clearly do not respect him for doing so. that is what i found hypocritical.

I absolutely do not respect him, nor do I have to. Respect is a title not earned lightly, and I will not pretend to do so to appease anyone on this forum. Again, my opinion. Recommended is far from absolute. Anyone with half a brain isn't going to base their opionon on a signature on a mac forum, with any luck they'll get that facts and make their own opinion, which they can then flaunt wherever they want, because this is America.

[blackfox]

Usm,be sure not to trip over that flag you have obviously wrapped yourself in when getting a sandwich...could be messy.

[Ugg]

No offense, Skunk, but I wonder how many hard core right wingers would have sided with the Royalists during the US revolution?

[usmcdiorio]

Usm,be sure not to trip over that flag you have obviously wrapped yourself in when getting a sandwich...could be messy.

You're absolutely right, I am very patriotic and it is disappointing to see the contempt for me and those like me. I apologize, I don't hate America and will not go lightly on those who do. Very soon I will go off to Marine boot camp and serve my country in the best way I know. I love this country, and would gladly die in its defense. If that makes me a criminal, so be it.

[zimv20]

Very soon I will go off to Marine boot camp and serve my country in the best way I know.
unquestioningly?

oh, right -- i have only half a brain.

[Neserk]

You liberals .


That is where I stop reading... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[blackfox]

You're absolutely right, I am very patriotic and it is disappointing to see the contempt for me and those like me. I apologize, I don't hate America and will not go lightly on those who do. Very soon I will go off to Marine boot camp and serve my country in the best way I know. I love this country, and would gladly die in its defense. If that makes me a criminal, so be it.
Alright usm, contrary to what you might like to think, I am a Patriot also, and any contempt I may have for you (which is your views btw)and "those like you" is based on the fact that these views seem to fall into 3 traps...1) Using "patriotism" as a defense against legitimate (and equally patriotic) complaints about the direction this country is going in, and of reasonable alternate viewpoints on how it should proceed. It is an insulting and simplistic position. 2) The seeming inability to handle nuance, reasonable contrary evidence, or what is termed "cognitive dissonance" in forming opinions and assumptions. 3) The implication that your opinion is somehow "morally superior" than alternate viewpoints, or "more indicitive of America". These seems condescending, and more importantly can lead to great evil. Every terrorist, despot and tyrant in the world has done what they have out of a (mistaken) belief that they were "right".

As for you joining the Marines...good luck, and I applaud your decision. I wish you the best. But again, do not imply moral superiority because you have decided to join and we have not...most of us are too old anyway.

And you have a choice whether to be a criminal or not. I would hope that if/when you find yourself in a position where your actions might be criminal, that you would do the moral thing, regardless of the consequences.

Be safe...

[mactastic]

Although I'm pretty sure if Ashcroft heard Apu say this, he would be arrested for terroristic threats...
“Celebrate the independence of your country by blowing up a small part of it.”

The fourth isn't about what's going on today, it's a celebration of what happened over 200 years ago.

Although by looking around you wouldn't know that. You'd think it was a day to celebrate sales and drinking and BBQ. The birth of a nation seems pretty low on the list of Things Being Celebrated by most.

[LethalWolfe]

Although I'm pretty sure if Ashcroft heard Apu say this, he would be arrested for terroristic threats...


The fourth isn't about what's going on today, it's a celebration of what happened over 200 years ago.

Although by looking around you wouldn't know that. You'd think it was a day to celebrate sales and drinking and BBQ. The birth of a nation seems pretty low on the list of Things Being Celebrated by most.


Unfortunetly<sp?> you can say the same about almost any holiday. As long as they get a 3 day weekend most people don't seem to care why they are getting it. :(


Lethal

[vniow]

I thought you left?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=19325

[zimv20]

I thought you left?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=19325
lol!

is that the same guy? i hope i qualify for a hilarious parting shot!

[Neserk]

I thought you left?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=19325

Same IP address, I'm guessing?

Interesting parting post...

[Chip NoVaMac]

For me it is hard to celebrate Independence and freedom, when I do not enjoy the civil and legal rights that most other Americans take for granted. And with each day conservatives (mostly Republicans) try and take even more of my rights.

I am not a terrorist, enemy combatant, or ever contributed to a terrorist organization. My "crime" is who I choose to love and have lived my life with for the last 12 years. The knuckle-heads in the Virginia House have even taken away the ability for my lover and I to enter into legal contracts to try to make up for what everyone else is able to enjoy civilly.

So forgive me if the Fourth is just another day off with pay for me.

[mouchoir]

I thought you left?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=19325


If he is the guy formerly known as 'diorio', after reading that parting shot I can see why he is such a big fan of bush/cheney.

I can't believe I took you 'usmcdiorio' (if that is you?) half seriously after reading that racist, homophobic and quite frankly pathetic little rant.

I seriously wish you no harm in the military, but I also hope you know who the 'enemy' is.

[skunk]

No offense, Skunk, but I wonder how many hard core right wingers would have sided with the Royalists during the US revolution?
Interesting thought. No offence taken, but your "right wing" is not quite the same as our "right wing". Can you identify any "right wingers" among the signatories of the DoI?

[skunk]

I just noticed how apt most of these complaints would be coming from an Iraqi about the Bush administration:

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of [English] Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
I expect some of you will recognize this.

[blackfox]

I just noticed how apt most of these complaints would be coming from an Iraqi about the Bush administration:

[/indent]
I expect some of you will recognize this.
That George was a right bastard...

[skunk]

That George was a right bastard...
Which one?

[blackfox]

Which one?
If I add "King" does that narrow it down?

[skunk]

If I add "King" does that narrow it down?
A bit. :)
This George is no better.

[Chip NoVaMac]

A bit. :)
This George is no better.

Wasn't this one "crowned"?

[Sayhey]

I just noticed how apt most of these complaints would be coming from an Iraqi about the Bush administration:

[/indent]
I expect some of you will recognize this.

It is a horribly sad commentary that a nation born out of the struggle against foreign domination has taken on itself to do the same against a nation that represented no threat to us. I would hope that every American would recognize your quotation, skunk, although I'm sure there are those who don't.

[Chip NoVaMac]

It is a horribly sad commentary that a nation born out of the struggle against foreign domination has taken on itself to do the same against a nation that represented no threat to us. I would hope that every American would recognize your quotation, skunk, although I'm sure there are those who don't.

And that also goes to the heart of the original post.

Most of our Federal Holidays are nothing more than a day off with pay, and sale price on merchandise. I have always loved Apu's comment from the Simpsons.

Flag Day and Martin Luther Kings Birthday seem to be the only Federal Holidays not commercialized.

[Sayhey]

For me it is hard to celebrate Independence and freedom, when I do not enjoy the civil and legal rights that most other Americans take for granted. And with each day conservatives (mostly Republicans) try and take even more of my rights.

I am not a terrorist, enemy combatant, or ever contributed to a terrorist organization. My "crime" is who I choose to love and have lived my life with for the last 12 years. The knuckle-heads in the Virginia House have even taken away the ability for my lover and I to enter into legal contracts to try to make up for what everyone else is able to enjoy civilly.

So forgive me if the Fourth is just another day off with pay for me.

In the 1850s the great American, Frederick Douglass, said this (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2927t.html) :

What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer; a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants, brass fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are, to Him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy -- a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages.There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States, at this very hour.

To those who are denied equality of whatever sort it is easy to see where the attitude of Douglass would ring true. However, he also said this later in his speech:

...Allow me to say, in conclusion, notwithstanding the dark picture I have this day presented, of the state of the nation, I do not despair of this country. There are forces in operation which must inevitably work the downfall of slavery. "The arm of the Lord is not shortened," and the doom of slavery is certain. I, therefore, leave off where I began, with hope. While drawing encouragement from "the Declaration of Independence," the great principles it contains, and the genius of American Institutions, my spirit is also cheered by the obvious tendencies of the age. Nations do not now stand in the same relation to each other that they did ages ago. No nation can now shut itself up from the surrounding world and trot round in the same old path of its fathers without interference. The time was when such could be done. Long established customs of hurtful character could formerly fence themselves in, and do their evil work with social impunity. Knowledge was then confined and enjoyed by the privileged few, and the multitude walked on in mental darkness. But a change has now come over the affairs of mankind. Walled cities and empires have become unfashionable. The arm of commerce has borne away the gates of the strong city. Intelligence is penetrating the darkest corners of the globe....

In short Chip, I can't criticize your view. I can only say that for me the second part of Douglass' speech is also as true today as it was then.

[Chip NoVaMac]

In the 1850s the great American, Frederick Douglass, said this (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2927t.html) :



To those who are denied equality of whatever sort it is easy to see where the attitude of Douglass would ring true. However, he also said this later in his speech:



In short Chip, I can't criticize your view. I can only say that for me the second part of Douglass' speech is also as true today as it was then.

Sayhey, your post brought me to tears this evening on many fronts. Thanks for the research.

My lover of 12 years sleeps tonight in a hospital bed (in Virginia) after he and I spending last night in the ER, not sure of what was wrong with him. It turned out to be his appendix. The hospital could not have been nicer, They cared not for the state law. They only cared for his medical needs and my emotional and moral (as his life partner) needs.

It brought home to us personally how unjust the "system" is. Douglas, IMO was looking at the greater picture. And i have to admire his words given the treatment he and others received, for being black and slaves.

Maybe Teddy (Please note this is the first time that I have ever mentioned his name in this forum, may he forgive me :) ) and I have unrealistic expectations. It took Blacks (or African-Americans if you prefer) two hundred plus years to gain any semblance of equal rights. I don't think that 40 years after the the passage of civil rights amendments for Blacks, that he and I wait that long for ours.

One would had hoped that "separate, but equal" would have died long ago. Though for Teddy and myself we would welcome "separate, but equal".

The last few months have brought us changes that would probably destroy many other couples. I just thank God that he has seen fit to give an option. You see Teddy was laid off three months ago.

I have a home equity loan that allows me to "fund' our living for now (to make up for the income shortfall). Thanks to the laws that don't recognize that all are created equal, he and I have greater expenses.

If we were a "straight couple", his lay-off would have been a "life changing" event. Therefore he could have been added to my insurance. We are not offered that option. So his COBRA payment is $500 a month! He has a job now, but his surgery has pushed back his participation by 2 to 4 weeks.

Add to that, in Virginia they just passed a law that restricts Teddy and I to enter in to any contracts that "mirror" a marriage and its obligations.

Forgive me for being selfish. When Teddy and I went the the ER last night, we had no idea as to what was wrong. It turned out to be the appendix. It could have been an ulcer, or even worse. Between the CAT scan and the surgery, for those that have been through it, the legal requirements make one wonder about coming through it.

Please bear with me, but tody has been emotional on many fronts. As the man I have loved for the past 12 years went through surgery, we had politicians deciding what marriage should be. Teddy and I are not looking for anything special. We are not wanting ANY church to give us recognition. That is their choice.

If I sound bitter it is only because of what he and I face in the next few weeks.

I can only hope that Fredrick Douglas would be proud at my resolve because of my own issues and the nations issues in the last week. My he look down upon me and give me the strength to make it through these rough times.

[blackfox]

Chip, I have trouble responding to your post w/ the appropriate words...they all seem superficial and trite...

Needless to say, I was moved by your post...it creates quite a visceral reality, and one I cannot help but sympathize with.

I am glad that Teddy's condition was relatively minor, and that you were able to afford the appropriate care.

To me it is obvious, even through your written word, of your love and compassion for this man, and I challenge anyone after reading your post to give me any reason why you and your partner should not be given the rights you deserve as an American.

I am afraid what I say here will be woefully incomplete and inadequate in conveying how affected I am, and of my thoughts towards the two of you.

You are a good man Chip...just how good I did not realize until tonight...

May you receive all that you deserve...

Derek.

[zimv20]

best wishes and a speedy recovery to teddy

[Sayhey]

Chip,

my thoughts go out to you and Teddy. Send me a PM and let me know as he gets better. And there is nothing unrealistic about expectations of equality. EVER. I'm glad you liked the Douglass speech, I couldn't read your post and not think of it.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Chip, I have trouble responding to your post w/ the appropriate words...they all seem superficial and trite...

Needless to say, I was moved by your post...it creates quite a visceral reality, and one I cannot help but sympathize with.

I am glad that Teddy's condition was relatively minor, and that you were able to afford the appropriate care.

To me it is obvious, even through your written word, of your love and compassion for this man, and I challenge anyone after reading your post to give me any reason why you and your partner should not be given the rights you deserve as an American.

I am afraid what I say here will be woefully incomplete and inadequate in conveying how affected I am, and of my thoughts towards the two of you.

You are a good man Chip...just how good I did not realize until tonight...

May you receive all that you deserve...

Derek.

Derek,

Thank you.

You and I have not always seen eye to eye on political matters. But I have always welcomed debate with you, whether I agree or not. We both learn in the process.

I shared today, only because sometimes you don't know what you have till it is gone. For Teddy and myself, his is an eye opener for the both of us. And in some way i look at this as a new beginning.

Teddy and I are so very different, it is amazing to me to this day that we still share each morning with each other. In every time of stress there seems to be a time of humor.

Teddy has never liked the idea of surgery. Between the CAT scan and the surgery had to be notified of the risks.

He had made the request for a DNR. He was then given all the paperwork involved for the DNR. He opted not to bother this time around. I never accepted his view on this for both personal and moral issues. He also hates paperwork. :)

Even after 12 years, I'll admit that I probably took things for granted. I am 46 and he is 42. When we began our lives together it was easy to to look to the future. Hell we had so many years ahead. As we get to the age that we need to plan the the unpleasant future we are finding roadblocks.

Thank you for allowing me to share. Not wanting to sound political, sometimes it is matter of putting a face on the subject. I have never been shy telling people here who and what I am. In other posts I have refereed to Teddy as my other half, or my partner. Call it training. To many he is my "roomy".

I only hope that after the last 48 hours that he and I have gone thought, that no one objects to my referring to him by name and importance.

Again, I can not extend enough thanks to you and others that may read my words.

One of my first introductions to Mac Rumors forums was with a member that found he and his wife in turmoil. I am so glad that I have stuck around.

thank you for your thoughts....


Chip and Teddy

[Chip NoVaMac]

Thanks to all.

I am the "activist' in the family :)

LOL, given his "outlook" he will probably be pissed.

But I know that he was concerned how the past two days were affecting me. He is going to be proud that I had the opportunity to have an outlet for all the feelings that have been building up.

Also for the Macer's out there. Teddy is the reason that I am part of the Mac family. He did page layout many years ago on the Mac in Quark.

He gave me hell that I was laying out the ads for my company in MS Publisher..So you all also owe him a big thanks for another Mac user :D

And again many thanks for the kind words. I knew there was a reason that I continued to contribute here. May God bless you all, as He has me over the last couple days.

[blackfox]

And Jef was complaining over the lack of community w/in these forums...

recently, between this thread and the "republicans hate science" thread, I have definitely run the gamut of emotions, and learned much in terms of information, personality and why I post here in the first place.

Cheers to you all...(ok, I have just returned from the bars...but my sentiment is sincere)

[takao]

hmm "national celebration" days...difficult topic...

here it is celebrated very moderatly (compared to the 4th of july)..i don't remember any big fireworks etc. for most people it is just a nice free day.....the only ones who are celebrating are the government...etc.

"national celebration day" ("Nationalfeiertag") is the 26th of october ... the 26th october 1955 was the day the last foreign soldiers left (it was a british one...and not,like most people think, a soviet one) the country

many people feel ashamed of the history of our country (me included) so patriotism outside of sports is pretty uncommon...
how many people here have an austrian flag at home ?(don't matter if the flag is big or small) ...sorry i can't name a single one....
flag patriotism is far from being socially accepted...

the USA has to be more carefull with their patriotism (IMHO)..it shouldn't lead to blind flag patriotism... and from flag-patriotism it isn't far to hurrah-patriotism...i don't like the idea of a USA reminding me of prussia...

[skunk]

Thanks to all.
Good luck to you both.

[Neserk]

My lover of 12 years sleeps tonight in a hospital bed (in Virginia) after he and I spending last night in the ER, not sure of what was wrong with him. It turned out to be his appendix. The hospital could not have been nicer, They cared not for the state law. They only cared for his medical needs and my emotional and moral (as his life partner) needs.


Glad it was nothing too horrible. I went into the hospital 2 years ago with a similar problem (extreme pain in lower right quandrant of my abdomen). My husband and I had just become engaged the night before. My turn out was a little different (6.5 inch scar and finding out I couldn't have children). But from the patient's perspective, I can understand how frightening it is! And I'm sure my husband can sympathize with being the partner and seeing someone he loved in so much pain and completely helpless to do anything about it.


Maybe Teddy (Please note this is the first time that I have ever mentioned his name in this forum, may he forgive me :) ) and I have unrealistic expectations. It took Blacks (or African-Americans if you prefer) two hundred plus years to gain any semblance of equal rights. I don't think that 40 years after the the passage of civil rights amendments for Blacks, that he and I wait that long for ours.


Gay people have been around since the beginning of time ;) You've waited plenty long! Thankfully it will not be much longer. We, as a country, have learned from our mistakes and sooner than later you will be able to get married.


If we were a "straight couple", his lay-off would have been a "life changing" event. Therefore he could have been added to my insurance. We are not offered that option. So his COBRA payment is $500 a month! He has a job now, but his surgery has pushed back his participation by 2 to 4 weeks.


OUCH! But I am sure you are thankful for that! It is crazy in my mind that people don't see the need for a law that simply recognizes all domestic partners, regardless of their sexual relationship. *sigh*


Add to that, in Virginia they just passed a law that restricts Teddy and I to enter in to any contracts that "mirror" a marriage and its obligations.


:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Can't wait to see that declared illegal in the coming years! They have gone way too far!


Forgive me for being selfish. When Teddy and I went the the ER last night, we had no idea as to what was wrong. It turned out to be the appendix. It could have been an ulcer, or even worse. Between the CAT scan and the surgery, for those that have been through it, the legal requirements make one wonder about coming through it.


Selfish? Don't be silly. Nothing selfish. It could have been much worse. But thankfully just an appendicits and he does have health insurance!


Please bear with me, but tody has been emotional on many fronts. As the man I have loved for the past 12 years went through surgery, we had politicians deciding what marriage should be. Teddy and I are not looking for anything special. We are not wanting ANY church to give us recognition. That is their choice.


Well, plenty of churches will give you their blessing and God's blessing. Unfortuantely they don't have the power to give you the legal rights you need.


If I sound bitter it is only because of what he and I face in the next few weeks.


You will be okay, promise. Just take things one day at a time. The worst is over!

[Neserk]

the USA has to be more carefull with their patriotism (IMHO)...

agreed...

[Chip NoVaMac]

He came home yesterday afternoon. Still a bit tender to say the least. Though he is happy to be home with Chewey (our 2 3/4 year old flat coated lab/chow mix) and me.

I showed him my comments here, he was happy and moved that I had felt so strongly, and that there were so many supportive voices here. It also showed him that he made the right choice to register to vote (at my insistence, he has noted voted since 1980.). You see I am the news hound and the "political" one of the house.

He also wants to send thanks to you all for your thoughts and prayers for the two of us. As do I, yet again.

[Neserk]

He came home yesterday afternoon. Still a bit tender to say the least. Though he is happy to be home with Chewey (our 2 3/4 year old flat coated lab/chow mix) and me.

I showed him my comments here, he was happy and moved that I had felt so strongly, and that there were so many supportive voices here. It also showed him that he made the right choice to register to vote (at my insistence, he has noted voted since 1980.). You see I am the news hound and the "political" one of the house.

He also wants to send thanks to you all for your thoughts and prayers for the two of us. As do I, yet again.


Great News! Thanks for the update!

[Chip NoVaMac]

Glad it was nothing too horrible. I went into the hospital 2 years ago with a similar problem (extreme pain in lower right quandrant of my abdomen). My husband and I had just become engaged the night before. My turn out was a little different (6.5 inch scar and finding out I couldn't have children). But from the patient's perspective, I can understand how frightening it is! And I'm sure my husband can sympathize with being the partner and seeing someone he loved in so much pain and completely helpless to do anything about it.

You are a lucky woman to have such a man by your side at that time and now. My heart goes out to you both. I "came out" in my 20's, so I was with the idea of having children prior to that. But you both are blessed in so many other ways.

Gay people have been around since the beginning of time ;) You've waited plenty long! Thankfully it will not be much longer. We, as a country, have learned from our mistakes and sooner than later you will be able to get married.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Can't wait to see that declared illegal in the coming years! They have gone way too far!

Well, plenty of churches will give you their blessing and God's blessing. Unfortuantely they don't have the power to give you the legal rights you need.


I think it is harder now that Mass. opened up the can of worms. We see politicians on both sides covering their asses with the "religious right" and other conservatives. We are thankful that the Constitutional Amendment now being debated is a "show vote" all for the benefit of the 2004 election.

But it still hurts. The hang up seems to be what marriage means. Many are putting a religious spin on the word. But yet a marriage can be performed at the local courthouse.

My reference to churches was to counter the "fear" that some feel that churches would be forced to "marry" same sex couples. I and Teddy would not want to marry in a church that did not want to accept us.

For he and I believe in a love and caring God that would not forsake his children for what nature gave us. We could live a lie, we could be celibate; but would that be right?

In the end it is not up to anyone but ourselves to make the choices in life that will lead us to us to heaven. Churches can point out what their feelings are, but in the end it should be and is up to the individual.

What is next laws that cover each of the Ten Commandments? Ok at least one is covered, though shall not kill.

[Neserk]

I think it is harder now that Mass. opened up the can of worms. We see politicians on both sides covering their asses with the "religious right" and other conservatives. We are thankful that the Constitutional Amendment now being debated is a "show vote" all for the benefit of the 2004 election.

But it still hurts. The hang up seems to be what marriage means. Many are putting a religious spin on the word. But yet a marriage can be performed at the local courthouse.


I think we should all have civil unions which is what gives the legal rights to people and if someone wants to have their union blessed by a religious group than they can have a separate ceremony for that. Problem solved. I'm also in favor of domestic partnerships for people like 2 sisters I knew who bought a house together and shared everything. I don't think people should have to be having sex to get benefits, either. Simply a commitment to one another. (But that is another tangent).


My reference to churches was to counter the "fear" that some feel that churches would be forced to "marry" same sex couples. I and Teddy would not want to marry in a church that did not want to accept us.


Okay. The fear is ridiculous of course. A Church can refuse to marry anyone. I know some ministers who won't marry people who are living together before they are married. Some won't marry a Catholic and Protestant and others won't marry them if they aren't both Christians. (Of course the irony for me is that had I not lived with my husband before we were married I would have likely ended up dead or extremely sick, as I was in no condition to even call 911 that Monday morning I ended up in the hospital).


For he and I believe in a love and caring God that would not forsake his children for what nature gave us. We could live a lie, we could be celibate; but would that be right?


I believe that Paul acknoweldges that celibacy isn't for everyone. It is ridiculous to expect that all people who are gay should be celibate. I'm personally not in favor of celibacy at all. I think it is unnatural for most people. I know that when I was I was nearly obsessed with sex. Not having the outlet is unheatlhy. God gave us our sexual desires even when we can't reproduce so that says to me that God wants us to have sex for pleasure and intimacy.


What is next laws that cover each of the Ten Commandments? Ok at least one is covered, though shall not kill.

LOL

[Sayhey]

...I think it is harder now that Mass. opened up the can of worms. We see politicians on both sides covering their asses with the "religious right" and other conservatives. We are thankful that the Constitutional Amendment now being debated is a "show vote" all for the benefit of the 2004 election....

Glad Teddy is home and feeling better.

On this vote for the "hate" amendment, it needs to not be close. You have a Senator in Virginia, John Warner, who last I looked was on the fence. He needs letters from constituents telling him which way to vote. You can believe that Jerry Falwell, Ollie North, and others are pushing him to one side; some counter pressure is in order.

That, of course, is also the case in other states where Senators are on the fence about the amendment.

For all who don't already know about it, here's a good site to monitor what is happening.

Human Rights Campaign (http://www.hrc.org/)