Pentagon Says Bush Records of Service Were Destroyed

[zimv20]

link (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/09/politics/campaign/09records.html?hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1089345760-E3VV6B3U7zp293QBfWCP5g)


HOUSTON, July 8 - Military records that could help establish President Bush's whereabouts during his disputed service in the Texas Air National Guard more than 30 years ago have been inadvertently destroyed, according to the Pentagon.

It said the payroll records of "numerous service members," including former First Lt. Bush, had been ruined in 1996 and 1997 by the Defense Finance and Accounting Service during a project to salvage deteriorating microfilm. No back-up paper copies could be found, it added in notices dated June 25.

The destroyed records cover three months of a period in 1972 and 1973 when Mr. Bush's claims of service in Alabama are in question.

The disclosure appeared to catch some experts, both pro-Bush and con, by surprise. Even the retired lieutenant colonel who studied Mr. Bush's records for the White House, Albert C. Lloyd of Austin, said it came as news to him.

The loss was announced by the Defense Department's Office of Freedom of Information and Security Review in letters to The New York Times and other news organizations that for nearly half a year have sought Mr. Bush's complete service file under the open-records law.

There was no mention of the loss, for example, when White House officials released hundreds of pages of the President's military records last February in an effort to stem Democratic accusations that he was "AWOL" for a time during his commitment to fly at home in the Air National Guard during the Vietnam War.

Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director who has said that the released records confirmed the president's fulfillment of his National Guard commitment, did not return two calls for a response.

The disclosure that the payroll records had been destroyed came in a letter signed by C. Y. Talbott, chief of the Pentagon's Freedom of Information Office, who forwarded a CD-Rom of hundreds of records that Mr. Bush has previously released, along with images of punch-card records. Sixty pages of Mr. Bush's medical file and some other records were excluded on privacy grounds, Mr. Talbott wrote.

He said in the letter that he could not provide complete payroll records, explaining, "The Defense Finance and Accounting Service (DFAS) has advised of the inadvertent destruction of microfilm containing certain National Guard payroll records."

He went on: "In 1996 and 1997, DFAS engaged with limited success in a project to salvage deteriorating microfilm. During this process the microfilm payroll records of numerous service members were damaged, including from the first quarter of 1969 (Jan. 1 to March 31) and the third quarter of 1972 (July 1 to Sept. 30). President Bush's payroll records for these two quarters were among the records destroyed. Searches for backup paper copies of the missing records were unsuccessful."

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how convenient.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Glad that Moore has at least one piece that is not even blacked out.

Bush milked the system. He did everything he could to avoid going to Vietnam. Daddy covered his butt for him back then.

[themadchemist]

oh, I believe them! I'm sure it was a harmless mistake...

yeah, mmhmm. :rolleyes:

[skunk]

how convenient.
God is on his side.

[Neserk]

Yeah, well it is hard to destroy something that didn't exist :p

[Voltron]

oh, I believe them! I'm sure it was a harmless mistake...

yeah, mmhmm. :rolleyes:
Actually they also inavertantly destroyed my medical records. Luckily I made copies of everything and had my own set. Well most everything some of them shots were made in areas without copy machines and they don't let you keep their copies.

[Voltron]

Yeah, well it is hard to destroy something that didn't exist :p
But easy apparently to get a purple heart for a razor cut. At least for some people.http://sharevana.com/forums/images/generalsmileys/nono.gif

[themadchemist]

But easy apparently to get a purple heart for a razor cut. At least for some people.http://sharevana.com/forums/images/generalsmileys/nono.gif

hmmm, I find it funny that conservatives would criticize a man who actually fought in Vietnam and yet not have any problems with the record of a guy who AWOLed from his strings-pulled Coast Guard cop-out. :rolleyes:


Actually they also inavertantly destroyed my medical records. Luckily I made copies of everything and had my own set. Well most everything some of them shots were made in areas without copy machines and they don't let you keep their copies.


Funny thing, last time I checked, you weren't the POTUS whose record was being questioned...When it happens to you, it's an inconvenience. When it happens to Bush after those very same records have caused a controversy, it's a cover-up.

The coincidence that by sheer luck Bush got such a break is laughable at best.

[Voltron]

hmmm, I find it funny that conservatives would criticize a man who actually fought in Vietnam and yet not have any problems with the record of a guy who AWOLed from his strings-pulled Coast Guard cop-out. :rolleyes:



Funny thing, last time I checked, you weren't the POTUS whose record was being questioned...When it happens to you, it's an inconvenience. When it happens to Bush after those very same records have caused a controversy, it's a cover-up.

The coincidence that by sheer luck Bush got such a break is laughable at best.
First off there is no proof that Bush was AWOL if he had been AWOL then he would never of been honorably discharged.

Second off the doctor who swabbed Kerry's wound said it was not serious enough to warrent medical care thus did not deserve a purple heart.

Kerry has no honor, integrity or character.

BTW latest controversy kerry was quoted saying that he thinks that life begins at conception, but while he himself thinks it is murder to committ adultery he doesn't think legislation should force other people to stop having abortions. I'm not arguing when life begins, because I don't know. However, if Kerry believes it begins at conception and he believes aborting it is murder, thus his standing on the law is that people should be free to commit murder.

Those of you who think wellfare mothers be enforced sterilized so as to prevent more leaches on society is a rotten idea should also be disgusted by Kerry's point of view.

He'll change his mind later after his experts gets done running a fine tooth comb through the polls and his opinion will change conveniently to one that the majority of voters want him to think.

[themadchemist]

First off there is no proof that Bush was AWOL if he had been AWOL then he would never of been honorably discharged.


He got the Coast Guard gig in the first place because his father was well-connected. AWOL or not, George W. was going to be dishonorably discharged because George H.W. was George H.W.


Second off the doctor who swabbed Kerry's wound said it was not serious enough to warrent medical care thus did not deserve a purple heart.


He didn't give himself a purple heart. The military decided to give it to him based on reports filed by doctors, right? Therefore, the person who had the responsibility to make the judgment call thought he was deserving and that's what counts.

I don't know what merits a purple heart and what doesn't, but Kerry did get shrapnel injuries of some sort and government officials did think that he was deserving of a purple heart. It's probably somewhat subjective, unlike being AWOL.


Kerry has no honor, integrity or character.


I would say the same of Mr. Bush.


BTW latest controversy kerry was quoted saying that he thinks that life begins at conception, but while he himself thinks it is murder to committ adultery he doesn't think legislation should force other people to stop having abortions. I'm not arguing when life begins, because I don't know. However, if Kerry believes it begins at conception and he believes aborting it is murder, thus his standing on the law is that people should be free to commit murder.


He simply said that this conclusion on his part was reached based purely on religious beliefs and therefore it would be wrong for him to consider it when making a governmental decision. Because Congress shall (supposedly) make no law regarding religion, Kerry feels that he is duty-bound to avoid injecting his own religious beliefs into law-making. If anything, it is a mature and well-reasoned perspective that protects people who aren't Christian, like me, from a whole slew of religious legislation in a country that claims to be secular.


Those of you who think wellfare mothers should not be enforced sterilized so as to prevent more leaches on society is a rotten idea should also be disgusted by Kerry's point of view.


First of all, are you saying that people who support mandatory sterilization should be disgusted by Kerry or the opposite? Your use of negatives makes it sound like a friend of mandatory sterilization is no friend of Kerry. If that's the case, then I agree with you! I don't support mandatory sterilization and I support Kerry. Certainly, if you support mandatorily sterilizing welfare mothers, you probably shouldn't go with Kerry.

On the other hand, if you're insinuating that John Kerry supports mandatory sterilization of welfare mothers, then I'd like you to produce proof for that grave accusation. I see nothing of the sort in his platform.


He'll change his mind later after his experts gets done running a fine tooth comb through the polls and his opinion will change conveniently to one that the majority of voters want him to think.

You know, intelligent people are flexible enough to change their minds on issues as time and new information is produced. On the other hand, the people who believe that all decisions should be derived directly from one's own intractable, religiously-based, moral dogma would neither compromise nor reconsider. Since Bush doesn't examine evidence all that much but seems just to go off on his own fancies and whims, seeking and embracing the evidence to corroborate his presupposed position, then of course he'd never change his mind. He fits the evidence to his decision, while Kerry fits his decision to the substantive evidence available at any given time.

Real, thoughtful human beings change their opinions from time to time.

[Neserk]

First off there is no proof that Bush was AWOL .


that is because they "accidentally" deleted it :p

[Chip NoVaMac]

Actually they also inavertantly destroyed my medical records. Luckily I made copies of everything and had my own set. Well most everything some of them shots were made in areas without copy machines and they don't let you keep their copies.

That would be unusual. I say that because of what your postings would make your age at.

I will say that as a military dependent, MY MEDICAL RECORDS WERE DESTROYED back in the 70's or 80's.

I will also say that unless there has been substantial changes since the 80's the military was very protective of the medical records.

The real issue is with Bush. He made an issue of his ANG stint. There were real questions as to what and where he was doing what he should have doing. ALL TO CONVENIENT THAT THOSE RECORDS ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE.

Bush is just showing that he is no able to stand on his past record.

[Chip NoVaMac]

But easy apparently to get a purple heart for a razor cut. At least for some people.http://sharevana.com/forums/images/generalsmileys/nono.gif

Can you prove this other than Drudge or some opinion piece?

[Chip NoVaMac]

First off there is no proof that Bush was AWOL if he had been AWOL then he would never of been honorably discharged.

Talk with those that actually served in NG units back then. It was a matter of who you knew and how much money that backed that "who:".

\Second off the doctor who swabbed Kerry's wound said it was not serious enough to warrent medical care thus did not deserve a purple heart.

Kerry has no honor, integrity or character.


Can you you name a source that is not Drudge or the Wash Times, or FOX for this?



BTW latest controversy kerry was quoted saying that he thinks that life begins at conception, but while he himself thinks it is murder to committ adultery he doesn't think legislation should force other people to stop having abortions. I'm not arguing when life begins, because I don't know. However, if Kerry believes it begins at conception and he believes aborting it is murder, thus his standing on the law is that people should be free to commit murder..

No bearing in this thread,

Those of you who think wellfare mothers be enforced sterilized so as to prevent more leaches on society is a rotten idea should also be disgusted by Kerry's point of view.

Provide references to the posts?

He'll change his mind later after his experts gets done running a fine tooth comb through the polls and his opinion will change conveniently to one that the majority of voters want him to think.

Better than a lying President that used "faulty" data. As I said in another thread. The left is closer to the heart. Remember that heart attacks are shown through pain in the left arm. I would prefer"heart' over "brain".

[pseudobrit]

First of all, are you saying that people who support mandatory sterilization should be disgusted by Kerry or the opposite? Your use of negatives makes it sound like a friend of mandatory sterilization is no friend of Kerry. If that's the case, then I agree with you! I don't support mandatory sterilization and I support Kerry. Certainly, if you support mandatorily sterilizing welfare mothers, you probably shouldn't go with Kerry.

To clear the air, Volton/Slyhunter has/does advocate forced sterilisation for women on welfare, IIRC.

But what does that or John Kerry have to do with Bush being unable to prove he served his duty in the Guard and there being an uncanny and unfolding set of circumstances making sure no one can prove he didn't?

[Chip NoVaMac]

To clear the air, Volton/Slyhunter has/does advocate forced sterilisation for women on welfare, IIRC.

But what does that or John Kerry have to do with Bush being unable to prove he served his duty in the Guard and there being an uncanny and unfolding set of circumstances making sure no one can prove he didn't?

Patriotism seems to be an issue in Bush's themes.

I have a problem with someone that refuses to show up for a flight physical. I also have an issue with an active member of the ANG that refuses to get certified for newer aircraft.

It gives the impression that the ANG was not a "real" commitment for Bush Jr.

I am not sure things have changed, but I hope so. If my tax dollars are going to train ANG pilots they better show up for the physical and maintain certification for the current aircraft being flown.

[Voltron]

To clear the air, Volton/Slyhunter has/does advocate forced sterilisation for women on welfare, IIRC.

But what does that or John Kerry have to do with Bush being unable to prove he served his duty in the Guard and there being an uncanny and unfolding set of circumstances making sure no one can prove he didn't?
Proof he did is his honarable discharge. They didn't lose that!

[pseudobrit]

Patriotism seems to be an issue in Bush's themes.

And a true patriot makes damn sure he at least has that honorable discharge to point to.

I'm sure we're about to hear the contrast between "brave Bush" who got his HD from the TANG defending the Rio Grande from an impending invasion but can't prove he actually showed up and "coward Kerry" who got wounded three times in combat with Vietnamese Communists but got a medal for minor injuries that had him back in active duty with no time lost.

Those ****ing cowards with their Purple Hearts! What kind of leadership does that demonstrate?

[zimv20]

Those ****ing cowards with their Purple Hearts! What kind of leadership does that demonstrate?
it reeks of fear. bush/cheney are terrified of kerry/edwards.