Why all the angst against Apple lately?

[FakeWozniak]

The best theory I can imagine is something akin to moving from the West Coast to the East Coast. People will complain when their environment changes. It's just a matter of the size of the group complaining and who will listen.

For example, for the last decade, most people were on Windows for one reason or another. Anyone that didn't like the price, closed system nature, obscurity, etc. of Macintosh would have gone to Windows. A few brave folks might have tried Linux, but that was for the extremely self sufficient.

For whatever reason, we now see Macintosh marketshare up about 5% from 10 years ago. With that 5%, 10s of millions of users have switched. These users were likely comfortable with the Windows environment at one time, but for some reason, they switched. Since the cost of change to Macintosh was large (new machine, new OS, new software, education time), it would be reasonable to conclude it was something negative toward Windows. Since Apple has always cost more, the reasons must be environmental. Basically, Windows sucked bad enough to change to the more expensive Macintosh environment.

In my experience, most people will complain when changing environments. These changes are not always chosen by the user, but can also be decided by a corporate IT group. I remember when I was forced to go from a true Unix development environment to a Windows development. It took time to get used to the new diggs and I complained a lot. I couldn't complain to the Windows folks, since they were used to the nuances so I had to complain to the Unix folks that had to switch too, just like me. This is just like Windows users that switched, now complaining in the Apple forums. If they complained in the Windows forums, they'd get an "I told you so", and nobody likes that.

And the Windows forums don't want to listens to these Windows to Macintosh transition pains, so they go to MacRumors among others. There'll be no sympathy for people who deserted the Windows platform. We, as accustomed Macintosh users, just need to let them get it out until they get as comfortable with the new environment. Maybe we need to remind them they decided to switch, or remind them what they left.

Last thought about those new Macintosh users. Remember that 5% is like 10s of millions, so you are bound to get a LOT of whining.

Thoughts?

FakeWoz

[thejadedmonkey]

Personally? I'm very quick to complain about Apple. Why's that? Simple: I believed that when I was paying $2200 for my Macbook Pro, that not only was I getting a professional machine, but that I would also be getting professional support with a world class warranty.

I was one with the RDF, and I didn't mind. Heck, I even tried telling myself that the KP's I was getting were no more frequent then on my old laptop. In truth, it was about the same, but nothing like the "amazing OS X reliability" that everyone always talked about. I didn't care, it was an Apple, and the RDF was at work.

A year ago, Apple ended that fantasy by trying to charge me over $1000 to fix my in-warranty computer. Once you loose the RDF, you never get it back.

A few months ago, Microsoft was giving away Windows 7 RC, which I installed on my computer. It's sexy, it's customizable, and it doesn't have the dock. I haven't had any horrid Windows errors that everyone complains about, and so when it came time to go back to college, I decided not to take my MBP with me. I would rather lend it to my girlfriend so she can play the Sims 3 on it, than deal with Applecare again.

So now I have a netbook that cost me $285 from Dell (for comparison, that's the cost of a hard drive from Apple), and it's great for my portable needs, and I have a desktop I've put about $500 into, and it works great for all of my gaming needs. I don't understand how I could spend $2200 on another MBP anymore, they're just not worth the money.

So if Apple does something dumb, I'm not going to be an Apple apologist, and I'll tell it like it is. The RDF is gone for me, and seeing how blinded I was by it, I don't see why I should propagate that sort of blindness.

[rhett7660]

Well at least you live up to your name Jaded..... :)

[Consultant]

Apple doesn't cost more if you consider TOTAL cost of ownership.

For most people they work perfectly.

If you sell millions there will of course be deviants.

Apple tops 2009 customer satisfaction
http://www.macnn.com/articles/09/02/19/apple.tops.satisfication/

Apple leads HP, Dell in consumer satisfaction survey
http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/06/25/apple.consumers.satisfied/

[MisterMe]

...

A few months ago, Microsoft was giving away Windows 7 RC, which I installed on my computer. It's sexy, it's customizable, and it doesn't have the dock. I haven't had any horrid Windows errors that everyone complains about, and so when it came time to go back to college, I decided not to take my MBP with me. I would rather lend it to my girlfriend so she can play the Sims 3 on it, than deal with Applecare again.

...I have no idea what your circumstances are, but I'd bet that there is a lot that you are not saying. I have used AppleCare since 1991. In all of this time, I have nothing but high praise for it.

[KeriJane]

Hello.

I'm relatively new to Mac, using this Mac Pro 1.1 for about a year and a half.

A bit of history: I've been using PC computers since 1993 and DOS/ Win 3.1
I've even built a couple of my own for NLE duty when nothing suitable was easily available. The latest and best was a Core2Duo/P35 system with Hardware RAID, HD3850 video, six hard drives, etc in a Lian-Li case. It was very good actually. An Apple 23" Cinema Display was my last addition to it.
What happened? Vista. Amongst other things, I got really tired of continually re-activating Vista every time I made a minor change to something.


So, being really impressed with the Cinema Display, I bought a Mac Pro floor model for a song when the 8-core ones came out.
It's a fantastic, powerful, wonderful computer. By far the best I've ever used or seen.
It renders video insanely fast. The FW800 works great with LaCie external drives, etc... everything Just Works.
It's Quiet. It's Stable. It looks great and is incredibly well constructed, even better than a Lian-Li PC case. OSX took a little getting used to but I did it.

So.... having what I consider to be the best computer I've ever seen, I naturally go to my electronics forum (BadCaps), tell everyone about it and... get all manner of abuse!

The Chorus sings out: "You FOOL! - I could build a WAY FASTER and BETTER IN EVERY WAY computer than a Mac Pro for $500!" or whatever.
When you try to point out that a dual-Xeon Server board alone is that much and that the total cost of the components is close to Apple's list price they call me a liar and a fangirl!

They HATE the Mighty Mouse, which I adore.

They call the excellent Cinema Display a complete ripoff and Apple ought to be sued for Fraud when they could get a way better monitor for $300 tops.

They claim that OSX is a weak, totally lame ripoff of an OS that's more susceptible to Viruses that Windows! :confused:

They've called me Ignorant, Stupid, a Liar and a Fangirl.

All because I happened to say: "I've tried out this Mac for awhile and like it a lot and am really impressed with it."

Why all the Anti-Apple Rants?
I never called them Stupid or Liars or Rude or Ignorant.
Which they apparently are.
Nor have I ever made fun of or put down their computers.

I don't take it personally because I know they're just Jealous ;)

Have Fun,
Keri


PS. I jokingly called one of them an MS Operative complete with "JUST KIDDING, OK?" (after he said that Vista DIDN'T "Bomb") and he took it very, very seriously and to heart.
Sheesh! They can dish it out but can't take it.

[PeterQC]

I was one with the RDF, and I didn't mind.

...

Once you loose the RDF, you never get it back.

...

The RDF is gone for me, and seeing how blinded I was by it

RDF? What is that?

[NoSmokingBandit]

Its the Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field.
Also goes by the name "sonic wall of lies."

[thejadedmonkey]

I have no idea what your circumstances are, but I'd bet that there is a lot that you are not saying. I have used AppleCare since 1991. In all of this time, I have nothing but high praise for it.

Here's the full story. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=625771)
Long story short, a slight dent will void your entire warranty, including things that Apple has already acknowledged as needing replacement, and the only way to fix it is to pay Apple $1259. At the time, the same model MBP's cost $1299 on the refurb store.

Well at least you live up to your name Jaded..... :)Yep! ;)

[mac2x]

Its the Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field.
Also goes by the name "sonic wall of lies."

As if Micro$oft is as pure as the driven snow... :rolleyes:

[mac2x]

Here's the full story. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=625771)
Long story short, a slight dent will void your entire warranty, including things that Apple has already acknowledged as needing replacement, and the only way to fix it is to pay Apple $1259. At the time, the same model MBP's cost $1299 on the refurb store.

Yep! ;)

The way I read your story, it was more than a "slight dent". Sounded like you fell off a bike with it or something. That could certainly cause significant internal damage, even with the machine off.

[thejadedmonkey]

The way I read your story, it was more than a "slight dent". Sounded like you fell off a bike with it or something. That could certainly cause significant internal damage, even with the machine off.

Bike or not, there's no reason they should not be replacing parts that I had asked them to make a note about since the first day I got the machine. Parts that were not broken, and could not have possibly had anything to do with a fall off of a cliff.

Then, there's the fact that I spent $35 of my own money while Apple wanted $1200...

I would never use Applecare again, to the point where I would go to BestBuy and buy their coverage to avoid dealing with Applecare. The lady I talked to was rude, and a I understand that the customer is not "always right", but I don't spend well over $2000 and then expect to be treated like crap.

[rhett7660]

So you dented the computer and then expected Apple to pay for the product that you damaged? Really? That is why you are so pissed at Apple....?

And then they fix it and you are still pissed? Really? Wow.

[SactoGuy18]

They HATE the Mighty Mouse, which I adore.


Unfortunately, a lot of Mac users hate the Mighty Mouse, too. Small wonder why Logitech sells a LOT of mouse pointers to Mac users. I recently upgraded from a Logitech MX500 to the new M500 model and I especially love the new, ultra-fast scroll wheel function. :)

[ss957916]

After a few problems with MS, I moved over to Apple in 2005 - and couldn't recommend them enough. I loved my Mac, loved what it did, how it did it and would be amazed whenever I saw someone on a PC.

However, in the last couple of years I've become massively fed-up with Apple for the following main reasons:

- My first PowerBook had two new batteries and finished its life with the screen just going altogether (after less than two years).

- iPhone having the same form factor from 1st gen to 3rd gen is a really poor show - I have a 3GS but it feels just like my 1st gen iPhone. Pah!

- Airport Express conked out after 13 months - £70 down the drain.

- Awful Snow Leopard (I've now downgraded)

- The whole 'buy something on Monday and oop! Apple have brought out a new range so now your new unit is outdated' thing has become very tiring. A friend is still waiting to buy Apple TV for fear of a new one coming out any day.

- Current MBP (which cost £1550) has a wifi problem.

- Getting customer support is not easy. The whole making appts at the genius bar thing is very frustrating. With no other product do I need to make an appointment to go back the shop and complain something doesn't work!

These are just my opinions and things that piss me off, but it's enough for me to no longer recommend Apple. I can also safely say that I won't look exclusively at Apple products any more. I've bought a PowerBook and two MBPs and none of them have been a 'pro' machine. I'll seriously look at some cheap thing running Windows 7 - at least then when it goes tits-up I'll only be £399 out of pocket.

For Apple to be losing me after just four years surely isn't a good thing. I think they're resting on their laurels and MS are coming up fast.

[NoSmokingBandit]

As if Micro$oft is as pure as the driven snow... :rolleyes:

Did anyone say they were or are you just looking for a reason to bash MS?

:rolleyes:



They HATE the Mighty Mouse, which I adore.
To be fair, a large amount of mac users also hate the MM. Its just a terrible excuse for a $50 mouse.

They call the excellent Cinema Display a complete ripoff and Apple ought to be sued for Fraud when they could get a way better monitor for $300 tops.

The ACDs generally are a ripoff. Dell offers the same panels in a lot of their monitors at a much lower price, so to get the ACD you are just paying more for the aluminum case and the apple logo.

[mac2x]

Bike or not, there's no reason they should not be replacing parts that I had asked them to make a note about since the first day I got the machine. Parts that were not broken, and could not have possibly had anything to do with a fall off of a cliff.

Then, there's the fact that I spent $35 of my own money while Apple wanted $1200...

I would never use Applecare again, to the point where I would go to BestBuy and buy their coverage to avoid dealing with Applecare. The lady I talked to was rude, and a I understand that the customer is not "always right", but I don't spend well over $2000 and then expect to be treated like crap.

I think most warranties on just about anything don't cover damage that's the user's fault. If the computer had issues before you fell with it, it is you the customer's responsibility to have Apple fix it. That's covered under Applecare. However, once you damage it yourself, why should they fix it?

[mac2x]

Did anyone say they were or are you just looking for a reason to bash MS?

:rolleyes:



[...]

No one's perfect, and all that rubbish about a "Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field" conveniently overlooks a lot distortion on Micro$oft's part. Namely their stranglehold on the market with an OS that's substandard. Why do you think Apple's marketshare has been growing slowly but surely??? I hope MS has taken notice and will improve their platform by (not holding my breath though) rewriting Windows to eliminate old technology like the registry and DOS support. Apple's writing PPC support out of OS X, so why can't MS deprecate their old technologies too?

[pdjudd]

Apple's writing PPC support out of OS X, so why can't MS deprecate their old technologies too?

You really cannot compare the to. Microsoft sells and bends over backwards to ensure that enterprise customers will buy their pricey volume licenses. One such requirements that these companies have is that they require, no, demand compatibility with software that often times is never updated (due to internal development or its a really custom thing). That's Microsoft's business strategy - to sell software. Their niche is enterprise. Apple's consumer focused business model does not have such a high requirement.

The overall hate that Apple brings is one that is similar to religion. While I do not wish to engage is such a debate, people have an almost religious zeal reguarding their platform of coice. It exists on both sides and whenever a small person (Apple) is popular the established majority doesn't like it and think that something is rotten in Denmark. And like religion, people take offensives very personally,

[djellison]

A couple of things

The shift to Intel has made it more simple than ever to compare, apple-to-apple (pun intended) the value of Apple hardware. People try to defend it, but sorry, it's just not defensible. It's over priced. Fact.

The iPhone. revolutionary? Yup. Flawed? HELL yes.

The Mac Book Air - never has form dominated over function so badly.

Snow Leopard - that's £25 I can't have back - and, hand on heart, I can't tell the damn difference. Indeed, on a 2.2Ghz MBP - it's made it slower - not faster.

Shift to Mobile Me? What a bloody disaster that was.

The treatment of apps-store developers is utterly unforgiveable.

iTunes 9. Bloatier, slower and again, no new features I'm noticing.

iPod Touch...no camera. But they fit one in a damn iPod NANO? What the hell?

Hang on - where did my Firewire port go? That's right - Apple took it out of the Macbook. Then wrote 'Pro' on in crayon, and put the firewire port BACK IN, after telling us all we didn't actually need firewire anyway.

CRAP - there is no other word for it - CRAP screen quality on those interim UBMB's. £300 netbooks have better displays.

DL-DVI adaptor for Mini DP machines. It's £70 to plug your monitor in. and IT DOES NOT WORK.

What's that on the floor? ANOTHER chuck of plastic falling off a plastic Macbook.

Apple have done a lot of things over the past couple of years that are very very worthy of criticism.

I tolerate these because Keynote (the single 'killer app' for OSX for what I do) does one thing, that powerpoint will not. I want ONE laptop. And so it's a Mac because of keynote. That's it. Without it, I would switch back in a second.

But I can't stand the ever increasing volume of Apple fanboys...

Claiming the above problems don't exist
Claiming the above problems are NOT problems becuase Micro$oft (LMFAO I swapped a S for a $ how cool) do the same or worse
Claiming that one OS is 'better' than the other
Lying - there is no other word for it - LYING about competing products, or the abilities and value of Apple products.

So - you have a double whammy effect. Apple doing some very annoying stuff, and the fanboys being exceptionally annoying defending it and going on the offensive against other products.

It's very very very easy to really hate Apple and it's fanboys at the moment.

[bruinsrme]

I bought an iphone with OS 3.0 on it it was flawe but it was functional.
I had no desire to suffer the issues 3.1 has introduced but yet Apple is forced me to do so. Now my battery life is worse, I am suffering the coma (4 times now) and my wifi is worse than before.
Thank you apple....

[mac2x]

I think it's pretty obvious that "djellison" is a Micro$oft fanboy.

No one but a complete fool would insist that any platform is perfect. There's some things I don't like about OS X, but overall it performs better and is much more reliable than Windows. Never once have I had a crash worse than just one application. That's because it's Unix. Back in my Windows days? I was always having to do hard shutdowns because something crashed, and took the whole system down with it. XP was better, as it seemed to be able to recover itself most of the time after you killed the offending process in Task Manager, but still it sometimes take 5 minutes of waiting to even be able to get Task Manager to come up! That never happens in Unix. [edit] Well, it's pretty uncommon for something to go haywire. Thanks belvdr! :)

I have no experience with the iPhone, so I can't pass any judgements there.

[Rodimus Prime]

I think the problem is coming from the fact that apple RDF is falling apart very quickly and it starting to show. Apple now is getting hammer by this fact so all the problem they been getting away with are starting to come out and people are starting to complain. Apple is heading into the mainstream and when that happens no more RDF.

[belvdr]

That never happens in Unix.

When NFS hangs, you'll soon experience goofiness in Unix. :) "Never" is a bad choice here; it implies perfection. While better, it does happen on Unix.

Either way, I only dumped Windows to give my wife a nice photo solution with an easy interface.

[mac2x]

True dat. :) But it certainly isn't a common occurrence. :cool:

[djellison]

I think it's pretty obvious that "djellison" is a Micro$oft fanboy. .

Then why do I live in a three mac laptop household with two iPod Touches - and of those 5 items, only one did I not personally buy?

If I were a Micro$oft (LMFAO - I swopped the S for an $ despite non Apple hardware being cheaper GENIUS...seriously - grow up) fanboy - I wouldn't own any Apple hardware. I'd be on a Dell right now probably. And I'd have about £1500 extra in my bank account.

Because I see justification for criticism of one brand - that makes me a fanboy of the other does it?

This is why people love to hate the Apple brand - ignorance, from Apple zealots - the limited hardware offerings from Apple - and the dictorial decision making that is far from perfect, from Jobs

[xIGmanIx]

to me, i have always had um bridge with mac users acting like they are smarter than the rest and that they get it and no one else does. Both OS's serve a purpose. I don't think being critical of something is wrong, esepcially if your passionate about them. I am a sports fan and my team makes me irate, i complain, and every sunday i watch them. even the small amount of market share increase is going to bring increased scrutiny and folks wondering what is the OS version of the windows way :D

[niuniu]

Apple always give me technical support over the phone even though I'm out of warranty. I like that.

I do think Apple's disc drives are the nastiest devices in any machine I'm came across. They don't read half the stuff you throw in them, especially if you're on OS X. I thought maybe it was just my 2007 MBP that had that issue, but then I got the gf a 2009 MBP recently and it's the same, discs getting suck, getting spewed out.. yada yada..

If Apple starts making better disc drives/optical drives w/e you call them then I'll be super satisfied. Their products are world first in functional design as far as I'm concerned and I'm happy to pay for it.

[rhett7660]

That is ok, I think it is funny that everytime someone sticks up for Apple on a subject that someone doesn't like they are immediatly called a fanboy. Lets not forget that because it doesn't work for you and it does work for someone else this doesn't make them a fanboy.


Nothing wrong with being critical of a product or brand. However just because YOU don't like something and another person does and it suits their needs and they stick up for that doesn't mean the person is a fanboy.

[djellison]

A typical example:

Firewire out of the UBMB.

I complained, bitterly. I was lambasted for being so wrong. Who needs firewire. Steve Jobs told the congregation that no one needed firewire any more. I was a Microsoft fanboy for not agreeing with or liking that design decision.

6 months later the same machine gets it's firewire port back again. Yet the rabid apple fanboys who were so adamant that I was wrong....were now celebrating its return.

One of the orig. iPhones biggest problems - MMS. Who needs MMS? We don't need MMS - send an email!! etc etc etc. Typical blinkered fanboys liking whatever Steve gives them, and rejecting anything he doesnt. Two years later, MMS makes an appearance, slowly. And it's celebrated as a great new feature. No it's not. You were telling us 18 months ago that no one NEEDS mms - that it's a waste of time.

Apple does some things BRILLIANTLY. But it does many things that are simply wrong. But because I wont celebrate every twist and turn of the Cupertino output, I'm classified as a Microsoft fanboy.

Threads of "OMG is that a MAC in a Microsoft advert?" So what? Mac's are just PC's - get over it. People calling them 'Micro$oft'. How old and outdated and frankly, WRONG is that? It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a discussion with someone who wants a laptop without the very basic fact that Apple don't do cheap. ALL their stuff is expensive. Most here will, of course, say that expense is worth it. But for the vast majority of people, it just isn't. They want a cheap laptop for basic stuff with a big screen. All Apple will sell them is a £2K MBP. Dell will sell them a machine that does all they'll need for £450. They want a small light travelling machine - £250 netbook does everything. But no - the Apple fanboys tell us they're just toys. Someone puts OS X on a Dell Netbook and it runs perfectly - it's brilliant...but no, because Steve didn't design it - it's a toy. Get an iPod Touch they say - or a Macbook Air. What - at >£1000?

This is the sort of behaviour that makes it so very easy to hate Apple and its fanboys.

[Abstract]

Why all the angst against Apple lately?


Because Apple SUCKS!


Wait, did I use the right colour, or was I supposed to red to indicate sarcasm?

[Rodimus Prime]

A typical example:

Firewire out of the UBMB.

I complained, bitterly. I was lambasted for being so wrong. Who needs firewire. Steve Jobs told the congregation that no one needed firewire any more. I was a Microsoft fanboy for not agreeing with or liking that design decision.

6 months later the same machine gets it's firewire port back again. Yet the rabid apple fanboys who were so adamant that I was wrong....were now celebrating its return.

One of the orig. iPhones biggest problems - MMS. Who needs MMS? We don't need MMS - send an email!! etc etc etc. Typical blinkered fanboys liking whatever Steve gives them, and rejecting anything he doesnt. Two years later, MMS makes an appearance, slowly. And it's celebrated as a great new feature. No it's not. You were telling us 18 months ago that no one NEEDS mms - that it's a waste of time.

Apple does some things BRILLIANTLY. But it does many things that are simply wrong. But because I wont celebrate every twist and turn of the Cupertino output, I'm classified as a Microsoft fanboy.

Threads of "OMG is that a MAC in a Microsoft advert?" So what? Mac's are just PC's - get over it. People calling them 'Micro$oft'. How old and outdated and frankly, WRONG is that? It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a discussion with someone who wants a laptop without the very basic fact that Apple don't do cheap. ALL their stuff is expensive. Most here will, of course, say that expense is worth it. But for the vast majority of people, it just isn't. They want a cheap laptop for basic stuff with a big screen. All Apple will sell them is a £2K MBP. Dell will sell them a machine that does all they'll need for £450. They want a small light travelling machine - £250 netbook does everything. But no - the Apple fanboys tell us they're just toys. Someone puts OS X on a Dell Netbook and it runs perfectly - it's brilliant...but no, because Steve didn't design it - it's a toy. Get an iPod Touch they say - or a Macbook Air. What - at >£1000?

This is the sort of behaviour that makes it so very easy to hate Apple and its fanboys.

+1 on that. The fanboys are very blind.

Another example I can think of is how they are all proud of the fact that apple dropped the floppy first. But what they are blind to back then is when Apple dropped the floppy disk there was nothing out on the market yet to allow some one to move small files between computers. CD burners were expensive like in the range of $400-500 and even if you did have a burner blanks were near impossible to fine and again cost quite a bit of money. No one had hear of a USB flash drive and any out were very costly and out side of most people price range. Dial up was the only way to get on the internet and the internet was still this brand new thing. Most people did not have email addresses yet and those who did no real way to send attachments.

That is during that time apple drop the floppy with nothing that was cost effective to replace it with. It was not for a few more years before a things really became cost effective to dump the floppy.

The apple fanboys do not see or even understand the argument about the floppy being dropped to early. Yes even then we could see the floppy was coming to an end of its life but it was still years away before a suitable replacement was out to move small files between computers.

Back when the floppy was dropped it would be like today dropping a CD/DVD drive from computers.

But that is just one example I have from apple past the the fanboy will pass right over and will flame me for.

[VulchR]

Perhaps people's expectations of Apple would be lower, and therefore people would be more satisfied, if Apple used less hyberbole....

Reasons to love :apple: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx7v815bYUw)

[xIGmanIx]

that was pretty funny

Perhaps people's expectations of Apple would be lower, and therefore people would be more satisfied, if Apple used less hyberbole....

Reasons to love :apple: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx7v815bYUw)

[KeriJane]

Perhaps people's expectations of Apple would be lower, and therefore people would be more satisfied, if Apple used less hyberbole....

Reasons to love :apple: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx7v815bYUw)

That was pretty funny....

But Apple remains #1 in customer satisfaction. Whats wrong with a little hyperbole?

Let them enjoy first place while they have it.


Hoping that they keep 1st place for awhile because I kinda like them a bit,
Keri

[jodelli]

Macs used to be fun to play with. Even the G3 iMacs could be dismantled pretty easily.
Now the lion's share of models sold just sit there and do the integrated hardware/software thing while all the wetware does is push buttons and tap surfaces.

Just thinking of Tom Hanks criticizing the new toys in 'Big'. "They used to move up and down. Now they just spin around in place".

They're slick streamlined appliances now; they're just too easy to use.;)

I'm not complaining. If I want a kludge I can build it myself.

[mac2x]

Then why do I live in a three mac laptop household with two iPod Touches - and of those 5 items, only one did I not personally buy?

If I were a Micro$oft (LMFAO - I swopped the S for an $ despite non Apple hardware being cheaper GENIUS...seriously - grow up) fanboy - I wouldn't own any Apple hardware. I'd be on a Dell right now probably. And I'd have about £1500 extra in my bank account.

Because I see justification for criticism of one brand - that makes me a fanboy of the other does it?

This is why people love to hate the Apple brand - ignorance, from Apple zealots - the limited hardware offerings from Apple - and the dictorial decision making that is far from perfect, from Jobs
So if you hate Apple so much, why the hell do you have so many of their products, or claim you do anyway? Furthermore, if you hate them so much, what are you doing on these fora? Only reason that makes any sense is that you are trolling plain and simple. :)

[Cassie]

So if you hate Apple so much, why the hell do you have so many of their products, or claim you do anyway?

People (and companies) make mistakes. It seems he tried to overlook the ones that both he and Apple made, and gave them another chance or two.

Or it could be, maybe you simply missed the part where he says he needs Keynote and puts up with Apple because of it.

[mac2x]

True, but I've yet to hear something negative about Micro$oft from him. It's always all about that evil company Apple. :rolleyes:

No one's perfect, that should be obvious.

Keynote is easily the best app in iWork '09. Love it. :)

[djellison]

True, but I've yet to hear something negative about Micro$oft from him.


This is a Mac forum - it's for discussing Mac things.

But as you've asked -

Powerpoint doesn't do the one thing that I have to use Keynote for.

Vista at release was totally unusable - I still don't like it and full hope to have avoided it in a production environment all together by the time I transition to Win 7.

Excel 2007 tries to do too much, I preferred Excel 2005.

Windows Mobile is crap. I had an HTC thing for a while and it was a sluggish piece of crap not worth bothering with.

Microsoft don't make PC's - just an OS. The hardware they do make is, to be honest, damn good. Their mice and keyboards are good - but the mice do tend to die after about 4 -5 years of hard use. At £20 for the one I really like, I don't mind.

Just spent <£300 on a refurb Dell Inspiron for a relative. It's got the same CPU, the same RAM and a bigger HDD than a Macbook. But it has 4 USB ports, HDMI, VGA, S-Video, SD&MMS card reader, Express Card reader, Firewire and TWO headphone sockets so you can listen to something with a friend as well as a separate Mic socket and a larger screen. There is no means by which one can judge an extra £425 for a Macbook justified for day to day home computing.

So - with a £425 premium from Apple - tell me, why do you call them Micro$oft.

Why are YOU so desperate to talk about Microsoft in a Mac forum? I'm talking about Apple here - you're the one with the Microsoft obsession here - how about instead of a childish tirade against Microsoft, you actually comment on my criticisms of Apple. Are they justified, are they wrong? You would far rather tirade against Microsoft than actually discuss Apple. Why?

[mac2x]

Thanks for the reply. It "evens" things out a bit, don't you think? Makes you seem less like a fanboy. ;)

I use the $ because MS has a stranglehold on the market with an OS that at least through Vista, is rubbish for a variety of reasons. :mad:

I'm betting that Dell Inspiron has slower bus speeds though. All the Macs have 1066 MHz buses (don't know about the white MacBook), which Dell to my knowledge only includes on the Latitude notebooks, which are every last bit as expensive as their Mac counterparts.

[djellison]

I use the $ because MS has a stranglehold on the market with an OS that at least through Vista, is rubbish for a variety of reasons. :mad:

I'm betting that Dell Inspiron has slower bus speeds though.

Apple have a stranglehold on the mobile music player market. So what?

BUS SPEEDS - Oh, that's worth the £425 premium. Yeah. :rolleyes: You have GOT to be kidding me.

[bruinsrme]

XPS line has 1066

[mac2x]

Apple have a stranglehold on the mobile music player market. So what?

BUS SPEEDS - Oh, that's worth the £425 premium. Yeah. :rolleyes: You have GOT to be kidding me.

You will notice the difference between an 800 MHz FSB and a 1066 MHz (or 1333 MHz which I believe is becoming more prevalent in desktop processors). Oh, and a 1066 MHz memory bus makes a noticeable difference too.

If Dell provided little things like that in their lower notebooks, you'd have a point. BUT THEY DO NOT. If you actually compare the Dell Latitudes with the Apple MBP's you will find that the prices are pretty much the same because THOSE ACTUALLY HAVE COMPARABLE SPECS. So quit this fallacious bloviation and get the facts straight; compare like things with like. Got it?

As for music players, Apple obviously has good products that people actually want. No one would buy them if they were crappy.

[Maccin475]

So you dented the computer and then expected Apple to pay for the product that you damaged? Really? That is why you are so pissed at Apple....?

And then they fix it and you are still pissed? Really? Wow.

Sony's extended warranty (Vaio's) covers physical damage to the machine as well. Apple is known for making pretty products, which unfortunately don't last very long. PC's aren't up there on reliability either but they're cheaper so people just expect less than stellar service.

[djellison]

You will notice the difference between an 800 MHz FSB and a 1066 MHz ...........


No one would buy them if they were crappy.


Point one - no, you won't. Believe me - you just won't. You might see a memory benchmark change - but real life computing, not a damn thing.

http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/1144/intel_qx6850_quad_core_cpu_1333mhz_fsb/index5.html

http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/1144/intel_qx6850_quad_core_cpu_1333mhz_fsb/index7.html

Demonstrably, no performance improvement that a human could notice.

I'm not after comparing specs anyway. I'm not saying a £300 Inspiron is the same as a £750 Macbook in terms of outright performance (although it would be very similar). What I'm saying is that the £300 is all the computer the average computer user needs. There is no means to justify the extra £450 to Joe Public. You want a 17" Laptop? Nice big screen for browsing, looking at Photos. Excellent £400 machine from Dell - does everything my Dad needs. Is there any means to justify the extra £1450 that Apple want for a 17" laptop for the average computer user?

No. Just no.

Point two..... If no one would buy them if they were crappy - then what does that tell you about Windows?

[NoSmokingBandit]

Point two..... If no one would buy them if they were crappy - then what does that tell you about Windows?

zing!

[mac2x]

XPS line has 1066

You're right, they do nowadays. ;)

[mac2x]

Point one - no, you won't. Believe me - you just won't. You might see a memory benchmark change - but real life computing, not a damn thing.

http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/1144/intel_qx6850_quad_core_cpu_1333mhz_fsb/index5.html

http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/1144/intel_qx6850_quad_core_cpu_1333mhz_fsb/index7.html

Demonstrably, no performance improvement that a human could notice.

Find a benchmark that used Core 2 Duos, and I'll take it more seriously. Those are totally different processors. Bus speed is in fact quite important. I get it that maybe you aren't a power user, but I am and it makes all the difference.

I'm not after comparing specs anyway. I'm not saying a £300 Inspiron is the same as a £750 Macbook in terms of outright performance (although it would be very similar). What I'm saying is that the £300 is all the computer the average computer user needs. There is no means to justify the extra £450 to Joe Public. You want a 17" Laptop? Nice big screen for browsing, looking at Photos. Excellent £400 machine from Dell - does everything my Dad needs. Is there any means to justify the extra £1450 that Apple want for a 17" laptop for the average computer user?

No. Just no.

In case you are curious, I didn't get a 17" MBP simply because of the price, and when I was buying; it wasn't yet a unibody anyway.

Point two..... If no one would buy them if they were crappy - then what does that tell you about Windows?

It just tells me that a huge number of people are running a junk OS. iPods are actually good, if a bit spendy. OTOH, a Windows license isn't cheap either. And iPods work on both Mac and PC since iTunes is available for both. Can MS's Zune do that? No.

If MS would simply write the old garbage out of Windows and force their enterprise customers to come out of the dark ages, I wouldn't have a problem with Windows.

[NoSmokingBandit]

Why are people still arguing with mac2x?

[thejadedmonkey]

So you dented the computer and then expected Apple to pay for the product that you damaged? Really? That is why you are so pissed at Apple....?

And then they fix it and you are still pissed? Really? Wow.

No, I'm pissed that when I first got my mac, which was a $2000 computer, it had dust behind the screen. It also had a semi-operational CD drive, and the latch broke. The man I talked to was very nice, and at the time I wasn't able to part with it for repair. Eventually I was able to live with the problems, but I was told that when I had time to part with it, they would fix it no problem.

After I dented it, they refused to even fix even the documented problems, from the first week of ownership. Also, the lady was a jerk.

So then they fix the problems, but only after arguing with them for what I should have had, under the terms and conditions set forth in Applecare, as well as the agreement I had (which was documented in my account). After that experience, I am mad at them.

I don't mind that they wouldn't fix the dent, and I don't mind that they tried to charge me $1200 to fix it - what angers me is that things that had nothing to do with the dent weren't covered, and how I was yelled at.

For Apple to be losing me after just four years surely isn't a good thing. I think they're resting on their laurels and MS are coming up fast.

I lasted about 4 years too. I don't think that it's 4 years, so much as that Apple has just changed, and their culture of "we're always right" just doesn't work when you're a big boy and your customers have so many opinions.

XPS line has 1066

They don't matter. Back in the day, the G4 had a 133mhz bus while every windows machine had a 333mhz bus, but the G4 was "superior" in every way... at least that's what mac zealots would say. I don't see how you could be complaining about a lower front side bus today, while just a few years ago mac's had anemic FSB's...

[mac2x]

Why are people still arguing with mac2x?
It's so amusing that so many Apple haters hang out here. :) What's the point? You aren't convincing anyone.

[mac2x]

[...]

They don't matter. Back in the day, the G4 had a 133mhz bus while every windows machine had a 333mhz bus, but the G4 was "superior" in every way... at least that's what mac zealots would say. I don't see how you could be complaining about a lower front side bus today, while just a few years ago mac's had anemic FSB's...
Because Macs from years ago are little more than collector's items in the big picture. I never used PPC Macs anyway; I was a PC user until Macs had had Intel processors for a little while.

[NoSmokingBandit]

As for music players, Apple obviously has good products that people actually want. No one would buy them if they were crappy.


Point two..... If no one would buy them if they were crappy - then what does that tell you about Windows?


It just tells me that a huge number of people are running a junk OS

No one would buy them if they were crappy.

*facepalm*

You are quick to call everyone else a hater, but you are just bashing MS all over the place with no logic or reasoning. I dont like Apple as a company. Or as a hardware manufacturer. They do make some great programs though. Call me a hater if you must, but im not going to blindly approve of everything Apple does just because i like Logic.

[mac2x]

The reasoning is simple. The registry and ancient DOS support needs to be written out of Windows. It's old technology that is a the root of the problems with Windows. Congrats if you all have experienced fewer Windows problems than I did, but Unix is better whether it comes in the form of the various flavors of Linux or Mac OS X.

As to not liking companies, remember the Microsoft anti-trust lawsuit? :rolleyes:

Apple certainly isn't perfect (remember the $600 first gen iPhones, that were promptly cut in price a few months later, dropping FireWire from the MacBook [djellison made a good point there], and for me dropping the ExpressCard slot from the 15" MBP), but I don't recall them ever having that level of legal action taken against them.

[G-Force]

I never used PPC Macs anyway; I was a PC user until Macs had had Intel processors for a little while.
Yeah.. already thought so.... It explains the 'Micro$oft' etc. I've noticed that a lot of the switchers have become extreme Apple fanboys and hate EVERYTHING Microsoft makes. This topic is about Apple and not about Microsoft though...

I like Apple, but they have done some stupid like some of the posters said in this topic. The missing FW port on the Unibody MacBook was just plain stupid. Mac OS X isn't anymore what it used to be in my opinion.

[djellison]

The reasoning is simple. The registry and ancient DOS support needs to be written out of Windows. It's old technology that is a the root of the problems with Windows.

And despite that - only a tiny tiny minority of people will ever have heard of, care about, or seen the registry. You're going on and on and on about it like the registry stops anybody achieving anything. It's fine. People browse the web, check their email, get photos of their camera and Skype with their friends and never ever ever know the registry even exists. It doesn't matter.

And you want anti-trust law suits? Go look at the company who made the very processors that brought you to Apple. Seriously - who cares? Apple have had anti-trust law suits as well. Their behaviour with Google regarding Apps is outrageous right now.

There's a fanboy in this thread - oh yes.

[nazuk]

And despite that - only a tiny tiny minority of people will ever have heard of, care about, or seen the registry. You're going on and on and on about it like the registry stops anybody achieving anything. It's fine. People browse the web, check their email, get photos of their camera and Skype with their friends and never ever ever know the registry even exists. It doesn't matter.

And you want anti-trust law suits? Go look at the company who made the very processors that brought you to Apple. Seriously - who cares? Apple have had anti-trust law suits as well. Their behaviour with Google regarding Apps is outrageous right now.

There's a fanboy in this thread - oh yes.

...and there's also djellison that comes out at every opportunity to attack Apple.

Not sure why you bother hanging out in these apple related forums.

Your history of postings make it so obvious.

/await sarcastic response.

[djellison]

Not sure why you bother hanging out in these apple related forums.

I'm a Mac user. Just because I don't go weak at the knees for everything Apple does, I am still a Mac user. Just because I see problems with hardware and software out of Cupertino, I'm STILL a Mac user. I'm also a Windows user.

I want to know why Mac2x is going on and on, at GREAT length, on why Windows is bad. He doesn't use it - why would he care. A big list of real, tangible, actual problems I think Apple have had in the past 2 or so years - and no real comments from the Apple clan.

Clearly the majority of people here think it's OK to charge £70 for a DL-DVI adaptor that doesn't work, or fit a £1000 laptop with a screen you wouldn't see on a £300 laptop.

[iBlue]

Some of us are not so hopelessly dorky and infatuated with apple that we give them unconditional praise. I call 'em like I see 'em. As much as I like apple products and OS X, I have plenty of things I do not like about The Apple Way. It's an opinion and I'll express it if I like, thanks.

[anjinha]

A typical example:

Firewire out of the UBMB.

I complained, bitterly. I was lambasted for being so wrong. Who needs firewire. Steve Jobs told the congregation that no one needed firewire any more. I was a Microsoft fanboy for not agreeing with or liking that design decision.

Seriously? There was nothing but complains about Firewire. If you go find the first Macrumors new articles about it I'll bet you that they'll have a majority of negative rating. Very few people actually agreed with the firewire decision. (Here's one example BTW http://www.macrumors.com/2008/10/17/steve-jobs-on-lack-of-firewire-in-macbooks/)

One of the orig. iPhones biggest problems - MMS. Who needs MMS? We don't need MMS - send an email!! etc etc etc. Typical blinkered fanboys liking whatever Steve gives them, and rejecting anything he doesnt. Two years later, MMS makes an appearance, slowly. And it's celebrated as a great new feature. No it's not. You were telling us 18 months ago that no one NEEDS mms - that it's a waste of time.

Do you go to the iPhone forums often? People complained about the lack of MMS since forever!! Yes, some people said email was better, probably the same people that still say email is better. The people that now are happy with MMS are the same people that ALWAYS wanted MMS. And did you see how many threads came criticizing Apple for taking so long to add MMS?

I agree that Apple isn't perfect, and there's a lot of decisions that they made that I don't agree with. I do like their products though. But you guys act like everyone who likes Apple and defends something they do is just a fanboy. And you usually also ignore all the comments of people actually criticizing Apple and focus on the ones praising them, like the two examples above. But honestly, I've seen more people calling everyone a fanboy lately than actual fanboys.

[NoSmokingBandit]

The reasoning is simple. The registry and ancient DOS support needs to be written out of Windows. It's old technology that is a the root of the problems with Windows. Congrats if you all have experienced fewer Windows problems than I did, but Unix is better whether it comes in the form of the various flavors of Linux or Mac OS X.

You are missing my point, so ill just spell it out for you:

You blatantly contradict yourself in order to take a stab at MS and support Apple.

You say nobody would buy crappy products, yet windows owns 95% of the OS market share, which you counter by saying windows is a terrible os used by a ton of people. A ton of people you just said wouldnt buy something if it is indeed terrible.

[Rodimus Prime]

Do you go to the iPhone forums often? People complained about the lack of MMS since forever!! Yes, some people said email was better, probably the same people that still say email is better. The people that now are happy with MMS are the same people that ALWAYS wanted MMS. And did you see how many threads came criticizing Apple for taking so long to add MMS?

I agree that Apple isn't perfect, and there's a lot of decisions that they made that I don't agree with. I do like their products though. But you guys act like everyone who likes Apple and defends something they do is just a fanboy. And you usually also ignore all the comments of people actually criticizing Apple and focus on the ones praising them, like the two examples above. But honestly, I've seen more people calling everyone a fanboy lately than actual fanboys.

I watch the iPhone forums for the entire time and up until MMS was rumored to go to the iPhone if any one complained about it with in seconds a few people would come screaming about how email was better and MMS was old technology. that needs to be phased out. Tell your friends to do email .... and so on.

It was really kind of sad how blind the followers were.

To many of the blind apple fan boys can not see apple screws up. Apple makes mistake. Any one complains about apple they go off calling them a troll, Microsoft lover, non mac users ect.

[Maccin475]

It's so amusing that so many Apple haters hang out here. :) What's the point? You aren't convincing anyone.

Same could be said for all the Apple evangelists out there.

[mac2x]

You are missing my point, so ill just spell it out for you:

You blatantly contradict yourself in order to take a stab at MS and support Apple.

You say nobody would buy crappy products, yet windows owns 95% of the OS market share, which you counter by saying windows is a terrible os used by a ton of people. A ton of people you just said wouldnt buy something if it is indeed terrible.

It's only true because Apple is the underdog in computer market share. They have to make nice stuff that works to keep their customers happy while hopefully attracting new people. They HAVE to or their already small market share would disappear. MS doesn't have to worry about that because their market is so huge that it truly makes no difference to them. Windows is a rotten OS, made by a company who is so massive that they really can't provide the kind of OS that Apple does, or even something like Ubuntu Linux.

Most people buy Windows (and I was one of them) because it's everywhere and the hardware it typically runs on is very low priced. If it's worth it to you that's great, but it's not worth it to me and that's why I switched to Apple. Apple has satisfied me to a level MS and my old Dell desktop (great customer service though; original LCD went out and they sent me a new one within two days) never did.

I find it hilarious that you people can dish criticism out, but you can't take it. Grow up. :rolleyes: If you don't like a company, don't buy from them. And don't criticize us for our choice at every turn.

[mac2x]

Same could be said for all the Apple evangelists out there.

I'm not trying to convince anyone one way or the other. Make the choice that's best for you, but don't come on here and troll about everything that's wrong with someone else's choice.

[djellison]

someone else's choice.

It's not someone elses choice -it's MY choice. Things I've bought, or have thought of buying. Go back and read the list I posed early in this thread. I they unjustified criticisms?

[Vudoo]

In terms of environment changes, I don't game as much as I used to. Most of the stuff I do these days is web base and I am not so inclined to continuously upgrade my hardware anymore. And that I don't really use as much software that I used too.

What has change for me to get a Mac was Apple moving to the Intel processor and being able to bootcamp into Windows if I needed too.

But honestly price was the big factor. I was able to get a previous generation top of the line MBP for $1600 NIB the week the new unibody came out. The same laptop was selling for $2500 a few days earlier. To me, the value to price ratio was more reasonable to me.

[dmmcintyre3]

I'm getting to the point of just recommending hackintoshes now, instead of apple's overpriced iJunk.

[mac2x]

It's not someone elses choice -it's MY choice. Things I've bought, or have thought of buying. Go back and read the list I posed early in this thread. I they unjustified criticisms?

I read your list, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. In fact I agree on FireWire. That was a dumb decision, and personally I think it's weird that they replaced the uMB with a 13" Pro. Just doesn't seem right. Just put FireWire back on the uMB. :rolleyes:

I do have a few points about your list:

1. I don't need MobileMe, never have, never will so it doesn't affect me.

2. iTunes 9 has been trouble-free for me.

3. I know a lot of people who are thrilled with their iPhones, and have never had problems.

4. I do think it was dumb to put a camera in the iPod Nano. Doesn't that make more sense on the iTouch where sharing options are broader?

5. I haven't switched to Snow Leopard because I think it's dumb to get a new OS immediately after release, thus turning yourself into a guinea pig for bugs. Leopard works just fine and is trouble-free in the 10.5.8 update. I'll probably upgrade, but not till all the bugs have been worked out.

6. I think the MB Air is a cool concept, but better I/O would be very nice. A far superior computer to a netbook if you need an ultraportable computer that actually can run serious apps though.

7. Over-priced is relative. Mac hardware is worth every penny to me. I did buy from a 3rd party Apple reseller so I didn't pay full list price.

Let's just agree to disagree and be done with it. Capische? :)

[soldierblue]

My main issue is that they have pretty awful quality control for a company that tries to pass their stuff off as "premium" and prices it as such.

[mac2x]

Yes, but lemons happen even to the best of them. The horror stories you see on the internet are a tiny percentage of users. Even Steinway makes the occasional lemon piano to name another premium brand.

[daxomni]

I've used all sorts of hardware over the years. With laptops I started with Compaq and then HP and then Acer and then Dell and now Apple. I've had problems with the Dell and I complain about them a lot because I think Dell is overpriced and overrated. I had problems with Acer but never felt the need to complain because the cost was so incredibly low that it just didn't matter to me and I never ran into anyone who thought Acer was God's gift to man the way some folks seem to feel about other brands. Apple isn't nearly as bad as Dell, not by a long shot, but they're even more costly and their fans are even more abrasive so they invite criticism when things don't work out. I don't hold Apple to the same standard as Acer because I'm paying literally four times the cost and thus I'm viewing them with four times the scrutiny. So far my experience with Apple hasn't been terrible but it also hasn't been all that great. The costs for their hardware have outpaced anything else I've purchased for a similar purpose. My current guess is that I'll end up with a Lenovo next and see if they're a better all-around value than Dell or Apple or HP.

[BongoBanger]

The answer to the original question is actually pretty straightforward.

Apple has gotten bigger and is selling its products to new customers who are not part of its established community. As such we're far less likely to smooth over the cracks and, since a lot of us use a variety of platforms, we're not going to put up with unfounded smack talk about other products we use because it implies we're stupid and we're not.

You get bigger, you get a less forgiving public. It happens.

[ob81]

A couple of things

The shift to Intel has made it more simple than ever to compare, apple-to-apple (pun intended) the value of Apple hardware. People try to defend it, but sorry, it's just not defensible. It's over priced. Fact.

on those interim UBMB's. £300 netbooks have better displays.



While I am usually on the fence about Apple and some of the crap that they have been doing for a dollar recently, I have to agree with your post. Apple had some issues when I first started using their products around 2004, and while their hardware was more expensive, I had NO issues with anything. Hardware worked as it should have, and everything was going great. The whole intel shift brought a lot of laziness on their part, and it brought fresh fanboys that came in on the notion that Apple delivered awesome products, and they do, but they are surely a lot more things going bad than before.

These fresh fanboys are trying to keep up the tradition of praising Apple, when blatant crap is done by Apple on a near monthly basis. That outrageous introductory iPhone price started the ball rolling. The whole Macbook to Macbook pro thing was a slap in the face. At least now they lowered the price.

In my opinion, they have grown quite lazy. I don't need bluray in a laptop, but where is my option? I don't need a netbook, but where is my option?

[MacDSmith2]

... yet windows owns 95% of the OS market share, which you counter by saying windows is a terrible os used by a ton of people. A ton of people you just said wouldnt buy something if it is indeed terrible.

You have to understand that PEOPLE don't buy windows. OEM PC makers buy windows and give it to the PEOPLE for free! That's why a ton of people use windows. And windows is junk but who can compete with FREE? That's why Gates got rich. But it's a double edge sword as Microsoft is trapped by those same OEM contracts.

[djellison]

who can compete with FREE?

How much did you pay for the copy of OSX that came with your Mac?

[BongoBanger]

You have to understand that PEOPLE don't buy windows. OEM PC makers buy windows and give it to the PEOPLE for free! That's why a ton of people use windows. And windows is junk but who can compete with FREE? That's why Gates got rich. But it's a double edge sword as Microsoft is trapped by those same OEM contracts.

Really? So is Linux which can easily - especially with Ubuntu - be installed on pretty much any x86 ISA gear.

And yet people still prefer Windows. Sorry, your argument doesn't hold water.

[anjinha]

I watch the iPhone forums for the entire time and up until MMS was rumored to go to the iPhone if any one complained about it with in seconds a few people would come screaming about how email was better and MMS was old technology. that needs to be phased out. Tell your friends to do email .... and so on.

It was really kind of sad how blind the followers were.

To many of the blind apple fan boys can not see apple screws up. Apple makes mistake. Any one complains about apple they go off calling them a troll, Microsoft lover, non mac users ect.

Actually no. There were both people: people who thought email was better (and that still think email is better) and people that wanted MMS (and that now are happy with MMS). Just search for threads with MMS in the title and see how many come up. Not only that, most of them are complaining about the lack of MMS, discussing alternatives to get MMS (SwirlyMMS, modified carrier files, app store apps for MMS...), asking when MMS will come out... This has been one of the major complaints about the iPhone since day 1, along with copy and paste and others.

[KeriJane]

You have to understand that PEOPLE don't buy windows. OEM PC makers buy windows and give it to the PEOPLE for free! That's why a ton of people use windows. And windows is junk but who can compete with FREE? That's why Gates got rich. But it's a double edge sword as Microsoft is trapped by those same OEM contracts.

Hi MacDSmith

Well, that's only part of the story.
Mr. Gates spent an awful lot of time and effort building his empire.
He started out by writing all kinds of computer code. He was an absolute genius at it. Quickly, he realized that people were copying it without paying for it. This got him very upset. He went on to obtain rights to an OS named 86-DOS and went on to dominate and monopolize the micro computer software market.

How?
Well, partly by writing new, original software but also by buying out or destroying his competitors! If he liked your software in the 80's or 90's, he probably made an attempt at buying you out by hook or by crook. Once bought out, your software was quickly assimilated under the MS brand. (ex. FrontPage)
If buying you out failed, he would then attempt to destroy you as a competitor.. one not so funny way would be to make sure that your business application wouldn't run very well on his OS. Other ways would be to hire off your best talent, buy out your suppliers, whatever it took. If you competed with MS in any way, you were TOAST.

Speaking of his OS, he did and continues to practically give away MS Operating Systems to OEM computer manufacturers for very little cost.
Why? So he could dominate the market and make considerable profit on full-price software such as Office. Also, once all competitors are gone the need to compete goes away too..

IBM for one wanted their own OS... First PCDOS, then OS2. THey made the mistake of contracting with MS for it. That ended in tears for IBM.

So here we are in 2009 and MS has decimated and monopolized a once varied and vibrant market.
Only ONE semi-major competitor remains standing: Apple. MS did such a great job of destroying competitors they had to prop Apple up at one point to avoid a monopoly breakup like AT&T went through.

When you buy an Apple product, you are helping to support a company that barely survived the MS plague of monopoly.
When you use Linux or other Open-Source software you likewise use the talents of people that may have or once have had their own companies if not for MS.

Microsoft = The Railroad Tycoon / Robber Baron of the 1980's and 90's



This is ONLY my take on it OK? Yes, I know I'm not 100% right. Or at all if you prefer.
Keri

PS. Their Achilles heel is Piracy! Not having (much) Hardware to sell makes MS completely vulnerable to unpaid-for copying and distribution.

PPS. Apple wisely makes the bulk of their profit from Hardware. Hardware is more difficult and expensive to copy with lower reward for the potential Pirate.

[bruinsrme]

So if apple makes money off of hardware, how did Microsoft almost ruin them?

[KeriJane]

So if apple makes money off of hardware, how did Microsoft almost ruin them?

Really simple.
By dominating the market. Up until very recently, Apple computers would not and could not run Windows.

If it can't run Windows, those millions of people conditioned to use Windows probably won't buy it.

The ability of Intel Macs to run Windows is a very large selling point. The "Safety Net" factor for those unwilling or unable to completely drop MS is probably largely responsible for Apple's recent resurgence.
Even I've got Bad, Evil XP on this Mac Pro just for Legacy's sake!


MS succeeded wildly by the way. I don't dispute that for a second.
I might not like that fact or like MS's business practices or their Software, but they still completely took over a market and successfully destroyed practically all competition.


Mr. Gates is a very smart person.
Unfortunately, (in my insignificant opinion) he went all evil on us.

Just because some good came of it doesn't make it less evil.


Buy an Apple!
or
Build your own and use Linux!

See if you can avoid MS and don't support the Evil Empire,
Keri

[bartzilla]

You have to understand that PEOPLE don't buy windows.

Really? Do you blame aliens then, or should I make sure my cat is never alone with my wallet?

OEM PC makers buy windows and give it to the PEOPLE for free!

No they don't. There's a line charge for it in most places I go to buy PCs from.


That's why a ton of people use windows. And windows is junk but who can compete with FREE? That's why Gates got rich.

Why isn't Linus Torvalds as rich as Bill Gates? Why aren't more people demanding their PC comes with Linux pre-installed instead of Windows?

If windows really was total junk then people wouldn't be able to get real work done on it and it wouldn't have a majority of the market as it does now.
Fact is, it's "good enough" for most people, which isn't the same as "junk". Especially when "good enough" is all they need to do what they got to do.

[bruinsrme]

Really simple.
By dominating the market. Up until very recently, Apple computers would not and could not run Windows.

If it can't run Windows, those millions of people conditioned to use Windows probably won't buy it.

The ability of Intel Macs to run Windows is a very large selling point. The "Safety Net" factor for those unwilling or unable to completely drop MS is probably largely responsible for Apple's recent resurgence.
Even I've got Bad, Evil XP on this Mac Pro just for Legacy's sake!


MS succeeded wildly by the way. I don't dispute that for a second.
I might not like that fact or like MS's business practices or their Software, but they still completely took over a market and successfully destroyed practically all competition.


Mr. Gates is a very smart person.
Unfortunately, (in my insignificant opinion) he went all evil on us.

Just because some good came of it doesn't make it less evil.


Buy an Apple!
or
Build your own and use Linux!

See if you can avoid MS and don't support the Evil Empire,
Keri
Very large selling point for whom? Apple?
So you are banging on Microsoft because their OS couldn't run on a Mac?
Did macs back then support x86 instruction coding? I do not they did. So when they switched to intel chips that decision by apple opened up that possibility, not that microsoft was preventing it through hadware, firmware or software.
Does MS officially support windows running on a mac? Honestly I couldn't tell you.
But you condone Apple for still not allowing PC users to run OSx on their non-apple machine? Why not open up OSx to PC users?

[pdjudd]

Does MS officially support windows running on a mac? Honestly I couldn't tell you.

Well as long as you have a valid license (Full or OEM) and the right version, they would support it. Their licensing has a provision for installing on compatible hardware and software. MS could care less as long as they get their cut.

[djellison]

MS could care less as long as they get their cut.

Could? You mean COULDN'T

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_SqhhJb_P3Kk/Sahs7ZaondI/AAAAAAAAFas/OSSo8CkLjgI/s400/caring+continuum.png

How or why are people getting such a simple turn of phrase utterly wrong?

[edesignuk]

How or why are people getting such a simple turn of phrase utterly wrong?heh, that's baffled me for years too. It's couldn't FFS!

[FakeWozniak]

How or why are people getting such a simple turn of phrase utterly wrong?

heh, that's baffled me for years too. It's couldn't FFS!

Whom made the silly langwidge anyhow? Irregardless, the point is mute. :D

[*LTD*]

What angst?

[Goona]

I find it funny that Windows users call Mac users drones and sheep but yet they use Windows which is on 95 percent of computers.

[belvdr]

Irregardless, the point is mute. :D

The point isn't silent. The point is actually moot. :D

[palebluedot]

If Apple potentially gets hit with an anti-trust suit from the FCC for it's dealings with the App Store and iPhone (two things I think Apple is in the right on as they developed the product) I hope that mac2x apologizes to djelison :D

The fanbois on this forum are really frustrating. As a gamer who converted to MBP and has a bunch of engineer-developer friends... it is hard to justify the Apple tax being worth it these days.

[leekohler]

A couple of things

The shift to Intel has made it more simple than ever to compare, apple-to-apple (pun intended) the value of Apple hardware. People try to defend it, but sorry, it's just not defensible. It's over priced. Fact.

The iPhone. revolutionary? Yup. Flawed? HELL yes.

The Mac Book Air - never has form dominated over function so badly.

Snow Leopard - that's £25 I can't have back - and, hand on heart, I can't tell the damn difference. Indeed, on a 2.2Ghz MBP - it's made it slower - not faster.

Shift to Mobile Me? What a bloody disaster that was.

The treatment of apps-store developers is utterly unforgiveable.

iTunes 9. Bloatier, slower and again, no new features I'm noticing.

iPod Touch...no camera. But they fit one in a damn iPod NANO? What the hell?

Hang on - where did my Firewire port go? That's right - Apple took it out of the Macbook. Then wrote 'Pro' on in crayon, and put the firewire port BACK IN, after telling us all we didn't actually need firewire anyway.

CRAP - there is no other word for it - CRAP screen quality on those interim UBMB's. £300 netbooks have better displays.

DL-DVI adaptor for Mini DP machines. It's £70 to plug your monitor in. and IT DOES NOT WORK.

What's that on the floor? ANOTHER chuck of plastic falling off a plastic Macbook.

Apple have done a lot of things over the past couple of years that are very very worthy of criticism.

I tolerate these because Keynote (the single 'killer app' for OSX for what I do) does one thing, that powerpoint will not. I want ONE laptop. And so it's a Mac because of keynote. That's it. Without it, I would switch back in a second.

But I can't stand the ever increasing volume of Apple fanboys...

Claiming the above problems don't exist
Claiming the above problems are NOT problems becuase Micro$oft (LMFAO I swapped a S for a $ how cool) do the same or worse
Claiming that one OS is 'better' than the other
Lying - there is no other word for it - LYING about competing products, or the abilities and value of Apple products.

So - you have a double whammy effect. Apple doing some very annoying stuff, and the fanboys being exceptionally annoying defending it and going on the offensive against other products.

It's very very very easy to really hate Apple and it's fanboys at the moment.

Agreed on all points.

[ArrowSmith]

There are several points of angst:

* Mac OS X makes Windows look like cheap crap
* Apple is the most profitable company in the tech industry
* Apple already has a bigger net cash pile then MSFT
* Even as nice as the Zune HD is, it's inferior crap compared to the IPod Touch
* Windows 7 is still bloated crap with registry and ancient file system
* Steve Ballmer is a buffoon
* Steve Jobs is CEO of the decade/century/history
* Windows Mobile is DEAD baby, dead
* iPhone has cracked the Japanese market(unthinkable, but true)
* nobody thinks of MSFT as innovative, but 99% think of Apple as so

keep adding more

[thejadedmonkey]

keep adding more
Mac users like ArrowSmith who mistake angst with Jealousy. :rolleyes:

[mac2x]

Mac users like ArrowSmith who mistake angst with Jealousy. :rolleyes:
I don't think that means quite what you intended it to mean. :rolleyes:

[mac2x]

There are several points of angst:

* Mac OS X makes Windows look like cheap crap
* Apple is the most profitable company in the tech industry
* Apple already has a bigger net cash pile then MSFT
* Even as nice as the Zune HD is, it's inferior crap compared to the IPod Touch
* Windows 7 is still bloated crap with registry and ancient file system
* Steve Ballmer is a buffoon
* Steve Jobs is CEO of the decade/century/history
* Windows Mobile is DEAD baby, dead
* iPhone has cracked the Japanese market(unthinkable, but true)
* nobody thinks of MSFT as innovative, but 99% think of Apple as so

keep adding more

Can't speak for all of these (Zune), but I have to agree on Steve Ballmer. :eek: I find it hard to believe that crazy man is anything more than a figurehead. :rolleyes: